Foreigners in Japan.

[musical_onyx]

Um, hello everyone. I'm new to this stuff, and I apologize if is awkward or weird. I personally have some questions about Japan.

-How would a Indian (Southern Asian) that was born and raised in America be treated in Japan?

My cousin and I plan to visit there soon. I am a very self concious person and although I am not saying the japanese are racist, there are always going to first impressions by just looks alone. I would really like an answer to my question. Thank you.

-Onyx

[Mikawa Ossan]

First off, welcome to Jref!

I'll try to help as much as I can, which won't be much. I have known only one person of Indian descent here in Japan, and she was raised in Canada. I don't know of any problems that she ever had due to her ethnicity.

I've also known one man from Pakistan (included for reasons of similar skin tone). He was marriend to a Japanese woman, but for some reason they get divorced. He soon remarried with a white American woman. I knew his second wife better than I knew him, but she never mentioned any problems that he had because of his ethnicity in Japan. Ironically, she told me that when they went to America to visit her family, they encountered huge amounts of blatant racism.

[Mars Man]

Namaste onyx san, and welcome to JREF !

There is no need to worry at all. At our university we have a chap from Sri Lanka and although he may not be known by all the students, he has a good number of friends, has helped in bringing a Sri Lankan classical dance troupe here to Matsumoto, in order to raise some funds to help those devastated by the tsunami.

There are a fair number of Pakistani people around, one of my acquantances is married to a Japanese girl. So, you'll have no greater a problem than you would in just about any country. Don't sweat it. bilkool takulifu nahin hai (it's no problem at all)

[Glenski]

onyx,
If you are coming as a tourist, no problem.
If you are coming to study or work, please let us know.

[musical_onyx]

onyx,
If you are coming as a tourist, no problem.
If you are coming to study or work, please let us know.

I personally plan on staying for a couple of weeks although my cousin is looking to live there.

[gaijinalways]

I would disagree with the other posters. Unforunately (or fortunately) , the way people will express dislike for your appearance will vary. In Japan it will often be a case of actions speaking louder than words.

Generally speaking, visiting anywhere will generally be easier than living there.

[Glenski]

What does your cousin plan to do while living here? Study (student visa or cultural visa) or work (work visa)?

[JMoon]

This is an odd coincidence, but I am also of East Indian Decent, and grew up in NY.
I was wondering the same thing. A few friends who visited had no problem, but no one has lived there.

I was thinking about staying there for a little while if I got into one of those JET/Teaching programs, but I am starting hear a lot of negative things recently...

At the very least, I will continue to learn Japanese (It may come useful, and I want to be able to watching anime and play Jrpgs). I plan to visit next year, but I feel like visiting and living would be totally different.

I will worry about it later.

[musical_onyx]

What does your cousin plan to do while living here? Study (student visa or cultural visa) or work (work visa)?

Work although I don't know what should would like to do.

[Glenski]

Well, onyx, I'll be glad to answer any work-related questions (as would others here), should they be asked.

If you two were born and raised in the US, I'd suggest that you stop thinking of yourselves as East Indian (or Indian-American, if that hyphenated moniker even exists). You would be American, period. We Americans come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. Japanese know that, even though they tend to think of us as Causasians first, and a few Blacks second.

[pipokun]

I don't know when you will come here, but enjoy your trip and I will be pleased to hear your story, positive and/or negative ones.
And be sure to find a sponsor before your cousin works like the increased Indian expats do in Japan.

GIIS Yokohama (http://www.globalindian.org.sg/Default.aspx?alias=www.globalindian.org.sg/jp-yokohama) is the third international schools mainly targeting those Indian expat families.

An Asian American guy who started a similar thread is probably traveling around Japan now.
I believe his honesty will give us the feedback here.

[shirimaru]

a friend emailed me a very disturbing article and i would like to know the thoughts of japanese people about it. Here's an excerpt of that article:

"...Are they really Asian? Well we've come to accept the fact the Filipinos come from a part of the world known as South East Asia. But the term "Asia" is used in the wrong way. You may notice that contemporary Filipino Americans try very hard to associate ate themselves with groups that we know as Asian. I cannot count the number of times I have seen a 'Third World' Filipino try to connect themselves to the Chinese or Japanese people. There is no connection and here's why. The Philippines is a Third World country. Nothing respectable has EVER been created by Filipino people during our entire human history. Young Filipino men in America have become obsessed with "import racing". They have an enormously perverted affection for Japanese cars. It's a common phenomenon. In their minds, these Filipinos somehow believe that they are Asian and that it somehow connects them to Japanese people and Japanese cars. They often take credit for the ingenuity of Japanese people and say how it's an "Asian thing". This term..."Asian thing" derived directly from African American slang "blackthang". "It's a black thang." "It's an Asian thang." You can see the connection. It's even funnier that, in Japan, Filipinos are heavily discriminated against. The only Filipinos that can live successfully in Japan are the Filipino prostitutes. But that's the case for most Filipino people no matter where they live in the world. Now we've come down to this fact...and it is a fact..."

