Japanese Language Conspiracies!!!

[Emoni]

Yes, below are two Japanese language conspiracy theories. Neither of these are too serious, but thoughts have crossed my mind on how accurate they might be.



1#: Correct Japanese accent is rarely taught in order to keep foreigners from learning and having a chance to truly speak correctly and sound "Japanese."

First let me state that my Japanese is no where near fluent and this isn't a question based on arrogance in any form. However, there is one thing that I have noticed in books and classes I have taken both in Japan, China, and the United States; truly correct pronunciation is rarely taught for Japanese. I'm not talking about how to say ra ri ru re ro, I'm talking about correct inflection, how to speak naturally (natural vs grammatically correct) and the like. Probably the most frustrating is inflection. I constantly hear, even from Japanese, Japanese pronunciation is so easy because unlike Chinese it has no inflection and is just one tone. Bullshit! If you want to speak Japanese, you do need to learn how sentences flow, what inflections are important in words and this is almost never taught. I have two books out of over 50 Japanese language books that actually cover inflection. When I was in Japan and looked for books that explained pronunciation and how to speak correctly as well as inflection I could only find books which were at an extremely high level of Japanese I couldn't even read past the first sentence. I could not help but feel a sense of, at the very least, unintended separation put between teaching intelligible and correct Japanese pronunciation. In comparison pronunciation in Korean and Chinese is critical so more focus is naturally put on it when being taught.

I consistently hear how hard Japanese is, and how the language almost becomes and obnoxious form of the over used and abused nihonjinron theory (yes, I know I said theory twice... sue me). The truth is, Japanese isn't THAT hard and there are plenty of difficult language in the world. However, if you don't teach important aspects of the language seemingly on purpose then it almost automatically relegates the language to become difficult to master. It's hard to put something as complex as a computer together, but not impossible. However, if you decide to leave out the cpu and memory, things get a lot more difficult for no justifiable reason.


2#: Katakana is a justified form of a linguistic superiority complex an ultimately racism.

Yes, in addition to being used for emphasis or other katakana is pretty much the character set for foreign words in Japanese. Why? I've heard all sorts of reasons and proposed benefits from foreign words being confusing if they were written in hiragana. Yeah, it's much easier in katakana so your mind is instantly flags to search for what English word was FUBAR'd so you can suddenly battle out inside your brain the way it is pronounced in English and pronounced in Japanese. It's as if a doctor is telling you, "Ok now Jim, we are going to insert this needle into your arm and it will be piercing through your flesh and fibers. Try not to imagine that as we jam this into you ok?" Well, maybe not a one for one comparison, but you understand my feelings at least.

Why does katakana have to exist? Simply so we can tell "OMG foreign word!" Some words, (tobacco anyone) have been "accepted" as Japanese while most not. What does this sense of acceptance even mean? Is katakana the linguistic gaijin card of the Japanese language? Do you have it in Korean? Nope, Chinese? Nope. (although some pronunciation syllabic set would have been nice entirely but that is a separate issue)

I have come to wonder if katakana is simply accepted as necessary by those learning the Japanese language because they have simply bought into the brain washed idea that it is required or we wouldn't know how to separate the word from Japanese and pronounce it correctly. Think about that for a minute . Does that make any sense? Flip it around, do you have any problem reading Japanese words exaggerated in katakana for effect? Yeah... something doesn't quite fit with that reason you've been told all along. Katakana is ultimately an accepted form of racism inside the language.

One final note: Ever sit in an English class in Japan? The concept of katakana is probably at its most evil in this situation. Kids all sit in the room being taught English with katakana being used to teach pronunciation. Those kids who CAN pronounce it correctly are ridiculed by other students for pronouncing it differently and thus purposefully pronounce it incorrectly. It was one of the most pathetic and angering scenes in education I had ever seen and why I will never touch being a JET.

BONUS RANT! 3#: The entire idea that kanji is an aspects that foreigners can never truly expect to master.

First, kanji ISN'T a unique aspect of the Japanese language, it's Chinese! Yes, there are differences and ultimately about 3 main sets of used kanji used in the world, but the idea that somehow kanji is part of the entire idea of Japanese uniqueness baffles me. When foriegn words were banned and replaced during the nationalistic push during the Pacific War, they were replaced with... kanji! Yes, using the language set of the country whose people were seen and treated as less than human. Even today, there seems to be a sense of thought that somehow kanji is Japanese. Even more so, this unique aspect of the Japanese language somehow cannot ever be mastered by a "foreigner." This is even more ironic when sitting in a room with 10 Japanese students and 6 Chinese students. All the Chinese student's names are different but they all introduce themselves as "Chou-san" as each of their different names get turned into simplistic sounds so you have 6 people with the same name. Further more, Japan doesn't even use or know all of the kanji that were "borrowed."

So wait, your saying foreigners can't hope to truly master kanji when Japan pronounces 6 different names, 3 of which they don't know the kanji of themselves, all as "Chou." From there the entire idea of "mastering kanji" breaks down.


So... what are your thoughts? Do you have any conspiracy theories of your own on the Japanese language?


(Disclaimer: This set of rants is not necessarily reflective of my true opinions on the subject, but they are thoughts that have crossed my mind. I am posting these in hopes to get some comments on the topics as I feel that these are questions, however outrageous some might seem, need to be asked and thought about. I truly love learning about Japan and Asia as well, and I love the Japanese language. This rant in by no means expresses hate in anyway towards another culture, race, or creed.

Oh yeah, and excuse any grammar or spelling errors. I don't have time to check this as I have to get back to studying Japanese!)

[Glenski]

Correct pronunciation is rarely taught. Yup. Same in English. Conspiracy or just too difficult considering all the other components of the language(s)? Or find another teacher.

Yes, in addition to being used for emphasis or other katakana is pretty much the character set for foreign words in Japanese.Come to Japan. You'll see it spattered everywhere, not just for foreign words. That "emphasis" you wrote is what covers most of your television set. Annoys me, but it is not racist.

I have come to wonder if katakana is simply accepted as necessary by those learning the Japanese language because they have simply bought into the brain washed idea that it is required or we wouldn't know how to separate the word from Japanese and pronounce it correctly.Do you know any other way to spell a foreign word? Katakana at least helps, but it certainly doesn't show how to pronounce it correctly, just in Japanese phonetics.

Flip it around, do you have any problem reading Japanese words exaggerated in katakana for effect? Yeah... something doesn't quite fit with that reason you've been told all along. Katakana is ultimately an accepted form of racism inside the language.No, it's not racist. Using katakana to spell Japanese words shows you the correct Japanese pronunciation. Can't do that in other languages, as I've already described.

So wait, your saying foreigners can't hope to truly master kanji when Japan pronounces 6 different names, 3 of which they don't know the kanji of themselves, all as "Chou." From there the entire idea of "mastering kanji" breaks down.Looked at from the Japanese perspective, it's logical to assume that if Japanese people have problems reading/pronouncing kanji (and the most certainly do!), then why should it be easy for foreigners? It's harder for most of them, I would think. Looking at it from a purely linguistic acquisition side, of course the statement is false (that foreigners can't master kanji. But, at least if you pull out an electronic dictionary, a Japanese person has a better clue as to what to type in for possible pronunciations. Most foreigners have to rely on the stylus-drawn entry and hope his handwriting isn't too faulty.

[Emoni]

Thanks for the counter-reply.

I have been to Japan. I lived there for two years now during two study programs in Tokyo and Kanagawa. I've seen the Katakana spit all over the place, but I'm mostly speaking in the sense of it's focus towards foreign words in this thread. It helps keep the ravings more focused after all!

To clarify the above conspiracy/rant:

By correct pronunciation I'm not speaking of a "perfect level of language" rather than a natural flow that goes along with the emotions you intend to express behind the words you use as well as the generally accepted "right way" of saying the word. Yes, pronunciation isn't taught often, but there tends to be a low level of focus on it in Japanese in regards to "saying it right." Every book I have seen on the subject is at a graduate school level (or at least appears to be) and tends to be focused on the more linguistic aspects.

