What ARE your legal rights in Japan as a foreigner?

[Emoni]

This question comes up indirectly in many ways on this forum. Do you have the right to be stopped and asked for your gaijin card or bicycle registration if you are not told you are suspected of a crime? Do you get a "phone call?" If you are arrested, what are your rights... do you even have any?

I think this is a question that almost everyone going to Japan and has heard a few horror stories wonders about. I know I have heard various broken statements on one's rights in Japan, but never quite knowing if they are accurate.

I especially started to wonder after reading these two threads.

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20256

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38574

So, here is my question, and I expect only a few would know the answers: What are one's legal rights in Japan in common situations such as those above. If you are arrested, or worse. Are there any sites that deal with such topics specifically listing need-to-know rights for foreigners?

Even in the United States I feel this is an important topic, and even more so in Japan where rights are often even more limited...

[Mike Cash]

The police can stop foreigners or anyone else for 職質　（職務質問). Refusing to cooperate constitutes interfering with an officer in the performance of his duties and you shouldn't be surprised if you are "asked" to accompany them to the police box or police station (任意同行). Though often construed by foreigners as being "arrested", technically this is not an arrest.

You do not have the right to a phone call. You do not have the right to a lawyer unless and until you have been charged with a crime. This will be after the police have compiled a 調書 on your situation. That particular document is for all practical purposes a confession (hence the astronomical conviction rate). Pre-trial release is almost entirely at the whim of the prosecutor, who typically will not agree to a pre-trial release without a confession (hence the astronomical conviction rate). You do have the right to remain silent.

For an excellent Japanese book which explains the whole process in detail for the layman, I highly recommend 逮捕られたどうなる？ (http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/books/nonfiction/crime/author/azuchi_shigeru/paku.htm). I recommend it, but to the best of my knowledge no one has ever displayed the genuine interest necessary to tackle reading it.

As a foreigner, you do have the right to have your embassy/consulate notified of your detention (arrested or just being questioned) and it is in your best interest to have them notified. Otherwise you will have no one even remotely on your side during the majority of the process. You do not have the right to a phone call, and the police are under no obligation to notify anyone that they are detaining you (arrested or not) and are similarly under no obligation to even acknowledge that they are holding you should someone contact them and ask if they have you or not.

[Emoni]

Thank you Mike, that was extremely educational.

My Japanese low so my ability to read a book such as that is probably very low, especially due to the legal speak that I would assume exists in it. Still, I'm going to keep that title in mind during my next trip to the book store in Japan.

I'm curious how you came to learn about this? And still if there are any sites that exist in English (even Japanese is fine) for describing more detail of the situations you mentioned.

It seems that even if what I heard about having the right to deny showing your gaijin card, you still get hauled in for not cooperating. Therefore, if that previous information is even correct it gives a false impression by far. Not that I have any intentions of starting a protest or "rebelling" in anyway based on information, but I did feel I should know a bit about what I might run into someday if anything happened and I was caught in the middle of it.

Still, the more I learn the more I can see how faulty the system is and how easily it can be abused by the police.

In any case, while cooperating in action seems to be the best case. Cooperating and speaking still tends to be a great way to get one's self into trouble by saying anything. It still seems to be that if in a bad situation the best bet may in fact to simply shut the #$% up as fast as possible.

[orochi]

The 職務質問 (shokumu shitsumon) system, a police officer stopping you to ask questions, is a point of discontent. Just googling it brings up lots of pages where people are asking about the details and what they are required to in response.

A conversation could easily go like this with an officer:

Officer: Excuse me, what are you doing?
Person: Hello. What is the problem?
Officer: I'd like to know what you're doing.
Person: Am I under suspicion for anything?
Officer: No.
Person: Then I'd like to leave... (starts walking away)
Officer: Excuse me. I'm going to have to ask to see your ID.
(Oops, your kind compliance with the laws of the land has made the officer suspicious.)
Person: No. I am not under suspicion of any crime.
Officer: Then I'm going to have to take you to the station for interfering with police duties.

So yeah, be friendly with the cops. Everything is at their discretion, and any time it's you vs. a cop, the cop will win.

Mike,
The link you mentioned says the book is a follow up to Keimusho no Okite. Is that a good read as well? Should it be read first?

[Mike Cash]

Contrary to what the reactionary hot-headed brand of gaijins would have you believe, the best course of action if asked for your card is to fish it out of your wallet, present it, and politely cooperate with the officers. Greet officers with ご苦労様です, the standard greeting when speaking to officers any time day or night, be civil, speak Japanese to the best of your ability, and the odds are extraordinarily low that they're going to treat you any differently than they treat Japanese under the same or similar circumstances. They're minor bureaucrats, after a manner of speaking, and consequently would much rather resolve a situation with the least amount of subsequent hassle and paperwork to themselves that they can, consistent with still managing to faithfully perform their duties. They like to put in an easy, pleasant day at work and go home promptly at quitting time just as much as the next fellow.

Avoid wrongdoing and, as Caesar's wife, the appearance of wrongdoing. Hang out in bars/clubs or other such places where things can get a bit rowdy and one really has little cause to complain when the cops show up and take an interest in you. It's just plain common sense.

I've had numerous dealings with the Japanese police and have always found them to be courteous and professional. I've called either 110 or directly to local police stations many times. I've been inside several police stations on various matters. I couldn't begin to tell you the number of times I've called them out in the wee hours to come 保護 some sh*t-faced drunk Japanese person I've found passed out or otherwise in need of assistance, remaining on the scene until the cops show up, explaining what was going on, and then going on my merry way with no more from them than taking down my name and address....no request for a gaijin card.

The system does have its problems, but by and large the bulk of Japanese policemen get a totally undeserved bum rap from the gaijin community, who so far as I can tell love nothing more than to whine about how they got stopped on their bicycle "just for being a foreigner". As I've said other places, I have on many occasions sat in my truck and watched as the police did exactly the same thing to Japanese rider after Japanese rider after Japanese rider, in places and on streets (in Tokyo) where I have never seen an obvious foreigner.

Unfortunately, the average foreigner is almost totally ignorant of any aspect of the Japanese criminal justice system. Common complaints are:

folks saying they've been "arrested" when they in actuality have not

saying they've been in "prison" when they were detained during investigation and never even charged, much less convicted

complaining that they went to a police box and complained about something and the police did nothing....when they didn't file a 被害届出 to get the ball rolling

[Glenski]

Under normal circumstances, the police cannot stop just any foreigner under any conditions and demand I.D. They do, however, and they get away with it.

If they say, "we are told to do this because of the security of the G-8 summit going on right now", what are you going to do? Even Debito Arudou tried taking this to the police with a formal complaint, and he got shafted. Read about it on his site.

If they say, "we are stopping everyone/foreigners on bikes because of the possibility of theft in this area", what are you going to do? Some people b!tch about it online, and say they politely argued the situation with the cops, but lost out. One guy has been stopped hundreds of times (yes! really!) sometimes by the same cop!

If they say, "we have a right just because we are the police", they are wrong. If they say nothing more than this, YOU have the right to get THEIR I.D. but you do NOT have to show yours unless they give you a reason other than the above.

Now, how many people actually defy the "law" this way? Few. It's much easier to just show the alien card or driver's license and politely ask why they are doing it. Make friends, and in the conversation, bring up the fact that this may have happened to you a lot and you don't understand it. Take their picture and copy down badge numbers and names if you like. Show the pic to the next cop, whatever. If you want to crusade against human rights, you'd better know the law fairly well, have a phone number of people you can call on your at all times, and speak Japanese well.

Mike has been very helpful here, but I also think Mike speaks very good Japanese, so heed that point above all others. And NEVER EVER EVER lose your temper with the cops, even if you are in the right!!!!

[pipokun]

...
One guy has been stopped hundreds of times (yes! really!) sometimes by the same cop!
...

Just curious.
Where can I see the stupid cop?

[Glenski]

http://www.debito.org/index.php/?s=Butler

Start a few paragraphs in with this sentence.
"Let’s start with the racial profiling. Mark Butler (a pseudonym), a ten-year Caucasian resident of Japan and Tokyo University student, has been stopped by police a lot–117 times, to be exact."

[Mike Cash]

Take their picture and copy down badge numbers and names if you like.

Taking pictures is generally what A.A. Milne would orthographize as "A Bad Idea".

It is only recently that Japanese police even have badge numbers. They do not wear name tags, and good luck to you or anyone else who thinks a uniformed officer is going to tell you his name, especially under adversarial circumstances.

Officer NA192 on Patrol (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikecash/1651974281/)

One trick for getting a name, and it requires the ability to read kanji and doesn't always work, is to look on the handle of the cop's collapsible baton. Some of them use a label-maker and put their names on them.

[orochi]

Just in case it got lost in the posts above...

Mike,
The link you mentioned says the book is a follow up to Keimusho no Okite. Is that a good read as well? Should it be read first?

[pipokun]

http://www.debito.org/index.php/?s=Butler

Start a few paragraphs in with this sentence.
"Let’s start with the racial profiling. Mark Butler (a pseudonym), a ten-year Caucasian resident of Japan and Tokyo University student, has been stopped by police a lot–117 times, to be exact."

Thank you. He lives in Tokyo and he is a cyclist.
If the 117 time stop and qestion had been when he was a pedestrian, it must be a hell, but Tokyo, esp., office districts, is not a good place to ride.

I don't count exactly, but 3 or 4 times/a year bike checks are usual for me, though I only ride my bike to supermarkets or convini on weekends now.
A bit more than me.

[Pachipro]

As a foreigner, you do have the right to have your embassy/consulate notified of your detention (arrested or just being questioned) and it is in your best interest to have them notified. Otherwise you will have no one even remotely on your side during the majority of the process. You do not have the right to a phone call, and the police are under no obligation to notify anyone that they are detaining you (arrested or not) and are similarly under no obligation to even acknowledge that they are holding you should someone contact them and ask if they have you or not.
Mike hit the nail on the head very succinctly and explained it very well and saved me alot of typing as I couldn't have said it any better. While I'm not proud of it, as one who has been through the system from beginning to end I can confirm that:

- a phone call is not allowed until indictment or they release you.

- the police do not inform, nor do they have to inform, any of your family that you have been arrested. Only if a relative inquires to the police as to your whereabouts do they discover what happened as happened in my case.

- bail is not granted until you have been indicted and it is at the whim of the prosecutor.

-you can be held for up 20 odd days before being released or indicted.

In my case, I did not know about contacting the embassy. It was only when my mother tried to call me and did not receive any answer for 3 days did she contact the state department who contacted the embassy as she thought I might have died or been in an accident or something. Also, my wife's family contacted the police when she did not return home as planned or answered the phone when they called. It was a double whammy for us!

I received a visit from two embassy personnel at the jail where I was being held who just wanted to confirm that I was alive for the sake of my family back home. They informed me that they could be of no help whatsover, in any way, as this was a Japanese matter and I was subject to their laws and I was completely on my own. They did say that they would let my family know, which I did not want, but they had to do it.


I've had numerous dealings with the Japanese police and have always found them to be courteous and professional. I've called either 110 or directly to local police stations many times. I've been inside several police stations on various matters.

Same here, and even after being arrested, they were courteous and professional throughout the whole ordeal. I have a high respect for the Japanese police as a result of both my ordeals.


In any case, while cooperating in action seems to be the best case. Cooperating and speaking still tends to be a great way to get one's self into trouble by saying anything. It still seems to be that if in a bad situation the best bet may in fact to simply shut the #$% up as fast as possible.

My suggestion is, if you are arrested, and ONLY if you are arrested, and they have "the goods on you" (proof) and you are guilty, cooperate to the fullest extent and be honest, but DO NOT offer any additional information as IT WILL BE HELD AGAINST YOU! Your cooperation will go a long way with the prosecutor and judges. If you are innocent, hold to your guns and do not sign anything without it first being translated by an independent person regardless of what they tell you. If you are innocent and do not sign a "confession" you will be released.

And to confirm what has also been said, if you are stopped on your bicycle or while walking, just cooperate, show them your passport or gaijin card and you will be on your way. Hassle them and you will be in for an experience you will not like. They may not have the right to stop you, but they will sooner or later. It's just the way it is. Also, DO NOT offer any other information.

I lived in Japan for 16 years continuously and I was stopped and asked for my gaijin card probably less that seven or eight times and stopped on my bicycle maybe double that. It was rare, and it was on one of those rare occasions when I did not have my gaijin card on me and you know the story. Unusual, but it happened exactly as described.

I have been also stopped at "drunk checks" a few times while in my car and nabbed for speeding once and, in neither of said cases was I asked for my gaijin card. Just my license.

As far as the guy who was stopped 117 times I believe he either looked like a criminal, acted suspicious, was baiting the police, or had the worst luck of any gaijin alive. Why can one person have that many stops and someone like myself who lived there much longer than he, have less than ten and I rode my bike almost everyday? Weird, but I wouldn't doubt it as anything can happen to anyone at anytime.

[alantin]

I wonder, why do people think the police is their enemy and that they need to defy them. Their job is to enforce everyones safety (including you and me!) and to in order to do that, sometimes they need to ask questions. If you haven't done anything, why should you be afraid of them? And if you haven't done anything, they don't know that and thus, they ask!

Even though I had read the horror stories and all the time expected the cops to rush after me demanding for my ID the only time I had any contact with the law enforcement in Japan was in Kyoutou when I asked a cop for directions and he looked like HE wanted to run away from me and was clearly relieved when I finally left him alone.
I spoke Japanese to him but he seemed to use up his whole English vocabulary when answering and his expression was gold when I confirmed in Japanese if I had understood him right. :lol:

[Emoni]

I'm glad to see so many very informative posts here. As Mike said, most foreigners are ignorant of how the legal system is in Japan and understandably so. Moreover, some of the laws and regulations on detainment, and twisting of rules for cooperating with the police even when it is illegal for them to ask for ID unless you are suspected is an awful situation. By legal reasoning, I would expect that refusing to go along with illegal activity is absolutely justifiable. As for detainment, being detained for days on end for "questioning" which like other systems that the police have entire control over is what I call imprisonment, especially if you cannot even contact outside people. To be at the absolute mercy of a legal system when you aren't even charged or have done anything wrong, nor been proven to have done so is frightening.


I do not see the police as enemies. However, as anyone else would, I want to know as much as possible to keep myself safe from a system that is clearly imbalanced and holds too much power that is easily abused at a whim.

Knowledge is power, power to keep yourself both out of a bad situation and get out of one.

On that note, what can one do when:

1: Is told to come along to a nearby police station. What is the best way to handle it and why?

2: Is the victim of an actual crime. Other than filing a report what would be important?

3: Is in a situation where the police are clearly abusing their power (rare, but worth considering). While it has been defined that you have no rights, how would you contact your embassy? Would you simply have to wait out the period of detainment?

[alantin]

Of course I too do see the problems of the system as presented here.
Eager the hear people's thoughts on your questions!

It is your right to have your embassy notified, right?
Do the police truly not have to call the embassy or let you call if you ask to?

[Glenski]

Taking pictures is generally what A.A. Milne would orthographize as "A Bad Idea".I didn't say it was a stellar one, Mike. :)

It is only recently that Japanese police even have badge numbers.So? Ask to see it. They have to show you.

They do not wear name tags, and good luck to you or anyone else who thinks a uniformed officer is going to tell you his name, especially under adversarial circumstances.Don't get adversarial. Be polite and ask. You don't need to look for a name tag or his baton label. If you can't read the badge, act innocent and stupid and tell him you would like his name.