[tokapi]

I have frequent many Asian-oriented English language forums,only two Asian nationalities stood out for having extreme unhealthy obsession of associating themselves to Chinese & Japanese.

Viets > Chinese
peninsular NE Asian > Japanese

Filipino people are definitely ethnically Asians,but they're most un-Asian among Asian folks because of heavy influence of Spanish culture.

[diceke]

a friend emailed me a very disturbing article and i would like to know the thoughts of japanese people about it. Here's an excerpt of that article:

It's just a hoax article. :okashii:

See:
http://web.archive.org/web/20011003230748/http://www.artbell.com/filipino.html

[KillerKyle17]

Do people really have problems in Japan due to their ethnicity?

[Glenski]

Do people really have problems in Japan due to their ethnicity?
Yes, some do indeed! Read www.debito.org for some of the news.

[caster51]

Do people really have problems in Japan due to their ethnicity?

of couese, Japan is not an exception
It is not because of their ethnicity.

debito is an activist who is unknown in Japan . he is living for this

[pipokun]

An activist like debito can even be naturalized.
To be naturalized or to be a permanent resident like Glenski, it is up to your choice.

musical_onyx, how soon you will be here?

[musical_onyx]

An activist like debito can even be naturalized.
To be naturalized or to be a permanent resident like Glenski, it is up to your choice.
musical_onyx, how soon you will be here?

I'm pretty sure that we will be visiting Japan in late July. The main reason I'm going is because of my cousin, so if she has any problems and is unable to go, I wouldn't.

[kireikoori]

"In every nationality exists a nationalist"

[Zirdante]

There is a finnish guy working as a politician in japan. I don't remember his name though. There was an article about him a few years back..

And that "will people have problems due to their ethinicty." Of course, to some extent. Even here in Finland, some "true whites" might even spit on the ground if they see a black person. And statements like "go back to your home country, damn refugee" and others might be very open minded.

So stuff like this happens all around the world, not just in Japan. (I'm half Moroccan)

There are stereotypes as well, for example in Finland, we have this subclass of people from Romania and they are often labeled as thieves. Even I have to agree, I quite despise them.. People call them "manne" its a rude term, like "nigger".

If you ever see a group of them at night, you most likely will be harassed with knives and robbed, well atleast that is what I have been told.

Prejudices are hard to break, so if for example Philippians going to Japan, you just have to show them that you are a good person.

[Derfel]

Screw prejudices, we're all the same, its the soul that matte... what am I talking about? Its the money. :D

[Glenski]

of couese, Japan is not an exception
It is not because of their ethnicity.Oh, really, caster? Then could you please explain why there is such discrimination in Japan?

debito is an activist who is unknown in Japan . he is living for thisYes, this is Debito's crusade (for lack of a better word), but he is not unknown in Japan.

There is a finnish guy working as a politician in japan. I don't remember his name though. There was an article about him a few years back..He is a naturalized Japanese citizen (from 20 years back, no less). You can't be a politician like him without that change. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1809104.stm

[kireikoori]

Arudo Debito is probably doing a disservice to us foreigners because by being an activist and complaining about Japan he's greatly disturbing the harmony in Japanese society. And for this he brings shame upon all foreigners.

[Glenski]

kireikoori,
Your profile says you have been in Japan less than a month, and that you currently reside in the USA. What do you even know about Debito's sucesses and "disservice"?

BTW, the "harmony" here needs some disturbing in terms of getting Japan to accept its place in the world, especially the world of human rights. Signing an international treaty against discrimination over a decade ago, yet doing NOTHING to enforce that, is a pitiful way for Japan to say it is part of the modern world.

[kireikoori]

especially the world of human rights
This is a Western concept. Japanese believe in the group and don't have concepts of fighting for your rights or whatever.

There is no "me, me, me, I have rights" attitude, it's about we. Just as Ruth Benedict said in her book The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. And she never even set foot in Japan.

Fighting for your rights in Japan breaks wa and therefor Arudo Debito not only brings shame to himself, but to all foreigners.

You're bringing your Western perspective to this.

[Chidoriashi]

kireikoori> There is truth in what you say, but you must remember that those ideas are in the context of Japanese dealing with other Japanese. Though naturalized Debito is a Westerner and therefore, inherently brings a Western perspective. Just as all Westerners in Japan do. So what I am saying is Westerners and other gaijin generally do not fit into the "wa" in the first place. Thus technically we disrupt the "wa" just by being here. And the fact is, this is Debito's country now, and he has every right to criticize its policies, just like any other citizen does. Thus, Japan has already voluntarily accepted him disrupting the "wa" simply by allowing him to become a Japanese citizen.
And by the way. from what I have seen when it comes to politics in Japan, there is anything but "wa" present.