As for other ways to spell a foreign word... why not Hiragana? Yes, Hiragana. Other languages I know don't have a special "set" of characters for foreign language. It would be like English having all borrowed foreign words in CAPITALS every time, followed by the argument that if it wasn't in capitals people would get confused. An abstract example yes, but you get my point. I'm trying to get at the core of "why are things the way they are?" If you look at it from this angle a sense of racism does peer through the cracks.

As for learning English, the correct pronunciation needs to be taught in schools. Try going to a college class and then they teach Korean with Katakana. It took me 3 months in class before I realized that the reason I was always the slowest in class to pronounce the sentences was that I had the audacity to try to READ the Hangul and everyone else was just reading the Katakana pronunciations on the next page. I didn't learn a damn thing from that class anyway, and only after going to study abroad during the summer from Japan in Korea did I learn basic pronunciation. Katakana is not a learning tool it is a rusted barbed hook in your tongue hindering every second of effort towards learning a language.

You're argument for why Japanese perceive kanji as hard for foreigners is a bit tough to hit. However, the sense that kanji is difficult in a humble relation to the difficulty that Japanese endure learning kanji isn't entirely what I was referring to. The essence of what I was attempting to get at is the concept that certain aspects of Japan are not possible to grasp or master for "foreigners." Another example besides kanji would be the essence of silence used in movies and conversation in Japan. Yes, I'm pushing this a bit and it isn't a common occurrence, but I have witnessed this sort of mindset that contains a distinct level of superiority behind it. It would be saying to any Japanese person, that they cannot make a truly great hamburger because they are not American.

[undrentide]

The essence of what I was attempting to get at is the concept that certain aspects of Japan are not possible to grasp or master for "foreigners."

When you use the word "foreigners", do you refer only to the people from western countries where the language is written in Roman Alphabets?
In Japan the people from China are also "foreigners" and their language consists of kanji (Hanzi)...
If it is a conspiracy for all the foreigners, certainly it does not with with them.

[JimmySeal]

#1

There is no conspiracy to keep students of Japanese from learning correct inflection. The reason it isn't "taught" in most Japanese classes is that it would be tremendously time consuming and counter-productive to attempt to teach it.
Pronunciation and accent, of all things, are points that need to be learned, but not intellectualized. Teachers do teach inflection and pronunciation to their students simply by speaking to them.

While it might be helpful for class vocabulary lists to have marks on them indicating inflection, the lack of such marks is probably the result of 2 things:
1) Japanese themselves do not seem to think about inflection a whole lot, and unlike English-English dictionaries, a large portion of Japanese-Japanese dictionaries have no indication of where the accent is placed on words.
2) Japan has a very large degree of dialectical variation and that includes differences in inflection, so teaching students a particular inflection would only teach them the inflection for one part of Japan. In many cases, the inflection written on the paper would be vastly different from that which the teacher is actually using in the classroom, and would simply confuse students.


#2

We are generally told that hiragana is used to write any Japanese word as a writer so chooses, and in theory this is true, but in actual practice, hiragana's function in contemporary adult-level text is to represent particles, inflectional endings, helping verbs and only occasionally other Japanese words like verbs and nouns (and even then, it is mostly restricted to words that have rare or no kanji representations).

Anyone who has tried to read Japanese entirely in hiragana surely knows how frustrating it is and kanji does a great job to suggest word boundaries and ease the difficulty of figuring out where one word ends and the next begins.

Since the majority of foreign words cannot be written in kanji, they employ katakana to represent them, and again leave the hiragana for the "grammatical glue" like particles and inflections.

#3

While there no doubt are a few people that think that most westerners could never possibly learn kanji, these are usually the same people with the misguided notion that one cannot learn any language other than their native language after a certain age. With that mindset, it's easy to believe that, surely, no westerner could possibly learn kanji as an adult.

A probably larger group are the Japanese who reason that they spent 12 years of formal education grueling through the characters and still wound up with a less-than-perfect grasp of them, so how could any ordinary westerner have the time, dedication, and guidance to go through the process as an adult?
This manner of thinking is yet again misguided, but rather understandable.

[Glenski]

Yes, English pronunciation needs to be taught, but there are 2 answers to that.

1) It's not for Jimmy Seal's reasons. Same holds for Japanese.
2) Why are we comparing what SHOULD be done in English vs. what you WANT done in Japanese?

As for other ways to spell a foreign word... why not Hiragana? Aside from Jimmy's answer, mine is this. Because using katakana makes it stand out as a foreign word, so the reader doesn't have to ponder what the heck it is from his own vocabulary. Actually, it's rather nice that way. Racist? Hardly. I don't think you know what that word means. Oh, and English DOES have a way to represent foreign words. Two ways, actually. They either insert the foreign alphabet or unique markings (umlauts, for example), or they put the foreign word in italic font. Even so, I see no difference in calling katanana racist and calling italic font for foreign words racist.

You're argument for why Japanese perceive kanji as hard for foreigners is a bit tough to hit. It's not my argument. It's the Japanese explanation (for some Japanese anyway). There ARE those who think we foreigners will never learn kanji. Once you accept that silly notion, you're halfway home.

The essence of what I was attempting to get at is the concept that certain aspects of Japan are not possible to grasp or master for "foreigners."Yes, they say that, too, but that has nothing to do with kanji or katakana. Nor is the idea necessarily racist.

Another example besides kanji would be the essence of silence used in movies and conversation in Japan. Yes, I'm pushing this a bit and it isn't a common occurrence, but I have witnessed this sort of mindset that contains a distinct level of superiority behind it. It would be saying to any Japanese person, that they cannot make a truly great hamburger because they are not American.I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you are driving at here. Silence in movies is not a Japanese thing. Nor is it in conversation. Give this another shot.

[Emoni]

Very good replies here.

I think by typing more I might be just mixing too much into things to try to get at the core of the concept I'm speaking of.

I'll try a new approach; short simplicity.

I'm extremely tempted to speak about the English teaching mess and tell a few stories about kids who have successfully learned better English than their English teachers by the age of 8 in Japan but I think maybe I'll start another thread. I don't want to derail things further in regards to that. I will say, for the sake of pronunciation, I have seen it taught in class in Japan in my Chinese class. As pronunciation and inflection is critical, it was important for the class and was not time nearing as time consuming as you might expect.

Yes, to clarify I am talking about "westerner's" when I referred to foreigners above.

If you clearly label and separate your "native language" from "foreign borrowed language" then yes, I believe it can be argued that there is a sense of racist action taking place with that separation. Yes, Katakana words signal that the word is most likely foreign in nature, but it is by no means necessary to do so. Does it truly help in reading the word just to know it is "foreign?" Does it change the meaning? No. My point here is to think about the typical argument that Katakana makes things easier in reverse. I came to this after seeing the way Korean is written.

In reply to Glenski on the third issue of kanji, JimmySeal is mostly on a similar track to interpreting what I said about the subject so you can simply reference what he wrote. i will say that your point about silence in movies not being a Japanese thing (yet interpreted by many Japanese to be so) hits at the core of what I was stating in my probably loosely put together argument.

Bed time!

[caster51]

私の好きなすぽーつは、ばすけっとぼーるとばれーぼーるですが、あめりかんふっとぼーるは、苦手です。すみ すさんとじょんさんは、おーすとりあから来ました。
ぽてとふらいとはんばーぐをどこのまくどなるどで買いますか？


私の好きなスポーツは、バスケットボールとバレーボールですが、アメリカンフットボールは、苦手です。スミ スさんとジョンさんは、オーストリアから来ました。
ボテトフライとハンバーグをどこのマクドナルドで買いますか？

that is why the korean does not read books more than the japanese.
because to read a book is agony for korean

[Emoni]

それを読むと最初にちょっと変な感じだけど、私にとって大体同じすぴーど（ごめん～）読めた。ちょっと変な 感じのはまだ慣れていないものだ。でも、どして||を入れたの？実はそれは一番読みにくいとこ ろだと思う。

[caster51]

それを読むと最初にちょっと変な感じだけど、私にとって大体同じすぴーど（ごめん～）読めた。ちょっと変な 感じのはまだ慣れていないものだ。でも、どして||を入れたの？実はそれは一番読みにくいとこ ろだと思う。

moji-bake
your Japanese is good enough

[Glenski]

For the sake of people who cannot read Japanese, can we NOT use Japanese script here? There IS a Japanese forum for it.