On that note, what can one do when:

1: Is told to come along to a nearby police station. What is the best way to handle it and why?Too general a situation for me. If you are going to work, say so. If you have some other sort of appointment, say so.

2: Is the victim of an actual crime. Other than filing a report what would be important?It may depend on the crime. Fortunately, I have not been the victim of any here.

3: Is in a situation where the police are clearly abusing their power (rare, but worth considering).Again, too general. I know you are trying to make a list of dos and don'ts, but you're going to have to play it by ear. Like I wrote earlier, the main point is to cooperate as much as possible and not lose your cool.

[Emoni]

I tried to be general for the sake of having general information on how to handle basic situations for a start.

As for cooperating and staying cool. I think that is definitely the best first option... but at the same time, knowing when to shut up can be equally important.

[KirinMan]

but at the same time, knowing when to shut up can be equally important.
I think that has been covered fairly well here, dont volunteer anything, but if asked a question be polite, answer it and go on.

[Emoni]

I think that has been covered fairly well here, dont volunteer anything, but if asked a question be polite, answer it and go on.

... which is why I agreed? I'm not sure the purpose of your post.

Moreover, while covered in practice it can be a different thing. Most importantly, is knowing WHEN and during what situation you need to be extra cautious is very important. It is very clear the police will do anything in their power (which is largely up to how they interpret that power it seems) to get you to try to get you to talk. So clarifying this issue by no mean does harm.

[Glenski]

Most importantly, is knowing WHEN and during what situation you need to be extra cautious is very important.
When? Anytime. We foreigners suffer the woes of being treated differently here. People have reported instances of trying to help Japanese people in trouble, and when the police arrived, they actually had to explain that they were not the perpetrators! Narrow-minded police.

Just be extra cautious at all times. Doesn't matter if you are dealing with a parking ticket, a mugging, a bicycle license issue, or worse.

[Taiko666]

Contrary to what the reactionary hot-headed brand of gaijins would have you believe, the best course of action if asked for your card is to fish it out of your wallet, present it, and politely cooperate with the officers

I did this, and I reckon that most people do this when their 'time' comes. However, being an absent-minded sort of person, I'm very uneasy with the legal requirement to carry it at all times. The possible consequences of leaving one's wallet at home are completely out of proportion to one's 'crime'.


complaining that they went to a police box and complained about something and the police did nothing....when they didn't file a 被害届出 to get the ball rolling

Indeed, I remember our previous conversation about this. Unfortunately, Googling for 'higai todokede' or '被害届出' reveals only two non-ninongo hits: both posts by you! It's a shame vital info such as this is not more readily available.

In my experience too, Japanese police have always been courteous. Although I did once have a slightly unnerving experience (apart from the almost daily glares I get from my local koban...I'm just resigned to this now though.) I was stopped for a traffic offence outside a police station (there were about 10 officers obviously looking to flag down dodgy looking vehicles etc.) While I was cooperating politely with an equally polite officer, a group of younger looking officers seemed to be delighted with this 面白い 'catch', sniggering, pointing etc. This wasn't so bad... but right in front of my motorcycle stood the meanest looking J-cop I've ever seen, who just stood there, arms folded, boring his eyes into mine while sporting a foul scowl, which occasionally morphed into a snear and back. I swear he didn't flinch or avert his gaze for the full 10 minutes it took for the 'nice' officer to complete the paperwork. I couldn't quite see what the purpose/benefit of this behaviour was.

Oh, and I didn't have to show my gaijin card...

[Emoni]

The possible consequences of leaving one's wallet at home are completely out of proportion to one's 'crime'.

I'll just admit here that I'm extremely against "gainjin cards." Probably one of the utmost reasons being what you stated here.

Also, I did the google searach like you said... you're not joking. Two of Mike Cash's JREF posts are all that come up. That's just scary and shows how much ignorance and how serious of a situation there is in regards to lack of sources for foreigners to even search up legal information.

[KirinMan]

I'll just admit here that I'm extremely against "gainjin cards."
Are you against Green Cards in the US too?

It's just one of the requirements for living here. It really isnt that big of a deal.

The people here that I feel sorry for are the Zainichi Kankokujin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan), they are in effect stateless people, who live here in Japan and must carry the card with themselves as well.

[Emoni]

I'm against strong labeling and sectioning off in society, then imposing strict and unreasonable punishment that doesn't reflect the offense. Nothing wrong with ID, and considering we are in the computer age and have been for the past 2 decades (no small part in thanks to Japan) there is no reason why basic ID and a computer check should suffice. You don't need to treat visitors or even your own citizens that look differently as second class human beings who are assumed to have committed a crime.

How many Americans would appreciate being pulled over if they look foreign or behaving "foreign-like" then demanding a green card. How well do you think that would go over. It wouldn't.

Official situations aside, ambush annoyance and treating foreigners as criminals is not a good thing. This thread is not really to protest that as much as find a way to keep yourself safe.

And as for Zainichi Kankokujin, I totally agree that that is an absolute injustice.

[KirinMan]

I'm against strong labeling and sectioning off in society, then imposing strict and unreasonable punishment that doesn't reflect the offense. Nothing wrong with ID, and considering we are in the computer age and have been for the past 2 decades (no small part in thanks to Japan) there is no reason why basic ID and a computer check should suffice. You don't need to treat visitors or even your own citizens that look differently as second class human beings who are assumed to have committed a crime. ..........

Not all that many people, percentage wise actually are aware that foreigners carry a registration card. There is no labelling or sectioning off either. Just because I have a card doesnt put me into a different class of people here.

Think of it as carrying around your passport for ID when you are travelling in a foreign country. When the proper authorities ask for ID you give it. Hell I could be wrong here but even in Europe a passport is necessary to get a hotel room for the night if you are not a citizen or resident.

Japan is moving towards a social security identification system of sorts

Official situations aside, ambush annoyance and treating foreigners as criminals is not a good thing. This thread is not really to protest that as much as find a way to keep yourself safe.

Foreigners are NOT treated as crimminals here. Let's get that straight. The best advice is just carry it as required. It isnt that hard of a thing to do. Hell people carry their driver's license right? Keep them together and you'll be fine here.

How many Americans would appreciate being pulled over if they look foreign or behaving "foreign-like" then demanding a green card. How well do you think that would go over. It wouldn't.

Racial profiling come to mind? Oh and another thing, just about everyone in America could pass for a foreigner, until they open their mouths of course.

And as for Zainichi Kankokujin, I totally agree that that is an absolute injustice
Different story I agree, and until it is taken care of the odds of Japan granting open dual citizenships I think is next to none.

[Emoni]

Yes, racial profiling exists in America. It doesn't quite go over too well either.

Yes, foreigners ARE treated with suspicion that would be shown to someone who has committed criminal behavior at certain junctures that would NOT be shown to Japanese. I want to get THAT straight right there.

Dual citizenship is definitely needed in Japan, we agree there. However, different topic of course. I could see how it might relate to legal issues though on this thread depending on one's situation.

[pipokun]

...
And as for Zainichi Kankokujin, I totally agree that that is an absolute injustice.
Why is it an absolute injustice?
They just show their oath to their home countries, South Korea or North one.

No democracy in the DPRK, but it is an irony that the South Koreans here earnestly claims "Give us the voting right in Japan", even though they cannot vote for their president, congress or else right now.

Needless to say, everything is granted after they get naturalized here. Korean people may be glad to get the US citizenship. It is just a matter of choice.

I don't think there would be a perfect political regime, but I wish Japan should learn much from the US, assumedly a great multi-cultural society, below.
This kind of oath related to the constitution is definitely the legal rights for anyone.
http://www.path2usa.com/immigration/citizenship/us_citizenship_oath_ceremony.htm
United States Naturalization Oath Ceremony
Support the Constitution and obey the laws of the U.S.;
Renounce any foreign allegiance and/or foreign title; and
Bear arms for the Armed Forces of the U.S. or perform services for the government of the U.S. when required.

But no gated city or Japanese flight is what I want Japan to learn from them.

[KirinMan]

Why is it an absolute injustice?
They just show their oath to their home countries, South Korea or North one.

However it is much more complicated than that as you know.

Japan forced them to come here, gave them Japanese citizenship then took it away from them as well.

To countless many their "home" country is Japan. That you know as well.

[Dogen Z]

Yes, foreigners ARE treated with suspicion that would be shown to someone who has committed criminal behavior at certain junctures that would NOT be shown to Japanese. I want to get THAT straight right there.

I'm afraid I'm taking the liberty to correct your claim.

SOME foreigners ARE treated with suspicion that would be shown to someone who has committed criminal behavior at certain junctures that would NOT be shown to MOST Japanese.

If you're a dodgey looking foreigner, you would be looked on with suspicion but if you appear to be respectable individual then you would be treated with respect.

I can claim this because of a little tussle with a yakuza type that I was involved with last year. Fortunately for me, he was a little drunk and alone and shorter than me...but still tough. The police intervened and manhandled the guy but treated me with a lot of respect. They asked me what happened and wrote down my account and took my phone number and let me go. (It wasn't my fault, he started it.)

They called me a few days latter and asked me if I could go to their station. Of course, I agreed (I'm a guest in their country, after all.) They told me that they had talked to the guy and wasn't sure exactly what happened because our stories differed but I could resolve this matter by just apologizing to the guy. (He had cut his hand in the fracas when he fell down.) I reiterated that I didn't start it so it wasn't my fault. But the police told me that, in Japan, these incidents are not considered completely one-sided, both parties were responsible.

So....I did the smart thing and apologized and even bowed. The yakuza guy did the same. The police let us go on our way and told the yakuza guy that they don't want to hear anything about this again. A police officer even kindly escorted me to the exit. I told him it must be hard to keep the peace in such a crazy place as Shibuya. He only smiled.

[Mike Cash]

Regarding the badge numbers, if you view the largest size available of the Flickr photo I linked to, the officer's badge number is clearly visible. As stated above, they do not wear name tags. Fortunately, if one wishes to file a complaint against a particular officer, the badge number is all that is necessary. Under certain cirumstances, however, the police are allowed to take apart their badges and flip the badge number portion over so that the blank reverse is to the front, making it impossible to obtain their number. I've never seen one actually turned over, and doubt that anyone encountering a beat cop or traffic cop in the normal performance of his duties will either.

[KirinMan]

As stated above, they do not wear name tags.
Mike, I wonder if that is a regional thing and not something that is in effect throughout the country. The reason I state this is that where I am at the average beat cop and the one's working in the local station have name tags.

[Glenski]

I'll just admit here that I'm extremely against "gainjin cards."

Nothing wrong with ID, and considering we are in the computer age and have been for the past 2 decades (no small part in thanks to Japan) there is no reason why basic ID and a computer check should suffice.Emoni, you're not making sense. The alien registration card is the "basic ID" for non-citizens around the world. What else do you want people to have? Not everyone has (or needs) a driver's license, so rule that one out.

I'm against strong labeling and sectioning off in societyGet used to it. It happens everywhere, and in a society as homogenous as Japan, it makes us stick out even more. I don't like it, but what am I supposed to do, short of cosmetic surgery?

You don't need to treat visitors or even your own citizens that look differently as second class human beings who are assumed to have committed a crime.Not all are. Many of us live here quite peacefully without any disturbance from "the force".

How many Americans would appreciate being pulled over if they look foreign or behaving "foreign-like" then demanding a green card. How well do you think that would go over. It wouldn't.My number one piece of advice for people coming to Japan -- don't compare morals or laws or culture with your own country. This isn't it.

Dual citizenship is definitely needed in JapanWIth how many nationalities do you propose this? You can't have it just your way (with only your country's people).

[FrustratedDave]

I can claim this because of a little tussle with a yakuza type that I was involved with last year. Fortunately for me, he was a little drunk and alone and shorter than me...but still tough. The police intervened and manhandled the guy but treated me with a lot of respect. They asked me what happened and wrote down my account and took my phone number and let me go. (It wasn't my fault, he started it.)
They called me a few days latter and asked me if I could go to their station. Of course, I agreed (I'm a guest in their country, after all.) They told me that they had talked to the guy and wasn't sure exactly what happened because our stories differed but I could resolve this matter by just apologizing to the guy. (He had cut his hand in the fracas when he fell down.) I reiterated that I didn't start it so it wasn't my fault. But the police told me that, in Japan, these incidents are not considered completely one-sided, both parties were responsible.
So....I did the smart thing and apologized and even bowed. The yakuza guy did the same. The police let us go on our way and told the yakuza guy that they don't want to hear anything about this again. A police officer even kindly escorted me to the exit. I told him it must be hard to keep the peace in such a crazy place as Shibuya. He only smiled.
Are you sure it was not a "chinpira". I don't know any "yakuza" who will go out on his own. Let alone bow to you at the end of a dispute. Off topic I know but I wanted to clear this up.

[Mike Cash]

Mike, I wonder if that is a regional thing and not something that is in effect throughout the country. The reason I state this is that where I am at the average beat cop and the one's working in the local station have name tags.

I'd be interested in knowing where in Japan that is and in seeing a photo of one. I have never seen one anywhere that I have been.

[Dogen Z]

Are you sure it was not a "chinpira". I don't know any "yakuza" who will go out on his own. Let alone bow to you at the end of a dispute. Off topic I know but I wanted to clear this up.
I thought he was just a crazy old man but the police informed me at the end of the whole affair that he was yakuza and I was lucky that the matter ended so simply. At the time of the incident he wanted to charge me with assault! :souka: (All I did was push him back when he tried to grab me.) The police advised me to avoid any confrontation with anyone in the future because people are a little crazy these days. I agreed that it would be the smart thing to do (I like to avoid trouble anyway :relief:).
His apology was simply mumbling that he was drunk and couldn't remember the event clearly-not a bow. I was more apologetic because his hand injury looked bad even though I wasn't the direct cause of it.

Spunky little guy--I might have enjoyed having a beer with him under other circumstances. :blush:

[alantin]

Emoni, you're not making sense. The alien registration card is the "basic ID" for non-citizens around the world. What else do you want people to have? Not everyone has (or needs) a driver's license, so rule that one out.

I think in the EU the drivers license isn't really a valid form of ID. If I remember right, to fly from a EU country to another a EU citizen needs either a passport or other form of ID. Drivers license isn't enough. An acquaintance of mine was left on an airport in Finland when trying to fly to Germany and had forgotten his passport. He only had his drivers license.

[Emoni]

ID, some form of ID should be enough. Heck, I'd settle for keeping the cards easily if I wasn't being stopped to show it or had to worry about punishment for simply forgetting the darn thing. Yes, you can say not to compare morals and rights in countries, but it sure doesn't mean I'm not going to forget about keeping myself safe physically and legally. With all the pitfalls that exist just with that card and police behavior in Japan, it would be insane to not bother to educate oneself.

Hence the reason I started this thread.

The Yakuza story Ocean, it was interesting. I know I would have seriously hesitated on "apologizing" myself, not only for the fact that I wouldn't have felt responsible in anyway, but mostly because I wasn't sure what legal responsibility I might be opening myself up to.

[Glenski]

ID, some form of ID should be enough.What form? Please be specific? I've already pointed out that not everyone has a driver's license, so we're back to the only other form there is -- alien registration. The Japanese themselves have already nixed any national identity card.