[pipokun]

...
Signing an international treaty against discrimination over a decade ago, yet doing NOTHING to enforce that, is a pitiful way for Japan to say it is part of the modern world.

人権擁護法案
市民の言動まで規制する危険
http://www.jcp.or.jp/akahata/aik4/2005-03-17/02_01.html

At least, it is wrong or just your (intentional?) ignorance to say "doing nothing".
Your next step would be to consider why many, even Japan Communist Party, have opposed the something.

Back to the topic
musical_onyx, what your cousin are planning to do in Japan? Does she already get her sponsor and working visa?

[Glenski]

This is a Western concept.Totally wrong! It is an international concept, as espoused by the United Nations.

Japanese believe in the group and don't have concepts of fighting for your rights or whatever.Again, wrong. They are slow to coming to this realization, but it is not unheard of. Come here and find out instead of reading such dated books as Chrysanthemum and the Sword.

At least, it is wrong or just your (intentional?) ignorance to say "doing nothing".
Your next step would be to consider why many, even Japan Communist Party, have opposed the something.Oh, I feel I know full well why Japan refuses to enact any laws to fight discrimination. The government itself said that it is because such laws could not be enforced. That is a very juvenile and selfish attitude from a country with the second largest economy. The lawmakers in Japan are an inbred crowd (many have family members who were in the Diet before them), and they are known for their ancient, rigid, patriarchal thinking of old. Signing the treaty was just for image. It's like Japan wanting a seat on the UN Security Council, yet doing little to nothing except spending money on various charitable things instead of DOING something like the other countries. Image only.

How about you, pipokun? What is your take on the reason Japan signed an international treaty against discrimination a dozen years ago, yet has not put out any laws to support that declaration?

[caster51]

An activist like debito can even be naturalized.
To be naturalized or to be a permanent resident like Glenski, it is up to your choice

Btw
石平 became a Japanese citizen
http://chomon-ryojiro.iza.ne.jp/blog/entry/487242/
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%9F%B3%E5%B9%B3_%28%E8%A9%95%E8%AB%96%E5%AE%B6% 29

He complained about the procedure of that.
Japan is lacked about the national focus.
It is a natural conclusion for me because
I have adored to wonderful of the Japanese culture and ppls

First of all, I went to Ise Jingu Shrine to report it to amaterasu
This was an important rite of passage.
There is another one reason why I visited to a shrine
I was never asked the meaning of becoming the Japanese citizen
It was only asked a steady income ,previous offense and zainichi years
An important question that they should ask those why do you want to become a Japanese or what do you think of imperial household and the traditional culture ...............There is no important question that they should ask those who apply for the foreigner naturalization at all.

There is not Kimigayo.
There is not the Japanese flag.
There was not the ceremony to promise the loyalty to Japan, too.
I felt it like joining the consumption association somewhere or the credit card

Where is dignity as the Japan nation?
Japan is lacked about the national focus.
Only Japan lacks though it is the most important one for a country
all over the world .
However, it doesn't seem to be good
How should Japan and the Japanese people regain an important soul as an important national focus and the race?

I of the new face person want also to think seriously as a Japanese.

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/world/china/080501/chn0805011641008-n1.htm
Japan needs ppl like him:p

[tokapi]

deleted post,wordings discriminatory to specific Asian group & gender.

[tokapi]

Btw .. 石平 became a Japanese citizen

http://chomon-ryojiro.iza.ne.jp/blog/entry/487242/




Ahem ... old news

Historically,Chinese have always been part of Japan's 帰化人 population :blush:

[dreamer]

Consider Japanese have compulsive attitude towards cleanliness,I always wonder why local folks would married Chinese people.
I have personally befriended several Taiwanese,those women are extremely filthy and have no basic concept of cleanliness.Home microwaves & refrigerators stinky and dirtied.
Oh,one neighbor's daughter inlaw have lived and worked in Nagoya for several years and can speak fluent conversational Japanese.She too is one filthy person :p

Now this is what I call stereotyping... be careful because you might offend some people around.

As for chinese people being considered part of the naturalized population...err...you'd better not say that out loud in China if you value your life :D

[Skullcrushergurl]

Well this sucks because I'm black and I've wondered before how the Japanese would react to a gaikokujin. But Japanese-only signs? That's f-ing ridiculous! I thought that Japan would be taking a step forward. If I see one of those signs I'm going to take it and step on it! What's even more mind-boggling is the fact that english was used to make the signs.

[Tatsumaki]

My my it'll probably seem suspicious for me to post after Aneki, but then again do lans have the same IP.

