Do Japanese Address you or your (Japanese) significant other?

[Mikawa Ossan]

This is a little hard to express exactly as I mean it, so please bear with me.

I've noticed over the past few weeks as my wife and I were looking at properties that we are almost never treated completely equally by the real estate agents. What I mean is that sometimes the agent will preferrentially talk to my wife, but at other times the agent will preferrentially talk to me (even though I am obviously not of Japanese heritage).

Noticing this, I decided to run a little test. When we went to a new place, sometimes I would speak first. Sometimes my wife would speak first. I wanted to know if the agents would react differently.

As it turns out, there did seem to be a distinct difference. When I spoke first, the agent had a much stronger tendency to speak to me, and vice versa when my wife spoke first.

Common sense, you say?

I have read countless times about foriegners who feel slighted by Japanese people for assuming that they don't speak Japanese, and I will admit that I encounter that, too, from time to time.

However, it seems to me that that way you as a foreigner behave is of tantamount importance. If you speak Japanese with confidence, people will treat you differently than if you stutter or show lack of confidence in yourself.

Of course there are those times when it doesn't matter at all. Just yesterday my wife and I went to the bank to exchange some U.S. currency into yen. My wife didn't say a word, but the bank employee had a pronounced tendency to try to address my wife rather than me.

So it happens.

But I wonder what everyone else's experience is like. When you go out to business establishments with your significant other, who do the employees tend to address? You or your other?

And what are your thoughts?

[Goldiegirl]

My husband gets talked to...but first they motion and make gestures because when we are together he doesn't look as Japanese as when he's alone. I know that sounds strange, but it's the truth and he gets really annoyed by that. Once they get the idea that he is a "real" Japanese person, all the talking is directed that way, as a matter of fact everything is directed his way. I don't mind, I can't, I don't speak Japanese.

[Chidoriashi]

Well, I usually get ignored. In fact even if I am the first one in the door of a restaurant many times the staff will be looking over my shoulder to see if a Japanese person is with me rather than listen to me speaking Japanese right at them. In some ways I do not blame them. I mean... fully fluent Westerners are somewhat of a minority, but I will say many are underestimated. Ironically though, after living in Japan for 4 years, I've developed the feeling that most Japanese people don't understand English very well either. Before I lived here though I thought Japanese people were way better at English. Now I feel like, maybe 7 out of 10 times if I talk to a Japanese person in English they won't understand me.

When I am with my girlfriend however, the whole "ignore me and talk to the Japanese" gets particularly frustrating. My girlfriend is 70% deaf and must read peoples lips. But many times they speak way to fast for her, and she doesn't understand them. So I have to answer for her, but even when I start answering the questions, they just keep talking towards her. Sometimes I have to point out to them that she is hard of hearing before they will finally realizes it is best to talk to me. That is not the case every time though. Sometimes, they catch on right away and will talk to me. But I will say it happens enough to be annoying.

[diceke]

I have read countless times about foriegners who feel slighted by Japanese people for assuming that they don't speak Japanese, and I will admit that I encounter that, too, from time to time.

I have read those stories too, but I wonder though, do the Vietnamese/Czechs/Filipinos etc. try to address a foreigner in Vietnamese/Czech/Tagalog etc.??
:clueless:

There's no reason to feel slighted by the assumption if you understand the current status of the Japanese language in the world. (And there's no reason to stand on the soap box, stomp your feet, and yell "xenophobia!!" )

1. Japanese is not the world dominant language. English, Spanish, French, etc. achieved their current status of dominance through a demonstration of power (military, cultural, or economic) in the past centuries. (They DID NOT share their languages with others OUT OF GENEROSITY!!)

2. There's a strong association between a people and a language, (although that's only relative.) Japanese is a vernacular language, a language of locality, as opposed to a vehicular language, which goes beyond the boundaries of its original community, such as English. (But then, some Brits think English belongs to them, don't they?)

So I'm just trying to explain the situation here. You can assume that foreigners understand your language only when that language has gained world-wide currency. That's not the case with the Japanese language at the moment.

