Flash Card Question

[Ryuk]

Hi, I recently bought flash cards in an attempt to learn more kanji because I really don't know that many.

So I bought Tuttle Kanji Cards Vol. 1. My question is: on the back of the cards there are the two pronounciations of the kanji - the kun'yomi and on'yomi. I know the kun'yomi are the Japanese readings, so should I just be learning these, or should I learn the on'yomi as well?
The on'yomi for kanji all seem so similar, I tried remembering some but they just don't stick as easily as the kun'yomi that i'm used to relating to those kanji.

Thanks for any advice :-)

[Soloistic]

You will need to learn them both. Normally when a kanji is by itself, used in a name　or incorporates okurigana, it uses the くんよみ reading, but when its combined with other kanji it usually takes the オンヨミ reading. （Not all the time, but usually)

For example, 日　on its own would be pronounced (ひ), but when it is used in compound like　日曜日　(　にちようび　)

Not sure if this example helped but its the only thing I can think up right now.

[nice gaijin]

Although some kanji are more often pronounced one way than another, both readings are most definitely used, and you would be doing yourself a disservice to ignore either one.

Personally, I find onyomi to be easier, because often characters that share radicals will also share readings. Onyomi is easier to predict than kunyomi, especially when you encounter a word for the first time.

[Kirakira1232]

There is the kun and onyomi but there are also special readings for names too. Knowing the readings is one thing but finding when each is appropiate sometimes takes a bit of trial and error. I know when I read out a loud my Japanese teacher points out I've used the incorrect reading...(sometimes quite often...lol).

Some kanji have only the on reading because they are only really found in compounds and the original Japanese reading was lost.

In any case...

がんばってください〜！

[tada]

Both are important. There are many times I knew one reading but not the other, and really wished I knew the other.

on-readings become easier after a while though. Some examples:

泉　線 - both have on-reading of セン. Notice the second kanji's right half is 泉, exactly the first kanji.

白　泊　迫 all are read ハク. There are many more with 白 in them that are read the same.

[Ryuk]

Ahhhh, okay thanks guys that was really helpful.

So basically with on'oymi, when you have kanji which contain the same radicals they sometimes share the same pronounciations (or similar at least)?

[Glenn]

Well, they aren't really the radicals: they're the phonetic components. The radicals give meaning, and the phonetic component gives clues to the reading (on'yomi). About 85% of the characters were made like that, so it comes in handy.

[Elizabeth]

Hi, I recently bought flash cards in an attempt to learn more kanji because I really don't know that many.
So I bought Tuttle Kanji Cards Vol. 1. My question is: on the back of the cards there are the two pronounciations of the kanji - the kun'yomi and on'yomi. I know the kun'yomi are the Japanese readings, so should I just be learning these, or should I learn the on'yomi as well?
The on'yomi for kanji all seem so similar, I tried remembering some but they just don't stick as easily as the kun'yomi that i'm used to relating to those kanji.
Thanks for any advice :-)
You'll have to start by returning them for a product that looks like it wasn't designed by the people it's trying to teach. :p Seriously. Tuttle puts out a lot of great things but I've seen what you're getting and believe me flash cards are definately not their forte. :okashii:

[tada]

You'll find each kanji has a "main" radical; they usually don't give the reading, but they do connect similar kanji.

The さんずいへん, which is the kind of half-width シ on the left side, means the kanji has to do with water. Off the top of my head:

泳　(swim)
涼　(cool)
清　(pure)
流　(to flow)
洗　(to wash)

[Elizabeth]

You'll find each kanji has a "main" radical; they usually don't give the reading, but they do connect similar kanji.

The さんずいへん, which is the kind of half-width シ on the left side, means the kanji has to do with water. Off the top of my head:

泳　(swim)
涼　(cool)
清　(pure)
流　(to flow)
洗　(to wash)
And then there's like 10-15 subdivisions within "water" determined by how the rest of the kanji divides up. But the biggest area of exception, probably a quarter of those have meanings are completely unrelated to any kind of liquid. :relief:

Modern kanji finding is very much a non-intuitive process, unfortunately.