Er that was a rant, getting on subject I guess I shouldn't have found discrimination a surprise but I did. I for one am black, and I was hoping to move to Japan to live permanantly.

Would that prove a problem, not just because I'm black but for any ethinicity in general?

[Glenski]

I for one am black, and I was hoping to move to Japan to live permanantly.
Would that prove a problem, not just because I'm black but for any ethinicity in general?
Let's just stick to your own situation.

Generally speaking, no. There are blacks here living and working in harmony with no racial problems toward them (as blacks, specifically, anyway). I have a good friend who is black, married to a Japanese woman and has 2 kids, and he has been here 15 years with no problems at all.

The ONLY time being black was an issue was when they honeymooned in Okinawa. He has very short hair, and a restaurant owner mistook him for one of the military types stationed there. That means he didn't want to serve my friend, but that was cleared up easily enough, and things were cool.

As for other ethnicities/races, yes, there may be problems depending in where one chooses to live.

[Tatsumaki]

Let's just stick to your own situation.
Generally speaking, no. There are blacks here living and working in harmony with no racial problems toward them (as blacks, specifically, anyway). I have a good friend who is black, married to a Japanese woman and has 2 kids, and he has been here 15 years with no problems at all.
The ONLY time being black was an issue was when they honeymooned in Okinawa. He has very short hair, and a restaurant owner mistook him for one of the military types stationed there. That means he didn't want to serve my friend, but that was cleared up easily enough, and things were cool.
As for other ethnicities/races, yes, there may be problems depending in where one chooses to live.
Ah that's more than a relieving to know. Thanks for that.

[tokapi]

As for other ethnicities/races, yes, there may be problems depending in where one chooses to live.



Same as in the USA and elsewhere ... :wave:

[pipokun]

Well this sucks because I'm black and I've wondered before how the Japanese would react to a gaikokujin. But Japanese-only signs? That's f-ing ridiculous! I thought that Japan would be taking a step forward. If I see one of those signs I'm going to take it and step on it! What's even more mind-boggling is the fact that english was used to make the signs.

Yes, it is ridiculous, but I hope you should also remember what African American football game fans would react when a fanatic J soccer fan yelled disgusting words to them in your country like the guy who wore an American football, not soccer, shirt did in Shibuya a few year ago.
Fortunately, the fanatic soccer fans tried to shake hands with him for friendship there.
Maybe it was because　they did not understand his language, "F**KING J*PS", and they were fully aware that it had been a miracle if the Japanese team would have beaten the Brazilian team, though.

[Taiko666]

This is a Western concept. Japanese believe in the group and don't have concepts of fighting for your rights or whatever.
There is no "me, me, me, I have rights" attitude, it's about we. Just as Ruth Benedict said in her book The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. And she never even set foot in Japan.

Fighting for your rights in Japan breaks wa and therefor Arudo Debito not only brings shame to himself, but to all foreigners.
You're bringing your Western perspective to this.

Do you think the Japanese who fought for their rights over the Minamata poising scandal brought shame on themselves?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_disease

How about the Burakumins' struggle for their rights to be treated treated as decent human beings? Shameful?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan

And what of the campaign in Japan for women to have equal pay/opportunites with men? Shaming themselves and all women?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Japanese_women's_rights_activists

But even if the idea of wa has some relevance, consider this. In the context of the world, or the UN, of which Japan is a member, the 'we' you talk of is 'the world'. Japan's behaviour in this context has seldom been wa.

[Taiko666]

Yes, it is ridiculous, but I hope you should also remember what African American football game fans would react when a fanatic J soccer fan yelled disgusting words to them in your country like the guy who wore an American football, not soccer, shirt did in Shibuya a few year ago.
Fortunately, the fanatic soccer fans tried to shake hands with him for friendship there.
Maybe it was because　they did not understand his language, "F**KING J*PS", and they were fully aware that it had been a miracle if the Japanese team would have beaten the Brazilian team, though.

In most developed counties, laws exist to deal with this sort of racism ('no foreigner' signs and racist t-shirts.)

Sadly this is not the case in Japan, and that's the only difference.

[pipokun]

In most developed counties, laws exist to deal with this sort of racism ('no foreigner' signs and racist t-shirts.)
Sadly this is not the case in Japan, and that's the only difference.

What about the poster, "no swearing", on the street?
Maybe it was just an isolated example only applied to England.

I should have taken the photo, but something like "engrish thread" is not my taste. And I admit that I took a bit time before I came to know the word was not the meaning, "to promise something very solemnly".

A long, long way to go before I can see the poster here.

[MMM]

Well this sucks because I'm black and I've wondered before how the Japanese would react to a gaikokujin. But Japanese-only signs? That's f-ing ridiculous! I thought that Japan would be taking a step forward. If I see one of those signs I'm going to take it and step on it! What's even more mind-boggling is the fact that english was used to make the signs.