[Dutch Baka]

Japanese most of the time address to my Japanese wife, but I think that's because my wife starts most of the talk and my lack of Japanese. I think if my Japanese would be on a higher level, I would be able to do the talk and it would be more equal...

I see a lot of Japanese hesitate whom to speak to, or whom to give money to when buying something... I think that's because most of the time when a man and women are together the men will do the talk and the business in Japan so they are used to do the conversation/exchange with the men.

と思います（i think)。

[MMM]

I spent a couple weeks in Osaka in March, and I speak with confidence. Not once on this trip did I feel I caused uneasiness in a waitress or shopkeeper. As you said, speaking with confidence, even if your Japanese isn't perfect, goes a long way.

[RockLee]

Well, Japanese people have a tendancy to talk to the one that to them looks like they can speak Japanese. If you would look asian, I bet it wouldn't be that much of a problem. I think when they try and talk Japanese to you, and you don't understand, they would feel uncomfortable for making a wrong assumption, so it's probably easier to just talk to the native (and save themselves the trouble of embarrasing themselves). At least this is what I myself would do.

[shintemaster]

So I'm just trying to explain the situation here. You can assume that foreigners understand your language only when that language has gained world-wide currency. That's not the case with the Japanese language at the moment.

All your points are quite valid on their own, however I know from substantial first hand and anecdotal evidence that this is not the only explanation. I've seen Japanese people constantly and despite all efforts go out of their way to speak to a person they assume is Japanese. This has nothing to do with assuming a language to be world-wide. It is definitely a common phenomenon. As for explanations, I would assume it's a social issue as quite obviously most people are capable of comprehending that a person speaking Japanese to them will expect to be answered in that language.

[Taiko666]

Well, Japanese people have a tendancy to talk to the one that to them looks like they can speak Japanese. If you would look asian, I bet it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

I often go for a snifter with an English friend of Chinese descent, whose Japanese is significantly worse than even mine. I handle all the communication with Japanese staff, and it's often the case that they appear completely dumbfounded, their head swinging from my friend to me and back, seemingly not being able to comprehend the situation.

As for going out with my partner... yes the first contact is nearly always directed at her... she then often gestures to me to answer, and after a few seconds of bemused head-swinging (see above) things settle down. I must say though that this phenomenon seems be happening a little less to us recently. Of course, it could be just my perception that's changing...

[FrustratedDave]

Common sense, you say?

I have read countless times about foriegners who feel slighted by Japanese people for assuming that they don't speak Japanese, and I will admit that I encounter that, too, from time to time.

However, it seems to me that that way you as a foreigner behave is of tantamount importance. If you speak Japanese with confidence, people will treat you differently than if you stutter or show lack of confidence in yourself.

Of course there are those times when it doesn't matter at all. Just yesterday my wife and I went to the bank to exchange some U.S. currency into yen. My wife didn't say a word, but the bank employee had a pronounced tendency to try to address my wife rather than me.

So it happens.

But I wonder what everyone else's experience is like. When you go out to business establishments with your significant other, who do the employees tend to address? You or your other?

And what are your thoughts?

Well, it happens to me quite regulary and I don't get upset in the way that I am being discriminated against and I ignor it most of the time,,, Except... When when it is me they need to be addressing and not my wife.

I will say this again and not for the reason of trying to sound good, but my Japanese is on par with any native here and I do not have a noticable accent (people on the phone do not know they are speaking to a gaijin on the phone until I say my name, which usually brings on the reaction of "what Kanji is tha
t?", its katakana silly. Anyway thats another story.)

@ diceke & Mikawa, It doesn't matter how good your Japanese is ,it will depend on the person you are speaking if they will address you.

The other day I decided to change from J-com broad band to NTT optical for my computer. So this is how the situation occured. Mind you I have my own house ect, ect.

So I have had many phone calls about when they could come and hook up the cables ect, probably over ten, as there is a bit to organise in cancelling from the other company too. So the day arrives, I answer the door and the guy says he needs to look inside and check where the cable is situated in house and we talk about how long the installation due to the fact that my wife knows nothing about this and that I have taken time off work to get this done and I need a time frame to organise what I will do that afternoon and we talk about a few other things, all which took about 10 mins.

