Are Japanese People Too Polite To Be Your Friends?

[Megumi Kimoto]

A friend of mine lamented that Japanese people give him the cold shoulder in the end. He claims that in the beginning the Japanese people are polite and kind, but when you try to get closer, they stop becoming any closer.
My friend was born in India, mastered the Japanese language to perfection, came to Tokyo for work, got disappointed with the lack of intimacy with Japanese people, and married an Indian girl from his hometown.
Do you share the same opinion? Even if you try to fit in, do the Japanese people make you feel lonely? Or do you enjoy candid and authentic relationships with the Japanese people?

[tokapi]

I think this is a very complicated issue.Like all other ethnicities,Japanese have their likes and dislikes when come to people.One acquainted Taiwanese friend said to me that there are some Japanese individuals ( in Japan ) don't like Taiwanese rather have Filippinos for friends.She's even aware of Japanese chicks frequent local " pubs " just to meet black guys.

Ordinary Japanese do have great preference to meet and get to know Western people.I posed the question to Makiko and discussed in depth about it,her answer was " it's natural that people like to seek out nationalities are diferent from them ".

Most of my Japanese-speaking Taiwan friends said it's true that average Japanese are polite and friendly but they tend to keep you at a distance.Only exception would be you and them befriended at school and share some interests.

For Asians,negative experiences with Japanese outweigh the positive.

[Emoni]

There is some truth to this... I'm not going to go too deep into speculation, but I can say whenever I'm in Japan it is much easier to make friends with Chinese and Korean students (I'm speaking of the Japanese language speakers) than any Japanese students. There is a STRONG sense of that wall that exists between Japanese... "in general." However, there are plenty of Japanese who I'm quite close too as well. That wall definitely exists though.

[kirei_na_me]

I think it's very true. That's all I can say. I pretty much agree wholeheartedly with that. All Japanese people I've encountered are very polite and friendly, but usually, there is no depth. There's generally nothing more than small talk. I think the Japanese are scared of letting the wall down. They are scared of sharing their true emotions, for fear of being judged, then rejected. As I hear all the time, and what is supposed to explain everything, "Japan is a small island country, you know".

[KirinMan]

All Japanese people I've encountered are very polite and friendly, but usually, there is no depth. There's generally nothing more than small talk.
I agree with the small talk part, many things stay superficial.

I have also found that alcohol helps to break down some of the walls and assists in getting people here to talk more about their feelings.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I have lived in this country for 49 years. In my experience, Japanese people do not express their feelings even among themselves. I suspect this is because they are always repressing their emotions. Unconsciously, maybe. My theory is that that is the secret behind the rapid economic growth - by repressing spontaneous feelings, people can work so hard without complaining.

I am writing this because I feel that some people in this Forum seem to have an idealized image of Japan. But this country has a pathetic side.

[ASHIKAGA]

I am writing this because I feel that some people in this Forum seem to have an idealized image of Japan. But this country has a pathetic side.

I wonder where you got that impression. I have been on this forum for about 5 months now and what I have seen is the exact opposite. There are people on this forum who have not spent much time (if at all) in Japan yet have a very negative image of Japan. It seems to me that those who have spent considerable amount of time in Japan and have a better understanding of the country, its culture and its people, tend to have a more balanced, realistic view about this country, and their views are reflected in their posts. I don't think you have to worry about people on here missing "the pathetic side" as you have put it.

While I do see your point about the people who supressed their "emotions" and helped the economic growth of this country, I think that the notion of Japanese people being "too polite to be your friends" is a bit ridiculous. I am sure some of the members who are married to Japanese people can tell you.

[Goldiegirl]

Well....my husband can be "too" nice and polite. It can get on my nerves very quickly. I just tell him to "spit it out", just say what you are really thinking....he tends to try and avoid any real conflict or arguments, but I question as to whether that truly makes him happy. He is too nice to too many people, and it seems to me he allows himself to be take advantage of. So yes, I do think Japanese can be too polite. Do I think the nation s full of polite, nice people...nope, some of the rudest things have been said and done to me in Japan. Overall though, it's a cool country.....

[KirinMan]

While I do see your point about the people who supressed their "emotions" and helped the economic growth of this country, I think that the notion of Japanese people being "too polite to be your friends" is a bit ridiculous. I am sure some of the members who are married to Japanese people can tell you

lol here! I will just have to remind my wife if the fact next time she bitches at me for not taking the garbage out on time...........

But honey Japanese people are supposed to be polite......

As the fry pan comes flying across the room and smacks me in the head.

[Kirakira1232]

lol here! I will just have to remind my wife if the fact next time she bitches at me for not taking the garbage out on time...........
But honey Japanese people are supposed to be polite......
As the fry pan comes flying across the room and smacks me in the head.

LOL this just made me smile for some reason :)

[Megumi Kimoto]

I think that the notion of Japanese people being "too polite to be your friends" is a bit ridiculous. I am sure some of the members who are married to Japanese people can tell you.
My concern is whether it takes more efforts to make friends in Japan than in other countries. I think it is important to feel connected with other people around you to feel welcomed. But as long as Japanese people stick to their superficial politeness when you are with them, no real connection is made.

[FrustratedDave]

My concern is whether it takes more efforts to make friends in Japan than in other countries. I think it is important to feel connected with other people around you to feel welcomed. But as long as Japanese people stick to their superficial politeness when you are with them, no real connection is made.
What, the fact that you actually have work at a friendship is what bothers you?
In my experience, once you get past all the initial politeness and you make an effort at your friendship, you will have a true friend for life. The main people I see complaining about what your are , have a fundamental lack of understanding about Japanese and how things work here. In all your 49 years if you have not made any true friends, I think you should have a look at yourself. No offence intended.

lol here! I will just have to remind my wife if the fact next time she bitches at me for not taking the garbage out on time...........
But honey Japanese people are supposed to be polite......
As the fry pan comes flying across the room and smacks me in the head.
Or a coffee mug... Dodgeball comes to mind.

[alantin]

I think point of view also plays a big part in this.

What do people expect? What is intimate? And what is friendship?

My culture is very similar to japanese in that people don't tend to let other people close very easily. I spent a relatively short time in Japan, but in that time when in contact with japanese people I experienced what I would pretty much expect in my home country (although with added politeness..), but building a friendship takes years of work. Spending time together, common interests, hobbies, etc., and you wouldn't share your inmost thoughts with just anybody..

Getting "mates" or "pals" in Japan is in my (limited) experience even easier than here due to the "western coolness" but majority of those things are bound to stay superficial.

Just my 2c. ^^

[tada]

I'm used to it. We have the same thing in the Seattle Area (known as the "Seattle Freeze"), so this won't be much of an adjustment.

[Chidoriashi]

My thinking is that many people mistake Japanese being very polite, as an act of friendliness or friendship. Thus, they may at first get the idea that the door is open for becoming good pals with that person, when in reality they have just misconstrued the Japanese persons behavior. This then results in the impression that Japanese are hard to get close to because "the door was open, the opportunity was there" but when the friendship never blossoms the foreigner walks away a little confused and probably with the kind of impression of Japanese people the OP is talking about.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I'm used to it. We have the same thing in the Seattle Area (known as the "Seattle Freeze"), so this won't be much of an adjustment.
Seattle ranks the highest in suicide rate in the U.S.
And Japan also ranks the highest among industrialized nations in suicide rate.
Here is the data of WHO.
Male suicide rate per 100,000
LITHUANIA 70.1
BELARUS 63.3
RUSSIAN FEDERATION 61.6
KAZAKHSTAN 51
HUNGARY 44.9
SRI LANKA 44.6
UKRAINE 43
LATVIA 42.9
GUYANA 42.5
SLOVENIA 37.9
JAPAN 35.6
ESTONIA 35.5
REPUBLIC OF KOREA 32.5
FINLAND 31.7
BELGIUM 31.2
CROATIA 30.2
REPUBLIC OF MOLDOVA 29.3
SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO 28.8
POLAND 27.9
FRANCE 27.5
AUSTRIA 26.1
CZECH REPUBLIC 25.9
CHINA (Hong Kong SAR) 25.2
URUGUAY 24.5
SWITZERLAND 23.7
SLOVAKIA 23.6
LUXEMBOURG 21.9
ROMANIA 21.5
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO 20.9
CUBA 20.3
BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA 20.3
NEW ZEALAND 19.8
BULGARIA 19.7
GERMANY 19.7
SWEDEN 19.5
DENMARK 19.2
CANADA 18.3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 17.9
SURINAME 17.8
CHILE 17.8
ICELAND 17.7
PORTUGAL 17.5
AUSTRALIA 17.1
IRELAND 16.3
NORWAY 15.8
KYRGYZSTAN 15
ARGENTINA 14.1
TURKMENISTAN 13.8
BELIZE 13.4
CHINA (selected rural & urban areas) 13
NETHERLANDS 12.7
MAURITIUS 12.7
SPAIN 12.6
SINGAPORE 12.5
INDIA 12.2
EL SALVADOR 12.2
COSTA RICA 12.1
THAILAND 12
ITALY 11.4
PANAMA 11.1
NICARAGUA 11
PUERTO RICO 10.9
UNITED KINGDOM 10.8
ZIMBABWE 10.6
SAINT LUCIA 10.4
ISRAEL 10.4
TFYR MACEDONIA 9.5
SEYCHELLES 9.1
ECUADOR 8.6
VENEZUELA 8.4
COLOMBIA 8.2
UZBEKISTAN 8.1
MALTA 7
BRAZIL 6.8
SAINT VINCENT AND THE GRENADINES 6.8
MEXICO 6.7
BAHAMAS 6
GREECE 5.2
BAHRAIN 4.9
ALBANIA 4.7
PARAGUAY 4.5
GEORGIA 3.4
GUATEMALA 3.4
ARMENIA 3.2
TAJIKISTAN 2.9
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 2.9
PHILIPPINES 2.5
KUWAIT 2.5
AZERBAIJAN 1.8
BARBADOS 1.4
PERU 1.1
IRAN 0.3
JAMAICA 0.3
SYRIAN ARAB REPUBLIC 0.2
EGYPT 0.1
SAO TOME AND PRINCIPE 0
ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA 0
HAITI 0
HONDURAS 0
JORDAN 0
SAINT KITTS AND NEVIS 0
kirei_na_me wrote, "the Japanese are scared of letting the wall down. They are scared of sharing their true emotions, for fear of being judged, then rejected." I suspect this is because Japanese people have low self-esteem.