After living over three years in Japan and exploring all kinds of places, I only saw a "Japanese only" sign one time, and that was on a pink salon, or ***** house. Don't believe the hype.

In most developed counties, laws exist to deal with this sort of racism ('no foreigner' signs and racist t-shirts.)
Sadly this is not the case in Japan, and that's the only difference.

How about the court-case in Hokkaido a few years back. If I remember correctly, the court ruled against the public bath that banned foreigners (even though the drunk Russians were driving away business).

[shirimaru]

I think it would be best not to make generalizations. Maybe there are people in Japan who discriminate, then again, maybe there aren't. Better get to know each individual first before making your mind up about them based simply on where they come from. Diversity exists even in a small group of friends, more so in a nation. People are becoming more and more accultured to each other now more than before. Let's just be open to other cultures, immerse ourselves in them to gain understanding, and maybe even adapt the good we see in them. What do you guys think?

[pipokun]

...
and maybe even adapt the good we see in them. What do you guys think?
I personally want to know the travel/living reports, good or bad, from the people who starts threads like this one.

I bet 96% Japanese would not agree if you use the English word, xenophobia, to describe Japan like BBC does below.
Xenophobia
Migrants tell of mob attacks on the streets of South Africa
The rest 4% is a sort of people who always disagree everything in his/her life in Japan or else.

[JapanAlex]

not sure if this actually sticks to the thread tite but hayho

i was stopped by policemen checking bikes just because I am foreign - it was blatently obvious

they then proceeded to be the most rude police officers I have ever met

[pipokun]

not sure if this actually sticks to the thread tite but hayho


-How would a Indian (Southern Asian) that was born and raised in America be treated in Japan?
Obviously not.

It is better to start you own thread, and it is an idea to tell us where/when/what time you met the rude cops.

[JapanAlex]

i don't really want to start a whole thread about it but thank you so much for caring about the board maintance!

obviously not.

how rude

[Mars Man]

I would like to tack on this temporary moderating post here:

For those who have not yet done so, I'd like to take this moment to suggest that this information regarding Off Topic/On Topic (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37881) be given a good looking over.

The title of this thread is Foreigners in Japan. The question posed in the OP falls under that catagory of discussion. To that degree the reporting of a case wherein one feels or reasons that a degree of discrimination has occurred due to being a foreigner, it will fit herein.

However, simply a personal, historical report alone, should be avoided, and reasoning on why such an understanding (being descriminated against due to being non-Japanese) has been reached; counter arguments may persue.

[MMM]

not sure if this actually sticks to the thread tite but hayho
i was stopped by policemen checking bikes just because I am foreign - it was blatently obvious
they then proceeded to be the most rude police officers I have ever met

What happened? What did they say to make you think it was because you non-Japanese?

[JapanAlex]

well there were many other Japanese people going past on bikes - non were stopped - and the ones who were stopped were spoken to and dealt with in a polite fashion

they obviously stopped me right in my tracks - in fact they jumped in front of me; I thought I was gonna run um down lol

it's just retarded - now I know how minorities feel *hugable bear sigh*

[MMM]

well there were many other Japanese people going past on bikes - non were stopped - and the ones who were stopped were spoken to and dealt with in a polite fashion

they obviously stopped me right in my tracks - in fact they jumped in front of me; I thought I was gonna run um down lol

it's just retarded - now I know how minorities feel *hugable bear sigh*

I guess I don't really understand the situation.

But after a couple question mark incidents in Japan I had convinced myself, as a white man, I knew how minorities felt. But it wasn't long after that I realized that being a minority in Japan (as a white guy) and being a minority in America (say, as an Asian guy) were two very different experiences, and even though I was technically a minority living in Japan, my experience could was not mirrored in the Civil Rights Movement. I really didn't have that much to overcome, and for the most part, I was given a free pass on things I knew better on, but used my whiteness to get a free pass on.

So yes, now you know how minorities feel...in Japan.

[ASHIKAGA]

I know this is a thread about being a foreigner in Japan but I would like to offer a different perspective.

During my 20 year stay in the US, I experienced occasional discriminations. However, that never made me judge the nation as a whole. Even within the community in which I lived, I got to meet and get to know a lot of people with different views / life experiences. Sure, some of them had biased opinions about foreigners/Asians or certain groups of people, and while I DID get upset when faced with unfair treatments because of my race, I was able to at least TRY to understand where they were coming from.

