For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

[gaijinalways]

I am posting this question to see what various people think and to see which issues you're looking at when we consider living in a country.

I'll be happy to share my views later.

[Sensuikan San]

What a strange and curious question - applied to any country, not just Japan.

But an exceedingly complex question also ... I think I see where you are coming from, but I'm damned if I see an instant answer - if there is an answer at all!

Frankly, I don't think there is an answer to your question. It would depend so much on the individual to whom it was put. It would depend on whether or not the individual was 'happy' with the country of their birth or dissatisfied (for whatever reason) or whether the immigrant/visitor ('gaijin') felt comfortable or 'happy' in their adopted society.

For example, in Canada, I am a "gaijin". I am happy and I am much more satisfied with my lot and with the country than many Canadians I know. Does that mean that it is easier for a foreigner to live in Canada than it is a Canadian?

No.

At the same time ... in the UK, I would be a Native-born citizen. But (with all due respect to all you 'fellow Brits') - I simply feel "dissatisfied" in an inexplicable way. Does that mean that life is easier for the very many immigrants to Britain than it would be for me?

No.

So ... where does this leave us?

Nowhere. Overall the question is too subjective to have an objective response. Others may feel differently, however, and the question is undoubtely an interesting piece of "lateral thinking" in a way.

Regards,

ジョン

[caster51]

For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

foreigners..
they have many options.
they can use a gaijin card

[tokapi]

foreigners ..





Yea,my Americanized Japanese language exchange partner thought so too as he explained to me that ( exclude struggling gaijin English-teachers ) legal resident foreigners of Western-background live better than average local middle-class & working-class Japanese.

[JerseyBoy]

I think a foreigner will have a better living in Japan. If I were in Japan all my life, I know I would not be where I am. A typical Japanese are paid by the salary scale pegged at his/her age. Luckily, I was able to leave Japan for many years and still feel Japan is a foreign country for me. Because of my living outside of Japan, I was immune to that low salary which a typical Japanese worker gets in my age bracket. After a year of stay in Japan after my return from USA, I prefer the USA/Western style-living and am in the process for the career I can work like I am still in USA even though I am in Japan.

[orochi]

Yea,my Americanized Japanese language exchange partner thought so too as he explained to me that ( exclude struggling gaijin English-teachers ) legal resident foreigners of Western-background live better than average local middle-class & working-class Japanese.
That's a pretty general statement. Are they actually living better lives because they are non-Japanese living in Japan? Or would their skills and connections earn them a comfortable existence anywhere in the world they could practice their trade?
A typical Japanese are paid by the salary scale pegged at his/her age.
This style of salary has nothing to do with race or geography--it's about choice of employer.

[tokapi]

Professional foreign nationals ( of certain ethnic background & specific trade ) are not subject to this type of work lifestyle,right ?!


Japan reports record mental disorder cases due to work

Friday, May 30, 2008

TOKYO — A record 268 people were officially recognized as suffering mental disorders from job-related stress and overwork （ 過労と過度のｽﾄﾚｽで ） in Japan for the year to March 2008, the government said.

It was up from 205 a year earlier and the second consecutive annual gain, the Health, Labor and Welfare Ministry said in a survey released on Friday.

Of them, 81 committed suicide for the year, also a record high.

Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. A government survey recently found almost 20% of Japanese adults have considered killing themselves, with half the respondents saying movies and television are contributing to the high suicide rate.

Source: http://www.bworldonline.com/BW053008/content.php?id=084


There are some local Japanese hi-tech firms even screwed their college-educated engineers with long hours & expect them to work harder then wouldn't allow them entitlement ( cash pay out or time off ) to accrued holidays when turn in resignation ( quit the company ).I had one online J-male ( Cobol-san ) acquaintance wrote the details and whined about it in his blog.He left Japan for Australia last Fall ( 2007 ) in hope of better leisure living there,that country is now extremely popular among younger generation Japanese.

[orochi]

Yes, there are non-Japanese working in Japan who are overworked and underpaid.

[tokapi]

In this case,Japan is not up to par with all other industrialized nations.

[gaijinalways]

Sensuikan San posted Nowhere. Overall the question is too subjective to have an objective response. Others may feel differently, however, and the question is undoubtely an interesting piece of "lateral thinking" in a way.

It's a question that will have different answers depending on your defintion of easy. Also of course, it depends on how you define foreigner, as certainly some foreigners have an easier life here than others. Japan is quite diferent from Canada or the UK, countries I didn't ask about.

If you think it's a subjective question, then give your subjective answer. But I beleive most people have an opinion about it.

[Taiko666]

foreigners..
they have many options.
they can use a gaijin card

caster, you're becoming a comedian!

Professional foreign nationals ( of certain ethnic background & specific trade ) are not subject to this type of work lifestyle,right ?!

If one works in a Japanese company one is subject to the same stresses as Japanese... probably worse.

[caster51]

If one works in a Japanese company one is subject to the same stresses as Japanese... probably worse.

I think to work is same everywhere
however, I feel JET is having a vacation in japan

anyway,why did you chose it in Japan such like a racist country as you said?
and you hava an option that you go home if you dont like it.
i can say it easier while you are complaining

[gaijinalways]

anyway,why did you chose it in Japan such like a racist country as you said?
and you hava an option that you go home if you dont like it.
i can say it easier while you are complaining

Ah, Caster, but that is going a bit off topic, yes? Of course, that is one thing that might make it easier for some people to live here, because we know we can always leave. Now of course, that is easier said than done if your spouse is Japanese.

As to why he chose to come here, that is also off topic, but certainly you can PM the poster or open another thread on that topic, "Why might people come to a place that they now have a negative view of?". Chances are the posters didn't have the same view about Japan before coming here as they have now.

If one works in a Japanese company one is subject to the same stresses as Japanese... probably worse.

I'm not sure, in some cases it can be better, because foreigners will often not take seriously the little head games that are played at work. That doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't bother them, especially if they are out of the info loop, but otherwise it probably doesn't bother them that much.

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Is this more of a question of "are foreigners happier living in Japan than Japanese?"? Such a question could never be answered. Happiness aside, i would imagine its easier for Japanese to live in Japan simply because they are probably less likely to encounter barriers in their day-to-day lives like language and cultural problems, and they are probably more likely to be accepted in general and not made to feel like an outsider etc.
When you go on holiday to a country, most of the time you will always end up only seeing the best of that country of which it has to offer (if you have a good holiday that is)- for us Brits, going to places like Spain or Amsterdam is a good holiday destination, however i'm sure if a lot of us lived permanently in these countries we would start to see a lot more of the negative issues in such countries. With the question of whether it is easier for foreigners to live in a country like Japan, are we talking about people who live there on long term holidays or people that live there as full citizens? 'Cos i think this is an important factor to take into consideration when answering the question (if it can be done so to any extent).

[gaijinalways]

With the question of whether it is easier for foreigners to live in a country like Japan, are we talking about people who live there on long term holidays or people that live there as full citizens? 'Cos i think this is an important factor to take into consideration when answering the question (if it can be done so to any extent).

Either as both may live here in Japan long term ( I am coming up on my 11th year anniversary this month).

Is this more of a question of "are foreigners happier living in Japan than Japanese?"? Such a question could never be answered.

Depends on how you define easier.

Happiness aside, i would imagine its easier for Japanese to live in Japan simply because they are probably less likely to encounter barriers in their day-to-day lives like language and cultural problems, and they are probably more likely to be accepted in general and not made to feel like an outsider etc.

Interesting that I have only seen a glimpse from one poster on what some possible negatives for Japanese living in their own country might be. It's not always a question of feeling like an outsider, but rather a different feeling, more like being watched all the time (at least that was how it was described to me, anyway). So some Japanese mentioned to me that in Japan, they never felt completely free as they might living in some other countries.

I suppose freedom is a relative concept.

[Mars Man]

I am concerned about the nature, composition, and intended direction of this thread, but, in that it was not in the Serious Discussions sub-fora, will let that concern remain where it rests.

I would be fully willing to argue, if I really had the time to properly do so, that it is easier for Japanese nationals to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese nationals. (where Japanese national means a person who was born here by parents who had both been born here (at the least--if not with one more generation) and who had all grown up here, or are presently growing up here, or temporarily abroad--as in college or office overseas)

My reason for arguing such is a simple demographical cross-section taken by random choice over the entire national geographical boundry. To refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise. Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.'

That being the case, there is no room for discussion of cultural differences of any kind.

Perhaps Chit Chat & Miscellaneous might have been the better choice of location?

[Glenski]

foreigners..
they have many options.
they can use a gaijin card
As usual, I disagree 100%.

Japanese know the language and customs. They are used to the life of "gaman", "honne" & "tatemae", etc. Whether they like them is moot. Just because they are used to these things automatically makes life easier for them than for foreigners.

[gaijinalways]

I would be fully willing to argue, if I really had the time to properly do so, that it is easier for Japanese nationals to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese nationals.

No problem, real life often takes precedence over virtual life:relief:.

My reason for arguing such is a simple demographical cross-section taken by random choice over the entire national geographical boundry.

You've lost me here. This is more an examination of values that makes living in Japan easier or not.

To refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise.

I am still lost here. I hope you have time to clarify what you mean.

As to the question, the defintions of the terms were intentionally kept vague to encourage more discussion. Where one lives in Japan has more bearing on other factors, which often affect Japanese and non-Japanese alike (except for possible contact with others of the same nationality or first language, both of which have some bearing on this question). Some foreigners prefer to live in 'inaka' areas, taking in stride the possibility of speaking and meeting another native English speaker perhaps only once a month or so.

Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.'

That again is up to the poster, but certainly must be addressed. If you wish to qualify your remarks to focus on certain ethnic groups please do so.

That being the case, there is no room for discussion of cultural differences of any kind.

I would argue otherwise. If anything, there is lots of 'space' to discuss about cultural differences.

Perhaps Chit Chat & Miscellaneous might have been the better choice of location?

Because of the reasons cited above, I would think where the thread presently is would be a better location. But as usual, I have no qualms about leaving such categorical decisions to our capable mods.

[gaijinalways]

Japanese know the language and customs. They are used to the life of "gaman", "honne" & "tatemae", etc. Whether they like them is moot. Just because they are used to these things automatically makes life easier for them than for foreigners.

Is that true? I seem to often run into dissatisfied Japanese who wish they didn't have to deal with these factors. Of course I also run into their alter egos, people who couldn't even envision living anywhere else and can't fathom a Japanese national preferring to live somewhere besides Japan.

Furthermore, foreigners can learn the language and the customs of Japan, so I'm not sure that would make living in Japan much easier for Japanese.

[FrustratedDave]

Is that true? I seem to often run into dissatisfied Japanese who wish they didn't have to deal with these factors. Of course I also run into their alter egos, people who couldn't even envision living anywhere else and can't fathom a Japanese national preferring to live somewhere besides Japan.
Furthermore, foreigners can learn the language and the customs of Japan, so I'm not sure that would make living in Japan much easier for Japanese.
Of corse they don't want to deal with these factors ,but as Glenski said, they are better equipped to deal with them than a foreigner, which brings us back to the original question that it is harder for foreigners to live here.

My oppinion is that it is a lot harder for a foreigners to live here long term than a Japanese. On the other hand the short term foreigners could have it easier due to the fact that they know they will be going back to where they come from and not have to worry about their long term future.

The long term foreigners face a whole different range of problems that people who only live here for 2, 3 or even 5 years know nothing about. But one thing is for certain the longer you live here the harder it becomes for a foreigner. However, if the foreigners in question is willing to assimilate the Japanese customs and way of life it will get exponentially easier. That being said it still is harder for a foreigners due to the fact that there are racial barriers all around them and when a simple task for a Japanese can turn into a nightmare for a foreigner.

My two cents.

[Mars Man]

Gaijinalways has written:
I would argue otherwise.

To this, I respond with a strong, 'Please do!' So far you have only taken 'pot shots' from a somewhat disengauged postition in an evident attempt to weaken others' comments.

The OP is extremely naked. In fact, only one word in the title allows us to focus on Japan at all--otherwise, as posted above, the text provides room for us to use this thread to discuss living in any non-birthplace political state.

Gaijinalways has also commented as follows:
You've lost me here...I am still lost here

To this I strongly urge you to give it some deep and careful thought, and see what you can reason it out as meaning; in the most practical sense. Put some real work into the thread, rather than simply opening up with a what otherwise looks overly 'trollish' in fashion OP and intention.

[gaijinalways]

Sorry Marsman, you'll have to do better than that, even with your limited time. I really don't understand your answer.

mm postedI would be fully willing to argue, if I really had the time to properly do so, that it is easier for Japanese nationals to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese nationals.

Okay up to here.

marsman posted My reason for arguing such is a simple demographical cross-section taken by random choice over the entire national geographical boundry. To refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise. Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.'

This is the part where I say 'huh' and ask you for an explanation.

I can guess

a) you think the whole country is too wide an area to examine (entire national geographic boundary)
b) the defintion of 'easy' is not defined(refute my conclusion, one will have to refute the applicable necessity of the definition of 'easy' that I have chosen to appeal to in my working premise.)
c) you want a simpler defintion of foreigner (Also, one would have to refute the conclusion I have arrived at regarding what state is most practically determinably as that of 'foreigner.' )

Is this what you meant (in my bolded statements)?

I'm not trolling, except for opinions. I don't expect there to be a definitive answer to the question.

marsman posted To this, I respond with a strong, 'Please do!' So far you have only taken 'pot shots' from a somewhat disengauged postition in an evident attempt to weaken others' comments.

