Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?

[Emoni]

I'm posing this question to you all here as I've found the quality of the posters has really gone up the last few years here and I've found some awfully good comments and topics lately on the board.

For those who have studied in Japan we've seen at the very least major issues with the college system. Students sleeping in class, not really studying anywhere near the level of a typical American college student, and generally not quite matching the scale of an American University. I'm talking in generalizations here, as I also know Japanese students in college who study way more than some Americans as well. (Plus, it isn't considering the entrance exams which are a whole issue in and of itself, and other situations for grad school prep)

Many of us I assume have seen the specials about Japan trying to teach "creativity" in schools and using more western based teaching methods. Universities such as Waseda have opened up certain departments which are radically different than previous college departments in that they are more interdisciplinary as well as use new teaching methods.

Is it really "creativity" that is a major problem with Japanese education, or even education in Asia in general? I've come to wonder if it isn't creativity, but actually critical thinking skills.

I've seen many classes taught in Japan (including in China and South Korea which tend to be similar in many ways), I've read the books, I've taken the college classes (the regular Japanese ones, not just international student sectioned off ones), and the method and focus of classes is pretty much: here is the material memorize and know this. Once again, this is speaking in generalizations, and of course America shares this to some degree as well. However, I do want to point out that there seems to be a much stronger focus on critical thinking skills in United States colleges than Japanese ones.

With the linear teaching methods, one track history, rigid system, and overall opposition to uniqueness and "contrary thought," this almost creates a environment that punishes those who consider thinking and evaluating information rather than simply absorbing information.

What are your thoughts on this? Yes, this has some strong generalizations here and I'm posting late in the morning, but I'm curious as to how you all might view this aspect of Japanese education.

(Glenski posted this link below. I wanted to include it at the top as it covers exactly the sort of questions that this thread relates to: http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquir.../davidson.html) [in the event of failure, try this (http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquiry/spr95/davidson.html) ]

[caster51]

"creativity" ?

I think Japanese kids have creativity more than western world in certain fields :p

I think Japanese kids realized what they need ....
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E9%87%91%E6%8C%81%E3%81%A1%E7%88%B6%E3%81%95%E3%8 2%93%E8%B2%A7%E4%B9%8F%E7%88%B6%E3%81%95%E3%82%93-%E3%83%AD%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC%E3%83%88-%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A8%E3%82%B5%E3%82%AD/dp/4480863303

it is mysterious why the result doesn't go out oppositely in western education system

[JimmySeal]

Japanese children are very creative, but they are placed in an educational system largely designed to stifle individuality and individual thought.

[caster51]

Japanese children are very creative, but they are placed in an educational system largely designed to stifle individuality and individual thought

I dont know what individual thought means?
who does not have it:?

[Glenski]

Creativity is stifled in Japan. Yes, kids have ingenious ideas about building robots (as the specials on TV will show you) and about some other things, but when it comes to overall original thinking and creativity, Japan is very poor at that. Nobel prize winners FROM JAPAN admit that, and they often urge Japanese students to go abroad to learn creativity.

This should really be a very short thread.

[caster51]

Japan is very poor at that. Nobel prize winners FROM JAPAN admit that, and they often urge Japanese students to go abroad to learn creativity.

???
dont say thet like child. I think it is really poor thought.

how much difference in that?
The difference in sience field is a little even in art ,and by politics

if I did the critical thinking to western world, I would do more than you guys like korean issue

it is easy to criticize others.
however The foreigner like you is not good at the self-criticism.

[pipokun]

...
Nobel prize winners FROM JAPAN admit that
...

It is true that the US, UK, Germany and France are great countries in terms of the Nobel prize, but I cannot say the rest of countries lack creativity.

The attachment shows how the Japanese loves something practical/unpractical.
World Skills Competition
Patent
Paper, not toilet ones, but scientific ones
Nobel Prize
Math-related prizes
Ig Nobel Prize!

Not that good, not that bad.

[Emoni]

The foreigner like you is not good at the self-criticism.

This isn't a thread meant to criticize and insult anyone, any culture, or any nation, and I've made it clear that these are generalizations. Keep in mind though the "creativity" issue and teaching it comes out of Japan NOT the US criticizing.

Mostly I'm asking if this focus on "creativity" is misguided and that critical thinking skills are what needs to be considered. Looking at the way education is taught (and in some aspects this shares with American education in pre-college), things are ultimately very linear and one track. History is taught as fact, memorization is key, but analytical skills, questioning, and combination of data with a new focus based on "facts" seems to be rather lacking.

[Glenski]

caster,
I am only telling you the facts. It's just too bad that you are the one to act like a child by disbelieving them. Look it up. Japanese Nobel prize winners are sparse, and they have recently made the claims I cited. They did, not me.

The difference in sience field is a little even in art ,and by politicsYes, of course, but very little, if any, critical thinking is needed in art, so that is an unfair thing to bring up. As for politics, well, I think their poor track record at accomplishing anything speaks for itself. They can't agree on anything right now, and they keep flip-flopping on such important issues as English education in Japan. Zero critical thinking there.

It is true that the US, UK, Germany and France are great countries in terms of the Nobel prize, but I cannot say the rest of countries lack creativity.I thought this thread was about Japan.

[caster51]

critical thinking skills are what needs to be considered. Looking at the way education is taught (and in some aspects this shares with American education in pre-college), things are ultimately very linear and one track. History is taught as fact, memorization is key, but analytical skills, questioning, and combination of data with a new focus based on "facts" seems to be rather lacking

in my critical thinking, it is an arrogance based on ignorance ....
for example, in whaling problem, some historical issue about Nanking, ....
where is an objective evidence?
I think it is easy for you to be brainwashed.
at first , you should doubt youself using your favorite critical thinking

How could Jesus revive?

btw
many Japanese are surely not good at discussion by some reasons.
it is defferent from critical thinking..

[caster51]

they keep flip-flopping on such important issues as English education in Japan. Zero critical thinking there.

i dont think it is important for them?
did Japanese language education in other country get along well?
as far as Japanese landuage is prohibited, even if everthing are changed by your favorite critical thinking and you, it would not change it in certain limit period


am only telling you the facts. It's just too bad that you are the one to act like a child by disbelieving them. Look it up. Japanese Nobel prize winners are sparse, and they have recently made the claims I cited. They did, not me

i will tell you the fact. can you get Nobel prize by your "creativity"
if there was a Japanese Nobel prize, how could get their creativity?..

[Emoni]

This isn't exactly going the direction I had hoped...

[JimmySeal]

I dont know what individual thought means?
who does not have it:?
Individual thought is the act of forming thoughts and opinions without being taught how to do so, or opinions that are different from the pre-accepted ideas of a group.
Japanese culture goes a long way to discourage individual thought:
出るくいは打たれる


This is at the heart of the reason why Engish education is failing so poorly in Japan. Teachers don't believe that students can think for themselves and as a result, spoon-feed them every single little bit of information, in triplicate.
The students naturally come to believe that they can't learn a language without a teacher or a textbook handing them every detail and they don't learn to think for themselves.
Then some of these students grow up to be English teachers, and the vicious cycle continues.

[Mike Cash]

Japanese culture goes a long way to discourage individual thought:
出るくいは打たれる

I have found that in daily life situations, particularly at work, the English expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" applies very strongly in Japan. Odd, since it seems to contradict the well-known and oft-cited expression you mentioned.


This is at the heart of the reason why Engish education is failing so poorly in Japan. Teachers don't believe that students can think for themselves and as a result, spoon-feed them every single little bit of information, in triplicate.
The students naturally come to believe that they can't learn a language without a teacher or a textbook handing them every detail and they don't learn to think for themselves.


And as many who have taught English conversation in Japan can attest, it also leads a great many to believe that plopping down in front of a teacher is the beginning and end of what is required in order to learn.

[Glenski]

This isn't exactly going the direction I had hoped...
Yes, I figured that. Caster's remarks are completely incomprehensible to me, as usual. Doesn't help, does it?

I strongly suggest that if you want to keep this thread, you'd better monitor it often and ask some very specific questions, otherwise you're only going to get this sort of stuff. I highly recommend distinguishing between creativity and critical thinking, for one. Japan has artists, musicians, living national treasures, etc. that all show Japan's own brand of creativity. However, when you look at "Japan, Inc." and its tradition of copycat production and work until karoshi, well, where is the creativity?

Now, Emoni, you started the thread not looking at artists or Japan, Inc., but instead naming this thread "Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?" You then mention some (few?) places that apparently try to instill creativity in the classrooms. I can throw Future University at you as one example. I hope you can come up with others. From there, we might actually have something that responds to what you want to discuss, but I think in general, Japan's education system is still archaic. Two examples: English prep which is changing only ever so slowly yet largely remains fixed on college entrance exams, and the classroom chaos that is growing as a result of the teaching attitudes that refuse to budge.

To make an attempt (futile, but whatever) to reply to caster:

they keep flip-flopping on such important issues as English education in Japan. Zero critical thinking there.

i dont think it is important for them?What isn't important? English education in Japan or critical thinking? I assume you mean the former, but look at the Koizumi adminstration to contradict what you just wrote. There is no critical thinking involved in deciding whether to teach English properly here. All dinosauric thinking.

did Japanese language education in other country get along well?Better than what Japan does with English, but that is not the point, is it? Please don't confuse the issue.

as far as Japanese landuage is prohibitedWhere did this random thought come from? Your own lack of critical evaluation skills seem to have brought this up, caster. I'm lost.

i will tell you the fact. can you get Nobel prize by your "creativity"I will assume you are asking me personally. The answer is maybe. But, then again, that is not the point here. And, the fact that you have to invent a "Japanese Nobel Prize" only goes to show how badly you lost this argument. (In case you think I didn't know, there actually is something akin to that, called the Kyoto Prize. Foreigners have won it, too, including cell biologists, Jane Goodall, Noam Chomsky, etc. http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/446503 and http://www.kyotoprize.org/ and http://www.kyotoprize.org/prizewinners.htm ). Japanese winners are actually in the minority (and have produced zero winners in the categores of Information Science and Thought & Ethics). So much for elitism.

btw
many Japanese are surely not good at discussion by some reasons.
it is defferent from critical thinking.. No, it is not, but that shows again how poorly you even perceive this issue.

[FrustratedDave]

Yes, I figured that. Caster's remarks are completely incomprehensible to me, as usual. Doesn't help, does it?


Glenski, however much I do not agree with alot of casters remarks, don't ridicule him for not being able to convey what he wants to. I suggest caster write in Japanese if he were really wanting to be understood.

[pipokun]

...
However, when you look at "Japan, Inc." and its tradition of copycat production and work until karoshi, well, where is the creativity?


The thread is about the college education in Japan...


And, the fact that you have to invent a "Japanese Nobel Prize" only goes to show how badly you lost this argument.

Right. So I attached the interesting source above.

[Emoni]

I suggest caster write in Japanese if he were really wanting to be understood.

There is a chance that there is a language problem here I guess. I'm not following caster's logic either.

Caster, if you could, feel free to post in Japanese if you think that would express what you are trying to say better. I know I can't say everything I want in Japanese... not even close.

[Glenski]

Yes, this is a thread about college education and the lack of creativity/critical thinking skills it fosters. Fosters, hence, I wrote about the end results (Japan, Inc. being one of them). It is not off topic, pipokun.

Dave,
I am not ridiculing caster. I deal with poorly written English every day in the university where I work (and I handled even worse in the 4 years I taught HS here). I simply cannot grasp what he says, and moreover he seems to persist in an elitist sort of attitude about Japan. It is the latter I am more calling him out for. Clearer posts would help, of course, but I think there is more to it than that.

As for writing in Japanese, please, I urge you NOT to do that! There are plenty of people here who could contribute but cannot read Japanese at all. The forum is largely in English, and we have a separate forum for Japanese. I suggest the mods take a stand here, re: language to be used vs. replies that do not stay on topic.

[Emoni]

I see nothing wrong with an explanation in Japanese that might assist in expressing what he is trying to say. Especially if he gives a summary in English below. It is up to him of course, but limiting the venues for communication never help.

Caster, it would be helpful if you make a CLEAR and concise post about what your point is. I'm sorry but the posts above are confusing and quite unfocused. They ultimately come off nationalistic and almost baiting an argument and flame war rather than discussing the issue I mentioned regarding critical thinking in Japanese schools. If the post in Japanese language would help, I don't see a problem. However, for the sake of others who can't read it consider posting a summary of what you said in Japanese in English too.

Thanks.

[Glenski]

Emoni, if he cannot give a clear Englsh explanation, how is it going to help? He can't seem to do it now WITHOUT the Japanese, so (as I wrote in my recent PM to you), someone is going to have to translate.

Oh, just read this very nice article (supported with references, a good sign of critical thinking) on the topic you want to discuss. I suggest everyone reads it.
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquiry/spr95/davidson.html

[butakun]

Why do people keep discussing English education and Nobel laureates is beyond me. Very few of Japanese Nobel laureates were educated outside Japan. I wonder how they got their creativity. Perhaps that's also what caster was trying to say above.

My higher education was in the US. I work in a very European environment, but frequently deal with Japanese and Indian engineers as well. I simply don't see any difference in creativity/critical thinking. What I notice often is in fact young graduates from anywhere lack severely critical thinking.

Perhaps Japanese individuals are highly creative, yet they get buried in a big organizational scale?

[Emoni]

Oh, just read this very nice article (supported with references, a good sign of critical thinking) on the topic you want to discuss. I suggest everyone reads it.
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquiry/spr95/davidson.html

Just started reading this and even at a glance this is exactly the sort of material I was hoping for. VERY good find...

(Half way through, I'm going to put this link in the top main thread post above as it is EXACTLY the sort of topic I was hoping to cover. Thanks Glenski.)

[caster51]

JimmySeal

Individual thought is the act of forming thoughts and opinions without being taught how to do so, or opinions that are different from the pre-accepted ideas of a group.
Japanese culture goes a long way to discourage individual thought:
出るくいは打たれる

individual thought has a nothing to do with 出るくいは打たれる.


The students naturally come to believe that they can't learn a language without a teacher or a textbook handing them every detail and they don't learn to think for themselves.
Then some of these students grow up to be English teachers, and the vicious cycle continues

I don understand that.
I can say it is just your poor imagination.

[Emoni]

caster, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but with everything you just posted right now you've lost that from me. I was told by another poster that they sometimes wonder if you are simply trolling threads like this and I am now seriously considering that as a possibility.

You are providing no argument for your statements, you are making claims that are entirely unrelated, and insulting others while seemingly trying to provoke a flame war. I've been under a lot of stress lately so I guess I was more naive than usual in regards to this behavior.

I'm simply going to ask that you respectfully stop posting in such a way and derailing this thread. I suggest you read the article Glenski posted and also sit back for a few days and think about the posts you have put up here.

[caster51]

Originally Posted by Emoni
This isn't exactly going the direction I had hoped...

I knew thet from begining...

Better than what Japan does with English, but that is not the point, is it? Please don't confuse the issue.

I think it is a kind of intensive language course, right?
it is impossible for ordinal high school.

as far as Japanese landuage is prohibited....

Where did this random thought come from? Your own lack of critical evaluation skills seem to have brought this up, caster. I'm lost.

it is easy way to study the language in natives.
however i cant understand the Foreigner who stay in Japan more than two years cant speak Japanese well . how about you?

Foreigners have won it, too, including cell biologists, Jane Goodall, Noam Chomsky, etc.

Do you think that they arise only from creativity and critical thinking?

[caster51]

There is a chance that there is a language problem here I guess. I'm not following caster's logic either.
Caster, if you could, feel free to post in Japanese if you think that would express what you are trying to say better. I know I can't say everything I want in Japanese... not even close.

if you are good at japanese, you should write in Japanese forum because of Question "Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?"

what do you need here to get right answer?

[caster51]

Emoni;
Japanese college is kind of four years vacation except law, science and certain speciality feilds.
humanities, social sciences, and fine arts is **** field and useless.
To learn the real world is more important for them.
it mean part time job( like washig dishes in restaurant , construction laborer...) , to make a connection and hobby in the future..

The problem is what you will do in four years for dream.
in order to learn critical thinking in university? I dont think so.
I learnt it through that well in the real tangle of youth
day time in university was a sleeping time for me though I could get so many friends and connection as a treasure. which is better?

[Mars Man]

Well, well, well...I am, and then I'm not surprized. This seems like a fair enough subject to discuss, even debate. . . but let's not get all tangled up in a mess of disconnected argumentive jabs and plunges, please gentlemen (and well, we have yet any ladies, so I'll stop here). [caster51 san, I ask for your best efforts here please, and it is very clear that your first post (#2) was overprotective without due cause]

Yes, critical thinking is a frame of mind which needs to be implemented in the earlier years of education. It is something which needs to begin at home, actually. . . rather than in the public (or private) school system. It is something that I have focused on in working with my boys, whose public education obviously has lacked greatly in that area.

Now as for the university level, I think we'll find a bit of a spread, yes, but just what would be the average, it seems, may truthfully be that critical thinking is still under applied. ① The OP was very clear in pointing out that we are looking at gross averages here, so no one should misconstrue that. I agree, and some in the medical fields I have had the pleasure of working with--including professor emeriti--also agree, that too much of the higher education format here in Japan is 'a vacation' as caster51 has posed above.

What might be done, therefore, to implement motivation for students of higher education here in Japan to more broadly activate themselves? This is one major issue which the Monbusho has been putting on universities these days, and one which our institution is working on with deeper and more involvement with facuty development as well as staff development. Critical thinking is the goal. Critical thinking is what we are trying to apply so as to spur the students earlier into a more active learning frame of mind.

There will have to be a tie between critical thinking at large, and creativity--it simply goes without saying--but just how strong that tie is, or in what area is lies, is something I've yet to think about.

Let's see. Caster51 san, you are, if I am not mistaken, in the education field, correct?


① I use 'applied' because I'd rather think of the frame of mind that critical thinking is, as something that is more of an acquired thing, than a learned thing, and thus application of that frame of mind by the 'educators' will be picked up on by the 'educatees.'

[caster51]

Let's see. Caster51 san, you are, if I am not mistaken, in the education field, correct?

i think an indinidual critical thinking is not gotton from academic field such like university.
the problem is they dont know the real world

for example, even OP does not come out from education.
it came out merely from his comparison.

[Mars Man]

Let me re-word (use different words to help in understanding) that; are you a teacher, caster51 san? It seems I recall that from somewhere in the past.

You are partly correct with that claim there, caster51 san, as far as I have considered it. Critical thinking (which can overlap, but need not be totally equal to individualism) primarily is not a subject, like math, art, or PE, but is a mode of activity of mind applied towards the act and state of knowing. Critical thinking needs to start from pre-school.

[caster51]

Marsman;
I am just an invester as self-styled and runing of family business.
it is enogh for me to understand the stock market articles and MLB in English..
as for investing stock , it is easy to learn the critical thinking as usual..:p
if you do business youself, critical thinking is useless at all until getting a success

[Mars Man]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I understand the hardships in 'working' (so to speak) in a second language--if all those papers from administration, education department, and job-hunting support were in English, it'd help somewhat.

