One of my friends told me about this... [Archive]

Kyle

Jul 8, 2008, 09:14

From keishicho.com:

"Japanese police arrest whoever they like and whenever they like for whatever reason they want.

Japanese Police:

* Can punish any citizen with 20-23 days incarceration - no questions asked.

* Search people and private property at will without warrants. They do it all the time even if there is a law against it.

* Routinely break other laws at will with little or no recourse to the victims.

* Extort money from accused people as a condition for their release form 20-23 days incarceration (playing the role of judge and jury).

* Have extensive relations and dealings with the Japanese mafia.

* Covering up brutality, beatings, shootings and generally any other problems is the norm in Japan and not the exception.

* Rely so extensively on forced confessions during the 20-23 days of incarceration that that their actual police skills are poor.

* Have a bad habit of ignoring the majority of basic complaints people bring to them, which in turn has resulted in a large number victims whose attackers keep coming after them. "If there's no blood on the floor or no broken bones then we don't want to mess with it" is the de facto motto of Japanese police. It makes for good business for the mafia since they they end up getting a lot of business the Japanese police will not take care of.

* Hurt someone in a traffic "accident"? You're going to jail and the "police" (not a judge) will let you out after you have paid off the victim as much money as the victim is requesting. Don't pay, then you go to trial where the judge will do the same thing and put you in jail. The "result" (victim injured) is the only thing that matters in Japan. Little kid (or big adult) darts in front of your car on a busy road with no way to stop... you're going to jail. That's Japanese justice.

* The police together with the prosecutor, enjoy a 98% conviction rate for anyone sent to trial.

20-23 days at will incarcerations + 98% + conviction rate = a pathetic justice system."

Anyone else have any stances on this. Not sure if its true or just propaganda.

theAlphaDuck

Jul 8, 2008, 09:25

well what i find disturbing is

that the death penealty can be handed out by MAGISTRATES!

also someone on death row does not know when they are going to die....

Kyle

Jul 8, 2008, 09:27

well what i find disturbing is

that the death penealty can be handed out by MAGISTRATES!

also someone on death row does not know when they are going to die....

Man, that is really scary...so is this real? or is it just someone trying to scare off people?

theAlphaDuck

Jul 8, 2008, 09:29

Kyle

Jul 8, 2008, 09:43

whoops double post....
yea it's true...
but as for the 20-23 day's thing thats nothing.....
here in the uk its now 42 day's under terrorism legislation
(and thats without proof, without needing to press charges but does not get used on normal people)

Holy crap...those laws are massively messed up.

I need to see what kind of crazy laws like that the US has...or maybe i shouldnt hahah

caster51

Jul 8, 2008, 10:03

Holy crap...those laws are massively messed up.
I need to see what kind of crazy laws like that the US has...or maybe i shouldnt hahah
Everything is real .Japan is the worst country..
that is why please tell your friend " Dont go to Japan"

Mars Man

Jul 8, 2008, 10:31

Don't worry Kyle、there's not nearly as much truth in the overall layout of information there. I don't know anything about the reported source, but it would be good to perhaps check that out.

Please keep in mind here, that this thread will be to discuss the truthfulness of that claims that the source cited has made, and that these aspects are about the situation in Japan. Therefore all talk of other stuff unrelated to that matter will fall under off-topic.

theAlphaDuck

Jul 8, 2008, 10:40

there you go i'll save you the mouse clicks...

tho i WOULD like to point out that there is a difference between MODERATING

and STIFFELING the flow of conversation

Emoni

Jul 8, 2008, 11:51

^ I'm all for keeping things on topic, as I find it critical to the conversation and getting to the heart of the matter, but chill MarsMan. You're going way too far on most of your actions recently and along with other users I'm also seeing a problem with it.

As for the validity of these claims, I believe some are true.

I took a law class in Japan and certain parts of what you posted were mentioned. The conviction rate was one. A friend of mine had a run in with the police that led me to strongly believe to avoid the Japanese police and not ever trust them when they tried to convict a friend of his for a bicycle he "stole." Long story short (that is better told by another member of this forum) he didn't steal it and they were trying to get him to confess to a crime he didn't commit in any way what-so-ever. Luckily, he was released shortly after.

I've also heard of the holding laws, but then again I believe the United States can be just as bad now if you are labeled a terrorist or whatever. Legal issues need to be carefully watched.

Go by this rule when in any country... don't trust police. Sorry, but those with power to do wrong and unjust things and get away with it sometimes do. There are plenty of good ones, but there ARE bad ones and they can do a lot of damage. Even those who are over zealous about their job to the point where they go TOO far in enforcement without consideration to the effects and damage that results. Sounds familiar doesn't it. *hint*

In regards to what you hear and such, I think posting here to find out what was accurate was a very good idea. Don't believe everything, and nothing is the case all the time, but do be cautious. If the police do go after you in Japan for something cooperate, but at the same time be on guard and don't say anything and NEVER EVER SIGN A SINGLE THING OR AGREE TO SOMETHING. Most of the time with a good cop though, if you cooperate and show an effort to remedy any situation I would figure you are probably be just fine. Remember, that that is most of the time. There are the exceptions in any country.

theAlphaDuck

Jul 11, 2008, 20:17

yes would HAVE to agree with Emoni there....

also think banning my account..could be described as a little OTT nest paux?
(and then joining in on an anti Alphaduck post on the serios discussions board while you KNEW i was banned......that's just not cricket old chap....no honour in that kind of move)

the 42 day law in the uk is now being tested in the House of lords (upper house)
where there IS some opposition.... so who knows perhaps it wont get passed.

i have heard (regarding the japanese police)
that they are VERY polite to white outlanders....as long as they are from europe or US...
but very harsh on any other race that are not japanese...especially russians

that was told to me by someone who had first hand experience...
apparently...he was cycling along...minding his own buisness...
when the police started harrasing him.... griping him up...shouting....generally manhandeling....

because he was near a russian area...

however he then used one of the british tourists best anti police weapon
because until now he had kept his mouth shut
"I say chap's, what's the meaning of all this then?..seems highly irregular if you ask me."
at which point they immidietly stopped...
said sorry....
bowed profusely and left....bowing.. (the impression he does of this is quite funny)

yes one of the best things you can do when confronted by hostile police abroad...
talk like your the landed gentry and own half of Anglia...works everytime :P

Peace and goodwill

orochi

Jul 11, 2008, 20:20

The police do have a frightening amount of power. And little of it is checked.

theAlphaDuck

Jul 11, 2008, 20:21

indeed... but it's not just the police we need to worry about

orochi

Jul 11, 2008, 20:25

I see you're concerned about the Martian land cannons as well. I hear they can launch a shell from Luna to to Earth in under 20 seconds.

theAlphaDuck

Jul 11, 2008, 20:37

I see you're concerned about the Martian land cannons as well. I hear they can launch a shell from Luna to to Earth in under 20 seconds.

well i was... but then this really kind lady with lots of shopping bags showed me how i can protect myself by wearing a hat made of tin foil....

stops the NBA and FIFA reading your mind aswell :P

FrustratedDave

Jul 11, 2008, 20:51

From keishicho.com:

"Japanese police arrest whoever they like and whenever they like for whatever reason they want.
Japanese Police:
* Can punish any citizen with 20-23 days incarceration - no questions asked.
* Search people and private property at will without warrants. They do it all the time even if there is a law against it.
* Routinely break other laws at will with little or no recourse to the victims.
* Extort money from accused people as a condition for their release form 20-23 days incarceration (playing the role of judge and jury).
* Have extensive relations and dealings with the Japanese mafia.
* Covering up brutality, beatings, shootings and generally any other problems is the norm in Japan and not the exception.
* Rely so extensively on forced confessions during the 20-23 days of incarceration that that their actual police skills are poor.
* Have a bad habit of ignoring the majority of basic complaints people bring to them, which in turn has resulted in a large number victims whose attackers keep coming after them. "If there's no blood on the floor or no broken bones then we don't want to mess with it" is the de facto motto of Japanese police. It makes for good business for the mafia since they they end up getting a lot of business the Japanese police will not take care of.
* Hurt someone in a traffic "accident"? You're going to jail and the "police" (not a judge) will let you out after you have paid off the victim as much money as the victim is requesting. Don't pay, then you go to trial where the judge will do the same thing and put you in jail. The "result" (victim injured) is the only thing that matters in Japan. Little kid (or big adult) darts in front of your car on a busy road with no way to stop... you're going to jail. That's Japanese justice.
* The police together with the prosecutor, enjoy a 98% conviction rate for anyone sent to trial.
20-23 days at will incarcerations + 98% + conviction rate = a pathetic justice system."
Anyone else have any stances on this. Not sure if its true or just propaganda.
Here , you left a few out.
*They killed the tooth fairy.
*A Japanese Police man was the shooter on the grassy knoll
*They arrest you for looking right first instead of left when crossing the road.
*Every foriegn person will be held unconditionally at customs for a minimum of 20-23 days.
*In this time the police have the right to spend your money and take your omiyage's to their homes and friends. They will never be returned.
*And the last but not the least, police have the right to push in front of you in a supermarket line, take your wallet and pay for their groceries with your visa card, then they have the right to use deadly force if you refuse to sign the slip.

Emoni

Jul 12, 2008, 06:15

Here , you left a few out.
*They killed the tooth fairy.
*A Japanese Police man was the shooter on the grassy knoll
*They arrest you for looking right first instead of left when crossing the road.
*Every foriegn person will be held unconditionally at customs for a minimum of 20-23 days.
*In this time the police have the right to spend your money and take your omiyage's to their homes and friends. They will never be returned.
*And the last but not the least, police have the right to push in front of you in a supermarket line, take your wallet and pay for their groceries with your visa card, then they have the right to use deadly force if you refuse to sign the slip.

He posted legit questions though. Each of the original listings are things I have tended to hear before, and I can understand why he'd want to check to make sure of the situation. As I stated in my post above... some of them are very real.

Mike Cash

Jul 12, 2008, 09:09

I'm probably the only person on the board who could answer any of this in any sort of informed and rational fashion, and I have to say the general flow of the thread doesn't encourage me to make the effort.

Suffice it to say that the original post contained 10% truth and 90% uninformed gaijin sensationalist hyperbole.

FrustratedDave

Jul 12, 2008, 10:52

Mike Cash

Jul 12, 2008, 11:21

And I thought I said the exact same thing?

I wanted to make sure the obtuse and those immune to sarcasm also got the message.

FrustratedDave

Jul 12, 2008, 11:27

I wanted to make sure the obtuse and those immune to sarcasm also got the message.
Gotcha...:cool::cool::cool::cool:

pipokun

Jul 12, 2008, 18:19

Hokkaido Police at Chitose Airport only stop non-Asian passengers for G8 Summit anti-terrorist ID Checks, ask me for ID three times. Voice recording as proof (UPDATED)
http://www.debito.org/?p=1752

I am not a supporter of Debito, but the mp3 file would be the great answer for you, Kyle. And if you study Japanese, it is also a good study material for you to know how to speak Japanese humbly like the cop.

Emoni

Jul 12, 2008, 18:51

Mike, if you want to explain what you were going to say, I for one would be more than willing to read it with the explanations you provide. The more information the better.

If you want to say something, please do. I believe the original poster actually asked directly about the validity in the first place.

Mike Cash

Jul 12, 2008, 18:57

I've covered this stuff in lots of other posts over the years. A search would go a long way toward helping me stave off the onset of carpal tunnel syndrome.

FrustratedDave

Jul 12, 2008, 19:04

I took a law class in Japan and certain parts of what you posted were mentioned. The conviction rate was one. A friend of mine had a run in with the police that led me to strongly believe to avoid the Japanese police and not ever trust them when they tried to convict a friend of his for a bicycle he "stole." Long story short (that is better told by another member of this forum) he didn't steal it and they were trying to get him to confess to a crime he didn't commit in any way what-so-ever. Luckily, he was released shortly after.

I wonder if any other police department in the world tries to pressure a suspect to confess? And don't you find it very convient that it was only "luck" that prevailed in your friends situation?

theAlphaDuck

Jul 12, 2008, 23:03

I wonder if any other police department in the world tries to pressure a suspect to confess? And don't you find it very convient that it was only "luck" that prevailed in your friends situation?

yea in brittain we have system that is very much based on confennsions...
like any other country really....

there is a BIG difference tho....
in the UK the police can tell you whatever they want to get you to confess!
e.g.
well we found your prints/DNA at the scene
your mate Baz said it was you
we have CCTV that shows you were there ect.

the idea is that you then confess so that it looks better in court....but they didn't have any evidence anyway!

lots of people get caught in that one!

Emoni

Jul 13, 2008, 07:51

I wonder if any other police department in the world tries to pressure a suspect to confess? And don't you find it very convient that it was only "luck" that prevailed in your friends situation?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that other police departments in the world don't pressure suspects. Moreover, I'm limiting the detail of the story to allow another member to post details if they choose to. There was a bit of luck, both bad and good in the story that I heard.

By no means are the police "all bad" and I'd never say that. However, I'm not at all naive and foolish enough to think of them as all good. I know when I walk past one there is always a good chance of him doing the whole racial profile crap and checking to see if I have my gaijin card. I don't ride a bike, but I'm sure I would have to worry about being stopped for that too as others I have known, for no justifiable reason.

FrustratedDave

Jul 13, 2008, 08:45

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that other police departments in the world don't pressure suspects. Moreover, I'm limiting the detail of the story to allow another member to post details if they choose to. There was a bit of luck, both bad and good in the story that I heard.
By no means are the police "all bad" and I'd never say that. However, I'm not at all naive and foolish enough to think of them as all good. I know when I walk past one there is always a good chance of him doing the whole racial profile crap and checking to see if I have my gaijin card. I don't ride a bike, but I'm sure I would have to worry about being stopped for that too as others I have known, for no justifiable reason.
I did no such thing as put words in your mouth. Every thing you wrote had connotations that the Japanese police are the only ones to force a confession on someone who was supposedly inoccent. If you didn't think that then it would not have come up in topic of coversation which is related to Japanese police being assumed as above the law.