[ASHIKAGA]

kirei_na_me wrote, "the Japanese are scared of letting the wall down. They are scared of sharing their true emotions, for fear of being judged, then rejected." I suspect this is because Japanese people have low self-esteem.

Do you have any friends who are Japanese or are they just "too polite" to be your friends?

I understand that you have some sort of disdain toward Japanese people from whtever your personal experience has been in your 49 years here but it might be that very negative outlook that prevents true friendship from developing. Being able to see only the good side of things is a problem and so is the opposite.

[tada]

Seattle ranks the highest in suicide rate in the U.S.

It's not quite the highest. The cities with the highest suicide rates are Las Vegas and other major gambling cities. However, I bet Seattle is near the top.

[Taiko666]

Or a coffee mug... Dodgeball comes to mind.

Wow... all these DV stories :-( I've never understood why people think they're funny. My Japanese ex-ex g/f was wont to throw things at me, so I quickly showed her the door.

As for the OP's question... At first I agreed, but then gave the matter some more thought. I think it's easy to get the impression that one's Japanese friendships are shallow because it's exceedingly easy, as a reasonably well-adjusted foreigner, to make many such friendships. It's often the case that initially, your new Japanese friend is attracted to your foreignness. When that novelty wears off you can get a better idea of how suited you are. I've made a number of 'true' Japanese friends, but my phonebook is stuffed full of people with whom I've had a lot of fun but will perhaps never see again. It's the 'turnover' of acquaintances which may lead to the impression that your Japanese friends are shallow.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I define a true friend as someone with whom you can talk about your family secrets and someone who sees you as who you really are. I am a Japanese. My best friend is my husband, who is also a Japanese. He is OK. :-) My second best friend is a Japanese housewife, who recently developed bipolar disorder and now she is on medication. (I am writing about this because ASHIKAGA asked me whether I have any Japanese friends.)
My occupation involves contacts with people from other countries, who I perceive are more assertive and more expressive than Japanese people.
I have mixed feelings about Japan. All good things people in this Forum mentioned are true. But I am surrounded by too many pathetic people, and I am wondering if my situation is exceptional.

[FrustratedDave]

Wow... all these DV stories :-( I've never understood why people think they're funny. My Japanese ex-ex g/f was wont to throw things at me, so I quickly showed her the door.
Taiko, real DV is not something to laugh about, but lets face it the above comments were obviously made in jest. I would expect a coffee mug comming my way after comming home drunk after an office party and demanding another beer from the wife....
I define a true friend as someone with whom you can talk about your family secrets and someone who sees you as who you really are. I am a Japanese. My best friend is my husband, who is also a Japanese. He is OK. :-) My second best friend is a Japanese housewife, who recently developed bipolar disorder and now she is on medication. (I am writing about this because ASHIKAGA asked me whether I have any Japanese friends.)
My occupation involves contacts with people from other countries, who I perceive are more assertive and more expressive than Japanese people.
I have mixed feelings about Japan. All good things people in this Forum mentioned are true. But I am surrounded by too many pathetic people, and I am wondering if my situation is exceptional.
Don't misinterpret foreign peoples assertiveness and ability to express their feelings as sincerity, as it can also be a sign of shallowness. Obviously you can't say this as a blanket statement, but it generally holds true. It takes a long time to really become true friends with anyone ,anywhere in the world. I know I have only a few true friends back where I used to live, I mean people who I would really share my deepest thoughts with.

I knew you were Japanese, but I was commenting on those who are not saying Japanese are challenged in the friendship department.

I tend agree with Ashikaga, the door swings both ways. You have to be positive in approch if you really want to make good friends with someone. Friendships really do require a lot of work.

[Chidoriashi]

Taiko 666> I totally agree............................................. .............. (twenty text rule)

[Megumi Kimoto]

[QUOTE=FrustratedDave;585130] It takes a long time to really become true friends with anyone ,anywhere in the world.
I agree on that.
Having said that, my theory is that it takes a tremendously longer time to get closer to people in Japan than in other countries because the Japanese tend to repress their own feelings.

[KirinMan]

I agree on that.
Having said that, my theory is that it takes a tremendously longer time to get closer to people in Japan than in other countries because the Japanese tend to repress their own feelings.

Tremendously???, interesting way of putting it.

I am curious to know what countries you are making the comparison to Japan with and what your definition of friendship is.

[Megumi Kimoto]

Tremendously???, interesting way of putting it.
I am curious to know what countries you are making the comparison to Japan with and what your definition of friendship is.
Good questions. The places I am comparing with are the Philippines, India, and California in the United States.
Definition of friends? There may be many types of friends from casual to intimate, but at least someone who does not show you a fake smile on a regular basis.

[KirinMan]

There may be many types of friends from casual to intimate, but at least someone who does not show you a fake smile on a regular basis.
True there are many levels of friends that's for sure, but fake smiles on a regular basis isnt just limited to Japanese people either.

I know plenty of American's that are very much the same.

You know I find it rather curious that people particularly from America complain about Japanese and friendship, where in America where I am from btw, I was taught from a very young age that a person should consider themselves very lucky if they have one or two "true" friends in their lifetime.

I wonder if that perception has changed so much that everyone "expects" everyone that they meet to be their friends.

Just because Japanese people by nature are not as open or free in sharing their thoughts and feelings with others doesn't mean that they are not friends. I personally dont like the assumption that for a person to be considered a friend that I or they have to be all open and sharing with their lifes little secrets.

Hell I really dont care if my "best friend" doesn't choose to share with me the fact that they have fantasies of making out with a sheep. And I also dont care if my Japanese friends dont want to tell me what they "honestly" think about me either. I am secure enough in knowing who and what I am that I dont "need" all that emotional sharing and openess that many westerners seem to need in their friendships.

I know plenty of Japanese that call all of their school mates and people that they work with "friends", where I would just consider them aquaintances. Which goes back to the point of different levels of friendship.

[caster51]

but at least someone who does not show you a fake smile on a regular basis

so,you misunderstood about that for 49 years?
that is why....

[ASHIKAGA]

Good questions. The places I am comparing with are the Philippines, India, and California in the United States.
Definition of friends? There may be many types of friends from casual to intimate, but at least someone who does not show you a fake smile on a regular basis.

I think what you are saying is that you can see through the "fakeness" of the smiles on Japanese people becuase you have spent 49 years of your life in Japan. OK. The question is, though, how can you say that you can do the same with people from other countries and California in the US? Do you think you have spent enough time observing and interacting with the people from different countries and California in the US to make a fair comparison with the Japanese?

My best friend is my husband, who is also a Japanese. He is OK. My second best friend is a Japanese housewife, who recently developed bipolar disorder and now she is on medication.

Why am I beginning to think that you are not really what you are telling us you are.... If that is the case, Shame On Me for replying. My apologies in advance if that is not the case and you just added that little piece of info on your second best friend for who-knows-what. It's just that my BS detecter is set rather high when I am on a forum like this.

[alantin]

@KirinMan

It was interesting reading your post because I was starting to think that americans in general seem to expect all people they meet to instantly become their friends. (Friend here meaning in a quite deep way.)

It is also interesting to see that people do have quite different definitions for the word "friend", although I thought so from the beginning of the thread.

I also think that a friend is someone very special and rare.
Perhaps not only one or two people in a lifetime though.. Or then again.. Maybe that is quite right.

Also the linguistics is interesting here. In English I might say "a friend of mine" meaning any aquaintenance but there is only perhaps one or two people that I might call that in my own language.

Others are pals or aquaintenances.

I wonder how the japanese actually feel about the words 友達　and 仲間.
And if there is a third word meaning a deeper relationship.


Ps. It was interesting to note that Finland was only three steps below Japan in that list a while ago. Though I knew it was on a quite high place.

[KirinMan]

alantin, good post there.

What I am trying to get people to think about is what they think a friend should be and then to hopefully realize that for each person it is different and to generalize about an entire nation of people is probably off the mark.

Each person and situation is different. Just because Japanese people are polite on the surface doesnt mean that they are cold and heartless either. They just show their emotions in different ways.

Doesnt make it any better nor any worse either, it's just their way, and it is a way that I try to copy at times, but I just cant seem to get the hang of smiling and being polite to someone who has been a royal *** to me.

My face gives me away.

[FrustratedDave]

I wonder how the japanese actually feel about the words 友達　and 仲間.
And if there is a third word meaning a deeper relationship.



親友、　Best friend
友人、　Freind
友達、 friend
仲間、 part of a group, co-worker
知り合い、aquaintenance
知人、 aquaintenance
顔見知り、、Someone I know.

That is in order of friendship meaningfullness , if you know what I mean?:bluush:

[alantin]

Thanks!
A good and helpful list!

:wave:


@KirinMan
Being overly polite with a completely expressionless face (or with a smile) to a "royal ***" can be more effective (and insulting if you wish it to be!) than shouting at him.
It's all about articulation and the way it's delivered. ^^
It is another thing if they get it, though..

But this is getting a bit off-topic.. Sorry!

[Megumi Kimoto]

Well....my husband can be "too" nice and polite. It can get on my nerves very quickly. I just tell him to "spit it out", just say what you are really thinking....he tends to try and avoid any real conflict or arguments, but I question as to whether that truly makes him happy. He is too nice to too many people, and it seems to me he allows himself to be take advantage of. So yes, I do think Japanese can be too polite. Do I think the nation s full of polite, nice people...nope, some of the rudest things have been said and done to me in Japan. Overall though, it's a cool country.....
Thank you Goldiegirl, for explaining the situation so clearly. That is my point.

[pipokun]

...
Definition of friends? There may be many types of friends from casual to intimate, but at least someone who does not show you a fake smile on a regular basis.
It seems to me that you finally got the answer by yourself.
1. There are many people.
2. And some people show you a fake smile on a regular basis, but the others (like you) do not.
3. So it may be an idea for any of us to try to find as many opportunities as possible to meet many types of people.

If you meet the Indian guy, ask him if he has started something new after he came to Japan. It is easier to play a blame game using adjectives such as real, authentic, superficial politeness, or whatever you say than actually starting something new.