[tada]

True, and some kanji simply don't make sense. 音, for example. 立 on top of 日 somehow means "sound". A friend of mine made a mnemonic, "if you stand above the sun it makes a sound". Strangely enough, these nonsensical combinations are sometimes easy to remember because of their weirdness.

[Glenn]

Well, I don't think it's actually 立+日. From what I can gather from 漢字源's explanation, it's 言 with a dot in the 口 part, and the top got simplified to 立 (though that isn't explicitly stated in the explanation). 言 shows the pronunciation of words that have a clear distinction. By adding the dot in the 口, it shows words that get mumbled together, just making a sound.

Here's the actual 解字 from 漢字源:

会意。言という字の口の部分の中に、 •印を含ませたもの。
言は、はっきりとけじめをつけたことばの発音を示す。音は、その口に何かを含み、ウーと含み声を出すことを 示す。

[Elizabeth]

Well, I don't think it's actually 立+日. From what I can gather from 漢字源's explanation, it's 言 with a dot in the 口 part, and the top got simplified to 立 (though that isn't explicitly stated in the explanation). 言 shows the pronunciation of words that have a clear distinction. By adding the dot in the 口, it shows words that get mumbled together, just making a sound.

Here's the actual 解字 from 漢字源:

会意。言という字の口の部分の中に、 •印を含ませたもの。
言は、はっきりとけじめをつけたことばの発音を示す。音は、その口に何かを含み、ウーと含み声を出すことを 示す。According to Kenneth Henshall in this book "A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters" 音　is from the old form of speak (言) with the bottom as 口 (a line for the tongue in the mouth to show greater vocalization -- shouting/singing, etc which led to sound) and the top an earlier depiction of 立。

Suggested mnemonic : Sound of the rising sun.

[Emoni]

Understand also, that kanji in CONTEXT is very important. Just seeing the reading, the kanji by itself, and maybe a few word compounds won't work too well. You're going to have to see it really used, and use it yourself, before it will become "real" to you.

[Glenn]

According to Kenneth Henshall in this book "A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters" 音　is from the old form of speak (言) with the bottom as 口 (a line for the tongue in the mouth to show greater vocalization -- shouting/singing, etc which led to sound) and the top an earlier depiction of 立。

By "the old form of speak (言)," did you mean the old form of 音 comes from "speak" (言)? If not, can you post a link or a pic to the old form of 言?

[Elizabeth]

By "the old form of speak (言)," did you mean the old form of 音 comes from "speak" (言)? If not, can you post a link or a pic to the old form of 言?
No, the reverse. According to Henshall at least, there was an earlier form of 音 that looks essentially like 辛 (needle/skewer) with the long middle line forming the top of a more rounded 口. It is this that evolved into 言.

The original writing for 言 was the pictograph of two physical objects, a smiling open mouth (expressing either "mouth" or "opening"/"hole" /"container") underneath an upside down triangle. Maybe someone can find a descriptive link to these elements that will explain the combination in a more productive, understandable light.

I tried searching but to no good end. :blush:

[Glenn]

Ah, well, thanks for the effort. I guess I'll see what I can find then. :bow:

[Glenn]

Well, I didn't find a picture either, but it did occur to me that I could just look the character up, and it gives a similar description: 辛 (a blade that leaves a mark and) 口 -- covering the mouth and mumbling is 音/諳, and pronouncing with clearly marked divisions is 言.