I just find it so covenient that people choose their words so it makes it seem like there is foul play. It was just "luck" that allowed your friend to be released and not the fact that the police did their job???

Mike Cash

Jul 13, 2008, 09:03

I know when I walk past one there is always a good chance of him doing the whole racial profile crap and checking to see if I have my gaijin card.

In a quarter century I have shown my gaijin card to precisely ONE cop. And that was a guy inside a koban who gave every indication of having asked out of 3 a.m. stark boredom rather than anything else. That was probably about 15 or so years ago, long before the terrorist stuff or the general influx of foreigners.

I don't ride a bike, but I'm sure I would have to worry about being stopped for that too as others I have known, for no justifiable reason.

I know you didn't exactly say it, but I am sick and tired of the foreigners who have it in their heads that stopping people on bicycles for 職質 is some special thing the Japanese police have cooked up just to mess with foreigners. As far as foreigners are concerned, everything that happens to them happens only to them and for no other reason than that they are foreigners.

FrustratedDave

Jul 13, 2008, 09:16

In a quarter century I have shown my gaijin card to precisely ONE cop. And that was a guy inside a koban who gave every indication of having asked out of 3 a.m. stark boredom rather than anything else. That was probably about 15 or so years ago, long before the terrorist stuff or the general influx of foreigners.
I know you didn't exactly say it, but I am sick and tired of the foreigners who have it in their heads that stopping people on bicycles for 職質 is some special thing the Japanese police have cooked up just to mess with foreigners. As far as foreigners are concerned, everything that happens to them happens only to them and for no other reason than that they are foreigners.
Exactly and for the record I have shown my card to no police officer for the time that I have been here. And I got booked for speeding in a car I was driving by myself just recently and all they asked for was my drivers licence and they had every right to ask for my alien card. (It was on a highway where the speed limit had been reduced from 100km to 80km, my fault for not paying attention)

Taiko666

Jul 14, 2008, 11:44

Well... even though I more apt to whinge about Japan than Mike Cash or Frustrated Dave, I have to admit that I've only had to show my card to the police once... while I was waiting for a level-crossing gate to open while obviously hungover. And I've been stopped for a traffic offence too... just had to show my license.

Of course I've had to show my gaijin card to join banks, video rental shops, libraries etc.

My take on the gaijin card is that it could be Good Thing which eases the lives of foreigners IF:

1) it wasn't necessary to carry it at all times (can't see a valid reason for to single out only foreigners for this requirement... all or nothing please (preferably nothing)

2) it didn't contain so much info (id theft must be a breeze if you're in possession of somebody's gaijin card.)

theAlphaDuck

Jul 14, 2008, 16:08

I just find it so covenient that people choose their words so it makes it seem like there is foul play. It was just "luck" that allowed your friend to be released and not the fact that the police did their job???

hmmm yes.....very convenient that bit of "luck" there....
usually when people get "lucky" and let off by the police it's because they have told them something :P

as for Japanese police being Racist to outlanders....
OF COURSE THEY ARE!!

i've never even been to Japan and i can tell you that...
for there is NO POLICE FORCE in the world which is not Racist...
it's one of life's little facts... it takes a certain breed of person to become a cop/fed/pig/rozzer....and thus racists often find there way to the top of the Force/filth/babylon/50/Justice Squad

thems there just be the rules!

KirinMan

Jul 14, 2008, 17:53

1) it wasn't necessary to carry it at all times (can't see a valid reason for to single out only foreigners for this requirement... all or nothing please (preferably nothing)

Well in comparison to the days when a finger print was included on the card itself it is fairly begnin in my opinion.

I carry mine along side my drivers license and I can honestly say that even after getting a speeding ticket back many eons ago I have never had to show it to a police officer that I can recall. Oh in just in case something does happen to me where I am incapacitated and can not talk or something I would be grateful that they have my personal information to notify my family to pick up the body for disposal if necessary.

All or nothing? Why should Japanese need to be subject to the same treatment as foreigners in Japan?

theAlphaDuck

Jul 14, 2008, 22:53

All or nothing? Why should Japanese need to be subject to the same treatment as foreigners in Japan?

probably depends...
IF when they are abroad do THEY want to be treated as second class citizens?
or have special things THEY need to do?

in the UK everyone is equal in the eye's of the law...
discrimination based on age, sex (and sexuality), race or religion is ILLIGAL

what i am interested to know is:
what happens if you are asked to present your gajin card and you don't have it?

and what happens if you lose it?

Mike Cash

Jul 15, 2008, 05:11

I can't abide trolls. Especially those who speak from ignorance, can't spell, and have no idea where their shift keys are. Into the Ignore List you go.

theAlphaDuck

Jul 15, 2008, 05:22

well you better get used to it...cos we got Wi-Fi under the bridge now....

oh yes...and thermal imaging to catch goats....mwha ha ha ha

ignorant.....moi?...
I'd say ignorance is about closing your mind to points of view you don't understand or agree with.....

well better to be ignorant than Ignant

hmmm if only i could bring myself to care :P

FrustratedDave

Jul 15, 2008, 08:27

probably depends...
IF when they are abroad do THEY want to be treated as second class citizens?
or have special things THEY need to do?
in the UK everyone is equal in the eye's of the law...
discrimination based on age, sex (and sexuality), race or religion is ILLIGAL But yet people still steal cars in the UK...
what i am interested to know is:
what happens if you are asked to present your gajin card and you don't have it?
and what happens if you lose it? Better use the search button for this one Duck. But if you can't , police have the "right" to take you for a ride to your friendly local police station. I have heard of people getting a warning in many cases though.

I'd say ignorance is about closing your mind to points of view you don't understand or agree with.....
well better to be ignorant than Ignant
hmmm if only i could bring myself to care :P
And ignant is the slang of ignorant so is what you are saying that it is better to be ignorant than ignorant? I don't quite follow b/c your previous statements have confused me. Here is a quote from you eariler,
.....as for Japanese police being Racist to outlanders....
OF COURSE THEY ARE!!
i've never even been to Japan and i can tell you that...
for there is NO POLICE FORCE in the world which is not Racist...
it's one of life's little facts...

So does this mean that the UK police, even though it is the law to not be racist, is in fact racist? I get the feeling you are contradicting your opinions.

KirinMan

Jul 15, 2008, 11:00

Charles Barkley

Jul 15, 2008, 11:23

IF when they are abroad do THEY want to be treated as second class citizens?

Um, interesting choice of words seeing as they would not in fact be citizens if they were overseas in another country. Physical presence in a country does not a citizen make.

If you lose your gaijin card you can get another one. Just have to go to the local government office. I have never been asked for mine by police (only been here two years) so I dont know what would happen if you were asked for one while you were in a state of having lost it. I imagine you say you've lost it, ask the officer to contact your employer, and that's that.

The high conviction rate, expectation of confession, and propaganda about foreign crime are slightly troubling, however the clean cut white guy card I carry helps balance some of that out.

Emoni

Jul 15, 2008, 11:57

Chidoriashi

Jul 15, 2008, 12:05

Yeah, I agree, give the OP a chance, it is very hard to get a feel for attitude on the internet, and the info/questions seemed legit and not presented in a way of trying to vilify Japan, and push some sort of "gaijin's burden" agenda.
The man just wants to know what is true and what is BS, and what is half true and half BS. That's all.

Kyle

Jul 15, 2008, 12:17

Ditto to what Charles stated.
As for the concerns you mentioned I share the same. I find it disappointing how there seems to be just bickering and silence on this thread, as the original poster was mostly asking a question and I don't see a reason for the attitude against this topic. There are some seriously legitimate questions regarding the police and law in Japan. Yes, there is hype and misinformation, but as Charles stated, some are quite accurate and went along with law classes I took in Japan as well.

When I posted this thread I had no intention of people getting in others throats and stuff like that. All I wanted to know was if they stated facts were real or made up, and which ones were real if not all. Then once we got into other states and their laws and it just got interesting and people got heated and I decided to stop looking at this thread because it just became a fight.

Thank you all for your views and keeping this thread alive, it was a very interesting read. Much appreciated.

KirinMan

Jul 15, 2008, 12:26

Ditto to what Charles stated.
As for the concerns you mentioned I share the same. I find it disappointing how there seems to be just bickering and silence on this thread, as the original poster was mostly asking a question and I don't see a reason for the attitude against this topic. There are some seriously legitimate questions regarding the police and law in Japan. Yes, there is hype and misinformation, but as Charles stated, some are quite accurate and went along with law classes I took in Japan as well.

Ok what "serious legitimate questions" do you have regarding the police and law in Japan?

I would think that if a person was going to take a stance such as this they would instead of questioning the "bickering and silence" on this thread add their comments, knowledge, or opinions.

It's easy to point fingers in blaming others for their actions, and in all honesty the manner in which the OP was written to me at least was written in a manner to incite argumentative commentary by the people replying and that I must say is, again my opinion here, the reason for the silence.

Have you also taken the time to notice that the OP outside of one minor reply has been sitting back, probably eating popcorn, and enjoying the fun?

Edited to add......I see the OP has come back as I was replying to your comment here to make a "statement" . Guess I was wrong about the popcorn....

Kyle

Jul 15, 2008, 12:37

Ok what "serious legitimate questions" do you have regarding the police and law in Japan?
I would think that if a person was going to take a stance such as this they would instead of questioning the "bickering and silence" on this thread add their comments, knowledge, or opinions.
It's easy to point fingers in blaming others for their actions, and in all honesty the manner in which the OP was written to me at least was written in a manner to incite argumentative commentary by the people replying and that I must say is, again my opinion here, the reason for the silence.
Have you also taken the time to notice that the OP outside of one minor reply has been sitting back, probably eating popcorn, and enjoying the fun?
Edited to add......I see the OP has come back as I was replying to your comment here to make a "statement" . Guess I was wrong about the popcorn....

If I have nothing to say, seeing as how I neither live in the UK or reside in Japan, I just didn't want to throw in a thought that I had no first-hand knowledge on.

Here is my thought on the whole showing your gaijin card issue. I think that if they ask you for it, there should be no complaining you should just show it to them. In my eyes, it's just a matter of respecting your host while you're there. If that means you have to show them a few things of identification, big deal 20 seconds out of your life. You have to think they want to keep THEIR country safe and if that means checking people, so be it. We here in the U.S. do the same thing. Everyone profiles everyone, whether you want to admit it or not. It's a common practice that a mast majority or all earth's beings do multiple times a day.

I did not intend to cause a fight. I did not intend to make people think I was questioning their countries ways. If I did that in any way, I apologize.

Mars Man

Jul 15, 2008, 12:50

Not to worry, Kyle. At the moment I think we could say that you are not the cause of any fights. I do hope you now understand, however, that on the surface, much of what you had heard is incorrect. It might do good to do further research on that using more professional-like sources, however.

Like Mike Cash, in my 24 years here, I have never had any problems whatsoever. One big factor for that, I do reason, is a matter of attitude. My attitude has always been to first see those enforcing the law as fellow human beings...as someone is (until further evidence surfaces) there for my general well being. I'd say that'd help anywhere in the world, almost.

Emoni

Jul 15, 2008, 14:17

I think Kyle cleared up things fairly well.

As for the serious issues, what I'm referring to is a mix of dangerous half-truths, mixed with accurate data. For example the conviction rate is true, but whether "people with beards are targeted" and the like is another issue that has no real grounding. That sort of situation leads to fear and uncertainty, and it is only natural that people want to clarify. I know I still have many questions about instances that have occurred that led to certain "stories." I've seen things myself and know of stories from friends in Japan as well. There is nothing wrong with ask questions like this, and the reaction that has happened her is a bit discouraging.

As for an extra comment on what MarsMan said, attitude has a GREAT deal on how a situation can play itself out and I believe that goes along with sincerity. Both of these on a personal level along with cautiousness will most likely reduce your chances to any real unjust situations (and certainly just ones) with the police by an insanely high percentage.

At the same time, I think what was listed are common misconceptions that need to be considered individually in some way, both in their source, and their legitimacy(or lack thereof).

theAlphaDuck

Jul 15, 2008, 16:42

So does this mean that the UK police, even though it is the law to not be racist, is in fact racist? I get the feeling you are contradicting your opinions.

Of course they are!

iv'e traveled to many countries and some are worse than others....
i mean it's not THAT bad here....

just if you are a young black male...you are more likely to be stopped and searched than if your a young white male....ect.

regarding Japan tho

i think it is a bit dodge that magistrates can hand out death penalty...
and that the police are apparently corrupt

FrustratedDave

Jul 15, 2008, 17:13

Of course they are!
iv'e traveled to many countries and some are worse than others....
i mean it's not THAT bad here....
just if you are a young black male...you are more likely to be stopped and searched than if your a young white male....ect.
regarding Japan tho
i think it is a bit dodge that magistrates can hand out death penalty...
and that the police are apparently corrupt
Well they are starting the jury system very shortly if that makes everyone feel better.

Emoni

Jul 15, 2008, 20:22

Well they are starting the jury system very shortly if that makes everyone feel better.

While I don't trust judges either (which still remain in the new jury system btw), I have about the same faith in the Japanese general public as I do in the general public in the world. None.

However, I do think there are benefits to a jury system. It can be one of the few ways for the layman (aka general *****[seriously... this board censors m-o-r-o-n?!] on the street) to see the legal system. The more who see, the more who are exposed the more chance for things in general to improve or problems to be noticed. Of course... I am the same person that admits to trying to find a way to get myself pregnant to get out of my summons. This being hard since I'm a guy.