Heck, I'd settle for keeping the cards easily if I wasn't being stopped to show it or had to worry about punishment for simply forgetting the darn thing.You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You agree that ID is needed, yet you complain about it when it is used for the very purpose it is designed. Having a plastic alien card is better and easier than carrying your passport.

[pipokun]

...
With all the pitfalls that exist just with that card and police behavior in Japan, it would be insane to not bother to educate oneself.
...


A material for your education from Yomiuri, printed edition on July 24...

Each special agent remembers 500 faces of wanted criminals

In Tokyo, about 10 special agents are assigned to check the faces of criminals through a flood of people in Tokyo.
"WHY DID YOU COME TO KNOW ME???" said a criminal after stopped, questioned and arrested.

Up until last month, 281 criminals have been arrested from the flood since 2001.

The cost/benefit should be carefully examined, but this is a result from the infamous stop and question. And when you include the unwanted criminals, it may be a bit more efficient in the anarchistic Tokyo, though I also read an article in Sapio, a magazine, that the real criminals take a taxi no matter how short distance they move around Tokyo.

I am scared what would have happened in the recent Hachioji knife killer case without the cop questioning the suspect on the street or the killer had been a human right Art of War lover who liked asking the cop, "show me your ID, blah, blah, blah?".

*The Hachioji case was a bit different from the cases in Akihabara or Hiratsuka, for the stabber left the site for a while.

[Emoni]

What form? Please be specific? I've already pointed out that not everyone has a driver's license, so we're back to the only other form there is -- alien registration. The Japanese themselves have already nixed any national identity card.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You agree that ID is needed, yet you complain about it when it is used for the very purpose it is designed. Having a plastic alien card is better and easier than carrying your passport.

Throw in a Japanese person in the place of a foreigner. You instantly have a very different situation do you not? What if the Japanese person doesn't have ID? Do you see any Japanese on the street asked to show ID? Have you ever seen them stopped for bicycle checks? I'm not going to bring this too much into the mess of things, as I wanted to focus mostly on how one can legally protect themselves in certain situations, but it is this sort of difference that I'm speaking of when I give other alternatives to the "have gaijin card or to police station you go" mindset. Japanese account for the most crime in Japan percentage wise, yet the foreigners and visitors are the ones checked and treated as if they are suspects. Culture differences be damned, that doesn't make sense one bit.

[Glenski]

Do you see any Japanese on the street asked to show ID?Japanese citizens are not obliged to produce ID, as stated in the Police Execution of Duties Law.

Have you ever seen them stopped for bicycle checks? It happens.

it is this sort of difference that I'm speaking of when I give other alternatives to the "have gaijin card or to police station you go" mindset.You have not answered my question, asked repeatedly:
What alternative to the alien registration card (or passport) would you recommend?

Japanese account for the most crime in Japan percentage wise, yet the foreigners and visitors are the ones checked and treated as if they are suspects. Culture differences be damned, that doesn't make sense one bit.Exaggerations aside (Japanese people DO get checked), I agree with all of the above, but what do you propose?

[KirinMan]

Have you ever seen them stopped for bicycle checks?
I have seen them do all sorts of vehicle checks on Japanese.

I even know a guy who got a DUI for riding a bicycle, and he is Japanese.

Just because YOU dont or havent seen it doesnt automatically mean that it hasnt happened or doesnt happen with regards to checks.

Sounds to me like you are trying to create a fire where there isnt even any smoke.

[FrustratedDave]

I thought he was just a crazy old man but the police informed me at the end of the whole affair that he was yakuza and I was lucky that the matter ended so simply.
Chinpira are regulary lumped in as being Yakuza, you had a confrontation with a chinpira. Just to put it in terms you might understand, a Yakuza is a made man and in an aurgument there would be people comming come to the party to protect him. Don't get me wrong, they are all part of the same organization.


You have not answered my question, asked repeatedly:
What alternative to the alien registration card (or passport) would you recommend?


Good luck getting an answer as I am still wating for an answer to this question.http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38140&page=2What am I intending on saying in example #1 and #2
#1: "彼の部屋にれいがいた"
#2: "彼の部屋にれいがいた"

Just proves the fact that Emoni is not really interested in anything other then to stir up a bit of trouble just to get people to bite back. Emoni if I am wrong, answer the questions you have left untouched, or will this prove your reasoning wrong and that is why you have side steped every valid point made by some of the members here?

[Taiko666]

What form? Please be specific? I've already pointed out that not everyone has a driver's license, so we're back to the only other form there is -- alien registration. The Japanese themselves have already nixed any national identity card.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You agree that ID is needed, yet you complain about it when it is used for the very purpose it is designed. Having a plastic alien card is better and easier than carrying your passport.

I don't think carrying ID should be legal requirement at all. But since it's possible (but unlikely) that one could find oneself in a situation where somebody has a truly valid reason for needing to know one's ID, it makes sense to carry something. But having to spend a night in the cells because you left your wallet at home is completely ludicrous.

Most countries get by without having a compulsory ID system (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2078604.stm) And only two that I know of, Japan and the USA (funny how they always go arm-in-arm when it comes to these sorts of issues) require ID only from foreigners. Many countries require foreigners to carry id, but those countries also require citizens to carry id. Therefore deadlocked situations such as:

Chief Wiggum: Show me your ID
Joe Public: I'm a citizen, I don't need to carry ID
Chief Wiggum: Prove you're a citizen
Joe Public: I can't, I'm not carrying any ID

don't occur. And this situation will occur more and more often in Japan.

[Glenski]

I don't think carrying ID should be legal requirement at all. But since it's possible (but unlikely) that one could find oneself in a situation where somebody has a truly valid reason for needing to know one's ID, it makes sense to carry something. But having to spend a night in the cells because you left your wallet at home is completely ludicrous.Foreigners need their IDs perhaps more than locals. Perhaps. Reason anyone should carry ID? Accidents happen, be they earthquakes, knife-wielding maniacs in Akihabara, car crashes, etc. If you are unconscious, how are you going to be ID'd?

Most countries get by without having a compulsory ID system (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2078604.stm) And only two that I know of, Japan and the USA (funny how they always go arm-in-arm when it comes to these sorts of issues) require ID only from foreigners.Doesn't the USA, too? I believe green card holders must always have it on them there.

Many countries require foreigners to carry id, but those countries also require citizens to carry id.Not in the US. Locals can walk the streets without ID and it is not a crime.

Therefore deadlocked situations such as:
Chief Wiggum: Show me your ID
Joe Public: I'm a citizen, I don't need to carry ID
Chief Wiggum: Prove you're a citizen
Joe Public: I can't, I'm not carrying any ID
don't occur. And this situation will occur more and more often in Japan.Yup, just ask Debito Arudou. It just happened to him. My response to that Catch-22 is that anyone can therefore claim he is "half" or a naturalized citizen, right? and therefore he cannot be asked to produce ID. ANYONE. (Don't try it, though.)

[orochi]

Gotta love loopholes!

[pipokun]

...
Japanese account for the most crime in Japan percentage wise, yet the foreigners and visitors are the ones checked and treated as if they are suspects. Culture differences be damned, that doesn't make sense one bit.

Some and most visitors are good and law-abiding.
But others are not.

Just think the reason why the US started to collect the whole fingerprints.
It is simply because the others were US-loving people who erase their fingerprints by a plastic surgery.
And have you ever considered forging your gaijin card? I hope you have not.
But the others actually did so.

And carrying the card is a legal requirement for residents who are not naturalized here. Do you want a special treatment from them?

[orochi]

Some and most visitors are good and law-abiding.
But others are not.

The same goes for Japanese nationals.
Shouldn't they have IDs as well to prevent problems?

Do you want a special treatment from them?

Is asking not be treated like a criminal asking for special treatment?

[pipokun]

The same goes for Japanese nationals.
Shouldn't they have IDs as well to prevent problems?
Is asking not be treated like a criminal asking for special treatment?

All Japanese are registered in the family registry quite unique (and notorious for some) registration. And actually, what Japan is planning next is something like a SSN in the US to cover all people.

Showing the card upon request is not treating you as a criminal.

[orochi]

All Japanese are registered in the family registry quite unique

But they aren't required to carry around family registry cards. Your point is irrelevant.

Showing the card upon request is not treating you as a criminal.

Of course not. Showing the card is something that YOU do. Nobody said that people are treating themselves like criminals.

[pipokun]

So carrying the card is a point here, right?
Those who have to carry the card are in the different category, and it is no different from other countries. Of course, different countries, different procedures.

Showing the card is something that YOU HAVE TO do upon request.

[orochi]

So carrying the card is a point here, right?

You guys were talking about cards, right? Cards are carried. Registries are kept at municipal offices.

Showing the card is something that YOU HAVE TO do upon request.

If you're suspected of having committed a crime.

[pipokun]

If you're suspected of having committed a crime.

Really?


SECTION II REQUIREMENTS FOR RESIDENCE
(Carrying and Presentation of Passport or Permit)
Article 23.
2. The alien stipulated in the preceding paragraph shall show his passport or permit specified in the same paragraph to an immigration inspector, immigration control officer, police official, maritime safety official or any other official of the state or local public entity as provided for by a Ministry of Justice ordinance, if such an official requests the presentation of the passport or permit in the performance of his duties.
http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/information/icrr-09.html


Unfortunately, the (alleged and unknown) bike theft investigation by the cop is also their duty.

[orochi]

How's the officer know they are talking to a non-Japanese? Your logic gives police officers the power to demand ID from anybody they believe to be a foreigner.

[Glenski]

How's the officer know they are talking to a non-Japanese? Your logic gives police officers the power to demand ID from anybody they believe to be a foreigner.
Yup, that's the reality of Japan. Sad but true.

[Glenski]

All Japanese are registered in the family registry quite unique (and notorious for some) registration.Not sure what you mean by notorious. Even so, foreigners are listed in family registries in unique ways, too. I'm on my wife's registry, but since I am not Japanese, she is listed as head of household, and if she dies, my kid is next in line, not me.

And actually, what Japan is planning next is something like a SSN in the US to cover all people.It's what they have tried to do, but even the local citizens have fought against that (and won).

Showing the card upon request is not treating you as a criminal.Being asked to produce it in certain instances is definitely being treated like a criminal.

case 1. A guy (reported on Debito's site) has been stopped 117 times on his bicycle in his neighborhood, sometimes by the same cop (!), and asked to show his ID. Reason? No good one given, other than suspicion of foreigners in general for bike theft.

case 2. Debito himself was stopped (and only a handful of caucasians on his flight) for reasons of G-8 security.

[Rizaric]

I've been stopped on my bike 2 times in the span of a year and a bit. The first time, I was riding home from work (but I'd bought a fancy mountain bike from a friend who was leaving Japan) and was pursued by a bike gang of cops saying 'sumimasen!'. They asked me for the bike registration, and I explained to them that I'd bought it off someone else and hadn't had the time to go register it.

The lady wrote down my bike model/licence? number and basically told me that I should go and get the biker registered to me right away. They were very courteous the whole time and I was courteous back, so 5 minutes later I was on my way home with no trouble.

The third time, it was kind of my fault- myself and a Japanese friend were both riding on a single bike to pick up some late night snacks (2am) from the convenience store and stupidly rode in front of the Koban :P. So the bike gang pursued us again, 2 junior officers and 1 old guy. Basically the junior officers were nice and polite and saying that we shouldn't do that, especially in front of the Koban. The old guy was a crass ***, and I couldn't understand about half of what he said, so I ended up kind of ignoring him. My poor buddy got lots of flak though- "You should teach people from other countries about Japan's law! What if little kids saw you riding 2 to a bike, they would do it too!" They asked my for my foreigner registration card - as the store was just out 3 minutes from my apartment, I'd not brought it, so I told them that. They also asked and other questions like "How long are you staying in Japan"- I told them that I was leaving the country soon (which was actually a couple months, but it's all relative I guess). With that they kind of relented and let us go on our way, warning us not to do it again and telling me to carry my passport/card at all time.

All in all, I don't think the experiences with them were too bad, they were fairly nice and didn't go on power trips or anything. Pretty much they were doing their jobs. I think if you are cordial with them and explain the situation properly, they will respond accordingly. I too have heard of them stopping some of my Japanese friends on bikes in similar manners- if anything its kind of just like a checkstop.

[Glenski]

"You should teach people from other countries about Japan's law! What if little kids saw you riding 2 to a bike, they would do it too!"Hysterical statement, since Japanese people do this all the time.

[pipokun]

How's the officer know they are talking to a non-Japanese? Your logic gives police officers the power to demand ID from anybody they believe to be a foreigner.
A sort of yes.

Again, there was a mysterious case in Tokyo or Saitama where a mysterious young Japanese woman did not say anything at all, even a word, had to stay for a night at a police station.

Of course, the media barked loudly and the police apologized what their wrong-doing. But just a word, or cooperative attitude, from her might save her precious time. I just hope she learned a lesson from her experience.

[pipokun]

...
case 1. A guy (reported on Debito's site) has been stopped 117 times on his bicycle in his neighborhood, sometimes by the same cop (!), and asked to show his ID. Reason? No good one given, other than suspicion of foreigners in general for bike theft.
case 2. Debito himself was stopped (and only a handful of caucasians on his flight) for reasons of G-8 security.

Both cases are just isolated examples, but, of course, they might be terrible experiences for them.

You've already told the stories in other threads, so please keep going there.

case 1. It is rare for a business person to ride a bike so often like him at the center of business district in Tokyo.

case 2. Right. It was just the G8. It was good to know that the cop was that kind after the 2007 Heiligendamm. The more you become more loud, the more people, at least I, would tell their kind attitude, at least, of the young cop.

[orochi]

But just a word, or cooperative attitude, from her might save her precious time.

What I heard was that she was extremely shy. With that personality, she was probably shaken up pretty badly with the police harassing her for personal information when she had committed no crime.

Rather than her having been more cooperative, perhaps we should hold police officers to their own regulations and the law.

case 1. It is rare for a business person to ride a bike so often like him at the center of business district in Tokyo.

So people on bikes are probably not businessmen. So they should be stopped. Is that what you are trying to say? Sadly, there is no legal ground for questioning people based on their type of employment. Yet another irrelevant point.

[pipokun]

What I heard was that she was extremely shy. With that personality, she was probably shaken up pretty badly with the police harassing her for personal information when she had committed no crime.

Rather than her having been more cooperative, perhaps we should hold police officers to their own regulations and the law.

Maybe, therefore she is just an exceptional case as Debito's ones.

So people on bikes are probably not businessmen. So they should be stopped. Is that what you are trying to say? Sadly, there is no legal ground for questioning people based on their type of employment. Yet another irrelevant point.
No, not about the type of employment, but what I want to say is another generalization out of rare cases.

[Dogen Z]

:( Whaaa! Japan won't accept me on my own terms. Whaaa! I can't act in the self-centered way I can back home.
There are a lot of whiners here. It would be good to show some maturity. :cool:

[orochi]

Ocean Dude,
At least read the thread before making baseless comments like that.

Maybe, therefore she is just an exceptional case as Debito's ones.

What about holding police officers to follow their regulations and the law?

[Glenski]

Isolated examples? Well, what do you want -- a listing of web sites that details many accounts of such things? (Psst, read Debito's web site; all I have space for here is the isolated example or two, and it is NOT exceptional.)

It is rare for a business person to ride a bike so often like him at the center of business district in Tokyo.And, you know this..... how? Are you trying to say that extremely few businesspeople ride bikes?