[Kirakira1232]

Katakana, simply put was the Japanese solution to the rising number of gairaigo or foreign words that were penetrating the language. Not only from english mind you. Katakana was created originally for buddhist scripts to be written in, it was originally noted as "the man's handwriting" and consequently hiragana was perceived as "feminine". Both scripts were in fact derived from Chinese characters despite being purely phonetic.

Different countries, different approaches to the same problem. Japanese decided to use Katakana, China decided to try and use existing syllabary characters. If Japan was truly racist then NO borrowed words would exist in the language whatsoever. You would instead ramp up national "purity" of the language by purging of it of "foreign taints". Much like the vain attempt by the French to purge it's language of borrowed english words (like "le hot dog")

The Japanese borrowed Kanji from the Chinese and integrated into their own language system however haphazardly it was done. This was done thousands of years ago...and I dont think that they did it "just so that it would make it harder for foreigners" but rather China at that point in history was linked to prosperity and the Japanese (and the Koreans too) wanted to be linked to that. The only difference now is that Korea do not use Hanja (Chinese characters) as prominently anymore. Whereas the Japanese continue to do so. As said before, Kanji is perhaps the only way you can probably remain sane reading long reams of Japanese text.

Not that Japan is the only country that had certain people believe that their language was "too unique and hard for foreigners". China for many thousands of years regarded themselves as the "Central Kingdom" and believed the further you moved from the centre the more barbaric you became. Even my Chinese lecturer who was a Caucasian Australian and lived in China for some 30 years still finds some Chinese that cannot reconcile a caucasian speaking fluent mandarin.

In old countries/civilisations there is always going to be some sort of issue dealing with influences from the "outside" versus indigenous culture. Its a tricky balance.

[JimmySeal]

I came to this after seeing the way Korean is written.

This is not a valid comparison. Hangul is capable of representing 11,172 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul) different combinations (obviously some are not used, but a large portion of them are).
By contrast, hiragana can represent no more than 200 different morae.

So native and loanwords alike in Korean can be easily identified by the distinct shape of their hangul blocks, while rendering Japanese all in hiragana results in long strings of the same 50 kana over and over. It's practically illegible.

This is one of the main reasons Korean is doing quite well without kanji and Japanese remains bound to it.

[FrustratedDave]

それを読むと最初にちょっと変な感じだけど、私にとっ て大体同じすぴーど（ごめん〜）読めた。ちょっと変な感じのはまだ慣れ ていないものだ。でも、どして||を入れたの？実はそれ は一番読みにくいところだと思う。
It is not just a question of being able to read it smoothly, more so identifiying with the word and having understanding reached in the shortest possible time. Katakana acheives this.
Like with kanji, meaning comes with it.

[caster51]

This is one of the main reasons Korean is doing quite well without kanji and Japanese remains bound to it.

it is wrong.
korean sound are made from chinese.
so there are many homonym.

전사, 전사, 전사
戦史、戦士、戦死
war history, warrior and death in action are same.
homonym in korean
for example
＜独自 original＞と＜読者 readers＞
＜少数 a small number＞と＜素数 a prime number＞
＜課長 a section chief＞と＜誇張 exaggeration＞
＜地図 map＞と＜指導 caoch＞
＜首相 prime minister＞と＜受賞 be awarded＞
＜朝鮮 Chosun＞と＜造船 ship building＞
＜初代 first＞と＜招待 invite＞
＜大国 big nation＞と＜対局 play a match＞
＜株券 stock＞と＜主権 sovereignty＞
＜反戦 anti-war＞と＜反転 be reversed＞
＜同情 sympathy＞と＜童貞 male virgin＞
＜定額 a fixed charge＞と＜精液 sperm＞
＜注意 caution＞と＜主義 principle＞
＜顧問 adviser＞と＜拷問 torture＞
＜自身 one's self＞と＜自信 self confidence＞
＜歴史 history＞と＜駅舎 train staiton＞
＜連覇 win many chanpionships continuously＞と＜連敗 lose continuosly＞
＜市場 market place＞と＜市長 mayor＞
＜遺産 heritage＞と＜乳酸 lactic acid＞



There are merely a lot of unnesessary sounds of the pronunciation

[Mycernius]

I have read that katakana is also used for Japanese words when they want to emphasize the word, a bit like we use capitals when we need to make a headline or phrase eye catching. On pronunciation, how do you say your English words? I'm sure that I can find that your pronunciation of various English words are wrong to how I say them. That being said I am from the UK and regional accents do differ from area to area and country to country, so the stress of certain letters differs, or sounds even lost? For example the word buoy. In BrEng is is said as boy, yet in AmEng it is boo-ee. Though there is standard English that is taught in schools, how do tyou think someone from Japan feels when visiting the UK comes across a scots accent? Maybe he would say why don't the teachers back in Japan teach pronunciation of English words correctly? You think you might have problems with various Japanese accents, how do you think the rest of the non-English speaking world feel when faced with the multitude of English accents around the world?

[JimmySeal]

it is wrong.
korean sound are made from chinese.
so there are many homonym.

전사, 전사, 전사
戦史、戦士、戦死
war history, warrior and death in action are same.
homonym in korean
for example
＜独自 original＞と＜読者 readers＞
＜少数 a small number＞と＜素数 a prime number＞
＜課長 a section chief＞と＜誇張 exaggeration＞

...

It is indeed true that Korean has many homonyms, just as any language does, but I think the reality is that they are far fewer than the homonyms found in Japanese.

[caster51]

It is indeed true that Korean has many homonyms, just as any language does, but I think the reality is that they are far fewer than the homonyms found in Japanese

I dont think so.
there are some pronunciations that are applied one chinese character in japanese
however, a korean pronunciation is applied one chinese character.
＜戦記 record of a war＞の発音(pronunciation)senki
＜前期 early part ＞の発音zenki
＜伝記 biography＞の発音denki
however in korean , these are pronunced chongi

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/chanchan_yanagi/41642306.html

it is regrettable that the Korean has given up the Chinese character for
pride.

[Emoni]

It is not just a question of being able to read it smoothly, more so identifiying with the word and having understanding reached in the shortest possible time. Katakana acheives this.
Like with kanji, meaning comes with it.

How does Katakana achieve this any more than Hiragana? This is exactly the sort of logic I'm seeking to get an actual justification rather than just hearing it repeated.

Yes, you may be used to seeing the Katakana version rather than Hiragana, but that doesn't make it anymore easier to read than if it were Hiragana. Both are literally the same sounds, take up the same space, and are written out in a syllabic character set.

The main point of this post was not really to argue the conspiracy theories themselves, but hear a logical justification (and there may not be any for some) for the current arguments that exist today.

Caster51 is doing fine countering the Katakana/Korean argument being invalid. So I won't cover that.

[Glenski]

I have read that katakana is also used for Japanese words when they want to emphasize the word, a bit like we use capitals when we need to make a headline or phrase eye catching.Everything I learned in my Japanese classes about the reason for using katakana went out the window the day I landed here. Trust me. It's used everywhere! That bit about "emphasis" is the most annoying to me. Katakana is plastered all over the TV screen even when the words are Japanese and NOT emphasized in any fashion. Best answer I have received to date on this is from my wife. She said it's used whenever people use a dialect that is hard to understand, or when (here's that word again) the word has some strong emphasis in the sentence. Yeah, right.

On pronunciation, how do you say your English words?I speak them pretty much the same as I would to a native English speaker. If there happens to be a bastardized Japanese version loan word, I might use that next, but I'd prefer to just define the word. I also speak slowly and clearly for the sake of my lower level students.

Though there is standard English that is taught in schools, how do you think someone from Japan feels when visiting the UK comes across a scots accent?They say, "Wow! A different (and perhaps difficult to understand) accent!"

Maybe he would say why don't the teachers back in Japan teach pronunciation of English words correctly?And, just what would "correctly" mean? British vs. N.American? Texan vs. Maine? Cockney vs. the Queen's? Japanese teachers of English teach pronunciation very little, and they only use what they have been exposed to. I've met many who have N.American accents and British accents and Aussie accents.