I will say one thing, while I have little faith in the United States legal system, from the classes I have taken and the information I have looked up in the past, the Japanese legal system scares the hell out of me.

caster51

Jul 15, 2008, 22:53

I will say one thing, while I have little faith in the United States legal system, from the classes I have taken and the information I have looked up in the past, the Japanese legal system scares the hell out of me.

at first, i dont understand that
what information?

it is as same as OP like kid's " my friend told me..."
dont you think so?
who can follow that?

Japanese legal system scares the hell out of me because my friend told me? or " I experienced "
as for a generalization, That is scared.
it is a big culture shock for me .

Emoni

Jul 16, 2008, 08:09

at first, i dont understand that
what information?
it is as same as OP like kid's " my friend told me..."
dont you think so?
who can follow that?
Japanese legal system scares the hell out of me because my friend told me? or " I experienced "
as for a generalization, That is scared.
it is a big culture shock for me .

#1 Insulting the original poster just because he was looking for facts based on information he heard from a friend is uncalled and more like the behavior that you accuse him of.

#2 Look up even the basic data concerning the Japanese legal system, the glaring 98+% conviction rate, the rate of confessions, the secretive death penalty system is ABSOLUTELY justification to raise an eyebrow and seek out more explanation if you are going to be inside the country.

KirinMan

Jul 16, 2008, 08:15

#2 Look up even the basic data concerning the Japanese legal system, the glaring 98+% conviction rate, the rate of confessions, the secretive death penalty system is ABSOLUTELY justification to raise an eyebrow and seek out more explanation if you are going to be inside the country
Mmm......I would say it is better than getting a bullet behind the ear 10 minutes after being convicted. Or getting hung before the trial even starts.

There are protections for the prisoners in the law that allows them to go through an appeals process before the sentence is carried out.

In my opinion Japan does not take the death penalty lightly. I dont see the problem with being secretive in that what "right" does a prisoner have to know the day and date of their execution?

Note here I am not stating my beliefs for or against capital punishment here!

Emoni

Jul 16, 2008, 11:37

Comparing third-world regimes to Japan's legal system is going to make anything look good. I was simply trying to present the argument that from those numbers, those statements alone, it is perfectly understandable why one would seek to clarify and find out more information on this subject.

Heck, I know I still want to find out more.

caster51

Jul 16, 2008, 14:23

http://www.debito.org/?p=1752
I am not a supporter of Debito, but the mp3 file would be the great answer for you, Kyle. And if you study Japanese, it is also a good study material for you to know how to speak Japanese humbly like the cop.
警官「外人登録証をおねがいします」
police; please show me your ID
有道「ボク日本人です」
i am a Japanese
警官「永住者の方ですか？」
are you a permanent resident?
有道「ボク日本人です」
I am a Japanese
警官「ハーフかなにか？」
are you a half Japanese?
有道「ボク日本人です」
I am a Japanese..

LOL...
it would be finished for 10 seconds...
What would happen in U.S.A.? this police is so kind..
if I was this police, I would arrest him LOL
Does a terrorist imitate this method in USA?

KirinMan

Jul 16, 2008, 14:53

http://www.debito.org/?p=1752
警官「外人登録証をおねがいします」
police; please show me your ID
有道「ボク日本人です」
i am a Japanese
警官「永住者の方ですか？」
are you a permanent resident?
有道「ボク日本人です」
I am a Japanese
警官「ハーフかなにか？」
are you a half Japanese?
有道「ボク日本人です」
I am a Japanese..
LOL...
it would be finished for 10 seconds...
What would happen in U.S.A.? this police is so kind..
if I was this police, I would arrest him LOL
Does a terrorist imitate this method in USA?
Out of 125,000,000 or so Japanese people living in Japan how many "look" like Dave?

I can not blame the police for their assumption that a foreign looking person, meaning someone like Dave is not Japanese. It is an easy mistake to make.

Maybe someday in the future when all race lines here get mushed to the point that everyone looks like someone from somewhere else things will change but until then it's just one of the things that people in my opinion need to learn to tolerate while living here.

There are times, at least to me anyway, and I do not personally know the man himself either, that I think that Dave goes out looking to get into situations where he can rant about the discrimination here in Japan.

He made the choice to take Japanese citizenship, he should have prepared himself for the bull crap as well.

orochi

Jul 16, 2008, 15:02

I can not blame the police for their assumption that a foreign looking person, meaning someone like Dave is not Japanese. It is an easy mistake to make.

No it's not. And there's no legal basis for tying appearance to nationality.

He made the choice to take Japanese citizenship, he should have prepared himself for the bull crap as well.

Before Japan started offering citizenship (which includes the same, full rights as those born here as citizens) to those who do not resemble "ethnic Japanese", then it should have been prepared. The laws are on the books. Cops messing up on the job don't justify anything.

Why are you making the victim out to be the offender?

caster51

Jul 16, 2008, 15:14

Why are you making the victim out to be the offender?

victim of what?

police just said " please show me your ID" very politely.
he was there for hooking police? a big catch LOL

orochi

Jul 16, 2008, 15:45

victim of what?
police just said " please show me your ID" very politely.
he was there for hooking police? a big catch LOL

Victim of racial profiling and unlawful police stops?

You can't be stopped for "looking foreign".

caster51

Jul 16, 2008, 16:06

Victim of racial profiling and unlawful police stops?

You can't be stopped for "looking foreign".

he just said " pleaese show me an ID"
what is a problem?

"looking foreign"???
even there are many japanese stopped by them.
just check out google

orochi

Jul 16, 2008, 16:10

he just said " pleaese show me an ID"

Are you familiar with the relevant laws?

caster51

Jul 16, 2008, 16:18

Are you familiar with the relevant laws?

whatever, I cooperate it with pleasure more than that because of 10 seconds

anyway. waht do you think" even there were many japanese stopped by them"

he is a Paranoid or lack of investigaion as an activist

you also beliebed 'One of my friends told me about this"

What is the purpose that he went to the airport and strolled in the airport?
to hook a policeman?
He is a suspicious person　obviously for police

orochi

Jul 16, 2008, 16:38

I was hoping we could discuss the law.
I guess not.

Emoni

Jul 16, 2008, 17:05

Victim of racial profiling and unlawful police stops?

You can't be stopped for "looking foreign".

I wasn't aware that racial profiling laws actually existed in Japan... could you expand on this a bit? I'm quite curious.

caster51

Jul 16, 2008, 17:25

I wasn't aware that racial profiling laws actually existed in Japan... could you expand on this a bit? I'm quite curious.

that is why debito won by trial about onsen in hokkaido

orochi

Jul 16, 2008, 18:06

I wasn't aware that racial profiling laws actually existed in Japan... could you expand on this a bit? I'm quite curious.

I didn't say there as a law against racial profiling.

Emoni

Jul 16, 2008, 19:34

Victim of racial profiling and unlawful police stops?

You can't be stopped for "looking foreign".

I guess I misunderstood what you meant by this then...

pipokun

Jul 16, 2008, 20:13

...
Maybe someday in the future when all race lines here get mushed to the point that everyone looks like someone from somewhere else things will change but until then it's just one of the things that people in my opinion need to learn to tolerate while living here.
....

Tolerate what?
The extremely humble speech like the cop?
Or being as loud as him enable you to be naturalized or get a permanent resident status?
He did not clearly mention his situation that he was seemingly waiting for something after going through the gate for a while, such as taking photos or preparing the voice recording or else.

Kyle, please remember that most cops are armed here, but it must be a big news if he/she fire a gun in the air and the head of police will definitely hold a press conference to explain why they shoot the cloud (not crowd).

Mike Cash

Jul 16, 2008, 20:22

that is why debito won by trial about onsen in hokkaido

Had he not been a citizen, it is doubtful he would have won.

FrustratedDave

Jul 16, 2008, 21:27

Tolerate what?
The extremely humble speech like the cop?
Or being as loud as him enable you to be naturalized or get a permanent resident status?
He did not clearly mention his situation that he was seemingly waiting for something after going through the gate for a while, such as taking photos or preparing the voice recording or else.
Kyle, please remember that most cops are armed here, but it must be a big news if he/she fire a gun in the air and the head of police will definitely hold a press conference to explain why they shoot the cloud (not crowd).
Pipokun I think Kirinman was stateing that until European looking Japanese citizens are in abundance, "we" who look not like Japanese have to tolerate the fact that we may be asked to show ID even if we were naturalised citizens. He is taking the same point of veiw as you.

I agree that what he(Dave) did was clearly bait the cop and could have resolved the situation in a few moments, but obviously he was there for a different agenda. I have to wonder how many times he walked through the gate before he was asked to show ID?

KirinMan

Jul 16, 2008, 21:34

No it's not. And there's no legal basis for tying appearance to nationality.

Before Japan started offering citizenship (which includes the same, full rights as those born here as citizens) to those who do not resemble "ethnic Japanese", then it should have been prepared. The laws are on the books. Cops messing up on the job don't justify anything.

Why are you making the victim out to be the offender?

First off who ever made the comment about any "legal basis"? Not me so please try to avoid putting words in my mouth. Thank you.

Next Japan doesnt "offer" citizenship, it accepts people or denies them that go through the application process, it may be semantics but it is a huge difference.

@ pipokun....

Dont take my post out of context please, taken in full text that portion alone that you quoted makes a point.

Also I'm not Kyle either.

orochi

Jul 16, 2008, 21:35

First off who ever made the comment about any "legal basis"? Not me so please try to avoid putting words in my mouth. Thank you.

So the law should be ignored and the cops allowed free rein to do as they please?

FrustratedDave

Jul 16, 2008, 21:42

So the law should be ignored and the cops allowed free rein to do as they please?
I thought it was the law that they had the right to ask foreigners to show their gaijin card? Maybe I was mistaken?

orochi

Jul 16, 2008, 22:23

I thought it was the law that they had the right to ask foreigners to show their gaijin card? Maybe I was mistaken?

If we're talking about the situation above, then gaijin card laws are irrelevant as the one being questioned was a Japanese citizen.

And as I mentioned above, there is no legal basis (or a standard for that matter) for judging nationality on appearance.

FrustratedDave

Jul 16, 2008, 22:40

If we're talking about the situation above, then gaijin card laws are irrelevant as the one being questioned was a Japanese citizen.
And as I mentioned above, there is no legal basis (or a standard for that matter) for judging nationality on appearance.
Now really think hard about this, a European looking person is claiming to be a Japanese citizen in a society were it is extremly, extremly rare that a European looking person is a Japanese citizen. Now if the police were doing checks on foreign people at that airport would it not be fair to assume that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck that it could infact be a duck? Why should the police officer believe him? Because he (Debito) said so?! Say it was someone overstaying their visa and they were trying to avoid showing their card, who knows what tricks some the overstayers pull. The cop had every right to be suspicious, but in the end he let him go. Now lets say that was not Debito and was criminal on the run for ,lets say robbery homicide. So now this guy gets on the train robs your wife and kills her on the spot. Who are you going to point fingers at ? the theif or the police for not doing their job? Why interfer with a job that is already made hard enough as it is (and don't go into the , not all foreigners are criminals talk. B/c if they saw a suspicious Japanese citizen they would ask them for and ID too.)

Like I said before , all it would have taken was him showing his drivers licence and it all would have been over in seconds.

pipokun

Jul 16, 2008, 22:40

So the law should be ignored and the cops allowed free rein to do as they please?

It is legal for cops here to stop and question (the worse case, search).

For KirinMan, Also I'm not Kyle either.
I know, so I pressed the enter key twice.

ASHIKAGA

Jul 16, 2008, 23:18

In the case of the caucasian Japanese citizen being asked to show an ID at a train station during the summit, while I do not blame the guy for being offended, I would probably tell him to just get over it. In order to deal with possible terrorism, racial profiling is done in many places. Imagine you are in charge of the security for an event like that and there are reports of previous attempted attacks on the world leaders in different parts of the world, and it just happens those attacks were committed by caucasians. What would you do?

I would be upset and offended as well if I were on the receiving end of racial profiling. However, I would also understand why it is being done and move on. I understand what caster has been saying : It only takes 10 seconds to pull out your ID. No big deal. I also understand what orochi who has been saying (sorry if I am mistaken) : It is a matter of principle.

In the end, I'd say it is a necessary evil.

Now, the being asked for the foreigner card even though you are a Japanese citizen part.

Let's say I became a citizen in a country where the majority of its citizens look different from me. Someone presumes that I am a foreigner based on the fact that I look different (and perhaps I have a foreign accent). Would I go, "How dare you to assume that I am a foreigner just because of the way I look/sound! ". No, I would not. I would simply explain to them my situation, and if that someone happens to be a police officer and wants to see an ID, I'd show it to her/him. As people like me increase in number in that country, this sort of thing will happen less and less, but for now, I would just deal with it and even try to be a nice guy and thank that officer for doing her/his job.

Pachipro

Jul 17, 2008, 00:27

OK, I have been following this post with interest since it started and, as far as the OP post is concerned and the link he posted, I'd have to say that someone has a grudge against the Japanese police for some reason as the website has not been updated, shows no authorship or reason for posting, and just seems to be a rant of some kind.

Of all the people answering this post, and who claim to know so much about the Japanese legal system based on heresay, how many can say they have actually been through the Japanese justice system from arrest to trial and conviction to speak with any authority?? I would guess no one or no one who has the balls to actually admit it and give their experience.

Lets' set the record straight. I have been through the system twice! Once for not have my gaijin card on my person and once for getting busted at my home with an illegal substance (0.025 gms of hashish. A miniscule amount!)

In the case of not not having my gaijin card on my person, I was not arrested, but was questioned severely for a few days and had to appear before a judge. You can read all about the details here (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20256). And, in the 16 years Iof lived in Japan, I was asked for my gaijin card maybe 4 times. It was just that one time that I didn't have it on my person that I suffered for it.