From my experience, biases are rarely rational but always emotional.
You get assaulted by a person/s of a certain ethnic background. You get treated poorly by a bank in a certain country. You get stopped by a police officer for no reason in a certain country. Your loved one is killed in a terrorist attack by person/s of certain ethnicity. I have experienced them all. Yet I refuse to say that all African Americans are violent, all Banks in the US discriminate based on your race, all police officers in the US are extremely rude to Asian people and all the people of the middle eastern descent are terrorists although there ARE some African Americans who beat you and rob you, there ARE some banks in the US that change their attitude the moment they detect an accent in your speech, there ARE some police officers who treat you very rudely and there ARE terrorists from the middle eastern countries who murder your friend.

I would hate to be judged by people that I don't know for some actions taken by someone who just happens to share the same nationality/background with me, so I don't.

OK, it sounded like an essay written by a fifth grader but that is how I feel about the issue being talked about in this thread.

To admins, I am sorry to go OFF topic after being asked not to. Please indulge me just this once. Thank you.

[MMM]

Some things are frustrating, in a very general sense, but I never applied that to all people.

Let's put it this way. For every "I just got dissed as a honkus" experience I had, there were twenty "Glad to be a honkus" experiences that more than made up.

[JapanAlex]

there is such thing as atmosphere though... right?

[MMM]

there is such thing as atmosphere though... right?

Like I said, I don't really understand the situation (were you riding your bike in a place you weren't supposed to?)

I got a tongue-lashing from a cop in Japan once. I parked my bike at a fellow teacher's house so he could drive the two of us to some party. When we got back my bike was gone. After a short investigation we found out his dumba$$ wife had called the cops to remove the bike which was parked in her driveway. We went to the police station to retrieve the bike and the policeman there decided today was the day to yell at me about illegal parking of my bike (which wasn't illegally parked, the guy's wife was an idiot, or maybe a little psycho, as I am pretty sure she knew it was my bicycle when she called them). So the cop used me as his verbal punching bag for 30 seconds.

Never did it occur to me that what was happening was racism or that I got a tonge-lashing because I was white.

[magevampjoe]

You say that you were discriminated against. However, when you were stopped, I bet that you looked around and saw that the Police were being polite to the Japanese. And because you saw this, you probably changed your body language because you thought that you were being picked out for being foreign. This would have given them reason to think that you are hiding something so then they would stop being polite to you.

Or they really are just racists.

From what I have read on the internet, it seems that there is just a big hype about the racism of the Japanese, when in reality there is simply a small percentage that are a-holes. Just like in any country.

I think that people go over the top about discrimination especially when a country has been in the news for an extended period of time. (For example, Japan and the whaling issue). Because a country is portrayed as bad for one thing, 'reports' pop up all over the place, and are simply very exagerrated truths.

MMM, I doubt that you were subject to racism. No offence to black people in the following bit, as it is the MINORITY that act like this:
I had a fight with a black guy last year at school. He started on me, so I beat him down. Obviously, there was a lot of shouting, and I said 'f-ing t**t'. He then used this against me by turning it into 'black t**t'. I hate racists, and I was fighting, to me, a peer, not a black guy. But my point is, he thought, as the only black guy in our school, that I was fighting him because he was black. You, MMM, were probably subject to a cop who was having a bad day, or was annoyed at having to deal with such a petty stupid thing. But because you are a foreigner and have heard about racism, you automatically though it was 'because I was white', and chances are, it wasn't. As someone else (I think pipokun) said in this thread earlier, it is only about 4% of the population who are really really racist.

Anyway, just everyone stop thinking such bad things about the Japanese. Not all of them are bad, and I bet you aren't perfect either. Is it bad to say something to someone who is a different race, but OK to say mean things to kids or your friends? The world has gone to hell.
Jaa, Later

Joe

PS: To a mod, you may as well split this topic now... it has changed very much so split it so people don't have to apologize for going off topic every post. Of course, you understand this.

Thanks for reading my opinion on this matter, although I might not read the replies; exams exams exams :@

[Mikawa Ossan]

PS: To a mod, you may as well split this topic now... it has changed very much so split it so people don't have to apologize for going off topic every post. Of course, you understand this.
Oh yes, this thread has good far off-topic from the original OP, but Mars Man has already addressed this issue on this particular thread. Thanks for the heads up, though!
I would like to tack on this temporary moderating post here:
For those who have not yet done so, I'd like to take this moment to suggest that this information regarding Off Topic/On Topic (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37881) be given a good looking over.
The title of this thread is Foreigners in Japan. The question posed in the OP falls under that catagory of discussion. To that degree the reporting of a case wherein one feels or reasons that a degree of discrimination has occurred due to being a foreigner, it will fit herein.
However, simply a personal, historical report alone, should be avoided, and reasoning on why such an understanding (being descriminated against due to being non-Japanese) has been reached; counter arguments may persue.

[MMM]

MMM, I doubt that you were subject to racism.