You think you might have problems with various Japanese accents, how do you think the rest of the non-English speaking world feel when faced with the multitude of English accents around the world?They learn to accept whatever they hear. Some would rather just learn an American accent (as if there is only ONE!); some prefer the British. It can be more than a matter of what pronunciation they like, of course. Practicality may get in the way. Example: a student wants to live in the UK, so they should study more of the British English grammar and end up with a British accent when they return.

[Emoni]

Yes, Katakana shows up all over the place in Japan. I'm specifically talking about Katakana in respect to it being used selectively for foreign words in my argument. This, and this only is the aspect I am speaking of in terms of possible racism.

As for the English teaching thing... I know I said I wasn't going to say anything more for risk of derailing the thread, but I do want to clarify: the problem isn't with teaching a certain accent over another, the problem is teaching English pronunciation with "Katakana" accent, words and phrases that are highly unnatural and not used in any region, and just generally lousy teaching methods. I've sat in many English classes from elementary school to high school level, as well as taken part in English training events. As some JET posters here may be able to qualify, English teaching in Japan is pathetic without even considering the "Nova-like" institutions. Don't even get me started on other aspects of the Japanese education system! (not that the American education system is a model!)

Yeah... I think I'm going to start an extra thread.

[JimmySeal]

Caster51 is doing fine countering the Katakana/Korean argument being invalid. So I won't cover that.

Actually, he's not countering it at all. He's saying that Korean writing is painfully difficult for anyone to read, as Japanese would be if it were entirely written in hiragana.

Besides, this isn't a question of what is conceivably possible. Anyone with a good grasp of Japanese can empirically verify that it's much harder to read if all of the katakana is replaced with hiragana.

If you clearly label and separate your "native language" from "foreign borrowed language" then yes, I believe it can be argued that there is a sense of racist action taking place with that separation.You have yet to refute my assertion that most native Japanese words (other than particles, inflections, and helping verbs) are not written in hiragana. In fact, most plant and animal names are written in katakana. We then have the following general roles for the three writing systems in adult-level writing (and yes, this is not all-encompassing, but it's good enough):

kanji: nouns, adjectives, verbs and adverbs that can be written with relatively common kanji, or (at the author's discretion) less common kanji words with furigana
hiragana: particles, inflections, helping verbs, and (on occasion) other native and Sino-Japanese words
katakana: everything else (this includes native Japanese words)

Since most foreign words do not fit into the first two categories, they are naturally placed in the third. How then, is this racist?


You have also failed to substantiate how using katakana to mark foreign words (even if it were only marking foreign words, which it isn't) indicates linguistic superiority. How does indicating something is "different" imply that it is inferior?

[FrustratedDave]

How does Katakana achieve this any more than Hiragana? This is exactly the sort of logic I'm seeking to get an actual justification rather than just hearing it repeated.
Yes, you may be used to seeing the Katakana version rather than Hiragana, but that doesn't make it anymore easier to read than if it were Hiragana. Both are literally the same sounds, take up the same space, and are written out in a syllabic character set.
The main point of this post was not really to argue the conspiracy theories themselves, but hear a logical justification (and there may not be any for some) for the current arguments that exist today.
Caster51 is doing fine countering the Katakana/Korean argument being invalid. So I won't cover that.
How does this achieve it more than Hiragana?
Quite easily. I would like to see you argument on taking Kanji out of the language?
example, which is easier to UNDERSTAND?

This, "そのけいたいからのうじょうもしくはぼうすいじょうにだいべつされ、せいいんによりせんてんせい、どうみゃ くこうかせい、さいきんせい、ばいどくせい、がいしょうせいなどにぶんるいされる。"

Or this "その形態から囊状もしくは紡錘状に大別され、成因により先天性、動脈硬化性、細菌性、梅毒性、外傷性などに 分類される"

This is obviously a medical explanation. With the hiragana example, there is a great possibility that some of these words could be misinterpreted, but with the one with the kanji this is not possible.

So like with kanji ,katakana words have meaning in the way they are written to decrease any room for misinterpretation.
How would you translate the following sentence, both have completely different meanings.
Eg, "彼の部屋にれいがいてた"
"彼の部屋にれいがいてた"

[Emoni]

FrustratedDave: you didn't really explain the katakana aspect so I'm not sure how to respond. I am not saying kanji should be removed, but it "could" it would just make certain things more difficult and there may be a need for spacing put into Japanese. I'm not comparing this to the removal of Katakana as it is simply not comparable.

JimmySeal: Your arguments are the hardest to counter of anyone here by far. Continuing on the side of the "Katakana is racist" argument, let me see if I can come up with anything further.

I believe there can be an argument made for that fact that with consideration to the fact that foreign words are selectively given Katakana for the distinct advantage of separating a foreign word from the Japanese language, this can be inherently seen as a form of implied language superiority on the Japanese side. We could say that by the very fact that the foreign language is given the selection of a separate character set that this brings with it the idea of a need for both languages caring different quality and values.

So why then is tobacco in Hiragana? There is a distinct difference in the way that Katakana is used for the native Japanese language. One issue I haven't brought up for comparison (because it is one hell'uva stretch) is the fact that Chinese pronunciations of Kanji are given a Hiragana set, but not Katakana. With Katakana comes the inherent idea of separation on some level. Katakana styled foreign borrowed words are a strong part of the Japanese language, yet have they really been entirely accepted when they are still in Hiragana? Again, during World War II there was an effort to erase these foreign words and give them Kanji and Japanese terms instead. That didn't last, but the separation of them being in Katakana does remain.

For the love of language why can't 美さん　びさん sit together with ビさん in the same part of the bus! ビ　and　び really are the same character. (Drama switch off)

[FrustratedDave]

FrustratedDave: you didn't really explain the katakana aspect so I'm not sure how to respond. I am not saying kanji should be removed, but it "could" it would just make certain things more difficult and there may be a need for spacing put into Japanese. I'm not comparing this to the removal of Katakana as it is simply not comparable.


I answered your question in my last post, but you obviously did not understand. Read the sentence below and answer the question.
So like with kanji ,katakana words have meaning in the way they are written to decrease any room for misinterpretation.
How would you translate the following sentence, both have completely different meanings.
Eg, "彼の部屋にれいがいた"
"彼の部屋にれいがいた"


One more time. Katakana is like kanji, with out it it makes reading and interpreting things quite difficult.

I used the example for kanji b/c that is the easiest way to explain, just like kanji if katakata were eliminated from the writting system misinterpretations would occur. I hope that is clear enough for you? If not explain to me what you don't understand about the fact that katakana is in effect a tool just like kanji to reduce misinterpretations and make comprehension easier.

Edit: Writting in kansai ben, changed it to hyoujyun go. In kansai ben "いてた"　is used over "いた". Cheers

[Emoni]

I'm sorry but that comparison doesn't work. Katakana and Kanji don't compare and aren't used the same way at all.

[JimmySeal]

I'm sorry but that comparison doesn't work. Katakana and Kanji don't compare and aren't used the same way at all.

Sure the comparison works. Both serve the duty of reducing ambiguity in writing, the same way variations in English spelling keep us from using sentences like, "There counting there money there."

I believe there can be an argument made for that fact that with consideration to the fact that foreign words are selectively given Katakana for the distinct advantage of separating a foreign word from the Japanese language, this can be inherently seen as a form of implied language superiority on the Japanese side. We could say that by the very fact that the foreign language is given the selection of a separate character set that this brings with it the idea of a need for both languages caring different quality and values.

You've yet to supply any basis for the claim that it implies superiority. There are numerous explanations for the current use of katakana that don't involve "linguistic superiority."

For one, katakana can be seen as designating words that Japanese cannot accurately depict in their original orthography, thereby retaining some hint of where the words came from.

[undrentide]

Katakana is not only for foreign words, it is used for academic name of plants/insects/animals, etc., mimetic words, onomatopoeia, just for example.

I believe that the biggest function of katakana is what Dave stated, if everything is written kanji and hiragana only, it would make it very difficult to read properly and quickly ("read" here means not just sound but comprehension as well) - both kanji and katakana makes it easier to grasp the meaning of the sentences at a glance.