In the education arena, here in Japan, I have (in written comments to my son's teachers), and would suggest that the teachers (who really are over-worked anyway, only adding to the loss) challenge various aspects of what they teach before the students. This was at the jr. highschool level.

In that questioning and challenging so as to affirm or dislodge a claim or theory or point in case on a matter of understanding, is what critical thinking is, the application of critical thinking will encourage students to take a more active role in searching and verifying or refutting--this is a healthier learning style.

One side point of interest here, if I may, is that I have always interpreted the proverb that Mike Cash has raised, as equalling that of the Japanese proverb that JimmySeal has raised. I can see a different interpretation, but which is more commonly taken, the negative or the positive? (positive as in 'getting attention in a postive way' while yet keeping the whole functioning properly)

[caster51]

all we know the critical thinking is not a mere complaint and dissatisfaction.
the critical thinking is needed for improvment and evolution by trial and error.
so i understand critical thinking is the trial and error of experiment
indeed, if there is the lack.., it is impossible to kaizen in the system as the Japanese motto...
I think Japan is challenging more than others though the result is not my business:sorry:

Unfortunately, ,The current state of the education of Japan is worse than before because of too many individual critical thinking of the monster kids

[Emoni]

Unfortunately, ,The current state of the education of Japan is worse than before because of too many individual critical thinking of the monster kids

... :wary:

Want to explain how? Dare I ask...

Honestly caster, I don't believe you have an understanding of what "critical thinking" is, especially from an academic or educational standpoint.

I'm going to step out on a limb here. I've often heard the goal and hope of Japanese education is to instill a motivation to learn. Whereas I dare say that the goal of Western higher education (university level and prior to it) is to instill an understanding of critical and analytical thinking and evaluation. It is absolutely vital for graduate studies I believe.

I believe it does exist in Japan, but in a much lower degree than Western education systems. Keep in mind, I'm NOT saying that it exists in a strong degree in American primary education, but does exist in some form along with emphasis on other things such as individual creativity, and independent thought. However, I don't want to derail anything as those are seperate topics. I will say that in my opinion, and others may be able to support me on this, critical thinking skills tend to be the corner stone of university education in regards to research and cuts to the core to the true meaning of "education."

[pipokun]

大学院を修了しても「２人に１人」は定職に就けず、「フリーター博士」は１万２０００人以上。専任教員を夢 見ながら、非常勤講師やコンビニ店員、肉体労働で食いつなぐ。

Only one out of two Ph. Ds. can get a full time position. More than 12000 of Dr. Freeter dreaming of a "full-time postion" are estimated in Japan...
http://book.asahi.com/author/TKY200711140234.html

Not now, but there was a special payment exemption program who won the government scholarship only when they met certain criteria.
Some lucky full-time researchers enjoy the exemption. On the other hands, many Dr. Freeters have to get smaller salary and pay back huge amount of 10 year worth scholarship.

But is this (post-doc) only Japan's problem?
Stanford University and School of Medicine Minimum Annual Pay as of October 1, 2008
$40,785
http://postdocs.stanford.edu/handbook/salary.html

For non-American researchers, it sounds good to be a researching slave for 40000USD, and for them, they also might get some reputation to do great researches working under a great professor in the US when they return to their home country.
This is what you call the American (I don't use "Western" here) critical and analytical thinking and evaluation.

[Mars Man]

I would say, pipokun san, that the matter you have presented, actually, misses the mark of the intent of the object of investigation here. Faults in any education system will exist, and the OP has allowed room for that, so it would not be of concern here, really. Also, while the OP does bring up a comparative attitude (American university compared to Japanese university), the main drive does focus on the Japanese education system's adherence to, or failure to adhere to a program of critical thinking instillment.

I do not reason that there is any need here to take any agressive-like, defensive position towards the topic nor the OP, and would like to encourage fair-play there, by all.

Again, I would argue that critical thinking should begin before public education, at home, in the early forming years--but that will depend upon the parents and immediate family situations, as well as society in general.

The elementary schools in our area, at least, show signs of being very regimental in structure and that reaches down to the student level as well. Emphasis is placed on a certain procedure for certain events or general execution of certain school matters. Critical thinking would allow students to test that without fear of reprisal from the teaching staff. Critical thought process, if used in the school, would allow the teaching staff itself to test what comes down from the board of education--all the way up to the monbusho. Of course, that is not going to happen, so critical thinking as a natural part of the Japanese school system, is very weak. (And I'm speaking in non-comparative terms here, other than what I reason as being the ideal setting for learning orientated environments.) This is one example.

[pipokun]

If you try to do the fair-play, we have to consider the unfairness in the public education in the US that kids in property tax rich areas have better opportunity as well, though I am fully aware that the critical mindset is not necessarily the result of public spending.

It is true that Japan spends much fewer money on the public education. It is more equality-oriented, so lack of the critical thinking process, in the name of equal opportunity, in the public school brings more students (parents, actually) to choose private junior high school options in Japan.

It might be the best if you established a school which would give kids...
the Finnish problem-solving skill,
the Indian mathematical skill,
the Chinese competitive environment,
free public education in some European countries without being threatened by paying back huge student loans,
and more
under the poor public spending like Japan.

But it is rather challenging to establish such an "if-then" school.

[Glenski]

Where to begin? Sigh.

caster: (re: Kyoto Prize winners) Do you think that they arise only from creativity and critical thinking?
me: No, but they wouldn't have won the prize without such attributes.

caster: (re: using Japanese) what do you need here to get right answer?
me: Clear English that stays on topic.

caster to emoni: Japanese college is kind of four years vacation except law, science and certain speciality feilds.
me: I used to think that, but I work in a top science university. It's still largely a vacation. Kids sleep in class, and their research is mostly just what the major prof wants, not anything creative or individual. Grads get hired because of ties between advisors and industry, not because of creativity or grades.

caster: in order to learn critical thinking in university? I dont think so.
I learnt it through that well in the real tangle of youth
day time in university was a sleeping time for me though I could get so many friends and connection as a treasure. which is better?
me: Off-topic response. Besides, how do you learn critical thinking as a youth?

caster: the problem is they dont know the real world
me: Actually, I and social pundits agree, but that still doesn't answer the OP's questions about critical thinking vs. creativity.

caster: I am just an invester as self-styled and runing of family business.
it is enogh for me to understand the stock market articles and MLB in English..
as for investing stock , it is easy to learn the critical thinking as usual..
me: If it is that easy, then all investors would be rich.

caster: if you do business youself, critical thinking is useless at all until getting a success
me: Please explain this more fully. It says you don't need critical thinking until AFTER you are a success, which I disagree with, but I really don't understand you.

caster: the critical thinking is needed for improvment and evolution by trial and error.
so i understand critical thinking is the trial and error of experiment
me: This is the closest you have come to providing your definition of critical thinking, and I think it shows just how strange and different it is from the rest of us (unless you can explain it better). Critical thinking is logic applied to resolving questions and problems, so yes, sometimes it involves experimentation, but you contradict yourself in how you got it (your youth), how important it is (you say it's not important until after one has achieved success), and that for doing your type of business it is easy to learn (a point that the majority of people in your field cannot support).

caster: Unfortunately, ,The current state of the education of Japan is worse than before because of too many individual critical thinking of the monster kids
me: Ok, that is your opinion, and I would agree that in part it is true. Realize that such statements have been made for thousands of years, though. We are trying to determine whether critical thinking and/or creativity can be taught for the benefit of Japanese people, not how today's youths are rebelling ("classroom chaos" is one example). Please stay on topic.

pipokun talks of small salaries for PhD's and seems to relate/equate that to critical thinking. I am lost there. Einstein had his greatest moments of creativity and critical thinking working in a patent office. Money (ie, salary) does not equate with critical thinking, nor how it can be fostered.

MarsMan says critical thinking should start at home before public education. Perhaps it does already in every culture, but if you want to teach it formally with people who have studied it, you need to present it in schools. The Japanese social life in all sectors of education (K-12 to university) deals with more of the social aspects of living and working together, instead of developing academics and inventive minds. Emoni's question, I believe, is whether Japan can add the development I just mentioned to its curriculum. I wouldn't expect the country to change or eliminate its current cultural style where students learn how to live and work together, because it is a fundamental part of the social and business structure, but to improve upon people's ability to be more creative is definitely needed, IMO.

Wasn't it Prime Minister Mori who boldly stated that one of Japan's goals was to obtain a certain (high) number of Nobel prizes in the next X years? http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4320903-108018,00.html Wasn't it he or Koizumi that said Japan would strive to be the top IT country in the world in just 5 years? Koizumi recognized the need to make English (the lingua franca of the world's scientific community, and nearly the same for the international business world) mandatory as early as the elementary schools (yet Abe quashed that, and Fukuda has done nothing to change matters)?

More links from Japanese Nobel prize winners' thoughts on creativity in Japan:
www.chem.uic.edu/marek/trips/japan/esakispeech.doc (2001)
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/2001/noyori-autobio.html (note his references to education abroad and the influence of western thinking)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4320903-108018,00.html (last paragraph)

Some things Japan is doing to foster more creative thinking.
http://www.cdb.riken.jp/en/04_news/articles/070906_yomiuri_nhk.html (I want to know more about this!)
http://wwics.si.edu/topics/pubs/asiarpt121.pdf (2004, covers some GOOD business practices and noble goals)


P.S. Has anyone else even glanced at the links I provided? Would love to hear your responses.

[pipokun]

According to your critical thinking skill, "Western" seems to be categorized into a sort of one country...

What I wanted to say was not money which researchers earn, but even in one country, the US, public spending on education is based on the property tax which kids have no choice of.
And I simply think better educational environments may be a better education.


P.S. Has anyone else even glanced at the links I provided? Would love to hear your responses.
Sorry, I don't read the provided links, but nobody thinks the Japanese system would be perfect, so there are many kaizen activities.

Correct me if I am wrong, the poor English education is what Emoni wanted to discuss here. Speak it out loud in other thread.

[Revenant]

Critical thinking requires objectivity and logic, both of which took me some time to learn on the net. I would say that the Canadian school system better promotes critical thinking, with debate about hot topics and stuff, still, there are a lot of people that are more driven by theiur emotion and what they want to believe than what's real (I include myself in there, as I wasn't terribly objective when I first hit the forums).

Logic is a whole other skill that some people do well at, but others don't take the time to learn.

I'd say that with the emphasis on getting along here, most people don't challenge each other's opinions and beliefs for fear of disrupting the harmony and stuff. Ask a lot of Japanese about a contraversial topic, a lot will simply say that some people believe this, and others believe that, and that it's a diffcult issue. They don't give their own opinion on that topic.

What I found since I started debating on the net, was that having people challenge my opinions and beliefs was a great way to look at my opinions and beliefs and see if they were somehow off the mark. A lot of my beliefs and opinions have gone through incredible changes since hitting the forums.

[Mars Man]

I would like to point out here, pipokun san, that somehow you have got it wrong:

Correct me if I am wrong, the poor English education is what Emoni wanted to discuss here. Speak it out loud in other thread.

The OP is clear enough on that, and the general line of topic is clear enough, actually. Now I am a little puzzled over why you have responded the way you have in post numbers 38, and 40.

This has almost nothing to do educational budgets. We should try to refrain from comparisons--we are talking only of the situation in Japan. Let's all please keep this in mind.

I agree with pipokun that better educational environments make for better education (and that begins at home) and that one way of improving that environment here in Japan would possibly be to implement more critical thinking activities from elementary school--little by little.

If, in Japan, on average, this mode of thinking process had been applied in educational settings, then it would be much more active in child raising (in circumstances where parents have gone through that system fully). That would mean pre-school and then elementary school up. Therefore while I agree that it has to applied (thus taught) in schools, it should be applied (thus taught) at home too--and firstly.

[FrustratedDave]

Dave,
I am not ridiculing caster. I deal with poorly written English every day in the university where I work (and I handled even worse in the 4 years I taught HS here). I simply cannot grasp what he says, and moreover he seems to persist in an elitist sort of attitude about Japan. It is the latter I am more calling him out for. Clearer posts would help, of course, but I think there is more to it than that.

As for writing in Japanese, please, I urge you NOT to do that! There are plenty of people here who could contribute but cannot read Japanese at all. The forum is largely in English, and we have a separate forum for Japanese. I suggest the mods take a stand here, re: language to be used vs. replies that do not stay on topic.
Actually I tend to agree with the Japanese writting thing, I don't know why I suggested that.:okashii: And thanks for clearing that up about the poor English comment I said, I was just checking to see if we were on the same page.

[reset]

If learning critical thinking means learning logic, analysis, evaluation, cognitive skills, objectiveness, etc. it should be taught in Japan.

Someone mentioned debate, but if the classroom application of critical thinking is debate, it's actually ineffective in promoting that mode of thinking. It's weak in certain areas.

1. It locks participants into "either-or" "right-wrong" "good-bad" positions, limiting alternative possibilities that don't fit into either category. It also largely ignores creative solutions to problems.

2. Certain competitiveness in debate encourages people to find fault with the opponents' position even where there's no fault. Like someone said, people just insist their position no matter what, just for the sake of consistency, so lack of intellectual humility, lack of rational self-reflection are weaknesses. (Like caster said it.).

3. No consensus building, when a consensus is required.

Actually, Japan does better in these areas, I believe.

Classical debate is outdated. What's the best way to teach/learn critical thinking in Japan?

[Glenski]

reset,
I've encountered debate in Japan. It is very different from western style. Compare Japan's style to bowling. Everyone waits while one person delivers his ball (topic). Then the next person, and so on. In western style (informal, anyway), it is more dynamic like tennis.

The 2 difficult parts of western style debating for Japanese are:
1) refuting statements, even if they have time to do so.
2) refuting statements when they DON'T have time.

Believe me, I've tried. I can point out a guy who does this in high school with moderate success, but it takes a heckuva lot of planning and explanation. Most people get only a smattering of the process (which is still partially based on critical thinking to make or refute points), but that's about all.

[Revenant]

Reset: I disagree with point one, as debaters who aren't assigned a side often do think about what was said in a debate later and change positions on it. They may try to hold on to whatever position they had going into the debate, but then a lot of them also change positions after a debate.

Also, I think people do try to find fault, I agree, but there's only so myuch fault one can try to find with a more correct position. You'll notice that in certain debates, that one side runs out of attacks and defenses. Is it just because of the quality of the debaters? I'd have to say that in a few cases it is just the quality of the debaters, but in others, one side clearly has a more correct position.

In a Tibetan monestary, debate is done before others, so most people can judge for themselves who has the more logical argument. Competition sharpens skills... there's not really a fear that debate will cause 'good and bad' sides, or that, and people can see who lacks humilty or rational self-reflection.. so there's little doubt as to who has got those skills and who hasn't... but the again, those that don't really have it do improve their critical thinking... the environment demands it.

Lastly, Japan lags behind the west for so many reasons. In America, there's a lot of contraversy, and lots of people with strong opinions, however it is a country that makes a lot of advances in the sciences and other areas, in Japan, they simply follow the steps of the western world, and in a lot of areas, like law, they're ten years behind the western countries. I don't know that we should give up debate and advancement for the sake of consensus... as is done here in Japan.

[reset]

"Japan vs the west" ---I don't think that comparison is a good one.

Japan is only ONE country, the West is MANY countries.
Japan's population is fairly static, the Western population is highly mobile.
Japan needs more active effort to import ideas from the outside world, the West is just sitting there, and new people, new ideas come in.

[pipokun]

A major correction. Sorry for my poor English.

...
Correct me if I am wrong, the poor English education is NOT what Emoni wanted to discuss here. Speak it out loud in other thread.


What I wanted to say was "if you want to discuss the English education, please go to other thread".

[Mars Man]

I don't know if you have any experience with the school system in Japan, reset san, but your presentation on debate is faulty, largely due to missing the 'exercise in thinking' part of the matter.

To debate, a person has to be able to think in a critical mode in order to deduce conclusions from facts of data--evidence (and even at times be able to do so in determining the validity of such). A person has to be able to debate both the pro and the con of an issue or proposition. A person will have to learn more than what can be learned simply by rote memory.
One text I have used and still do, kind of puts it like this (which has bearing):

In recognition of these realities about learning, knowledge, and the scientific method, this book presents not just a collection of facts, but a description of the prodedures, experiments, and logical reasoning that scientists have used in their attempt to understand the physciology of behavior. If, in the interest of expediency, you focus on the conclusions and ignore the process that leads to them, you run the risk of acquiring information that will quickly become obsolete. On the other hand, if you try to understand the experiments and see how the conclusions follow from the results, you will acquire knowledge that lives and grows. �@

While this is a specific example, the general principle is what I have intended to appeal to here. This underscores the importance of thinking critically.

Creativity is very much tied in with imagination. Imagination, the greater bulk of the better evidence tells us, is very much tied in with a certain brain state wherein the right hemsphere tends more so to 'dress up' certain picked up and associated left-brain sequences of pure data, and often runs in positive correlation with non-norm, abstract bent brain states--very high degrees of imagination being associate with what would other wise be mental illnesses.

When we talk of critical thinking, therefore, we would be focusing less on imagination (creativity) and more on the good ole left hemisphere matter of sequential data in space/time--ration and all its branches. Therefore critical thinking applying creative conception would prove to better build and organize developed thinking processes than creative conception applying rote data would; if that's worded correctly. It could be alikened, as I see it, to teaching one to fish, to eat, rather than simply giving one a fish to eat.



�@ Physiology of Behavior by Neil R. Carlson, 7th ed. 2001, p23

[pipokun]

It is true that the debating skill is one of the problem solving skills for your critical mindset, but the kaizen activities and other problem solving styles are also the tools for thinking critically, aren't they?
It is great of Glenski to try to teach a debate form in English. But does the poor debating skill in a foreign language mean the lack of critical thinking?

Revenant said something that Japanese avoid discussing (maybe) touchy topics.
It is partly true that I can hardly imagine a business situation where you can freely discuss controversial issues in your office. Also, I cannot imagine the situation in Canada/the US, either.

[Revenant]

reset: The emphasis here is on 'group harmony', and I've seen students who have had a differing opinion from another student just nod their heads or keep quiet for fear of disrupting the group harmony. Now debate is just one way of testing one's opinions and beliefs, but it has proven quite useful, as a lot of people including myself have changed positions on topics due to more correct information that the other side has brought to the discussion.

And rote learning has it's uses, but that along with the group harmony mindset has put the Japanese at a disadvantage in terms of critical thinking. The scientists and medical researchers do better at critical thinking, but even they avoid debate on hot topics, and it's sort of hard to gain a different perspective when your opinions or beliefs are based solely on what you know, rather than on what everyone brings to the table.

I think there's more involved than Japan's just one country of static people vs the many western countries with a more mobile population, although that has had some influence on advancing the west.

The avoidance of hot topic debate goes beyond just business or work settings.

[Glenski]

It is great of Glenski to try to teach a debate form in English. But does the poor debating skill in a foreign language mean the lack of critical thinking?
I believe in my cases, yes.

I have taught (or tried to teach) to high school kids, university students, and adults (Japanese teachers of English, no less, all of whom ASKED for the course, yet couldn't hold an argument to save their souls).