As said, I was looking for some discussion or opinions offered first before rolling out my 'grand' theory. Don't worry, it will be forthcoming. And thanks for moving the thread if you think it's better placed here under general Japan-related discussion.

frustrated dave postedMy oppinion is that it is a lot harder for a foreigners to live here long term than a Japanese. On the other hand the short term foreigners could have it easier due to the fact that they know they will be going back to where they come from and not have to worry about their long term future.

I definately agree, and since the time frame is not specified in my original question, this is a very good answer (and part of the 'theory' I will share soon). Even for some foreigners who stay here a little longer, they still have the option to leave, though it is perhaps harder to disengage before it's too late to leave.

[semprni]

I must confess, after initially loving Japan, I found it increasingly hard to live here, and this is one of the reasons I'm now leaving: I realised I was never going to be accepted as a equal by the majority of Japanese people, no matter how good I got at the language. Clearly this doesn't affect Japanese people. As for salaries, in the science lab I worked in, people's salaries were purely set by position, not nationality, so there was no difference there.

[orochi]

As said, I was looking for some discussion or opinions offered first before rolling out my 'grand' theory. Don't worry, it will be forthcoming.

We're all at the edge of our seats...

[Mikawa Ossan]

I think that if you plan on staying for a long time, meaning forever, it is definately easier for Japanese.

First, Japanese people do not have to worry about visas. They are citizens and therefore are entitled to live here forever. Even if a foreigner has an easy time obtaining his or her visa, it is an inconvenience that a Japanese national will never have to worry about in Japan.

Second, there is the language issue. This may be true anywhere, but if you are illiterate, you will find yourself in big trouble soon. Learning to read and write Japanese takes quite a bit of time, even for Japanese people, but they have the benefit of learning it as a child on the same level with other Japanese people of the same age.

So very little that really matters is written in any language other than Japanese. Contracts, manuals, receipts, application forms, maps, etc. Not being proficient in Japanese and trying to do anything of substance (moving, buying a house or car, etc.) must be like pulling teeth.

How about the little things? You're lost in some place and you need to ask for directions. If you don't speak Japanese, good luck.

How about bigger things? You get in a traffic accident and need to call the insurance company and police. Don't know Japanese? Good luck.

Having relatives is important for obtaining contracts. This depends a lot on the company you're dealing with, but if you're renting an apartment on your own (e.g., not through your company), having a relative co-sign your lease makes things go through a heck of a lot easier. Some places won't accept co-signers who are not relatives except under special circumstances, and then they still don't carry the same weight.

Making friends is much easier if you speak Japanese, unless you're content with having mostly foreign friends. Foreign people have a bad tendency to move out of the country, though.

However, I do agree with Caster in a sense. If you're here short term for the JET Programme and in your 20's, you probably have it easier than a similar Japanese person of your age. However, depending on where you're sent, it might be hell, too. I have heard of a JET who was placed in the middle of nowhere, and she was literally bawling and pleading to go home after only being there for one day!

Having said that, after spending some time on Gaijin Pot, I understand how people can have an easy time in Japan as a foreigner. But those people are only here on short term and mostly seem to want to play around, anyway. Those people I don't include in my 'analysis' above.

[gaijinalways]

orichi posted We're all at the edge of our seats...

Luckily I fell off of mine a long time ago.

Mikawa Ossan posted I think that if you plan on staying for a long time, meaning forever, it is definately easier for Japanese.

First, Japanese people do not have to worry about visas.

Since I am a permanent resident, I don't have a lot of worries when it comes to visas (though I do admit having to keep getting reentry permits is irksome:okashii:).

Mikawa Ossan postedSecond, there is the language issue

Yes, but I suppose language is not everything. Many of your points after this center around this linguistic ability, excepting having relatives, which I also have since my wife is Japanese.


Mikawa Ossan postedHaving said that, after spending some time on Gaijin Pot, I understand how people can have an easy time in Japan as a foreigner. But those people are only here on short term and mostly seem to want to play around, anyway. Those people I don't include in my 'analysis' above.

I probably wouldn't either, though it is difficult to decide who are short term and long term residents sometimes. As to what people want to do, I'll leave that up to others to figure out.

[Mars Man]

Thanks for the response, gaijinalways san. . . we can now see that you are willing, at least, to put forth some real effort for this thread. Now, I strongly suggest that if you are really in for a discussion related to the more specific concept questioned by your own OP, that you allow that your mature posting quality be seen and present your position. Only by having done that can we actually discuss this with you, and you with us.

I will give you until tomorrow this time to have done so, and if not, there is a very good chance that I, personally, will close this thread, because you are still acting 'trollish' in nature here--and of course no degree of trollishness ever admits to itself, therefore I will appeal to 'actions speak louder than words' here.

After you have presented your position, I will discuss it with you in further detail.

[Pachipro]

When all is take into account, I believe that it is easier for the foreigner to live in Japan, both the long-term and the short-term, as foreigners ARE NOT expected to know the language, culture, and customs 100% even if they are fluent in the language and have lived there for more than 10 years. It is just not expected of them; never has, and probably never will be. Even though they desire it and demand the respect accorded any Japanese for following their customs and learning the language, it will never happen and this tends to frustrate the hell out of many a long-term foreigner where they come to despise the country they have called home and haved decided to reside in for who knows how long.

As was mentioned above, even long-term foreigners can always play the "gaijin card" and they will be forgiven because, after all, they are foreign. Once a foreigner understands that they will never be accepted and learns to live with it, only then may they enjoy the fruits of living in Japan as a foreigner, especially if one is fluent.

A Japanese on the other hand has no card to play and must do what is expected of any Japanese whether they like it or not. Is it not "Jersey Boy" who, being Japanese, but lived in America so long that he feels American, is now having trouble coping with the customs and traditions of Japan now that he has moved back? So much so that he is even wondering whether he needs a pre-nup before getting married.

Japanese know the language and customs. They are used to the life of "gaman", "honne" & "tatemae", etc. Whether they like them is moot. Just because they are used to these things automatically makes life easier for them than for foreigners.
I respectively disagree as I know more than a few Japanese who wish they never had to do the "gaman", "honne" and "tatamae" thing, but do it only because it is expected of them even though it frustrates the hell out of them especially if they have lived in the states for a considerable amount of time. Just because they HAVE to follow them, it does NOT make life any more easier for them. In fact, the opposite seems to be more the truth even for those few (that I know) that have never been to a foreign country, but are a little more cultured on life outside of Japan than their fellow countrymen/women.

Personally, as I've said before, even though I may be fluent in the language and culture and have lived there for many years, I can play the game and have, but I like being a foreigner where it is not expected of me to understand all there is to know of Japanese culture and I can act on it if I choose to.

It's comforting, in a strange way, knowing I have that option since I already know, and understand, that I will not be accepted, nor do I want/desire to and, I also know it will not be expected of me outside of my closest friends and relatives. With them I do play the game because it is expected of me.

Either way, IMO, it is much easier to live in Japan as a foreigner if one can overcome the fact that they will never be considered a Japanese person even if they have become a citizen. Round eyes will never equate to Japanese for the Japanese even if they were born there and lived no where else!

[Goldiegirl]

Pachipro, just because you don't have to follow traditions etc, and can play the "gaijin card" doesn't make it easier UNLESS you are happy being a forever outsider a perpetual visitor. I wouldn't find that situation easy ever, and never would I want to endure it. I would love to fit in and be a real part of society not forever sentenced to linger in the outer fringes of society, being there but not being included.....

[Glenski]

Is that true? I seem to often run into dissatisfied Japanese who wish they didn't have to deal with these factors. Of course I also run into their alter egos, people who couldn't even envision living anywhere else and can't fathom a Japanese national preferring to live somewhere besides Japan.Fair enough response. There probably are Japanese who don't consider gaman, honne, and tatemae "moot", as I put it. But, I don't think either of us has an inkling as to what percentage they are. Erring on the side of conservatism, I think it's fair to say that the majority don't feel as strongly that way as any foreigner. So, it's therefore easier for them to live here, compared to us foreigners.

Furthermore, foreigners can learn the language and the customs of Japan, so I'm not sure that would make living in Japan much easier for Japanese.Yes, learning the language makes it easier than not learning it, but despite that (and learning customs), foreigners will almost always be treated differently (usually negatively) compared to the locals. So, you may be perfectly fluent and up to snuff about every nuance about culture, yet still be considered an outsider. Just look at a minor example in Debito Arudou and his continued hassles with human rights despite being a naturalized citizen.

Oh, and just how long do you figure it would take before a foreigner is perfectly fluent in Japanese language and customs? You have to determine that because without such a level of knowledge, you don't have an equivalence. Pretty obvious that it'll take a long time, and during that time, life here is not easier by a long shot.

[Mars Man]

But you see, Pachipro san, unless you can show, beyond a majority and reasonable doubt, that your definition and applicable necessity of 'easier' is the more correct one, we can all say that your conclusion is faulty, and to that degree, incorrect.

This is, in fact, the fallacy of the OP, which is, by extension, the absurdity of the question presented. I hope to get term definitions set here, as soon as possible...otherwise anything anyone presents will have practically no adhesive ability--simple a giant free-for-all. Glenski is correct (as I've said before, and has Mikawa Ossan) it's clearly and beyond all question that the answer is in favor of the Japanese national born and raised here!

[FrustratedDave]

@ Pachipro, you make it sound like , I emphisise "sound like" the Japanese people will open up and do anything for you and you get away with anything if you play the Gaijin card. Moses parting the red sea comes to mind.

Your definition of easy seems to differ I feel. If playing the Gaijin card is easy, why does it tend to make things harder in most instances, like being in a car bingle. I had a friend who spoke no Japanese who was in a minor car accident, long story short, he had to go back to the police station while they questioned him and the Japanese driver was allowed to go home, sounds like a big hassle to me even though they were not suspecting him of anything and just wanted to get his details correct. And don't say these events are isolated, b/c I don't know how many times I have been asked to fill out forms and the Japanese person next to me proccesed imediately and mine takes 20 mins b/c they are not sure how to put my place of birth into the system or something trivial like this.

Every time I have played the Gaijin card when I first got here I was held up in someway or another, so sure if you don't mind going through all the hassle that comes with it, I suppose you could say it is easier. But before I do, there are things in this society that you get Knocked back just for being a Gaijin (admittedly it is due to the minority of idiots who did not respect the fact that they would be ruining it for the next foriegner that came to Japan, and I believe that some of things the Japanese have every right to deny in some cases)

And was it not you who got arrested for not carrying his gaijin card? Don't see that often with Japanese...

[ASHIKAGA]

@ Pachipro, you make it sound like , I emphisise "sound like" the Japanese people will open up and do anything for you and you get away with anything if you play the Gaijin card. Moses parting the red sea comes to mind.

Your definition of easy seems to differ I feel. If playing the Gaijin card is easy, why does it tend to make things harder in most instances, like being in a car bingle. I had a friend who spoke no Japanese who was in a minor car accident, long story short, he had to go back to the police station while they questioned him and the Japanese driver was allowed to go home, sounds like a big hassle to me even though they were not suspecting him of anything and just wanted to get his details correct. And don't say these events are isolated, b/c I don't know how many times I have been asked to fill out forms and the Japanese person next to me proccesed imediately and mine takes 20 mins b/c they are not sure how to put my place of birth into the system or something trivial like this.

Every time I have played the Gaijin card when I first got here I was held up in someway or another, so sure if you don't mind going through all the hassle that comes with it, I suppose you could say it is easier. But before I do, there are things in this society that you get Knocked back just for being a Gaijin (admittedly it is due to the minority of idiots who did not respect the fact that they would be ruining it for the next foriegner that came to Japan, and I believe that some of things the Japanese have every right to deny in some cases)

And was it not you who got arrested for not carrying his gaijin card? Don't see that often with Japanese...

Pachipuro was able to play the Gaijin Card because he was fluent in Japanese. I don't think your friend was really PLAYING the Gaijin Card as he had no other options.

[gaijinalways]

Wow, I got under somebody's skin, I guess.

Let's start briefly witha lot of qualifications. When we look at foreigners in Japan, who are we talking about;

1)Westerners from English speaking countries
2) Zainichi (Chinese and Koreans who were born here)
3) Indians
4) Other Westerners
5) Others (Asians, Polynesians, etc.)
6) Brazilian-Japanese

The largest group is the Zainichi, though some of them are vritually indistinguishable from Japanese as they have a high level of language ability in the local language, as well as look Asian and often carry a Japanese name unless they prefer not to (when this is where the trouble often starts). The Brazilian-Japanese are technically Japanese (half), but they can appear the same or not as their Japanese cousins depending on genetic factors.

With that in mind, I am going to focus on the two other groups 1) and 4) who in a sense, I consider more foreign (as I believe the Japanese do also, but that woulld be another thread topic).

Now we have seen that Pachipro has introduced the 'gaijin card', which can be played regardless of your Japanese fluency. As to when it is more effective, I have no idea, as I generally don't use it. I often do the reverse, play up on making a 'Japanese' decision in some cases when it favors me.

So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;

1) Use of language

2) Help of family members

3)Employment

4)Culture shock

5) Home sickness

6) circle of friends and acquaintances

7) dealing with customs

8) dealing with daily life

9) mental health issues from dealing with honne, tatamae, on, and giri

I need to go teach now, so I will return later today adding a few more categories as well as an explanation of my 'theory'.

[FrustratedDave]

Pachipuro was able to play the Gaijin Card because he was fluent in Japanese. I don't think your friend was really PLAYING the Gaijin Card as he had no other options.
Whether you can choose to use it or have no choice, I have rarely seen it actually make life easier. Most things are made harder for a foriegner, from renting and appartment to getting a video card. These are the places where life is made hard.