*snip*
4. If possible, please kindly join other threads in which you claim some would find Japan too idealized. I've been trying (lazily) to find ones here since you start this thread, but I have yet to find them. Thank you for your bumping.

[Otenba]

It may depend on where you look for friends. A shared interest is always great, and I've had lots of long conversations, deep conversations and discussions with people I met at Manji Line parties and we do stay in touch. I also think it depends on how you approach them (most approached me rather than vice-versa though). Speaking English and being "rude" (or at least not adapting to their manners and gestures) is always a minus I think.
I was also told by several Japanese that they make a difference between eg. Europeans and Americans and while they act nice to Americans, they honestly do appreciate Europeans. Maybe that's because Europe hasn't dropped nuclear bombs and junk food on them.

[ASHIKAGA]

I was also told by several Japanese that they make a difference between eg. Europeans and Americans and while they act nice to Americans, they honestly do appreciate Europeans. Maybe that's because Europe hasn't dropped nuclear bombs and junk food on them.

Several Japanese people told you that, heh? I think I know all of them. They all go by the name, Figmentof Yourimagination. Not a very Japanese sounding name, I know.... but that IS their name.

Voicing your opinions is fine but putting the blame on Japanese people for a silly comment like that is wrong. Next time you do something like that, try "a Japanese friend of mine told me that...." or " I have read somewhere that....". Several Japanese told you.... :blush:

[Dutch Baka]

Interesting thread with a lot of good replies!!

親友、　Best friend
友人、　Freind
友達、 friend
仲間、 part of a group, co-worker
知り合い、aquaintenance
知人、 aquaintenance
顔見知り、、Someone I know.
That is in order of friendship meaningfullness , if you know what I mean?:bluush:

Nice list FrustratedDave, but can you please put some hiragana/ roman letters with it as well?

[Kirakira1232]

親友、　Best friend
友人、　Freind
友達、 friend
仲間、 part of a group, co-worker
知り合い、aquaintenance
知人、 aquaintenance
顔見知り、、Someone I know.
That is in order of friendship meaningfullness , if you know what I mean?:bluush:

Interesting thread with a lot of good replies!!
Nice list FrustratedDave, but can you please put some hiragana/ roman letters with it as well?

In the order of FrustratedDave's list:

Shinyuu （しんゆう）　親友
yuujin (ゆうじん）　友人
tomodachi　（ともだち）　友達
nakama　（なかま）　仲間
shiriai　（しりあい）　知り合い
chijin　（ちじん）　知人
kaomishiri　（かおみしり）　顔見知り

[Otenba]

Several Japanese people told you that, heh? I think I know all of them. They all go by the name, Figmentof Yourimagination. Not a very Japanese sounding name, I know.... but that IS their name.
Voicing your opinions is fine but putting the blame on Japanese people for a silly comment like that is wrong. Next time you do something like that, try "a Japanese friend of mine told me that...." or " I have read somewhere that....". Several Japanese told you.... :blush:
This isn't the first time you insult me by doubting the truth of my words (and personally, I find it little exciting to post lies as a base of discussion).
Where did I put any blame on anyone? It is a fact that several Japanese people that I met, told me that the Japanese prefer Europeans to Americans.

[epigene]

This isn't the first time you insult me by doubting the truth of my words (and personally, I find it little exciting to post lies as a base of discussion).
Where did I put any blame on anyone? It is a fact that several Japanese people that I met, told me that the Japanese prefer Europeans to Americans.
Hasn't it occurred to you that these Japanese had been trying to be nice to you? :blush:

They may in fact like Europeans more than Americans, but they don't represent the entire Japanese population.

My personal experience with Westerners had been mostly with Americans, and many I like and some I don't like. With Europeans, I can't tell because I don't know that many.
Their comments probably come from limited personal experiences, in their case coming from knowing some "nice" Europeans and having little experience of getting to know Americans.

[Otenba]

It had indeed ocurred to me, but if I were to question every word someone says to me in the flow of a rather frank conversation that lasts hours, I'd have to lock myself up and cut the ties to all human contact because OMG, everyone's a liar. I rather believe what is credible. The Japanese wouldn't be the first to differentiate between Americans and Europeans based on experience and behavioral differences...
I never said my few acquaintances represent all of Japan's population, mind you.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I appreciate comments made to share one’s own first-hand experience in non-business interaction with Japanese people, sharing one’s own preference about friendship, and sharing one’s own realistic expectation of friendship with culturally different people.
On the other hand, I am beginning to see signs of some of the Forum Rules being violated, which are:
1. MUTUAL RESPECT
a. … Avoid flaming and other offensive or profane behavior. Don't launch personal attacks….
b. If you feel a discussion is getting out of hand contact the forum administrator or a moderator, by using the report button, in order to resolve the issue.
3. KEEP YOUR POSTS (FAMILY-) FRIENDLY
4. STAY ON TOPIC
Can anyone tell me where the “report button” is to stop certain individuals from flaming?

[pipokun]

You can find the report icon, though I did not use it.
http://www.jref.com/forum/images/buttonscolour/report.gif

Or just use the section below.
Site Feedback/Admin Contact

[FrustratedDave]

It had indeed ocurred to me, but if I were to question every word someone says to me in the flow of a rather frank conversation that lasts hours, I'd have to lock myself up and cut the ties to all human contact because OMG, everyone's a liar. I rather believe what is credible. The Japanese wouldn't be the first to differentiate between Americans and Europeans based on experience and behavioral differences...
I never said my few acquaintances represent all of Japan's population, mind you.
No, but it would be advisable to understand that they may just be saying that to make you feel like they really want to be friends with you. And if you believed what most people say I would say try not to be so gullible.
I appreciate comments made to share one’s own first-hand experience in non-business interaction with Japanese people, sharing one’s own preference about friendship, and sharing one’s own realistic expectation of friendship with culturally different people.
On the other hand, I am beginning to see signs of some of the Forum Rules being violated, which are:
1. MUTUAL RESPECT
a. … Avoid flaming and other offensive or profane behavior. Don't launch personal attacks….
b. If you feel a discussion is getting out of hand contact the forum administrator or a moderator, by using the report button, in order to resolve the issue.
3. KEEP YOUR POSTS (FAMILY-) FRIENDLY
4. STAY ON TOPIC
Can anyone tell me where the “report button” is to stop certain individuals from flaming?
Hmm... Another Mael perhaps?

[Otenba]

Ofcourse. But then again, by putting down Americans by even calling them names (Monads, lol!), I don't feel so much more welcome as a European. I don't care about being accepted for my origins anyways, but ofcourse they don't know that.

No, I don't believe what most people say, but after a history of backstabs and stuff, I've learned to see through some things. I'm not really gullible, but in cases where blindly believing in the good sides is harmless, it can't be wrong to do so, right?
Btw, dishonest politeness isn't exclusive to the Japanese. "That movie sucked!" - "I'm the director." - "I... I mean, I liked the story and the visuals..."...

Also, not only Japanese first encounters tend to be spiked with little lies in order to please the other. The important thing is what grows from that first encounter and how honest it becomes from there on.

Btw, I'd rather be gullible than lonely.

[FrustratedDave]

Btw, I'd rather be gullible than lonely.
All a matter of perspective I think...

[Otenba]

Yup, and my perspective is to try and stay positive. Makes enjoying life easier.

[FrustratedDave]

Yup, and my perspective is to try and stay positive. Makes enjoying life easier.
But it also makes your opinions clouded and unrealistic...

[Otenba]

Almost sounds like it's more "realistic" to be negative about encounters with Japanese people and suspect every Japanese person of being a two-tongued bastard who secretly hates you. How very healthy for possible relations.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I suspect one out of every 25 people is a double-tongued, double-faced sociopath, as Martha Stout says.
But the rest are honest.

[caster51]

I suspect one out of every 25 people is a double-tongued, double-faced sociopath, as Martha Stout says.
But the rest are honest

A hedge between keeps friendship green
Manners know distance
Politeness is not just for strangers

[Pachipro]

Once one understands the culture and the reason for "the face they show to strangers and aquaintances" and "the face they show to their friends and family" one understands that the politness the Japanese show you at the outset is just a formality and nothing more. Even if they despise you and dislike you, in company, or when first meeting you, they will usually be polite to you.

I have witnessed many times, including my own wife, the politness she showed people/neighbors whom I know she dispised and disliked and said neighbor/person also responded in kind. When questioned, she said that it was a formality and was to keep the harmony and to not cause any trouble.

I always found it amusing and still do. For myself, when in Japan I do as the Japanese do and respect the culture and respond with kindness and politness even to those I dislike or feel I do not have a rapport with. Therefore, when I meet Japanese people for the first time I understand that their politness is more out of formality than whether they really like me or not.

During my early years in Japan I really got to understand this first hand when still learning the language. A female friend of a female friend whom I used to talk with now and then on the phone became a little miffed one day when I was using polite Japanese instead of the informal speech we used to speak when we were all together. (I mistakenly thought I should use the polite form) She said, in Japanese, something to the effect of, "Is anything wrong? Are you angry at me? " When I said that "No, nothing is wrong and I am not angry at you", She replied with, "Am I not your friend? Why are you speaking so politely then?" The phone call was "cold" after that and soon ended with me being a little perplexed.

Later my female friend explained it fully to me. It was then that I fully understood where she was coming from and learned the proper way when one should use the polite form of the language and when one should use the informal language and with whom.

However, the politness of the Japanese does not make it any harder for me to make friends nor does it hinder us becoming friends because I understand it. When two people "hit it off" the feeling is mutual and the formal speech and politness soon goes by the wayside. I have quite a few "real" friends in Japan and it had nothing to do with their politness in the beginning once I understood it.

On the other hand, I can understand how some foreigners not very familiar with this part of the culture can become miffed and think the Japanese are superficial and feigning politness when they mistakingly think a friendship has been sparked.

[Otenba]

Then what if the polite speech IS dropped after a short while, by the Japanese person?

While yes, there are (big) cultural differences between Japanese and others, I think one should not only see the "japaneseness" of their behavior but also keep in mind that no matter who it is, they're still human and human Japanese people have more words, manners, feelings and gestures than the "Japanese repertoire". I mean, eg. individual things like let's say a vulgar Japanese dude compared to a high-society little Japanese Miss Princess. Reasons for being polite aren't ALL for sakes of harmony or making good impressions, some are simply naturally more polite than others.
So it's not only a matter of Japanese/foreigner interaction, it's also, fundamentally, interaction of 2 human individuals and not all encounters can be measured by the same standards.