[caster51]

I'd say that with the emphasis on getting along here, most people don't challenge each other's opinions and beliefs for fear of disrupting the harmony and stuff. Ask a lot of Japanese about a contraversial topic, a lot will simply say that some people believe this, and others believe that, and that it's a diffcult issue. They don't give their own opinion on that topic.

everbody want to win in an argument as a human desire.
I think it is because there is no profit each other except Specialized field.

Especially,as for the ideology or religion, it becomes a fight.
it is not seen the progress from ancient

What I found since I started debating on the net,
you are right. because the face is not seen..

[caster51]

caster: (re: Kyoto Prize winners) Do you think that they arise only from creativity and critical thinking?
me: No, but they wouldn't have won the prize without such attributes.

of course I know.it is natural for most researchers..
What is researcher's difference? because it is the lack of critical thinking?
i dont think so

however, can you take it if there is such attributes...?





caster to emoni: Japanese college is kind of four years vacation except law, science and certain speciality feilds.
me: I used to think that, but I work in a top science university. It's still largely a vacation. Kids sleep in class, and their research is mostly just what the major prof wants, not anything creative or individual. Grads get hired because of ties between advisors and industry, not because of creativity or grades.

I dont konw what you mean by that.
the major prof wants... it means theme was given?
There is not a guarantee that creative or individual do not arise there either.
Actually, it is resultful.

caster: in order to learn critical thinking in university? I dont think so.
I learnt it through that well in the real tangle of youth
day time in university was a sleeping time for me though I could get so many friends and connection as a treasure. which is better?
me: Off-topic response. Besides, how do you learn critical thinking as a youth?

The method of practicing playing soccer might be also so.
The method of taking the high score in the test might be so...
The method of winning the discussion with the friend might be so.
First of all, I thought "waht is human ? if I want to satisfy my life what can I do ?...how does The mechanism of the world move?....so on"


caster: the problem is they dont know the real world
me: Actually, I and social pundits agree, but that still doesn't answer the OP's questions about critical thinking vs..

It rather becomes the evil practice for creativity.
It is easy to lead to dissatisfaction and a complaint...
if i say it concretely It comes from interest and enthusiasm and trial and error...

caster: I am just an invester as self-styled and runing of family business.
it is enogh for me to understand the stock market articles and MLB in English..
as for investing stock , it is easy to learn the critical thinking as usual..
me: If it is that easy, then all investors would be rich.
unfortunately,it is opposite in maket.that is why many ppl try by system trading without critical thinking

caster: if you do business youself, critical thinking is useless at all until getting a success
me: Please explain this more fully. It says you don't need critical thinking until AFTER you are a success, which I disagree with, but I really don't understand you.

It is likely to make it to others' responsibilities...
I mean no one admits my critical thinking until then





so i understand critical thinking is the trial and error of experiment
me: This is the closest you have come to providing your definition of critical thinking, and I think it shows just how strange and different it is from the rest of us (unless you can explain it better). Critical thinking is logic applied to resolving questions and problems, so yes, sometimes it involves experimentation, but you contradict yourself in how you got it (your youth), how important it is (you say it's not important until after one has achieved success), and that for doing your type of business it is easy to learn (a point that the majority of people in your field cannot support).

I mean no one admits my critical thinking until then


me: Ok, that is your opinion, and I would agree that in part it is true. Realize that such statements have been made for thousands of years, though. We are trying to determine whether critical thinking and/or creativity can be taught for the benefit of Japanese people, not how today's youths are rebelling ("classroom chaos" is one example). Please stay on topic.

because School lessons are not interesting...
I think most student know its answer...

[caster51]

japan is a buddhist country.
the typical thought is ..." the result and reason(or cause) are aliways linked..
that is, "creativity as the phenomenon doesn't exist...
because it is not the result.
as fot nobel prize..if you can not get 100% score in exam, you whould not have "creativity" as a result.? I thnk there a concrete cause that could not get...
it is a because of the lack of critical thinking ? it is stupid as the reason.

sleeping in the class> it is not interesting> Why isn't it interesting?>>>

[Mars Man]

caster51 san, as best as I can conceptualize what you are putting forth, I feel that I must again remind you of the scope of the thread (theme and problem) and that no one is pointing to you personally. Also, it would be good to keep in mind that we are looking at the average setting in the Japanese education system here.

I can tell you for a fact, that a person can get 100%s on exams, and still not be creative nor have much of a handle on critical thinking, therefore test results do not amount to that much of a bearing on the problem at hand--a lack of critical thinking, as opposed to a lack of creativity in the average Japanese education system.

Now regarding that last post, caster51　san, could I ask that you please clarify that a bit more. I'm sorry but I cannot reach a firm proposition being presented there in especially those last lines, and that final question.

Then, please correct me if I am wrong here, but is it that you have been taking the position that the Japanese education system does not lack in critical thinking skills being given greater weight in curriculum?

[caster51]

I can tell you for a fact, that a person can get 100%s on exams, and still not be creative nor have much of a handle on critical thinking, therefore test results do not amount to that much of a bearing on the problem at hand--a lack of critical thinking, as opposed to a lack of creativity in the average Japanese education system.



what is it concretly? what result comes out from creativity in the average Japanese education system. lack of nobel prizs?
then i can explain.


creativity and the lack of critical thinking are not connected as a result and cause

Then, please correct me if I am wrong here, but is it that you have been taking the position that the Japanese education system does not lack in critical thinking skills being given greater weight in curriculum

"creativity" has a nothing to do with the lack of critical thinking though i understand its concept

what is a visible phenomenon as the lack of critical thinking skills and creativity"?
what is the cause concretely.? then I can understandit as a real problem

[Mars Man]

Thanks for the response, yet let's work here in critical format method.

caster51, it might firstly be good to re-read the following (from my last post on page 2):

Creativity is very much tied in with imagination. Imagination, the greater bulk of the better evidence tells us, is very much tied in with a certain brain state wherein the right hemsphere tends more so to 'dress up' certain picked up and associated left-brain sequences of pure data, and often runs in positive correlation with non-norm, abstract bent brain states--very high degrees of imagination being associate with what would other wise be mental illnesses.

When we talk of critical thinking, therefore, we would be focusing less on imagination (creativity) and more on the good ole left hemisphere matter of sequential data in space/time--ration and all its branches. Therefore critical thinking applying creative conception would prove to better build and organize developed thinking processes than creative conception applying rote data would; if that's worded correctly. It could be alikened, as I see it, to teaching one to fish, to eat, rather than simply giving one a fish to eat.


What conclusion do you reach from that?

[caster51]

Thanks for the response, yet let's work here in critical format method.
caster51, it might firstly be good to re-read the following (from my last post on page 2):
Creativity is very much tied in with imagination. Imagination, the greater bulk of the better evidence tells us, is very much tied in with a certain brain state wherein the right hemsphere tends more so to 'dress up' certain picked up and associated left-brain sequences of pure data, and often runs in positive correlation with non-norm, abstract bent brain states--very high degrees of imagination being associate with what would other wise be mental illnesses.
When we talk of critical thinking, therefore, we would be focusing less on imagination (creativity) and more on the good ole left hemisphere matter of sequential data in space/time--ration and all its branches. Therefore critical thinking applying creative conception would prove to better build and organize developed thinking processes than creative conception applying rote data would; if that's worded correctly. It could be alikened, as I see it, to teaching one to fish, to eat, rather than simply giving one a fish to eat.

What conclusion do you reach from that?
it is good to know that..

We know the advantage of the positive idea and thinking...
but, it is difficult to keep it though A negative idea is easy to come out in mind. I know its subconsciousness goes to the good direction unconsciously. if everbody have this thinking, War might be gone.
how can keep it concretely? A lot of expensive seminars exist for that.

however , it is a nothing to do with concrete cause to solve.

[caster51]

as one of my conclusion, if students sleep in the class, pro. should give them a "D" .oops "F"
......it is simple.

japan is a shame culture.
we should use this cultural characteristic. that is, as a possibility of the achievement, creativity and etc, " to do the declaration to others" is needed though there is pressure..

I think "to declare something difficult " to friends ,family and etc is important.
for example, if I declared to get 100% score of english exam in front of classmates, how could i do....?. I do the best as possible as i can ..
japanese language is vagu because The verb comes at the end.
The declaration is easily obscured at end because of pressure.
watashi wa tesuto de 100 ten wo toru tumori desu( I get 100% score)..I think tumori is not needed..
I think english is clear to declare. teacher shoud consider it and make them to declare it though students get so many pressure


i think these causes are more important in educauion for that

[tokapi]

The emphasis here is on 'group harmony'

I've seen students who have had a differing opinion from another student just nod their heads or keep quiet for fear of disrupting the group harmony.

Now debate is just one way of testing one's opinions and beliefs, but it has proven quite useful, as a lot of people including myself have changed positions on topics due to more correct information that the other side has brought to the discussion.And rote learning has it's uses, but that along with the group harmony mindset has put the Japanese at a disadvantage in terms of critical thinking.

The avoidance of hot topic debate goes beyond just business or work settings.





Japan's 和 culture of " harmony " came from Prince Shotoku's Seventeen-Article Constitution ( 十七条憲法 )

* Harmony should be valued ( 以和為貴 ) and quarrels should be avoided.

http://www.sarudama.com/japanese_history/jushichijokenpo.shtml

Also,Japanese proverb " the nail that stands out will get hammered down " is still very much alive.

Last thought,no doubts that Japanese are far more creative than those 2 other NE Asian nationalities ( surpassed their old cultural-masters ).

[Glenski]

caster,
Debating in these forums is anonymous, yes. People don't see your face, nor do they have to respond immediately. However, people still need to present clear, logical arguments (points & counterpoints).

I wrote:
I used to think that, but I work in a top science university. It's still largely a vacation. Kids sleep in class, and their research is mostly just what the major prof wants, not anything creative or individual. Grads get hired because of ties between advisors and industry, not because of creativity or grades.
You replied:
I dont konw what you mean by that.
the major prof wants... it means theme was given?
There is not a guarantee that creative or individual do not arise there either.
Actually, it is resultful.
Students do research that their major professors choose most of the time. It is usually a spinoff of his own work, not something original that the students choose. Hence, not much creativity.

I wrote:
We are trying to determine whether critical thinking and/or creativity can be taught for the benefit of Japanese people, not how today's youths are rebelling ("classroom chaos" is one example).
You replied:
because School lessons are not interesting...
I think most student know its answer...
Since you are Japanese, perhaps that is one answer. However, the lessons are not interesting because of the teaching format, and that is one point Emoni was asking about. Topics may stifle creativity and critical thinking because they are presented in a boring manner.

"creativity" has a nothing to do with the lack of critical thinking though i understand its conceptYes, people can be very creative without thinking critically. People can also think very critically without being creative. Emoni was asking whether it makes a difference to try teaching students to be creative. What is your answer? I will also ask if you think it is necessary or possible to teach students to think critically. Many researchers say yes on my question, here and in other countries.

as one of my conclusion, if students sleep in the class, pro. should give them a "D" .oops "F"
......it is simple.

japan is a shame culture.
we should use this cultural characteristic.Well, then, caster, explain something to me. Why do so many students in high school and university sleep through classes, yet the teachers don't flunk them? Instead, the students are (in high school) given make-up tests and outside coaching and more chances to get a passing grade, even though the teachers are the ones to blame for letting the students sleep. Letting them sleep only makes the teachers' work harder, and it doesn't really help the student do what he should have done originally. In university, the situation is a little different, of course, because students can choose to drop a course, but the same situations occur when they stay. That is, teachers let them sleep, let them miss classes (more than the school policy allows), and in the final analysis, teachers pass students. Neither of these situations (high school or university) allows students to develop, learn, or acquire the thinking skills and knowledge they truly need to survive and prosper. What is your opinion of this real happening in your homeland, where shame is supposed to be a way of life?

[caster51]

Yes, people can be very without thinking critically. People can also think very critically without being creative. Emoni was asking whether it makes a difference to try teaching students to be creative. What is your answer? I will also ask if you think it is necessary or possible to teach students to think critically. Many researchers say yes on my question, here and in other countries

my answer was " creativity has a nothing to do with critical thinking"

as the logic, techer should lead the student how to do by Deductive reasoning or Inductive reasoning..
however, i think it is not critical thinking

[tokapi]

Japan is a shame culture





Huh,I don't see how it is relevant to critical thinking though :note:

[caster51]

I don't see how it is relevant to critical thinking though

I mean critical thinking is not the method of concrete reason to solve.

Japan is a shame culture

there is a concrete reason to solve in that.

I mean everthing is connected in human relation.
i want to contribute to someone
I want to win....
I want to be paraised.,,,

if you are alone, what is your purpose to live?
I think students can get purpose ,and use it in that for high possibility using their imagination. if they dont know how to get it, they would ask it voluntary.

I think creativity is based on alot of infomations in the past.
..they have so many informations in their brain like PC otakus or movie otakus. they love to know things that are interested in
they like to criticize to others works because it is not their taste..

how come can they criticize that?
it is not because of critical thinking. it is because of their knowledge and desire that wanted to be admitted
what is creativity? it is their desire and interest to make new one to compare to others.
critical thinking is also same.
It is a desire of wanting someone to admit.
Especially, it might be so for the foreigner because here is Japan and its consciousness is strong..

anyway. creatibity would come from the desire and interest
Japanese education is the lack of giving desire and interest for student.







---------------------------

聞くは一瞬の恥、聞かぬは一生の恥　if they have a purpose

[Glenski]

caster,
I don't know about others here, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in the first half of your last post! So, I find it impossible to respond to it. None of it seems to be on target here.

However, then you wrote this:
what is creativity? it is their desire and interest to make new one to compare to others.
critical thinking is also same.
It is a desire of wanting someone to admit.
I disagree. Creativity is not a desire or an interest. It is an ability to "make new one".
Critical thinking is also not a desire. It is an ability to use rational thought processes to solve problems and find answers.




Sigh. Let's go back to page one, post #1, people. Here is the crux of this thread.

For those who have studied in Japan we've seen at the very least major issues with the college system. (snip)

Many of us I assume have seen the specials about Japan trying to teach "creativity" in schools and using more western based teaching methods. Universities such as Waseda have opened up certain departments which are radically different than previous college departments in that they are more interdisciplinary as well as use new teaching methods.

Is it really "creativity" that is a major problem with Japanese education, or even education in Asia in general? I've come to wonder if it isn't creativity, but actually critical thinking skills.
So, caster (and everyone),
Emoni is asking 2 questions...

1) Is creativity a major problem in Japan or with Asian education in general?

2) Is the problem a lack of creativity or a lack of critical thinking skills?

Let's get back on track.

My answers:
1. I can't speak for the rest of Asia, but I think creativity is a problem in Japanese schools, yes.
2. Both.

[butakun]

In fact, Glenski, you have not presented any convincing examples of the lack of creativity in Japan's education system so far.

1) Students mostly doing spin-offs of supervising professors work.

Yes true. But that is the case everywhere. Why is that lack of creativity? Engineers work incrementally and you do not have to invent everything from scratch to be creative.

2) Students get jobs through supervisors ties with employers, not based on creativity nor grades.

The first is true, but I doubt the second is.

My bottom line is this. I work with many brilliant people from many places, including those educated in Japan, and I simply do not see any lack of creativity from Japanese bunch. They are indeed just as creative. I know I am benefiting from some of the ideas they came up with.

[caster51]

caster,
I don't know about others here, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in the first half of your last post! So, I find it impossible to respond to it. None of it seems to be on target here.
i am trying my creativity. LOL.
"the creatibity comes out from purpose in human relations."
dont you think it is a creativity? :p
my porpose and your critical thinking are different.
if the critical thinking lead creativity and it is common as you said, it is not a creativity. lol
why was critical thiking is occured?.. becuse you want to be paraised ..you want to win the discussion. you want to be agreed....so on


I disagree. Creativity is not a desire or an interest. It is an ability to "make new one".
Critical thinking is also not a desire. It is an ability to use rational thought processes to solve problems and find answers.

to want to make a new one is from desire and interest...
critical thinking is also the interest and desire
I mean if one critical thinking is over, this critical thinking become a result
new critical thinking is occured bracuse of interest ...

So, caster (and everyone),
Emoni is asking 2 questions...


1) Is creativity a major problem in Japan or with Asian education in general?
it is also western major probrem .. ..i mean everywhere.

2) Is the problem a lack of creativity or a lack of critical thinking skills?
NO..


Let's get back on track.
My answers:
1. I can't speak for the rest of Asia, but I think creativity is a problem in Japanese schools, yes.
2. Both.[/QUOTE]

[tokapi]

to want to make a new one is from desire and interest ... critical thinking is also the interest and desire






Do you mean,critical thinking is ineffective if there is no desire to achieve objective goals ?

Software powerhouse Microsoft founder Bill Gates,a college drop-out is now world's richest man ( go figure :souka: :bluush: ).

Is universally known that NE Asians excel in math exceed the level of overall average Western population.Is it lack of problem-solving skills among school-aged N American & European youngsters in a " critical-thinking driven " educational culture,I wonder ?

[caster51]

Do you mean,critical thinking is ineffective if there is no desire to achieve objective goals ?

it is just critical thinking in you mind without action.
it will never be a creativity
if you speak your ctiyical thinking to others, you are interested in.
that is why i said " Declaration" to drive to corner is needed for ppl who is not interested in

[Glenski]

butakun,
This is not my thread, so please direct your inquiries at Emoni. I just responded with what I have learned in the last 20 years (10 of which have been spent in Japan).

1) Students mostly doing spin-offs of supervising professors work.

Yes true. But that is the case everywhere. Why is that lack of creativity? Engineers work incrementally and you do not have to invent everything from scratch to be creative.The spinoffs I refer to are far more prevalent here than where I come from. That's all I can tell you. Students are more drones than original thinkers in the science labs. As for lack of creativity, please visit my writing classes.

2) Students get jobs through supervisors ties with employers, not based on creativity nor grades.

The first is true, but I doubt the second is.Then you don't know that much about the Japanese system. No offense. Grades are unimportant here for the most part. It's the name of the university you graduated from, and the supervisor. Companies want blank slates they can mold. Pretty common knowledge that I'm surprised you haven't heard of.

My bottom line is this. I work with many brilliant people from many places, including those educated in Japan, and I simply do not see any lack of creativity from Japanese bunch. They are indeed just as creative. I know I am benefiting from some of the ideas they came up with.Ok, now we're talking anecdotes. Where do you work (country and field)? How were those Japanese educated? How long have they been in your country? I really don't want to respond further without knowing more background.

[Glenski]

Is universally known that NE Asians excel in math exceed the level of overall average Western population.Is it lack of problem-solving skills among school-aged N American & European youngsters in a " critical-thinking driven " educational culture,I wonder ?
They know the formulas and equations, but I believe they fall far short when faced with story-problems where they have to apply them. I read that somewhere.

Besides, what actual grades are you referring to? Do you know about the horrible grade inflation (read: adjustment) in high school and university here?
Grading System at many/most HS

5 = 80-100%
4 = 60-79%
3 = 45-59%
2 = 30-44%
1 = 0-29%
(You still pass with a 2.)