Right. It was just the G8. Why so smug and sarcastic? Did you even read the story itself? That was the story given by the polite policeman. Debito's case regarding G-8 summit security and gaijins being stopped was not unique, either. Read up before writing smart-aleck remarks.

[Pachipro]

Showing the card is something that YOU HAVE TO do upon request.
Being asked to produce it in certain instances is definitely being treated like a criminal.
Apparently you have been out of the US too long Glenski or are not up to date on the Patriot Act. Failure to produce an ID when asked by the authorities, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, even when walking your dog, will be grounds to take you in for questioning. It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens. Especially interstate stops and searching persons and cars without a search warrant. I see it every night. Look it up.

Therefore, it is not only in Japan that this is happening, but it is also happening in the country of your birth, the so-called "freeest nation on the planet". IMO a gaijin has more freedoms in Japan than here in the US these days.

[Emoni]

Apparently you have been out of the US too long Glenski or are not up to date on the Patriot Act. Failure to produce an ID when asked by the authorities, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, even when walking your dog, will be grounds to take you in for questioning. It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens. Especially interstate stops and searching persons and cars without a search warrant. I see it every night. Look it up.
Therefore, it is not only in Japan that this is happening, but it is also happening in the country of your birth, the so-called "freeest nation on the planet". IMO a gaijin has more freedoms in Japan than here in the US these days.

I do live here now, (just got back) but didn't know about this. I knew things had gotten bad, but every day I find out to what degree more and more.

[KirinMan]

Both cases are just isolated examples, but, of course, they might be terrible experiences for them.

.
Originally Posted by Glenski
...
case 1. A guy (reported on Debito's site) has been stopped 117 times on his bicycle in his neighborhood, sometimes by the same cop (!), and asked to show his ID. Reason? No good one given, other than suspicion of foreigners in general for bike theft.

If this is true.....you call 117 times stopped by the cops as isolated?
What is your definition of the word?
The other thing that makes me shake my head here is how in the world did the guy know it was 117 times. Maybe it was like saying Methuselah was a 1000 years old, just a figure of speech to say that the guy had been stopped a lot.

[Dogen Z]

Carrying a gaijin card is not a big hardship. In fact, it's convenient since it spares me the trouble of carrying my passport all the time. That would be a pain. And showing the card to authorities to prove I haven't overstayed my visa, which is a growing problem these days, is, at worst, a minor inconvenience. I don't mind it at all.

[FrustratedDave]

I just don't see all this discrimatory behaviour by police. I regulary have to go to the 4 local police stations around my area(not kobans, the headquaters for each region where I live) to obtain parking permits for the 15 cars that my comapny owns. I have to show ID everytime I submit the forms(the drivers of the cars have to provide copies of their licence and there are a whole heap of other forms to submitt, but the submitter has to show some two forms of ID, I always show my licence and health card and never once have I been asked for my gaijin card.

[Emoni]

That's the initial reaction... then you learn more and have to deal with it in other situations and other associated issues and it becomes to represent more of a risk than an inconvience if you dare forget one day, or you end up having to deal with problems like Kirin or other members of this board.

Speaking of which is anyone aware of maybe a certain "look for" list that might be followed when stopping people for gaijin card checks or bikes? Things that set it off?

[orochi]

It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens.

Just because it happens somewhere else doesn't instantly make it okay that it happens here.

Carrying a gaijin card is not a big hardship.

That's not really the argument that we're having though. As I mentioned above, you should read the thread.

I just don't see all this discrimatory behaviour by police.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I always show my licence and health card and never once have I been asked for my gaijin card.

We're not talking about what forms of ID are acceptable to use in different situations, though. That is a completely different issue, and has little to do with police stops or rights as a foreigner.

[FrustratedDave]

We're not talking about what forms of ID are acceptable to use in different situations, though. That is a completely different issue, and has little to do with police stops or rights as a foreigner.
And you missed the point. If they were being discriminatory towards foriegners, would it be also fair to asumme that this was happening across the board? So my experience of being asked for two ID's and one of them not being the gaijin card shows me that they are not being discriminatory towards foriengers in general.

Unfortunately no one is seeing the reality here, we are all subjected to profiling, some just choose to believe that it is racial(of corse there is racial profiling, but is it so in every case of a foriegner being stopped?). Case in point, if went into a very high profile jewlery store with bare feet , ripped shorts and a dirty singlet, how seriously would I be taken even in America? I would probably be watched like a hawk b/c I have the apperance of having no money. So a cop stops you on your bike ,is it b/c you are foriegn or b/c of what you look like in dress?

[Glenski]

Apparently you have been out of the US too long Glenski or are not up to date on the Patriot Act. Failure to produce an ID when asked by the authorities, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, even when walking your dog, will be grounds to take you in for questioning. It is being done on a daily basis here in the US even among US citizens. Especially interstate stops and searching persons and cars without a search warrant. I see it every night. Look it up.I don't have to look it up. This is Japan, not the USA, and there is no Patriot Act here.

Japan has suffered from terrorism, yes, but do you realize that none of it has come from foreigners? It has all (100%) been caused by Japanese citizens.

Let's not say what is good for the USA is good for Japan, ok? No foreigners spread sarin gas in the Tokyo subways.

Oh, and I believe the Patriot Act itself has come under fire as being unconstitutional, has it not?

Unfortunately no one is seeing the reality here, we are all subjected to profiling, some just choose to believe that it is racial(of corse there is racial profiling, but is it so in every case of a foriegner being stopped?).Excuse me, Dave, but just because 100% of the foreigners are not racially profiled, that doesn't mean this is a nice situation. How many need to fall into that category of discrimination before you believe it?

So a cop stops you on your bike ,is it b/c you are foriegn or b/c of what you look like in dress?And, how do you respond to the reports that cops stop foreigners because of bicycles being stolen, yet they don't really come up with reasons other than that? I mean, they didn't say FOREIGNERS are stealing bikes, just that bikes are being stolen, yet many people have written about having been stopped, then watch as police blatantly let Japanese on bikes pass them by. If they're going to stop people on bikes due to bike theft in the area, they should stop everyone.

[ASHIKAGA]

Looks like to me this is another "What is wrong with Japanese police" thread.
Sharing your personal experience about dealing with the police is fine but apart from reading about peoples' views about the police and the laws concerning foreigners, I don't see how this is going anywhere with most of us just repeating ourselves over and over. Unfortunately, since we do not have a representative from the police here to answer any of the questions raised, that is all we can do.

Some of us see a great injustice in how the police sometimes stops people for questioning, some others feel it is just the way it is and not worth making too big a deal out of it, then there are those who are somewhere in the middle, who thinks it is wrong but it is something you just have to deal with living in Japan.

Those of us who live here (in Japan) and personally encounter such incidents and feel our rights are violated, take actions. Consult a lawyer.

Those of us who have only heard about it from friends/media reports/studies, etc., just be aware of it in case it happens to us one day, yet may want to wait until we gain a certain level of understanding of every aspect of what this culture/society is like through first-hand experience. This might take actually living here for a long time.

And those of us who live here and do not see much wrong in how things are handled and those who have problems with it yet not enough to really question it, let us remind ourselves there ARE those feel this is a serious issue and try to see things from others' perspectives.

[orochi]

And you missed the point.

I think you are still missing the point. You went to the station of your own volition to file some paperwork. ID was required and you presented it no problem. That's fine. We're not talking about what forms of ID are acceptable to use in different situations.

The problem we are talking about is when people are stopped on the street and asked to present ID to identify themselves in "immigration checks".

Whether or not you have to use your gajin card as one of your IDs when signing up for a video rental card, registering at a hotel, or filing for parking permits is not the issue at hand.

[Glenski]

Whether or not you have to use your gajin card as one of your IDs when signing up for a video rental card, registering at a hotel, or filing for parking permits is not the issue at hand.
But these can be equally valid points, too.

Store clerks are not obliged to copy your alien card for registration at hotels or video rental shops. You are a resident. That's enough, and all they need to do by law is LOOK AT the card.

But I digress.

[FrustratedDave]

Excuse me, Dave, but just because 100% of the foreigners are not racially profiled, that doesn't mean this is a nice situation. How many need to fall into that category of discrimination before you believe it?
Never said it was nice.
And, how do you respond to the reports that cops stop foreigners because of bicycles being stolen, yet they don't really come up with reasons other than that? I mean, they didn't say FOREIGNERS are stealing bikes, just that bikes are being stolen, yet many people have written about having been stopped, then watch as police blatantly let Japanese on bikes pass them by. If they're going to stop people on bikes due to bike theft in the area, they should stop everyone.
And how many foriengers have stolen bikes in the past? The fact of the matter is that a small minority of people who come here for a good time for a short period abuse the rules and ruin it for the rest of us. The police are just reacting to that. How many Japanese do things like this? And may not be relevent to this disscussion ,but it gives reason enough to target foreign looking people http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=8NP7iCzNN5A
We are a product of our own stupidness and the sooner people realise this the better.
I think you are still missing the point. You went to the station of your own volition to file some paperwork. ID was required and you presented it no problem. That's fine. We're not talking about what forms of ID are acceptable to use in different situations.
The problem we are talking about is when people are stopped on the street and asked to present ID to identify themselves in "immigration checks".
Whether or not you have to use your gajin card as one of your IDs when signing up for a video rental card, registering at a hotel, or filing for parking permits is not the issue at hand.
And when I was pulled over for speeding I was asked to produce my licence and not my gaijin card. So unless there is a licence for riding a bike, what else are they going to ask for?

[Emoni]

We are a product of our own stupidness and the sooner people realise this the better.

"We" isn't me, you, nor anyone else. No more than "We" is every single Japanese who goes over to China for a sex fling, goes and gets drunk and violent in a bar abroad, or stabs some people in Akihabara.

The sooner "We" realize that, the sooner things can improve. It is this mindset that locks everyone into the situation that exists now with law enforcement in Japan.

At a dorm I was staying at, before everyone went back one semester there were some ping pong tables that were completely destroyed in the building and thrown out front. Everyone was talking about how the "Americans" probably did it. "We" didn't, in fact the Americans living there were so sick of that they ratted the Australian guy who did it out. Now with that video above, and my story does that mean now Australians are the true "threat to Japanese peace" that the police must watch for? Of course not. It means basing judgments on stereotypes instead of actual crimes and evidence is what is the issue, not "look I saw some foreigners do stuff, lets focus on them" even if that isn't even the issue.

[FrustratedDave]

"We" isn't me, you, nor anyone else. No more than "We" is every single Japanese who goes over to China for a sex fling, goes and gets drunk and violent in a bar abroad, or stabs some people in Akihabara.

The sooner "We" realize that, the sooner things can improve. It is this mindset that locks everyone into the situation that exists now with law enforcement in Japan. What world do you live in? When did the actions a few not affect the laws you have now in the states? You are sadly mistaken if you think we will ever be judged for each person that we are. That is the reality, look at the security at airports these days... But the argument will come up as this is done across the board, but the fact remains that a few individuals ruined it for the rest of us. So what you are esentually suggesting is a standard for each individual? How is the police suppossed to do this so called "individuall treatment plan"? Any police department uses profilling to catch suspects, if they didn't we would have a much less safer society as it would take a lot longer to find criminals( and I am talking about other countries too, not just Japan)







At a dorm I was staying at, before everyone went back one semester there were some ping pong tables that were completely destroyed in the building and thrown out front. Everyone was talking about how the "Americans" probably did it. "We" didn't, in fact the Americans living there were so sick of that they ratted the Australian guy who did it out. Now with that video above, and my story does that mean now Australians are the true "threat to Japanese peace" that the police must watch for? Of course not. It means basing judgments on stereotypes instead of actual crimes and evidence is what is the issue, not "look I saw some foreigners do stuff, lets focus on them" even if that isn't even the issue.

Like I have said before , stolen bikes is not the only thing that needs to be checked. Face it, you are a visiter here and things have to been monitored.

[orochi]

Face it, you are a visiter here and things have to been monitored.

Some people would say that opinions like that make things harder for everybody else.

[FrustratedDave]

Some people would say that opinions like that make things harder for everybody else.
And foriengers are not monitored anywhere else in the world, including the states?

[orochi]

And foriengers are not monitored anywhere else in the world, including the states?

<palm_in_face>That's as irrelevant as your driver's license argument.</palm>

[FrustratedDave]

<palm_in_face>That's as irrelevant as your driver's license argument.</palm>
How is that irrelevant? And I would love to hear you reasoning behind why the drivers licence example was irrelevant, seeming though you choose not answer it.

[Glenski]

Never said it was nice.It was implied when you wrote "of corse there is racial profiling, but is it so in every case of a foriegner being stopped?"

You didn't answer my question, though.
just because 100% of the foreigners are not racially profiled, that doesn't mean this is a nice situation. How many need to fall into that category of discrimination before you believe it? Change "believe" to "accept" if it sounds better to you.

And how many foriengers have stolen bikes in the past?The police seem to think enough do to stop foreigners on bikes. That's enough.

The fact of the matter is that a small minority of people who come here for a good time for a short period abuse the rules and ruin it for the rest of us. The police are just reacting to that.I agree with the former statement, but not completely to the latter. There is more at play here than just a kneejerk reaction by police.


And when I was pulled over for speeding I was asked to produce my licence and not my gaijin card. Now that is what I would call an isolated case.

So unless there is a licence for riding a bike, what else are they going to ask for?We both know there is no such thing to carry around, but bikes can be licensed, so one way to verify is to see your address, which is on the alien card. As I wrote earlier, not all foreigners carry driver's licenses to prove their ID, so a foreign-looking face forces the police to think "alien card". The problem at times is when ONLY the foreigners are being stopped. THAT is the issue here.

As for the YouTube video, I've seen it before. It is indeed stupid, and it shows what some foreigners are capable of, especially when they are drunk, young, and ignorant. It is not necessarily a reason for the police to target them for ID checks at random (which is what I believe one of our main points is here). The jerk in the video got off lightly, as far as I'm concerned, but we didn't see the whole proceedings on video.

Any police department uses profilling to catch suspects, if they didn't we would have a much less safer society as it would take a lot longer to find criminalsDoes this "profiling" include the inflated and skewed figures the National Police Agency reports to the government and public on foreign crimes? Does it include the "gaijin crime" magazine that was published (with photos and data that sometimes could only have come from inside sources within the police force)? Does this include the police-sanctioned signs posted near ATMs depicting ONLY FOREIGNERS as potential criminals out to steal money from unwitting ATM patrons?

C'mon, Dave, admit that the police here engage in racial profiling that targets foreigners when it is not always deserved.

[KirinMan]

Some people would say that opinions like that make things harder for everybody else.
How so? It is a fact, visitors are monitored while in country. Reason being that there are too many that stick around illegally.

Care to justify your reasoning now?