[gaijinalways]

Okay, I'm back.

6) circle of friends and acquaintances

7) dealing with customs

8) dealing with daily life

1) Of course this is going to be easier for Japanese. That goes without saying. That being said, some foreigners do achieve a very high level of fluency here, either because they are good with languages and/or came here at a fairly young age. I have a friend who is a translator, and he is much more comfortable living here than in the US when he visits his daughter living there.

2) This will often be a big issue for many Japanese. For the foreigners, it depends. Some of them might be very independent, so being away from the family turns out to be not much of a deal. In some cases also, some Japanese live far away fom their families and are 'homesick' because of that.

3) This is a mixed bag, though I would say for the foreigners that I am speaking about, we're often doing better than many average Japanese. The problem sometimes is in calculating benefits which quite a few foreigners lose out on, but if they are here on short term expat packages they usually are doing more than okay. As to the educators, it depends. For me the lack of security is maddening sometimes, but the amount of vacation time makes up for it:relief:.

4) Of course, the foreigners will probably suffer the most, though again I have seen some displaced 'inaka' people suffering in Tokyo. I sometimes can't differentiate between culture shock and boredom. I get bored living any place too long, probably my nature.

5) This of course is somewhat related to 2), and as I said, I have noticed some Japanese seem to suffer the most, aching for some dish from home. While I do sometimes miss chit chatting with people in stores and places that are less busy, I can't say that I want to move back home just for those things. Even more cable channels doesn't appeal to me as I get more entertainment off the net, which I can access anywhere. But that could be just me, but I think for many of the foreigners that stay here, it's not a big issue.

6) This is where I seem to miss out the most, but it could also be my personality. I make friends slowly, and I have done the same here. The big disadvantage here is that some of my friends have moved away over the last 11 years. Again, Japanese that have moved even within Japan (quite a few of them) make 'real' friends not that quickly, but of course their acquaintances probably far outnumber my own. Not sure if I miss these kind of people, as I still have plenty of workmates, etc. I think for many people who stay here, you make a circle of friends and hang on to them until they leave Japan.

7) This is somewhat related to 8) and 1) as using language usually makes things easier, though not always. My Japanese wife gets frustrated with the way many things work here, whether she understands the language or not.

8) Of course, sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between 7) and 8), but 8) is something you must do whereas 7) is something you could choose to follow/do. Of course you can also take the lazy way out and have your wife do some of those day to day things.

So what's the answer? Well of course there isn't a clear one, something I tried to point out earlier. And if you think there are no cultural issues involved here, I am surprised that anyone would think that. The whole topic seems culturally related.

[Dogen Z]

I'm surprised that most of the posters here who I thought were long time residents don't seem to realize that Japan has a very different society from where they came from. Pachipro had the most incisve reply to the OP. Japan's cultrue is quite different from Western culture, not simply limited to a different language and few quaint customs. Their cultural beliefs demand a degree of self suppression that most Westerners would find unbearable. "On," "giri," "tatemae," and "honne" are real pressures that Japanese society demands from its people. Japanese society also has a tendency to rank everything and everyone. So people are constantly trying to maintain or improve their ranking. If you've noticed, such ranking plays an important part of the language. Ranking involves education, occupation, professional affiliation, income, etc.
Foreigners are, of course, exempted from these pressures (except for ranking but that's for another thread). They do face the same problems that foreigners in any country face but, IMO, it is not as harsh as the daily pressures Japanese face. Speaking for myself, I'm having a rather good time :-), but I can imaging foreigners who are living near the bottom of the social scale are have an extremely trying time. (But why would they come here to live at that level? They can easily do that at home.)

[orochi]

Foreigners are, of course, exempted from these pressures (except for ranking but that's for another thread).

You're joking, right?
Maybe some foreigners are exempt, but so are some Japanese.

[Derfel]

You're joking, right?
Maybe some foreigners are exempt, but so are some Japanese.

Would you explain that please? As someone rather far away from Japan, I'd like to hear about that.

[Mars Man]

Good !! We finally have a good thread going, one in which we are starting to get terms defined and explained, so as to have a standard of understanding (consistency in base) upon which our presentations can be measured in equal degrees. I hope you can see that, gaijinalways san, and make every effort to stick to it.

The OP gives us the following:
For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?

Post number 34 gives us:
So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;

In the most specific and chronologically correct order, these are two different contingencies, and I had chosen the first as being the most applicable in the practical sense.

To be easy to live here, requires the ability (allowance) to live here as its most fundamental base. To live here easily, on the surface, requires having first been allowed to live here--as above. For that reason, the allowance is definitely primary.

All things thus are dependent upon the decision of the political state that Japan is, and this state most practially allows especially those born through those who have been born here, to live here autonomically. Because it is easier for those born here by those born here (maybe to the next generation) to live here than those not born here by those not born here (maybe to the next generation) most people here, by far, are Japanese nationals. (A random cross sample space throughout all the territory of Japan will quickly draw that out.)

Therefore, in the most practical and chronologically correct order, it is easier for Japanese to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese to live here. The OP allows this argumentation simply due to its lack of context and text. I really hope we all remain careful in this regards--OP quality.

[FrustratedDave]

I'm surprised that most of the posters here who I thought were long time residents don't seem to realize that Japan has a very different society from where they came from. Pachipro had the most incisve reply to the OP. Japan's cultrue is quite different from Western culture, not simply limited to a different language and few quaint customs. Their cultural beliefs demand a degree of self suppression that most Westerners would find unbearable. "On," "giri," "tatemae," and "honne" are real pressures that Japanese society demands from its people. Japanese society also has a tendency to rank everything and everyone. So people are constantly trying to maintain or improve their ranking. If you've noticed, such ranking plays an important part of the language. Ranking involves education, occupation, professional affiliation, income, etc.
Foreigners are, of course, exempted from these pressures (except for ranking but that's for another thread). They do face the same problems that foreigners in any country face but, IMO, it is not as harsh as the daily pressures Japanese face. Speaking for myself, I'm having a rather good time :-), but I can imaging foreigners who are living near the bottom of the social scale are have an extremely trying time. (But why would they come here to live at that level? They can easily do that at home.)How on earth can you come to that conclusion in only a few posts made.
I don't know who you are reffering to, but I would like to know who?

As for your second part I have put in bold. Have kids, join the Jichikai and so on then see how you are judged on all those things you have suggested by the neigbours. You need more experience here before you can be calling out long term foriengers.

Like I said earlier, the longer you stay the more difficult it becomes. Can't have a good time for the rest of your life once you have dependents.

[Pachipro]

But you see, Pachipro san, unless you can show, beyond a majority and reasonable doubt, that your definition and applicable necessity of 'easier' is the more correct one, we can all say that your conclusion is faulty, and to that degree, incorrect.

This is, in fact, the fallacy of the OP, which is, by extension, the absurdity of the question presented. I hope to get term definitions set here, as soon as possible...otherwise anything anyone presents will have practically no adhesive ability--simple a giant free-for-all. Glenski is correct (as I've said before, and has Mikawa Ossan) it's clearly and beyond all question that the answer is in favor of the Japanese national born and raised here!



Pachipro, just because you don't have to follow traditions etc, and can play the "gaijin card" doesn't make it easier UNLESS you are happy being a forever outsider a perpetual visitor. I wouldn't find that situation easy ever, and never would I want to endure it. I would love to fit in and be a real part of society not forever sentenced to linger in the outer fringes of society, being there but not being included.....


My conclusions are not meant to cover all foreigners Mars Man, it is based on my feelings and thoughts and what I have come to accept of Japan and the Japanese and their way of thinking. It is only my opinion and is not meant to convey the impression that everyone should think the way I do. Therefore, I do not think it is faulty. It is just how one understands Japan and her way of thinking.

Without a doubt it is "easier" for the born and bred Japanese to live in Japan if we are talking about everyday life and language and such. I thought the point of this thread was referring to culture and the demands of said culture on the people living there. In that case I still stand behind my feelings in that, because of the demands of the culture on the individual and the stress involved even for the Japanese, the life of a foreigner there is still better in that they do not have to, nor are they expected to, to conform to the traditions and customs even if they become a citizen and lived there for more that 20 years and can speak the language as well as any Japanese born there. Anyone who expects to be accepted by Japanese society as a whole is just kidding themselves and will end up frustrated IMO as, in my liufetime, it will never happen.

No matter what, IMO foreigners will never, ever, be considered Japanese or be wholly accepted except by their closest friends and family and I understand that. Society, as a whole, will not pyschologically accept it. As Mike Cash mentioned in a previous thread, Japan is a "jus sanguinis" (by blood) country....not a "jus soli" (by being born there, like the U.S.) country. And I might add, by living there for any number of years and speaking the language fluently. Even though his reply was referring to citizenship, I believe it holds true in how Japanese regard "round eyed" people. Therefore, if you do not have Japanese blood, society will not accept you as being "Japanese" regardless of how well you know the language or culture or your status. They will always look at you as a "gaijin" and will be amazed that you can even use chopsticks even after they know you have lived there for many years.

Was it not Maciamo, a former admin here who, having become fluent in the language and customs, left Japan after three years because he was so frustrated at never being fully accepted and always being looked at as a perpetual "gaijin"? In my eyes he was probably more Japanese than many Japanese and, even though he had a very firm grasp of the language and customs, he could not get over the fact or come to accept that he would never be accepted as "one of them". As with many foreigners, he thought that because he was fluent, understood the language and customs and could "play the game" he should be accepted and could not quite grasp the concept that, unlike the US or Europe, in Japan, "if you don't look like us, you could never be one of us"

It seems to be ingrained in the Japanese psyche. How many times have we seen threads of "Do the Japanese address you or you Japanese wife/friend, gf, bf, etc?" or "Why do Japanese address me in English when I am speaking fluent Japanese?" or "Why do the police only stop me and hassle me when Japanese are given a free pass?"

It is because we do not look like them and after 35 years of dealing with Japan and the Japanese, outside of your immediate family, it will never happen.

In my younger years, yes, I did play the "gaijin card", but I also learned and and finally accepted the fact that it is no use getting frustrated or angry at not being fully accepted as one of "them" because no matter how fluent I was or how I adhered to customs and tradition I was still considered the "henna gaijin" (weird foreigner).

Today, I do not play the "gaijin card", but when in Japan I have confidence in my speaking ability and adherence to customs and traditions and rarely encounter any problems. I expect to be stopped by the police, though it has not happened in more than twenty years. I expect to be turned down for an apartment when I finally move back permanently, I expect to be ooohed and ahhed at when I speak and use chopsticks or say I prefer to sleep on a futon etc.

So, can I live there till the end of my days being the perpetual outsider and never being fully accepted as Goldiegirl asked? Yes I can and I will probably enjoy it much as I have in the past because I can still live a full life in Japan with the knowledge that I will never be considered one of them even though I will probably be creamated and interred in Japan.

Anyone who has lived in Japan for any length of time (like more than 10 years) probably has come to understand this. Many will never accept it, but a few maybe will or have, like myself do and will have as rewarding a life there as they would in their own country. With all its frustrations and all the hoops gaijin have to jump through, I, personally, much prefer living there than where I presently am.

[gaijinalways]

Pachipro,

I am surprised that this is one of the few times you have seemed to read my mind, quite literally:cool:. I agree with what you say, and I quite emphasize with Maciamo who gave up on being accepted here. It is a very rare individual who is fully accepted here and given a Japanese name. I think Patrick Lafcadio Hearn is one of the few that I know of.

Marsman posted So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;
In the most specific and chronologically correct order, these are two different contingencies, and I had chosen the first as being the most applicable in the practical sense.

To be easy to live here, requires the ability (allowance) to live here as its most fundamental base. To live here easily, on the surface, requires having first been allowed to live here--as above. For that reason, the allowance is definitely primary.

Since we are talking about foreigners legally living here, I hardly see this as an issue. That and as long as you are gainfully employed (can even be self-sponsoring now) or a permanent resident like myself.

Marsman posted All things thus are dependent upon the decision of the political state that Japan is, and this state most practically allows especially those born through those who have been born here, to live here autonomically. Because it is easier for those born here by those born here (maybe to the next generation) to live here than those not born here by those not born here (maybe to the next generation) most people here, by far, are Japanese nationals. (A random cross sample space throughout all the territory of Japan will quickly draw that out.)

This seems a bit wordy here, sounds like you are trying to justify that it is easier to live in a country that you were born in, but I think that primarily makes it easier to 'be here', versus having to move here later. Though there are cases of Japanese born abroad that later move here, but I wouldn't imagine they would be good test cases for MM as they usually are not well adjusted here.

Marsman posted Therefore, in the most practical and chronologically correct order, it is easier for Japanese to live in Japan than it is for non-Japanese to live here. The OP allows this argumentation simply due to its lack of context and text. I really hope we all remain careful in this regards--OP quality.

Again, based on what? That they have a Japanese passport? As I said earlier, I wasn't sure who would have an easier time living here for all concerned, but I think for me and people like me, it is easier for us to live in Japan than Japanese.

If you only looked at numbers (as you seem to be doing), then of course we would think it is easier for Japanese to live here as there are more Japanese here (but this also has something to do with the immigration controls in this country).

But that's like saying that when there are more Spanish speaking individuals than Polish-Americans in the US, the Spanish speaking residents will have an easier time living there:okashii:? I would hardly come to that conclusion from just a numbers perspective.