In the case of being busted, I was presented with a search warrant and the police were as polite as could be. Since I knew they would tear my apartment apart, I presented them with what they were looking for. I was arrested and taken away, but since I had my own private school and they were in plain clothes I was not handcuffed when we left the building as it was their suggestion not to "alarm the neighbors". Also, I guess they believed me as they did not search my home after they confirmed through portable lab analysis that it was indeed an illegal substance.

My wife was also arrested although she was completely innocent. My wife was held for 5 days and I was held for 14. No charges were pressed against my wife, but after 2 weeks I was charged and allowed to post bail.

Throughout the whole process which consisted of much interrogation as to the source and who else was using I signed a confession indicating that the "stuff" was mine. Also, throughout the whole process the police were always kind and respectful, as were the guards in the jail in Yokohama where I was held. Heck, they even let us smoke cigarettes and listen to the ball games at night. However, they were strict and you had better do as you were told and respect them back. I shared in a cell with another prisoner and had absolutely no problems with him or the guards.

We were fed three meals a day, allowed three baths a week., and were allowed to walk around and smoke if we chose to do so for two 15 min beaks per day. The guards even alloed us to smoke in our cells at night if we couldn't sleep. Other than that we were in our cells unless called for interrogation. Up at 7am and lights out at 10pm There was a library with books in Japanese, English, and French and we were allowed to read them in our cells even if we couldn't sleep at night.

No one was beaten or abused and the police kept their word in keeping my name out of the newspaper if I cooperated as I would've lost my school completely if my name was in the papers. They knew that and used it as a "carrot" to get me to be cooperative and honest. I sometimes wonder if I would've been treated as well in the US for such a "serious crime".

After indictment by the prosecutor I was allowed to post bail and was released. I continued with my school after telling them a "lie" that my father had fallen ill and I had to leave in a hurry.

The trial was held about six months later and I was convicted of posession and sentenced to 7 years hard labor, suspended for 3 years.

Since the three judges believed my sincere apology for breaking their law and promising them I would not do it again, I was allowed to stay in country and was not deported. Maybe it was because I had a Japanese wife. I do not know. But I knew of three other single people who were busted (2 people from the UK and one from the US) who were deported and forbidden to return for 10 years. I continued with my school and no one even knew I was busted. The Japanese police did indeed keep their word and I have been back to Japan once or twice a year since I left in 1988 and had no problems entering.

Now, whether abuses by the police occur outside of what I experienced I do not know, but I guess it does here and there as it does in any country, even here in the US. However, in my case, I have nothing but praise for the Japanese police for the way I was treated in both instances. They were polite, firm, and civil and, being in a foreign country, I expected the worse from all the "horror" stories I had heard.

However, I do believe that if one is arrogant and fights the Japanese police, thinking they have 'rights', they will be in for a shock, because in Japan, when one is arrested, you have no rights, and that includes a phone call to relatives to let them know what happened to you! Fight them and be uncooperative and you may just feel their boot.

If you are innocent do not sign any confession as they have to let you go after about 25 odd days without no proof or evidence. One must remember that they are in a foreign country and subject to their laws no matter how arcane they may seem to us in the west. Break the law and you suffer the consequences.

My case may be rare, but I tend to believe it is the norm as I never experienced, or heard from others arrested, any of the abuses mentioned in the OP. However, as I said, it does not mean they don't exist.

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 10:09

Now if the police were doing checks on foreign people at that airport would it not be fair to assume that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck that it could infact be a duck?
"Fair" or not, there is no legal basis. It's unlawful action on the part of the police officer. I don't think this should be ignored.
Why should the police officer believe him? Because he (Debito) said so?!
Yes. As soon as the person in question states they are Japanese, there is no lawful basis to pursue further questioning or demands for ID. The law is the law.
The cop had every right to be suspicious, but in the end he let him go.
Based on what? Certainly not the law. Should we allow cops free rein and ignore law and police regulation?
B/c if they saw a suspicious Japanese citizen they would ask them for and ID too.)
Debito IS a Japanese citizen. I have seen or heard no evidence that he was acting suspicious. If he was, then the police would have the right to ask. But he was approached and asked for his alien card. When asked why, "You looked foreign" was the answer. As I said, the officer fumbled.
You also mentioned racial profiling being used to efficiently capture a suspect. Let's say that a report goes out that a black-haired Caucasian man committed robbery. Stopping black-haired Caucasian men near the scene of the crime for investigation would make sense here. But there was no crime. There was no suspect being searched for. So your example here is sadly irrelevant.
Like I said before , all it would have taken was him showing his drivers licence and it all would have been over in seconds.
Or the police officer could have followed the law and police regulation. Not everybody likes being treated like second-class residents, but I think we have to agree to disagree here.
Also, driver's licenses don't include your honseki anymore, so they cannot be used to prove nationality. Japanese citizens are NOT required by law to carry identification. So how can they be legally required to show it?
It is legal for cops here to stop and question (the worse case, search).
Only when there is reasonable cause to assume that the party in question committed a crime, is in the midst of committing a crime, or may commit a crime.
警察官職務執行法　第二条　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知っていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。
racial profiling is done in many places
That doesn't justify it being done here.
Imagine you are in charge of the security for an event like that and there are reports of previous attempted attacks on the world leaders in different parts of the world, and it just happens those attacks were committed by caucasians. What would you do?
That's a straw man. There was no threat. There was no suspect. People were simply being stopped. And most of those being stopped were Caucasian or otherwise "non-Japanese" in appearance.. And the only threat made was done so by a Japanese citizen (http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/man-arrested-for-making-bomb-threat-at-chitose-airport). They certainly would have caught him with their cunning tactics.

FrustratedDave

Jul 17, 2008, 11:58

"Fair" or not, there is no legal basis. It's unlawful action on the part of the police officer. I don't think this should be ignored.
.....Yes. As soon as the person in question states they are Japanese, there is no lawful basis to pursue further questioning or demands for ID. The law is the law.
.....Based on what? Certainly not the law. Should we allow cops free rein and ignore law and police regulation?
Orochi, you quoted the law so I will respond to that. 警察官職務執行法第二条　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知っていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。In response to the bold writting. Now law is open for interpretaion so nothing is set in stone, but that sentence in bold gives the police the right to question Daves response. "rationaly thinking" "合理的に" in Japan today European looking Japanese are very , very rare. So the police officer naturally has to question the fact to whether indeed this foreign looking person is infact a Japanese citizen. The cold hard facts are that citzens of Japan are 99% asian looking(I have no data, but you get the idea). So now you may ask what suspicsious activity was he doing? Again from a rational stand point it could have been percieved that he was trying to avoid not being able to produce any sort of documentation that that person was staying in Japan illegaly. So I say the officer had leagl basis to question him.
Debito IS a Japanese citizen. I have seen or heard no evidence that he was acting suspicious. If he was, then the police would have the right to ask. But he was approached and asked for his alien card. When asked why, "You looked foreign" was the answer. As I said, the officer fumbled.
Like I said before ,the pure fact that him saying he was Japanese could be interpreted as a suspicious answer. Unfortunately or fortunately which ever way you look at it, some of us foreingers do not look asian which makes identifing foreigners a little eaiser. Is this racial profiling? I don't know
You also mentioned racial profiling being used to efficiently capture a suspect. Let's say that a report goes out that a black-haired Caucasian man committed robbery. Stopping black-haired Caucasian men near the scene of the crime for investigation would make sense here. But there was no crime. There was no suspect being searched for. So your example here is sadly irrelevant.
.....Only when there is reasonable cause to assume that the party in question committed a crime, is in the midst of committing a crime, or may commit a crime.
That doesn't justify it being done here. Like I said before, he could have been a overstayer, which police are always on the look out for.
Or the police officer could have followed the law and police regulation. Not everybody likes being treated like second-class residents, but I think we have to agree to disagree here.
Also, driver's licenses don't include your honseki anymore, so they cannot be used to prove nationality. Japanese citizens are NOT required by law to carry identification. So how can they be legally required to show it?
Like someone else said earlier, until there are enough people who look european and are Japanese, this is some thing you are going to have put up with. And I am not so sure that this constitutes being treated like a second class citizen though???
As for the licence ,it is all on an IC chip so they will be able to check that way.

Chidoriashi

Jul 17, 2008, 12:10

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 13:26

So the police officer naturally has to question the fact to whether indeed this foreign looking person is infact a Japanese citizen.

You're putting the cart before the horse, though.
Before he was even approached by the officer, there had to be a rationally-based reason to stop him.

JimmySeal

Jul 17, 2008, 13:59

Like I said before, he could have been a overstayer, which police are always on the look out for.

The existence of a crime that only foreigners can commit should not give police carte blanche to stop any foreign(-looking) person as they so choose because they might be overstaying their visa. Why not stop random people on the street at all hours of the day and check them for concealed weapons? That's a crime everyone can commit.

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 14:11

FrustratedDave

Jul 17, 2008, 14:14

You're putting the cart before the horse, though.
Before he was even approached by the officer, there had to be a rationally-based reason to stop him.
Again , there is the G8 in town so there could be a number of reasons the police could use to ask him to show it, all with reasonable intent.

Look ,I don't agree with the fact that if they were only asking foreigners to show ID, if they were going to do it it should be across the board. But from the perspective of whether they(police) were breaking the law by asking him, by simple definition no they weren't. The racial profiling is a whole different kettle of fish in my book.

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 14:15

Again , there is the G8 in town so there could be a number of reasons the police could use to ask him to show it, all with reasonable intent.

Are you aware of what happened in this situation? As I mentioned before, the police officer told him that he was stopped because he "looked foreign". It's on tape. Listen to it yourself.

Is that reasonable grounds to stop someone?
Keep in mind that the only acts of terrorism on Japanese soil have been committed by Japanese citizens.

ASHIKAGA

Jul 17, 2008, 15:13

The following comment is about the specific incident documented in the site by "debito" that someone had provided a link to earlier.

G8 Summit in town. Reports of possible demonstrations by Black Bloc. Stopping every single person at an airport not logistically feasible. Stop those fit the profile.

Is it wrong? Yes, it is. Is it necessary in certain circumstances? Sadly, yes.

If you can suggest a better way, please do. I am sure many people all over the world would really appreciate that.

These people's job is to PREVENT things from happening. The police officer on the tape sounds unconfortable and apologetic about having to do what he was doing. However, instead of telling debito that it was a mistake on his part and will not happen again, he does tell debito to expect the possibility of being stopped again while the summit is going on. Why? Because there is a reason behind what he is doing. He is not stopping foreign-looking people because he doesn't like "outsiders". Should you take offence? Sure, why not? Nobody likes to be singled out just because you look a certain way. Should you see the bigger picture and let it go? I would.

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 15:34

Should you see the bigger picture and let it go? I would.

I'm not trying to attack you personally when I say this, but it's a mindset like this that keeps progress from happening. If you don't stand up for your own rights, who will? Nobody.

caster51

Jul 17, 2008, 16:27

Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act

i think Japan should do same...

By LANCE BRAMAN
Sano, Tochigi

Regarding Debito Arudou's July 1 Just Be Cause column, "July forecast: rough with ID checks mainly in the north": Arudou claims he was stopped at Chitose Airport (Sapporo) last month merely for being "Caucasian." Yet, on his own Web site, Arudou admitted that he had "hung around" and had a tape recorder already recording! He posted photos of the police that he took from the shelter of the baggage-claim area. In other words, he was not some "innocent pedestrian" grabbed by an overzealous policeman; he was fishing for trouble.

It is a shame that Arudou chooses to further distort the facts by claiming that Japanese police enjoy "unfettered power" -- even though the police have been repeatedly and increasingly called to task by the courts -- and that there is "insufficient media scrutiny." The media in Japan regularly champion the cause of standing up to police and governmental excesses. If there is insufficient media scrutiny, it is of Arudou's outlandish claims.

Every Group of Eight summit in recent memory has had problems with protesters and complaints of overzealous police. Last year's summit in Germany had more than 16,000 officers and 1,000 troops mobilized, and a 12-km wall built around the town. Police detained more than 1,000 protesters and expelled hundreds. Dozens were detained the previous year in Russia, hundreds the year before in Britain, which also used a special law to conduct random stops and personal searches.

Perhaps these countries as well should be banned from hosting international events. Or perhaps it might behoove individuals to act like responsible adults and not loiter around airports acting suspiciously by taking pictures of police during a time of increased security.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/rc20080706a3.html
I was relieved there was a foreigner who has a common sense and is truthful in Japan.
http://www.debito.org/?p=1813
is he doing a such things as just his self-satisfaction ?

it is called "hooking policeman incident at chitose"
:wave:

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 16:49

it is called "hooking policeman incident at chitose"

The police officer approached him.
Do you have any knowledge of this incident?
All it looks like you're doing is acting on a personal grudge.

caster51

Jul 17, 2008, 17:14

The police officer approached him.

why was he there?
because he was strolling to hook them:p

if someone is looking for a cute girl to hooking and strolling at airport, it would be easy to understand he was....
Or, did it happen by chance?

All it looks like you're doing is acting on a personal grudge

??
The activist is an object criticized as much as he does.

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 17:15

because he was strolling to hook them:p
why was he there?

It's an airport. Why do you think he was there?
He got off a plane, went to pick up his luggage, and was approached.
End of story.

ASHIKAGA

Jul 17, 2008, 17:20

why was he there?
because he was strolling to hook them:p

It doesn't really matter if he was, like you say, trying to "hook" the police.
The fact is they DID stop him and admitted that he was stopped because he looked foreign.

What we are talking about here is the action of the police itself.