[FrustratedDave]

It was implied when you wrote "of corse there is racial profiling, but is it so in every case of a foriegner being stopped?"
You didn't answer my question, though.
just because 100% of the foreigners are not racially profiled, that doesn't mean this is a nice situation. How many need to fall into that category of discrimination before you believe it? Change "believe" to "accept" if it sounds better to you. To answer the question. I could not put a number on "how many" ,but we only seem to get information from those who have and we all know that those people cry the loadest. I have yet to see statistics that the majority of foriegners are regulary stopped on their bikes by traffic cops, in my mind it is still a minority. I am not sure I understand peoples reactions here, do you want the police to not stop any foriegners on bikes at all? If not ,what is the acceptable percentage of people that could be stopped without it constituting racial profiling. BTW Japanese people get stopped all the time, so they are not singleing out forigners.
The police seem to think enough do to stop foreigners on bikes. That's enough.
I agree with the former statement, but not completely to the latter. There is more at play here than just a kneejerk reaction by police. I still don't see why it is not a kneejerk reaction.
Now that is what I would call an isolated case. I don't see why my multible examples are isolated. Any thoughts on why in my cases I did not have to show my alien card?
We both know there is no such thing to carry around, but bikes can be licensed, so one way to verify is to see your address, which is on the alien card. As I wrote earlier, not all foreigners carry driver's licenses to prove their ID, so a foreign-looking face forces the police to think "alien card". The problem at times is when ONLY the foreigners are being stopped. THAT is the issue here. Exactly, so naturally they ask for the alien card. But it is not only foriegners that are being stopped???
As for the YouTube video, I've seen it before. It is indeed stupid, and it shows what some foreigners are capable of, especially when they are drunk, young, and ignorant. It is not necessarily a reason for the police to target them for ID checks at random (which is what I believe one of our main points is here). The jerk in the video got off lightly, as far as I'm concerned, but we didn't see the whole proceedings on video.
Does this "profiling" include the inflated and skewed figures the National Police Agency reports to the government and public on foreign crimes? Does it include the "gaijin crime" magazine that was published (with photos and data that sometimes could only have come from inside sources within the police force)? Does this include the police-sanctioned signs posted near ATMs depicting ONLY FOREIGNERS as potential criminals out to steal money from unwitting ATM patrons?
C'mon, Dave, admit that the police here engage in racial profiling that targets foreigners when it is not always deserved.
Look I don't agree with the campaigns to rid foriegn crime(although, the government have every right to address this issue, it is just the way they go about it that could be seen as wrong) and the government deliberately overacting in regards to this. And is there some truth what you are saying, maybe. But, I don't see it it as a big a problem that some are trying to make it out to be.

[orochi]

How so? It is a fact, visitors are monitored while in country. Reason being that there are too many that stick around illegally.
Care to justify your reasoning now?

Because opinions like "I'm just a visitor" and "I don't deserve equal treatment" do nothing but maintain the status quo. It's lazy and irresponsible.

[FrustratedDave]

Because opinions like "I'm just a visitor" and "I don't deserve equal treatment" do nothing but maintain the status quo. It's lazy and irresponsible.
ARE YOU A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY? If the answer is no why do you expect the same treatment as a citizen? You statement is ridiculus and selfish. So not being able to vote is another thing you are against?

[Emoni]

ARE YOU A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY? If the answer is no why do you expect the same treatment as a citizen? You statement is ridiculus and selfish. So not being able to vote is another thing you are against?

Calm the hell down there...

The key point by the whole thread was to protect one's self legally. Why? Because even if you aren't a citizen, that doesn't mean you should be treated with constant suspicion, little legal ground, twisting of the law by the police, and punishments that do not fit the crime (For get your card accidentally, or even your wallet that your card is in? Oh you now could spend the night at the police station even if they DO know who you are).

You're not a citizen so you don't deserve fair treatment that may be afforded regular citizens? What did an innocent visitor ever do? More often than not, nothing.

Again this thread is to protect one's self legally, it isn't to simply tell people to shut up because they are a visitor and not a citizen. It would be nice if some people check the prejudice at the door please.

I'm sorry if others are personally not effected by certain issues and feel that those who are should shut up about them, but I believe otherwise. If you haven't dealt with issues such as this, or aren't concerned, don't state to other than they simply should say nothing and lay down. This sort of aggressive apathy brings absolutely no positive benefit and never has.

None of us posting on this thread are criminals or evil people looking to cause trouble as far as I know. That is what the system exists to oppose, to not want to be in the way of that system when it is at times highly misdirected is by NO MEANS an unreasonable desire!

For an international forum, to see such a short-sighted and small-minded of argument with no logical or positive sense behind it is sickening. Orochi said it perfectly when he stated, "Because opinions like "I'm just a visitor" and "I don't deserve equal treatment" do nothing but maintain the status quo. It's lazy and irresponsible."

The statement "You're not a citizen, shut up." should NEVER be used on this board in my opinion. It is prejudiced, rude, devoid of reasoning, and a highly harmful and negative attitude. It has no place on a forum that promotes international interaction in my opinion.

[FrustratedDave]

Calm the hell down there...
The key point by the whole thread was to protect one's self legally. Why? Because even if you aren't a citizen, that doesn't mean you should be treated with constant suspicion, little legal ground, twisting of the law by the police, and punishments that do not fit the crime (For get your card accidentally, or even your wallet that your card is in? Oh you now could spend the night at the police station even if they DO know who you are).
You're not a citizen so you don't deserve fair treatment that may be afforded regular citizens? What did an innocent visitor ever do? More often than not, nothing.　Who is being treated with constant suspicion? I have been here for a long time(close to 15 years) and been to many different cites on business trips and not once have I ever been looked at upon the way you are suggesting. But , I must be an isolated case. (inserts roll eyes smiley)
Again this thread is to protect one's self legally, it isn't to simply tell people to shut up because they are a visitor and not a citizen. It would be nice if some people check the prejudice at the door please. What exactly are you looking for here?
I'm sorry if others are personally not effected by certain issues and feel that those who are should shut up about them, but I believe otherwise. If you haven't dealt with issues such as this, or aren't concerned, don't state to other than they simply should say nothing and lay down. This sort of aggressive apathy brings absolutely no positive benefit and never has. What, because it may sway the balance of people who haven't experienced this not in your favour? Another ridiculus statement be you. BTW stil waiting for that answer to my other question there bro.
None of us posting on this thread are criminals or evil people looking to cause trouble as far as I know. That is what the system exists to oppose, to not want to be in the way of that system when it is at times highly misdirected is by NO MEANS an unreasonable desire! And the people in this thread constitute the majority of foriegners in Japan? You are failing to see the big picture I feel.
For an international forum, to see such a short-sighted and small-minded of argument with no logical or positive sense behind it is sickening. Orochi said it perfectly when he stated, "Because opinions like "I'm just a visitor" and "I don't deserve equal treatment" do nothing but maintain the status quo. It's lazy and irresponsible."

The statement "You're not a citizen, shut up." should NEVER be used on this board in my opinion. It is prejudiced, rude, devoid of reasoning, and a highly harmful and negative attitude. It has no place on a forum that promotes international interaction in my opinion.
You make it sound like we are in balls and chains. If you want the same rights as a citizen, become one. B/c the fact remains that people overstay their visas , enter illegally , so there needs to be a system to control this and the Japanese have the alien card. I have been knocked back by credit card companies b/c I was foriegn, now I wonder why this was? (I certainly make enough) The fact is that other foriegners have racked up debts and left without paying, so the card companies don't have a leg to stand on, what would you expect them to do? Keep lossing money? And the list is long of what foreigners have done and left to evade any backlash, like I said before the minority ruins it for the majority.
Becoming a citzen means that you are willing to devote yourself to that country, it is a symbol that requires great sacrifice as giving up your citizenship from your country of birth is very hard. But ,it sounds to me like you like you want the whole cake and eat it too.

[orochi]

Being a citizen or not isn't relevant when we are talking about the equal protection that is offered by the law to citizens and non-citizens alike.

So not being able to vote is another thing you are against?

Yes. I pay taxes here. I pay unemployment insurance. I pay into a welfare program that may not see any returns when I retire. I think it would be nice if I had a say in how the money I pay is used.

Some municipalities in Japan that offer voting rights to permanent residence holders seem to agree with me as well.

[FrustratedDave]

Being a citizen or not isn't relevant when we are talking about the equal protection that is offered by the law to citizens and non-citizens alike. And we are not afforded this? I think you are confusing things quite a bit here.
Yes. I pay taxes here. I pay unemployment insurance. I pay into a welfare program that may not see any returns when I retire. I think it would be nice if I had a say in how the money I pay is used.Why will you not see the returns? B/c you will go home before you can recieve the benifits?
Some municipalities in Japan that offer voting rights to permanent residence holders seem to agree with me as well.
So you pay your taxes and insurance, but should that qualify you to make decisions about the future of a country that you may have no intensions on staying through to the end of your working life? Any numbskull can pay taxes and I certainly don't want them voting for things that may affect my future. And yes, then you will say that there are numbskulls who are Japanese, but the difference is they are citizens of this country and no other. Permanant residency presents a whole different issue, a least you have met the qualifications set by the government to be considered a resident and have made a certain amount of commitment to become a resident. But that is not what we are talking about is it?

[orochi]

And we are not afforded this? I think you are confusing things quite a bit here.

I didn't say we weren't afforded those rights. I'm saying that since the law provides equal protection to citizens and non-citizens alike, your question "ARE YOU A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY?" is irrelevant.

Why will you not see the returns? B/c you will go home before you can recieve the benifits?

Because many people have already had their payment info "lost". Because of a decreasing working population. Because of missing money in the pension system. The list goes on. I hope I can collect, but it's a risk I take every month I put money into the system. I would rather invest it on my own since the government is proving rather ineffective.

So you pay your taxes and insurance, but should that qualify you to make decisions about the future of a country

I say yes. I knocked the last part of this question off since you have no idea how long I plan on staying in Japan and shouldn't have assumed anything.

but should that qualify you to make decisions about the future of a country that you may have no intensions on staying through to the end of your working life?

Now let's look at this sliver separately. Right now I have voting rights in my birth country. I don't plan on living there the rest of my working life.

Permanant residency presents a whole different issue, a least you have met the qualifications set by the government to be considered a resident

I don't have to have permanent residence to be considered a resident of Japan. I am already a resident of Japan. Anybody who is registered at their city hall and carries a gaijin card is a resident. I also pay residence tax. So I'm not sure where you're coming from. Remember that citizen and resident are two separate concepts.

[Glenski]

Thanks for the answer, Dave. I'm going to quote something you said at the end of your message because it is extremely valid.
Look I don't agree with the campaigns to rid foriegn crime(although, the government have every right to address this issue, it is just the way they go about it that could be seen as wrong) and the government deliberately overacting in regards to this. This is the crux of my arguments, and you & I seem to agree. That's good.

I fail to understand, therefore, some of your other points and reasoning. I myself have never been stopped on a bike, and only once in 10 years has any police officer asked to see my ID, yet we both know this happens a lot to many foreigners. The fact that you and I have been fortunate does not mean the issue is nonexistent, and what you wrote above suggests that you believe it truly exists. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way you write, it seems that your biggest complaint is in how certain activists (no single individual in mind here!) cry out (not cry "wolf") over the problems. Am I close?


To answer the question. I could not put a number on "how many" ,but we only seem to get information from those who have and we all know that those people cry the loadest. I have yet to see statistics that the majority of foriegners are regulary stopped on their bikes by traffic cops, in my mind it is still a minority.I don't have the figures either, and I strongly suspect there are regional disparities, but the fact that many foreigners cry (loudly gets one heard, you know) out when they are singled out should mean something. It is this point (the singling out when it is obvious and admitted by cops) that I fail to understand why you don't see it.

I am not sure I understand peoples reactions here, do you want the police to not stop any foriegners on bikes at all?Of course not. The point, as I just explained, is that in some areas, ONLY foreigners are stopped.

I don't see why my multible examples are isolated. Any thoughts on why in my cases I did not have to show my alien card?You only cited one person (you) and one instance ("And when I was pulled over for speeding I was asked to produce my licence and not my gaijin card.") That is the isolated case I referred to. As for why you didn't get asked to show your alien card, I don't know, and I suspect there are other cases of the same.

Even I can attest to similar things. Japan's biggest activist for human rights, Debito Arudou, has run story after story about how foreigners are asked to show their alien card when registering in hotels, and how illegal it is to copy such, yet the hotel staff continue to do this. He advocates fighting back by citing the law. Fine, so be it. That's Debito's way. However, as I related to him recently on another forum, I myself registered at a hotel and didn't even bother to write my passport number on the form. No questions asked. None. Zip. So, Debito's examples of racial profiling don't happen to everyone, but that still doesn't mean that people aren't treated that way.

Originally Posted by orochi View Post

Being a citizen or not isn't relevant when we are talking about the equal protection that is offered by the law to citizens and non-citizens alike.

FrustratedDave:
And we are not afforded this? No, Dave, many are not.

And is there some truth what you are saying, maybe. But, I don't see it it as a big a problem that some are trying to make it out to be.I'm glad you recognize there is a problem. Activists will speak about such things loudly (and not all activists,mind you, do that). That is the best way they can be heard. It doesn't diminish the importance or existence of the problem.

[FrustratedDave]

I didn't say we weren't afforded those rights. I'm saying that since the law provides equal protection to citizens and non-citizens alike, your question "ARE YOU A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY?" is irrelevant. Why is it irrelavent, this whole discussion is about the few laws that are applied to non japanese citizens for perfectly legitmate reasons, but we are still afforded the same amount of protection as citizens through the law.



Because many people have already had their payment info "lost". Because of a decreasing working population. Because of missing money in the pension system. The list goes on. I hope I can collect, but it's a risk I take every month I put money into the system. I would rather invest it on my own since the government is proving rather ineffective.
Oh, and this only happens to foriegners... I am sure the Japanese people are doing their best to have the correct returns met when they retire or have a different system available. This still does not give you the right to vote and make decisions for the Japanese people just because you pay taxes.



I say yes. I knocked the last part of this question off since you have no idea how long I plan on staying in Japan and shouldn't have assumed anything. I never assumed anything, everything to do with you or anyone else not planning on staying here for life were questions , not assumptions. Well that is great , come here and pay taxes for month and then have the right to vote without having the slightest clue about what is going on. Half the non Korean foriegn community don't have the Japanese skills of a kindergarten student, how are they suppossed to make well informed decisions?


Now let's look at this sliver separately. Right now I have voting rights in my birth country. I don't plan on living there the rest of my working life. Wow, thats a supprise. No ask your self the pecentage of people that come here for work and stay here for the rest of their lives? I somewhat agree with the zainichi commuinty being allowed to vote, but that is also a different kettle of fish.



I don't have to have permanent residence to be considered a resident of Japan. I am already a resident of Japan. Anybody who is registered at their city hall and carries a gaijin card is a resident. I also pay residence tax. So I'm not sure where you're coming from. Remember that citizen and resident are two separate concepts.
So does this mean you see the difference between the two? Maybe I should have specifically stated visa status insteed of using the word resident? So if you want to play words games be my guest.

[orochi]

Why is it irrelavent, this whole discussion is about the few laws that are applied to non japanese citizens for perfectly legitmate reasons, but we are still afforded the same amount of protection as citizens through the law.

The law offers equal treatment. For example, the police must have reason to suspect someone is up to trouble before stopping them for official questioning and demanding ID. This applies to citizens and non-citizens alike. Therefore, you yelling at me for not being a citizen is irrelevant. I have the same rights here.

Oh, and this only happens to foriegners...

I didn't say it did.

This still does not give you the right to vote and make decisions for the Japanese people just because you pay taxes.

I didn't say it did.

Half the non Korean foriegn community don't have the Japanese skills of a kindergarten student

Do you have any statistics to back that up?

So if you want to play words games be my guest.

I am not playing games. I am trying to have a conversation. Don't get snappy at me because you are misusing words.

Look.
You said this:
Permanant residency presents a whole different issue, a least you have met the qualifications set by the government to be considered a resident and have made a certain amount of commitment to become a resident.