[pipokun]

...
and I quite emphasize with Maciamo who gave up on being accepted here. It is a very rare individual who is fully accepted here and given a Japanese name. I think Patrick Lafcadio Hearn is one of the few that I know of.
...
Please do not mix up the reality and his (Maciamo) role here.

Do you know the non-Japanese community was surprised at the choice, to be naturalized here, of Hearn?
But now some do, some don't.

And do you know he was quite upset about the fair treatment by the J government who decreased his salary to the Japanese standard after his naturalization?

And he was a sort of founding fathers of the Japaneseness.
When someone like Hearn or other non-Japanese points out something about Japan/Japanese,
Good or at least neutral.

When innocent students at eikawa schools repeatedly tell you about the same thing,
Stupid or xenophobia

Life is still tough here.

[Glenski]

gaijinalways,
THANKS IMMENSELY for providing some clarification. Ok, we'll deal only with the groups of foreigners you said. Let's see your conditions and answers:

So we need to consider several areas of life when we talk about easily living in Japan;

1) Use of language
I agree.

2) Help of family members
I agree, but remember that Japanese people having Japanese friends in other parts of the same country is a heckuva lot different than a foreigner having foreign friends across the ocean, even if you stay in touch a lot. Costs more to see them, for one thing, and you don't have the opportunity to do it as often.

3)Employment. You wrote: "This is a mixed bag, though I would say for the foreigners that I am speaking about, we're often doing better than many average Japanese."
The average Japanese makes about 420,000 yen/month, according to a recent poll. In terms of income, how does the average foreigner make out? Teaching AND non-teaching jobs, please, in that mixed bag. You also wrote: "The problem sometimes is in calculating benefits which quite a few foreigners lose out on, but if they are here on short term expat packages they usually are doing more than okay." Ok, given. But, we still need to see an all-encompassing average from all sectors. Teachers can be here on short-term status and not even have an expat package!

4)Culture shock
Good, foreigners lose on this one, too.

5) Home sickness
Sorry, gotta disagree. You speak of a few Japanese and "many" foreigners. Let's stick to majorities, ok? Some foreigners have little to no problem, but some have MAJOR issues. How many are in both camps? It makes sense to assume that there are more foreigners suffering than Japanese. Japanese often have the option of moving back home much easier (due to proximity for one, and to the fact of business transfers every 2-3 years for another).

6) circle of friends and acquaintances
Not sure what side of the fence you stand with this one. You seem to conclude with "I think for many people who stay here, you make a circle of friends and hang on to them until they leave Japan." Again, the word "many" crops up. IMO, foreigners often lose their friends from the homeland if they stay here long-term. Always? Heckif I know! But out of sight, out of mind, while even Japanese keep in touch with nengajo with friends from childhood! I gotta say that despite this being a highly personal issue, foreigners stand more to lose from the homeland friends, and it's up to them to make new ones here, and that could be harder. Perhaps if you describe what you meant by the name of this category, we could discuss it better.

7) dealing with customs
The fact that your wife can't stand certain things is a weak argument. Do most Japanese feel the same way or not? Are more foreigners in that boat or not? Just by virtue of having to deal with a different culture, it seems logical to state that foreigners would have a more difficult time.

8) dealing with daily life
Yes, this is a tricky one, and perhaps we need to qualify the difference between it and #7 and not assume that every foreigner will have a Japanese spouse to pawn off some of the daily chores on, ok? Foreigners can slack off on certain social responsibilities in daily life and customs, too, while Japanese will feel more obligated to those responsibilities. Which is "easier"? Gotta define better!
Daily life: shopping can be harder for foreigners, getting a driver's license varies with nationality, dealing with bank loans is harder for us, and just the daily grind of certain discriminatory practices at work is harder on us.
Customs: nengajo? office party obligations? bowing? being courteous? Also, even if a foreigner brushes aside some of these and plays his "gaijin card" thinking he can get away with them, it may be true on the outside, but you can't really say what the true repercussions are from the Japanese they encounter. Example, how do your co-workers REALLY feel when you don't send a nengajo or do what the others do at an office party, etc.? What they say may not be how they feel.

[orochi]

Would you explain that please? As someone rather far away from Japan, I'd like to hear about that.
Because Japan isn't like it's made out to be on TV or in books.
It's just like any other country--there's a lot of diversity. It's just on a different scale than you're used to. So what might be extreme in Japan is merely moderate where you are. Etc. etc.
So if you want to fit in, you can. Or you can choose not to. But you have to be flexible and change your methods depending on who you are with and where you are (just like anywhere else on the planet).
This goes for Japanese or non-Japanese.

What they say may not be how they feel.

Wait! So everything I read on Livejournal about Japan might not be true?????
GASP!!!! Weeeeez!

[gaijinalways]

pipokun posted Please do not mix up the reality and his (Maciamo) role here.

Don't worry, I only pointed out how rarely it happens in Japan, a foreigner being fully accepted here and being considered Japanese. Maciamo perhaps would have had to bite his tongue a lot more to reach that state.

glenski posted THANKS IMMENSELY for providing some clarification.

No worries, we all discuss things differently. I was hoping to get things going before wading in. I have seen many threads start here without the long intros that a few people became famous for.

Glenski posted2) Help of family members
I agree, but remember that Japanese people having Japanese friends in other parts of the same country is a heckuva lot different than a foreigner having foreign friends across the ocean, even if you stay in touch a lot. Costs more to see them, for one thing, and you don't have the opportunity to do it as often.

2)family members and 6)friends are different. I would also take issue with the definition of fiends that is loosely applied in Japan sometimes. I definitely agree though, if both are farther away it makes it tougher to see them unless they are the traveling types or often come to Japan on business. I know sometimes when I had friends in the state that lived far away (when I was living there), I sometimes would see them as often as I do now:p!

Glenski posted3)Employment. You wrote: "This is a mixed bag, though I would say for the foreigners that I am speaking about, we're often doing better than many average Japanese."
The average Japanese makes about 420,000 yen/month, according to a recent poll. In terms of income, how does the average foreigner make out? Teaching AND non-teaching jobs, please, in that mixed bag. You also wrote: "The problem sometimes is in calculating benefits which quite a few foreigners lose out on, but if they are here on short term expat packages they usually are doing more than okay." Ok, given. But, we still need to see an all-encompassing average from all sectors. Teachers can be here on short-term status and not even have an expat package!

Are you including the NEETs, parasite children, and the freeters? I think that would bring the average Japanese income down a lot. Remember, generally foreigners that are like that here are either married to a rich honey, live with others (there is a reason they are called parasites) or are forced to leave the country.

How short a term are you thinking? Like the one year contracts I keep getting:blush:?

Glenski posted5) Home sickness
Sorry, gotta disagree. You speak of a few Japanese and "many" foreigners. Let's stick to majorities, ok? Some foreigners have little to no problem, but some have MAJOR issues. How many are in both camps? It makes sense to assume that there are more foreigners suffering than Japanese. Japanese often have the option of moving back home much easier (due to proximity for one, and to the fact of business transfers every 2-3 years for another).

I don't know either, as a lot of the foreigners who have big issues usually leave or try to come for shorter periods of time. I'm not sure there are more foreigners than Japanese suffering. As I hinted at before, a lot of Japanese seem to have 'local' blood raging in their veins. They seem to get a lot more homesick than I do. Remember some of these people are the same ones who get homesick 1 week out of the country!

As to the transfers, those are not a given, and certainly may be farther away than closer in some cases. Didn't you ever wonder why so many wives seemed to be 'merry widows'?

I'd like to add a 9th category as well, mental health. I really do think that a lot of Japanese area lot more stressed out. Of course this is difficult to prove, but let's compare the % of foreigners who die from karoshi or who become hikikomori? And it comes down to what we were talking about earlier,

Ocean Dude posted"On," "giri," "tatemae," and "honne" are real pressures that Japanese society demands from its people. Japanese society also has a tendency to rank everything and everyone. So people are constantly trying to maintain or improve their ranking. If you've noticed, such ranking plays an important part of the language. Ranking involves education, occupation, professional affiliation, income, etc.

So these kinds of things tend to have people mentally over-processing on status markers. I know there are people like that in every country, but it's much more prevalent here.

Glenski posted6) circle of friends and acquaintances
Not sure what side of the fence you stand with this one. You seem to conclude with "I think for many people who stay here, you make a circle of friends and hang on to them until they leave Japan." Again, the word "many" crops up. IMO, foreigners often lose their friends from the homeland if they stay here long-term. Always? Heckif I know! But out of sight, out of mind, while even Japanese keep in touch with nengajo with friends from childhood! I gotta say that despite this being a highly personal issue, foreigners stand more to lose from the homeland friends, and it's up to them to make new ones here, and that could be harder. Perhaps if you describe what you meant by the name of this category, we could discuss it better.

As I mentioned earlier, quality and your definition of friendship is probably quite different from the average Japanese. My wife sees some of her friends that live 2 hours away, perhaps 2-3 times a year. Supposedly everyone is busy. As to meeting 1 -2 times a year, yet you really know very little about them, how friendly is that (ex. a students tells me he is close to his brother, and I ask, "Oh what does your brother do?", and the student answers "I don't know?!" )???

Glenski posted7) dealing with customs
The fact that your wife can't stand certain things is a weak argument. Do most Japanese feel the same way or not? Are more foreigners in that boat or not? Just by virtue of having to deal with a different culture, it seems logical to state that foreigners would have a more difficult time.

No, I was just pointing out to another poster that just because you're from a country doesn't mean you like all the customs. The difference is, I can more easily try and adjust my behaviour than a Japanese person can who may keep repeating the 'Shoganai' mantra and (and wondering why things change so slowly:blush:).


Glenski posted8) dealing with daily life
Yes, this is a tricky one, and perhaps we need to qualify the difference between it and #7 and not assume that every foreigner will have a Japanese spouse to pawn off some of the daily chores on, ok? Foreigners can slack off on certain social responsibilities in daily life and customs, too, while Japanese will feel more obligated to those responsibilities. Which is "easier"? Gotta define better!
Daily life: shopping can be harder for foreigners, getting a driver's license varies with nationality, dealing with bank loans is harder for us, and just the daily grind of certain discriminatory practices at work is harder on us.
Customs: nengajo? office party obligations? bowing? being courteous? Also, even if a foreigner brushes aside some of these and plays his "gaijin card" thinking he can get away with them, it may be true on the outside, but you can't really say what the true repercussions are from the Japanese they encounter. Example, how do your co-workers REALLY feel when you don't send a nengajo or do what the others do at an office party, etc.? What they say may not be how they feel.

Since when is being obligated easier (I feel a bushido moment coming on:p)? But how is that different, people not saying what they feel? That's usual with women, in Japan and elsewhere.

I know, I Know, pawning off chores on others is so..so..don't worry..I'll think of something to call it. But I do still wash the dishes and take out the garbage, so maybe I'm not getting out of much.

Discrimination, yes this is one that never goes away. But remember it works two ways, kind of like the god and dog experiences.

But a big thanks to Glenski, he's always a stickler and makes me think.

[Glenski]

Are you including the NEETs, parasite children, and the freeters? I think that would bring the average Japanese income down a lot. Remember, generally foreigners that are like that here are either married to a rich honey, live with others (there is a reason they are called parasites) or are forced to leave the country.All I'm doing is quoting what I saw on the news about 6 months ago. Who can say what people were included in the survey? I think they were referring only to FT workers, which yes, may include parasite singles and such, but it is about the only round average figure you can get as an official fact to go on. We still make less, I think.

How short a term are you thinking? Like the one year contracts I keep getting?I make no definitions about this. What do you think? You talk about foreigners having it "easier", but make no other qualifications. Perhaps we should define that foreigner as one who is here for life, and then save our discussions for specific breakdowns with people who have been here 5 years or less, and more than 5 years. Could just as easily be 3 years if you want to consider people who may have gone through at least one 3-year visa renewal.

I don't know either, as a lot of the foreigners who have big issues usually leave or try to come for shorter periods of time. I'm not sure there are more foreigners than Japanese suffering. As I hinted at before, a lot of Japanese seem to have 'local' blood raging in their veins. They seem to get a lot more homesick than I do. Remember some of these people are the same ones who get homesick 1 week out of the country! I thought we were referring to people in country, not out. Yes, people may not like having the transfers away from their home town, but neither of us can truly say just how strong those feelings are. All I can say in defense is that Japanese are more prone to "gaman" and "shoganai", so by that virtue alone, they can take it better than we foreigners who live thousands of miles from home.

I'd like to add a 9th category as well, mental health. I really do think that a lot of Japanese area lot more stressed out. Of course this is difficult to prove, but let's compare the % of foreigners who die from karoshi or who become hikikomori? You know as well as I the answer to that, but it is a skewed point since the vast majority of foreigners don't even get placed in those situations. Yes, that makes it easier on us, but is mental health limited to that statistic alone? Culture shock certainly enters into the equation.

As I mentioned earlier, quality and your definition of friendship is probably quite different from the average Japanese.Agreed. Most foreigners, because of their culture, have a different concept than most Japanese. Just seeing friends is one thing, too. With email and phones and nengajo, some Japanese can feel perfectly content calling people "friend" that way for ages.

As to meeting 1 -2 times a year, yet you really know very little about them, how friendly is that (ex. a students tells me he is close to his brother, and I ask, "Oh what does your brother do?", and the student answers "I don't know?!" )???LOL. Yup, I hear you! However, I think that point is a little different from whether they consider themselves close or not. Have had many students (housewives) who couldn't answer the same question!