So he looks around for the cable inside and when he can't find what he is looking for he gets up off the floor and imediatly starts asking my wife where main internet connection is in the house, now my wife is on the other side of our living room which is about 900sq ft. Now I was standing right beside this guy??? Obviously my wife knows nothing about this and is why I came home early to deal with everything, and befor she has time to say that she know nothing, I address this fellow. This is what I said to him , "Why are you talking to her? did I just not talk to you about the fact that she knows nothing, but yet you still ignore me and speak to her. If you have a question ,ask me or figure it out yourself!"

Anyway this kind of thing happens a lot and I am not too bothered by it, but when the need arrises I will plainly ask them to address me.

So I think you will find it has nothing to do with your Japanese ability and everything to do with #1 what kind of person you are dealing with and #2 what you look like.

[diceke]

I must say though that this phenomenon seems be happening a little less to us recently. Of course, it could be just my perception that's changing...
Maybe your Japanese got better than before...:souka:

Anyway, after a few exchanges, things settle down. So it doesn't really matter.

[Chidoriashi]

I agree with Dave, how you look plays a big role. The closer you look to Japanese, the better your language ability is assumed to be. This can be frustrating, but I understand it. Most of the stereotypical Western looking people in Japan cannot communicate effectively in Japanese. That is not to say they should not be given a chance though if they want it. I think a lot of Japanese do not have a good perception about people learning their language.. particularly when it comes to Kanji.. they just assume it is too hard, and anything above that of 3rd grade level is impossible for most people to read. Hell, lots of times you barely get the benefit of being assumed to know hiragana and katakana

My favorite scenario for being ignored though is when a Japanese person asks questions about me to the Japanese person with me. My friend stands there silent, I answer the questions, and the Japanese asking questions about me keeps on addressing them towards my friend, who is saying nothing..... Some stereotypes for some people cannot be broken I guess. Either that or those types of people are just a little slow...

[Taiko666]

Maybe your Japanese got better than before...:souka:

Anyway, after a few exchanges, things settle down. So it doesn't really matter.

It's certainly not one of life's major problems, but it is irritating and somewhat demoralizing, and one has to get used to it.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I am one of the two who cast my vote for "both of us equally," as this has largely been my experience.

I don't look anywhere near asian. I am about as German-Northern European looking as they get, but I usually don't have this problem, even when I am with my wife.

I've noticed that the clothes I wear have a lot to do with how likely people are going to be "willing participants" in conversation with me, however. The more casually I dress, the more likely people will assume I don't know any Japanese. (Mainly for this reason, I prefer winter to summer, as it's easier to dress non-casually when it's cold outside, in my experience.)

I also have the experience (which I posted about a while ago on another thread) of being with a guy who was obviously Asian and the Japanese guy at the shrine we were at didn't even try to talk to him, but only addressed me from the very beginning.

I agree that it largely depends on the person you're talking to, but I remain convinced that in most cases the way one carries him or herself and the way he or she dresses is a major factor.

[FrustratedDave]

I wonder if me being a big guy has anything to do with it. I am 6'1" and about 230lbs and in reasonable shape. Maybe they feel intimidated???

[caster51]

I wonder if me being a big guy has anything to do with it. I am 6'1" and about 230lbs and in reasonable shape. Maybe they feel intimidated???

I think it is also persecution complex because I never think so as an ordinary Japanese :-):-)

It doesn't matter how good your Japanese is ,it will depend on the person you are speaking if they will address you.

i think it is important for his job to tell the things without misunderstanding.he does not want to say something same twice.
I think most Japanese dont think that foreigner can understand everthing in Japanese immediately even if you speak good Japanese

[FrustratedDave]

I think most Japanese dont think that foreigner can understand everthing in Japanese immediately even if you speak good Japanese
Unfortunate. But after 10 mins of taking to someone, you would think that they would realise that the person they are talking to fully understands what is being said.