You, MMM, were probably subject to a cop who was having a bad day, or was annoyed at having to deal with such a petty stupid thing. But because you are a foreigner and have heard about racism, you automatically though it was 'because I was white', and chances are, it wasn't.

Read my post again, friend. Especially the last line.


Never did it occur to me that what was happening was racism or that I got a tonge-lashing because I was white.

[magevampjoe]

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you had written. My exams made me read it;
Never did it occur to me(at the time) that what was happening was racism or that I got a tonge-lashing because I was white.

I am sorry for getting you wrong :p

Forgiven?

[MMM]

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you had written. My exams made me read it;
Never did it occur to me(at the time) that what was happening was racism or that I got a tonge-lashing because I was white.
I am sorry for getting you wrong :p
Forgiven?

No need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure my meaning is clear.

[Chidoriashi]

I have had probably a total of 5 encounters with the police in my 4 years in Japan. 2 times they were just telling me to put my light on. 2 times they stopped me to check that I was legal. Kind of annoying (of course), but I was not in a hurry at the time and they were both very polite, even chummy with me. And the last time I was stopped it was for riding niketsu (2 people on one bike) with my GF, and even then they were still polite, and I just played dumb like I didn't know it was illegal and they let me go and said don't do that anymore.

As ASHIKAGA stated very thoughtfully earlier not everybody (or even most) people from a particular race or country live up to their stereotypes most of the time. Have I encountered people treating me different or bad cause I am not Japanese, of course. But those experiences are far out weighed by all the good Japanese people I have met. I think for some people bad experiences leave a greater impact (unfortunately). So many times peoples perception about certain experiences gets very skewed.

[caster51]

even Japanese,police questioning is done by them.
I have been done it twice in a day.
it is not only foreigner privilege as persecution complex

[tokapi]

From what I have read on the internet, it seems that there is just a big hype about the racism of the Japanese, when in reality there is simply a small percentage that are a-holes. Just like in any country.






Exactly,every country has a few natives are unfriendly to " foreign " people.

[PrototypeModel]

I think that one major issue that people from this country is that they sometimes have this magical image of Japan as some sort of promised land filled with oppurtunity, as was the US many years ago. The truth is that no matter where you go, you will find some form of discrimination. You really shouldn't have to worry about it unless i becomes some sort of witch hunt which I doubt will happen. Debito's site should only be used as a trigger to do research on the extent of discrimination, and should not be immediately taken as 100% fact.

[Pachipro]

it's just retarded - now I know how minorities feel *hugable bear sigh*
It's sometimes humorous when people who have never been discriminated against suddenly find themselves in a foreign country expecting to be treated as they were in their own home. There seems to be a light that sometimes goes on saying, Now I know how minorities (in my own country) feel. Welcome to the world of being a foreigner in not only Japan, but any country for that matter and profiling.

pro-fil-ing, noun,
the use of specific characteristics, as race or age, to make generalizations about a person, as whether he or she may be engaged in illegal activity.


When certain "profiling" does arise in Japan from the local police, real estate agents, shops, etc., they immediately scream "racism" and think they were selected or refused service, solely based on their race. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't, but it just goes to show how little some people (not you per se) understand of the country and culture they choose to live in. As was mentioned above also, it happens in all foreign countries and is something one learns to live with and expect.

Profiling probably goes on more in the states than in Japan these days where police need not produce a search warrant or need probable cause to stop someone on the interstates and search their entire car at the side of the road with a drug dog. And you know what? More often than not they find drugs or that they had a warrant against them, or the car is stolen, etc.

When one is innocent, it can be easily understood why that particular person feels racism/discrimination towards them. If they understood just why certain people are stopped they perhaps would then understand why they were singled out. It happens and always will.

Don't think you are alone JapanAlex. Most of us have gone down the same path you are now going down and felt, at first, much the way you do. Understanding and acceptance of the culture takes time and many find they cannot understand or accept it.

However, blatent racism or discrimination is not to be condoned by any foreigner in any country, but foreigners will always be stopped on their bicycles. They always have and most certainly always will. Remember, it is profiling.

As "caster51" pointed out above, even the Japanese get stopped from time to time on their bicycles and I'm sure they too are profiled based on looks, age, etc.

[Taiko666]

When certain "profiling" does arise in Japan from the local police, real estate agents, shops, etc., they immediately scream "racism" and think they were selected or refused service, solely based on their race. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't, but it just goes to show how little some people (not you per se) understand of the country and culture they choose to live in. As was mentioned above also, it happens in all foreign countries and is something one learns to live with and expect

Not sure where you're going with this, Pachipro. It's obvious that in many cases people are selected or refused 'solely based on their race.' And that's racism. It's not the victim's fault if they didn't understand this aspect of Japanese culture (ie acceptable racism.) And while it certainly does happen in other countries too, in those countries it's quite rightly illegal.