Glenski posted
No, i was just pointing out to another poster that just because you're from a country doesn't mean you like all the customs. The difference is, I can more easily try and adjust my behaviour than a Japanese person can who may keep repeating the 'Shoganai' mantra and (and wondering why things change so slowly:blush:).
Glenski posted
Since when is being obligated easier (I feel a bushido moment coming on:p)? But how is that different, people not saying what they feel? That's usual with women, in Japan and elsewhere.
I know, I Know, pawning off chores on others is so..so..don't worry..I'll think of something to call it. But I do still wash the dishes and take out the garbage, so maybe I'm not getting out of much.
Discrimination, yes this is one that never goes away. But remember it works two ways, kind of like the god and dog experiences.
But a big thanks to Glenski, he's always a stickler and makes me think.[/QUOTE]

re:customs
The difference is, I can more easily try and adjust my behaviour than a Japanese person can who may keep repeating the 'Shoganai' mantra and (and wondering why things change so slowlyWell, that's you. Many (again, an undefined percentage) foreigners don't adjust. And, the shoganai from Japanese can be not a stressful response, you know. It can just as easily be a self-defense cultural mechanism that causes no pain at all.

Re: daily living
Since when is being obligated easierPerhaps mine was a poor choice of words. Not obligated but accepting. Like I just wrote above about shoganai. Mind you, this is just a foreigner's perspective on the Japanese perspective. I don't think either of us knows enough to say either way, but this thread is just an opinion piece anyway.

Discrimination, yes this is one that never goes away. But remember it works two ways, kind of like the god and dog experiences.Perhaps 2 ways. Not sure what you mean. However, the discrimination here (when the foreigners perceive it, of course) is one-way against foreigners. Can't get around that. Japanese are not told they can't enter bathhouses, or that their jobs are contract only, or that they can't rent apartments because their food stinks, etc.

But a big thanks to Glenski, he's always a stickler and makes me think.And, thanks in return for not blowing up over my remarks. I try to debate civilly and rationally. Yours is a very difficult topic without much in the way of survey data to help us. (And, I'm sure you know what I mean when I say that I find Japanese statistics less than adequate to represent reality in lots of cases anyway.)

[gaijinalways]

Totally agree with you Glenski, my theory has little statistical data offered so far in support. I'm not sure if I have the time or inclination to pull up the dirt now, so to speak. But I will start digging.

Glenski posted All I'm doing is quoting what I saw on the news about 6 months ago. Who can say what people were included in the survey? I think they were referring only to FT workers, which yes, may include parasite singles and such, but it is about the only round average figure you can get as an official fact to go on. We still make less, I think.

If you include the parasites, some of who are not working at all, the average income would drop quite a bit (and even more when we add in NEETs as they are sinmply unemployed).

Glenski postedI make no definitions about this. What do you think? You talk about foreigners having it "easier", but make no other qualifications. Perhaps we should define that foreigner as one who is here for life, and then save our discussions for specific breakdowns with people who have been here 5 years or less, and more than 5 years. Could just as easily be 3 years if you want to consider people who may have gone through at least one 3-year visa renewal.

Probably it would be better to look at people here who finished at least three years so as not to skew data with people who just study here or quickly leave as they find they can't cut it.

Glenski postedI thought we were referring to people in country, not out. Yes, people may not like having the transfers away from their home town, but neither of us can truly say just how strong those feelings are. All I can say in defense is that Japanese are more prone to "gaman" and "shoganai", so by that virtue alone, they can take it better than we foreigners who live thousands of miles from home.

But if people are more prone to doing something, does that mean they like it? Yes, the strength of a feeling such as homesickness is hard to measure, I've just relating what I've heard from a few thousand students.

Glenski postedYou know as well as I the answer to that, but it is a skewed point since the vast majority of foreigners don't even get placed in those situations. Yes, that makes it easier on us, but is mental health limited to that statistic alone? Culture shock certainly enters into the equation.

They don't get placed in them or they don't allow themselves to be placed in those situations? Subtle difference, but one that says a lot about the influence of free will and a sometime rejection of an essence of group dynamics that is often harmful to individuals.

Glenski postedAgreed. Most foreigners, because of their culture, have a different concept than most Japanese. Just seeing friends is one thing, too. With email and phones and nengajo, some Japanese can feel perfectly content calling people "friend" that way for ages.

So as I said, are they really friends, someone you can count on when the chips are down?

Glenski postedAnd, the shoganai from Japanese can be not a stressful response, you know. It can just as easily be a self-defense cultural mechanism that causes no pain at all.

But I would claim in a way it does harm them, as it perpetuates the idea in some cases that things are beyond our control, when sometimes they obviously are not. There is a big difference between can't be bothered because I see no relation to you and/or no benefit in doing something and doing something that will help both parties (the doer and the receiver), but may irritate some others.

Glenski postedPerhaps mine was a poor choice of words. Not obligated but accepting. Like I just wrote above about shoganai. Mind you, this is just a foreigner's perspective on the Japanese perspective. I don't think either of us knows enough to say either way, but this thread is just an opinion piece anyway.

True opinion piece, but I think for many Japanese they feel truly obligated, and they often feel weighed down by these obligations to such an extent that they over-rationalize them. Hence you get karoshi, and social drop outs, people who can't deal with the many obligations thrust on them by Japanese society.


Glenski postedPerhaps 2 ways. Not sure what you mean. However, the discrimination here (when the foreigners perceive it, of course) is one-way against foreigners. Can't get around that. Japanese are not told they can't enter bathhouses, or that their jobs are contract only, or that they can't rent apartments because their food stinks, etc.

Those two extremes of treatment are what Charisma man and the foreign celebrity encompass (on the great end) and what the overt rejection of applications for housing, etc represent on the other end. I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories, though I think Japan sometimes does better than when I was living with the Chinese in Hong Kong.

[orochi]

If you include the parasites, some of who are not working at all, the average income would drop quite a bit (and even more when we add in NEETs as they are sinmply unemployed).

Why would you include the unemployed in a survey of the employed?
If you pull out the non-working Japanese, then you have to pull out the non-working non-Japanese. Then you have to adjust for population size differences.

The likely result is that in Japan, the average Japanese person is still making more than the average non-Japanese person.

I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories

Anybody still taking this guy seriously?

[bruno]

Anybody still taking this guy seriously?

None of both , just blablabla !!:p

[gaijinalways]

Orochi posted Why would you include the unemployed in a survey of the employed?
If you pull out the non-working Japanese, then you have to pull out the non-working non-Japanese. Then you have to adjust for population size differences.

The likely result is that in Japan, the average Japanese person is still making more than the average non-Japanese person.

One, because they could be employed, but they choose not to be. Two, no, because foreigners tend not to move here to live off of their parents, so the average Japanese income in that case would be much lower..


gaijinalways posted I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories

Orochi posted in responseAnybody still taking this guy seriously?

I have to wonder how long both of you have been in Japan. Take some time to search some of the other related threads where we have talked about this issue.

This would be one area where Japanese have it easier, they generally are treated by other Japanese in a more consistent fashion. In my opinion, foreigners are generally not.

[orochi]

One, because they could be employed, but they choose not to be. Two, no, because foreigners tend not to move here to live off of their parents, so the average Japanese income in that case would be much lower.

Wait a minute.
But the same Japanese you are talking about could be employed as well--but choose not to be. Nothing's different.

In my opinion, foreigners are generally not.

Got any evidence--or at the very least anecdotes, do back that up?

[Glenski]

If you include the parasites, some of who are not working at all, the average income would drop quite a bit (and even more when we add in NEETs as they are sinmply unemployed).I'm sure the survey did not include unemployed people. Wouldn't make sense.

Re: karoshi
They don't get placed in them or they don't allow themselves to be placed in those situations? Subtle difference, but one that says a lot about the influence of free will and a sometime rejection of an essence of group dynamics that is often harmful to individuals.I think it's pretty clear that foreigners don't get put in the horribly overworked situations that cause Japanese people to kill themselves or to be overworked literally to death.

So as I said, are they really friends, someone you can count on when the chips are down?That's a clarification needed up front. In fact, how many friends have you ever had in your life who fit the above description? I would hazard a guess that very few people could say more than a handful of such friends. So, I have to go back to my perspective of just saying friends are friends. If you want to qualify your description differently, we can talk more.

Re: the shoganai attitude being not so stressful
But I would claim in a way it does harm them, as it perpetuates the idea in some cases that things are beyond our control, when sometimes they obviously are not. There is a big difference between can't be bothered because I see no relation to you and/or no benefit in doing something and doing something that will help both parties (the doer and the receiver), but may irritate some others.But most of life is beyond our control! The Japanese just seem to accept it more than a lot of foreign cultures do. Being used to that is what I meant by accepting it and not feeling the stress so much. Use any example you want. A foreigner is more likely to be pissed off at having to wait at a taxi station after midnight than a Japanese is. Foreigners b!tch more about any governmental red tape they encounter.

More on accepting the obligations of society and saying shoganai:
I think for many Japanese they feel truly obligated, and they often feel weighed down by these obligations to such an extent that they over-rationalize them.I don't think either of us can state with certainty whether the Japanese over-rationalize anything here. For another thing, you know as well as I that their rationality is often different than ours.

Hence you get karoshi, and social drop outs, people who can't deal with the many obligations thrust on them by Japanese society.Other than karoshi, you get the same social drop outs and people who can't deal with society's obligations back home.

Re: discrimination
Those two extremes of treatment are what Charisma man and the foreign celebrity encompass (on the great end) and what the overt rejection of applications for housing, etc represent on the other end. I am sure you have encountered this in some situations, in some cases you are treated like a god, in others you are treated like man's best friend. The treatment rarely falls into the between categories, though I think Japan sometimes does better than when I was living with the Chinese in Hong Kong.I don't see how you can say that there is no gray area here. I would most definitely say so! Don't confuse the issue with the "Charisma man" scenario, when the issue is the negative side of discrimination, whether a foreigner feels it more strongly than a Japanese. The foreigner loses out hands down, whether or not he/she falls into the "Charisma man" category.

If you want to harp on Charisma man, ok, let's look at just that one. You seem to see it as a positive thing (compared to being treated unfairly at a rental agency). I don't. Charisma men are guys who get more shots at women in Japan just because so many Japanese women find them attractive in some way (not just by physical appearance). This is not always positive. Yes, I've been approached on the street for sex just because I'm a foreigner. I hated that. I've also been set up (or nearly so) by clients with female partners just because they seem to think that's acceptable or that I wanted it, when neither was the actual truth. It was and is embarrassing to me, and it was very demeaning to me. I couldn't see it as positive at all to be placed in any of those situations. If we veer off my personal experiences for a moment, how about the situations we've both heard from "Charisma men", who get into (gaijin) bar brawls over the women that chase them, or who catch the multitude of STDs that are floating around the country? Also, what about the reputation of teachers or foreigners in general that follow such Charisma men who take advantage of the situation where eager women follow them? Reputation from the office staff, I mean, not from the hungry starry-eyed women. Not positive at all.

Orochi called you on this statement:
This would be one area where Japanese have it easier, they generally are treated by other Japanese in a more consistent fashion. In my opinion, foreigners are generally not. I see the above as one of your main thoughts in starting this whole thread. The 10 or so clarified points we have dealt with. But, I feel you are going to need to clarify the above even more, perhaps to the extent that you list other issues. Consistent in what?

[Derfel]

May I ask how do Japanese people regard foreign artists? Artists that live there for years, so not like going there for an exhibition, to learn a certain thing, but artists who work there, be they musicians, actors, painters, sculptors, directors, etc.. Though I don't mean celebrities, just plain people.
Artists seem to belong to a different "class" in many countries, not really a different class, but people view them a bit differently, artists who work full time as artists, is that the case in Japan, or they're expected to behave and take the sh*t like any other person?

Oh yeah, another question, what about diplomats and delegates of international organs such as the Red Cross or say, the Knights of Malta?

[gaijinalways]

Glenski posted
I'm sure the survey did not include unemployed people. Wouldn't make sense.

But you have to include these people if you want to talk about an income average. Can I help it if their incomes are low or zero?


Glenski, I like your charisma Man stories, pretty funny. On a more serious note, I mean that some people here basically don't have to work that hard in their jobs because they are liked by people because of how they look and act, basically not Japanese. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in America, but let's face it, if you're a Japanese person in America, people are hardly going to be falling over each other to talk to you.

So, who are these people?

No, they're not all sex fiends, some of them just play the game of 'henna gaijin' very well.

Do they make life easier for the rest of us?

Well, maybe not, though I suppose you might seem fairly normal to some people if you don't copy the things that they do. Sometimes this leads to behaviour that would be slammed in most other places but is acceptable here, as in well he/she is a 'henna gaijin', so it's okay.

Glenski posted, I see the above as one of your main thoughts in starting this whole thread. The 10 or so clarified points we have dealt with. But, I feel you are going to need to clarify the above even more, perhaps to the extent that you list other issues. Consistent in what?

I've just found that sometimes the same person will attempt to charm my socks off, where as in other situations I am suddenly Mr. Evil. In other words, not much consistency. Hey, maybe it's my experience, but I have seen it echoed by others. It is also a given often that Japanese people you relate to will often relate differently to you when you're alone than when you're with other Japanese. Maybe group personality influence?

Glenski postedBut most of life is beyond our control! The Japanese just seem to accept it more than a lot of foreign cultures do. Being used to that is what I meant by accepting it and not feeling the stress so much. Use any example you want. A foreigner is more likely to be pissed off at having to wait at a taxi station after midnight than a Japanese is. Foreigners b!tch more about any governmental red tape they encounter.