You made an error. As I pointed out, it is not necessary to get permanent residence to be considered a resident. If you meant something different, then please let me know. If you meant "citizen" when you said "resident", you have to tell me. Don't just get snappy and try to close the argument. All I know of your opinion and views is what you post. I cannot read your mind.

[FrustratedDave]

Thanks for the answer, Dave. I'm going to quote something you said at the end of your message because it is extremely valid.
This is the crux of my arguments, and you & I seem to agree. That's good.
I fail to understand, therefore, some of your other points and reasoning. I myself have never been stopped on a bike, and only once in 10 years has any police officer asked to see my ID, yet we both know this happens a lot to many foreigners. The fact that you and I have been fortunate does not mean the issue is nonexistent, and what you wrote above suggests that you believe it truly exists. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way you write, it seems that your biggest complaint is in how certain activists (no single individual in mind here!) cry out (not cry "wolf") over the problems. Am I close?
Don't get me wrong, I don't see it as non existant more so, not to the extent that some are saying.
I don't have the figures either, and I strongly suspect there are regional disparities, but the fact that many foreigners cry (loudly gets one heard, you know) out when they are singled out should mean something. It is this point (the singling out when it is obvious and admitted by cops) that I fail to understand why you don't see it. I do see it, but I what I don't see is this happening across the board. So I have to assume that like you say there are regional disparities which are most likely due to the few who ruined it for the rest of us. I know you are not saying that either.
Of course not. The point, as I just explained, is that in some areas, ONLY foreigners are stopped. I can't comment of that as I have no information to say otherwise. So I will take your word.
You only cited one person (you) and one instance ("And when I was pulled over for speeding I was asked to produce my licence and not my gaijin card.") That is the isolated case I referred to. As for why you didn't get asked to show your alien card, I don't know, and I suspect there are other cases of the same. When I was talking about my experiences not being issolated, I was refering to the many situations I have been in and a police had every right to ask to see my alien card but didn't.
Even I can attest to similar things. Japan's biggest activist for human rights, Debito Arudou, has run story after story about how foreigners are asked to show their alien card when registering in hotels, and how illegal it is to copy such, yet the hotel staff continue to do this. He advocates fighting back by citing the law. Fine, so be it. That's Debito's way. However, as I related to him recently on another forum, I myself registered at a hotel and didn't even bother to write my passport number on the form. No questions asked. None. Zip. So, Debito's examples of racial profiling don't happen to everyone, but that still doesn't mean that people aren't treated that way. I have also never been asked to produce my alien card at a hotel and regulary go on business trips all over Japan.
No, Dave, many are not.I beleive we are afforded the same protection. So we will have to agree to disagree.
I'm glad you recognize there is a problem. Activists will speak about such things loudly (and not all activists,mind you, do that). That is the best way they can be heard. It doesn't diminish the importance or existence of the problem. No it doesn't. But it does not give someone the right to demand how a country should be run b/c that is how it was back at home.

[orochi]

I beleive we are afforded the same protection.

The law gives us the same protection.
The problem is when those in power choose to offer varying levels.
This could be a police officer or a hotel manager.
This is where the problem is--execution and enforcement of the law.

[KirinMan]

Because opinions like "I'm just a visitor" and "I don't deserve equal treatment" do nothing but maintain the status quo. It's lazy and irresponsible.

No one made the comment about "I dont deserve equal treatment" yet it is arrogant to expect that as a foreign visitor you should expect to be treated as a citizen.

[orochi]

No one made the comment about "I dont deserve equal treatment"

Really?
Like I have said before , stolen bikes is not the only thing that needs to be checked. Face it, you are a visiter here and things have to been monitored.

I interpreted that he was saying it's okay for police officers to stop "foreign-looking" people because they may be on stolen bikes or have other things that need to be checked--maybe they are an over stayer, for example.

As mentioned before, the police can stop people who they suspect of being involved in a crime. FrustratedDave's scenario is an example of unequal application of the law. That I disagree with.

yet it is arrogant to expect that as a foreign visitor you should expect to be treated as a citizen.

I simply expect the equal protection that is already offered by the law.
Is it so much to ask the local authorities to follow their own rules? I think not.
How is that arrogant? And I am not a visitor.

[FrustratedDave]

The law offers equal treatment. For example, the police must have reason to suspect someone is up to trouble before stopping them for official questioning and demanding ID. This applies to citizens and non-citizens alike. Therefore, you yelling at me for not being a citizen is irrelevant. I have the same rights here.
Yes, and like I said before the minority has ruined it for the majority so there for it could be considered certain amount of suspicion is there to warrent the police to check bikes. Now you and I can say that their is or isn't until until we are blue in the face, but the fact remains that foriegn people (western looking) have caused enough trouble to warrent this in some areas.
I didn't say it did. Well then tell me, what right do you have to tell the Japanese government how to run their country when you are not a citizen? B/c you pay taxes? I hardly think that alone qualifies you to do so.
I didn't say it did.Well what is your point in regards to this?
Do you have any statistics to back that up?
You are not seriously going to believe that over half the non-Korean foriengers are able to converse and read and write as good as a kindergaten student? Or have you not spoken with a kindergaten student lately? Or better yet , have conversed with one of the many short term Stayers here that are here for a good time. Does anyone know what the percentage of people who come here end up obtaining permanant residency? I bet that would not be over 10%.
I am not playing games. I am trying to have a conversation. Don't get snappy at me because you are misusing words.
Look.
You said this:
Permanant residency presents a whole different issue, a least you have met the qualifications set by the government to be considered a resident and have made a certain amount of commitment to become a resident.
You made an error. As I pointed out, it is not necessary to get permanent residence to be considered a resident. If you meant something different, then please let me know. If you meant "citizen" when you said "resident", you have to tell me. Don't just get snappy and try to close the argument. All I know of your opinion and views is what you post. I cannot read your mind.
Maybe I should have put the word permanent in front of those residents words ,but you don't have to play coy with me you knew exactly what I was intending on saying. So can you you see the difference in being a resident and a citizen now? You said it yourself, quote "Anybody who is registered at their city hall and carries a gaijin card is a resident. I also pay residence tax. So I'm not sure where you're coming from. Remember that citizen and resident are two separate concepts." . So I have not made a mistake in saying if your are not a citizen then you should not be entiltled to the same rights as one. (when I say rights , I mean voting ect, ect)
Really?
I interpreted that he was saying it's okay for police officers to stop "foreign-looking" people because they may be on stolen bikes or have other things that need to be checked--maybe they are an over stayer, for example.
As mentioned before, the police can stop people who they suspect of being involved in a crime. FrustratedDave's scenario is an example of unequal application of the law. That I disagree with.
I simply expect the equal protection that is already offered by the law.
Is it so much to ask the local authorities to follow their own rules? I think not.
How is that arrogant? And I am not a visitor.
It is either you are too arrogant or too ignorant to understand that in most cases the police are doing their job and following the law while doing so. (Nobody can say that 100% of the people working for the police force will do it equally , but Japaneses people have aslo been subjected to unfair police treatment so you can't say this is isolated to foreigners only) Do Japanese overstay their visas in Japan? Stupid question I know, I have to resort to this kind questioning to get the point across ,so when are you going to understand that not being a citizen sets us apart froms citizens. We have laws to abid by that citizensd do not, eg it is your duty to ensure that you visa status is valid and there are plenty more laws like that that we have to abid by that sets us apart from Japanese citizens . So why do you keep on saying that we should be treated like Japanese when it is a fact that there circumstances that the police have a duty to check and do their Job which may require them to stop people who are foriegn looking.

[orochi]

but you don't have to play coy with me you knew exactly what I was intending on saying

I'm not playing coy. You used the wrong terms. And you're still getting snappy. If you won't clarify anything you say, this isn't worth my time. Sorry.

[Emoni]

There is a very major flaw in those who are stating "you shouldn't be treated as a citizen" when comparing that to basic legal rights which implicitly are applied to both citizens and visitors alike. To me this point is extremely mute. You aren't defining what actually is "treating visitors and citizens" differently. Keep in mind we are talking about LAW here, and I'd love to hear laws that state "When Japanese people are doing this, they get this treatment, but when visitors do this do THIS." Instead behavior of police can follow this pattern, and in a sense police then even break the law themselves (not uncommon as police are people as well). Please think of this in legal terms, and the human rights and society control that the laws are based on. Not based on guesses, prejudice, and unrelated examples.

More over Orochi I have to say is making good point after well backed up point as usual in numerous regards.

[Mike Cash]

The delicious and delightful point that keeps getting overlooked here, as it does in all such threads you may find anywhere on the net, is that it is being treated the same as Japanese that causes the foreigners to get their panties in a wad to begin with.

The underlying message, whether people realize it or not, is "I expect to be treated better because I'm a foreigner". Think about it: when this sort of thing comes up the natural and logical thing to do would be to decry the problems in the system as they relate to everyone....most especially Japanese citizens, since they are the ones primarily affected. But what happens instead is an unspoken premise of "good enough for them but I shouldn't have to put up with it" develops.

It's hilarious. As a corollary.....watch foreigners as they read the Daily Yomiuri, Japan Times, or some other such paper in Japan. Watch as they by and large skip right past all domestic (Japanese) news, as it does not apply to them and they are not interested in the slightest.

[FrustratedDave]

I'm not playing coy. You used the wrong terms. And you're still getting snappy. If you won't clarify anything you say, this isn't worth my time. Sorry.
What a poor excuse, and by the way you answering you seem to know full well what I was talking about, now all you are trying to do is prove that I left out a few words and prove me wrong in a totally unrealated topic of of the use of English, so good for you, you did that. Is this your way of side stepping a topic that you can no longer anwser to? I clarified myself earlier by saying I should have put permanent in front of resident. So its your call.
There is a very major flaw in those who are stating "you shouldn't be treated as a citizen" when comparing that to basic legal rights which implicitly are applied to both citizens and visitors alike. To me this point is extremely mute. You aren't defining what actually is "treating visitors and citizens" differently. Keep in mind we are talking about LAW here, and I'd love to hear laws that state "When Japanese people are doing this, they get this treatment, but when visitors do this do THIS." Instead behavior of police can follow this pattern, and in a sense police then even break the law themselves (not uncommon as police are people as well). Please think of this in legal terms, and the human rights and society control that the laws are based on. Not based on guesses, prejudice, and unrelated examples.
More over Orochi I have to say is making good point after well backed up point as usual in numerous regards.
Have you not been reading the thread? There are different laws for citizens and foreigners, so yes in legal terms we have less rights in regards to certain things in certain circustances. So no, police generally do not over step their bounds. But like I said before not all people adhear to the same principles and unfair treatment can occur, but again this is not issolated to foreigners.
The delicious and delightful point that keeps getting overlooked here, as it does in all such threads you may find anywhere on the net, is that it is being treated the same as Japanese that causes the foreigners to get their panties in a wad to begin with.
The underlying message, whether people realize it or not, is "I expect to be treated better because I'm a foreigner". Think about it: when this sort of thing comes up the natural and logical thing to do would be to decry the problems in the system as they relate to everyone....most especially Japanese citizens, since they are the ones primarily affected. But what happens instead is an unspoken premise of "good enough for them but I shouldn't have to put up with it" develops.
It's hilarious. As a corollary.....watch foreigners as they read the Daily Yomiuri, Japan Times, or some other such paper in Japan. Watch as they by and large skip right past all domestic (Japanese) news, as it does not apply to them and they are not interested in the slightest.
I agree completely, and have seen this all too often. I hear foreigners complain and carry on as if it were their own country without the slightest clue on what is really happening. If you want at least some part of the truth you should at least be reading the "Nikkei" , but like I said earlier , only a very small portion of westerns can actually read it and understand it. Sigh... somepeople won't get it...

[orochi]

I hear foreigners complain and carry on as if it were their own country

For some foreigners living here, it IS their country. Who are you to say where one calls home?

you should at least be reading the "Nikkei" , but like I said earlier , only a very small portion of westerns can actually read it and understand it.

Do you have any statistics? And why are you limiting the scope to westerners here? Why do westerners have to pass this reading test of yours before they have the right to speak up? Do you think non-Westerners living in Japan should have more rights (by way of not having to pass this reading test)? I'm confused.

[orochi]

The underlying message, whether people realize it or not, is "I expect to be treated better because I'm a foreigner". Think about it: when this sort of thing comes up the natural and logical thing to do would be to decry the problems in the system as they relate to everyone....most especially Japanese citizens, since they are the ones primarily affected. But what happens instead is an unspoken premise of "good enough for them but I shouldn't have to put up with it" develops.

The problem is that citizens don't have to put up with all the same problems. (Similarly, one could argue that foreigners don't have to put up with all the same problems as citizens.)

Fingerprinting at the airport, for example. There is nothing inherently selfish (or wanting it better than a citizen) about finding a problem with this. You argue that those complaining should speak for the greater numbers, including citizens. But with certain problems like this one, citizens are not applicable.

So I am confused by your argument.
Do you have any specific examples?

[FrustratedDave]

For some foreigners living here, it IS their country. Who are you to say where one calls home? Don't confuse calling a country your own and actually having it as your own. If you want the same rights as a citizen then become one.



Do you have any statistics? And why are you limiting the scope to westerners here? Why do westerners have to pass this reading test of yours before they have the right to speak up? Do you think non-Westerners living in Japan should have more rights (by way of not having to pass this reading test)? I'm confused.
Why limit this to westerners? B/c these are the people who speak loudest , but refuse to adjust their ways to at least match some of the Japanese culture. Am I being to harsh? I don't know, but 95% of people I have met (which could number into the hundreds over the years that I have been here) have failed to grasp understanding of this culture, spoken and written language , like I said before I have been all over Japan so my experiences don't seem isolated to just me. I know 4 people who have lived here for close to 10 years and more who have a very , very basic grasp of the language, just enough for them to buy want they need at the store ect. ect. (When I asked them why they don't learn the language, the response in all 4 cases was, "why bother when you can get by using English) And to answer your last question , I think westerners and other Asian foriegners should have less rights than the zainich, which they do so thats my answer to your question.

Well, I shared my experiences on peoples language abilities and although I don't have any statisics to back it up I feel it is based on a fair truth of the situation of most foriengers here ( Not all, b/c there are some who go above and beyond) So I put it forth to you, show me some evidence or statistics that prove me wrong.

[FrustratedDave]

There is nothing inherently selfish (or wanting it better than a citizen) about finding a problem with this.


This is exactly the mentality of your typical foriegner(westerner) living in Japan.

[orochi]

This is exactly the mentality of your typical foriegner(westerner) living in Japan.

So you think that people who disagree with having their fingerprints taken upon entry to Japan are selfish and want it better than the locals?

[pipokun]

and for Glenski
If this is true.....you call 117 times stopped by the cops as isolated?
What is your definition of the word?
The other thing that makes me shake my head here is how in the world did the guy know it was 117 times. Maybe it was like saying Methuselah was a 1000 years old, just a figure of speech to say that the guy had been stopped a lot.

117/10=11 times/a year

1. 2 times (sometimes 4)/year for seasonal traffic campaigns
2. It seems that he rides a bike much more often than I.
3. He lives in a police state, Tokyo, where cops stopped and questioned, "former head of police department, ex-politician, a lawyer", when he just walked around Shibuya with his uncool clothes.

Pardon my English, but I did not say that each 117 cases of him was an isolated case, but the whole his experience was the isolated one.

How many times, KirinMan and Glenski, have you stopped by the cop for your last 10 years?