[Megumi Kimoto]

Being kind and polite to everyone, even to those one dislikes, is being practiced around the world in the service industry. People in some professions must control their facial expressions because they are paid to be nice.
Japanese people, including me, are trained to perform as if working in the service industry. It may create harmony, but it also causes emotional fatigue.
I feel this invisible social pressure to keep harmony is too heavy in Japan. And harmony is tension-filled.

[KirinMan]

Then what if the polite speech IS dropped after a short while, by the Japanese person?
While yes, there are (big) cultural differences between Japanese and others, I think one should not only see the "japaneseness" of their behavior but also keep in mind that no matter who it is, they're still human and human Japanese people have more words, manners, feelings and gestures than the "Japanese repertoire". I mean, eg. individual things like let's say a vulgar Japanese dude compared to a high-society little Japanese Miss Princess. Reasons for being polite aren't ALL for sakes of harmony or making good impressions, some are simply naturally more polite than others.
So it's not only a matter of Japanese/foreigner interaction, it's also, fundamentally, interaction of 2 human individuals and not all encounters can be measured by the same standards.
Otenba how long were you in Japan?

[Otenba]

I bet that if I replied anything less than 10 years, you'll tell me I've been fooled, they all actually hate me and so on, but with human interaction it's not a question of "how long" but of "how intense" and if you have a gift of "reading the air"/"kuuki wo yomeru" (don't even know any non-Japanese expressions for this), I think that's worth more when dealing with people you've personally spent time with than what a stranger will tell you about a country's population in general.

[KirinMan]

I bet that if I replied anything less than 10 years, you'll tell me I've been fooled, they all actually hate me and so on, but with human interaction it's not a question of "how long" but of "how intense" and if you have a gift of "reading the air"/"kuuki wo yomeru" (don't even know any non-Japanese expressions for this), I think that's worth more when dealing with people you've personally spent time with than what a stranger will tell you about a country's population in general.
Well how long......?

Oh and you dont want to get into a discussion about intense or not intense either. There are plenty of people here that have had "intense" times here that would probably make yours seem like a picnic in the park. I would recommend you dont go there.

[alantin]

I wonder what you are after and how your comment is supposed to benefit this discussion..

She has a point in that one should not make generalizations about these things.
Interpersonal relationships ought to be weighted on case by case basis.
Still. The concept of preserving WA or harmony is very deeply rooted in Asian cultures. Not just Japan and should not be taken lightly either.

[bakaKanadajin]

I really agree with Frustrated Dave and Pachipro here. The Japanese way is almost opposite in some ways to the Western way. In the West, if you don't like someone you show your dislike right up front. Then after you've befriended someone it's at that point in time that you open up and become a little more cheerful.

The Japanese politeness veil isn't even that exclusively Japanese. Anyone who's worked anywhere busy in the West, especially in a sales or office environment, knows that people are constantly saying stuff like 'Oh you like X too? Let's go Xing sometime', and of course that never materializes and it'd be almost akward to call them out on it and be like 'So we never got around to hanging out, when's good for you?' because both parties know it was just a formality. Is it so different?

It's not that Japanese people necessarily become 'colder' as you get to know them either, but because that veil of politeness and formality eventually comes down the later parts of a friendship probably seem quite different to that initial burst of cheerful politeness even though relations are progressing.

As pointed out in Pachipro's post, reverting back to the politeness at the wrong time can signal a regression in familiarity back to that formal, 'I don't want to be close to you' phase and being polite can be taken out of context as a form of distancing or breaking-off.

At the bottom of it all, people are people, and if you've displayed sincerety and consistency you can befriend anyone, provided that person doesn't have prejudice as their barrier (which can happen in any country).

[FrustratedDave]

Then what if the polite speech IS dropped after a short while, by the Japanese person? Just b/c the polite speach is dropped does not mean that you are on the way to being friends with that person. Politeness does not end in speach. I think you will be aware of "honne and Tatemae" , most people will not reveal what they are really thinking. Instead they will talk with you about asorted things dancing around what they really think, all the while they are judging you by your comments and reactions. And foriegners are very ,very easy to read, but on the other end of the stick foriegners will find it almost next to impossible to read whether someone is telling you what they are really thinking or just a few "safe" ideas and concepts that won't get them jugded in any way.
While yes, there are (big) cultural differences between Japanese and others, I think one should not only see the "japaneseness" of their behavior but also keep in mind that no matter who it is, they're still human and human Japanese people have more words, manners, feelings and gestures than the "Japanese repertoire". I mean, eg. individual things like let's say a vulgar Japanese dude compared to a high-society little Japanese Miss Princess. Reasons for being polite aren't ALL for sakes of harmony or making good impressions, some are simply naturally more polite than others.
So it's not only a matter of Japanese/foreigner interaction, it's also, fundamentally, interaction of 2 human individuals and not all encounters can be measured by the same standards.
Yes Japanese are human, but you can't expect the same reactions that you would get from people in your home country where you have grown up. People have feelings and emotions all the same all over the world , but they are deffined by how they express them. And the general majority will always take the "safe" route when talking to people who they do not have absolute complete trust in.

[Megumi Kimoto]

Just b/c the polite speach is dropped does not mean that you are on the way to being friends with that person. Politeness does not end in speach. I think you will be aware of "honne and Tatemae" , most people will not reveal what they are really thinking. Instead they will talk with you about asorted things dancing around what they really think, all the while they are judging you by your comments and reactions. And foriegners are very ,very easy to read, but on the other end of the stick foriegners will find it almost next to impossible to read whether someone is telling you what they are really thinking or just a few "safe" ideas and concepts that won't get them jugded in any way.
Yes Japanese are human, but you can't expect the same reactions that you would get from people in your home country where you have grown up. People have feelings and emotions all the same all over the world , but they are deffined by how they express them. And the general majority will always take the "safe" route when talking to people who they do not have absolute complete trust in.
I agree.
Japanese people play "safe" because it is more important for Japanese people to be accepted by others.
Correct me if wrong, but in the Western culture, even if you are disliked and rejected by everybody else on earth, you are still loved by God, right?
In Japan, if you are rejected by society, you lose your reason to exist.

[Otenba]

I never said that the Japanese frankly say what they think but it takes a retard on the foreigner's side or one hell of an actor on the Japanese's side to not notice blatant differences between what they're saying and what they're thinking. I can tell when the other person is thinking that I might as well drop dead, no matter how nice they're acting on the outside and no matter how nice the smalltalk seems to be.

[pipokun]

I agree.
Japanese people play "safe" because it is more important for Japanese people to be accepted by others.
Correct me if wrong, but in the Western culture, even if you are disliked and rejected by everybody else on earth, you are still loved by God, right?
In Japan, if you are rejected by society, you lose your reason to exist.

Just take a look at the over 100 year old book by the French sociologist, Emile Durkheim, still giving us much insight about the Western and suicide as what you might call, though I don't know what you mean by the Western culture.

[FrustratedDave]

I never said that the Japanese frankly say what they think but it takes a retard on the foreigner's side or one hell of an actor on the Japanese's side to not notice blatant differences between what they're saying and what they're thinking. I can tell when the other person is thinking that I might as well drop dead, no matter how nice they're acting on the outside and no matter how nice the smalltalk seems to be.
I garrentee that you can't tell when a Japanese is telling you something what they want you to hear in the time that you have spent here. If you believe your own words then you are in for a really big shock or drop dead as you put it. I will say again, you have not been listening to other members have you? It does not end in small talk by any means.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I agree that racial stereotyping is bad / generalization of people is harmful / a human relation is on a one-to-one basis/people are the same deep down everywhere.
What I want to discuss here is cultural norms. I feel strongly about it, after living in the United States for a few years. At college, American students address professors as if they were friends, like, “Hi, Andrew, I have a question…” I was amazed. If I do that in Japan, the Japanese professor would think I am arrogant.
I personally prefer American/Filipino/Indian ways of social interaction to the Japanese one, because it is so much simpler.

[Otenba]

I garrentee that you can't tell when a Japanese is telling you something what they want you to hear in the time that you have spent here.
(never said it ends in smalltalk)
I'm not really talking about WHAT people tell me, but about what they "smell" like. I can love someone to death and still tell them what they wanna hear (I'm in a film school, do you have any idea how many suckage movies I had to praise because my friends made them?), this is not what I meant. If you're not a social retard, you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, and as you said yourself: smalltalk isn't enough for that. It's more of a matter of "kuuki wo yomeru", too lazy to translate this. People who talk all hearts and flowers and still radiate a shittty "kuuki" can say whatever they want, I'll know they hate me anyway.

@Megumi
Oh, you should come to Belgium. We greet our favorite teachers with hugs and kisses :D (does depend on the school, St Lukas BXL will allow anything non-violent..)

[pipokun]

It was the US who firstly sold (systematized) employee's emotion as a product in the service sector. Probably C. Marx would be surprised to see that human emotions such as smile as well as Hello Kitty's unemotional face are products to sell from the hell.

So your experiences were the ones at a college in the US and the encounter with an Indian guy in Japan. Am I correct?

[Ava-from-wonderland]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but i`ll anyway say my opinion.
I think japanese are not harder or easier to make friends with.
Of course it debends a lot, every japanese is of course a individual.
But i am trying to say is, that japanese just make friends with their own way. They do not "get so close" with their friends and tell them their deebest secrets, but that does not mean that they are not friends..
It`s just their way being friends, american way is different, european way is different, but it`s not better or worser than any other way.

[alantin]

What I want to discuss here is cultural norms. I feel strongly about it, after living in the United States for a few years. At college, American students address professors as if they were friends, like, “Hi, Andrew, I have a question…” I was amazed. If I do that in Japan, the Japanese professor would think I am arrogant.

If a Finnish student were to call his teacher, in Finnish, say.. Mr. Smith, He would sound like a retard. Even arrogant! I sounds too official!
I still find it weird to attach titles to names as is normal when speaking English and even more so in Japanese!

That's cultural differences for you! :cool:

[alantin]

They do not "get so close" with their friends and tell them their deebest secrets, but that does not mean that they are not friends..