No, I'm talking about things that are. I know the difference between things I can't control and ones I can. I think you're thinking more of people who are superstitious (which a lot of Japanese are) and thinking that they can't change a situation (and mostly they are right because they believe they can't because of all their social obligations) when they really can.

Voicing complaints versus not voicing them is another matter.

Glenski postedI don't think either of us can state with certainty whether the Japanese over-rationalize anything here. For another thing, you know as well as I that their rationality is often different than ours.

I would say that Japanese worry about a lot more things than I would ever consider worrying about. And that brings a higher stress level, something born out by working oneself to death and a very high suicide rate in a developed country.

Glenski postedOther than karoshi, you get the same social drop outs and people who can't deal with society's obligations back home.

Of course, but I don't think it's the same percentage. Remember here it's more likely that your parents would let you stay in your bedroom for 4 years at age 30 and not think it's unusual (nor often consider having you get counseling or actually go out and try and get a JOB).

Have you met many of them back home? I can only think of a few, here I seem to meet some regularly every week. I don't hardly remember anyone taking 8 years to graduate from uni, yet here I have classes chock full of such characters.

Maybe I just came to Japan at a bad time. Should have been here in the bubble period I suppose....

[Glenski]

gaijinalways posted
But you have to include these people if you want to talk about an income average. Can I help it if their incomes are low or zero?

Sorry, I didn't make the survey, I just report it. You gotta compare apples and apples. Compare all foreigners of legal working age with all Japanese of the same age, whether they have jobs or not. I can't do that. Let's just report those who do work. I'm not going to look up umemployment stats on a Sunday morning, but that might be another point to bring into the equation.

gaijinalways, I like your charisma Man stories, pretty funny. On a more serious note, I mean that some people here basically don't have to work that hard in their jobs because they are liked by people because of how they look and act, basically not Japanese.

Again, there's that indeterminant word "some" again. Yes, your definition fits a lot of eikaiwa instructors and ALTs. Foreigners hold other jobs here, too.

So, who are these people?
No, they're not all sex fiends, some of them just play the game of 'henna gaijin' very well.
Do they make life easier for the rest of us?
Well, maybe not, though I suppose you might seem fairly normal to some people if you don't copy the things that they do. Sometimes this leads to behaviour that would be slammed in most other places but is acceptable here, as in well he/she is a 'henna gaijin', so it's okay.I really don't see any of the above as relevant. There are strange people everywhere. Seems that what you are describing above is either a case where a foreigner knowingly plays his gaijin card in hopes that the shy Japanese won't say anything, or he is just plain weird and does/doesn't consciously think about what the Japanese think. (Case in point: a foreigner who parades around in full kimono dress daily. A guy on another forum said he does that.)

gaijinalways posted,
I've just found that sometimes the same person will attempt to charm my socks off, where as in other situations I am suddenly Mr. Evil. In other words, not much consistency. Hey, maybe it's my experience, but I have seen it echoed by others. It is also a given often that Japanese people you relate to will often relate differently to you when you're alone than when you're with other Japanese. Maybe group personality influence?

My initial reactions to the above are:
1)yes, personality influence (and one that could equally be shown in any country)
2) the above is n=1 (only your experience)


gaijinalways posted
No, I'm talking about things that are [under control]. I know the difference between things I can't control and ones I can.

Give me an example of each.

I think you're thinking more of people who are superstitious (which a lot of Japanese are) and thinking that they can't change a situation (and mostly they are right because they believe they can't because of all their social obligations) when they really can. That's not superstitious.

gaijinalways posted
I would say that Japanese worry about a lot more things than I would ever consider worrying about. And that brings a higher stress level, something born out by working oneself to death and a very high suicide rate in a developed country.

The same could be said in reverse. Different cultures have different values, thus different reasons to be stressed. You can't prove Japanese worry about more things than foreigners.

Re: social misfits and dropouts
gaijinalways posted
Of course, but I don't think it's the same percentage. Remember here it's more likely that your parents would let you stay in your bedroom for 4 years at age 30 and not think it's unusual (nor often consider having you get counseling or actually go out and try and get a JOB).

Again, I don't have stats on this. I agree that Japan has probably more people living at home than my homeland, but what does this prove anyway? Most of your points on this topic have easily been refuted or put into question, so it all boils down to opinion based on one's experiences (unless either of us pulls out some social survey data).

Have you met many of them back home? I can only think of a few, here I seem to meet some regularly every week. I don't hardly remember anyone taking 8 years to graduate from uni, yet here I have classes chock full of such characters. Have I ever met a social dropout? Gee, kinda hard to do if he has dropped out of society! Have I met some weird people? Yes, in every country I've visited! Have I met uni students who take 8 years to graduate? No, in no country where I've visited or lived, but I've known some who take an extra year or 2.

Is life in Japan easier for Japanese or foreigners?
Define life and easier.
I would say that for any foreigner in any country, life is harder. In Japan, the main problems are language and certain customs (social and business), but on to of that there is the issue of jobs (and visas). These are at the top of the list of frustrations. To me, they seem to outweigh most other items.


Maybe I just came to Japan at a bad time. Should have been here in the bubble period I suppose....Bad time for you or for foreigners in Japan? To survive, one has to learn to adapt, shrug off the things beyond one's control (when possible and necessary), and move on with life. It's a basic tenet for living anywhere, but in a foreign land, even the little problems can be augmented by the isolation of living away from one's homeland and the differences in language and customs. THERE'S your major source of stress.

Take Sunday off, my friend. It's going to be a beautiful day. Enjoy it stress-free. I will, until I have to tackle my student's homework.

[gaijinalways]

Glenski, no worries mate, I corrected my students' homework on Friday.

Glenski posted Sorry, I didn't make the survey, I just report it. You gotta compare apples and apples. Compare all foreigners of legal working age with all Japanese of the same age, whether they have jobs or not. I can't do that. Let's just report those who do work.

Again, then at least include the underemployed here as I stated. If you have to estimate their numbers, so be it, but you can't pretend these people don't exist.

Glenski postedAgain, there's that indeterminant word "some" again. Yes, your definition fits a lot of eikaiwa instructors and ALTs. Foreigners hold other jobs here, too.

No, I was including foreigners who hold other jobs, but it is true the majority work in the education/edutainment industries.

Glenski postedI really don't see any of the above as relevant. There are strange people everywhere. Seems that what you are describing above is either a case where a foreigner knowingly plays his gaijin card in hopes that the shy Japanese won't say anything, or he is just plain weird and does/doesn't consciously think about what the Japanese think. (Case in point: a foreigner who parades around in full kimono dress daily. A guy on another forum said he does that.)

In other words, it's okay. Of course you can talk about cultural acceptance, but I would state that we (foreigners) are given a lot more leeway than Japanese when it comes to acceptable behaviour here in Japan. Talk to your coworkers and other foreign friends, perhaps you're missing something living in Hokkaido (luckily or unluckily:p).

gaijinalways posted,
I've just found that sometimes the same person will attempt to charm my socks off, where as in other situations I am suddenly Mr. Evil. In other words, not much consistency. Hey, maybe it's my experience, but I have seen it echoed by others. It is also a given often that Japanese people you relate to will often relate differently to you when you're alone than when you're with other Japanese. Maybe group personality influence?

Glenski posted
My initial reactions to the above are:
1)yes, personality influence (and one that could equally be shown in any country)
2) the above is n=1 (only your experience)


Again, talk to others, it hasn't been just my experience.

gaijinalways posted
I would say that Japanese worry about a lot more things than I would ever consider worrying about. And that brings a higher stress level, something born out by working oneself to death and a very high suicide rate in a developed country.

Glenski posted
The same could be said in reverse. Different cultures have different values, thus different reasons to be stressed. You can't prove Japanese worry about more things than foreigners.

Ask your students, take a little time to hear what they worry about. Anxiety and shame are tied together in a lot of things here. Again, karoshi and a high suicide rate point to something; I'm giving one possible interpretation. I'd be curious to hear yours.


Re: social misfits and dropouts
gaijinalways posted
Of course, but I don't think it's the same percentage. Remember here it's more likely that your parents would let you stay in your bedroom for 4 years at age 30 and not think it's unusual (nor often consider having you get counseling or actually go out and try and get a JOB).

Glenski posted
Again, I don't have stats on this. I agree that Japan has probably more people living at home than my homeland, but what does this prove anyway? Most of your points on this topic have easily been refuted or put into question, so it all boils down to opinion based on one's experiences (unless either of us pulls out some social survey data).

Glenski, it proves that there are quite a few people not working or underemployed who can't deal with stress, thus not living very easily, yes? I thought that conclusion would be kind of obvious.

Not sure what has been clearly refuted unless you are referring to Marsman's passport numbers argument.


Have I ever met a social dropout? Gee, kinda hard to do if he has dropped out of society! Have I met some weird people? Yes, in every country I've visited! Have I met uni students who take 8 years to graduate? No, in no country where I've visited or lived, but I've known some who take an extra year or 2.

And yes you can meet social drop outs, most of them do sometimes go out, they are legion in Japan, and reported on regularly in the media. Percentage wise I couldn't tell you, but certainly they exist in much larger number in Japan. It would be very convenient to ignore them, but it's not a realistic conclusion that you're going to reach then.

I'm surprised you haven't met the people on the '8 year program' to graduate. Talk to some university personnel, and you'll find that most likely your university has an eight year policy for graduation, as Japan has a problem with people never finishing university. I teach a number of what we call 'repeaters'. In some cases they are integrated into regular classes, in others they are in special classes together. Please note that these are not people attending uni part-time, they are full time students!


gaijinalways posted
No, I'm talking about things that are [under control]. I know the difference between things I can't control and ones I can.

Glenski posted
Give me an example of each.

I think you're thinking more of people who are superstitious (which a lot of Japanese are) and thinking that they can't change a situation (and mostly they are right because they believe they can't because of all their social obligations) when they really can.
That's not superstitious.

Sorry, you're right, that was the wrong word to use just as rationalizing was mistaken, better would be 'anxiety-laden'. What I mean by superstitious is the belief that many outcomes can't be influenced and that praying at the temple alone will influence the outcome.

I'm surprised you need examples, perhaps the bureaucracy at your college is different. Looking for employment would be a prime one. I often hear from people that they can't change their jobs. But when you start looking for reasons, you find out that,

a) they are afraid to change employers, b) they often might still have a mistaken belief that their employer will keep them until they retire (used to be true) c) they haven't made any effort to try and find another job, hence have no idea if it is possible. d) they can't because their family wants them to stay at that job e) they can't because they feel loyal to the company:okashii:

This would be similar when you ask your students if they would ever work outside of Japan. Some of them can't fathom that it is a possibility, assuming they work in an industry where it is more likely they would be able to do so.

1) I couldn't live outside of Japan 2) I would miss my friends/family 3) I wouldn't be able to eat Japanese food 4) I wouldn't be able to do Japanese 'things':souka:

Maybe I just came to Japan at a bad time. Should have been here in the bubble period I suppose....

This was an ironic question, as I think it's bad for Japanese now (a higher stress time) than the bubble time. Of course during the bubble time it would have been even better for me (in my mind at least) as it would have been easier to make more money, though drinking coffee would have been more difficult (and getting stronger deodorant)! So I would have been richer, smellier, and less awake, but probably even less stressed than now.

Bad time for you or for foreigners in Japan? To survive, one has to learn to adapt, shrug off the things beyond one's control (when possible and necessary), and move on with life. It's a basic tenet for living anywhere, but in a foreign land, even the little problems can be augmented by the isolation of living away from one's homeland and the differences in language and customs. THERE'S your major source of stress.

Customs and language, yes they can be killers, but as I said earlier, for the permanent visitors they can often work in your favor and certainly be a less of an influence and/or source of stress.

Cheers Glenski, discussion is always a good mental exercise.

[bruno]

Boring teacher's talk !
Btw. I have PR-status too ! But never been teacher !:-)

[FrustratedDave]

Boring teacher's talk !
Btw. I have PR-status too ! But never been teacher !:-)
Why is it that you never have anything intelligent to say?

[Glenski]

gaijinalways,
It looks like the conversation here has come down to little more than 2 people's opinions. Frankly, I'm not really willing to carry this on any longer. June is a terribly busy month for me. Since no one else here is willing to discuss, I hope you don't mind if I bow out for more urgent matters. I'd like to pull up some stats to support either of our sides, but I just don't have the time.

My answer stands. I feel Japanese have it easier. I feel many/most of your answers to the contrary are a foreigner's viewpoint of how Japanese feel. So are mine. Can we agree to disagree?

[gaijinalways]

No worries mate, I've been sick and busy, hence my slow reply. There's always more than one way to skin a cat, too bad we had little participation, but that's life.

Maybe the topic wasn't controversial enough for our regular members.

[Dogen Z]

This was a more meaningful thread than I expected. Thanks, guys, especially Gaijinalways.

One thing, though, you shouldn't try to compare average gaijin and average Japanese. I don't think such people don't exist. You'll have to compare yourself with an equivalent counterpart for a good comparison.

But my suggestion is don't compare...neither Japanese or gaijin are living an easy life here. It's not a laid back country-- never was. So ganbatte and just consider whether or not you're life is better in ways that are important to you because you came here.

In my case, I find life much more rich and interesting than at back home...but that's because of my personal history and beliefs...and I'm willing to put up with the sometimes not inconsiderable frustrations.

[gaijinalways]

Actually this thread was very meaningful, just some people can't get their heads around someone asking the question. I think in some countries the locals would have definate advantages, but in Japan I don't think it's so.

[gaijinalways]

One thing, though, you shouldn't try to compare average gaijin and average Japanese. I don't think such people don't exist. You'll have to compare yourself with an equivalent counterpart for a good comparison.