Moreover, there is a quota system in many/most schools.
15% are 5
25% are 4
40% are 3
20% are 2
0% are 1
(In reality, a few rare students get 1s, but when the grades don't come close to this quota system, teachers are told to adjust the scores of all students so that it will. Been there. Done that.)

[tokapi]

Students are more drones than original thinkers in the science labs. As for lack of creativity, please visit my writing classes.





I believe a good percentage of Japanese in some specific fields do have practical-creativity & applied innovativeness,maybe not among average population ( same for other nations or cultures in this world,don't you think ? ).


Are they known ( or proven ) to have ingenuity for originality ( culturally & scientifically ) :? :note:

[緑さん]

I am no expert on the education system in Japan, and have never actually seen it. But, based on what i'm told about it, i feel that perhaps the problem with Japan's education system is that it's too much like America's... And Britain's... And France's... We notice that the problem with all the education systems is that students usually end up sleeping, having no interest in the class (despite interest in the subject itself), and so forth. We often try to make projects to make things more entertaining (in america) and i assume Japan is probably the same. We never find the solution, because we're looking in the wrong place.

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the whole concept of forcing an idea into some one's head just doesn't work? Some one would much rather decide if a painting is beautiful based on their own opinion than being told that it's beautiful. Students are sitting and listening to teachers speak, then go home with questions about what was spoken about. I am a programmer, but i find classes outside of my area being difficult to stay awake in. There's no creativity encouraged anywhere. Instead of being given a situation where one would want to store a number in a variable then taught what a variable is, we are taught what a variable is. To top it off, even that's watered down. In history, which should be interesting, we're told what happened. No one botheres to speculate why something happens. Is it really a puzzle that students are inclined to sleep after getting plenty of it? We need to be proposed a problem before we can be interested enough to hear an answer. I have an article by a 7th grade math teacher explaining the problem with math class. I have found that it can easily be elaborated on to explain the problems with many classes in america. Not to mention, for 12 years, the school systems have been forcing information down the throat the exact same way... If the student doesn't want to learn a topic, the mind will gain an adaption to reject the method of teaching, like an animal in nature learns to adapt to fill a basic need.

I know the above said pertained alot to america, but from what i'm told, Japanese is just like american education with an emphasis on groups instead of individuals. I believe the solution lies within a view broader than just Japan... It's easy to target one country and find evidence for that one country's lack of ability in something is due to the education. But I, personally, have found that people all over the world, no matter what country you are from, are pretty stupid for well educated individuals. I don't mean to insult anyone here, but i'm just trying to point out the real problem...

[anomouse]

I know the above said pertained alot to america, but from what i'm told, Japanese is just like american education with an emphasis on groups instead of individuals. I believe the solution lies within a view broader than just Japan... It's easy to target one country and find evidence for that one country's lack of ability in something is due to the education. But I, personally, have found that people all over the world, no matter what country you are from, are pretty stupid for well educated individuals. I don't mean to insult anyone here, but i'm just trying to point out the real problem...
True.
I see lack of creativity and critical thinking in about 77 percent of the posts on this exact thread. Haha, no offence.

[Glenski]

I believe a good percentage of Japanese in some specific fields do have practical-creativity & applied innovativeness
Pretty vague response. "Good percentage". What's that? 15% 32% 68% At least give us a ballpark figure of what you "believe".

"Specific fields". No argument there, but we're talking averages. I hate to keep harping on Nobel and Kyoto Prizes, but there are plenty of fields there, yet Japan does poorly on all of them!

same for other nations or cultures in this world,don't you think ?No, I don't think so, and neither do the pundits. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Stick to the topic, please.

I am no expert on the education system in Japan, and have never actually seen it. But, based on what i'm told about it, i feel that perhaps the problem with Japan's education system is that it's too much like America'sNope. Not like it at all. I really really really hope you read the links provided here, otherwise you people just spout off unjustified opinions based on hearsay. Read this. http://www.wes.org/ewenr/05may/practical.htm EDUCATION IN JAPAN

. http://www1.doshisha.ac.jp/~kkitao/library/article/tejk.htm
Teaching English in Japan

Sorry, gotta go to class. Will feed you more, but ya gotta promise to read them!

[緑さん]

I breezed over the first link... I find it some what amusing... Admission tests to get into kindergarten? Sounds to me like people go through so much trouble to get in, then they have trouble keeping people interested since they've worked so hard just to get in... The problem seems to be that no one cares (as there doesn't seem to be anything forcing people to do well)... That could be a good thing... My experience with education around the world has me questioning if schooling beyond 5th grade is worth anything more than the "sheep skin."

[pipokun]

About the method to hire new recruits...

It is not about the critical thinking, but just a different corporate culture from the US.
Generally, Japanese corporations prefer hiring graduate students to Ph.Ds., so you can find the problem of Dr. Freeter.
And if a corporate researcher want to climb up their corporate ladder, you have to be a generalist after they spend certain amount of time as a researcher.

Needless to say, the different career path from the US has nothing to do with the critical thinking, just another rat race after all.

[AroundTheWorld]

Coming from the perspective of an American college student, so don't take this as favoritism:

I think American children are given too much slack. Granted, the Japanese system is strict with examination hell and less vacation time, but I'd be downright disgraced by the academic capacity of some kids that graduate high school in America. At the same time, I think that Japan could do with making school tests a bit easier on its students. I have had many Japanese penpals complain about juku or examination hell, and the high expectations that everyone around them has for them. At the same time, like I said, I think many Americans are lazy.

American kids are taught to speak out and follow their heart, Japanese kids are taught to persevere and sacrifice for the good of the group. You can't blame differences in education on differences in culture. Neither education system is perfect, and neither is a horrible system.

But no, I do not think that Japanese children are lacking in critical thinking, at least not in the ways the Japanese value. Western critical thinking can be rude and often leads to circular logic in individuals without knowledge in a topic field.

I think that we try and teach our children information that is not vital to their career/lives too early, so they are uninterested. I'm sure this happens in any culture. Children should have some academic choices early on, so that they stay interested in school.

Perhaps make examinations a bit easier, though?

[Glenski]

But no, I do not think that Japanese children are lacking in critical thinking, at least not in the ways the Japanese value. And what do you think that may be?

Western critical thinking can be rude and often leads to circular logic in individuals without knowledge in a topic field."Often"?

Perhaps make examinations a bit easier, though?
Are you referring only to the college entrance exams? You need to learn a few things.

1. With the declining population here, by 2050, the acceptance rate for universities will be 100%, which means no matter what exam they take (if they take any at all), they will be accepted.

2. My parenthetical statement above deserves explanation. Schools on the escalator system (sister HS/sister university) don't require entrance exams of their HS graduates. I used to work for one.

3. Universities (and HS) have entrance exams, yes, but not all the time. Some students get in on what is called a "recommendation". And, entrance exams vary in their difficulty: my own university has 3 types, so did my HS.

4. If you are not referring only to entrance exams, here's a little diddy for ya. My previous HS (a fairly prestigious private one) had plenty of the following cases. Japanese teacher gives English test. Student(s) fails. Student gets same exact test and a chance to retake it...6 more times! Still fails, but passes the course. I could cite other examples far worse.

[Kirakira1232]

I'm slightly at a loss of where this topic is heading. Are we cross comparing American Education vs. Japanese education? Critical thinking vs. Creativity? Whether critical thinking gets you a so called "real job" or not? What critical thinking means to the Japanese? The Americans? I feel like having a say...but there are just so many things being thrown around I feel a bit lost...

[AroundTheWorld]

And what do you think that may be?
"Often"?
Are you referring only to the college entrance exams? You need to learn a few things.
1. With the declining population here, by 2050, the acceptance rate for universities will be 100%, which means no matter what exam they take (if they take any at all), they will be accepted.
2. My parenthetical statement above deserves explanation. Schools on the escalator system (sister HS/sister university) don't require entrance exams of their HS graduates. I used to work for one.
3. Universities (and HS) have entrance exams, yes, but not all the time. Some students get in on what is called a "recommendation". And, entrance exams vary in their difficulty: my own university has 3 types, so did my HS.
4. If you are not referring only to entrance exams, here's a little diddy for ya. My previous HS (a fairly prestigious private one) had plenty of the following cases. Japanese teacher gives English test. Student(s) fails. Student gets same exact test and a chance to retake it...6 more times! Still fails, but passes the course. I could cite other examples far worse.

On the Japanese critical thinking comment, I meant that it takes critical thinking to discern all the subtle meanings in Japanese speech and etiquette, all the double entendres. I'd assume that part of the culture blocks out certain aspects of critical thinking for the Japanese... like the perservere mentality taught to children.

As in often, it certainly depends on who you associate with, or which type of context (formal or informal), but I guess I mean that Americans strong in critical thinking are known to sometimes be too expressive in their views, pushy even.

I was, but I was also aware of the other exams. And yes, everyone can stand to learn a few things, and I thank you for educating me. Most of my research on the Japanese school system is regrettably about 10 years out of date by now, forgive me.:relief:

As for the university entrance, I bet a lot of people shoot for the more prestigous schools because they don't want to end up as sararimen.

[緑さん]

As in often, it certainly depends on who you associate with, or which type of context (formal or informal), but I guess I mean that Americans strong in critical thinking are known to sometimes be too expressive in their views, pushy even.

As an american, i can tell you there isn't much "critical thinking" in this country, even from collage students. We are lazy, and to top it off we are taught alot of opinionated BS. Not hard to see why americans are arrogant and stupid. Sit in an american class for a week and you'll really get the idea of why americans are the way they are. School in america is (or seem to be) to teach opinions not facts, contrary to what most americans believe.

We're taught to speak out our mind, even when we know or don't know it's wrong. We're taught to tell everyone how we feel, including strangers if it "makes you feel better." We learn only Evolution, and reject the teaching of any opposing beliefs/opinions, and there are lots more examples, but i feel i may be too indoctrinated to point them out. People outside of the US are quick to criticise americans, but they don't know why we are "stupid" and "arrogant."

I'm slightly at a loss of where this topic is heading. Are we cross comparing American Education vs. Japanese education? Critical thinking vs. Creativity? Whether critical thinking gets you a so called "real job" or not? What critical thinking means to the Japanese? The Americans? I feel like having a say...but there are just so many things being thrown around I feel a bit lost...

I'd love to know... Though this topic is more along the lines of serious discussion... Though, i'm partially at fault.

Needless to say, the different career path from the US has nothing to do with the critical thinking, just another rat race after all.

It's true. People try to get the best position with the least work as possible. Capitalism is good with products, but we can see that it doesn't work well with students. Countries always try to make the curriculum easier to try to "help" students make it. Students are going to do horribly and fail. Weakening the system doesn't help any. Making content easier doesn't help any. Making tests easier doesn't help any. You're just giving everyone an excuse to be lazier if you do that kinda stuff.

I have a really good example. I wake up today, and i find some one asked me something while i was asleep. The problem was, he was in my "Advanced Placement" computer science class.

(12:01:48 PM) NAME REMOVED: i need to know if the motherboard of a computer can handle the ram you want to put in it is there anything special that is needed to be done to install it?
(12:02:24 PM) NAME REMOVED: this is on a vista machine

That's right, an advanced placement student. To truely understand the situation, you must know a little bit about his machine. He runs an AMD Phenom. That means he has a 64bit CPU, and based on what all is released right now, he should be able to use it since not much is too much for the top of the line CPU right now. Now, a short lesson on computer architecture of the intel/amd design will clearly show that he is clueless about it, since it is clear he's asking about device drivers for RAM. See, as a self taught computer student, i can tell you that the computer is made up of 3 major parts from the CPU's point of view. The CPU, Memory, and everything else (I/O devices). When you write a program (including device drivers), it has to first be read into the ram before exectued. Therefore, if a CPU needed device drivers to use RAM, it wouldn't work, because it needs ram to read the device drivers for the ram. Understand? See how much he learns in class? You'd think something like that would be one of the first lessons in computer science, but actually the first lessons are how much better something is than something else. The subject of computer science is an opinion in itself. The course is actually about Java. Java is a program that emulates a computer and operating system, but we don't learn anything about the JVM, actually, except it's special features (all of which are evaluated based on opinion more than fact). How did i learn about computers in that course? All i "learned" was how much better Java is than everything else and how to use Java. So much for learning about computers in that class. Thank God i study outside of school.

[tokapi]

As an american,I can tell you there isn't much "critical thinking" in this country,even from college students.

We are taught alot of opinionated BS.

We're taught to speak out our mind, even when we know or don't know it's wrong.





Thanks so much for honest down to earth post :relief:

[Glenski]

Would be nice if the original poster returned once in a while to steer the thread. I'm done with it until it's back on course. WAY too far off on tangents now (and didn't I just recently copy/paste the very first post's question...?).

[bakaKanadajin]

I read the original post and the article which was also provided. My limited teaching experience would tend to agree with the material presented insofar as the Japanese definitely aren't accustomed to being vocal about issues and formulating strong, individualized opinions about things. Many generalizations do come to mind about the fabric of Japanese society being one of 'high-context' (economy of words, minimalism, Zen, whatever you wish to call it), as well as conformist pressure and other assaults on Western ideas of 'the individual'.

But I don't know that I'd really go so far as to say that it's inferior to the American system or that the Japanese lack creativity. Creativity is expressed in a multitude of ways and is inimical to the human experience. Other cultures that could be labelled as 'dull' or uncreative are the Germans and the Swiss (and that's despite the low-context high-precision of the German language). If anything, I'd imagine a high-context, minimalist approach to communication would foster greater creativity and imagination as it leaves so much open to interpretation. The author of the article commented on the akward and sometimes detrimental results of miscommunication and the need to read-into things, but there are negatives to any issue. The positives on the other hand are quite impressive, but getting into 'why I love Japanese culture' would be going off-topic.

The educational background I come from might be considered on paper to be a quite classical and privileged one, i.e. private high school and our own Canadian version of 'IV League' post-secondary education. Despite that, I can't say anyone ever truly attempted to stoke the fires of creativity in my mind, I had to ask my own questions and this usually conflicted with the professor or teacher who had a syllabus he or she wanted to get through.

Unless you're dabbling in philosophy or something like that, simple factual regurgitation is the mainstay of most modern education systems. Throwing in a debate here and there might make a few people feel more empowered and vocal but it won't dramatically improve the content, most debates are still centered around fleshing out the original material or two sides of the same coin.

[Kirakira1232]

On the Japanese critical thinking comment, I meant that it takes critical thinking to discern all the subtle meanings in Japanese speech and etiquette, all the double entendres. I'd assume that part of the culture blocks out certain aspects of critical thinking for the Japanese... like the perservere mentality taught to children.
As in often, it certainly depends on who you associate with, or which type of context (formal or informal), but I guess I mean that Americans strong in critical thinking are known to sometimes be too expressive in their views, pushy even.
I was, but I was also aware of the other exams. And yes, everyone can stand to learn a few things, and I thank you for educating me. Most of my research on the Japanese school system is regrettably about 10 years out of date by now, forgive me.:relief:
As for the university entrance, I bet a lot of people shoot for the more prestigous schools because they don't want to end up as sararimen.

Critical thinking...really is not so much about etiquette. Its more along the lines of understanding and questioning established fact or theory instead of just rote learning facts. Its important in fields like science or humanities where there is a need to question and re-test theories or hypotheses.

The OP i think was critical of the Japanese education system because of its big emphasis on rote learning. Critical thinking calls more for understanding and questioning of the information rather then memorising it verbatim and regurgitating it in an exam (the so called "examination hell"). The idea behind critical thinking is that you always ask questions and dont accept facts at face value.

At least thats what I think it is.

[Emoni]

KiraKira I think that is a very good summary of a very complex idea. There is of course more to it, but that sums it up at the core.

I ran into this today... can't help but feel it fits in some abstract way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo-QIY7ys-k

[tokapi]

Even the owners of America want obedient citizens not a population has critical thinking. :bluush:

* Comedian George Carlin on " education in America "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMqJvhmD5Yg&feature=related

[Emoni]

One thing I never said was that it wasn't an issue in other countries as well. That includes America.

I simply see a difference in degree, and Japan (as well as other Asian nations) seems to have a much lower focus and emphasis on critical thinking than the United States, at least at a college level and a bit prior to that too.

[caster51]

I simply see a difference in degree, and Japan (as well as other Asian nations) seems to have a much lower focus and emphasis on critical thinking than the United States, at least at a college level and a bit prior to that too.
however, it ihas nothing to do with creatinity.
If there are desire and interest in that.., they would have that naturaly.
Japan is an otaku country. it is not means only anime nerd or hentai geek.
i think many various otakus made a creativity that they are interested in..

[AroundTheWorld]

Even the owners of America want obedient citizens not a population has critical thinking. :bluush:
* Comedian George Carlin on " education in America "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMqJvhmD5Yg&feature=related

R.I.P George Carlin. That man was never afraid to speak his mind... for better or for worst. :3

however, it ihas nothing to do with creatinity.
If there are desire and interest in that.., they would have that naturaly.
Japan is an otaku country. it is not means only anime nerd or hentai geek.
i think many various otakus made a creativity that they are interested in..

Exactly. Japanese do critical thinking, but moreso in their personal time, in personal interests. These same students might not do so well at school, because they're too busy with their personal interests.

[Emoni]

however, it ihas nothing to do with creatinity.
If there are desire and interest in that.., they would have that naturaly.
Japan is an otaku country. it is not means only anime nerd or hentai geek.
i think many various otakus made a creativity that they are interested in..

Huh? Didn't I say in my first post that maybe the problem with education isn't the focus on creativity but critical thinking, thereby stating they are different issues? Again, I don't think you quite understand what critical thinking as well as creativity are as concepts or what is being compared. I don't mean to insult you by this, but your posts are consistently in their "own world" talking about a subject we AREN'T talking about. Please, read more carefully.

AroundTheWorld read a lot into your post that I'm not actually seeing myself.

As for critical thinking, I think it is partly a mindset as well. I've learned to be more "critical" thanks to certain college teachers who didn't just have me read a book and write about it, but question who wrote it, why, compare and criticize what was in it to other readings and question the strength of their evidence and presentation. I have never seen in any Japanese class this being done in any manner. This is one example and while I do believe that it occurs in a few classes at least, I don't think it is naturally considered. The same goes with classes in Korea and China at colleges I have witnessed as well as students I have spoken with.

[caster51]

As for critical thinking, I think it is partly a mindset as well. I've learned to be more "critical" thanks to certain college teachers who didn't just have me read a book and write about it, but question who wrote it, why, compare and criticize what was in it to other readings and question the strength of their evidence and presentation. I have never seen in any Japanese class this being done in any manner. This is one example and while I do believe that it occurs in a few classes at least, I don't think it is naturally considered. The same goes with classes in Korea and China at colleges I have witnessed as well as students I have spoken with
is it just your experience?
it is so ridiculous.
because I learnt there like you said:okashii:
graduation thesis was spent for one year like such like method
even in elmentary school has like free research as a task during summer vacation. most time in summer vacation was spent.
after vacation these reserrch is discussed ...

now I knew how superiority emoni and their education were..