[Glenski]

pipokun,
In the past 10 years, I have been stopped only once by a police officer to ask for my ID, and he claimed it was because, at the time, Russians were abusing the visa system. Russians! Did I look Russian in some way? He also looked only at the front of my alien card and not the back where all the changes are made, so he didn't even have an up to date knowledge of me.

As for the guy who was stopped 117 times, perhaps the fact that he was stopped so many is isolated in itself, but two things stand out:

1) He was stopped so many times by the same police officer(s) for the same token reason, which they admitted was not always necessary, I believe. Sounds to me like they stopped him because of a quota system.

2) A person does not have to be stopped more than once for their ID to be such an extreme case. Many cases have been reported where the police just can't come up with something more relevant than, "Ok, we don't suspect you of a crime, but we're the police, so cough up anyway." THIS is the point of abuse and where foreigners (even those with permanent resident status) are not being given equal treatment under the law. Police cannot ask a citizen for his ID, but they sure come up with excuses to ask the foreigners.

[FrustratedDave]

So you think that people who disagree with having their fingerprints taken upon entry to Japan are selfish and want it better than the locals?
For a "resident" yes,I think it is selfish. As for permanent residents, I believe they have displayed enough to show that they are in Japan for the good of the country, so no I partly disagree with the policy. But the important question is "do I want to kick up a fuss over it?" No I don't.

[caster51]

at least ,I was stopped by police about 5times in year for bycycle issue
.
I have an experience that i was stopped 2times in a day..

Police cannot ask a citizen for his ID

they asked to show a things which my social status was certified.
I would show it as long as I did not anything bad.
The rental card of the video is not useful because it is not ID.
Because I showed it, it doesn't become my disadvantage at all..
There are a lot of disadvantages as for not showing....
And, they will harbor distrust...



these complaiment of foreigner deteriorate Japanese feelings though whether it is a legal rights or not.

it is merely a perverse person.
When such a complaint is read, honest and steady work of the police is understood. I will cooperate more because it is a trifling thing


btw fummy story.................

Four to secure the scene and two to continue questioning me. All that was missing was the police chopper. Interestingly, they didn’t ask to see my Foreigners Card until a few minutes into the questioning. I kindly showed it to them along with my shinny drivers’ license that I hardly ever pull from my pocketbook. While doing this, I kept having these brain farts about stuff I’ve read on debito; ‘an officer can’t physically take your Foreigners Card into his hands’, et al. And just as I had worked up the courage to exercise that right, snatch! – It was gone! Ha-ha..............

http://kenelwood.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/country-coppers/

[Emoni]

these complaiment of foreigner deteriorate Japanese feelings though whether it is a legal rights or not.
it is merely a perverse person.
When such a complaint is read, honest and steady work of the police is understood. I will cooperate more because it is a trifling thing
http://kenelwood.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/country-coppers/

Just because you don't seem to care whether it is legally right or not, doesn't mean it isn't important when the issue is more serious or the police aren't following basic laws. When the police do not follow the law or twist it, foreigners ESPECIALLY have to be more careful because you know what? Racism and such does exist in Japan and the behavior of the police is one venue that is shown.

It is a trifle issue to you maybe, because you do not have to deal with the same aspects as someone who is a foreigner (or even a foreigner who became a citizen of Japan) does have to deal with.

If you don't have any problems, fine. Don't go telling everyone who has faces different issues due to their position to simply shut up about it if you haven't been in their shoes or didn't care about the issue in the first place.

When you see police not following their own laws or perverting them (a word you liked to use), then as a foreigner you BETTER watch out because by no means will you have a safe position legally from that point forward. That is why this thread exists, not for people to complain about "gaijin complaining" but to try to protect them because they ARE very often at a serious disadvantage in any incidents or meetings with the police.

In an attempt to try to get things refocused in the original direction and effort to help, how about this question. What DO you do if you run into a problem with a cop or someone who is clearly abusing their role, for example the cop that was stopping one of the poster over 100 times. How would you handle an issue like that? I would assume you can't just record video of an incident, they'd want you to turn that off, and your word against theirs wouldn't work well certainly.

[KirinMan]

How many times, KirinMan and Glenski, have you stopped by the cop for your last 10 years?

Well, other than being in a line of cars, where everyone was getting checked for drunk driving.
ZERO

In the past 20 years, other than getting stopped for speeding.
ZERO

[FrustratedDave]

Just because you don't seem to care whether it is legally right or not, doesn't mean it isn't important when the issue is more serious or the police aren't following basic laws. When the police do not follow the law or twist it, foreigners ESPECIALLY have to be more careful because you know what? Racism and such does exist in Japan and the behavior of the police is one venue that is shown. How did you come up with this expert opinion? Hearsay? Stop trying make that this is the only place that racism occurs, reality check please...

The guy was riding an unresgistered bike and they let him go in the end. What more do you want? Just b/c they were doing their job, however vigorously that was, it was still their job to get the truth. What people are failing to realise is that b/c you are not interigated like that at your own country does not mean that it will be the same here. And just for the record this interigation is not isolated to foriegners.


It is a trifle issue to you maybe, because you do not have to deal with the same aspects as someone who is a foreigner (or even a foreigner who became a citizen of Japan) does have to deal with.
If you don't have any problems, fine. Don't go telling everyone who has faces different issues due to their position to simply shut up about it if you haven't been in their shoes or didn't care about the issue in the first place.
Did you not read casters post? He was stopped 5 times in a year and two times in one day. So like I have been saying all along, foriegners have a tendancy to blow things out of proportion b/c this is not what they are used to. Get used to it, b/c others have ruined it for the rest of us, you read the article, even that guy found stuff on the net that westerners were caught stealings bikes and that it was a problem.

When you see police not following their own laws or perverting them (a word you liked to use), then as a foreigner you BETTER watch out because by no means will you have a safe position legally from that point forward. That is why this thread exists, not for people to complain about "gaijin complaining" but to try to protect them because they ARE very often at a serious disadvantage in any incidents or meetings with the police. Again , two Japanese citizens who have posted in this thread have stated that they have been pulled over while riding bikes. What more do you want, Japanese to change to constitution to one mirroring America or some other "free" country? Not implying that Japan is not a free country.

In an attempt to try to get things refocused in the original direction and effort to help, how about this question. What DO you do if you run into a problem with a cop or someone who is clearly abusing their role, for example the cop that was stopping one of the poster over 100 times. How would you handle an issue like that? I would assume you can't just record video of an incident, they'd want you to turn that off, and your word against theirs wouldn't work well certainly. I don't know what the situation was actually like, but number one I would probably not be counting unless I was looking for trouble. Number Two, I would show my card every time I was asked, maybe have in pocket as to not take to much of my time. Number three, I would have ask my self is this story just another way of attracting attention to the cause and deliberately going out of their way to get stopped.


@Orochi, found any stastistics on westerners Japanese speaking ability?

[Glenski]

In an attempt to try to get things refocused in the original direction and effort to help, how about this question. What DO you do if you run into a problem with a cop or someone who is clearly abusing their role, for example the cop that was stopping one of the poster over 100 times. How would you handle an issue like that? I would assume you can't just record video of an incident, they'd want you to turn that off, and your word against theirs wouldn't work well certainly.
You could photograph his badge number or photograph him (as Arudou did and as others have reported doing).
If you are stopped countless times as we have been talking about, I see no reason why you would be prohibited from filing a complaint (again, as Arudou tried).

As KirinMan pointed out, there are certain instances where there is nothing that can be done (but in his examples, they were valid checks as far as I can tell). However, it is the abuse of power that needs to be addressed, even if it affects just one person. Don't let it escalate if you can help it. So, even though a few rotten apples may have spoiled it for the rest of us, we don't always have to roll over and take it.

[Taiko666]

The underlying message, whether people realize it or not, is "I expect to be treated better because I'm a foreigner". Think about it: when this sort of thing comes up the natural and logical thing to do would be to decry the problems in the system as they relate to everyone....most especially Japanese citizens, since they are the ones primarily affected. But what happens instead is an unspoken premise of "good enough for them but I shouldn't have to put up with it" develops.

Can't agree here... ok, there may be some foreigners who want to be treated better than citizens, but I don't see any of them here (in this thread at least) and there are none that I know of in 'real life'. No, I see foreigners moaning about things which do only relate to non-citizens (eg fingerprinting, having to carry ID) or things which they mistakenly believe to relate only to non-citizens (eg the bicycle thing.)

I agree with you that the bicycle think is a misunderstanding. I believe most foreigners get agitated when stopped on their bike in Japan because it's likely that it has never happened to them in their home country, and therefore the immediate reaction is 'discrimination'. I've been stopped three times on my bike; once for the classic 'no light', and twice for the more serious riding two-up (my g/f sitting on the rear mudguard) - once while drunk (for which I could've been heavily fined.) Ironically, the only time the police actually checked the bike registration was when my g/f said it was her bike (which it was.) Anyway, each time the police were chatty and polite, I was let off, and I didn't have to whip out the dreaded alien card.


It's hilarious. As a corollary.....watch foreigners as they read the Daily Yomiuri, Japan Times, or some other such paper in Japan. Watch as they by and large skip right past all domestic (Japanese) news, as it does not apply to them and they are not interested in the slightest.

I can't believe you've actually been looking over the shoulders of people reading the news...! Therefore I infer that you're speculating.


The problem is that citizens don't have to put up with all the same problems. (Similarly, one could argue that foreigners don't have to put up with all the same problems as citizens.)

Fingerprinting at the airport, for example. There is nothing inherently selfish (or wanting it better than a citizen) about finding a problem with this. You argue that those complaining should speak for the greater numbers, including citizens. But with certain problems like this one, citizens are not applicable.

Totally agree.

[Glenski]

It's hilarious. As a corollary.....watch foreigners as they read the Daily Yomiuri, Japan Times, or some other such paper in Japan. Watch as they by and large skip right past all domestic (Japanese) news, as it does not apply to them and they are not interested in the slightest.
C'mon, Mike! How many people skip major sections of their home country newspapers to read what they want more urgently, be it the crossword puzzle, sports page, business page, etc.? You are being an unfair judge here.

Besides, how long did you actually look over people's shoulders to get such a random sampling? :-)

[orochi]

Besides, how long did you actually look over people's shoulders to get such a random sampling?

I'm guessing Mike's sampling process here is pretty similar to Dave's sampling of the Japanese ability of Westerners living in Japan.

[FrustratedDave]

I'm guessing Mike's sampling process here is pretty similar to Dave's sampling of the Japanese ability of Westerners living in Japan.
Yes and it is pretty much on the mark I think. Or is it that you have less ability than confidence in Judging someones Japanese ability?

I put it forward to you , find statistics that prove me wrong. If not then I have a pretty good yard stick to judge the Japanese ability among forienger "residents". (lets face it, "questionairs" only sample a segment, not the whole body)
Or are you going to side step this like you have done on other occasions. Starting to remind me of Emoni, b/c doesn't think it necessary to answer peoples questions either.

And Orochi for the record you have shown a great lack of experience in this thread, not once have stated a personal experience or something that has happened to you. Everything you have argued seems to be hear say. So it seems you are the one who is using an invalid method of sampling. I am begining to wonder how immersed you really are in this society. Do you speak Japanese? And don't go off on a tangent b/c you feel I attacking you b/c I am not, these are all perfectly reasonble questions.

This is all I could find on JREF.
A poll on how many Kanji people on this site know or who voted know. 45% only know up to 99 kanji. The next 10% know up to 200 kanji.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12917&highlight=japanese
Another poll and low and behold 70% have JLPT of level 4 or less,
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502&highlight=japanese

So far my estmates have pretty much been varified by at least these polls.

Your call Orochi...

[FrustratedDave]

However, it is the abuse of power that needs to be addressed, even if it affects just one person. Don't let it escalate if you can help it. So, even though a few rotten apples may have spoiled it for the rest of us, we don't always have to roll over and take it.
But the point is, is it as Rampant as everyone is making it out to be? And more to the point is it esclating? From my standpoint it is not. I am not saying take it up the you know what if power is being abused against you. I think Ashikaga said it earlier, if you have a problem see a lawyer.

[Glenski]

But the point is, is it as Rampant as everyone is making it out to be?The more vocal and the victimized will probably say yes and/or that it doesn't matter (just that it exists often enough). Personally, despite my direct experience NOT having been persecuted or victimized, I think it is rampant enough.

And more to the point is it esclating? From my standpoint it is not.I couldn't say either way, and I am not as well-informed as Debito Arudou, but I'm sure he could quote you some figures (mostly in favor of the escalation, but that is just my guess because he is such a strong advocate). Even if it is not escalating, whether in intensity or in number of reports, the discrimination deserves to be fought, and I think you may agree with that. Your final statement gives me that impression, and I think it is as good general advice as any, but to also take the advice with a grain of salt, as some reports have shown that even a lawyer's help can be futile. (Case in point, translation in the courtroom.)

I am not saying take it up the you know what if power is being abused against you. I think Ashikaga said it earlier, if you have a problem see a lawyer.

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.

[orochi]

I put it forward to you , find statistics that prove me wrong.

If you want to discuss Japanese ability among foreigners, it might be better to do so on a different thread. This one is about legal rights. Might make for an interesting thread, though.

[caster51]

questioning competion by police
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=IVlrdNlRA6M


debito on TV(差別を食い物にして反日活動をする元アメリカ人):blush:
His japanese is poor more than I expected

Police doesn't question to only foreigners
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=IZNfZMZ8fg8

[orochi]

His japanese is poor more than I expected

That's not very nice. Why the need to toss insults?

[FrustratedDave]

That's not very nice. Why the need to toss insults?
I hardly see what he said as an insult. He was expecting better Japanese, and he does have quite a bad "namari" (No I am not trying to insult him)


This has brought another question I thought could be relevant, how often do you think someone could be from another country other than yours when they don't speak your language very well even though they could possible a citizen of your country? (I am talking about when you are in your country of birth)

[Dutch Baka]

questioning competion by police
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=IVlrdNlRA6M
debito on TV(差別を食い物にして反日活動をする元アメリカ人):b lush:
His japanese is poor more than I expected
Police doesn't question to only foreigners
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=IZNfZMZ8fg8


Can't see what his Japanese level has to do with the thread....

I see two links with interesting video's, but I can't understand it because my Japanese is probably lower than the Debito guy... so how about a summary what the video is about?

[orochi]

Can't see what his Japanese level has to do with the thread....

I agree.

how often do you think someone could be from another country other than yours when they don't speak your language very well even though they could possible a citizen of your country?

Shouldn't this be its own thread?

[Glenski]

This whole thread has gone off course. I vote we lock it until people cool off.

[FrustratedDave]

Can't see what his Japanese level has to do with the thread....
I see two links with interesting video's, but I can't understand it because my Japanese is probably lower than the Debito guy... so how about a summary what the video is about?
The first video is a training video for police on how the effectively use the the "shokumu" law when apporching a suspicous person.

The second vid is about how Dave made a protest about police using "shokumushitumon" as a form of racism. Dave then speaks about how he may not look like a Japanese ,but is in fact Japanese. The news then goes on about his protest being about him(dave) claiming that he was asked for his id just b/c he looks foriegn. So Dvae made submitted a protest about what standards are being used by police when using "shokumushitumon". He said "we should not be treated like terrorists just by the way we look". In response the police said that that only use "shokumushitumon" when is neccesary regardless of being foriegn or Japanese.
That was a very basic outline of what was on the vid.