My translation sucks, so here's the original:
会意。「辛（きれめをつける刃物）＋口」で、口をふさ いでもぐもぐいうことを音（オン）・諳（アン）といい 、はっきりかどめをつけて発音することを言という。

[Elizabeth]

Well, I didn't find a picture either, but it did occur to me that I could just look the character up, and it gives a similar description: 辛 (a blade that leaves a mark and) 口 -- covering the mouth and mumbling is 音/諳, and pronouncing with clearly marked divisions is 言.
My translation sucks, so here's the original:
会意。「辛（きれめをつける刃物）＋口」で、口をふさ いでもぐもぐいうことを音（オン）・諳（アン）といい 、はっきりかどめをつけて発音することを言という。
Oh, thanks, Glenn ! This is interesting. Where did it come from ? The leap from 辛 sharp/needle/blade to good enunciation or articulation eventually leading to
a variant of 音 and then 言　I still don't get but maybe that's because the theories are still being established. It makes more sense now, though, if this means the upside triangle pictograph for the original 言 was a very primitive form of 辛。

辛 I've read was also written with a straight line over the top in place of the vertical dash which makes clearer how it could have evolved into 言。　

[Glenn]

I have 漢字源 in my 電子辞書, and that's pretty much the only character dictionary I use lately.　I have a copy of 新漢語林, but not with me. I think that one may have bone inscriptions, though, but I don't remember exactly.

Anyway, as far as 辛 goes it's supposedly just a pictogram of a sharp blade shown stabbing. Here's the explanation given for that one:

象形。鋭い刃物を描いたもので、刃物でぴりっと刺すことを示す。転じて、刺すような痛い感じの 意。

[Elizabeth]

I have 漢字源 in my 電子辞書, and that's pretty much the only character dictionary I use lately.　I have a copy of 新漢語林, but not with me. I think that one may have bone inscriptions, though, but I don't remember exactly.
OK, you might find interesting then a Japanese language 図説 漢字の成り立ち辞典 like the one I have because it does give detailed inscriptions along with 150 1-2 page accounts covering the history of related characters. Information for 言 and 舌 falls under "音と声”　I just didn't find my copy until late last night and haven't had a chance to go through it all very thoroughly yet. :-)

http://www.7andy.jp/books/detail/-/accd/18887526

[Toritoribe]

甲骨文字 of 言

7470

音
もと、言に同じ。のち、これと区別し、口の中に一画を加え、音を変えて、調子をつけた音声の意 に用いる。

言
もと、口と音符(辛。心の意。一説に、美しく整う意)とから成り、口からの心のあらわれ、「ことば」の意を 表す。

from 新字源


However, there is another quite different (unique) theory by 白川静 (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%99%BD%E5%B7%9D%E9%9D%99). He considered this 口 (used in 言, 右, 吉 etc) should be distinguished from 口 as a mouth, and supposed it as "祝詞を入れる器; a vessel for prayer writings".
He interpreted that 言 was made from two parts, the lower part as a vessel and the upper part as a needle with a handle for tattooing. So 言 is not just a "word", but the "promise" to the gods to accept the tatoo as a penalty if the person doesn't keep the promise...

Anyway, 音 and 言 has the same origin.:-)

[Glenn]

Yeah, I had heard about the prayer vessel hypothesis before, but I didn't think it applied to all instances of 口. I actually got to look at a copy of 字統 when I was in Japan, though. It's pretty amazing, but I didn't look at it too long. It was more of a satisfying the curiosity and touching the real thing sort of deal, because I was busy with other stuff.

It's interesting the different hypotheses there are about character origins -- I just read about differing hypotheses in different books regarding 杮（こけら）and 柿（かき）on 暁に死す (http://www.akatsukinishisu.net/kanji/kokera2.html).

Thanks for the info!