[Emoni]

is it just your experience?
it is so ridiculous.
because I learnt there like you said:okashii:
even in elmentary school has like that as free research as a task during summer vacation. most time in summer vacation was spent

Ummm... Huh? :souka:

[caster51]

Ummm... Huh?
you are so ridiculous....

As for critical thinking, I think it is partly a mindset as well. I've learned to be more "critical" thanks to certain college teachers who didn't just have me read a book and write about it, but question who wrote it, why, compare and criticize what was in it to other readings and question the strength of their evidence and presentation. I have never seen in any Japanese class this being done in any manner. This is one example and while I do believe that it occurs in a few classes at least, I don't think it is naturally considered. The same goes with classes in Korea and China at colleges I have witnessed as well as students I have spoken with

it is a common way in everywhere...
I think you need a critical thinking based on more knowledges about Japanese education at first
did you investigate it? if you didnt it is just your masturbation how you got superiority education.

of course, there is a ploblem in Japanese education

[Mars Man]

I am very certain that the process of critical thinking and thought, a matter beyond that of simply being creative, and the matter of actively teaching such and making application of such (by especially 1-12 grades) is in great lack in the Japanese school system. Again, this is a very certain conclusion. (although one may wish to argue just what degree of such would make 'enough,' in order to have a 'lack.')

Even at the university level, in many (notice, not most, even, here) cases, especially within the first two years of classes, we find not much more. Rote memory is largely the process by which much is presented...just remember it, and then pass the test. (and of course be in class, since that often counts too...as per the conveyor belt system of 1-12)

However, we should not attempt to compare between Japan and other social groups/national groups, I'd think, other than to take a position on what would more likely prove, over the long run, to be more beneficial over all in general balance and well-being of a social group's natural position.

Caster51 san, please do be careful so as to present your position without pointing fingers at the poster, per se. (you know what I mean)

[caster51]

mars man: ok

I need the certainty investigation at first that the Japanese education is the lack of critical thinking with not based on personal experience.

it needs total premise....

[Emoni]

you are so ridiculous....
it is a common way in everywhere...
I think you need a critical thinking based on more knowledges about Japanese education at first
did you investigate it? if you didnt it is just your masturbation how you got superiority education.
of course, there is a ploblem in Japanese education

Considering your rude, insulting, and accusatory behavior, I'm not sure why I, or other posters, continue to respond. Maybe it is just too late for me to rationally decide not to.

Have I investigated it? Yes, I believe I have stated that to some degree numerous times and I simply don't believe you are reading the thread. I've been in classes in Japan, China, and South Korea. These include classes from Elementary School, Junior High, High School, and University level where I was a volunteer, visitor, and student. I've had an interest in education and teaching for a long time as it is my career goal to be a college professor. I've paid very close attention to not just the content, but how it is taught, perceived and studied. Am I running a doctoral research project on Japanese education? No, I'm talking about a subject on JRef's internet forums. However, I have done previous research projects regarding Japanese education, mostly focused on education of the atomic bombings of Japan and university students.

This post isn't some joyful activity of masturbation as you are insultingly stating it to be. If that was the case, JRef wouldn't be a site I'd be looking up.

With that, I'm through with being insulted by you caster and your attempts to derail this thread. I was a fool for responding yet again and probably now as well.


NOW on to the actual topic at hand! The actual purpose of this thread.

In regards to rote memory and critical thinking, I do think there may be an issue of balance. By no means does rote memory not exist in American schooling and education. It's simply required sometimes. However, I do want to state that rote memory is often the first step to a deeper understanding of a subject, not the end. You may memorize math formulas, but those are based on a deeper theory that must be understood. You may memorize the first version of history and historical dates, but that is only the beginning and one often limited version of "so-called" history that must be analyzed and considered afterwards.
For a oversimplified example, of which I'm not expecting much of myself tonight, let me talk about bread.

When you first learn to cook pretty much you look in a cook book, grab the ingredients, and follow the instructions. If you want to become better, you have to start thinking about WHY you use certain ingredients, and compare and contrast to other bread recipes. Later you may find that one tastes better than another type of bread, part of it can be your opinion, but if you truly want to make good bread, to become a master of bread bake'n, then you must dig deep and question each aspect and every ingredient and the effect, even if the previous recipe was created by Wolfgang Puck and he is telling you he'd be insulted if you even CONSIDERED questioning his super bread.

^ It's late, and that is the sort of stuff that comes out. If anyone considers that crazy example masturbation as well, I don't recommend eating the bread.

[caster51]

Considering your rude, insulting, and accusatory behavior, I'm not sure why I, or other posters, continue to respond. Maybe it is just too late for me to rationally decide not to

I need your certainty investigation at first that the Japanese education is the lack of critical thinking with not based on personal experience.

it needs total premise or comparison....

[Emoni]

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquiry/spr95/davidson.html

^Here is a start. Once again, from Glenski and what I posted on the very first post of this thread.

[caster51]

You may memorize math formulas, but those are based on a deeper theory that must be understood. You may memorize the first version of history and historical dates, but that is only the beginning and one often limited version of "so-called" history that must be analyzed and considered afterwards.
For a oversimplified example, of which I'm not expecting much of myself tonight, let me talk about bread.

nop I was majoring in math. It is common. it is not only your education

When you first learn to cook pretty much you look in a cook book, grab the ingredients, and follow the instructions. If you want to become better, you have to start thinking about WHY you use certain ingredients, and compare and contrast to other bread recipes. Later you may find that one tastes better than another type of bread, part of it can be your opinion, but if you truly want to make good bread, to become a master of bread bake'n, then you must dig deep and question each aspect and every ingredient and the effect, even if the previous recipe was created by Wolfgang Puck and he is telling you he'd be insulted if you even CONSIDERED questioning his super bread.

it is a common way.
what is a difference
that is why I need your Assumption from total investigation because it might be a just your impression.

if there is not, it is rude

[caster51]

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/inquir.../davidson.html
only that? you belive this old one as same way?
so you dont have a critical thinking about that?
That is one of our problems that most Japanese students abroad first have to face up to. I know a lot of Japanese students saying, "It's so difficult for me to discuss it because I haven't ever thought of this kind of things"
:okashii::okashii:
Also, what is worse, our ability of analysis or thinking deeply is totally paralyzed because of Japanese social condition which is regarded as "peaceful society" by many people.... even Japanese educational system doesn't encourage us to have our own ideas Otsubo, 1993
there is a conclusion at first, then they were looking for useless reasons..
what a lame? it is like Waiwai article.
if they understood it, why dont they do that as cocrete methods?
even if japanese education is the lack of critical thinking method, it had nothing to do with creativity.
i know american university system well.
it is difficult to graduate in Usa though it is easy to enter the university.
on the other hand , I said japanese university is four years vacation..to enter is difficult because of entrance exam..
american students study a lot more than Japanese in Jpn unversity.
because It is necessary to withdraw from school if the grade is bad.
i think it is clear that students in Us has a purpose to study.
teacher is also criticized by students...because of competition principle
teachers are not evaluated in Japan even if he did a good teaching or not
The improvement of scholastic attainments is a problem of the consideration of the individual in Japan.
if I want to get a good grade like an american way, it is a just reflection of my love of learning.
the company or industory demand the personality more than grade in Uni.
many company ask what you did outside school during 4 years of uni...
They dont evaluate about grade..

I think that student's seriousness is also different if becoming a very important factor when the grade is a corporate adoption.
the education has been entrusted to teacher's obligation and
conscience...
the lack of the critical thinking is not a problem at all.
they have enough ability of critical thinking.
I think a basic system in uni. is wrong at first because there is no competioion..
many student who is dropped out will be increase.
it becomes a social problem.

[Mars Man]

My investigation, caster 51 san, is surely as certain as yours, yet I have come to a different conclusion than you; it seems. As best as I can tell, you are still positioning yourself as accepting that it is true that the majority of the process and procedure of the education system in Japan contains an adequate degree of critical thought delivery within itself.

Is it not that by doing so, you are simply reflecting a satisfaction with the system status quo? Being satisfied in and of itself will not necessarily produce the frame of mind required to test the system for potential improvement.

However, please do keep in mind that I, for one, am not here to persist in trying to convince you of better. I will, in the meantime, and in my own way, through my own channels, work (however so little result it may immediately lead to) so as to give a wake up call against the mediocracy and stagnacy of just going along with what has come before without testing it.

[Emoni]

"Loyalty to petrified opinion never broke a chain or freed a human soul -- and never will." Mark Twain

[Glenski]

i know american university system well.
it is difficult to graduate in Usa though it is easy to enter the university.You don't know American university well. It's not that hard to graduate.

teachers are not evaluated in Japan even if he did a good teaching or notYou don't even know your own country's system! What are all those evaluation forms at the end of the semester about? Student services comes in on last day of class, five minutes later, the survey is finished. I get a copy of the results a month later. Moreover, this type of thing is on the increase, even in JHS and senior high.

[Elizabeth]

If anything, I'd imagine a high-context, minimalist approach to communication would foster greater creativity and imagination as it leaves so much open to interpretation. The author of the article commented on the akward and sometimes detrimental results of miscommunication and the need to read-into things, but there are negatives to any issue. The positives on the other hand are quite impressive, but getting into 'why I love Japanese culture' would be going off-topic.

This life/work value change clash is also underway in Japan of course between a growing young corps of nonconformist, freedom loving individualists and a structured school/business society that is still too rigid to accomodate their potential.

But to their credit, even Japanese businesses recognize the old "company man" values of diligence, enthusiasm, a willingness to work hard, work as an end in itself and corporate loyalty etc are no long sufficient to meet the demands of global competition in a 21st Century economy driven by innovation and new ideas.

So the new kind of highly desired employees today are graduates with qualities to make them a 'knowledge' worker such as autonomy of character, ability to exercise independent thought/judgement/problem solving, initiative etc -- in Japanese this socially acceptable, nonthreatening strain of individualism is labeled "kosei." In contrast to the reckless selfishness of Western-style "kojin" (excessive focus on personal freedom and human rights) which, if left unchecked, could easily threaten not only loyalty to the firm but the entire bedrock of social order on which the county has been molded for fifty years.

The dilemma that exists for government, the Ministry of Education in particular, then, is how to introduce curricula designed to improve communication and analytical/critical thinking skills among students without damaging what is left of a societal fabric, of the traditional ways of living and thinking engineered by a conservative establishment.

[pipokun]

...
When you first learn to cook pretty much you look in a cook book, grab the ingredients, and follow the instructions. If you want to become better, you have to start thinking about WHY you use certain ingredients, and compare and contrast to other bread recipes.
...


I know what you mean in the above post, but it is also the reality that you need some interesting legalization such as the Cheeseburger bill in the country where you can see much more people with their critical mindset than in Japan.

I cannot judge if the lack of critical thinking in Japan really matters with few evidences such as the lack of debate in English or sleeping students as Glenski claimed. It is more plausible that Belgian kids called American kids stupid in the John Stossel's program.

*snip*
One way to solve the obesity is simple that you cook more at home, not easy ready-made frozen dishes. Avoiding bread does work, for you need something more to eat bread.

[Elizabeth]

I
I cannot judge if the lack of critical thinking in Japan really matters with few evidences such as the lack of debate in English or sleeping students as Glenski claimed. It is more plausible that Belgian kids called American kids stupid in the John Stossel's program.
*snip*
Whether anyone here can judge the need is irrelevant. Enabling students to develop their natural gifts, learn and think by themselves, make decisions independently, acquire ways to solve problems better, etc. clearly matters (or at least did) to the Ministry of Education. It not, why would they have introduced the so-called 'Sogo-tekina gakushu no jikan' (Period of Integrated Study) in 2002 with the goal of easing traditional fact-cramming teaching methods ?


"Content for all children to study in common is carefully selected, and each school is allowed to devise plans to give children enough time to think, to provide supplemental teaching individually, or to involve them in developing learning. It also substantiates the experiential and problem-solving approach to learning so that children can understand what they are learning with a feeling of reality. The aim is to enable children to learn basics and fundamentals, and to develop "Academic Ability", including natural gifts and faculties to find assignments, learn, and think by themselves, make decisions independently, take actions, and solve problems better. Contents of revisions in the new Courses of Study will be explained in detail below."


http://www.mext.go.jp/b_menu/hakusho/html/hpac200201/hpac200201_2_013.html

[pipokun]

...
It not, why would they have introduced the so-called 'Sogo-tekina gakushu no jikan' (Period of Integrated Study) in 2002 with the goal of easing traditional fact-cramming teaching methods ?


You showed us a good example that Japan has their own kaizen activity in education.
But ironically, the kaizen under the name of relaxed education has boosted more parents to choose private schools for better education.

[Glenski]

Whether anyone here can judge the need is irrelevant. Enabling students to develop their natural gifts, learn and think by themselves, make decisions independently, acquire ways to solve problems better, etc. clearly matters (or at least did) to the Ministry of Education. It not, why would they have introduced the so-called 'Sogo-tekina gakushu no jikan' (Period of Integrated Study) in 2002 with the goal of easing traditional fact-cramming teaching methods ?And six years later, what has changed?

[caster51]

Creativity...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity
Invention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention...

I think flexible thinking is more important:p
antway ,according to various aphorism of inventer, what we need is passion,enthusiasm...

Edison did not go to school? I like it

[gaijinalways]

I think flexible thinking is more important
antway ,according to various aphorism of inventer, what we need is passion,enthusiasm...

You need the passion to make it a reality. Great thinking alone doesn't change things, people need to act as well.

The other posters have been trying to point out to you that applying critical thought does mean being flexible and being willing to examine various arguments. Too often my students can't tell me why they do something (basically, they have never thought about it).

A recent story comes to mind. My student was asked"Which do you prefer, a Japanese breakfast or a Western breakfast?". He answered, "I prefer a Japanese breakfast" and added, when pressed, "..because I am Japanese!"

This basically doesn't answer the why part of the question. There could be some good reasons for why he may prefer a Japanese breakfast (health, cost, habit, what his mother usually makes, etc..), but trying to imply that because he is Japanese, he must prefer Japanese food is answering without deep thought.

Let's try another one from the realm of service.

A Japanese American comes to Japan. He speaks some Japanese, but his mindset is very American. He goes into a family styled chain restaurant, and sees on the menu that they have gratin and hamburgers. So, he calls the waiter over and orders a cheesburger (an item not on the menu). The waiter says "That will be very difficult as it is not on the menu." The customer tries to explan, you have hamburgers and you have cheese, what's difficult about it? Finally the manager is called over, the waiter explained about this problem with an 'impossible' order, and the manager also tells the customer, "I'm sorry we can't do it"

Okay says the customer, let me have a side order of gratin, and please put the cheese on the side, and give me a hamburger. The waiter and the manager breathe a sigh of relief.

The order comes, the customer scoops up the cheese on the side, slaps it on his hamburger, and eats it.

Still think critical thinking is not needed?

Have you heard the expression 'think outside the box'? The waiter and the manager couldn't do it, couldn't bring an item not on the menu. The manual doesn't provide for that situation. In an American restaurant that would be 'a no brainer.' They'd tell you, "Okay, we'll put the cheese on it, but we have to charge you extra for the cheese."

[caster51]

A recent story comes to mind. My student was asked"Which do you prefer, a Japanese breakfast or a Western breakfast?". He answered, "I prefer a Japanese breakfast" and added, when pressed, "..because I am Japanese!

iy means it is accustomed to eat.

I ask a qustion to my kid" why do you hate cucumber"
cucumber is good for health.
my kids said " I hate it. there is no reason... this tast is bad for me"
why do you choose this guy as a husboud?
why dont you chose other guy?
i think there are many reasons depened on her though both guys have a good points
which do you like "apple or banana"?
I think it is the same even if either is basically chosen because future is unknown.
You only have to return when wrong as soon as possible.

sometime we dont need a reason. just do it if you made a choice.

[anomouse]

The cheese thing has nothing to do with critical thinking.

You can do one thing in one country, doesn't make it right in another.
It simply is not the way things are done.
Different cultural/social norms in different countries.
Just accept them as they are.
When you are in another country, do not demand another person to think and act like you do, just try to think outside of your own cultural box.

[Emoni]

anomouse

I have to say I have seen absurdity to the point of extreme that the above poster showed with the "Cheese" example. I've dealt with it in both America and Japan, and it is simply the situation and degree that differs. My God, it was a nightmare to simply pay a phone bill after I had canceled my service as well as cancel internet service in Japan due to the "inability to think outside the box" strict rule set and they should be thankful they got paid still!

You can claim "cultural differences" and "cultural acceptance" but there is a degree of thinking beyond strict rules that are often blindly accepted. The "Cheese" example could just as well happen in, for example, China. It is not limited to Japan. It is not limited to any country.

While very abstract, the Cheese example DOES show aspects of critical thinking skill. Here's the hint, think of the way the man ordering handled the situation over all compared to the restaurant.

[Mars Man]

I would have to say here, that we'd have a very difficult time providing argumentation for the proposition that the 'cheeseburger' example is inaccurate. There is a matter which is even above and beyond cultural/social sub-groups and major groups, and that is the universal set. Logic and critical thought processes are universally rooted to the far largest degree thus they hold regardless of social/cultural breakdown.

This thread does focus on the education system here in Japan, and the proposition for the lack of critical thinking being taught (and/or applied) in it--although it is true that such can be learned outside the formal education system (as I have pointed to a number of times in a number of ways) as caster51 has finally also shown acceptance of. Let's keep it to the formal, public (and to a degree private) educational system, please.

[tokapi]

"inability to think outside the box" strict rule set






1 Taiwanese acquaintance worked for a Japanese bank subsidiary in Taipei,she too once said to me that they just don't ever bent the rules ( never ! ).

We both debated whether it's corporate culture or education-related.

[anomouse]

It has nothing to do with critical thinking.
It's their prerogative not to take orders not on the menu.
Japanese restaurants ensure that customers orders are taken correctly, and I understand that they don't want unnecessary complexity.
Now back on topic!

[pipokun]

Mallory is famously said to have replied to the question "why do you want to climb Mt. Everest?" with the retort: "because it is there", which has been called "the most famous four words in mountaineering".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mallory

"Which do you prefer, a Japanese breakfast or a Western breakfast?". He answered, "I prefer a Japanese breakfast" and added, when pressed, "..because I am Japanese!"

The Mallory's words does sound more poetic than the eikaiwa student of gaijinalways, but the logic itself in both of them sounds similar to me. At least, they didn't necessarily answer the questions.

About the burger stuff, it might all the same after you digest hamburger and cheese from gratin, but the restaurant just though the quality of cheese burger was different from the simple-minded person like your friend thought.

Still think critical thinking is not needed?
Just use your great critical mindset to find a person, if any, who claims it here or in your daily life.

[Glenski]

Despite a moderator's pleas to stay on topic, I see the last 3 posts are not. Time to shut down this thread, I think.

Whaddaya think, mods? This thread is going nowhere.

[gaijinalways]

my kids said " I hate it. there is no reason... this tast is bad for me"

That is a reason, he doesn't like the taste (just as I don't like the taste and smell of natto, healthy as it is).

Let's keep it to the formal, public (and to a degree private) educational system, please.

But Mars man, this is reflection of the education here, which continues after one joins a company. My student is a Japanese university student at a private university.