Well.. They certainly don't let you close at first but I've been told that once they do, you have a true friend for a lifetime.

I'm not sure if this has come up already or not, but doesn't this "not letting people close easily" come from a little different idea of what a friend is, that they have in Asian cultures as opposed to western ones.

As all relatives and friends, one has, form a complex network of people to whom he is indebted to and who are indebted to him, they are hesitant to add people to this network and want to make sure the new guy is worthy before "letting him close".

So a friend is not just someone you have great time together. He is someone who you can rely to and ask for favors and who can ask favors from you.

Japan being an old rice farming society, the people are used to different kind of dependency of each other than westerners traditionally are and it has it's implications to this also.

Or have I gotten it dead wrong? ^^;


Thinking like this also springs forth the following question: Would a foreigner easily be thought of as a non-potential friend because he is expected to go back home soon anyway..

Any thoughts on this?

[FrustratedDave]

(never said it ends in smalltalk)
.... I can love someone to death and still tell them what they wanna hear (I'm in a film school, do you have any idea how many suckage movies I had to praise because my friends made them?), this is not what I meant. If you're not a social retard, you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, and as you said yourself: smalltalk isn't enough for that. It's more of a matter of "kuuki wo yomeru", too lazy to translate this. People who talk all hearts and flowers and still radiate a shittty "kuuki" can say whatever they want, I'll know they hate me anyway. But, what I have been trying to tell you is that Japan is a whole different ball game, even if you are the greatest people reader in your own country you will have a lot of difficulty reading someones emotions here. "kuuki wo yomeru" is definately important, but you are kidding yourself if think you can perform this in such a short time that you have been here.

I remember when I had been here for about 5 years, I thought my Japanese speaking skill was almost perfect, I thought I could understand everyone and what they were saying without any misunderstandings. Boy was I wrong, for each year that I am here, I feel like I have taken another step backwards. The reality is that I have actually moved forward in the total understanding of Japanese as a language and Japanese people, but the more I learn the more I realize what I don't know. Now you can take this with a grain of salt and keep on thinking that you are right in you judgment of "kuuki wo yomeru" and keep believeing what you want to, but I am only saying this for your sake and I hope it is nat a case of " A little information is dangerous" adage. I wish someone would have told me earlier.

[KirinMan]

" A little information is dangerous" adage. I wish someone would have told me earlier.
I was told by a rather nice person one day that things would be so much easier for me here not knowing Japanese, however because of my personality I couldnt imagine happening and for a while things became infinitely harder and more frustrating living here in Japan because as I not only learned the language but also understood what wasnt being said.

Ignorance is bliss pops into mind, and depending upon the situation, many Japanese people's level of comfort changes dramatically along with the level of understanding of the language. Expectations also change as well.

I truly doubt that any short term resident or visitor to Japan would ever be able to get to that level of familiarness with any Japanese person in a personal or professional relationship.

[KirinMan]

If you're not a social retard, you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, and as you said yourself:
After reading this line I really have a hard time imaging that you have ever been here to Japan AND had any kind of meaningful intercourse with any Japanese person beyond the "I'm fine thank you! And you!"

Let me guess, everyone smiling and being polite, that can mean one of two things here; (Actually there are plenty of other meanings as well, I just choose two from either end of the spectrum)

1. I'm smiling and polite because you are a foreigner and I want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about coming to Japan.

2. I'm smiling and polite but actually I'd love to rip your face off for coming here to my country and polluting it with your prescence.

Or my personal favorite; (Added as an extra here for サ−ビス)
Plus @....I'm smiling and polite but actually I have a combination of PMS, the flu, and would love to be at home in bed asleep but I came out of my misery to see the goofy foreigner who wants to be the next male/femaleJohn Blackthorne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Blackthorne)wannabe. Or any equivalent Japanophile.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dont know if you caught the sarcasm in my reply so to explain it better for you so there is no misunderstanding on your part, to assume that someone is a social retard if they can't you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, tells me a lot about the type of people that you interacted with here during your short visit.

[Megumi Kimoto]

Some people are intuitive and may be able to sense other people’s feelings accurately (i.e., high EQ).
In that sense I am probably a “social regard.” Even though I am a Japanese, I always have a hard time figuring out what the other Japanese person is really feeling. That’s why I like a frank, outspoken environment. This is only my personal preference, and I am not saying one culture is better than the other. And my personal preference is shaped by my limited experience, which is not definite, and can change in future.
I learn a lot by hearing other people’s experiences.

[Otenba]

@Megumi Kimoto
Some people are intuitive and may be able to sense other people’s feelings accurately (i.e., high EQ).
That's what I'm trying to say but KirinMan prefers being offensive, sarcastic and accusing me of lying and other things.

@KirinMan
the type of people that you interacted with
I'm curious what that might be in your allmighty, absolute, globally accurate and undisputable opinion which represents the absolute truth of the earth, oh KirinMan-sama, reincarnation of Jesus and the 10 Commandments, word of God the allknowing!

1. I'm smiling and polite because you are a foreigner and I want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about coming to Japan.
That doesn't require you to actually run after me to drag me off and spend half a day and half your money with/on me and make a bad impression on your fellow countrymen when I didn't ask you to.

2. I'm smiling and polite but actually I'd love to rip your face off for coming here to my country and polluting it with your prescence.

If you're actually calling my presence pollution, I demand you take it back. Unlike even some permanent residents (especially in Yokosuka) I've met there, I apply Japanese rules and manners and don't do anything that might offend or annoy anyone. This forum isn't Japan, so please don't think I'm being the same in Japan as on this forum. One reason would be: in Japan, unlike on an internet forum, nobody dares be so rude and offensive to someone who wronged nobody, as you are to me. You meet me with rudeness, I respond accordingly. Japanese people in Japan never met me with rudeness, I never responded rudely. Easy.

I have a combination of PMS, the flu, and would love to be at home in bed asleep but I came out of my misery to see the goofy foreigner who wants to be the next male/femaleJohn Blackthorne wannabe
Oh interesting, I didn't know men can have PMS. On the other hand, men who defend sex offenders can't morally be called real men anyways so maybe you do have PMS-like episodes :D
Btw, a Japanophile in my opinion, is someone who comes to Japan, expects all entertainment-made images of Japan to reflect reality, behaves very un-Japanese aka not respecting Japanese rules, manners and gestures, much less speaking the language beyond tourist level, and trying to find the Japan as shown in manga and jidaigeki.

had any kind of meaningful intercourse with any Japanese person beyond the "I'm fine thank you! And you!"

I was surprised what some Japanese people would tell you aloud and in a crowded place once they feel at ease.

@Megumi Kimoto
In that sense I am probably a “social regard.” Even though I am a Japanese, I always have a hard time figuring out what the other Japanese person is really feeling. That’s why I like a frank, outspoken environment.
"Social retard" was quite harsh and I apologize. KirinMan's unimaginable arrogance and passion to insult people just doesn't make my mood any better and I say things I don't mean.
But just like you, I like a frank and outspoken environment, and unlike KirinMan violently tries to establish as the one and only truth, such environments also exist in Japan, you just have to know where to look for them.

Btw @ Mods & Admins
I noticed that accusing people of lying is tolerated and words like sh*t are punishable by bans and restrictions, however please know that vulgar vocabulary isn't the only offensive form of speech. Accusing someone of lying in situations other than getting oneself or a friend out of trouble, is an unimaginably horrible insult to any person who takes pride in being honest.

@Frustrated Dave
Now you can take this with a grain of salt and keep on thinking that you are right in you judgment of "kuuki wo yomeru" and keep believeing what you want to
I never said yomeruing the kuuki (god lol gimme a translation please!) is enough to know it all, but up until now it has given me a good overall feeling of whether or not I was welcome. Whether they loved me to death or just found me okay, can't tell for sure, but while I'm not a Japan-expert and never claimed to be, I also rigorously and rightfully refuse to accept being called a total blinded idiot by knowitalls such as KirinMan.

[FrustratedDave]

And once again Otenba, you are missing the whole point... sigh...

Megumi Kimoto is Japanese and she admits that she can't tell what most Japanese people are really feeling, so how do you think you can do it in the short time you have been here? So let me put it this way, no matter how socially fluent you are in your own country, you will still be a social retard when in Japan for a long time.

[Otenba]

My own country have been alot of countries and cultures so far, Dave. I'm not one of those nicely settled people who spend most of their life in one or 2 places with one or 2 social environments.
And as I said, it also depends on the kind of environment you seek in Japan.
And I still wouldn't see how it can all be summed up by pure politeness to go as much farther than smalltalk than some of my encounters went.

Btw, being Japanese or not, you get more and less socially/culturally/whatever skilled poeple everywhere. I may be "German" but I don't know when the National Holiday is, so much for the argument of being from a country and having to know all about it.
Some Japanese people, and I am by no means saying Megumi or KirinMan are two of them, who post here, may be retreatees/hikikomori/otaku, have poor social lifes or bad experiences and convey an image of Japan just as warped as mine is said to be. I as a German, would tell anyone who asks what the Germans are like: they're cold, strict, pessimist people who complain all the time, and they have the worst bullies. Coming from a German, raised in Germany, fluent at the language, it must be the absolute truth, right? Well, some German and non-German people would disagree with me, yet that is my truth about "my" country but I'd never dare calling someone a liar or a dummy for disagreeing based on their own experiences, no matter how long or short they've been to Germany.

[FrustratedDave]

My own country have been alot of countries and cultures so far, Dave. I'm not one of those nicely settled people who spend most of their life in one or 2 places with one or 2 social environments.
And as I said, it also depends on the kind of environment you seek in Japan.
And I still wouldn't see how it can all be summed up by pure politeness to go as much farther than smalltalk than some of my encounters went.
Thats it, you can't tell . You may well have had a genuine deep and meaningfull conversation with someone that you met and may have made a friend for life, but you won't know that for a long time. I have had people who I will friends keep their guard up for over 5 years before they trusted me enough to really open up and talk to me and we went out as a group quite regulary.

[Otenba]

And I've never denied what you're saying, all I deny is being what KirinMan is calling me: a liar, a blinded japanophile, a dummy, a pollution to his country etc.
I never said I've made friends for life, all I said, and only I can know as Mr KirinMan the Great wasn't there with me, is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships.

[FrustratedDave]

And I've never denied what you're saying....