Well, they are generalizations, which often you have to make to compare anything.

But my suggestion is don't compare...neither Japanese or gaijin are living an easy life here. It's not a laid back country-- never was.

That's hard to say, but I would probably agree. But certainly as foreigners we can conveniently ignore some things the Japanese hold 'sacred' for no other reason than 'that's the way we have always done it'.

In my case, I find life much more rich and interesting than at back home...but that's because of my personal history and beliefs...and I'm willing to put up with the sometimes not inconsiderable frustrations.

The same, it still doesn't mean I can't talk about and compare things.

[FrustratedDave]

One thing bugged me from an earlier post about average incomes. I think someone said that the average income for a non-Japanese was about ￥420,000 per month. Monthly income comparisons are useless, you have to go on a yearly salary comparrisons, due to the fact that most Japanese companies have the bonus system in place and this can vary greatly, so much so that half a persons salary can be in the form of a bonus which would make their monthly income a lot lower. I will say say a lot ,not all non-Japanese don't have bonus systems, especially factory workers and Eikaiwa teachers.

That being said, alot of non-Japanese do not have full insurance paid by their employers which would severly cut into that figure that was stated. If you are thinking about life after retirment then non-Japanese are way behind the Japanese. Everything I read so far that says non-Japanese have it easier is very biased.

[gaijinalways]

Everything I read so far that says non-Japanese have it easier is very biased.

Biased in what way? I've posted a lot of things I have noted and remembered opinions from other people that have given to me. Of course you have to remember, the ones (these are the foreigners I am speaking about) that really think Japan sucks usually leave, so I don't worry about them.:p

And what happened to marsman, the one who 'demoted' this thread because it had no cultural content?

[GaijinPunch]

Here's my simplified, and correct assessment:
Westerner > Japanese > Non-western gaijin

[Glenski]

One thing bugged me from an earlier post about average incomes. I think someone said that the average income for a non-Japanese was about ￥420,000 per month. Monthly income comparisons are useless, you have to go on a yearly salary comparrisons, due to the fact that most Japanese companies have the bonus system in place and this can vary greatly, so much so that half a persons salary can be in the form of a bonus which would make their monthly income a lot lower. I will say say a lot ,not all non-Japanese don't have bonus systems, especially factory workers and Eikaiwa teachers.
All true, and since I was the one who brought it up, I just wanted to say so. I was indeed thinking of the annual salary, and if I remember correctly the news report I saw/read talked only of annual, too. I just divided by 12 to keep the conversation going here.

[Taiko666]

Surely for a 'easy' life these things are desirable:

1) Good health
2) Source of income (or other means to sustain yourself)
3) Somewhere to live
4) Stability
5) Friends / social life etc

For (1) I don't think it really matters whether you're J or NJ so long as you have insurance(stories of Peruvian women being turned away from maternity hospitals notwithstanding)

For (2), of course it's much harder for foreigners to find work than Japanese, unless it's a job where foreigness is explicitly required. Still waiting for day when I see a foreign-looking train driver / bus driver / taxi driver / policeman. Or even truck driver! (I've ever actually seen Mike Cash in his truck :-)

Ditto for (3). I'm sure we all know the issues one is likely to face finding accommodation as a foreigner in Japan.

(4) Life for a foreigner in Japan is anything but stable. Lose your job = lose your visa = complete life upheaval. Even PRs have be careful. Leave Japan for a holiday and fail to return by the time you re-entry permit expires? You ain't a PR no more...

(5) This I think is an area where it's perfectly possible for a foreigner with a good attitude to enjoy an easier time than Japanese. Your foreigness is a means to meet and make friends with people. Certainly, many of those people don't become 'real' friends since all they're interested in is your foreigness... but it opens doors, and once the door's open the rest is up to you.

[FrustratedDave]

Biased in what way? I've posted a lot of things I have noted and remembered opinions from other people that have given to me. Of course you have to remember, the ones (these are the foreigners I am speaking about) that really think Japan sucks usually leave, so I don't worry about them.:p

And what happened to marsman, the one who 'demoted' this thread because it had no cultural content?
Biased in the way that a lot of people have not yet had the time to settle down and realise that this is where you are going to live for the rest of your life. Like I said earlier, for the short term there may be some advantages to being foreign, but long term is a complete different story.

BTW, sorry for the slow reply, pretty busy at work.

[Glenski]

Life for a foreigner in Japan is anything but stable. Lose your job = lose your visaUntrue. Absolutely untrue. Your visa is yours until it expires, even if you lose your job.

Even PRs have be careful. Leave Japan for a holiday and fail to return by the time you re-entry permit expires? You ain't a PR no more...How careful does one have to be to be gone for a few years?

[Taiko666]

Untrue. Absolutely untrue. Your visa is yours until it expires, even if you lose your job.

While what you say may be technically correct, it still doesn't mean that life is stable in Japan. If the job goes, the visa will eventually go unless you're lucky / qualified enough to find a job same field.

I've considered what would happen if I lost my job in Japan.

1) I'd be obligated to inform the immigration folks at MOJ, but I'm not sure what their next move would be. Perhaps you could enlighten me Glenski?

2) I'd be unable to engage in any employment except IT.

3) I'd face the well-understood problem of being a foreigner looking for a job in Japan. And since my official Japanese language level is only JLPT3, there'd be absolutely no chance of finding a job in a Japanese company.

So in effect, the sequence of events would be: lose job, lose visa, leave Japan. In contrast, if I were a Japanese citizen the sequence would be: lose job, take social security, find a job in any field at my leisure (finances permitting.)


How careful does one have to be to be gone for a few years?

I think you're being a little obtuse here. We all know that a re-entry permit is valid for a number of years. But it's perfectly possible for an absent-minded person who's got used to the 'security' of PR to leave the country a few days/weeks before the their RP expires, and then find themselves bumped down to 'vistor' status when they next present themselves at Immigration. Bottom line, your PR visa is not 'permanent' and can be revoked.

Glenski, all I'm saying is that ALL foreigners in Japan have to rely on their visa status, whether that's working, PR, spouse or whatever. That visa status is either transient or vulnerable. And that negatively impacts stability.

[AroundTheWorld]

When all is take into account, I believe that it is easier for the foreigner to live in Japan, both the long-term and the short-term, as foreigners ARE NOT expected to know the language, culture, and customs 100% even if they are fluent in the language and have lived there for more than 10 years. It is just not expected of them; never has, and probably never will be. Even though they desire it and demand the respect accorded any Japanese for following their customs and learning the language, it will never happen and this tends to frustrate the hell out of many a long-term foreigner where they come to despise the country they have called home and haved decided to reside in for who knows how long.

As was mentioned above, even long-term foreigners can always play the "gaijin card" and they will be forgiven because, after all, they are foreign. Once a foreigner understands that they will never be accepted and learns to live with it, only then may they enjoy the fruits of living in Japan as a foreigner, especially if one is fluent.

A Japanese on the other hand has no card to play and must do what is expected of any Japanese whether they like it or not. Is it not "Jersey Boy" who, being Japanese, but lived in America so long that he feels American, is now having trouble coping with the customs and traditions of Japan now that he has moved back? So much so that he is even wondering whether he needs a pre-nup before getting married.


I respectively disagree as I know more than a few Japanese who wish they never had to do the "gaman", "honne" and "tatamae" thing, but do it only because it is expected of them even though it frustrates the hell out of them especially if they have lived in the states for a considerable amount of time. Just because they HAVE to follow them, it does NOT make life any more easier for them. In fact, the opposite seems to be more the truth even for those few (that I know) that have never been to a foreign country, but are a little more cultured on life outside of Japan than their fellow countrymen/women.

Personally, as I've said before, even though I may be fluent in the language and culture and have lived there for many years, I can play the game and have, but I like being a foreigner where it is not expected of me to understand all there is to know of Japanese culture and I can act on it if I choose to.

It's comforting, in a strange way, knowing I have that option since I already know, and understand, that I will not be accepted, nor do I want/desire to and, I also know it will not be expected of me outside of my closest friends and relatives. With them I do play the game because it is expected of me.

Either way, IMO, it is much easier to live in Japan as a foreigner if one can overcome the fact that they will never be considered a Japanese person even if they have become a citizen. Round eyes will never equate to Japanese for the Japanese even if they were born there and lived no where else!

Thank you so very much for writing this so I didn't have to. The first thing I thought of is how so many Japanese dislike the strict social constraints they are under, and how some youth wish for a lifestyle more like what is in the West.

[gaijinalways]

I think you're being a little obtuse here. We all know that a re-entry permit is valid for a number of years. But it's perfectly possible for an absent-minded person who's got used to the 'security' of PR to leave the country a few days/weeks before the their RP expires, and then find themselves bumped down to 'vistor' status when they next present themselves at Immigration. Bottom line, your PR visa is not 'permanent' and can be revoked.

I for one think Glenski is not being obtuse. Even in that scenrio, I'm sure the immigration office would reinstate your permanent residency in your passport, though you would have to do some extra paperwork.

Here's some of the 'evidence' mars man has been asking for.

http://www.aare.edu.au/01pap/mur01081.htm

http://forum.japantoday.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10583&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

http://www.smh.com.au/news/depression/submerged-stress-in-Japan/2006/06/14/1149964602274.html

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:eI_wXe8slusJ:ni.hudson.com/documents/JP_HudsonReport2007_Q2_eng_MEDIA.pdf+stress+of+lif e+in+japan&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4297803/Interpretations-of-elder-suicide-stress.html

http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/csacpub/Mono19/Html/wrapped_gifts-2_-4.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761566679_6/japan.html


http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1201/taylor.htm

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event_summary&event_id=368261

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:WQU0b4KwExgJ:media.mcgill.ca/files/Japan%2520Crime%2520Bibliography.pdf+japanese+soci al+problems&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=43

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/magazine/15japanese.html

http://www.professorshouse.com/family/relationships/arranged-marriages-japan.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omiai

http://web-japan.org/trends98/honbun/ntj980729.html

http://www.jref.com/culture/westerners_japanese_marriage.shtml

http://www.hanamiweb.com/omiai.html

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LsJf7s4d26phszp2Ddh7v T1Jnk3NfpLwYkBDdqkYFXTSzT1vc8hT!341882573?docId=50 00282486

http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/working.html

[Glenski]

While what you say may be technically correct, it still doesn't mean that life is stable in Japan.My answer was not about stability. It was about immigration rules.

If the job goes, the visa will eventually go unless you're lucky / qualified enough to find a job same field.What is "lucky"? You quit and you'd better have a job lined up first. You get fired, and you still have the rest of your visa length to find work.

I've considered what would happen if I lost my job in Japan.
1) I'd be obligated to inform the immigration folks at MOJ, but I'm not sure what their next move would be. Perhaps you could enlighten me Glenski?You are not obligated to tell them about losing your job.

2) I'd be unable to engage in any employment except IT. Depends on the type of work visa you have.

3) I'd face the well-understood problem of being a foreigner looking for a job in Japan. And since my official Japanese language level is only JLPT3, there'd be absolutely no chance of finding a job in a Japanese company.Not true. Difficult, yes, but not zero chance.

So in effect, the sequence of events would be: lose job, lose visa, leave Japan. In contrast, if I were a Japanese citizen the sequence would be: lose job, take social security, find a job in any field at my leisure (finances permitting.) You can collect unemployment for 3 months in Japan. Why are you being so doom and gloom here?

Re: PR status and losing it by staying away for >3 years
I think you're being a little obtuse here. We all know that a re-entry permit is valid for a number of years. But it's perfectly possible for an absent-minded person who's got used to the 'security' of PR to leave the country a few days/weeks before the their RP expires, and then find themselves bumped down to 'vistor' status when they next present themselves at Immigration.Sure, but whose fault is that? If PR is so important to someone, keep on top of things. Besides, you can also file for an extension. Did you know that?

Bottom line, your PR visa is not 'permanent' and can be revoked.Only if you are that absent minded. I think having a 3-year leeway on a reentry permit is pretty obliging and neighborly of Japan.

Glenski, all I'm saying is that ALL foreigners in Japan have to rely on their visa status, whether that's working, PR, spouse or whatever. That visa status is either transient or vulnerable. And that negatively impacts stability.I'm not going to disagree that visa status is a permanent thing here. Sure, we are all vulnerable, but why do you choose to look at it so harshly? Even if you get a divorce, your spouse visa remains active until it expires. Pretty flexible if you ask me. Lose your job, and your work visa is still valid. Be a "permanent" resident, yet have the flexibility to be gone from for 3 years. What more do you want from a visa system? (Not to pick nits, but PR is not a visa status.)

Whatever market you are in, you run a risk of losing your job. That involves people who depend on visas or not.

[gaijinalways]

Well put Glenski. Some people who live here haven't cottoned on to that yet. You can be as native as you want to be, but if you have a PHD and no job, then you gotta look for some way to bring money in to the house.

[kireikoori]

If it's easier for foreigners to live in Japan, why would they complain so much?
It's always racism this and racism that.

Somehow it gives me the feeling that it's ten time easier to live in Japan if you're Japanese.

[KirinMan]

It's always racism this and racism that.

I have often thought that "it takes one to know one"............ in regards to some people who complain about racism here in Japan.

[tada]

From what I've heard, I think it would be way harder for a foreigner to live in Japan. I mean, to get a job there, I'm going to have to compete with people who are fluent in Japanese and go to universities whose prestige is actually comparable (apparently, all foreign universities are not on the banzuke of universities, so any Japanese university gets priority). Meanwhile, I'm only around 2-kyuu level and don't go to any university in Japan. Even though I am in the University of Washington CS department funded by Bill Gates himself, any native gets priority over me...