It's interesting though to see situational ethics applied here constantly, hence why often in Japan there are no absolute truths nor absolute good/bad. There is a logic system that is regularly used here, just not a Western logic system. You could say it is part Bushido, part Confucianism IMO.

It has nothing to do with critical thinking.
It's their prerogative not to take orders not on the menu.
Japanese restaurants ensure that customers orders are taken correctly, and I understand that they don't want unnecessary complexity.
Now back on topic!

But I would say it does. I don't think it was that complex of an order, adding cheese, which they already had to a hamburger.

Another example comes to mind in a pasta restaurant, Japanese style. I was ordering a Carbonara, which they like to put a raw egg on 'at that restaurant'. I had just recently recovered from being sick from a spoiled raw egg that was used in another restaurant. My wife asked them not to use it. They refused, saying I could push it the side. Think about it, by not using the egg, they save money (I didn't ask for a discount), yet they refused to do it. Plus they save the time cracking the egg open at the end.

I suppose you could chalk it up to 'cultural' logic, but this also doesn't sound like a 'winner' for customer service.

At least, they didn't necessarily answer the questions.

But Mallory did answer the question. For a mountaineer, that would be an answer. Why else climb mountains unless you are;

-paid to do so
-for honor of your nation
- to rescue someone
-because you can't resist a challenge

You can see where a Japanese eating a Japanese breakfast doesn't quite fit in those first three categories nor would it be much of a challenge.

Now a little more back on topic, why isn't this taught here in the schools? It seems like Japan often has focused on keeping harmony and a public that follows rather than leads. Arguments are often emotional ones here, not logical ones. It is more difficult to introduce logical arguments to a society that on the face of it doesn't use them. You don't see a lot of 'Question Authority' bumper stickers here. You do see a lot of strange English language messages on Tshirts, but that would be another thread.


Thanx for the links Glenski, I read all of those this afternoon. interesting reading.

[Mars Man]

Some worthwhile points made there, and, as far as I can reason, valid enough. That said, it is nevertheless true that this thread was to have had a more narrow scope--namely that of whether critical thinking was a root of any percieved 'lacking' in the Japanese formal education system as opposed to creative thinking. ①

I apologize if any see the structured polemical style I demand, a cramping of style; yet hope that there will be learning, even, in that. We have to argue in line with the theme, and we have to present within those bounds. I will leave this thread open yet, in hopes that it work itself out correctly here. Please, everybody, let's keep it on-topic (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37881) from now on.

In the school system, the pressure to instill within the very soul of the students (and I'm talking about 1-12 here, especially) the acceptance that authority is correct, is not to be challenged, is itself a deterrent to critical thinking process. Is it possible that this helps set the stages for a mental ceiling on how far polemical thinking can go?

I presently reason that it is. Critical thinking will help reach a more universal equilibrium on the philosophically nuanced understandings of benefit for the whole, above and beyond 'old world thinking.' To get the ball rolling, it must be presentable in the Japanese public education system. (and of course, again, even outside of it, actually)




① While it is true, gaijinalways san, that it is largely a reflection of the formal education system that we see in the social operation at large, it is clearly going beyond the bounds of the theme of the thread--except to provide a working description of critical thought process. (so enough is enough there, and arguing on that further goes off-topic)

[Emoni]

A few sources that I found with a simple search recently on yahoo. (Oddly enough, THIS THREAD is on the first page of a yahoo search under critical thinking Japan)

http://www.dyske.com/index.php?view_id=814

http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/2008/Rear.html

Both brush over a bit of the "controversial/anti-societal norm" aspects of critical thinking which I think could have a large connection why critical thinking in general is at opposition with a more conformist based educational system/society. Of course, speaking in generalizations here and nothing applies to everything.

[Glenski]

I have not read all of the first link, but it is amazing to see how the writer (presumably a Japanese) slams an EFL university instructor (whom I know a little) for writing an article on critical thinking in Japan. The amazing part is, he slams the guy for what he perceives are negative opinions of Japanese's critical thinking and for how he made his questionairre, yet the instructor actually says this (emphasis is mine):

"Asian learners of English are often characterized by constructs which claim that they lack an individual voice and critical thinking skills. In addition, it is said that unlike their Western counterparts, because of collectivist and hierarchical tendencies, they hesitate to express adversarial views. These behavioural patterns are claimed to be reflected in the rhetorical styles of Japanese learners when writing in English. Contrary to these claims, in an attitude survey of 70 Japanese undergraduates, the present study found little hesitation to voice opinions counter to authority figures. Moreover, participants possessed a firm grasp of elements of critical thinking. These results suggest that traditional constructs describing Asian students may no longer be accurate. "

Weird.

[gaijinalways]

There is no reason why we must shy away from teaching anything. The problem I see here is that he sees, as most Westerners do, cultural progression to be linear and singular. I am afraid that he is suggesting Japanese students to “move away” from the traditional Eastern way of thinking, which would be quite unfortunate. It is to anyone’s advantage to acquire different ways of thinking. What would be beneficial for Japanese students is to encourage them to employ multiple styles of thinking, not to see one to be superior to the others, and not to be so blindly attached to one.

This is a quote taken from the first link above on this page. I certainly think it would be beneficial, and I'M sure I and other posters don't mean to suggest that Japanese should abandon various other types of decision making, but rather adopt critical thinking as well as an alternative decion making process.
Options are good, aren't they caster?

Asian learners of English are often characterized by constructs which claim that they lack an individual voice and critical thinking skills. In addition, it is said that unlike their Western counterparts, because of collectivist and hierarchical tendencies, they hesitate to express adversarial views. These behavioural patterns are claimed to be reflected in the rhetorical styles of Japanese learners when writing in English. Contrary to these claims, in an attitude survey of 70 Japanese undergraduates, the present study found little hesitation to voice opinions counter to authority figures. Moreover, participants possessed a firm grasp of elements of critical thinking. These results suggest that traditional constructs describing Asian students may no longer be accurate. "

Glenski, I would say that things have not changed that much, though it is true that some young people are less afraid to voice their opinions, yet they often cannot justify their opinions as they have had little practice in doing so. In addition some still merely 'parrot' arguments that others have used, often showing little understanding of the nuances of the argument or the consequences of taking their suggested or recommended action(s).

http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/2008/Rear.html

If employees possess the ability to judge the credibility of statements, to identify assumptions and biases, and to come to independent conclusions, what is to stop them applying these skills with regard to the ideas and policies of their superiors? Critical thinking has been defined as 'reasonable and reflective thinking that is focused on deciding what to believe or do' (Ennis 1985: 28), implying an emancipatory quality to the concept, a freeing of people's minds from a slavish acceptance of conventional beliefs.

This seems to be a major concern in Japan, rocking the boat. In addition, the idea of a 'friendly debate/discussion' in Japan is often not considered possible.

The general education policy is often opposed to this, with cramming for exams the norm, and little thought given to why people do things, beyond that's the way they have been done in the past (what I would term forcefully married to tradition). Even the learning of the Japanese written system requires strong memorization skills, and this skill is often repeated where parroted statements are mistook for real acquisition.

http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:Hwj9hu5kQkgJ:www.iasce.net/Conference2004/23June/Davidson/GospelCTSingleSpace.doc+critical+thinking+in+japan ese&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20

Another link from Davidson.

Probably disagreements are most threatening among students in Japan because friendship is very highly valued, perhaps above everything else, even romantic love. This is shown by the fact that if you ask students to write about something that they consider their "treasure," they will often write about their friends. My own students often express sentiments like "you should always believe your friends." In fact, from my point of view, they exalt friendship to a dangerous degree, and I find myself challenging them sometimes on this point as a teacher.

Sound familiar?

[Emoni]

It is quite a bit to read, and I haven't read every word either yet.

One thing that is mentioned is the opposition to general opinion and accepted methods and the difficulty that that students face if they go against the "norm." I know that even in America, even if you make a good case and write a brilliant paper I have seen teachers mark a student down simply for the reason they don't agree. Doesn't happen too often, but I've seen it.

Clearly having that sort of reaction doesn't foster critical thinking and a questioning mindset. Especially in a hierarchical society and education system that is dependent on filling in those entrance exam tests "correctly." Don't give the right answer by some else's generally accepted opinion? BZZZT -10 points.

Now, one thing I have seen which I'm sure is most likely connected in some part to academic freedom and critical evaluation and thought is that during my two years abroad, the universities I was at in Japan both had strict policies on "Academic Harassment." I.E. a teacher abusing their power. While the rules were clearly vague.

http://www.waseda.jp/stop/hpc/guideline_e.html#sent2

"Academic Harassment: This type of harassment signifies academically inappropriate remarks/behavior and guidance by a faculty member or an individual of authority within the University. Whether or not such statements/actions are intentional, they are considered harassment when taking advantage of or deviating from authoritative responsibilities and markedly interfering with or damaging a student's motivation for study and research."

As stated in the link you provided Glenski, the idea of critical thinking and questioning material, especially when it comes to generally accepted views, can be seen as quite radical as well as adversarial. Throw in a social system like Japan where hierarchy is of critical importance and it is no wonder that you would have at least some aversion by students to challenge and question those above them. I do see slow movement towards more critical thinking focused education, especially at universities like Waseda which are more internationally focused and open, but it will be a long time coming I believe. I believe that there are numerous factors, such as this one I have stated, that hamper the acceptance and consideration of critical thinking methods.

I'm curious, as you have said you are an educator, since the mindset and possible source of resistance to critical thinking might be as well as the current status, what do YOU feel would make critical thinking more accepted in Japanese education? I haven't thought much about this aspect of critical thinking methods in Japan, but my first impression is that it would have to take place from a top-down approach due to the social systems in place. For example, not only the declaration by MEXT but enforcement and active programs to promote it.

[pipokun]

Mars Man, but what about the reality of what you call, the benefit for the whole society?
Better public education for children just because the parent(s) lives in a wealthy property tax areas, metal-detector at school, or else.

I don't intend to bush education in other countries, but every country has its own problems.
Critical thinking does not always lead to a right answer, the good example must be the relaxed education deteriorating basic public education here, so another kaizen is planned. Of course, the activity itself does not end.

To gaijinalways,
Glenski, I would say that things have not changed that much, though it is true that some young people are less afraid to voice their opinions, yet they often cannot justify their opinions as they have had little practice in doing so. In addition some still merely 'parrot' arguments that others have used, often showing little understanding of the nuances of the argument or the consequences of taking their suggested or recommended action(s).

The parrot argument, or the bring_here_the_source attitude esp., in 2ch, is better than generalization of your personal experiences with your students. At least, you cannot debate without evidences/data.

*snip
About the nuances and other stuffs, many thanks in advance for your generosity/understanding that I am fully aware of my bad language skill.
Needless to say, I am really pleased to meet somebody with great critical mindset and the Japanese skill and debate something here in the Japanese section here. Hope you will be the first one.

[Mars Man]

When I had pointed to the 'benefit of the whole,' pipokun san, I had been applying it on the 'international' level. (set by the word 'universal')

Here in Japan, I reason that if critical thinking were applied (especially) and taught in the education system more and more, an eventual point of a well balanced and empirically supported understanding of what is beneficial for the whole (universal) will be more readily obtainable.

Regardless of other problems elsewhere, we are focusing on the Japanese education system alone here, therefore other systems should be of no concern to our discussion.

Critical thinking will tend to lead us to a stronger appreciation that not only is 'right' relative in nature, but that it is most evidently, much broader in nature than 'old world models' have more commonly settled for.

Among the first suppliment (required) courses by the Job Hunting Department at our college, there will be attention given to 'this is the way it is done' (how to knock on the door, how to enter the room, wait to be invited to have a seat, etc.). In our Major Seminar classes, we are unspokenly assumed to be backing up that which is taught there.

Upon asking first semester second year students (since my seminar is in the jr. college department) to explain away, for example, the 'necessity' for a certain, otherwise casual behavior pattern (say, how to hand a document to a superior) they are at a total loss. This, I tend to reason, is due to a lack of critical skills rather than any lack of creativity--since questions which draw on imagination are usually rather robust.

Again, as I had mentioned earlier, and as been brought out again above, is this not due to a mental ceiling having been set on how far polemical thinking can go?

[Emoni]

No method of education is the perfect way and method towards an ultimate "rightness." That is one of the major flaws of teaching without consideration of critical thinking and instead using a one subject, one way, one answer mindset. It isn't about "right" as much as it is finding MORE answers and considering other options through more articulate evaluation methods.

I don't see this as an issue of the West pushing it's views on the East. Keep in mind critical thinking is not everywhere in the United States either. It mostly exists at the University level and begins around high school, but before that, I'd say there is a lot of similarities to the ideology behind which education is taught prior to high school in the "West" and "East." Because up to that point, you are usually telling children to follow rules and do things a certain way, rather than to question the rules and try things a new way and think hard about the results. The later is much more difficult and time consuming and often creates "trouble" in some form or another.

That's why I stated that most likely you'll have to start at the University level if critical thinking is to be applied in Japan. While I believe critical thinking is a method of education/thinking that is applicable far beyond formal education, it is most likely in an isolated environment that it would most be accepted at first.

[Glenski]

gaijinalways,
Good point, and I would like to echo those sentiments. Stapleton's article/abstract talked about his results showing that students are more willing than people perceive to voice their own opinions. While that may be true, I agree with you in the respect that they may not be able to support those opinions, and that is where critical thinking comes in, whether they justify themselves in English or Japanese.

It mostly exists at the University level and begins around high school, but before that, I'd say there is a lot of similarities to the ideology behind which education is taught prior to high school in the "West" and "East." Because up to that point, you are usually telling children to follow rules and do things a certain way, rather than to question the rules and try things a new way and think hard about the results. The later is much more difficult and time consuming and often creates "trouble" in some form or another.
That's why I stated that most likely you'll have to start at the University level if critical thinking is to be applied in Japan. While I believe critical thinking is a method of education/thinking that is applicable far beyond formal education, it is most likely in an isolated environment that it would most be accepted at first.
Get 'em early! The earlier, the better. You can occasionally see NHK programs about K-12 school programs where a keen Japanese teacher is breaking ground to teach critical thinking, usually in a science course. Get 'em while they are young, and the motivation and energy will be better when they have to apply CT in university.

[caster51]

you are usually telling children to follow rules and do things a certain way, rather than to question the rules and try things a new way and think hard about the results. The later is much more difficult and time consuming and often creates "trouble" in some form or another.
at first. rule is a rule.
The problem is "how do you think about it by break through"..
for example, there are 9 points like this.
then , how can you write a one-stroke sketch through every points by four straight lines ...
if you cant solve this within 5 min., I would say you dont have a critical thought?:p
The child also understands what is important as a basic thought

[caster51]

Here is another Example.
http://www.icoffice.co.jp/zukan/shape/tagi10.jpg

do you see only one side.
most ppl konw there are two drawing...
However, the other disappears if persisting in one view.
debito's veiw is something like that..It might be a one-sided critical thinking.
I see alot here .because they like to insist own critical thinking.?

I think these thought is more important than critical thinking.
it is natural teacher should teach these as a concrete method

[Emoni]

gaijinalways,

Get 'em early! The earlier, the better. You can occasionally see NHK programs about K-12 school programs where a keen Japanese teacher is breaking ground to teach critical thinking, usually in a science course. Get 'em while they are young, and the motivation and energy will be better when they have to apply CT in university.

Oh I agree, getting critical thinking taught early would be good. I just am not sure that it would be the fastest way to "get the message out" so to say. Then again, of course a kid who learns such a view will be able to apply it during a longer period and that would be the most beneficial. However, the mention of it being taught in a science course at a young age I can see being a good avenue like you mentioned in the specials.

[Mars Man]

What you have provided in your first example, caster51 is what I would say is a good 'problem solving skill' exerciser. To be able to work on such, analytical process is needed for sure, and to that degree, it requires critical thinking.

What is needed in the school system here would be not only that, but even more. The area of critical thought process which I'd say is lacking more so, is not that of the more specifically, problem solving process (because there, a problem is presented or assumed) but rather in the testing for a problem process. Here, there would be no 'problem' first presented. Here, where no problem may be readily seen or recognized, a testing is applied to isolate any possible or likely problem. (after that, the problem solving portion of critical thinking takes over)

The second example, is actually not a matter of critical thinking in itself. It is a matter of association and empirical knowledge on hand. Such association tests are always interesting. What the Japanese education system needs to work on applying and teaching more, is surely the 'testing for problems' portion.

[gaijinalways]

Caster,

Thanks for supplying an example, though I assume the link worked at one time (was that the solution?). I have heard of this problem, so I can imagine this without the link.

As mars man said, the second example is not using critical thinking. Actually, this is more of an example used to test visualisation skills. It's a common example used in psychology and art classes.

I do agree with mars man that the process is very important, much more so than the end results, which in some cases can be found using some electronic aid and/or by doing research, or discussing the matter with others who are more knowledgeable about the subject matter than the seeker. But when considering using others or electronic aids, we need to know what questions to ask as often the person or aid helping us might not be intelligent enough to figure out what we're trying to find out.

pipokun posted Critical thinking does not always lead to a right answer, the good example must be the relaxed education deteriorating basic public education here, so another kaizen is planned. Of course, the activity itself does not end.

Very true, but it is a better answer than giving up and saying "Shoganai":okashii:! Critical thinking will not always get you the right answer. As for most things in life, there is no one 'right' answer just as there is no one right investment strategy nor teaching method.

B]pipokun posted [/B]Needless to say, I am really pleased to meet somebody with great critical mindset and the Japanese skill and debate something here in the Japanese section here. Hope you will be the first one.

I'm sorry, you might be waiting a long time, like our next lives. My Japanese skills are poor, and I'm lazy to do much about them. Writing and reading at a high level are a long way off, especialy for doing any kind of discussion. But one can always hope..:-)

Emoni posted No method of education is the perfect way and method towards an ultimate "rightness." That is one of the major flaws of teaching without consideration of critical thinking and instead using a one subject, one way, one answer mindset. It isn't about "right" as much as it is finding MORE answers and considering other options through more articulate evaluation methods.

Very well put, I whole heartedly agree.

Emoni posted I don't see this as an issue of the West pushing it's views on the East. Keep in mind critical thinking is not everywhere in the United States either. It mostly exists at the University level and begins around high school, but before that, I'd say there is a lot of similarities to the ideology behind which education is taught prior to high school in the "West" and "East." Because up to that point, you are usually telling children to follow rules and do things a certain way, rather than to question the rules and try things a new way and think hard about the results. The later is much more difficult and time consuming and often creates "trouble" in some form or another.

I agree, and certainly we can also use consensus building for some decision making in the West, and we do.

I would say though that this trouble is well worth it, and having kids that question not to be obstinate, but because they're wondering, "Why do we do it this way?". A lot of the educational process can be questioned in that way. We have schools for gifted children, but we don't reach all those people. The next Warren Buffet or Bill Gates may be out there, some of the next generation of great visionaries just may need an extra push to get to that level.

[pipokun]

...
Get 'em early! The earlier, the better. You can occasionally see NHK programs about K-12 school programs where a keen Japanese teacher is breaking ground to teach critical thinking, usually in a science course. Get 'em while they are young, and the motivation and energy will be better when they have to apply CT in university.