I never said I've made friends for life, all I said, and only I can know as Mr KirinMan the Great wasn't there with me, is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships.
But that was not the way you came across.

[Otenba]

Maybe that's because on MY side, anyone I feel like I can get along with, is welcome to become a friend :P
Or let's put it even easier. For the people I know personally (met in real life), I make 3 boxes.
Love-box (very crowded)
Hate-box (very empty)
Don't give a damn-box (uber-crowded)
Most people I met in Japan and had some memorable moments with, are in the Love box, very few in the Hate box, and everyone I had no meaningful encounter with, goes in the DGAD box. What box people put me in is of course up to them, but from my side, Love and even some DGAD box people are always welcome to come live under my roof.

[KirinMan]

And I've never denied what you're saying, all I deny is being what KirinMan is calling me: a liar, a blinded japanophile, a dummy, a pollution to his country etc.
I never said I've made friends for life, all I said, and only I can know as Mr KirinMan the Great wasn't there with me, is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships.Originally Posted by Frustrated Dave But that was not the way you came across.

Dave you are being quite the gentleman thank you.

I will have to say that trying to "talk" with Otenba is a lesson in :banghead: against a wall. It has finally dawned upon me that it comes from immaturity, insecurity and youthfullness that these comments come spewing forth.

Every little comment made in reply gets a finger nail scratching on the black board reply, however any comment that she makes must:rolleyes: be taken at face value.

Further proof is not respecting the comments made by Japanese members of the board who tried to tell her in their own polite way that she was wrong.

I like the comment she made here at the end...is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships. If she would have said that in the first place much of her :bawling: about what I wrote could have been avoided.

[KirinMan]

Some people are intuitive and may be able to sense other people’s feelings accurately (i.e., high EQ).
In that sense I am probably a “social regard.” Even though I am a Japanese, I always have a hard time figuring out what the other Japanese person is really feeling. That’s why I like a frank, outspoken environment. This is only my personal preference, and I am not saying one culture is better than the other. And my personal preference is shaped by my limited experience, which is not definite, and can change in future.
I learn a lot by hearing other people’s experiences.

Megumi Great post and I for one hope that Otenba gets this. I have serious doubts though.
Might I add here Megumi that being able to read a persons feelings has absolutely nothing to do with one's intelligence or lack of intelligence either for that matter.

I know plenty of "smart" people that are social doorknobs and plenty of so called "dumb" people that have more sense and are more sensitive towards peoples feelings and emotions than a Doctor.

The part that Otenba is going to miss in this post here is that as a Japanese person you are being very polite and trying to educate her that things are not so black and white as she thinks. It's a shame that she didnt get it.

[KirinMan]

"Social retard" was quite harsh and I apologize. KirinMan's unimaginable arrogance and passion to insult people just doesn't make my mood any better and I say things I don't mean.

Finally Otenba here.... Firstly you really need to look at the order of things here. Just a reminder I replied to your social retard comment after you wrote it.

Dont give me the credit for your misdirected anger, if you had thought about the comment before writing it there would have been no reply.

Btw @ Mods & Admins
I noticed that accusing people of lying is
Straight here this time. Grow up, noone called you a liar, just questioned the accuracy of what you were writing. Learn the difference. If I am going to call you a liar I will do it straight, I havent yet. The word liar comes too easily from your lips, I wonder if you actually know what it means. Ok now I await the dictionary definition sure to come....

I'm curious what that might be in your allmighty, absolute, globally accurate and undisputable opinion which represents the absolute truth of the earth, oh KirinMan-sama, reincarnation of Jesus and the 10 Commandments, word of God the allknowing
Damn straight and dont you forget it!:bravo::bravo:

Otenba I am going to give you some free advice here, get the chip off your shoulder and learn to read what people are writing and stop taking things so personally. It is painfully obvious that you dont realize it. You take everything someone writes here against you as a personal attack upon you, when you also fail to read the sarcasm included in the posts.

That tells me about your social immaturity. If you were to read the reply I made to you, the one you, in great detail:rolleyes: replied to, you would have seen that it was just written to make a point but no you took it as an attack upon you.

Otenba you are also quick to point fingers at others for your misunderstanding of what was written, yet you fail to point a finger at yourself when you are wrong or mistaken. You also do not reply to direct questions placed to you that put you in a difficult position that you can not make a reply to because it would call into question your overall responses in a thread. Not talking about here. But I use that as a further example of your coming across to me as being naeve.

Chill Otenba this is an internet forum, try to remember that.

[alantin]

How about getting back to the topic.. :okashii:

My previous question went unnoticed because of this.. exchange. :okashii:

[Megumi Kimoto]

You can find the report icon.....
...
Pipokun, thanks. I could not find the button to stop people from flaming, because I was reading the thread without logging in :p
Otenba, you do not have to apologize to me, because I did not find your comment offensive at all. On the contrary, I share similar feelings with you.

[KirinMan]

My previous question went unnoticed because of this.. exchange. :okashii:
Well let me take a crack at this one from personal experience, I take it this is the question you are refering to here?

Thinking like this also springs forth the following question: Would a foreigner easily be thought of as a non-potential friend because he is expected to go back home soon anyway..

Any thoughts on this?

In one of my previous jobs working as a contracted employee for a major well known Japanese company I actually had a fellow employee ask me; "Why should I spend any time or energy in getting to know you? You are only going to be here for a few years anyway?"

It was a rude thing to say, or so I thought so at first, but after discussing it with other friends and co-workers I came to the realization that the guy who said it was being truly honest with me. He wasnt meaning to be rude, but was being straight in asking me why should he have to put energy into a temporary relationship.

He wasnt saying he couldnt work with me, he wasnt saying he was not going to be polite, in fact he was and is a really nice guy. He just didnt feel comfortable as I found out from him later, about wanting to get to know someone as a friend and then have them disappear. He had that experience with a number of other foreign employees as well.

I was shocked at first, but in the long run it gave me much to consider in my relationships with other Japanese people. Was I willing to put the energy into being a friend as well. It's a two way street, and I thanked him a while afterwards for being honest with me about his feelings. We still stay in touch today.

So I dont know about others here, but I also think that the same could be said of people from any country.

[alantin]

@KirinMan

Thanks for sharing that! It really gave me something to think about.
I wonder if many people have similar experiences. It is interesting a Japanese person would come out with it so boldly, but then again. Perhaps it wasn't considered bold at all. A matter of fact kind of thing.. I have heard of many instances of a foreigner taking offense in something that wasn't intended to be offending at all.

It kind of sheds some perspective to how a japanese person would perceive a friend if it's not worth the effort to befriend a person that will be around for "only" a few years.

Still it also contributes to the uchi - soto concept making it even harder for a gaijin to get to the circles.

[FrustratedDave]

@KirinMan

It kind of sheds some perspective to how a japanese person would perceive a friend if it's not worth the effort to befriend a person that will be around for "only" a few years.

Still it also contributes to the uchi - soto concept making it even harder for a gaijin to get to the circles.
To add to Kirinman's post, I have found that most who want to be your friends are looking for something from you like a chance to speak english or something else. Of corse you can't say that everyone is looking for something, but I have found it to be very common.(the same can be said for any country I guess)

I have had people who have been introduced to me and insist on speaking english to me, but in the end I can't handle it and turn to Japanese. (you just can't have a meaning full conversation with someone who has the english skills of a kindergarten child) I have never seen people become that disinterested in me so fast. (I have met a few Japanese american expats, which of corse have great english. But converstations with them end up a jumbled mix of Japanese and english b/c some words just can't be replaced and it is easier speak the original word. It must be really funny to listen to conversations like that). But this is also another reason why it is hard for foreigners to become friends with Japanese, b/c most times their language skills are just not up to a deep and meaning full conversation. Which also leads to the fact that most foreigners don't have a real understanding of this culture ,so in the end people just don't give the person the support they are looking for.

[KirinMan]

I have had people who have been introduced to me and insist on speaking english to me, but in the end I can't handle it and turn to Japanese. (you just can't have a meaning full conversation with someone who has the english skills of a kindergarten child) I have never seen people become that disinterested in me so fast.
Dave.....ok first the pic, then the comment.:lol:
Damn the link didnt work....but anyway you hit the nail on the head.

http://www.pursuit.eu/rimages/hammare.jpg
Seriously now, I can relate to this in so many different ways. I have had people get down right fussy because I switched to Japanese to reply to them because their level of English was like you said a Kindergartener's but they thought they were able to understand what was being discussed and in the end things got screwed up because of their poor English abilities.

However I got the blame for their incompetence. Go figure. Just another example of some Japanese and their insistence of never being wrong, and the desire to protect their own image at whatever the cost.


Side note, off topic a bit reply here too.....
I will wait until they are both gone to heaven, God bless their souls, but I have some stories about my in-laws and this topic that I will someday openly discuss. Needless to say they are "out" there. In the future, in the future.....

[FrustratedDave]

Dave.....ok first the pic, then the comment.:lol:
Damn the link didnt work....but anyway you hit the nail on the head.
http://www.pursuit.eu/rimages/hammare.jpg
LOL, good one!
Seriously now, I can relate to this in so many different ways. I have had people get down right fussy because I switched to Japanese to reply to them because their level of English was like you said a Kindergartener's but they thought they were able to understand what was being discussed and in the end things got screwed up because of their poor English abilities.
However I got the blame for their incompetence. Go figure. Just another example of some Japanese and their insistence of never being wrong, and the desire to protect their own image at whatever the cost.

It doesn't really bother me anymore as I am sure it does not bother you either. So many times have been in a book store and someone will come up to me and start asking me questions in english. I will entertain this for a few minutes, but in the end I just politely say to them that I have to go b/c I forgot something or something to that effect. It is a bit of a pain b/c then I have to go down the road about half a mile to the next book store.LOL

[alantin]

LOL, good one!
It doesn't really bother me anymore as I am sure it does not bother you either. So many times have been in a book store and someone will come up to me and start asking me questions in english. I will entertain this for a few minutes, but in the end I just politely say to them that I have to go b/c I forgot something or something to that effect. It is a bit of a pain b/c then I have to go down the road about half a mile to the next book store.LOL


There is a good solution for this!

"Sumimasen ga eigo ha wakarimasen.." :blush:

[becki_kanou]

There is a good solution for this!