After WW2 writing system changed a lot (simplified kanji, hiragana/katakana "spelling" closer to the actual sounds, etc.).
In the past sometimes katakana was used in place of hiragana.

Here's a example, you'll find the text of Criminal Law written during Meiji era.
http://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%88%91%E6%B3%95_%28%E6%98%8E%E6%B2%BB13%E5%B9%B 4%E5%A4%AA%E6%94%BF%E5%AE%98%E5%B8%83%E5%91%8A%E7% AC%AC36%E5%8F%B7%29#.E6.9C.AC.E6.96.87

[FrustratedDave]

I'm sorry but that comparison doesn't work. Katakana and Kanji don't compare and aren't used the same way at all.
Although the two above posts have given a good enough reason to why they compare, I still wish to reply.
Why does that comparrison not work? Please explain your logic.
And I am still waiting to see if you can awnswer my question? If you answer what translation for each sentence is I will stand corrected.
(I know you can read Japanese so by not answering I will know that you argument is purely based on YOUR personal feelings towards Katakana) Here is the example again.

What am I intending on saying in example #1 and #2
#1: "彼の部屋にれいがいた"
#2: "彼の部屋にれいがいた"

[Emoni]

You've yet to supply any basis for the claim that it implies superiority. There are numerous explanations for the current use of katakana that don't involve "linguistic superiority."

For one, katakana can be seen as designating words that Japanese cannot accurately depict in their original orthography, thereby retaining some hint of where the words came from.

Well, I did name this thread "Conspiracy Theories" for a reason. I can only stretch and argument so far when it is based a bit on the paranoia that such a "theory" stems from.

Let's see...

I do have to say the comparison doesn't work. Kanji has a great deal more information attached as well as multiple readings, more distinct size and shape, and Katakana does not contain anywhere near the same amount of information that Kanji does. You're going to need to define a lot better how Katakana shows the origin of a word, and if so why that would even be important as to the meaning. Let alone how that connects to directly to Kanji which is very different.

As for the racial superiority, that is mostly based on the fact that Katakana created a sense of segregation when none is needed and other languages do not separate in such a distinct way. Thus, the only reason left for such a separation is racial superiority in keeping these languages from being accepted into the core of the language. I haven't thought up anything beyond that yet.

Do let me clarify, that these ideas are mostly just thoughts and concepts that have crossed my mind at one time or another. Please refer to the original post for that. I simply believed they were worth considering and talking about as I have heard them stated in other forms elsewhere.　I do feel there has been some good points made that I haven't seen discussed on here previously from many sides

FrustratedDave... ちょっと落ち着いてね？そのような態度…名前本当に当ていみたい。じゃあ、もしその二つの文書は大事だった ら、ぽいんと「又ごめんね！」皆に教えてください。

[ASHIKAGA]

Well, Emoni san, when you someday learn to write and understand Japanese, you will see what frustrated dave and others are trying to say.

Until that day, though, I feel that this whole back and forth of "opinions" are pointless because one side is giving their views based on their experiences having to read and understand Japanese on a daily basis while the other side is talking about this "fleeting suspicion" one have had.

IF you had a better understanding of our language, I would love to hear your opinion and share mine but from what I have read from you so far, I am afraid I don't think that is the case.

To read someone who doesn't even understand the language saying, even just for the sake of an argument, that what I and many other Japanese people use everyday (Katakana, that is), is based on racism, is not only ridiculous but also insulting.



　

[Kirakira1232]

As for the racial superiority, that is mostly based on the fact that Katakana created a sense of segregation when none is needed and other languages do not separate in such a distinct way. Thus, the only reason left for such a separation is racial superiority in keeping these languages from being accepted into the core of the language. I haven't thought up anything beyond that yet.


What the? If the Japanese were so hell bent on "racial superiority" as you put it, then absolutely NO GAIRAIGO would exist in the language whatsoever. Racial superiority would seek to eradicate borrowed words. Not place them into the langauge.

I dont understand why you are so paranoid.

[Emoni]

Ashikaga: I NEVER said I was I good. Heck, I'm not saying this is an opinion I actually hold, only a thought that has crossed my mind that I classify as a sort of conspiracy theory. Hence, why I clearly labeled it as such. I would like to hear your opinion spelled out but the argument, "You don't know, so you don't know." never held much water with me.

Experience can hold a great deal of value, if that was the sole means of learning then no one would ever even attempt to communicate. I'm sorry if you find this somewhat wild idea that Katakana has aspects of possible racism attributed to it; however, keep in mind that just like many other countries in the world, Japan has a strong share in racism and prejudice and I have seen numerous times where it is not even recognized. It is only natural that in some small way that it MAY exist in other forms in the language. The usage of the words for non-ethnic Japanese for example, far beyond just the cliche "gaijin."

There is great value it talking about such subjects and I wouldn't even consider such a topic as taboo and disregard the benefit of such a conversation just because "it might offend a few people to even mention the possibility of racism" even if it may seem far fetched. That, in my opinion which of course would simply bounce back and forth as well, is a dangerous and extremely close-minded way of thinking about things. Especially in a forum that exists for education, communication, and gaining understanding. I will make it clear that there was no intent on insulting "your" language, and I'm still very interested in hearing what you have to say. Especially on the "We" "You" aspects that may exist or does not exist in the Japanese language.

KiraKira: A sense of linguistic superiority absolutely exists in certain areas of nationalist belief. France, Korea may be the most obvious examples. Japan during wartime and the censorship of foreign words which I previously gave as example is another. While the "linguistic conspiracy theories" I listed so far may seem far fetched, aspects such as this do exist paranoia or not. It is only natural that if racism exists that it manifest itself through language as a tool as well.



You know let me throw in this story for you to interpret how you will. Yes this is a true story:

A teacher of mine in Japan who immigrated and teaches at a major university had a child with his wife. He had lived in Japan for almost two decades and was absolutely fluent and probably knew Japan better than the college students entering the college in many areas. Later he had a child and gave the child a Japanese name. In the news paper the recent births were printed.

All of the native Japanese names were in kanji. The name of his child was put in Katakana. After calling to fight the printing of the name in Katakana, an issue they are still running into with the "That is just the way it is" mindset even though it is a JAPANESE NAME IN KANJI, they were finally able to have it corrected and an apology in the newspaper. He is also very aware that his child will NOT be treated simply as another Japanese study even if he does grow up in Japan, speak, and know generally the same material as everyone else.

The teacher has studied a great deal about race issues in Japan, and I learned a great deal from him and gained a lot of insight on numerous issues. Take the story as you like.

With that I think I'm done with this thread for now. As Ashikaga said, it is going a bit round in circles. I better just go study "his" language right now and learn to read and write.

[FrustratedDave]

With that I think I'm done with this thread for now. As Ashikaga said, it is going a bit round in circles. I better just go study "his" language right now and learn to read and write.
I wonder why this is going around in circles? You don't listen to a thing that people are saying and then in the next breath you say "show me some proof!"

You have gone off on your own little tangent and are basically having a one sided conversation with yourself.


FrustratedDave... ちょっと落ち着いてね？そのような態度…名前本当に当 ていみたい。じゃあ、もしその二つの文書は大事だった ら、ぽいんと「又ごめんね！」皆に教えてください。
Of corse I am getting frustrated, answer the question I have been asking of you b/c you have been deliberately palming off the question by changing the subject, b/c if you can't you will see just how similar katakana is to kanji. Actually I doubt you would be able to see ,but I am allowed to hope.

So I ask you one more time , please answer the question or explain why you can't?

[FrustratedDave]

One more thing, I have often seen this , 珈琲 "coffee", which is sometimes used instead of the usuall コーヒー.

[Goldiegirl]

I thought I read a post some where in Jref, that a certain person's child's name was written in katakana at his/her school because one of his/her parents was not Japanese, although the child's name was Japanese. I think in that instance, yes, katakana was used to discriminate.

[FrustratedDave]

I thought I read a post some where in Jref, that a certain person's child's name was written in katakana at his/her school because one of his/her parents was not Japanese, although the child's name was Japanese. I think in that instance, yes, katakana was used to discriminate.
At my kids pre-school, everyones name was written in katakana. And I wonder if someone would kick up a fuss if the only Japanese half childs name was written in Kanji and everyone elses in katakana?