FrustratedDave

Jul 17, 2008, 17:38

The existence of a crime that only foreigners can commit should not give police carte blanche to stop any foreign(-looking) person as they so choose because they might be overstaying their visa. Why not stop random people on the street at all hours of the day and check them for concealed weapons? That's a crime everyone can commit.I agree they should not have the right to do what you are saying, but are they really doing that?
Are you aware of what happened in this situation? As I mentioned before, the police officer told him that he was stopped because he "looked foreign". It's on tape. Listen to it yourself.
Is that reasonable grounds to stop someone?
Keep in mind that the only acts of terrorism on Japanese soil have been committed by Japanese citizens.
In Akihabara and Shinjuku, there are random bag searches going on. It's pretty pathetic.
And most foreigners living in Japan are Korean or Chinese (relatively indistinguishable from Japanese in appearance). What are you going to do about them, FrustratedDave? Based on numbers, they're probably going to contain the most numerous overstayers as well. Do we set up roadblocks and stop everybody who goes through? What do we do when a Japanese national, who as I mentioned is not required by law to carry any identification, proclaims that they are Japanese? Do we haul them off to prison until a family member shows up with proof?
No ,you are right there is no base to check on the grounds of just being a foreigner. But just b/c one cop obviously messed up what he was trying to say, does not mean the whole police force was doing what is being said here. For all we know Dave could have been acting suspiciously around them just so he could be picked up and questioned. Obviously that is speculation, but you have to wonder, he was hanging around the exit taking photos and what ever else. I would love to know how many times he went through before being asked.
As for crimes commited by foreigners, chinese have the highest percentage and the most of the top spots are filled by other asian countries amoung others.( By no means am I trying to make this racial, just stating the facts) So you have to ask yourself why would the police be racial profiling on European or any other obviously foreign looking person? What do they have to gain from it? I just don't see the police as having predjudicial intents, or to the extent that some people are saying. Remember it is the G8 summit.

caster51

Jul 17, 2008, 17:54

It doesn't really matter if he was, like you say, trying to "hook" the police.
The fact is they DID stop him and admitted that he was stopped because he looked foreign.
What we are talking about here is the action of the police itself.
at first a police said ' can you speak Japanese. please show me an alien registration card because you looked foreign.
debit said why asked me.
police said " I am asking everybody..
debito said " I was looking at it for long time.
debito said why dont you ask other asian guy
a police said " you were looked foreign.
until that, a police never said " please show me your ID because looked foreign
a police said alien registration card because he looked foreign
a police never said " only white ppl are cheked"
if a police asked a Japanese looked, he would say "please show me your driver licence". what is wrong?
anyway, police said the purpose very polietly as possible as he can... G8
" I make you a trouble. however, the G8 is held. ....

ASHIKAGA

Jul 17, 2008, 18:13

I'd still say the police's action was a reaction to the reports of Black Blocing (or blocking) activities in Europe and in the US.

I cannot even try to describe a typical person who is likely to be involved in such activities but I would not be surprised "caucasian" was one of the descriptions the police came up with. Wether they were right in that assumption or not, I don't know.

Again, I am not for racial profiling. It is just that they have to do it in certain circumstances and I understand that.

pipokun

Jul 17, 2008, 19:47

ARUDOU: Uh, sorry, but I have been watching you for quite some time, and you haven’t confirmed anyone’s identity with anyone at all thus far.

有道：えーと、すみませんが、ずっと見ていたんですけれども、一人も、今までは確認しなかったですね。

I don't know how rational it is that someone, Japanese or not, has been watching the cop for quite some time at the airport on the special occasion.

orochi finds the cop unreasonable, though.

*snip*
The bike check is a bit tricky, for the next (very humble) counter argument by cops (only from my past personal experiences) must be something like, "well, we have many bicycle thefts around here. I highly appreciate your cooperation". Just one minute when you show off the bike registration, but it must be quite some time when you challenge the reasonableness.

When I was 14 or 15, it was interesting to do the latter, now I become more practical to choose the 1 minute.

KirinMan

Jul 17, 2008, 20:47

You know from reading this thread I see/think that there are people here that just want to find the police guilty of something.

They are doing their job and like I wrote previously in a country as large as Japan is the number of citizens that look like Dave are extremely slim.

I also think that there are people here that are overly sensitive to anything the police do, right or wrong.

orochi

Jul 17, 2008, 21:24

You know from reading this thread I see/think that there are people here that just want to find the police guilty of something.

Who are you referring to? And on what basis?
Trolling will get you nowhere.

They are doing their job and like I wrote previously in a country as large as Japan is the number of citizens that look like Dave are extremely slim. I also think that there are people here that are overly sensitive to anything the police do, right or wrong.

So what if they are "doing their job"? They are doing it on my tax dollars and yours. If there's room for improvement, it needs to be made. If they don't follow their own regulations, then something needs to be done.

You think some people are overly sensitive. The way I see it is that some people are apathetic. For people who are only living here a couple years or just messing around after college, that can make some sense. Others are here for the long term, have families, and can't stand the thought of their family and friends facing the same problems they had to. The apathetic can stay quite and do what they want. That's fine. But they don't need to get huffy when people who care stand up and do something.

Pachipro

Jul 17, 2008, 23:02

Pachipro> I have a question. You said you were sentenced to 7 years hard labor, but suspended for 3 years? Forgive my ignorance, but can you explain what that means? Did you go to prison for a while?
I know laws are very strict here for drugs etc... but for such a small amount and for all of your willful compliance... it seems like quite a severe sentence.

No I did not go to prison. The suspended sentence ment that if I was clean for three years and did not get arrested again, I would not have to serve the sentence. Also, there was no period of probation, nor did I have to report anywhere or to anyone.

The laws were, and probably still are, very strict and they do not take it lightly even in the case of a joint of marajuana. Yes the sentence was quite severe because I spoke TOO MUCH of my personal feelings to the prosecutor before being indicted and it was used against me. In her words (yes her), she said that I had no idea as to the severe harm that hash and marajuana could to do me and that, again in her words, I may be "addicted" and never get over it and would probably use it again.

As in America, the same holds true in Japan, "Anything you say, can and will be used against you in a court of law". Therefore if you ever are arrested, keep your mouth shut, tell the truth about what you were arrested or being questioned for, but don't offer anything else like, "How long have you smoked this stuff?" Answer: "Oh about 5 years!" Question: "Do you think it is addicting?" Answer: "No, I believe it is safer than drinking alcohol" Wrong answers! It was my fault I received such a harsh sentence. Luckily the judges had mercy on me and believed my apology.

It's best to play their game and give them the answers they want to hear and not what you really believe.

KirinMan

Jul 18, 2008, 06:06

Who are you referring to? And on what basis?
Trolling will get you nowhere.
Dude do you think I just fell out of a tree? Nice try I'll give you a few points for style.
So what if they are "doing their job"? They are doing it on my tax dollars and yours. If there's room for improvement, it needs to be made. If they don't follow their own regulations, then something needs to be done.

First off it isnt my tax $$$$ it's my tax ￥￥￥￥￥.
Next, room for improvement? By whose standards? By whose laws? These laws and police have managed to keep this country relatively crime free for the past 60 plus years or so. Doesnt seem to be too bad to me.

Sure improvements are probably in order, but what job doesnt have a need for them. but heres the key they have to be done the Japanese way and they shouldnt be influenced by people discussing their gripes on an internet forum either.

This is funny though in a sick way, people are willing to complain and moan about their relative safety here in Japan and are willing to complain about the people that make it so and want them to change, but without realizing that probably along with that change will come more crime, all in the name of being PC.

I'll take these minor inconveniences vs a further rise in crime anyday.

You think some people are overly sensitive. The way I see it is that some people are apathetic. For people who are only living here a couple years or just messing around after college, that can make some sense.

Yeah I do think they are overly sensitive, it shows in their misunderstanding of the culture and the methods of the police here.

Apathetic? You missed the one about the people that support the police and their non-evasive way of handling things, that is until you get on their radar screen for one reason or another.

Others are here for the long term, have families, and can't stand the thought of their family and friends facing the same problems they had to. The apathetic can stay quite and do what they want. That's fine. But they don't need to get huffy when people who care stand up and do something.

Oh geez, sounds a bit overly dramatic here. I have found through experience that people create their own situations and the key is dont put yourself into situations where you could get into trouble.

There are exceptions to every rule as well.

Oh and lastly here; If I was the cop that stopped Dave I probably would have done the same thing, and I personally feel while Dave may be doing some decent work in brining awareness to others about issues here in Japan he comes across to me as having this huge mountain of a chip on his shoulder and is always willing to go the extra yard to blow his horn about it.

Hell if someone is so butt ugly hurt about the issue they have another option too......leave.

Chidoriashi

Jul 18, 2008, 09:59

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 10:57

Dude do you think I just fell out of a tree? Nice try I'll give you a few points for style.

They were trolling remarks. Do you have anything of substance to add on the unnamed people who just want to find somebody guilty of something? Back the comments up or don't bring them up at all.

Next, room for improvement? By whose standards? By whose laws?

Japanese law. Did you even read the law that I posted?

I'll take these minor inconveniences vs a further rise in crime anyday.

As Chidoriashi mentioned, do you have any statistical information to back up the connection between random police questioning and a decrease in crime / increase in safety?

Yeah I do think they are overly sensitive, it shows in their misunderstanding of the culture and the methods of the police here.

Who is "they"? What sort of misunderstanding?

I have found through experience that people create their own situations and the key is dont put yourself into situations where you could get into trouble.

We aren't talking about people who "put themselves in situations". Why do you keep pulling out straw men?

Hell if someone is so butt ugly hurt about the issue they have another option too......leave.

Life isn't that easy. People have jobs they can't leave. Mortgages they have to pay off. Families to support. Children to feed. Maybe you can just stand up and walk away, but some people can't.

Emoni

Jul 18, 2008, 13:53

Very, VERY well said Orochi. I'm finding you responses and information in you include one of the main reasons I keep checking this thread.

caster51

Jul 18, 2008, 17:38

Life isn't that easy. People have jobs they can't leave. Mortgages they have to pay off. Families to support. Children to feed. Maybe you can just stand up and walk away, but some people can't

at least, ppl should know about that before...
it sonuds a poor excuse..
if you choose it, dont cry..
if you cry, leave... I think it is very simple

KirinMan

Jul 18, 2008, 17:59

They were trolling remarks. Do you have anything of substance to add on the unnamed people who just want to find somebody guilty of something? Back the comments up or don't bring them up at all.

I was speaking in generalities, I guess I underestimated you being able to follow that. Sorry my bad!

As Chidoriashi mentioned, do you have any statistical information to back up the connection between random police questioning and a decrease in crime / increase in safety?

Sorry I am not a "google-commando". I will reply to Chidoriashi later, then you can get your answer as well.

Who is "they"? What sort of misunderstanding?

People who ***** about the police for anything they do that makes them stick out, or feel like they are being selected because they are a foreigner.

We aren't talking about people who "put themselves in situations". Why do you keep pulling out straw men?

Really? Go back and read the parts about Dave. The discussion has taken many turns.

Life isn't that easy. People have jobs they can't leave. Mortgages they have to pay off. Families to support. Children to feed. Maybe you can just stand up and walk away, but some people can't.
Never said I could or couldnt, but thanks for making a point here, if they are in a situation where they can not leave then they had better learn to work within the system to figure out ways to improve their situation.

It all starts with education and information. Educating people usually is the first step to removing ignorant behavior and responses.

And police are people too.

Otenba

Jul 18, 2008, 18:59

In defence of the Japanese police: in each and every country, a fair deal of cops is nothing but a bunch of corrupted swines who are mostly after money or venting their issues on the weak more than justice and people's safety. EVERY country.

Take this ever so peaceful Belgium for example. Those tyrants arrested me for having pink hair. There was nothing else about my look or behavior, that made me different from everyone else at that party, and unlike me, many others did drugs which you could smell miles against the wind. For legally colored hair, they violently dragged me off the party ground (although I didn't resist at all), put me in handcuffs and tore my clothes off me in a cell, even insulted and threatened me. They also broke and entered without a warrant, to collect a tax that does not apply to me. I have also seen them threaten to beat up my 19-year-old friend for the cheeky remark "You should try (tightrope walking) too, it's fun" when they were harrassing tightrope walkers because their rope apparantly poses a greater threat than the loose Pitbull 10 yards further, which they didn't pay attention to at all while we were very much concerned. And did I mention seeing them hop in the brothels in Northern Brussels every now and then, alone and with a very happy face? For some reason those brothels have not been shut down despite the fact that illegal 16-year-old children were forced to work there... Hm. Strange.

Also, I am tattooed in a visible place and I tend to walk around like gangsta. Despite that, the Japanese police have never so much as looked at me. I can walk into a koban and ask for directions without worries of staying there longer than expected. At Narita airport, security went through my luggage in search for drugs, probably because of my tattoo and the hemp leaf necklace, but that's all.

So while I'm more than willing to believe any bad story about any police unit anywhere in the world, I also want to believe that that is not standard procedure as enforced by law.

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 19:33

at least, ppl should know about that before...
it sonuds a poor excuse..
if you choose it, dont cry..
if you cry, leave... I think it is very simple

You're adding absolutely nothing to this conversation.

pipokun

Jul 18, 2008, 19:42

I don't know how rational it is that someone, Japanese or not, has been watching the cop for quite some time at the airport on the special occasion.
orochi finds the cop unreasonable, though.

orochi, please answer my simple question who you think is more reasonable in the Debito situation, the cop or Debito.

And don't worry, there is always the way to file a lawsuit against the cop's ill treatment. Maybe in the court, we will come to know how long was what he meant "watching the cop for quite some time".

Go for Debito!

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 19:56

orochi, please answer my simple question who you think is more reasonable in the Debito situation, the cop or Debito.