"Sumimasen ga eigo ha wakarimasen.." :blush:

Hard to pull off when you've got an English book right in your hand though...

Anyway, to get back on topic, my experience has been that Japanese people, like any people, just take time to get to know. Perhaps it takes a little longer to get to know someone than in other countries, perhaps not. Of course if you're new to Japan or don't know the language well it will take even longer.

For people who are new to Japan, sinnce many of the people who will approach you wanting to interact with you (and I'm assuming an English speaker here) will just be people seeking free English lessons, it's easy to get burnt-out on superficial friendships. However if your friendships are based on an interest you share, or some personality trait that you have in common you can have a deep and lasting relationship with someone just as easily as in your home-country.

I think someone else mentioned it before, but for me, I specifically avoided people who were interested in me as "the English-speaking foreigner" and made friends with non-English speakers who shared my hobbies and so consequently were interested in me as a person. To this day most of my good friends are just people who I happened to strike up conversations with at local restaurants and one of them has even become my business partner and visited my family in the US.

Of course, I have plenty of politeness only "nod-and-exchange-greetings, maybe-go-out-for-tea-sometimes" Japanese friends, but also quite a few deep, meaningful relationships, including my wonderful Japanese husband.

So my answer to the thread's main question is a big "No".

[Hezam]

i have one japanese friend and he is very very friendly and kind man.but it's really hard to make japanese friends ! i dont know why !! i was search on the web but i couldnt find even one !

[KirinMan]

i have one japanese friend and he is very very friendly and kind man.but it's really hard to make japanese friends ! i dont know why !! i was search on the web but i couldnt find even one !
There is a very good reason for this. And I wish all the people looking around the internet for Japanese friends would keep this in mind as well.

Find a Japanese site like Mixi. Dont take this wrong but here is something for you to consider. The language here in Japan is Japanese not English.

Oh and what do you mean by "friend". You can make plenty of friends here, they all arent Japanese, but we live in Japan.

[Hezam]

The language here in Japan is Japanese not English.
lol that makes me laugh and i like it,good comment :cool:
Oh and what do you mean by "friend". You can make plenty of friends here, they all arent Japanese, but we live in Japan.
well i will tell you something,here in Arabic world all Arab people respect japanese very much,they belive that japanese people has a great culture and high nobility of character and this nobility of character is the same with Arab,we know about japanese that they are truthful,faithful,carry out if they promise,...etc.
So they surely can be trusted..and i will be proud if i have japanese friends.
Hezam

[Otenba]

So they surely can be trusted

Yes Hezam, and there are those who abuse that reputation in order to cheat and deceive you in whichever way possible. Applicable to both cultures and anyone who mastered the art of lying with a straight face. I mean, THE daily (harmless) lie is "Moshiwakegozaimasen" & 97 bows when something's out of stock. Does a part-time girl really (need to) feel sorry or guilty that some unknown author's stupid book is sold out the day some dude wants it? Does she really think she is to blame? There goes the honesty.
Same goes for Arabian culture. I went shopping in Ramallah (big mistake). I asked the shopkeeper of a decent-looking supermarket whether that Narnia DVD, in Palestinian stores before being released in European theaters, is a legal copy. It obviously wasn't but it was fun to see him try anyways. "Yes, Madam, oh yes! YES! COME SEE MY SHOP!". Disc: DVD-RW with marker writing. Cover: bent. Cover sleeve: home printer that was running out of ink. Film: you see the crowd rise in front of the big screen towards the end credits.....

There goes your honest culture.

[FrustratedDave]

.... I mean, THE daily (harmless) lie is "Moshiwakegozaimasen" & 97 bows when something's out of stock. Does a part-time girl really (need to) feel sorry or guilty that some unknown author's stupid book is sold out the day some dude wants it? Does she really think she is to blame? There goes the honesty.
I thought you were just misinformed, but you really do know jack s**t about Japan don't you.

Actually, it could be good for you once and a while to get out of that buble of yours and experience the world. It is not that hard .... really.

[Otenba]

Oh I see, so those apologies are most sincere and those shop assistents cry themselves to sleep when a customer couldn't find what they came looking for 20 years after release. Interesting.

[becki_kanou]

Of course they're not sincerely crushed about being out of stock on some product, but it's their JOB to be polite to the customer. It has nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty; it's just good customer service.

[Megumi Kimoto]

.... THE daily (harmless) lie is "Moshiwakegozaimasen" & 97 bows when something's out of stock. Does a part-time girl really (need to) feel sorry or guilty that some unknown author's stupid book is sold out the day some dude wants it? Does she really think she is to blame? There goes the honest.....
I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, “someone” has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

[Hezam]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, 都omeone� has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.
yes that's true :cool:

[FrustratedDave]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, “someone” has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.
I think you are living in the wrong country...

[pipokun]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, “someone” has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

There used be a good tradition when you stepped someone's foot.
A: Excuse me for stepping your foot
B: Never mind, I am also sorry for being careless to have my foot stepped.

This is what you call Edo behaviors, sort of surviving tools in the overcrowded city like Edo.

I heard there is a joke in the UK (maybe my translation is not correct, though).
B: Never mind, I have a big foot.

[becki_kanou]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, “someone” has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

While this is definitely true in some situations, in other situtations, such as the one mentioned about a shop-clerk apologizing to a customer, I think it is necessary for "someone" to apologize even if that someone is not directly responsible for the situation.

I know that I for one would not be happy if the clerk at the shop said to me "We're out of that right now, but I don't particularly care so you'll have to take it up with Tanaka in the purchasing department." In fact I'd probably never visit that shop again. But if she simply replied, "I'm very sorry, but we don't have that now." I'd just say "Ok" and maybe come back again a few days later.

That's just smooth business operation. The person that you're dealing with may not be directly responsible for what happened, but does that mean that you shouldn't receive an apology at all because the person who is responsible is at the head office or somewhere?

[Pachipro]

Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, “someone” has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.
I think you are living in the wrong country...
Yes, someone usually does have to apologize in Japanese culture regardless of who is at fault. The point is knowing this and understanding that it really truly may not be coming from the heart, but may just be mechanical or superficial. However, in most cases, because of the culture and upbringing, it is in more cases than not, truly sincere. Once one understands this aspect of Japanese culture it becomes easier to get along and understand Japanese culture.

Personally, I like to hear an apology whether they really mean it or not because it conveys a sense of "sabisu" ("service") to the customer where, in a majority of cases, one usually gets a discount or some type of other "service" to atone for the mistake. Rarely will you even hear an apology in the US even when they know they are at fault and rarely will you even receive a discount or other type of "service" to show they are sincere about the customer or the fact that they have caused you an inconvenience unless you really make a "stink" or cause a scene.. A sharp person can usually tell whether the apology is sincere or not especially in their so-called "sabisu" to you or in their actions afterwards.

[alantin]

I think, a shop clerk not offering apologies in the described situation and just exhibiting the kind of attitude becki_kanou described, would not only be extremely rude but also very self centered and propably should not be working there.
Even far less would in my opinnion disqualify a person for this line of work!

If you serve customers for your living, you are not just hanging around to receive the money, but you represent the company and thus in some situations you need to offer apologises in it's behalf. There should be nothing strange about it!

Customer service is sometimes very rude here too and I especially like how things are in Japan in this respect.

[KirinMan]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, “someone” has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.


Megumi I think that this only depends on the situation. When it is Japanese on Japanese someone takes the blame.

However when it is a Japanese person that should be apologizing to a foreigner, or Japanese/Japan and the world....yeah right, fat chance. The attitude to me is like who care's.

I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it

My Dad always pounded into me that saying I'm sorry means that you are going to try your best never to do what you were apologizing in the first place for.

Megumi my sentiments are with Dave here, I too think you are living in the wrong country and maybe the wrong planet as well.

[Megumi Kimoto]

The topic of this thread is “Are Japanese people too polite to be your friends?”
So I should not have touched on a salesperson-customer situation in the first place.
I am sorry.
:relief:

[pipokun]

...
If you meet the Indian guy, ask him if he has started something new after he came to Japan.
...


Did you already ask him about the above?
His case seems a bit different as, you said, he mastered Japanese while he was in his home country.

How about his wife? When she is in trouble about the language here, I think you can do lots to her.

[FrustratedDave]

I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.
How about this situation. We are both customers at a restaraunt and I bump into you and you spill your drink, this was completely my fault. So I turn around and think "why the heck where you standing there anyway", and I don't feel it neccesary to apologise due to my pig headedness (or in better terms my rudeness) So I don't appologise b/c I won't mean it. How would that make you feel? No good I suspect, b/c you had done completely nothing wrong.

We need to consult reality and the reality is that if people were to only appologise when they mean it, some people would probably never appologise in their lifetime.

[JimmySeal]

I've come to learn that apologies are a really good thing. Even if they aren't entirely sincere, apologizing shows that the apologizer is thinking about the feelings of the apologizee, and even if the apologizer doesn't particularly care whether they've disturbed the other person's feelings or not, at least they're verbally acknowledging it, and that's better than nothing.

[Megumi Kimoto]

How about this situation. We are both customers at a restaraunt and I bump into you and you spill your drink, this was completely my fault. So I turn around and think "why the heck where you standing there anyway", and I don't feel it neccesary to apologise due to my pig headedness (or in better terms my rudeness) So I don't appologise b/c I won't mean it. How would that make you feel? No good I suspect, b/c you had done completely nothing wrong.
We need to consult reality and the reality is that if people were to only appologise when they mean it, some people would probably never appologise in their lifetime.
The situation above is about social manners among strangers in a public place.
However, this thread is about how it is possible to deepen a friendship with a Japanese acquaintance.

[ASHIKAGA]

this thread is about how it is possible to deepen a friendship with a Japanese acquaintance.

It is? In that case, the answer is simple. You just spend time getting to know each other. Some people believe that it is impossible to do so because they think that Japanese people are "too polite" while others don't.

Personally, I do not think that you have spent enough time with different people in different cultures to be able to make a fair comparison but you believe what you believe and I doubt that you will change your opinions by reading the posts by others who feel differently.

So, all I have left to say is that I am sorry you are unable to make real friends with Japanese people. It is too bad, really.... some of us make great friends once you get to know us.