[Elizabeth]

甲骨文字 Of 言
7470
音
もと、言に同じ。のち、これと区別し、口の中に一画を加え、音を変えて、調子をつけた音声の意 に用いる。
言
もと、口と音符(辛。心の意。一説に、美しく整う意)とから成り、口からの心のあらわれ、「ことば」の意を 表す。
From 新字源
However, There Is Another Quite Different (unique) Theory By 白川静 (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%e7%99%bd%e5%b7%9d%e9%9d%99). He Considered This 口 (used In 言, 右, 吉 Etc) Should Be Distinguished From 口 As A Mouse, And Supposed It As "祝詞を入れる器; A Vessel For Prayer Writings".
He Interpreted That 言 Was Made From Two Parts, The Lower Part As A Vessel And The Upper Part As A Needle With A Handle For Tattooing. So 言 Is Not Just A "word", But The "promise" To The Gods To Accept The Tatoo As A Penalty If The Person Doesn't Keep The Promise...
Anyway, 音 And 言 Has The Same Origin.:-)
とりとりべさんが投稿してくれた字と同じような「舌」の元の字の一部も、実際にイレズミのしるしですね。イ レズミとは罪を犯した人に与える罰です。うそをつくと舌を抜かれるよ、とは子供を諭すいいだそうです。?? ? :p 　

真実を語るのが正しいと信じていますよね。　:relief:　

[Toritoribe]

Yeah, I had heard about the prayer vessel hypothesis before, but I didn't think it applied to all instances of 口.
あ、また英訳が適切じゃなかったみたいですね。:p言おうとしたのは
白川静は、今までくち(a mouth)だと思われていた"口"は「くち」ではなく「器」だと考えた。
という内容だったんですが。う～ん、やはり日本語で書けばよかった。。。:relief:

[Glenn]

ちょっと待って、（a mouse）はタイプミスじゃなかったというんですか。 失礼ですが、彼女がよく犯す間違いですから（「th」を「s」と発音したり綴ったりすること） 、 てっきりそれをタイプミスだと思い込んで、「口」が「mouth」だと打つつもりだと思ったん です。 ですが私の誤解らしいですね。私がその「口」がある時「口」で、ある時「器」だと思っていたのは上記のTo ritoribeさんの書き込みのせいなんかじゃありませんよ。Toritoribeさんの英語がとても上 手で分かりやすいと思いますよ。

これで誤解が解けたといいですね。

[Toritoribe]

あ、ほんとだ。中学生みたいなtypoまでやってるんです ね。:pもちろんネズミのことなんかじゃないです。 :sorry:
これはさすがに恥ずかしいので直しておきます。 :relief:

[Elizabeth]

あ、また英訳が適切じゃなかったみたいですね。:p言おうとしたのは
白川静は、今までくち(a mouth)だと思われていた"口"は「くち」ではなく「器」だと考えた。
という内容だったんですが。う～ん、やはり日本語で書けばよかった。。。:relief:
「器」という字は、「口」四つと「大」とでできているみたいですね。でも、実は、口に囲まれた部分は「大」 じゃなくて、「犬」となっているようですね。その問題を解きたいんですが、ストレートな話が多 い
英語に慣れているので、ちょっとわかりにくいですよね。「器」には、イレズミ、神様、犬、お祈 り、口、
食べ物に向かってまいしんする犬、などが含まれるでしょう。。。もう、頭痛いなああ。:(
↑いかにも、ありそうなことですね。　:relief:

[Glenn]

また漢字源の解字ですが、その「犬」に関してはこう書かれています：
「犬は種類の多いものの代表として加えた。」

なぜそうなのか私にも分かりませんが、古代中国では雑種を飼っていたでしょうか。:p

[Elizabeth]

また漢字源の解字ですが、その「犬」に関してはこう書かれています：
「犬は種類の多いものの代表として加えた。」

なぜそうなのか私にも分かりませんが、古代中国では雑種を飼っていたでしょうか。:p
The real meaning of 狗 (left side only?) 犬 大 is no doubt lost forever to time. But from what I understand through 図説 漢字の成り立ち辞典 and elsewhere, these are a few of the viable theories : an opened mouthed dog that was waiting for his long overdo dish to be delivered/begging, a dog that watched over his owners plates and saucers....and for the evolution of characters, others of the more macabre variety centering on human sacrifice with the arms in a spread position 大, patterned after dog to god offerings perhaps)...:p