Phrase your question in a way that I can answer.
Reasonable about what?

pipokun

Jul 18, 2008, 20:32

Phrase your question in a way that I can answer.
Reasonable about what?

The cop action, to stop & question someone, was reasonable based on the law as you described above, or not.

If he and you still think it quite offensive even after the cop's kind apology, just support Debito to file a lawsuit.

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 20:38

Debito filing a lawsuit has nothing at all to do with my judgment. That point is irrelevant to this discussion. I hope everybody realizes this.

As to whether or not the stop was warranted, I would say no. And that's based on the content of the audio recording. From what the cop said, Debito was stopped "because he looked foreign".

pipokun

Jul 18, 2008, 20:45

ARUDOU: Uh, sorry, but I have been watching you for quite some time, and you haven’t confirmed anyone’s identity with anyone at all thus far.

有道：えーと、すみませんが、ずっと見ていたんですけれども、一人も、今までは確認しなかったですね。

So you think his situation, watching the cop for quite some time (taking photos, and etc.), is also reasonable?

it may be reasonable that there is no law, "don't stare at cops", though...
(actually, the staring is a sort of minor offense under some situations, but I don't think we need to discuss it here)

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 20:48

That's what Debito said. We don't know how long it was, either. And the cop never said once that Debito was engaging in suspicious activity.
Dare I say strawman?

KirinMan

Jul 18, 2008, 20:53

As to whether or not the stop was warranted, I would say no. And that's based on the content of the audio recording. From what the cop said, Debito was stopped "because he looked foreign".

So? I am as foreign looking as just about anyone can get here. I dont have a problem with it either.

I am not overly sensitive to the police here stopping foreigners based upon their looks. I personally have been the victim of a crime committed by a "foreign" person and I am gratefull to the police here for first off taking it seriously, and secondly not just looking at it as a crime of foreigner against foreigner, but taking the time and effort to solving the issue based upon the fact that it was a crime.

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 20:57

Thank you for your personal anecdote. Let us know when it relates to the discussion.

KirinMan

Jul 18, 2008, 21:04

KirinMan> This is a little bit off the topic. But I don't believe that Japan being a safe-low crime country has even half to do with the police doing their job. Crime any country is much more complicated than a matter of the police just doing their job. Do they contribute? Of course... but giving them all the credit for Japan's safety I think is a vast overstatement.

Sure there are cultural aspects to be considered as well.

I agree that crime and the prevention of it depends not only upon the the police but upon an individuals perception of either getting caught for committing a crime or getting away with it.

I give more credit to the low crime rate here to the citizens and their sense of community than just to the police, although they also play a part in the over all equation in my opinion.

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 21:06

I give more credit to the low crime rate here to the citizens and their sense of community than just to the police, although they also play a part in the over all equation in my opinion.

Did you just finish reading Chrysanthemum and the Sword?

KirinMan

Jul 18, 2008, 21:08

Thank you for your personal anecdote. Let us know when it relates to the discussion.
It also in part stems from the fact that my father in law is a retired detective of the Japanese police, and that a number of very close friends and aquaintances are active police, dectectives, and guards in a Japanese prison.

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 21:09

That still adds nothing.
If you can convince them to post, it would be impressive, though.

pipokun

Jul 18, 2008, 21:22

That's what Debito said. We don't know how long it was, either. And the cop never said once that Debito was engaging in suspicious activity.
Dare I say strawman?

He clearly said that he supported the anti-terror measures by himself. Only Debito knows the reason why he would not have said to the cop that he was a naturalized citizen who supports the measures first, not playing the why, why, why-game.
He is a fluent speaker of Japanese, but I cannot say his level is so perfect that ordinary cops or people will tell if he is a tourist, permanent resident or Japanese.
If you are a tourist/permanet resident, your ID should be shown to the police as required.
If you are a Japanese, esp., those who are against any forms of terrors, you don't lose much even you show your ID in the special occasion.

I am not a frequent bicycle rider, but I don't bother to show off even my driver's license when I go through the once or twice/a year bike check after I hear the cops saying that the safety around the city worsens (of course, this is more practical reason for me).

KirinMan

Jul 18, 2008, 21:26

Did you just finish reading Chrysanthemum and the Sword?

No I can not say I have. However thanks for the suggestion, I will be ordering it from Amazon shortly.....might learn something too!

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 21:27

He is a fluent speaker of Japanese, but I cannot say his level is so perfect that ordinary cops or people will tell if he is a tourist, permanent resident or Japanese.

There is no legal basis for defining nationality based on language ability.
What about 帰国子女, people who are 100% Japanese but raised overseas and may lack in language ability? Would you put them up against the same discrimination? By the way, this point is a strawman as well, and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

If you are a tourist/permanet resident, your ID should be shown to the police as required.

But how does the officer determine whether or not the person in question is a tourist or permanent resident? Based on skin color? That is frightening--and illegal.

If you are a Japanese, esp., those who are against any forms of terrors, you don't lose much even you show your ID in the special occasion.

You lose your privacy. You lose your rights as promised by the law.
I see you're apathetic and simply "don't care". And that's fine. You're afforded that right by the same laws you disagree with above. But calm down when other people stand up for their rights.

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 21:34

No I can not say I have. However thanks for the suggestion, I will be ordering it from Amazon shortly.....might learn something too!

No, you might want to stay away.

pipokun

Jul 18, 2008, 21:48

There is no legal basis for defining nationality based on language ability.
What about 帰国子女, people who are 100% Japanese but raised overseas and may lack in language ability? Would you put them up against the same discrimination? By the way, this point is a strawman as well, and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
But how does the officer determine whether or not the person in question is a tourist or permanent resident? Based on skin color? That is frightening--and illegal.
You lose your privacy. You lose your rights as promised by the law.
I see you're apathetic and simply "don't care". And that's fine. You're afforded that right by the same laws you disagree with above. But calm down when other people stand up for their rights.

It is just a requirement to carry your IDs if you are not Japanese.
And this is nothing special in other countries.

About the 帰国子女, she was not the one, but I posted somewhere here that a poor girl had to staye in police for a night without telling a word. I don't know her political orientation, but she should have said something.

You mean, the privacy means the ones registered by the governments such as driver's license? It is not apathy of mine, but a small contribution to my community like Debito has.

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 21:52

It is just a requirement to carry your IDs if you are not Japanese.

I never said it wasn't.

And this is nothing special in other countries.

Others countries don't matter. We are talking about Japan. Please please please stop bringing up straw men.

she was not the one, but I posted somewhere here that a poor girl had to staye in police for a night without telling a word. I don't know her political orientation, but she should have said something.

What does someone's financial or political status have to do with her being detained?
I am honestly confused. I am guessing this is another straw man, though, so don't feel like you have to pursue the argument.

KirinMan

Jul 18, 2008, 22:02

No, you might want to stay away.
And why is that?...................

ASHIKAGA

Jul 18, 2008, 23:13

We all have to understand this particular episode between debito and the police at the airport is different from a foreigner/someone who look foreign getting stopped and questioned while riding her/his bike. We should not confuse the two.

If any of you believe racial profiling should not be tolerated no matter what the circumstance may be, you will encounter the same problem everywhere you go. Therefore, while we are specifically talking about this particular case, comparing with the situations in other countries is relevant.

When this encounter took place, an important event with some of the world leaders was taking place in Hokkaido. The police was expecting many foreigners traveling to Hokkaido just to participate in demonstrations against globalization, etc. In previous Summits, there had been people utilizing a tactic, so called Black Blocing, which tend to be violent and dangerous. Since they, the police, would not possibly be able to screen every single person who would come through the airport, they concentrated on the foreigners.

There is no question as to if this was racial profiling. The police officer himself says on the tape that it was.

If we keep bringing up this particular incident with debito and the police, it will make it hard to keep the focus of this thread. Here we are arguing what debito's motives would have been. That doesn't really matter. Not to the discussion we are trying to have here anyway.

The OP states that he had heard about some disturbing facts about Japanese police and wanted to know if they were true. Some members have written that they did not believe the "facts" listed in the OP was all accurate while others said they were.

Someone said that people's personal anecdotes don't relate to the discussion. Isn't that what OP was asking for? The OP itself is something he had heard from one of his friends. I thought he was basically asking other members "What are your experiences/opinions?". I'd much prefer reading about members' personal experiences than the one by someone who is not participating here. Why is debito's personal anecdote, which, again, happened under a special circumstance, more important/relevent than those of Kirin Man or Otenba?

orochi

Jul 18, 2008, 23:29

Why is debito's personal anecdote, which, again, happened under a special circumstance, more important/relevent than those of Kirin Man or Otenba?

I didn't read Otenba's comment, so I can't comment on it.
But Debito's incident is recorded on tape and in print.
KirinMan says he has some relatives.
There's a huge difference.

Thanks for summing things up though. This thread has gone all over the place. A lot of it is probably my fault.

Pachipro

Jul 19, 2008, 00:28

The point of the OP was to ask if what he printed was propaganda and BS or fact. Unfortunately, most of it is overblown BS with maybe a hint of minor truth to one or two points.

As far as Debito is concerned, I respected him at the outset and thought he was a crusader and a voice for foreigners in Japan, but over the years I have come to regard him as nothing more than a race-baiting foreigner turned Japanese citizen looking to push his agenda in any way he can in order to keep his name in the newspapers and to keep his ego alive.

I regard him today as nothing more than a white version-in Japan of an Al Sharpton or a Jessee Jackson who look for racism under any circumstance and even provoke it at times as has been proved more than once, and then look for the cameras or news media for support. Hopefully, more Japanese will see him for what he really is.

If Debito just walked through the airport once, took a picture or two and went on his way, I doubt he would've been stopped. The fact that he hung around "baiting" and "non-verbally begging" the police to stop him is what I disrespect. He got just what he asked for and then complains about it and screams racism. My respect for that kind of action and him diminishes daily. Heck, I'll bet a million yen that I could also provoke that kind of action by the police with suspicious behavior and my camera near the Imperial Palace or the Diet building, record the whole thing and then scream racism. Way too easy.

I'm waiting for the lawsuit to be filed and will be looking for it and the outcome.

Emoni

Jul 19, 2008, 05:23

One thing I do want to point out. While I don't know much about Debito, and how much he "baited" the situation is unknown, Police and law enforcement will do the same sorts of behavior. Sure there is something to be said for baiting, but there wasn't much going on really from the looks of it. Especially with keeping in mind that the police will set traps as well from time to time in countries to catch others.

Claiming that they were just baiting you to commit the crime doesn't work for you against the police, and it shouldn't work for the police against you either.

Otenba

Jul 19, 2008, 15:20

Pachipro just said something I felt growing in my own mind, too. Debito WANTS racism so he can make a big deal out of it and himself.
We must keep in mind that Japanese manners are way different from many other counties' and so sometimes I find it understandable that Japanese will try to keep foreigners at a distance. Often when I'm in Japan, I watch foreigners behave as if they're at home, or worse, home alone.

What I personally find hilarious is how Debito keeps repeating "Nihonjin desu" with one hell of an accent that has you wonder whether he's freakin serious or took the Japanese nationality just for the fun of it. Usually, when people who don't look or act their nationality walk up to me and repeat that they so are the nationality they claim to be, I just point and laugh... If they're not at the very least 100% adapted to their country (perfect language skills, perfect adaption to local law and manners,...), I don't accept them screaming "I'm (insert country here)!" unless their pure-blooded (insert country).

Kirakira1232

Jul 19, 2008, 18:20

I dont know if this is relevant to the conversation but here goes.

I have to say I have not lived in Japan for an extended period of time...but from reading a lot of posts, I think the whole thing with Debito may partly be due to the fact that Japan is by and large a mono-cultural country. From what I've heard from The Japan Times and from other posts around this board, the naturalisation process is notoriously difficult and most of the time is almost never guaranteed. The Police simply arent used to hearing or seeing a westerner that has been naturalised Japanese.

Was that any excuse for them to check his ID? I dont know, given that it was a high profile summit like G8 I would expect the Police to be naturally edgy. Did they use racial profiling? Maybe...even so racial profiling/stereotyping isnt anything radically new and still exists today even in multicultural societies such as Australia, America and the UK. Does it mean the Japanese police are racist? Who knows? All I can glean that it was a Policeman asking for the ID of a western looking man who kept saying he was Japanese but still not providing his ID.

I'm an Australian citizen by birth and my parents are of asian heritage and sometimes there are assumptions made about me (like on occasions i get asked if I'm an international student). I dont find it offensive I just politely say I was born in Australia and explain my parents are of Cambodian heritage. Perhaps this whole thing could have been averted if he just politely explained that he is a Japanese citizen but his parents are not of Japanese heritage and just showed his ID. If a Policeman asks me for my ID while walking around an area where 10 of the world's leaders were meeting, I'd produce it regardless of the reason.

Unfortunately I dont have enough experience in Japan to answer the OP's questions due never having had any run in with the law....so I'm sorry.

orochi

Jul 19, 2008, 19:24

Pachipro just said something I felt growing in my own mind, too. Debito WANTS racism so he can make a big deal out of it and himself.
Do you have anything to back this up? Why are you putting words in somebody else's mouth?
We must keep in mind that Japanese manners are way different from many other counties' and so sometimes I find it understandable that Japanese will try to keep foreigners at a distance.
Has anybody brought up manners? The biggest problems we've discussed have been based on the law.
Often when I'm in Japan, I watch foreigners behave as if they're at home, or worse, home alone.
For many foreigners living here, Japan IS their home. They have careers, spouses, children, extended families, own property, etc.
What I personally find hilarious is how Debito keeps repeating "Nihonjin desu" with one hell of an accent that has you wonder whether he's freakin serious or took the Japanese nationality just for the fun of it.
His Japanese is fine. Why don't you put up a recording for us and let everybody hear your Japanese skills.
And how does your perception of his language ability have anything to do with the life choice he made to change his nationality? I don't see how these two correlate at all.
Usually, when people who don't look or act their nationality walk up to me and repeat that they so are the nationality they claim to be, I just point and laugh...
As has already been brought up a few times, the cop approached Debito. Your point here is irrelevant.
If they're not at the very least 100% adapted to their country (perfect language skills, perfect adaption to local law and manners,...), I don't accept them screaming "I'm (insert country here)!" unless their pure-blooded (insert country).
Define 100% adapted. That sounds like quite an extreme. It sounds like even people born and raised here might have trouble fitting in. Do you know anybody who is always happy with what is going on, speaks perfectly without the slightest error, knows all the laws of the land by heart, and is always perfectly polite? I didn't think so.
And you mention pure-blood. This brings up a lot of problems. What about children of Japanese and foreign parents? Should people face persecution and accusations every day of their life because because one of their parents was born outside of Japan?