[KirinMan]

So, all I have left to say is that I am sorry you are unable to make real friends with Japanese people. It is too bad, really.... some of us make great friends once you get to know us.
Just something to consider here Ahikaga, I am fairly certain that Megumi is Japanese herself.

If you take that into consideration along with your comments what does that say about all the foreigners that have problems making friends here or complaining about it here.

If a Japanese person cant make friends with a Japanese...........

[ASHIKAGA]

Just something to consider here Ahikaga, I am fairly certain that Megumi is Japanese herself.
If you take that into consideration along with your comments what does that say about all the foreigners that have problems making friends here or complaining about it here.
If a Japanese person cant make friends with a Japanese...........

A Japanese person who has lived here for a long time finding it impossible to befriend another is a totally different thing than a foreigner with a limited understanding of the Japanese people/culture who feels the same way.

I think it is quite natural that it is harder for a foreigner in Japan (or a Japanese in foreign countries) to make "true" friends when there is that cultural/language barrier. Now, a Japanese person, Megumi, saying that Japanese people are too polite to be your friend, tells me more about the chip on her shoulder than the inability to "be real" on Japanese people's part.

I ask once again, "Japanese people are too polite/two-faced/fake when it comes to dealing with other people" compared to WHOM!? Does she have the same grasp on other cultures/peoples to make that comparison/statement?

Since Megumi only can speak from her own experience, I will do the same and say that I have very good friends who are Japanese whom I love and trust, and I do not think I am one of the only few Japanese people who do.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I appreciate it when people refrain from starting a flaming war.
Living in a foreign country is a challenging experience.
Comments about your experience are helpful for those who are considering to visit here.

[GodEmperorLeto]

This really comes down to honne and tatemae. It's hard for Japanese to let anyone in because of the fear for disturbing harmony. Remember, historically speaking, Japan has been a caste-based society with complex rules of etiquette that seek to preserve social harmony and order. These things create a sense of rank and place and sometimes letting the fur fly rocks the boat far too much for their comfort.

I've seen two interesting reactions of Japanese who come to study in the U.S. One is a slow, gradual opening up, realizing that Americans also have honne and tatemae, but that they are expressed differently, and that we are much more prone to drop tatemae and let our actual opinions emerge at a moment's notice. These Japanese are usually still reserved, and sometimes uncomfortable with the strange, chaotic mess of conflicting opinions, and oftentimes return to Japan with a sense of comfort in the Confucian ideal.

The other is the Japanese student that, after a period of culture shock (sometimes severe), completely drops tatemae altogether and embraces Western expression. These run the gamut (based on personality) from really laid-back to absolutely manic about assimilation. I knew one girl who "went native" and is beating frantically at getting American citizenship because she desperately wants to be an American, hates Japanese society and never wants to go back, but she's an extreme case. Most of those who get comfortable with Western expression make friends fast, learn to be vocal with their opinions, feel comfortable with others' opinions (even if they conflict), and often decide to stay and try to live and work in the U.S. (but not always get citizenship, as they still identify with Japan).

Making friends in Japan is going to be a lot of the former, because acting opinionated is going to burn a lot of bridges, even if you don't mean to do so. If you want to make friends, remember that everybody exists in a power-structure, and it helps if you figure out what your rank is and behave accordingly. Although you are gaijin and outside the system, it nevertheless helps to find a spot in the pecking order, because it helps them relate to you more effectively. And be patient.

And alcohol gives people free tickets to honesty. A lot of people become all honne when inebriated.

Keep in mind, however, that I'm speaking from a second-hand position and don't live (and haven't yet lived) in Japan, so take it with a grain of salt.

[bakaKanadajin]

And alcohol gives people free tickets to honesty. A lot of people become all honne when inebriated.


Truer words have never been spoken.
Just tonight at a snaku a friend and I sang karoke and drank with a high-ranking police officer of my local ward. (We found out he was a cop during an arm wrestling competition; long story). When it was time to leave my friend attempted to help him into the waiting cab, and was promptly pushed aside as if they'd never met. My friend was quite annoyed at the sudden change in attitude but, as I tried to explain it to him, public face and private (drunken) face are two completely different things.

Generally speaking, the people you spend the most amount of time with in any culture are easier to consider as friends. When friendships are new and not as solidified by time gone by, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's.

[Megumi Kimoto]

I gained a lot of wisdom from this thread.
Thank you all who posted here in a constructive way. :beer1:
Now, I have more concrete questions.
Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are hospitalized?
Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are imprisoned?

[gaijinalways]

I would have to agree with a lot of people it takes time to make friends anywhere. Finding people with like interests and who can share time with you is difficult sometimes. The Japanese operate under different cultural rules, but one aspect of how long you'll be staying does seem to be a constant in a lot of the minds I have met. Though to be honest, you get this from foreigners here in Japan too sometimes.

[Pachipro]

Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are hospitalized?
Yes I do and probably have about three who would visit me if I were hospitalized, although I was never hospitalized, yet.

Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are imprisoned?
If I were convicted in a court of law and sentenced, yes, I have a couple of friends who would even visit me in prison regardless of the charge, even if it were for murder. That's how close we are. However, if I were just arrested and no one knew where I was they could not possibly visit me as we are not allowed a phone call until we are charged or let go.

Real friends are like family. They stick with you regardless. I believe I have those types of friends in Japan and they have come through.

[Roboto-sama]

I'm pretty sure we all agree on this when I say there is no such thing as "true friends".

I'm probably going to get flamed for this.

[Charles Barkley]

You are pretty sure you all agree and you will get flamed? Good reasoning there champ.

[alantin]

Yeah!
I would like to hear the reasoning behind that too!

Why there is no such thing as "true friends" and what is the statement based on? You gotta agree, it is quite a thing to say about all the people of the planet!
And why would everybody here agree?

I take it you're going through some tough times, Roboto-sama.
I hope, you'll find some true friends if you don't feel you have them yet!

[Megumi Kimoto]

I'm pretty sure we all agree on this when I say there is no such thing as "true friends"...
As this is Japan Forum, let us relate it to Japan, shall we? I checked how Japanese people might respond to this. Here is what I found on Yomiuri Newspaper’s bulletin board (http://komachi.yomiuri.co.jp/)
(Rough translation)
Comment by a Japanese woman: “I cannot trust other people. People betray each other. My family is dysfunctional. There is no such thing as a friendship. When something troubles me, I cannot consult with my pals, because they will gossip about me behind my back. I feel terrible, as I cannot trust other people. I do not feel happiness. How can I start trusting other people?
To this, there were 13 replies by Japanese viewers. The following is the summary:

If some private matters trouble you, never consult your friends. Instead, solve the trouble by yourself – consult books, or travel. Be independent.
People can be underhanded, unethical and dangerous, but a human being cannot live alone. Unless you trust other people, other people don’t trust you. You’ll meet someone you can trust someday. Take heart.
Like attracts like. If you become a trustworthy person, trustworthy people gather around you.
No one is perfect. Other people may fall short of your expectation from time to time, but give them some allowance.
Consult a professional counselor.
Some people are always flippant, and some always serious. If you have your own philosophy, you’ll meet a true friend someday.
Depth of a friendship depends on the number of serious interactions involving one’s experience.

Hope this will help.

[Ayumi_K]

Yeh, in way true. I just think that is how Japanese people are. Lot of time they don't say what's on their heart. It doesn't make them less a person though~
like american, we will openly express our feelings and I think it might be overbearing cuz its just not what they are used to as a whole~ xD
I think it jus has to do with difference in culture n location basically, cuz I have NO problem with my asian-american friends~ lol ^0^

[bluepilot]

Just the other day I rang my friend in Kobe and she said 'moshi moshi, moshi moshi' in the most beautiful Japanese I have ever heard...then, when she realised it was me, slipped back into her Kansai dialect...I had never noticed how terrible the Kansai dialect can sound until that day...

I have met many Japanese people who are polite to a point of coldness but I also have three friends who I would not swap for the whole world.

We are very close friends but I think that the case is slightly exceptional because we were in a sports club together (so, since I joined there was that sense of 'uchi' we were doukyuusei and saw each other almost everyday. Even when I got into a flight with another club member, they stood by my side (even though he was handsome, Japanese and they had known him longer) and I have never had such honest and loyal friends my whole life.

However, I think that under these circumstances, we became close friends but under other circumstances we would not have gotton to know each other.

Also, it took a lot of time to become friends. In that time I had to improve my Japanese a LOT and get beyond the normal conversation.

So, even though Japanese people have this cold politeness to them, I still think it is possible to make friends. But also extremly difficult.

I think that probably one of the most important things is to be in the 'uchi'..not necessarily accepted (because I do not think that you will ever me fully accepted) but neverthe less in

[maushan3]

It is very weird since I lived there and on my stay I don't think I hd a single real Japanese friend. I got over it and just did my thing with the other foreigners who most of them might be the best friends that I could ask for.

Then my departure time came and suddenly a lot of Japanese started giving me appreciation letters, gifts and whatnot. Oh, and these were the people who I searched for during the year but were too busy all the time to hang out or I don't know. And now back home in Mexico, I get sudden e-mails from Japanese ex-classmates asking how I'm doing, etc. and I even got some parcels with gifs from these people.

I think it is very weird, kind of a contradiction.


Also, it took a lot of time to become friends. In that time I had to improve my Japanese a LOT and get beyond the normal conversation.
I came to the conclusion that while Japanese is important, it won't guarantee you getting in their inner circle of friends.


So, even though Japanese people have this cold politeness to them, I still think it is possible to make friends. But also extremly difficult.
I think that probably one of the most important things is to be in the 'uchi'..not necessarily accepted (because I do not think that you will ever me fully accepted)
Another remark I have to make... it is a lot easier to chat and just converse with Japanese who are involved in student exchange programs and if you click it is quite easy to make a real friend in Japan.

One example is that I have a Swiss friend currently going to high school in Kyoto and people were all nice but he didn't consider them friends whatsoever. Well, he met other Japanese high schol guys from an international school who had a more liberal way of thinking. (e.g. They don't wear school uniforms) And these guys were very different from my friend's school's people. He hangs out with them because they are a lot more down-to-Earth than your regular Japanese and he considers them real friends.

Mauricio

[nova]

I have never been close with the few japanese people I have met, so I wouldn't know about that. But from what I've heard from people who been there, seems to me like people are less obvious about their feelings and tend to loosen up a bit a while after having met you.