[pipokun]

My mother's name is Katakana+ko
The names of long-lived sisters, Kin-san & Gin-san, were in Hiragana.

Japan during wartime and the censorship of foreign words which I previously gave as example is another.

Weren't German/Italian words foreign then?
It is true that English words were targeted for the elimination, the baseball related-words were a good example, but it is a bit wrong to say only English was foreign to Japanese people then.

Official documents before the WWII was in the Kanbun style using katakana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Constitution

But once you are defeated in a war, everything is supposed to be a target for the post-war blame game from the victor.
It was a sort of joke some allied officials seriously thought high-leveled math education at school was the cause of the war or kanji education was an obstacle for democratization.
Another joke-like story was some Japanese were disappointed to see some Allied soldiers were illiterate without writing down their name, in English of course, at hotels.

[Pachipro]

I've been reading this thread since it started and I feel I just have to put in my thoughts on this.

As a person who considers himself a bonafide conspiratorialist, I find nothing conspiratorial about the use of katagana in the Japanese language.

If it was really as racist and conspiratorial as you say to use katagana in describing foreign words I guess they would be using katagana to describe China-中国, Korea-韓国 and America-米国 to name a few, while France, China, and Korea uses their own language to describe foreign words.

Does not China forbid any writing and pronunciation other than kanji for foreign words? Does not France do the same with their language out of pride? I am not sure of Korea, but if what I have read here is true than they may do just the same. Are these countries racist also? Based on what you have put forth Emoni I would think you do as, if this is indeed the case, then these countries are far more racist than Japan in their language.

I find it laughable when foreigners look around every corner for a racist angle to Japan, including the language. Don't get me wrong here, there is discrimination and a little racism in Japan, but not in the language IMO.

As far as I know, and I concur with what has been written above, katagana is only used to denote foreign words, plants, onomatopoeia, etc. Besides, that was what I was taught and I had enough kanji to learn without having to learn the kanji for every single gairaigo the Japanese incorporated into their language.

If you think it's racist that a foreigners name was printed in katagana in the newspaper because he/she was not a Japanese citizen even though they had a Japanese name, then what about the case of Yoko Ono who married John Lennon? After she gave up her Japanese citizenship her name was always written in katagana in the newspapers, both her first and last names when, while she was a Japanese citizen, it was always written in kanji. Does she think it racist? If so she has not said anything about it and remains quiet about it.

Lord knows I'd hate to have to memorize the kanji for every state in the US never mind every country in the world and reading foreign proper names in kanji would be a real pain in the butt as there are probable 10 or 15 kanji for every name. For example, I could select from about 18 kanji for just the syllables of my first name and about 8 for my last name. How in hell is any Japanese supposed to know what it means at first reading like in a bank or any other place my name needs to read and called? It would be absurd to me. To get it right and to ensure there were no screw-ups I selected katagana for my hanko as it would be understood by anyone even though I could've just as easily selected kanji to be cool as a few aquaintances did.

Sorry Emoni, in my book utilizing katagana for foreign words, names, countries, plants, etc, just makes Japanese that much less of a burden to learn and is in no way racist or a conspiracy to me.

By the way, all foreign Japanese words in this post were written in italics as that is the proper way to denote foreign words in the English language. Is that racist? If we had symbols instead of romaji I'm sure they would have been written in different symbols also to differentiate between English and foreign words.

I think it is a stretch saying there is a conspiracy or that it's racist in using katagana for foreign words and such.

[caster51]

At my kids pre-school, everyones name was written in katakana

he was brainwashed by korean Oonishi:wave:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norimitsu_Onishi

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A07EEDE1431F934A25750C0A9629C8B 63

[GodEmperorLeto]

I'm going to take a more moderate approach to some of these topics.

1) Is there a conspiracy? No. However, are language and writing a tool that can be used to enforce disparities or social incongruities? Absolutely, and you don't have to be a Jacques Derrida or Michel Foucault to figure it out. The rendering of Yoko Ono's name into katakana might not bother her, or she may not comment on it, however, that does not change the fact that social forces obviously motivated the shift in how her name was rendered in print. What conclusions should we draw from this? Personally, I believe that, once she surrendered her Japanese citizenship, she became a foreigner, an "other." By rendering names into katakana, one identifies the name-bearer as "other" on an integral, almost visceral level. Is this a conspiracy? No, it is actually a manifestation of specific nationalistic structures present in Japanese society.

2) They teach English inflection, stress patterns, and speaking tempo at my institution, and to be honest, it inevitably turns into a train-wreck. Nobody learns the natural rhythms of speaking a language in a classroom. It is learned by hearing it and mimicking it--i.e. through practice. It is a monumental waste of time, in my opinion, to try to actually teach inflection/intonation, except in very specific circumstances. This is something that has to be practically learned in the field, not in the classroom. Hence, teaching this in Japan would be abjectly pointless.

3) Teaching English pronunciation through katakana is useful for beginners, but the value of it stops there. I've gotten a number of students through my job who learned English through katakana, and while some of them comprehend the language and can converse fluently, it is a gigantic flaw in their speech that is impossible to overlook. It is like the proverbial elephant in the room about which nobody talks. Teaching English through katakana may be easier than teaching the complex and myriad rules of English phonics, but that system of phonics is (except for foreign import words) pretty stable with few exceptions. (Middle and archaic Modern English writers notoriously spelled words differently throughout a text--sometimes even in the same sentence--but they always utilized stable phonetic rules which made pronunciation of the word easy). Which brings me to...

4) Homonyms exist in all languages. Because in English we can write the same word with multiple spellings, you can codify homonyms by writing them differently. Japanese does this through the use of kanji. All languages find ways to cope with these problems in writing. Sometimes, you simply have to use the context to understand the exact meaning if the homonyms are spelled the same.

5) Kanji is not unique in this regard (#4). Linear B used a syllabary of about 250 signs and about 1000 ideographs representing ideas, often used for homonyms in Mycenaean Greek. As I said, different languages/writing systems compensate for homonyms differently, if they compensate at all.

6) Foreigners can and have learned kanji better than some Japanese. I have a friend who is getting his PhD in Japanese language and linguistics, and knows more about it than native speakers, who actually go to him with questions about their own language. However, this is unsurprising. I'd expect a Japanese PhD in English Linguistics to know more about word etymology, for example, than I, who have never studied English deeply enough to get a PhD. It is a situation of casual working knowledge compared with deep, intensive inquiry.

Note: I do not describe #1 from a judgemental standpoint, but from a position of historiographical objectivity. You read enough Foucault, and systems of inequalities start jumping out at you all over the place--perhaps because you've learned to percieve them, perhaps because Foucault subtly brainwashed you with his agenda. Regardless, the use of katakana has definitely been overplayed. I've seen it used in a myriad of ways myself, and I've not yet been to Japan. But its singular nature as a vehicle for rendering non-Japanese/non-Chinese names should definitely raise red flags to those who are paying attention. Does this mean I feel the Japanese are discriminating against foreigners? No. But does this signify social anxieties or stigmas present in the Japanese psyche? Absolutely.

[Glenski]

I believe there can be an argument made for that fact that with consideration to the fact that foreign words are selectively given Katakana for the distinct advantage of separating a foreign word from the Japanese language, this can be inherently seen as a form of implied language superiority on the Japanese side.I disagree. What is it that makes a katakana word racially inferior to Japanese words? Racially.

1. Japanese are not a race.
2. Linguistically superior might be a better choice of words here, but even so, it fails. Type the words cafe or fiancee in Word (with American English selected), and you get this: café fiancée Please show me where the little mark over the e is an English thing. This is French or some other European invention. So, does that example show some sort of superiority of English over other languages just because it is different? No. Similar reasoning.

Japanese Katakana
Origin

The katakana syllabary was derived from abbreviated Chinese characters used by Buddhist monks to indicate the correct pronunciations of Chinese texts in the 9th century. At first there were many different symbols to represent one syllable of spoken Japanese, but over the years the system was streamlined. By the 14th century, there was a more or less one-to-one correspondence between spoken and written syllables.