Your benchmarking to judge the critical thinking is Nobel or other science/math-related prizes/awards, right?
But the data I posted here is not what you think. Not that good, but not that bad.

I don't think the prizes explain everything, but I am just playing your game in the field as you posted.

[Glenski]

Your benchmarking to judge the critical thinking is Nobel or other science/math-related prizes/awards, right?It's one, yes. It's not the only one. I've provided a link or two that support the latter.

Optical illusions like caster's are pointless.


But the data I posted here is not what you think. Not that good, but not that bad.The thread is long, pipokun. What "data"?

Emoni wrote:
Oh I agree, getting critical thinking taught early would be good. I just am not sure that it would be the fastest way to "get the message out" so to say.Why? Do you think waiting until students are 18 or 19 years old and practically set in their ways is a better age?

[Emoni]

Why? Do you think waiting until students are 18 or 19 years old and practically set in their ways is a better age?

What I mean to say, is that in order for critical thinking to be adopted as a viable method of observation and analysis, I believe it first has to be accepted and prominent in higher education before it to be considered for lower education due to the hierarchical tendencies of Japan.

I'm absolutely not against starting young and earlier, but I don't even see it taught much (if at all sometimes) to school kids in the US... even when I totally agree that they should be taught it earlier on.

[Revenant]

I don't see why young kids can't be started on critical thinking, and they're more malleable, they aren't used to the current system, so they to me would seem the best candidates for learning critical thinking.

Science would probably be the best area for critical thinking, so if students were given some proven facts, and asked how those facts could fit together, then you'd have the beginning of critical thinking.

I also believe in debate, and children who learn how to debate and seperate themselves from their feelings while discussing a topic would also learn better how to take in facts from an opposing side (and in life, facts often come in from the opposing side). A lot of people have learned to even enjoy exploring differences of opinion, but it all depends on the emotional setting of the debate, which is also why I'd recommend some classes in emotional development and a bit of rudimentary neuroscience (to dispel the belief that a lot of children hold, that since they weren't praised for something, they must not be smart enough for it, when a lot of intelligence and skills come about just by plain old effort).

[pipokun]

...
The thread is long, pipokun. What "data"?
...

Refer to #7, please.

[gaijinalways]

The attachment shows how the Japanese loves something practical/unpractical.

World Skills Competition
Patent
Paper, not toilet ones, but scientific ones
Nobel Prize
Math-related prizes
Ig Nobel Prize!

Patents- Yes thanks to this guy Shunpei Yamazaki, with some 80% or more of his patents related to computer display technology, he was the 1# holder of patents in the US.

Diversity of inventions, uh, not really.
He has also been criticized by another prolific inventor of inventing things that are not terribly useful.

http://www.impactlab.com/2006/02/26/top-us-patent-holder-is-legendary-japanese-inventor-shunpei-yamazaki/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunpei_Yamazaki

Papers - The Japanese ranked 2nd, though about 1/3 of the US total. England with half the population of Japan was third, though they had more top ranking papers than either the US or Japan.

http://scientific.thomsonreuters.com/news/newsletter/2007-06/8392239/

World Skills competition

Japan won in 2007 for Confectionery/Pastry??? Basically, the organization that runs this contest every 2 years is a NGO trying to promote vocational education and training. Japan doesn't seem to rank as one of the better countries to do that, as all of the recent lawsuits involving trainees has been related to that they have gotten very little training or education.

Will add more, got to run some errands.

[Emoni]

I strongly agree that science would be the best sort of class to get kids interested in critical thinking. One of the areas where I see a great need is history as well, but that is the most sensitive subject when it comes to the angle that the education department and nationalists in the government like to push. That goes for almost every country there.

I also think that your point about adding a good deal of debate would be a wonderful idea in regards to critical thinking. There is a lot of critical thinking skill required in formulating a strong argument for one side, and the benefit on the side being separating personal ego with the issue is something I see as very important as well. I can't count how many study abroad students from certain countries (China being one of the top) attaching every bit of their identity with any sort of critique or comment given.

Debate and Science seem to be the best way to introduce critical thinking mentioned so far.

[theAlphaDuck]

in my PERSONAL opinion
the subject in which little ones learn the art of critical thinking and judging that which is before them,
i.e. not just accepting that which is put in front of you...
is the subject of HISTORY
could this be the (quote) "Shamefull" history of Japan in WW2 (Yes ive mentioned that DIRTY word because i do BELIEVE it is relevant to the topic)
and the will of the Japanese GOV. to whitewash the bad events (i.e 731 ect.)have anything to do with a lack of critical thinking?
I.E. the kids are taught how it went down and told not to question what they are told but mearly to accept it as truth?
just for balance and so that i don't get judged a racist...
England did plenty of bad **** in it's past...
we invented carpet bombing, concentration camps and the internet....
the ALPHA Duck

[Mars Man]

Other stuff put aside (and thanks for editing that for me), I believe you are actually talking about the application of critical thinking, rather than the 'learning' of critical thinking.

Yes, I would tend to agree that in the subject of history, the application of critical thinking is a necessary thing. However, in order to apply critical thinking, it has to be acquired/learned, and in the Japanese education system that would better be done firstly through, or in tandem with, the pure sciences, then applied to (the philosophy of) history later.

[theAlphaDuck]

hmmm i'm afraid i really do have to disagree there mr mars san

science is NOT the place to learn critical thinking at all...
science in its nature is about fact...
is about understanding the world around you..

if your science teacher tells you
"two body's will be attracted to each other....this is what we call gravity"
you cant really critisize that...or deny it....

its a fact...

it's not open to interpritation in ANY way.
the only subjects that are open to critical thinking are the subjects which contain a SUBJECTIVE element...yet rely on a base line objective element
i.e. HISTORY, R.E., ART HISTORY, ECT.

one learns by doing...
it's like riding a bike....
you don't learn the theory and then do the practical, you just get on the bike and see where it takes you...

Quack Quack... the Alpha Duck hath spoken

[Revenant]

Well, there are a few different theories within certain realms of science, so science isn't just about facts, it involves looking at facts and trying to think carefully about what theories those facts might imply, and which theory best fits the facts. A simple example however doesn't come to mind though.

[gaijinalways]

pipokun posted Math-related prizes

Back to pipokun's list as evidence that the Japanese show critical thinking;

What kind? As in, winning math contests or testing high in ability to use math? If so, these don't show critical thinking, rather good skills in using what has already been learned.

[Kirakira1232]

hmmm i'm afraid i really do have to disagree there mr mars san
science is NOT the place to learn critical thinking at all...
science in its nature is about fact...
is about understanding the world around you..
if your science teacher tells you
"two body's will be attracted to each other....this is what we call gravity"
you cant really critisize that...or deny it....
its a fact...
it's not open to interpritation in ANY way.
the only subjects that are open to critical thinking are the subjects which contain a SUBJECTIVE element...yet rely on a base line objective element
i.e. HISTORY, R.E., ART HISTORY, ECT.
one learns by doing...
it's like riding a bike....
you don't learn the theory and then do the practical, you just get on the bike and see where it takes you...
Quack Quack... the Alpha Duck hath spoken

Science doesnt necessarily take things as "fact". Einsteins Theory of relativity to this day remains as a "theory" not a fact. Same with Darwin's "Theory" of evolution. These arent "facts" these theories may be taken as the yardstick in science but still people CAN in fact challenge them so long as they have the research to back up their claims. What does this require? Critical thinking. The only reason these theories have stood the test of time is that many scientists have been unable to disprove these theories.

The point of a lot of research is to test and re-test hypthoses or theories to see if they can still "hold water" so to speak. It requires an objective look at existing theories or hypotheses.

[theAlphaDuck]

Science is great...for developing logic and problem solving skills,
this is because it is an objective subject...i.e. based on Facts.

(yes the theory of Relativity is a fact...it states in laymans terms that what you see is not necessarily the case everywhere and is in fact RELATIVE to your own situation.
evolution is also a fact...facts are things that can be proved...and HAVE been proved)

subjects that inspire creative thinking are....the purely subjective subjects, art ect.
critical thinking is about OPINIONS.... OPINIONS on things that are in the very least quasi-factual.
a subjective take on an objective thing...
example

"the gov. is planning to give free carrots to racoons in order to bolster the weakening economy of the magical forrest, (FACT, objective)... i think thats a really good thing (OPINION, subjective) because last time the racoons were in financial trouble they stole lots of stuff by paying for goods and services with fake currency that turned out to be made of leaves (FACT, objective)"

this is BEST in the subject of history...
Peace and gravy

[Emoni]

KiraKira's explanation was quite well, and I am going to have to side with him. Science isn't based on facts, it is based on theories, hypothesis, and experimentation. Mathematical proof assists theories, but one frustrating problem is that everyone thinks that a theory is some how "not good enough" when in fact it is is one of the highest levels a scientific idea can reach. Theory = EXTREMELY strong. Yet, as KiraKira also stated, critical thinking and such allows the challenging of this, and that challenging (in the style of critical thinking) is strongly encouraged as it promotes further knowledge.

However, I won't disagree that critical thinking is absolutely MANDATORY in regards to historical study.

[Tsuyoiko]

critical thinking is about OPINIONS.... OPINIONS on things that are in the very least quasi-factual.
a subjective take on an objective thing...

I think you're confused about the meaning of the term 'critical thinking'. Here's a good definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

[Glenski]

Science isn't based on facts, it is based on theories, hypothesis, and experimentation.
Ahem. Just what do you think experimentation generates? Whimsy? It generates facts or highly regarded theorems, on top of what you wrote. Same with hypotheses: they are based largely on facts.

[theAlphaDuck]

yes i know what critical thinking is

and would argue thus:

Science is universal....it is the same subject the world over.

History is not...it is about the point of view...

liberator/occupier
freedom fighter/terrorist

it is this subjective element in history and current affairs that really flexes ones critical thinking, evaluation, and argument skills.

as science is the SAME the world over.... this can NOT be responsible for a lack of critical thinking...

HISTORY is where it's at...
and i think that it comes as no suprise that (from what iv'e heard)
in japan history is taught in the form of a Doctrine that is not to be questioned and a lack of critical thinking...

[caster51]

in japan history is taught in the form of a Doctrine that is not to be questioned and a lack of critical thinking...

anyway, I have so much critical thinking about that.
there are so many history otakus
German can not say anything.. it mean a lack of critical thinking?

[Glenski]

in an English classroom debate is encouraged...and the more heated the better!
is it the same in the Japanese classroom?
or do they sit down, be quiet and learn?
teacher knows best so don't question what he says?
i honestly don't know because i'm not Japanese...
but it would be interesting to find out.
Debate in Japan is like bowling. One person does his thing (speaks) while the others sit quietly and listen. Then, the next person takes over. Most of the time, debate in Japan is not point vs. counterpoint as you might expect from western standpoints.

Some rare classrooms will have lively debates, but most of the time, Japanese people don't know how to support their arguments/points like westerners do. In a classroom, unless there is a reason for tremendously close rapport, students feel very shy about such practices, especially refuting someone's argument. I've tried this in HS, where the kids have spent years together in the same homeroom, and it doesn't work. The kids really have to be trained hard to break their ingrained habits and feelings. Adults aren't much different.

[Emoni]

The only sense of "debate" I've witnessed or been part of is during a class in Japan which was an international mixed student class on the war, and then another on the atomic bombings. I can't say it was too impressive from the students stand point, even though the teacher was great.

Pretty much a majority of the international students (non-Japanese) never did the reading, and most of the time didn't have much knowledge on the subject (or purpose in Japan half the time, other than going to party and drink). 10% of the students were vocal and spoke about the reading, their opinion, and countered other's points... all done very politely and productively. The rest of the students who didn't do the reading either threw in an irrelevant point or tried to hide since they didn't do the 20 pages of reading that week. I would have been for a much more strict enforcement of the reading on that part...

As for the Japanese students, I'd say they put even less effort. While the reading was in English, the teacher did give other reading in Japanese to help them keep up with the class. They usually sat in the back scared to say anything, while we all hoped for them to add at least SOMETHING. There was one student however, who impressed the heck out of me, and she went through the reading and gave her opinion the best she could. However, she was quite shy, weak, and always scared. Intelligent, but absolutely spineless. Half of the Japanese students would just comment and talk behind the international students back about the content of the class and things that were said.

The class required a great deal of critical thinking, as most seminar classes do. I have to say I didn't see too many classes that were of this style (but I know they DO exist in Japan). There is a lot to be said for the material and insight gained from challenging other opinions, and talking about a subject without being immaturely attached personally to one subject in a class and unable to debate it without getting angry because someone "disagrees" with you. I do want to stress there IS a level of maturity in that regard, and is absolutely necessary for critical thinking activities such as debate.

Neither the international students nor the Japanese students impressed me much, but there was a clear lack of effort on the Japanese side to communicate and discuss the topics. You can count it down to cultural differences, but it also comes down to being completely unproductive in a seminar class as well. This is where critical thinking is absolutely needed, as well as a few other behavioral mindsets are required. I DO think the lack of participation, the catty talking behind the international students backs for certain views on history, lack of doing the work, and never countering a point that was made shows, among other things, a lack of critical thinking skills.

[caster51]

MY argument is that HISTORY is not taught correctly in Japan,
and thus i made comparisons to GERMANY
I think it is wrong from the begining..
there is no correct things in history
It doesn't seem to have taught a correct history at your school.either:p
I want to know your correct HISTORY in other topics

[JimmySeal]

Ahem. Just what do you think experimentation generates? Whimsy? It generates facts or highly regarded theorems, on top of what you wrote. Same with hypotheses: they are based largely on facts.

There's no such thing as absolute fact.
Drop a ball 100 times with a good timing mechanism and you'll be convinced that there is a gravitational constant equal to ~9.81m/s/s, but conduct a similar experiment on a quantum or relativistic scale, and it's not even remotely true.
100 years ago, Newtonian physics was "fact."

The scientific method allows us to be pretty sure about things, but in the end it's based on empirical observations, not facts.

[Emoni]

There's no such thing as absolute fact.


In regards to history and other areas of "interpretation" yes, this statement applies very well. What critical thinking offers is also the consideration that there are OTHER VIEWS that must be considered and evaluated whether they are accepted by larger educational organizations or not, especially if they have evidence and an argument to support them. By their very consideration, it facilitates expansion and the advancement of understanding of the field.

This is probably the single most beneficial aspect of critical thinking in regards to the study of history. It is this aspect that I often see lacking in Japanese education, as well as East Asia. Heck, it is needed more in the United States as well.

As I stated above, one of the "sins" in the teaching education of history is that there is a single accepted version of history... the one promoted and enforced by the Japanese Ministry of Education of course. The idea of a "right" version of history I ran into all too often, and when you have two people with two different versions of "correct history" speak without the ability to separate the issue from personal attacks. It's a problem. When you have millions and millions of people in East Asia accepting different national versions of history depending on a country with nationalist fervor and almost no personal study or research on the topic, let alone having been there... you have a REALLY BIG PROBLEM.

This is where critical thinking can bring the biggest benefit in the Japanese education system, international and interpersonal relations between nations. The open evaluation and consideration, not being a rebellious act, but an expected and encouraged path of thinking that is not meant to attack, or assault a country, nationality, but simply to gain an understanding from each angle.

That, above, is the benefits of introducing critical thinking in a stronger form in Japanese education.

I agree with many posters that history is one of the fields that would be most beneficial. My hesitation only comes from the opposition that I know it would certainly face if it was taught to kids and the backlash that would occur harming the movement for critical thinking as a tool of education in Japan. Changes don't happen over night.

[FrustratedDave]

Some rare classrooms will have lively debates, but most of the time, Japanese people don't know how to support their arguments/points like westerners do.
Even if most of those aguments can hold as much water as a paper bag.

I believe the thing people are misinterpreting about Japanese is that most Japanese won't voice their opinion unless they are pretty certain of what they are about to say, unlike most westerners. They certainly have the skills and capabilities to hold an aurgument no doubt about that. Westerners take the "foot in mouth" attitude about most things in discussions, westerners feel it necessary to voice their opinion even if it is wrong.
I feel that there is a big difference in not being able to support what they say and not wanting to say something that is potenialy wrong is two completely different things. Don't get those two confused

[Taiko666]

Even if most of those aguments can hold as much water as a paper bag.

I believe the thing people are misinterpreting about Japanese is that most Japanese won't voice their opinion unless they are pretty certain of what they are about to say, unlike most westerners. They certainly have the skills and capabilities to hold an aurgument no doubt about that. Westerners take the "foot in mouth" attitude about most things in discussions, westerners feel it necessary to voice their opinion even if it is wrong.
I feel that there is a big difference in not being able to support what they say and not wanting to say something that is potenialy wrong is two completely different things. Don't get those two confused

Although that's a good distinction, I don't think 'most' westerners are happy to voice their opinion even if they're not sure they're right. Only westerners I'd categorize as 'loud-mouths' or, more commonly, 'managers'

I'm certainly extremely reticent to speak in a meeting unless I'm 100% sure of my facts. (Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, rather than to open your mouth and prove it...) But I'm not reticent about pointing out (politely) somebody else's misunderstandings... I'm not sure most of my Japanese colleagues are the same in that respect.

[FrustratedDave]

Although that's a good distinction, I don't think 'most' westerners are happy to voice their opinion even if they're not sure they're right. Only westerners I'd categorize as 'loud-mouths' or, more commonly, 'managers'

I'm certainly extremely reticent to speak in a meeting unless I'm 100% sure of my facts. (Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, rather than to open your mouth and prove it...) But I'm not reticent about pointing out (politely) somebody else's misunderstandings... I'm not sure most of my Japanese colleagues are the same in that respect.
Very true, however b/c we are comparing here, westerners are far more likely to voice their opinion then a Japanese would if there was a little bit of doubt. I think the wording may inappropriate, I should have said westerners are far more likely to think they are right therefore voice their opinions more often.

[Emoni]

Well, keep in mind though, you can voice an opinion in the form of presenting a way to think about something and then tear apart the idea and build from that. Critical thinking skills are required there.

However, if you don't say ANYTHING... then how do you expect to go through a seminar class that requires critical thinking.

[pipokun]

I agree with Mars Man that it sounds like a joke to teach the knocking door or other very basic business manners at a junior college, but the main goal of junior colleges here is not to meet the expectation of students want to tranfer to a 4 year school, but just to give them more vocational skills (I highly doubt that the door-knocking is a skill, though...).

I don't think it is fair if you compare the everybody_welcoming_type junior colleges here with something like a boarding school in the UK.

[pipokun]

Debate in Japan is like bowling. One person does his thing (speaks) while the others sit quietly and listen. Then, the next person takes over. Most of the time, debate in Japan is not point vs. counterpoint as you might expect from western standpoints.
...


Your case is more foreign language matter than debate itself.
And correct me if I am wrong, the bowling what you call is also a type of debate.

[Mars Man]

One thing that seems to be getting left out here, is that critical thinking (thought process) is a mental matter. While it does greatly benefit from a good command of a language, it is not necessarily reflected in how outspoken a person is.