But then again, I would probably appreciate living in Japan much more than your average native.

[gaijinalways]

But then again, I would probably appreciate living in Japan much more than your average native.

You might, but you'll never get the locals there to admit it!

I mean, to get a job there, I'm going to have to compete with people who are fluent in Japanese and go to universities whose prestige is actually comparable (apparently, all foreign universities are not on the banzuke of universities, so any Japanese university gets priority).

But many industries that foreigners get into here don't require Japanese fluency (IT and teaching to name the popular two). The language skills don't hurt, but they are not necessarily the main skill needed. Many people who came here to work in the financial industry don't have Japanese skills as they supervise the locals who do.

[tada]

But many industries that foreigners get into here don't require Japanese fluency (IT and teaching to name the popular two). The language skills don't hurt, but they are not necessarily the main skill needed. Many people who came here to work in the financial industry don't have Japanese skills as they supervise the locals who do.

The big thing I'm worried about (and have had several people tell me will be the bane of me finding a job) is that I have no work experience in my field. You'd think it would be an implication that a college student won't have much work experience in their field (if any at all), but it doesn't seem to be. To get the work experience, I need to find a job in my field. And why would they hire some weirdo from overseas? Seems really catch-22 to me.

(Sorry to those who are sick of me worrying about my potential for being hired, but thinking about this sometimes causes me to have panic attacks...)

[KirinMan]

(Sorry to those who are sick of me worrying about my potential for being hired, but thinking about this sometimes causes me to have panic attacks...)
If you are having panic attacks about this, what are you going to do when people in your job start talking behind your back in Japanese and you think they are talking about you. The best thing you can do for yourself is prepare yourself as best as you can, and that includes learning enough of the language to help you ease some of your concerns.

If you have panic attacks about this, you might want to take some time and seriously think about if this is the right time in your life to be making a move or trying to move here to Japan.

Depending on the individual "You aint seen nothin yet"

I hope you have medication for your "panic", and I dont mean that jokingly either.

You have culture shock waiting in the wings.

[tada]

If you are having panic attacks about this, what are you going to do when people in your job start talking behind your back in Japanese and you think they are talking about you. The best thing you can do for yourself is prepare yourself as best as you can, and that includes learning enough of the language to help you ease some of your concerns.
If you have panic attacks about this, you might want to take some time and seriously think about if this is the right time in your life to be making a move or trying to move here to Japan.
Depending on the individual "You aint seen nothin yet"
I hope you have medication for your "panic", and I dont mean that jokingly either.
You have culture shock waiting in the wings.

It's not people talking behind my back that's causing me to worry. It's not that I might have culture shock (I've actually been to Japan on vacation). It's not even doing the job itself. But it's how to go about finding the job that's causing my panic attacks. Whether I have the qualifications needed to get a job in Japan.

[KirinMan]

It's not people talking behind my back that's causing me to worry. It's not that I might have culture shock (I've actually been to Japan on vacation). It's not even doing the job itself. But it's how to go about finding the job that's causing my panic attacks. Whether I have the qualifications needed to get a job in Japan.

Well, have you researched the numerous, ok few:p sites on the internet related to foreigners looking for jobs in Japan?

If you have then you should know whether or not you have the qualifications, that should be the easy part I would think.

However the biggest plus is language abilities I would think. Having the capability to not only speak the language but understand what people are saying to you would, I think, only enhance any other qualifications you already have.

Plus try to remember that many if not most Japanese companies place quite a bit of importance on "certificates" or "proof" of attaining a level of accomplishment or achievement in education. Meaning just "saying" you know something and "proving it" with some type of paper certificate carries more weight, particularly in the interview process when they look at your resume and decide whether or not to invite you to meet with them face to face.

In some cases it doesnt matter what you know, but where you learned it that maters too.

[tada]

I'm really mixed on whether or not I will have the qualifications. I will have a Bachelor's in Computer Science next year, and am taking JLPT 2-kyuu in December, so I should be fine on those areas. and have certificates to prove them. However, as far as work experience, I have only had a part-time office assistant job; no official work in my field yet. So it's not really black or white whether I have the qualifications.

I suppose I could just get the work experience in the US, but I'd be going through motions and waiting for the economy to implode.

This ties back into the topic: Natives aren't expected to have work experience in their jobs, just degrees. Foreigners are expected to have degrees and years of work experience (regardless of age; I'm 21 years old and in college. I think it would be common sense I haven't had much work experience) for the same jobs from what I have read and researched on those sites. I think it's easy to see who has it easier in this respect.

[KirinMan]

This ties back into the topic: Natives aren't expected to have work experience in their jobs, just degrees. Foreigners are expected to have degrees and years of work experience (regardless of age; I'm 21 years old and in college. I think it would be common sense I haven't had much work experience) for the same jobs from what I have read and researched on those sites. I think it's easy to see who has it easier in this respect.
Japanese are hired differently than most foreigners. As a foreign hire, for the most part, you would be hired for your expertise.

The expectation also might be that you would not be a permanent employee either, and compensation would be different as well.

[tada]

Damn, all I could show for experience is a "portfolio" of programs I've written. Either way, that shows it's easier for natives to live there. Not only do you have to be better, you have to be better by a hell of a margin.

I guess if I can't get a job, I can always jump from Kiyomizu-dera.

[KirinMan]

Damn, all I could show for experience is a "portfolio" of programs I've written. Either way, that shows it's easier for natives to live there. Not only do you have to be better, you have to be better by a hell of a margin.

I guess if I can't get a job, I can always jump from Kiyomizu-dera.
Hold one here....I am not saying that you can not get a job but you might want to consider other options as well.

For example one big thing would be to get your foot in the door here in Japan, and that may mean doing something other than what you are learning about in University.

Consider the JET option and or working for an eikaiwa, it pays the bills while you are here and also gets you here in country where the job search would probably be easier than from overseas.

If you are set on wanting to work here keep all of your options open to you would seem to be prudent advice at this time.

[tada]

I'm going to Tokyo in September. Probably will start my job hunting then...

After hearing of a friend's experiences, I'm sort of dubious about teaching English, and she told me I should only do it if I can't find anything else. I really don't want to do JET (they send you to the middle of freaking nowhere), but I'd be willing to work for an eikaiwa or something outside my field if it came down to that. Still, I'd get no experience in my field, and it would slowly be atrophying...

[KirinMan]

I'm going to Tokyo in September. Probably will start my job hunting then...

After hearing of a friend's experiences, I'm sort of dubious about teaching English, and she told me I should only do it if I can't find anything else. I really don't want to do JET (they send you to the middle of freaking nowhere), but I'd be willing to work for an eikaiwa or something outside my field if it came down to that. Still, I'd get no experience in my field, and it would slowly be atrophying...
You are making assumptions based on only a few people's experiences. There are literally thousands of people who have been on JET and sure there is a chance you could get sent to bum....you know what...middle of nowhere.

Remember this though, that nowhere though is "here" in Japan not where you are at now.

If you are willing to work at an eikaiwa then I have a bit of pity for you. JETS pay is by far better and the working conditions are better than just about any eikaiwa as well. Plus you wouldnt have to work nights, weekends and holidays either on JET. But hey, it's your choice!:-)

[Glenski]

I have no work experience in my field. You'd think it would be an implication that a college student won't have much work experience in their field (if any at all), but it doesn't seem to be. To get the work experience, I need to find a job in my field. And why would they hire some weirdo from overseas? Seems really catch-22 to me.
You're going to run into this even back home. However, in another country, it is more strict usually. The simple fact is, in Japan you find an employer who feels your credentials are acceptable, and who sponsors a visa. Those credentials can be the right degree, work experience, plus language ability.

Re: I suppose I could just get the work experience in the US, but I'd be going through motions and waiting for the economy to implode.
You seem to put down getting any work in the USA to make your resume look better. Don't.

gaijinalways mentioned IT as a field where Japanese skills are not required. True in some cases (many India natives get hired here, but who really hires them?), but not in all. VERY entry level jobs are going to be competitive wherever you go in the world, so get what it takes. Be patient. You are going to need patience in Japan almost as much as language skills.

Japanese are hired differently than most foreigners. As a foreign hire, for the most part, you would be hired for your expertise.True.

The expectation also might be that you would not be a permanent employee either, and compensation would be different as well. By law you are supposed to get the same. This may look different on the surface (like how much you make per month and what your bonus is), but the total annual salary and all benefits are supposed to be the same by law.

I am not saying that you can not get a job but you might want to consider other options as well.

For example one big thing would be to get your foot in the door here in Japan, and that may mean doing something other than what you are learning about in University.

Consider the JET option and or working for an eikaiwa, it pays the bills while you are here and also gets you here in country where the job search would probably be easier than from overseas.

If you are set on wanting to work here keep all of your options open to you would seem to be prudent advice at this time. EXCELLENT advice!

I'm going to Tokyo in September. Probably will start my job hunting then...But you said you won't even have a degree until next year. Perhaps you can do some networking and sniffing around in Sept this year, but don't expect to get a job offer, or one that will hold water, until after you get the degree (for the work visa).

After hearing of a friend's experiences, I'm sort of dubious about teaching English, and she told me I should only do it if I can't find anything else. I really don't want to do JET (they send you to the middle of freaking nowhere)To paraphrase KirinMan, stop listening to ONE FRIEND. Even the JET programme's motto is Every Situation Is Different.

Not everyone has a horrible experience teaching English. In fact, with JET (despite some disadvantages), here are the positive points:
1. Paid airfare (few other teaching opportunities offer this. DARNED few!)

2. Sane hours. Monday to Friday, 9 to 4ish. With eikaiwa, you work noonish to 9pm and THEN go home (maybe an hour commute or more), and you can work any of the 7 days of the week.

3. You are the ALT, not the solo teacher. (Discipline and most lesson planning will be the JTE's job, not yours. Lots of JET ALTs complain about the down time on the job, so all they do is surf the net. That's stupid and a waste of time. DON'T do that. USE your time wisely. The sensible hours will give you a chance to study at night, whether for Japanese language, IT, or even PT work on the sly.)

4. You are in the middle of freaking nowhere. Yup. This is POSITIVE. Where else do you think you are going to be able to hone your Japanese skills better? Few country folks speak English, so you will be FORCED to learn more Japanese faster. Think out of the box. Besides, "nowhere" is often just an hour or two from SOMEwhere (bigger city).

[tada]

I think I'm going to go the eikaiwa route. I really am against working in a rural area, since I don't like them regardless of which country. In Japan, rural areas also come with more anti-gaijin sentiment than urban areas. Not good. Sure, there's the hidden benefits of learning the language faster, but that's not the only factor. Any Japanese immersion is good.

I'm also a workaholic myself, because working takes my mind off things like this. The hours probably won't be any shock to me; I'm a CS major (though all my summer classes are non-CS, so a lot more free time). That means coming to campus at all days of the week at all hours to work on stuff. I don't think you could name a day of the week and time of day I haven't been in the labs. Whether it's 11pm on a Friday night, or hours before the sun comes up (if it does... it tends to be invisible most of the year in Seattle), I've probably been in the labs multiple times at that time/day.

It also sounds a lot more safe than just taking a stab in the dark at getting a job in my field...

edit> Hmm, does this http://www.careerforum.net/ look good for a person in my position? I might try this first (the LA one, which will be after I get back to the States) and then fall back on eikaiwa if I can't find anything.

[ASHIKAGA]

In Japan, rural areas also come with more anti-gaijin sentiment than urban areas. Not good.

What makes you think that? I don't think that is true.....

I hope you will get to see the rural areas, too, when you come visit in September.:wave:

[tada]

What makes you think that? I don't think that is true.....
I hope you will get to see the rural areas, too, when you come visit in September.:wave:

人間の性格の癖にそれと思います。何国でも田舎の人が 都の人よりよそ者扱いしそうです。

訳：Because of human nature I think of that. In any country it seems like rural people differentiate between outsiders more than city people.

(Sorry, I had an uncanny urge to practice.)

[KirinMan]

人間の性格の癖にそれと思います。何国でも田舎の人が 都の人よりよそ者扱いしそうです。
訳：Because of human nature I think of that. In any country it seems like rural people differentiate between outsiders more than city people.
(Sorry, I had an uncanny urge to practice.)
Really? I dont know about that. In the cities chances are that you would be just one in a crowd of many depending on the location of course and in the countryside you could be seen and treated like a celebrity depending alot upon your attitude and willingness or not to learn and adapt.

Sure rural people probably differentiate between us and them, however if you were an ALT in a country school you would, depending again upon how YOU make it have a great time, make tons of friends, and learn to speak the language with more fluency than in a city.

The point is you seem, to me at least, to be tossing aside the idea of living in "inaka". There is good and bad anywhere, but I would bet a lot of money that in "inaka" there would be more people around to support and help you than in a city.

Again it all depends on you.

[tada]

If you read my whole post, I also just don't like rural areas. Especially in Japan, the energy and fun of the cities is what I really love.

Meeting people isn't high on my list of priorities either.

Man, being a foreigner that loves Japan is torture. Sometimes I just want to run my head into a wall in hopes that I will reroll a brain with more plausible ambitions.

[ASHIKAGA]

Good to know, tada...good to know... I still hope you will have a great time here.

Ooookay! Let us get back to the topic of "For whom is it easier to live in Japan; foreigners or Japanese?"!

[tada]

スレを脱線したことすみません。
(Sorry I steered the thread off topic)

I'd love to continue the discussion though. Perhaps in a new thread. Which forum, though?