The word katakana "part (of kanji) syllabic script". The "part" refers to the fact that katakana characters represent parts of kanji.
Characteristics and usage of katakana

The katakana syllabary consists of 48 syllables and was originally considered "men's writing". Since the 20th century, katakana have been used mainly to write non-Chinese loan words, onomatopoeic words, foreign names, in telegrams and for emphasis (the equivalent of bold, italic or upper case text in English). Before the 20th century all foreign loanwords were written with kanji.

Katakana are also used to write Ainu, a language spoken on the northern Japanese island of Hokkaido. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese_katakana.htm
Look at the underlined bold part. If katakana was designed to be a "racially superior" way of separating foreign words, then why did it take centuries to take effect?


Katakana (literally "side script"), is the more angular of the phonetic syllabaries and was the first of the Kana syllabaries. It was invented by Kibi no Makibi (AD 693-755) by the simplification of a single element or radical from each of the phonetic Kanji. Each Katakana symbol was derived from a Chinese character in the same way as each Hiragana symbol, except that the Hiragana were simplified from entire characters. Katakana were initially used only as a pronunciation aids in Buddhist scriptures, but were mixed with Chinese characters as they are now from the ninth century on. http://www.joyo96.org/Katakana.html
From the above history, it's pretty clear that katakana is not a form of superiority, unless you think those Buddhist monks felt that way.

Also, even though furigana can be in hiragana or katakana characters for the pronunciation of names (like you would see on an application form), don't you think it's a bit strange to have a "racially superior" Japanese name pronounced with katakana characters this way? Yes, sometimes hiragana characters are used, but what about the many times that the form asks for katakana furigana? Your "conspiracy" theory has more holes than a Japanese fisherman's net.

[caster51]

The katakana syllabary was derived from abbreviated Chinese characters used by Buddhist monks to indicate the correct pronunciations of Chinese texts in the 9th century.
I doubt it though it is established theory
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%BB%E5%83%8F:Katakana_origine.png#file
because most of them are not same pronunciations of Chinese.
that is why it is said...
there is no confirmation
for example, 阿　、亜　ア
why did they choose this 阿　ア？

if these were made by kanji , how about バ　ピ　プ　ガ ギ　ダ,,,,,?

[tokapi]

Both hiragana & katakana derived from Chinese writing.

亞細亞 is a modern Kanji-transliteration of Asia,the Chinese character 亞 didn't exist back then.

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?cdqchi=%E4%BA%9E%E7%B4%B0%E4%BA%9E

* ア = “阿”的草書体的省略形，偏旁“阝”

Japanese is a " bundled language " of indigenous & foreign origins,provenly cumbersome for non-Japanese to tackle.

Any suggestions of Japanese deliberately make it hard for foreigners to study is baseless.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Without responding point by point, I would just like to point out a few things.

Some (non-Chinese) words that have a foreign origin have become so integrated in the Japanese language that they are commonly written in hiragana rather than katakana. Here I am thinking in particular of the word "tobacco".

Some words have become verbs in their own right, and are written half in katakana and half in hiragana. Here I am thinking specifically of メモる and サボる. How do these words fit into your theory, especially when I am sure that most people have no idea where the word サボる originally comes from?

Names are a tricky thing, but it should be remembered that even if a person's name sounds like a Japanese or Chinese name, unless that name is officially written in Chinese characters in the country of said person, his or her name does not have kanji associated with it.

You may or may not be aware that I am changing my surname to that of my wife. However, technically speaking, my name, although it sounds exactly the same as my wife's is not the same by virtue of the fact that the country of which I am a citizen of does not officially recognize names written in kanji.

[nhk9]

Yes, below are two Japanese language conspiracy theories. Neither of these are too serious, but thoughts have crossed my mind on how accurate they might be.



1#: Correct Japanese accent is rarely taught in order to keep foreigners from learning and having a chance to truly speak correctly and sound "Japanese."

First let me state that my Japanese is no where near fluent and this isn't a question based on arrogance in any form. However, there is one thing that I have noticed in books and classes I have taken both in Japan, China, and the United States; truly correct pronunciation is rarely taught for Japanese. I'm not talking about how to say ra ri ru re ro, I'm talking about correct inflection, how to speak naturally (natural vs grammatically correct) and the like. Probably the most frustrating is inflection. I constantly hear, even from Japanese, Japanese pronunciation is so easy because unlike Chinese it has no inflection and is just one tone. Bullshit! If you want to speak Japanese, you do need to learn how sentences flow, what inflections are important in words and this is almost never taught. I have two books out of over 50 Japanese language books that actually cover inflection. When I was in Japan and looked for books that explained pronunciation and how to speak correctly as well as inflection I could only find books which were at an extremely high level of Japanese I couldn't even read past the first sentence. I could not help but feel a sense of, at the very least, unintended separation put between teaching intelligible and correct Japanese pronunciation. In comparison pronunciation in Korean and Chinese is critical so more focus is naturally put on it when being taught.

I consistently hear how hard Japanese is, and how the language almost becomes and obnoxious form of the over used and abused nihonjinron theory (yes, I know I said theory twice... sue me). The truth is, Japanese isn't THAT hard and there are plenty of difficult language in the world. However, if you don't teach important aspects of the language seemingly on purpose then it almost automatically relegates the language to become difficult to master. It's hard to put something as complex as a computer together, but not impossible. However, if you decide to leave out the cpu and memory, things get a lot more difficult for no justifiable reason.


2#: Katakana is a justified form of a linguistic superiority complex an ultimately racism.

Yes, in addition to being used for emphasis or other katakana is pretty much the character set for foreign words in Japanese. Why? I've heard all sorts of reasons and proposed benefits from foreign words being confusing if they were written in hiragana. Yeah, it's much easier in katakana so your mind is instantly flags to search for what English word was FUBAR'd so you can suddenly battle out inside your brain the way it is pronounced in English and pronounced in Japanese. It's as if a doctor is telling you, "Ok now Jim, we are going to insert this needle into your arm and it will be piercing through your flesh and fibers. Try not to imagine that as we jam this into you ok?" Well, maybe not a one for one comparison, but you understand my feelings at least.

Why does katakana have to exist? Simply so we can tell "OMG foreign word!" Some words, (tobacco anyone) have been "accepted" as Japanese while most not. What does this sense of acceptance even mean? Is katakana the linguistic gaijin card of the Japanese language? Do you have it in Korean? Nope, Chinese? Nope. (although some pronunciation syllabic set would have been nice entirely but that is a separate issue)

I have come to wonder if katakana is simply accepted as necessary by those learning the Japanese language because they have simply bought into the brain washed idea that it is required or we wouldn't know how to separate the word from Japanese and pronounce it correctly. Think about that for a minute . Does that make any sense? Flip it around, do you have any problem reading Japanese words exaggerated in katakana for effect? Yeah... something doesn't quite fit with that reason you've been told all along. Katakana is ultimately an accepted form of racism inside the language.

One final note: Ever sit in an English class in Japan? The concept of katakana is probably at its most evil in this situation. Kids all sit in the room being taught English with katakana being used to teach pronunciation. Those kids who CAN pronounce it correctly are ridiculed by other students for pronouncing it differently and thus purposefully pronounce it incorrectly. It was one of the most pathetic and angering scenes in education I had ever seen and why I will never touch being a JET.

BONUS RANT! 3#: The entire idea that kanji is an aspects that foreigners can never truly expect to master.

First, kanji ISN'T a unique aspect of the Japanese language, it's Chinese! Yes, there are differences and ultimately about 3 main sets of used kanji used in the world, but the idea that somehow kanji is part of the entire idea of Japanese uniqueness baffles me. When foriegn words were banned and replaced during the nationalistic push during the Pacific War, they were replaced with... kanji! Yes, using the language set of the country whose people were seen and treated as less than human. Even today, there seems to be a sense of thought that somehow kanji is Japanese. Even more so, this unique aspect of the Japanese language somehow cannot ever be mastered by a "foreigner." This is even more ironic when sitting in a room with 10 Japanese students and 6 Chinese students. All the Chinese student's names are different but they all introduce themselves as "Chou-san" as each of their different names get turned into simplistic sounds so you have 6 people with the same name. Further more, Japan doesn't even use or know all of the kanji that were "borrowed."