Therefore while the Japanese undergraduate student may not be so outspoken or argumentive in nature, that would not necessarily show that that student lacks critical thinking skills. That would have to be determined through a communicative process that would surely require a stretch of time.

I have had highschool students (studying English under me) who were on their highschool's (non-English) debate team (which teams do seem to be a little scarce here in Japan) so I can say that to some extent (and nothing new here) critical thought process is learned and applied in some settings at some highschools, at least.

I would (again) say it'd be better to work on developing such in 1-6 much more than what is.

Yes, pipokun san, that is correct about the difference between most jr. colleges and four year colleges here in Japan--the jr. college is more often somewhat of a conveyor belt system. Yet, teaching/applying critical thinking skills when it comes to interview questions (such as, Why do you want to work for us?) could stand to be bolstered. . . based on what I have seen, and heard personally and through facultiy meetings.

And again, as per the OP, this is far less a matter of creative thinking (imagination) than it is a process whereby critical thought approach is leveled against an objective.

[Glenski]

Jimmy (off topic),
Let's not get into the realm of quantum physics. Facts exist in science.

pipokun,
Yes, my bowling analogy can be seen as Japanese people doing debate in a different style than most westerners. However, it is a far cry from the critical thinking type of debates we are trying to establish here. Most of the "bowling" debates I've seen are just boring diatribes that do not tend to support themselves with ... uh... sorry, Jimmy... facts. And, supporting oneself is a mark of critical thinking, just as tearing down another person's ... uh... facts.... requires the same critical thinking.

[gaijinalways]

Sorry all, been busy recently. The last category, math prizes, is a subject I hold dear to my heart. Why? Because I used to tutor in math as well as particpate in math competitions in high school.

Winning these contests doesn't necessarily show critical thinking. I would often think that solving math problems is more pattern recognition and recall of solution methods. Now true, pattern recognition is often involved in critical thinking, as we need to notice when patterns are present to observe trends and then decide on a course of action based on those future possibilities.

But often I got Asian students (including Japanese) who simply had memorized solution methods to math problems. They didn't have to do a lot of critical thinking, mostly decide for example, this is like problem 4# on my list of solutions for algebraic problems.

What I found interesting was when I asked these same students to try to solve these problems in a different way, they couldn't do it. They only knew one solution method. That was the way they had been taught:p.

So yes, they are fast at recognizing solution methods, but these are based on memorized solution patterns, and of course practiced again and again.
Where critical thinking would be more involved would be with new math problems, and trying to devise ways to solve them.

[Emoni]

Disclaimer here before I say anything. I don't know math well at all, never have, probably never will.

However, I'm not sure math is really subject which can show a great deal of critical thinking. Knowing more than one way to solve a problem would show a deeper understanding of the mechanics, but does it really show that Japanese students know less critical thinking?

Heck... if they know one way to solve a problem that is probably better than most Americans... including me.

[pipokun]

gaijinalways, what I wanted to say in my #7 post was that Japan showed "not that good/bad" in something practical/unpractical.
The order below just means how practical it is in our daily life.


World Skills Competition
Patent
Paper, not toilet ones, but scientific ones
Nobel Prize
Math-related prizes
Ig Nobel Prize!

I simply think the opinions of Mars Man are just unfair to judge the education from the students who need remedial courses in his junior college.
I don't know what sorts/levels of remedies American community college students in the article below need, but nobody deny the US is the greatest country with millions of prize winners. And I am aware that there are many students in the US.


A Harsh Reality
According to the most recent federal statistics, 42 percent of public community college freshmen take remedial courses.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/education/edlife/22merrow-profile-3.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

*snip
The competitors are not ambitious to be a mathematician in Japan, and the problem may be they want to enroll in a medical school, no matter how good/poor performances they showed in the competition.
But this is not about the critical thinking, but it is just their job choice.

[Mars Man]

Of course, pipokun san, we have no need to talk about what's happening in any other education system, really, since in the strictest sense here, we are looking at the Japanese education system only, and testing it to see if we can determine whether it lacks in a certain way--namely, in critical thinking.

The students coming to the jr. college department and the four-year department at our school come from a fair, broad range of high schools (up to just under the upper crust of the top 10%, although) from both in and out of the prefecture. I would yet argue that this will give me a good enough sample space to judge what type and degree of education is general in Japan.

Of course, I have three children here in the Japanese education system, and that, along with my having taught high school and jr. high school students, also gives me a glimpse of something to hold along side the other things, and visualize patterns.

The point is, however, that critical thinking skills are evidently lacking or slack among a material number of students, and the likely cause (and I am arguing a major cause) of that is the lack of sharpening those skills in the earlier grades through not teaching them, and (maybe more so) not applying them nearly enough.

At the university level--even in many, if not most institutions--undergraduate classes in subjects that would benefit from the teaching/application of critical thinking, evidence yet too much of a 'conveyor belt' process of rote memory. (be sure to note the wording here: yet too much)

[Emoni]

Of course, pipokun san, we have no need to talk about what's happening in any other education system, really, since in the strictest sense here, we are looking at the Japanese education system only, and testing it to see if we can determine whether it lacks in a certain way--namely, in critical thinking.

Honestly, there is no need to ask people to stay on topic in almost every single post. Moreover, any comparison and information on differences between the use of critical thinking between Japan and America via teaching methods benefits this thread. I have already been surprised by the very warm reception to this thread since I posted it originally and the amount of information everyone has generously given on the subject (including you MarsMan), and anything related to education and critical thinking that would lead to a better understanding Japan's educational problems (formal and informal) is greatly welcome.

Now, somewhat in reference to Pipokun's article which mentioned testing; in Japanese testing, are there critical reading essays given at any point I wonder? Often colleges in the United States REQUIRE that this is taught through a class or a writing test before one can graduate at the university level. While I'm not going to say this is a grand example by comparison to Japan and a writing test in the United States, but this is an intricate part of the University system that I have seen that requires mandatory critical thinking (as well as the writing skills that they are testing). What I am more curious is if any entrance exams at all require or test this thinking.

I have talked to a dozen Japanese student friends of mine about the test and so far I have found that the entrance exams themselves mostly focus on multiple choice answers and very short essays on very specific questions. Analysis and critical thinking, from what I have heard, are entirely absent. Even with the University entrance exams... a place where critical thinking should be mandatory. Moreover, if you place such great importance on these tests you are in some ways stifling critical thinking as well, as anything that is not going to show up on the test, is study time wasted. Those who gain entrance and simply do other activities have now just invested their time better for entrance into the University instead of thinking deeper.

Here is one last question for MarsMan, which you don't have to answer as it is directly personal. With your children in the Japanese education system facing what you have stated you see as a problem, do you feel personally that there are avenues and methods for you to teach your children to think critically and apply that thinking? That is, despite the education system not supporting it. Do you feel your children would in fact have a harder time in the education if you taught them successfully to do so? In what manner?

[Glenski]

Tests in class and test for entrance exams tend to be multiple choice just because it is easier to grade them. Math classes, of course, expect you to show your work, but there has been argument on this thread as to whether those questions truly represent critical thinking.

I've seen some of the entrance exams. Students are sometimes expected to analyze graphic or tabular data or to get the gist of a paragraph describing such data. That's about as far as it goes for critical thinking, IMO. But, there is obviously a limit for how to measure it in a classroom, too. You could ask, "How does any other country test it?", but that's not the real point.

Many tests (English, history, whatever) do far worse here in terms of presenting problems to be solved. Lots of times the questions are nearly word for word paraphrases of the answers, so it is pretty easy to find.
Example:
What was the reason Johnny couldn't go to work?
Answer (as written in the paragraph): Johnny couldn't go to work because he was sick.
Students would either copy that verbatim, or look for it as answer A, B, C, or D.
Inferring answers without such giveaways is a sign of critical thinking, and it is very hard to instill in students. Japanese teachers tell me this is difficult even in their classes using Japanese!

[Emoni]

"You could ask, "How does any other country test it?", but that's not the real point."

Yes, how the other country tests it isn't the point, but when compared to Japan in regards to critical thinking and how tests in other countries that consider critical thinking as well as how that material could be applied to Japanese education is.

One thing you mentioned about answering those questions verbatim.

One thing I noticed during my classes in Japan is that when questions like that were asked and there was any group assignments or the answers were read out, you could almost always tell the "Westerner's" answers. The same goes for comparing my own answers with the Japanese students, as well as the other students from Asia.

When a question was asked like that, almost 95% of the time the "non-western" students would simply copy the exact paragraph from the sentence above. Those from "western nations," including myself, rarely did this and often paraphrased it or wrote more of a deeper explanation. I often reject the "group" pushing to just copy the sentence from the reading passage to present as an answer on the grounds that it was not truly answering and just copying the question. This is one example I believe falls under critical thinking for sure.

I'm curious Glenski, have you run into this sort of pattern?

[anomouse]

Did anyone take the SATs? Those tests are mostly multiple choice questions too, even for critical reading and writing (plus a short essay.) The College Board says that they test your critical thinking skills, but do they?

[gaijinalways]

When a question was asked like that, almost 95% of the time the "non-western" students would simply copy the exact paragraph from the sentence above. Those from "western nations," including myself, rarely did this and often paraphrased it or wrote more of a deeper explanation. I often reject the "group" pushing to just copy the sentence from the reading passage to present as an answer on the grounds that it was not truly answering and just copying the question. This is one example I believe falls under critical thinking for sure.

I'm curious Glenski, have you run into this sort of pattern?

I often run into this, where students are asked a question, but rather than just answering the question they will give me the whole sentence and sometimes even a paragraph copied verbatim.

Of course, sometimes they simply didn't really understand the question due to linguistic problems.

[Emoni]

Consideration of the language barrier is valid, but I've noticed this happens even when it was in Japanese. On top of that many students from East Asia would do the same practice of just copying for the Japanese language classes.

Anomouse, your point is well taken. I don't believe tests aren't the way to solve critical thinking nor really evaluate it. However, there is information that can be gained over all from testing, however off the mark it might be.

[caster51]

Emoni;
I think It is done because your idea is subjectivity because there is no result that is led from that.
Is it a critical thinking to lead a result as an evil practice ?
even if it is trure, what is problem?
The focus is already indefinite.

i think westerner doesn't examine anything for themselves before critical thinking. that is, only subjective thinking is needed?

in my opinionm i think westerner is the lack of objective thinking.
that is why it came out "katakana is racism...."

[gaijinalways]

in my opinionm i think westerner is the lack of objective thinking.
that is why it came out "katakana is racism...."

But that was already disproved as it was pointed out that there are some words written in Katakana that are not foreign words. I would state the majority of them are foreign, and I am not really sure why Japanese uses Katakana, but that discussion is a bit beyond the borders of this thread's discussion.

i think westerner doesn't examine anything for themselves before critical thinking. that is, only subjective thinking is needed?

You raise an interesting point and a problem we often face when evaluating things. Some things are difficult to measure, hence they are subjective (such as living in Japan, who is it easier for?) whereas some things are easier to measure objectively (as in Who makes more money in Japan?).

[Glenski]

One thing you mentioned about answering those questions verbatim.
One thing I noticed during my classes in Japan is that when questions like that were asked and there was any group assignments or the answers were read out, you could almost always tell the "Westerner's" answers. The same goes for comparing my own answers with the Japanese students, as well as the other students from Asia.
When a question was asked like that, almost 95% of the time the "non-western" students would simply copy the exact paragraph from the sentence above. (snip)
I'm curious Glenski, have you run into this sort of pattern?
Every time I give work in class. In fact, they usually copy extraneous material, far beyond what actually answers the question.

If one truly understood the language, that would not happen, of course.

[gaijinalways]

Every time I give work in class. In fact, they usually copy extraneous material, far beyond what actually answers the question.

If one truly understood the language, that would not happen, of course.

Though it might happen if people 'thought' giving long winded answers made it 'sound' better. In Japanese, often answers are given which provide a lot of information which Westerners would consider extraneous information.

Getting to the point is not one of the virtues of this culture. I would think critical thinking would necessitate that, getting to the point because one has to decide, "What is the question asking?"

[Emoni]

Every time I give work in class. In fact, they usually copy extraneous material, far beyond what actually answers the question.
If one truly understood the language, that would not happen, of course.

Could you explain a little more? I'm not sure I understood. When they copy this material, is it that they are just copying too much without considering or thinking about it? I assume you're talking about essay questions?　What sorts of questions. I'm specially curious if they are strongly related to evaluation that might require critical thinking skills. I.E. Not just "find this word in the paragraph" or "list this date."

[theAlphaDuck]

relating to something Mars Man said....

for one to understand the flower...one must also understand the
leaves...the soil...the bacteria...the elements (chemical and
nature)... the sun..ect.

one cannot hope to gain an understanding of anything without looking
at where that thing itself sits in the greater scheme of things.

thus to say that this thread is about the Japanese education system
only is a flawed conclution based on the OP
infact the thread is about where the Japanese education system sits
(with specific regards to critical thinking) in relation to other
education systems in the world.

thus i would say that there is EVERY need to examine other education
systems in the world... because if you only look at one thing....

one cannot COMPARE and CONTRAST....
and without that...there can be no understanding..

as for tests being able to show critical thinking...,this is on the
most part untrue...
the majority of tests (exept those in subjects such as HISTORY)
are all about the retention and regurtiation of knowledge...simple
facts, and showing an understanding of those facts by using them
E.G. you learn a formula in physics... you remember formula...you use formula.

infact even in tests which require long answers and essay questions it is very hard to test for critical thinking

Peace

[pipokun]

Every time I give work in class. In fact, they usually copy extraneous material, far beyond what actually answers the question.
If one truly understood the language, that would not happen, of course.

Why don't you answer the simple question about SAT by anomouse?
What you are talking about is something like...

1. (A Japanese) Seeing sample reading questions of Japanese with listening
2. Surprised to see how easy questions they are
3. Concluded that American students were stupid

How ridiculous...

SAT Subject Tests Preparation Booklet (http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/prof/counselors/tests/sat/2006-07-SAT-subject-tests-preparation-booklet.pdf)

[Emoni]

thus i would say that there is EVERY need to examine other education
systems in the world... because if you only look at one thing....
one cannot COMPARE and CONTRAST....
and without that...there can be no understanding..

I'm glad to see you are back Alpha.

I agree absolutely. I never start a thread with such a narrow-minded outset as to consider nothing related to the subject in the evaluation of a topic. I've been on this forum for some time, and some of the best threads are those that flow freely under the topic. I'm impressed by the information and everything that has been put down here and I never expected so much information on this thread. It has turned out great, and exploring all sorts of aspects under the umbrella of the topic that I posted. This is everything a poster could hope for.

As for comparing, I think that from the education systems and styles I have seen East Asia can be sectioned off as kind of a group. From the classes I've seen in China, Korea, and Japan, they generally do tend to lack critical thinking and push heavy rote memory. A good memory is great, however, so is the ability to question and analyze. I study history related issues connected with World War II, and I swear one of the major problems is that consideration and analysis of history through a critical thinking and questioning mindset is lacking, but rote memory of nationalistic politically driven history is strong.

Now, building on what you mentioned about understanding where the education systems come from, I think that is absolutely critical to knowing how best critical thinking could be implemented. As i mentioned before, while I agree that history is one of the topics most in need, I believe it would be the most impossible to apply it too all at once under the current situation.

I'm curious though about the European education system and how much critical thinking is applied in various areas there. If I remember right, the Japanese education system was roughly based off the German system. Of course I'm sure the education system there has changed greatly.

[Glenski]

Why don't you answer the simple question about SAT by anomouse?Pardon the heck out of me, ok? When I took the SAT's, Nixon was in office. I can't remember what they were like. Fair enough?

Could you explain a little more? I'm not sure I understood. When they copy this material, is it that they are just copying too much without considering or thinking about it? Yes. I teach a reading skills course to first year uni students. Scanning, skimming, word structures, etc.

I will sometimes give a short article at or slightly above their level of reading. Comprehension questions follow, whether they do them individually or (with some creative lesson planning on my part) with a partner. I'm not looking for short essays, just facts, but I expect them to read critically and carefully. Here's one example of what I call failed attempt:

Q. How much sleep did David get when he was in college?

I expect them to read where it says "In those days, David didn't sleep much; he went to bed after midnight and got up at 5am every day" and make the connection so that they write something like "less than 5 hours per day".

What I got from some students is a verbatim copy of the above sentence, from "In" to "day".

These are science students, and I emphasize from day 1 they must learn to read carefully. The above exercise followed an entire lesson on reading carefully, where every word counted in providing meaning (and sometimes hidden meaning).

I assume you're talking about essay questions?I hate multiple choice questions unless I am trying to show them how tricky TOEIC can be, or if I just need to grade something quickly. Essay type questions like the above show me whether they understand the English they are reading (and if they can paraphrase).

I'm specially curious if they are strongly related to evaluation that might require critical thinking skills. I.E. Not just "find this word in the paragraph" or "list this date."Those types of questions are something one can do very early in such a course. Gotta warm them up somehow, eh? You be the judge if my example above is close to critical thinking skills in action. I despise the Japanese way of phrasing the question to be almost identical to how the words for the answer appear in the text (as I recounted above at 7:48).

[Glenski]

From the classes I've seen in China, Korea, and Japan, they generally do tend to lack critical thinking and push heavy rote memory. A good memory is great, however, so is the ability to question and analyze.
Here's my winner for the week. A 4th year student came to me and proudly stated she had just gotten back her TOEIC test score: 600. This was a difference of only 15 points (more) than her previous test, and I had already told her that this was not statistically significant, according to the ETS test makers. Shrug. In one ear, out the other.

She kept her pace and excitement, oblivious to what I had just said, and then continued. According to school policy, she now no longer needs to register for any English courses, so she will not continue with the last 3 weeks of my course. Uh, ok. She then said she will probably audit a future course I teach. Uh, ok, again.

600 is not a stellar score, but it satisfied the school's policy. She now took that to mean that either she was a genius or that she didn't need courses anymore.

Then, she pulls out an email. She had made reservations through a travel agent online to stay somewhere in Europe. The agency sent her a confirmation earlier. The email in her hands was from the hotel itself, who also asked for confirmation of the details (price, type of accommodation, dates, etc.). It clearly stated, "Please confirm by return mail."

She asked me what this meant. Took me 5 minutes to explain it to her.

Uh, ok. 600, eh? Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyup. Thinking skills in action.

[pipokun]

...
Uh, ok. 600, eh? Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyup. Thinking skills in action.

Considering her major (science), I don't think it is that bad.

[pipokun]

...
I study history related issues connected with World War II, and I swear one of the major problems is that consideration and analysis of history through a critical thinking and questioning mindset is lacking, but rote memory of nationalistic politically driven history is strong.
...

Did you really see the classes in Japan?
If I remember correctly, it was you who asked some study materials using in Japan somewhere here.

Nationalistic politically driven history is strong?
Tell me your analysis.

[Mars Man]

Due to the continued mislead temperament displayed by those who choose not to understand that regardless of thoughts and ideas once held in mind, or which later have come to mind, yet do not carry the weight to determine the perimeters of topic set by an opening post's thread title, context, and content that has been expressly set by an opening post, I am closing this thread until further notice.