Otenba

Jul 19, 2008, 19:45

As for Debito, it's the feeling I've gotten from reading his stuff. Instead of just enjoying Japan, he's going around complaining about racism. If Japan's so racist, why won't he just leave? All those lawsuits and phone calls for "Japanese only" signs and stuff... is it such a tragedy not to be able to go and sit in a public bath or visit THAT ONE club out of a million in the vicinity?

As for manners and law: disrespecting manners is very often a first alarm signal for the next step, breaking the law. I'm not saying that an ill-mannered person is usually a criminal, but ill-mannered people are still worth keeping an eye on often times.

What I meant with behaving as if you're at home, was behaving like you're not in Japan but in a country where it's natural to pull the trigger on people for so much as trespassing. Acting in Japan like you're somewhere else where you get away with your habits the Japanese may find disturbing. Do I greet people in Japan with hugs and kisses just because we do so in Belgium? God forbid.

And yes, I have an accent and I tend to stutter, but I don't go high and mighty and get a nationality of a country which obviously, visibly and audibly is not my original country. I'm German and as a German, I'm credible. But if I were to get a Japanese nationality, people would just point and laugh. Someone who's not perfectly mastered a country's language shouldn't have the guts to claim its nationality. I was raised in Germany by a pure-blooded German mum, I don't look too foreign, and my German is accent-free which makes me sufficiently German. It's way too different in Debito's case and I don't think he should boast with Japanese nationality. To me, a Japanese person looks like a Japanese person. Like, a visible amount of Japanese blood. THEN go calling yourself Japanese again. When a Moroccan dude walks up to me and says "Me be Belgium man", well, no, he is not. Not audibly, not visibly, not manner-wise.
Being a permanent resident - GREAT! But even taking the nationality.......

And I never defended discrimination or prosecution for not being pure-blooded. I'm merely saying that someone who claims to be Japanese but neither looks, nor sounds like it, mustn't be too surprised when not taken seriously.

orochi

Jul 19, 2008, 19:56

Instead of just enjoying Japan, he's going around complaining about racism.

How do you know he doesn't enjoy his life here? And why not complain about racism? What is so bad about pointing out problems, many of them legal issues as well?

is it such a tragedy not to be able to go and sit in a public bath or visit THAT ONE club out of a million in the vicinity?

Yes it is. How would you feel if your children were refused entry to a restaurant because they didn't look German enough?

But if I were to get a Japanese nationality, people would just point and laugh.

Why do you think so? More and more people are getting Japanese nationality every year.

It's way too different in Debito's case and I don't think he should boast with Japanese nationality.

Where is he boasting?

To me, a Japanese person looks like a Japanese person. Like, a visible amount of Japanese blood.

Your perception of Japanese nationality is not the issue.
And as has been mentioned MANY times, there is no legal definition of nationality that includes anything about blood. It is irrelevant. Drop it.

I'm merely saying that someone who claims to be Japanese but neither looks, nor sounds like it, mustn't be too surprised when not taken seriously.

Being surprised is not the issue. We are talking about equal treatment under the law.

Emoni

Jul 20, 2008, 05:42

I have to say I'm impressed by Orochi's calm and intelligent method of looking at these issues. Especially when faced with the apathetic, emotional, and often misinformed responses he is getting here.

Good show.

pipokun

Jul 20, 2008, 20:17

The biggest problems we've discussed have been based on the law.

(And you brought the law here...)
警察官職務執行法第二条　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知っていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。

Again, if Debito believes the cop's action were irrational, just go to court for compensation. All doors are open. And the camera at the airport may tell who was more rational the cop or someone standing and taking photos at the gate in the special occasion.

Elizabeth

Jul 20, 2008, 20:52

To me, a Japanese person looks like a Japanese person. Like, a visible amount of Japanese blood. THEN go calling yourself Japanese again. When a Moroccan dude walks up to me and says "Me be Belgium man", well, no, he is not. Not audibly, not visibly, not manner-wise.
Being a permanent resident - GREAT! But even taking the nationality.......
And I never defended discrimination or prosecution for not being pure-blooded. I'm merely saying that someone who claims to be Japanese but neither looks, nor sounds like it, mustn't be too surprised when not taken seriously.
I can't believe you can say something with a straight face that is more racist than the Japanese government itself. Whether Belgium allows immigrants to nationalize is neither here nor there. Just try not to stare too hard at the first sighting of a Caucasian or black face speaking fluent Japanese, OK ?? Or tell a kid that was born and/or raised of Japanese parents outside the country who may speak at best imperfect, accented Japanese that they are a total fake by the blood standards of an idealized, real European. :okashii:

Otenba

Jul 20, 2008, 21:09

I never said a Japanese kid raised outside Japan isn't entitled Japanese nationality.
And I'm not being racist. I don't mind foreigners living in another country than that of their nationality. All I'm saying is: before having a nationality branded on your passport, make sure it fits you. Do I speak perfect French? No. Am I a resident in a francophone country? Yes. But will I take its nationality before getting rid of any hints that I might not be as Franco-Belgian as a nationality on a passport would have you think? God forbid - NO.

Again: residency is fine but nationality on paper is pompous in many cases.

And if a black person approaches me and says they're Japanese, well Japanese people look different to me. But that does absolutely not mean I got something against black people, I only got something against people who don't seem the part they try to play. Being fluent in a language changes crap. Roots I tell ya, roots. A "Japanese" with all too visible Nigerian roots who looks and sounds more Nigerian than Japanese, will always be a Nigerian to me.

KirinMan

Jul 20, 2008, 21:16

I never said a Japanese kid raised outside Japan isn't entitled Japanese nationality.
And I'm not being racist. I don't mind foreigners living in another country than that of their nationality. All I'm saying is: before having a nationality branded on your passport, make sure it fits you. Do I speak perfect French? No. Am I a resident in a francophone country? Yes. But will I take its nationality before getting rid of any hints that I might not be as Franco-Belgian as a nationality on a passport would have you think? God forbid - NO.
Again: residency is fine but nationality on paper is pompous in many cases.
And if a black person approaches me and says they're Japanese, well Japanese people look different to me. But that does absolutely not mean I got something against black people, I only got something against people who don't seem the part they try to play. Being fluent in a language changes crap. Roots I tell ya, roots. A "Japanese" with all too visible Nigerian roots who looks and sounds more Nigerian than Japanese, will always be a Nigerian to me.
Do you realize how you sound here?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a elephant right?

Otenba

Jul 20, 2008, 21:19

No, as easy to guess from my post, it'd most probably be a... duck?

KirinMan

Jul 20, 2008, 21:30

No, as easy to guess from my post, it'd most probably be a... duck?

It may not have been your intent but your sure as heck came across as sounding racist to me.

pipokun

Jul 20, 2008, 21:32

警察官の衣服引きちぎり逮捕　足利署
足利署は１４日、公務執行妨害の現行犯で、住所不定、ナイジェリア国籍、職業不詳オウコリ・ジュニア・フライデー容疑者（４１）を逮捕した。
調べによると、フライデー容疑者は同日午後３時１５分ごろ、足利市今福町の路上で、同署員２人から職務質問を受けた際、男性巡査長（２７）の防護衣を引きちぎるなどした疑い。
http://www.shimotsuke.co.jp/news/tochigi/local/accident/news/20080714/24663

Tochigi, the police arrested a Nigerian man.
The suspect allegedly torn the cop's uniform when he was stopped and questioned.

A little knowledge of The Art of War makes you hurt. And I believe Sun Tzu would surely get his temper under control, though I don't know how humbly the cops asked the guy like the Debito's case.

Otenba

Jul 20, 2008, 21:38

It indeed isn't my intention to be racist and as I said, being a permanent resident anywhere you please, is fine. But getting some nationality is, in my eyes, like a certificate to be (in this case) Japanese enough to be part of a nation, and hence I find if boastful and inappropriate in many cases. Living in Japan and keeping your (insert country name here) nationality, is great though.
I won't take Israeli nationality either before learning the language and at least 3 dates of national/Jewish holidays AND serving the army and protecting my country, thereby proving myself worthy of its benefits. My blood is 50% Israeli though and I look the part, and I'm born there, and those things are, to me, partial qualifications. But to my personal standard, it's not enough so I bear with not being officially Israeli just yet. I'm not Israeli enough in my own opinion though I know I could get the nationality any time I asked. But right now, I'm still too un-Israeli. Thing is, Debito will never look Japanese and that is why I will never call him Japanese. I look Israeli, one problem solved :D

Though it's getting OT and I suggest we spare the thread of any more nationality-discussion.

KirinMan

Jul 20, 2008, 21:46

It indeed isn't my intention to be racist and as I said, being a permanent resident anywhere you please, is fine. But getting some nationality is, in my eyes, like a certificate to be (in this case) Japanese enough to be part of a nation, and hence I find if boastful and inappropriate in many cases. Living in Japan and keeping your (insert country name here) nationality, is great though.
I won't take Israeli nationality either before learning the language and at least 3 dates of national/Jewish holidays AND serving the army and protecting my country, thereby proving myself worthy of its benefits. My blood is 50% Israeli though and I look the part, and I'm born there, and those things are, to me, partial qualifications. But to my personal standard, it's not enough so I bear with not being officially Israeli just yet. I'm not Israeli enough in my own opinion though I know I could get the nationality any time I asked. But right now, I'm still too un-Israeli. Thing is, Debito will never look Japanese and that is why I will never call him Japanese. I look Israeli, one problem solved :D
Though it's getting OT and I suggest we spare the thread of any more nationality-discussion.
If you want to spare it you shouldnt have brought it up in the first place, and you shouldnt have continued with replying to it either.

That still comes across as racist, because you are still suggesting that a persons nationality is based upon their looks.

It shouldnt matter what he looks like. I can forgive the police for their ignorance because not everyone in Japan knows who Dave is, yet they also need to be better educated about the changing face of society here.

Otenba

Jul 20, 2008, 21:50

orochi

Jul 20, 2008, 22:20

All I'm saying is: before having a nationality branded on your passport, make sure it fits you.

This is assessed when you apply for said nationality. If the government of Japan, and the Minister of Justice think that Japanese nationality fits you, then what right does a random person on the Internet like you have to doubt it? What reason do you even have?

Japan is a part of ASIA and the ASIAN people have distinct physical features Africans don't have. That is not racist but a fact.

Physical features have no legal basis when it comes to determining nationality. I have mentioned this many times. Please stop bringing it up unless you have proof of a Japanese law that links nationality to physical appearance. Otherwise it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Elizabeth

Jul 20, 2008, 22:29

Society may change face, but a dog will always be a dog, no matter how well he meows. If he goes claiming he's a cat, he'll get rich at the circus though. A Nigerian will never be a Japanese and a Japanese will never be a Nigerian. Japan is a part of ASIA and the ASIAN people have distinct physical features Africans don't have. That is not racist but a fact.
Having one Japanese parent equals citizenship but obviously at the same time without a guarantee of the genotype normal to a full-blooded Japanese, or even half-Asian. They could come out as beautifully sculpted and athletic as Tiger Woods...:relief: (A half-black, one-quarter American Indian, one-quarter white father) mixing with a half-Thai, half-Chinese mother)....

KirinMan

Jul 20, 2008, 22:40

Having one Japanese parent equals citizenship but obviously at the same time without a guarantee of the genotype normal to a full-blooded Japanese, or even half-Asian. They could come out as beautifully sculpted and athletic as Tiger Woods...:relief: (A half-black, one-quarter American Indian, one-quarter white father) mixing with a half-Thai, half-Chinese mother)....

Well said Elizabeth. I have a good friend who happens to have an American father and Japanese mother, he is blond haired, blue eyed and has absolutely no obvious Japanese or Asian features.

Oh and he also speaks zero English too, having been born and raised in Japan and went through the Japanese school system here. He only has Japanese citizenship as well, as his parents got divorced when he was a young child.

I wonder what nationality Otenba would take him for? But since he doesnt look Japanese I guess that disqualifies him from being such.

Otenba I think has much to learn about what the difference between a nationality and race are.

pipokun

Jul 20, 2008, 23:15

orochi

Jul 20, 2008, 23:21

I feel sorry for Debito or other passengers at Chitose Airport, but many would show his/her cooperation with cops in that special occasion.

That doesn't matter. I'm sure there would be a few people that would drop their paints if the police asked them to. That doesn't mean everybody should, though.

pipokun

Jul 20, 2008, 23:42

That doesn't matter. I'm sure there would be a few people that would drop their paints if the police asked them to. That doesn't mean everybody should, though.

You are right. When you don't agree with the conduct by the cop, just go to court.
I just asked Kirin about his friend hoping I can see as many Japanese posters as possible here.

And don't worry no dropping our pants clause in the Art of War.