Well anyway in my situation above ,he understood my Japanese perfectly well after I ripped into him when he told me they had made a mistake and had to come back another day and do the installation. I could not believe it, they came three times before this to check things out, each time I was present. (but that is another story too, something that would also happen not only in Japan)

[Mikawa Ossan]

Bring back this thread from the dead...

Yesterday I went to Osaka to talk to a friend about business. His business is different from the business that I want to start, but seeing as he has had his own company for years, he is the first person I go to for advice.

Anyway, I was talking about my opinions, but my friend really didn't know how to respond, as it is not the area of his expertise. We are sitting down at a counter in a ramen shop in Namba. "Senpuu" or "Ippuu" or some place like that.

Suddenly the guy sitting right next to me turns to me and starts offering his advice. It turns out the his area of expertise is exactly what I am interested in. Anyway, he talked almost entirely to me for the next 15 minutes or so.

However, for some other topic, he talked to my friend.

Just some more food for thought.

[becki_kanou]

I agree with Dave, how you look plays a big role. The closer you look to Japanese, the better your language ability is assumed to be. This can be frustrating, but I understand it. Most of the stereotypical Western looking people in Japan cannot communicate effectively in Japanese.
This is so true. Several years ago I had arranged a meeting with a real estate agent over the telephone, and when we met in person for the first time you could see the shock on her face. She actually said to me "I thought you were Korean on the phone because your Japanese was so good." ie: not quite native, but too good for a Westerner. I just laughed it off, but that assumption does kind of peeve me.
My favorite scenario for being ignored though is when a Japanese person asks questions about me to the Japanese person with me. My friend stands there silent, I answer the questions, and the Japanese asking questions about me keeps on addressing them towards my friend, who is saying nothing..... Some stereotypes for some people cannot be broken I guess. Either that or those types of people are just a little slow...
This too! This has happened to me so many times. I tell myself I should just get used to it, but it's so annoying. My husband thinks it's funny, but it really is tiring the 500th or so time it happens.

[Glenski]

Restaurant and store clerks listen to me for a moment if I make the first move to communicate, but they always defer to my wife if there is any doubt in their minds as to what they may have understood. Understandable, I guess, but irritating.

[bobsnowbear]

"So I think you will find it has nothing to do with your Japanese ability and everything to do with #1 what kind of person you are dealing with and #2 what you look like."

This is what FrustratedDave wrote and I agree. Living in Japan more than
30 years has made me an irritated bobsnowbear many times. I also speak
Japanese but to no avail where some people are concerned.

[bluepilot]

When I am with my female friends, no problem but when I am with someone male....grrrr....

[SpikeDaCruz]

"Both Equally".............

[Ahega]

I really should pay attention to this when I'll go out with my boyfriend next time (though he has the habit to handle everything...)
Anyway, my female friends and I went out with a Japanese friend of ours and we entered a restaurant. Since I was the first of us going in I spoke to the staff and they didn't bother with the Japanese friend who was with us. Just an example, because I, too, agree that it has much to do with who speaks first and how confident is the person. I'm far away from being fluent but I talk without any hesitation and fear of mistakes since I believe they still will understand me.
Actually, what I experienced a lot is, when a Japanese starts talking to me (I have to note that I've never been addressed in English) it seems as they'd think I'm able to understand everything they say. Yes, I'm able to communicate but my vocabulary is still way to limited for my own taste. I wouldn't find it odd (since you just DO talk freely in your mother tongue) if it would happen to my friends, too. But it doesn't. Just a small thing, but it made me wonder if others have this feeling, too.

[Azuma_Fujin]

This too! This has happened to me so many times. I tell myself I should just get used to it, but it's so annoying. My husband thinks it's funny, but it really is tiring the 500th or so time it happens.

Oh yeah, preaching to the converted here! Know exactly what you're talking about.

Most Japanese think my husband looks Chinese some have even asked if he is from Tibet! But wherever i have been in Japan, even if i have initiated conversation, they always talk to him, or ask him about me blah blah. I always assumed it was because he was a man and i am a woman, and in Japan i thought he was meant to be higher than me, but it could be that they assumed i don't speak Japanese, but if i just spoke it to them....and they spoke to my husband instead of me, well i just don't know!