So wait, your saying foreigners can't hope to truly master kanji when Japan pronounces 6 different names, 3 of which they don't know the kanji of themselves, all as "Chou." From there the entire idea of "mastering kanji" breaks down.


So... what are your thoughts? Do you have any conspiracy theories of your own on the Japanese language?


(Disclaimer: This set of rants is not necessarily reflective of my true opinions on the subject, but they are thoughts that have crossed my mind. I am posting these in hopes to get some comments on the topics as I feel that these are questions, however outrageous some might seem, need to be asked and thought about. I truly love learning about Japan and Asia as well, and I love the Japanese language. This rant in by no means expresses hate in anyway towards another culture, race, or creed.

Oh yeah, and excuse any grammar or spelling errors. I don't have time to check this as I have to get back to studying Japanese!)

People in Japan are not expected to speak like NHK TV announcers, who are usually trained to pronounce words the ahem proper way. There are many ways of pronouncing the same word, so what is true in a region maybe false in another region. The overall trick for a foreigner is to balance the extremes. Speak in a monotone if you have to. There are other major rules of thumbs that you can follow, but I won't go into the details here.


"somehow kanji is part of the entire idea of Japanese uniqueness baffles me." Here, the word "ethnocentrism" strikes me


You are trying to fuse two totally different arguments into one, as far as your katakana argument is concerned. If they had used hiragana extensively, they would've still pronounced "arerugi" instead of "allergy". I've studied both Korean and Japanese for years and I know from my personal experience the fact that katakana does make reading simpler. Having katakana (or the like) would not make one's pronunciation better or worse.

[Kang Seung Jae]

it is wrong.
korean sound are made from chinese.

What? Can you explain that?

[tokapi]

I think caster51 meant " Chinese pronunciation " of 50%-60% Sino vocabulary in the language.

[Chidoriashi]

Emoni> Personally I think it is just what you get used to. So it is easy for me to be on katakana's side and say it is good and useful, but if I had got used to reading everything in just hiragana and kanji, i suppose it would not make a difference to me. Japanese is very much a language of visual recognition, and its about what you are used to I think. A perfect example. I had a Japanese co-worker write out something for me in Japanese that I would need to read later since I could not be in the office again before i needed it. And while I am happy that she did that for me, she put the thing in about 90% hiragana, which was really frustrating to read. As i read it I felt like i was back in first year Japanese. My point is though I dont know that katakana really does make a more significant impact than hiragana, i think it is about what we have become accustomed to. So is katakana (if everything was started over) really that necessary.... probably not. I will say your idea about katakana being racist though.... is a bit of a stretch and have to disagree.

I dont remember what your second rant was about. But about foreigners not being able to learn kanji.. yeah there is somewhat of a consensus among Japanese that foreigners (westerners) can't master kanji. What my co-worker did was a perfect example. But i cannot blame them.. it did take them 12 years to not so greatly master kanji.. (which is laughable.. but its not their fault though its the education system) So for them to believe that I in probably 4 years have almost done what took them 12.. well.. i can understand their disbelief. But dont you think the rate they learn kanji is too slow? Well maybe not, maybe it just needs be learned as their vocab grows into an adults vocab. But think about Chinese people.. it is my understanding that they learn 10,000 kanji in their 12 year education.. compared to the Japanese just learning 2000?... Well anyway I dont know but I do agree with you that many Japanese probably think that Westerners cannot master kanji to a proficient level... but it is not a misconception that I cannot understand.

[anomouse]

"But think about Chinese people.. it is my understanding that they learn 10,000 kanji in their 12 year education.. "

Not even true.
If you know 4000, that means you are very well-educated as a Chinese person.

[Emoni]

Keep in mind, by no means are these serious arguments. Again, I labeled them conspiracy theories for a very strong reason as that is all they are. Chidorashi makes a very good point on the fact of being used to something can make all the difference.

Anomouse... where are you getting the data about 4000 kanji being very well educated? As I have been studying Chinese and never gotten a clear answer, I'm curious where you found it.

[tokapi]

Anomouse .... where are you getting the data about 4000 kanji being very well educated ?

As I have been studying Chinese and never gotten a clear answer, I'm curious where you found it.






For highly literate Chinese,they need to know close to ten thousand Kanji characters.:-)

[Chidoriashi]

I am just regurgitating what my Chinese friends have told me. But in any case it is still at least twice as many as Japanese need to learn.

[anomouse]

I am talking about the "highly educated" ones, if you are an average Chinese, no need to learn that much. And remember, 10 percent of their population are still illiterate. The Chinese government is trying hard to eradicate illiteracy.

Japan's literacy rate 99
China 90

[anomouse]

Oh, you are wrong again, it doesn't take 12 years to master 2000 kanji in Japan, Joyo-Kanji is taught within 9 years.

But it doesn't mean the rate is slow. Certain abstract words require mental maturity to master. Some words may be easy for foreign adults, but not so for Japanese children. The same can be said for other languages.

[tokapi]

Ok,I have a link to Chinese source indicates average high achool educated Chinese have knowledge of 3000 plus 漢字 ( Kanji ),generally should read and understand 98% written content of book or any publication.

Elementary through secondary education levels,students learn 3000 to 4500 Kanji.

China's 2 major standard reference dictionaries 《漢語大字典》 recorded 54,000 Kanji & 《中華字海》 has 85,000 Kanji.


* 一般人至中學畢業時雖僅認識3000多個漢字，但已夠看懂一般書刊98%內容。

中小學生所識的漢字約應有3000至4500個。

國內較通行的大型字典《漢語大字典》收錄5.4萬字，《中華字海》更達8.5萬個

Source: http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5/news.xinhuanet.com/internet/2007-10/22/content_6921948.htm

[Chidoriashi]

umm no anomouse my friend you are wrong. I just confirmed it with two of my Japanese co-workers and our section chief who read through the government issued course guidelines which stated Japanese students are still learning new and mastering aspects of jyouyou kanji all the way till they graduate from high school. They may in fact learn more than this in that time.. but it is not in the guidelines and the 1945 jyouyou kanji are a minimum requirement. Where are you getting your ideas exactly?

[tokapi]

My limited time online contacts with Japanese,I observed college educated ones are more Kanji-literate than those with just formal K-12 education.

[FrustratedDave]

My limited time online contacts with Japanese,I observed college educated ones are more Kanji-literate than those with just formal K-12 education.
Excuse my ignorance, but how did you come up with that? Unless you are as literate in Kanji as "those" college students, I would think that you would find it very hard to tell. On top of that, when writting on social pages people tend slack off.

[tokapi]

Excuse my ignorance, but how did you come up with that ?

Unless you are as literate in Kanji as "those" college students,I would think that you would find it very hard to tell.

On top of that, when writting on social pages people tend slack off.






I do know at least twice as many Kanji as them so I could evaluate their Kanji-literacy level,they're often the ones effectively use 四字熟語 ( Chinese 4-character idioms ) and difficult Kanji in writings.

That's a good point,there are times they tend to write in ( 平仮名 ) hiragana more as it ultimately represents their indigenous tongue.

[orochi]

>I do know at least twice as many Kanji as them

4000? 5000? That's a lot. How well do you know them?

>they tend to write in ( 平仮名 ) hiragana more as it ultimately represents their indigenous
>tongue.

That's hardly the only reason.

[tokapi]

4000 ? 5000 ? That's a lot.





Not for anyone whose first language is 漢字 :-)

[orochi]

Well, 漢字 isn't a langauge.
And Japanese and Chinese characters are used differently and have different meanings.

So I am still not getting your point.

[tokapi]

It's true that a percentage of Kanji in Japanese language have different meanings from Chinese,but majority retained original definitions.

1 example," daijoubu 大丈夫 " is ok or no problem in Japanese whereas these Kanji literally mean " great husband " in Chinese.

[tada]

#1: In the Japanese classes I've taken, it's been taught.

#2: I've seen katakana used for Japanese-origin words too. Mainly for ones that have really complicated kanji, but they are there. Also, for some reason, various plants/animals have their names written in katakana.

#3: ...