Otenba

Jul 20, 2008, 23:45

I don't see how a cop requesting an ID is worth a trial in court. He did that believing he'd prevent crime, maybe with a slight bias, and asking for an ID is no big deal IMO. Why make a big deal out of it when you have nothing to worry about..? It'd been different if the cop had dragged him off and strip-searched him. He'd have had my full support then. But taking an ID request to court? Flash the ID card and get it over with. A matter of 20 seconds.

orochi

Jul 20, 2008, 23:52

I don't see how a cop requesting an ID is worth a trial in court.

Even if it's illegal?
And there has been no talk of bringing this issue to trial. Why are you mentioning it?

He did that believing he'd prevent crime

Based on what? There's no evidence of this in the audio tape.

Why make a big deal out of it when you have nothing to worry about..?

There's a lot to worry about.

But taking an ID request to court? Flash the ID card and get it over with. A matter of 20 seconds.

Yet you seem to think a strip search is unreasonable. Why not just take your clothes off? 200 seconds and it is over. Deal with it.

pipokun

Jul 20, 2008, 23:57

Even if it's illegal?
...

It was you who kindly brought the law here. It IS legal for cops in Japan to stop & question somebody.

orochi

Jul 20, 2008, 23:59

It was you who kindly brought the law here. It IS legal for cops in Japan to stop & question somebody.

Did you read the law I posted?
Please read it before commenting again.

Otenba

Jul 21, 2008, 00:01

A strip search is one of the most humiliating "200 seconds" one can give you, I'm speaking from experience. I flash my ID card everywhere I go - to pick up a parcel, at the airport, at age checks,... so? Big deal. So they get to know my name. OMG! The horror!

Illegal? Because that cop picked a foreigner? Maybe that isn't quite right, but also not dramatic enough to take to court if you ask me. Like, elsewhere a person gets stabbed and court is occupied dealing with someone complaining about having to reveal their name during a period of tightened security in a country he knew was a teensy bit racist.

Based on what? Are you suggesting the cop was just bored? He was cooperative enough to sound rather sincere to me. I despise cops and the system for the most part, so you won't see me defending them if I don't think they really might not be so evil in this case. I also had my luggage searched for drugs because I had a tattoo. Annoying, but so? They were very nice and apologized in the end, guess the tattoo made them suspicious. 've learnt my lesson and put a bandage on it once I enter the airport. Not behaving suspiciously will save your *** in most cases. Debito with his observation thing wasn't doing himself a favor.
Let's not lump injustified ID checks together with rape and murder. Not everything illegal (I bet everyone here owns at least one illegal download) is worth a trial. Well, you can always try for the money you may get out of it.. if you win :P

pipokun

Jul 21, 2008, 00:13

Did you read the law I posted?
Please read it before commenting again.

警察官職務執行法第二条　警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知っていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。

Simple. I know it was a disgusting time for Debito, but it was unusual situation as the cop told so, the G8 summit.
And we don't know how long Debito was standing and taking photos at the airport or we don't know how many cop-loving photographers were there then, isn't it a bit rational for cops to ask somebody to stop and question him?

And if he really felt offended even after the kind apology by the cop, just go to court. Fortunately he has a lot of evidences as he claims. The rationality is not something we can conclude here.

KirinMan

Jul 21, 2008, 07:52

KirinMan, ask your good friend what he would do in the same situation like Debito.
I feel sorry for Debito or other passengers at Chitose Airport, but many would show his/her cooperation with cops in that special occasion.
Next time I see him I will.

For someone who has been living here as long as he has Debito should know better. He was looking for trouble in my opinion, but hell he has to make a living somehow right?

Unless of course the police were fully aware of who he was and were just harrassing him. You know this is a closed knot society, information gets passed along through the network of the police department.

It's a conspiracy to give Dave more headaches.

Or they are all working together and Dave is paying the cops under the table bribes to help assist him in making them look like Nazi's.

Dont know which, but this episode of him with the police here sounds like poorly written material for a daytime soap opera.

Taiko666

Jul 23, 2008, 12:47

Good to see some passion back on JREF!

Hats off to Orochi for persisting where many (including myself) would've given up long ago. (Actually, when I first came to Japan I would've persisted too... but argueing with fellow NJ whose attitude seems to be 'this is Japanese way, and it won't change so deal with it' too demoralizing.)

This thread seems to have several sub-threads intertwined, so I'll rattle off some my thoughts quickly before the boss gets back...

1) Debito in the airport
Debito walks through the airport and gets asked for his id (he wasn't 'hanging around' at that point.) Japanese laws state that the police must suspect you of a crime (or potential crime) before they can ask for id.

So either
a) The police officer didn't suspect him of a (potential) crime, and was thus acting illegally
b) He did suspect Debito of a (potential) crime based on his looks, which is legal (in Japan) but immoral (in most places except Japan)

How you reacts to this is determined by whether you-
a) are Japanese Joe Public wanting to see the police 'doing things' to 'combat terrorism', and the legality/morality of their actions is irrelevant to you.
b) are someone whose disdain for Debito is more important than challenging illegal/immoral police actions
c) really couldn't care less

2) The OP's question.
Seemed like a valid question to me. I asked a similar question a while back and was similarly berated. Basically I think that Japanese law makes it very easy for abuses to take place (I would regard Pachipro's 3 days of questioning for forgetting to carry his id an abuse), but, as an American friend in Nishi-ogi once remarked, your attitude (and the attitude of the person in authority) is a huge factor in how things turn out.

I also think this is unsatisfactory, and should change if Japan continues to become more ethnically diverse.

I've said before that I think Japan has 3 choices:
- roll back / halt the onset of ethnic diveristy in Japan (impossible)

- continue as present but make some simple changes to the law that would make things much less painful for all involved (seems a no-brainer)

- continue as present without changing the laws and deal with the ensuing chaos (seems the most likely outcome)

caster51

Jul 23, 2008, 15:53

I've said before that I think Japan has 3 choices:

before that, The foreigner should discuss it in Japanese if you want to change.

Emoni

Jul 23, 2008, 16:14

Japanese nationality really has nothing to do with practices such as this. There is a lot to be said for how a nation treats its visitors. (This applying just as much to the US.)

Becoming a Japanese national is another issue in and of itself. To mix them both, and to somehow claim that you MUST be a Japanese national to even consider these issues or want to work towards their change is short sighted and is a relatively baseless argument.

I'd say it along the lines of the logic (or lack of to be more exact) "America love it or leave it." This sense of nationalist separatism is not only internally harmful, but leaves a great deal to be desired in regards to international behavior.

It has already been shown through numerous studies (check NHK, and I believe another posted already showed this as well in here) that foreigners are not a real problem when it comes to crime. Treating people as criminals, over reacting, and having an arguably broken legal system (yes, there are MAJOR flaws) isn't in anyone's benefit. "Foreigners" standing up and fighting against it is actually in Japan's long term benefit and those who are doing so DO care about the country and the people, that is why they make such an effort. Instances, even if baited, like Debito's do need to be brought to the forefront, as racism and behavior that is far worse does exist in Japan. There were numerous stories I read concerning concerning Korean or Chinese immigrants to Japan in legal classes at Waseda. It was quite discouraging.

Before discounting those who stand up or speak out against situations like this, listen to them because there is often going to be a sincere effort and reason behind the effort. As annoying as some may be, and problematic as they seem, even people like Debito are trying to bring good from their work. They aren't just running to the airport waiting around to feed their fetish of being stopped by cops so they can run in and fap in the nearest restroom. Don't over simplify too much...

Fearing getting arrested just for not carrying a card, being finger printed now at airports and a picture taken, being stopped by the police for registration... I'm not a criminal, a majority of the criminals are JAPANESE... Stop treating us like criminals. Human rights and legal arguments aside, stop doing it for the most basic reason that, "it's very rude."

orochi

Jul 23, 2008, 17:51

before that, The foreigner should discuss it in Japanese if you want to change.

What does that comment add to this conversation? I'd like to hear an honest answer.

Otenba

Jul 23, 2008, 18:48

The way Emoni puts it, I have to admit I must agree for a large part. On the other hand, I also agreee on "love it or leave it" as nobody is forced to live in a place they keep complaining about. Save up some money and GTFO. Sometimes I see foreigners in Belgium behave (or clearly state) as if they hate Belgium, they live by laws and "manners" they're used to from their homeland, which are often crimes in Belgium, and then complain about intolerance. Well... airport's just one train ride away! If you wanna live in another country, speak its language and abide by its rules. Or else, what point is there in living abroad when you're going to act the same everywhere?

I think what caster51 meant, please do correct me if I'm wrong, is: if you want to be accepted by a country, then start by adapting to and embracing it, which includes but is not limited to: don't go around asking "Do you speak English" in a non-English country and expect to be welcomed with open arms and people listening to your complaints when you're not even willing to adapt to the most basic thing of any country: communicating in its language. Communication is the base of all, and Japan communicates in Japanese most of the time, so if you're wanna complain in and about Japan, do it in Japanese if you wanna be taken seriously. D'uh.
If that's what he meant, I agree 100%.

orochi

Jul 23, 2008, 20:06

On the other hand, I also agreee on "love it or leave it" as nobody is forced to live in a place they keep complaining about.

Just getting up and leaving someplace and abandoning it would be a sign you didn't care very much. On the other hand, if you stayed and tried to help things change for the better it would show you truly cared.

Don't confuse the guy who is at the bar every night complaining about how bad his life is to somebody who cares about his home and wants to see things changed for the better.

Also keep in mind that the guy who complains all the time might not be any happier anywhere. His environment might not matter at all.

And we've been over this before, but there are also people who cannot get up and leave so easily as you say because of a job, family, mortgage, or other reasons.

So you might want to work on your policy a bit more factoring in real world factors as well.

pipokun

Jul 23, 2008, 20:17

1) Debito in the airport
Debito walks through the airport and gets asked for his id (he wasn't 'hanging around' at that point.) Japanese laws state that the police must suspect you of a crime (or potential crime) before they can ask for id.

I don't know what he actually did, but he clearly said he did watch the cop for quite some time. And when we believe what he said that he went to the station after the conversation, he took the action to take photos or else. I don't know how moral his actions are, though.

So either
a) The police officer didn't suspect him of a (potential) crime, and was thus acting illegally
b) He did suspect Debito of a (potential) crime based on his looks, which is legal (in Japan) but immoral (in most places except Japan)

Illegality of the police action, in this case "stop and question", is judged by the balance depending upon circumstances. Of course, I don't mean that the police has an almighty card which give them win all card games.

This is a case law not about the stop and question, but more about involuntary search.

And the gist goes that there are some cases under certain situations where the police action might use their power.

松江相銀米子支店強奪事件
Robbery case of Matsue Sogin Bank in Yonago
職務質問に附随して行う所持品検査は所持人の承諾を得てその限度でこれを行うのが原則であるが、捜索に至らない程度の行為は、強制にわたらない限り、たとえ所持人の承諾がなくても、所持品検査の必要性、緊急性、これによって侵害される個人の法益と保護されるべき公共の利益との権衡などを考慮し、具体的状況のもとで相当と認められる限度において許容される場合があることを判示したものである。
裁判要旨
所持品検査は、任意手段である職務質問の附随行為として許容され、所持人の承諾のない限り所持品検査は一切許容されないと解するのは相当でなく、捜索に至らない程度の行為は、強制にわたらない限り、所持品検査においても許容される場合がある。
Wikipedia (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9D%BE%E6%B1%9F%E7%9B%B8%E9%8A%80%E7%B1%B3%E5%A D%90%E6%94%AF%E5%BA%97%E5%BC%B7%E5%A5%AA%E4%BA%8B% E4%BB%B6)

It is great of the British long tradition for their unarmed police, but even for them they use guns in a certain situation and killed an innocent person.
If their conduct is wrong, people have a right to access to court, right? It is the same here as the criminal's appeal above was unfortunately rejected whose claim that the search by the police was intolerable human right abuse.

When you are in the similar situation like Debito, please go to court.

joday38

Jul 23, 2008, 20:29

hello guys..m a new member here..nd m welcoming myself..urgh..nway, i join u since i hv a sis workin n jpan nd hv some query 4 u guys..she's planning 2 go home dis cming dec nd s planning to only get 1 way tiket (Japan-Phil)no return tiket.is this possible?is she allwoed to exit japan w/o a return tiket?she holds a 3yr visa married to a japanese..no credit card of her own..hw or where she could buy or reserve a ticket? husband is not helpful at all...appreciate f u cud give me some insights...thx guys..

Taiko666

Jul 24, 2008, 14:15

I don't know what he actually did, but he clearly said he did watch the cop for quite some time.

Well, I think the whole Debito is bad/good thing is somewhat of a diversion, but he quite clearly states he was going about his business normally, was stopped, and *afterwards* stood observing the policemen's actions in order to ascertain if Japanese-looking people were also being stopped.

It is great of the British long tradition for their unarmed police, but even for them they use guns in a certain situation and killed an innocent person.
If their conduct is wrong, people have a right to access to court, right? It is the same here as the criminal's appeal above was unfortunately rejected whose claim that the search by the police was intolerable human right abuse.
When you are in the similar situation like Debito, please go to court.

Thanks for your appreciation of British police being unarmed! (usually...) I think the day all British police start carrying guns will be a very sad one.
Indeed, British police have killed innocent people. However, the instance of this is much less than once a year. And of couse, it makes front page news, and court actions / judicial inquires and sometimes even international diplomatic crises ensue (I'm sure you had the unfortunate Brazilian in mind.)

The differences is there is a law against shooting innocent people. Therefore the law kicks in automatically.

In Japanese law, stopping a foreigner is legal bacause *being* a foreigner is enough to cause the necessary suspicion. Therefore the law doesn't kick in. And for a foreigner, there is not even the option to sue... because although discrimination is unconstitional, the Constitution only pertains to citizens. Debito could sue if he wanted, but I wouldn't be able to.

In short, there's is no legal recourse for a foreigner who is stopped just for being a foreigner.