As "caster51" pointed out above, even the Japanese get stopped from time to time on their bicycles and I'm sure they too are profiled based on looks, age, etc.
Of course they do. Because discrimination of this type (looks, age, sex, race etc) is not illegal in Japan (merely 'unconstitutional') and that's the crux of the matter.

It's sometimes humorous when people who have never been discriminated against suddenly find themselves in a foreign country expecting to be treated as they were in their own home. There seems to be a light that sometimes goes on saying, Now I know how minorities (in my own country) feel. Welcome to the world of being a foreigner in not only Japan, but any country for that matter and profiling.

I've been verbally abused because of my nationality after merely opening my mouth and speaking in an English accent in New York ("f.....g limey"), Ireland ("dirty tan"), and even Wales (refused service at a fish and chip shop.) I've been abused for speaking in a London accent in northern England ("cockney w&nker!"). One has to accept that there are individual bigots just about everywhere, and not let it get you down. (Though I've never been verbally abused this way by a Japanese :-))

But that doesn't make the legal, commonplace (eg estate agents) discrimination in Japan any less surprising.

[pipokun]

...
Of course they do. Because discrimination of this type (looks, age, sex, race etc) is not illegal in Japan (merely 'unconstitutional') and that's the crux of the matter.
...
It is simply because the police check is quite legal, (not 100% legal), here.
I've also gone through the car/bike checks, but luckily enough, I've never stopped by a cop when I am a pedestrian.

And I read somewhere that it was really controversial in the UK if the police should enforce the similar scheme, stop/check/search.
I don't know about the law on knife, but I bet 99.99% knife kids in the UK will be arrested if they had the same knife law of Japan. At least, they will have to chat with a cop for a good reason why they carry a Victorinox Swiss Army with a small blade.

[Pachipro]

Not sure where you're going with this, Pachipro. It's obvious that in many cases people are selected or refused 'solely based on their race.' And that's racism. It's not the victim's fault if they didn't understand this aspect of Japanese culture (ie acceptable racism.) And while it certainly does happen in other countries too, in those countries it's quite rightly illegal.

I appreciate your viewpoint Taiko and accept it.

Of course they are refused service, checked by police, etc. based SOLELY on race. My point was to point out to those that have never experienced it before that it Does happen and to not be surprised when it does occur for, like myself, having never received the blunt end of racism/discrimination before going to Japan, I was indeed shocked and kind of angry at first, but I soon learned why and came to expect it. And when it did happen afterwards I was not angry as it is impossible to not find some kind of racism or discrimination in any country where different cultures and races reside for, as you pointed out yourself, in your trips around England you received it from your own kind!

In fact maybe my Japanese wife and I received it when we were told that there were no vacancies in the apartment complex we wanted to rent at and was told the last one was in process of being leased when we first moved to Tennessee. It could've been because I was a "yankee" (person from up north) and she an oriental. Who knows? But we found one within a day much as we did in Japan and within a year and a half built our own place so we wouldn't have to rent.

IMO i don't think it will ever end no matter what laws are passed or treaties signed as there will always be those few who will always discriminate based on looks, culture, religion, dress, etc. I believe it to be a fact of life on this planet no matter where one lives.

It doesn't make it right though.

[Glenski]

IMO i don't think it will ever end no matter what laws are passed or treaties signed as there will always be those few who will always discriminate based on looks, culture, religion, dress, etc. I believe it to be a fact of life on this planet no matter where one lives.
Moreover, having the laws in place at least gives one a legal foothold from which to complain and fight those few.

[gaijinalways]

Ditto to what Glenski says.

Though, I have to admit it, Marsman and Pachipro are two of the most humble posters on this forum. Wish I was half as calm as them all the time when I posted.

[alantin]

When certain "profiling" does arise in Japan from the local police, real estate agents, shops, etc., they immediately scream "racism" and think they were selected or refused service, solely based on their race.

Remember, it is profiling.

As "caster51" pointed out above, even the Japanese get stopped from time to time on their bicycles and I'm sure they too are profiled based on looks, age, etc.


This brings to my mind an occation when my dad was stopped and asked whose car he was driving! :p
He had bought the car a while back and it turned out the police were pretty familiar with the son of the seller.. :okashii:
In the end he got fed up with the police stopping him all the time and sold the car!

I myself used to get stopped and tested for alcohol in my breath by the police regularily when I was driving a car apparently in their minds often associated with teen drunk drivers. :okashii:

It was a cheap car popular with youngsters and I didn't get stopped anymore after I got a different kind of car!


So.. It happens home too (more for me here than in Japan!) but here I never associate it with the color of my skin or anything.
Often you just never know, why you were picked from the rest and I guess abroad it is easy to conclude it was because of your race..