Shouldn't this be its own thread?
I don't know,but you have have been one of the most vocal in this thread but don't seem to answer valid questions that do pertain to the content of this thread.

[orochi]

This whole thread has gone off course. I vote we lock it until people cool off.

Does it really need to be locked? If people follow the proper course on this thread and take tangents to their own threads, things should work out on their own.

[Charles Barkley]

This is all I could find on JREF.
A poll on how many Kanji people on this site know or who voted know. 45% only know up to 99 kanji. The next 10% know up to 200 kanji.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12917&highlight=japanese
Another poll and low and behold 70% have JLPT of level 4 or less,
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502&highlight=japanese

So far my estmates have pretty much been varified by at least these polls.

Your call Orochi...

You are citing a JREF poll? Are you kidding? That poll is in a Japanese learners forum on a website perhaps primarily frequented by those living outside of Japan, many of whom are kids who just came on the cite because they are into anime. 勘弁してくれよ。

[Emoni]

This whole thread has gone off course. I vote we lock it until people cool off.

We don't need any more threads rashly locked. If it is related to legal matters, that is perfectly fine. Yes there is a bit of distraction here, that is obvious, but enough to shut down a perfectly good thread? There has been way too much of that on JREF lately anyway.

Instead of calling for locking, why not post something to help get it back to what you feel is on topic instead? For example "What DO you do if you run into a problem with a cop or someone who is clearly abusing their role, for example the cop that was stopping one of the poster over 100 times. How would you handle an issue like that? I would assume you can't just record video of an incident, they'd want you to turn that off, and your word against theirs wouldn't work well certainly."

Frustrateddave and caster, I'll ask you as the original poster of the thread, could you please veer a bit more in the direction of the legal topic instead of bashing some guys Japanese?

[Glenski]

Emoni,
I believe I have posted quite a bit on-topic here. The only reason I called for a lock was to temporarily stop people from going off-topic. Ideally, people would start threads on their own, but realistically, they prefer to stay and... uh... argue.



What would I do? It all depends on the situation at the time. What I feel right now may differ in real-life circumstances. I would FEEL like asking the police officer for his badge number and his boss. I would pull out Debito's bilingual message about the law which says I cannot be asked for ID without just cause. (During the G-8 summit period, I felt that would have been just cause, by the way, but even though I went through the Chitose airport near Sapporo 1 and 3 days prior to the summit and saw a plethora of security guards, I was not approached once.)

You (Emoni) can't really ask for more than you have, IMO. You want people to talk about what the law is to protect foreigners, and we have bantered around the issue. The laws are made to protect everyone, but just by sheer virtue of some posters' experience (or reference to other people's experiences), we have seen how the law can be skirted or abused by the police. By itself, that is unfair. What can be done about it? Not much.

1) Nothing. Foreigners can sit and take it (or leave the country). Yeah, I know how each of these sounds, but let me finish the list.

2) A little. Foreigners can politely ask (like Debito did at the airport) about why they are being interrogated. In his case, he was justified in not showing ID, and in other people's cases where they don't have naturalization as a defense, they can gently point out the letter of the law yet comply with the request for ID. They might even go a step further and politely (yes, I keep repeating that word) file a complaint for all the good it will do (as we have seen in Debito's case).

3) A little more. They can join Debito's cause strongly and protest openly (yet still politely and legally).

I don't really see any more options. Perhaps most foreigners do #1 and b!tch about the whole situation privately (or on forums). An occasional one will do #2 and #3.

Does the thread really have to go any further? That is, Emoni, what more information do you want?

If we're going to talk about foreigners' reading ability, I say that should be another thread. Personally, talk about foreigners skipping past local issues in the Yomiuri or Japan Times (I assumed Mike meant the English version) is off-topic (way off if we consider only the English versions). Talk about foreigners' ability to speak Japanese is equally off-topic in the sense it has been thrown out here.

As for Debito's level of Japanese, don't judge him by one video with many cameras in his face. I have no idea how well he speaks the language, but he admitted on his web site (or another forum, I can't recall) how nervous he gets in front of a camera, and he even said he used broken Japanese in that particular interview. Besides, as Dutch Baka pointed out, it's irrelevant to this topic.

So, Emoni, what more do you want us to talk about here?

[FrustratedDave]

You are citing a JREF poll? Are you kidding? That poll is in a Japanese learners forum on a website perhaps primarily frequented by those living outside of Japan, many of whom are kids who just came on the cite because they are into anime. 勘弁してくれよ。
Sigh... Charles where is your evidence that the people who voted on those polls had not already been to Japan? And heck, what is anyone doing when it comes to another language, learning perhaps, even those in Japan? Thanks for your insight... You know what the problem is with foriegners judging other foreigners Japanese ability, most of them can't speak reasonable Japanese so anyone who seems better than them MUST be good. But yet if to be evaluated by a native speaker they may still only have basic vocab and speaking skills.

@Emoni, you should be one to speak, throw in a "red herring" here and there, I won't say absolutely every one, but most of your posts are quite unproductive. Are you going to answer my question in that other thread yet or do you hate being proved wrong?

@Orochi and Emoni ,If people where to properly rebutt questions in a debate like some members instead side stepping them, things most likely stay on topic, what wrong with saying "I don't know" or "I was wrong"?

[Emoni]

I didn't say I and others didn't mention other things as well, I'm just asking for help in steering it a bit back to a more productive direction. That's all.

As for Glenski's call to lock a thread (again). Just because a thread bends a bit, or you feel it can't continue or "should be over" doesn't mean the thread needs to be LOCKED. There has been far too much locking as it is. Some of the best thread on this forum have gone on for a long time and sometimes a year later someone adds more information. This lock demand at the flip of a switch has really got to stop...

As for what more there is to talk about, just keeping it to legal related things is fine. Veering off towards cutting down how a foreigner speak Japanese, as Orochi said, isn't really fair or related. There is plenty to talk about. Such as interpretations of the laws, rights groups that exist in Japan, stories that may appear in the future related to this. Again, jumping to lock a legitimate thread is totally inappropriate and premature.

[Glenski]

Emoni,
#1, I was calling for ONLY a temporary lock. Not permanent.

#2, the points you mentioned that were discussed here (interpretations of the laws, rights groups that exist in Japan, stories that may appear in the future related to this) are all relevant to the topic that you started. However, discussions about foreigners' language ability, reading newspapers, etc. are pretty wide of the mark here.

You and I feel differently about what content should be on threads. If I read the subject line, I have a feeling for what is there, not what tangents are there. If threads are allowed to diverge from the topic and expand into several pages on that tangent, how is anyone to know just from the subject line? Moreover, how is anyone to know where certain topics are being discussed if they are NOT in a thread with a related subject line? This is my only complaint.

You can feel safe, though, in that no moderator has locked this thread yet.

However, I put quite a bit of effort into writing my previous post, and once again, you didn't even respond to the simplest, most direct question. Could you please do that so the rest of us have something to go on and can actually contribute to the thread with relevant info?

My question was: what more do you want us to talk about here?

[FrustratedDave]

However, I put quite a bit of effort into writing my previous post, and once again, you didn't even respond to the simplest, most direct question. Could you please do that so the rest of us have something to go on and can actually contribute to the thread with relevant info?

My question was: what more do you want us to talk about here?

The exact thing I have been saying all along. But don't hold your breath Glenski.:wave:


Frustrateddave and caster, I'll ask you as the original poster of the thread, could you please veer a bit more in the direction of the legal topic instead of bashing some guys Japanese?

I want to address the lack of Japanese ability issue and why I think it is relevant to this thread.

Firstly an officer cannot possible know what your ability is like just by looking at you ,so what I am talking about is after you have been stopped or if you have been asked something from someone from the law.(remember people getting stopped on bikes is not the only thing here)
If you lack the necessary skills to converse with an officer things are going to get more complicated, for one the officer may not be getting answers to his/her questions. Now this could be interpreted many ways, but certainly makes things more difficult for the police and foriegner alike. Things can be misinterpreted, especially if you have people reacting the way they would at home and this leads to the police having more suspicion, even if the foreigner is co-opreating in his/her own way. (I feel this is only natural and has nothing to do with racism). On the other hand if you have someone who speaks perfect or almost perfect Japanese, misinterpretations are kept to minimum and if you are co-operating and you have done nothing wrong then no doubt you will be on your way a lot faster than someone who does not speak Japanese in the same set of circumstances.

My point is if you can't convey yourself in this countries language I think you you prepare yourself accordingly. It is not feasable to have a translator with every officer and nor should they have to.

But still people kick a fuss b/c they were detained ect ,ect. So I feel language has a lot to do with this thread.

[Glenski]

Dave,
Just how does one "prepare accordingly"? What sort of phrases and expressions should a traveler (or even short-term resident) plan to memorize/learn? I think this is being a little unrealistic. Too many possible situations and too much vocabulary.

Yes, some cops may take your lack of Japanese ability the wrong way, but what would they expect to gain by bringing you "downtown" if you can't understand them? They would probably just toss out the few English words they know (Passport! Passport!) and shrug you off if communication becomes impossible. Of course, if there were some situation where you HAD to do some communication, but then we are back to planning for a lot of contingencies.

Therefore, I think the language issue is irrelevant to the topic one's legal rights as a foreigner. Just my opinion.

[Emoni]

Glenski, a "temporary lock" isn't necessary nor is this thread going out of control. If there is still much to be gained by a thread, or even if there isn't, it shouldn't result in a lock. Lock is when things spiral out of control totally from what I have seen. Not even close to this thread. As for what to discuss, please see my previous response. Also, please see FrustratedDave's post below.

Thank you for clarifying your statement FD, I now agree by what you mean (however I still don't see the cut down of Debito's Japanese as related). Language ability can have a GREAT deal to do with how a situation with police go. I can say that every time I arrived in Japan for study or returned, if I spoke in Japanese (even if not that great) and explained why I was in Japan I would get a bit of a change in reaction or a better "connection" with the officer in the airport/security. I'm curious of how MUCH of the issue of legal rights is related to language though... as that seems mostly based on misunderstandings rather than the following of the law.

[FrustratedDave]

Dave,
Just how does one "prepare accordingly"? What sort of phrases and expressions should a traveler (or even short-term resident) plan to memorize/learn? I think this is being a little unrealistic. Too many possible situations and too much vocabulary. If you have your alien card or passport on you and you have done nothing wrong, I imagine the officer will look at the card or passport and move on.

But what I am talking about is when someone is suspected of something and the police are asking questions. And if this situation arises and you have done nothing wrong ,if you can't answer them you should not expect them to not treat you like a suspect. This is where I see so many people whinning about unfair treatment in Japan b/c they were detained for so many hours when they did nothing wrong. All we get is half the story and anyone who is quite fluent at Japanese now will be able to look back and see just how much misunderstanding you had in conversations ,but at the time still think that you understood everything perfectly. You can't expect the police to read you mind. At least they would try to speak English to you. My friend had a run in with some Italian Police and they would only speak Italian to him. In the end the consulate was rung and everything was sorted out. (Do I think of the Italians any less, absolutely not) So when I say prepare yourself accordingly I mean either learn Japanese well enough to converse or understand you are at the mercy of the law. But why be afraid if you have done wrong and I say it is the same the world around.

Yes, some cops may take your lack of Japanese ability the wrong way, but what would they expect to gain by bringing you "downtown" if you can't understand them? They would probably just toss out the few English words they know (Passport! Passport!) and shrug you off if communication becomes impossible. Of course, if there were some situation where you HAD to do some communication, but then we are back to planning for a lot of contingencies.

Therefore, I think the language issue is irrelevant to the topic one's legal rights as a foreigner. Just my opinion.
If you have your passport and all they are doing checking that you have the correct papers to be in Japan then I doubt very much they would take you down town. Does it have anything to do with your leagal rights? Yes it does, b/c if you can't answer the officers questions and they are suspecting something then your right to temporay freedom will come into jeopardy pretty fast. And when it does, don't go complaining that you were unfairly treated and had your rights violated, this is reality.

Note: When I say you I mean anyone who thinks this way.

[FrustratedDave]

I'm curious of how MUCH of the issue of legal rights is related to language though... as that seems mostly based on misunderstandings rather than the following of the law.
Like I said before, misunderstandings can deprive you of your rights.

[Glenski]

Dave,
We're going to have to agree to disagree on a point or two, and unless you or I know of specific instances, what you say is merely speculation IMO. Neither of us knows for certain what will happen if "someone is suspected of something and the police are asking questions. And if this situation arises and you have done nothing wrong".

All we get is half the story and anyone who is quite fluent at Japanese now will be able to look back and see just how much misunderstanding you had in conversations ,but at the time still think that you understood everything perfectly. You can't expect the police to read you mind. At least they would try to speak English to you.You don't know they would try speaking English to you. Plus, you seem to keep coming back to an ill-defined solution of being fluent in Japanese. I'm asking how fluent, but you don't answer. Nice sidestep, but it is a non-answer that I take for being unable to answer, which only weakens your case.

You wrote that "misunderstandings (as a result of poor language fluency) can deprive you of your rights". No, the police or court system deprives you. Your poor language level only leads to it, and even so, there are cases where clear understanding of the language is not enough to stop police from doing what they want. Simple case is Debito's report from the Chitose airport where, despite his fluency and clear statements to the officer about his being Japanese, the officer asked him several times for his ID. A more complicated one and one with more far-reaching and serious tones is the false arrest and incarceration of a man, mostly because he was a foreigner and denied his rights. http://www.debito.org/?p=547 [I think this was the case. If not, it is still a case of heinous deprivation of human rights IN and out of jail.]

Emoni,
Your previous post only stated:
"There is plenty to talk about. Such as interpretations of the laws, rights groups that exist in Japan, stories that may appear in the future related to this."
I don't see any of that happening here. Speculation about language and the results, at best.

[Goldiegirl]

What are your rights, well I for one have found it's best not to test your rights and follow the rules and the laws. I don't break them and don't have trouble. I have no great desire to test out the legal system of any country, my own included!

[FrustratedDave]

Dave,
We're going to have to agree to disagree on a point or two, and unless you or I know of specific instances, what you say is merely speculation IMO. Neither of us knows for certain what will happen if "someone is suspected of something and the police are asking questions. And if this situation arises and you have done nothing wrong".
Of corse it is speculation, but it is just common sense that things could be cleared up much quicker if you know Japanese.
You don't know they would try speaking English to you. Plus, you seem to keep coming back to an ill-defined solution of being fluent in Japanese. I'm asking how fluent, but you don't answer. Nice sidestep, but it is a non-answer that I take for being unable to answer, which only weakens your case.
Huh??? Where did you ask how fluent someone needs to be, I recall you asking what kind of phrases would someone need to know? So I answered in my previous post, Quote by me "learn Japanese well enough to converse" . But if you want an answer to your new question,Which BTW is next to impossible to estimate, you have to be fluent enough to not misunderstand what you are being asked and be able to express yourself well enough for the other person get a full picture of what you are saying. So yeah , I would say you would have to know Japanese pretty well. Maybe a junior high school students level in speaking would be sufficient, which is pretty high. About the English point, when I was last pulled over for speeding, I was spoken to in English first. I answered in Japanese and from then on in not once did one of them try to explain anything in English. And for the purpose of the thread, my Japanese is the level of any other Japanese business man or women, no one knows I am not Japanese on the phone unless they know me, so it would be safe to say I have no "namari". Did this add to the reason why I why not asked for my alien card? I would say it was a very big factor.
You wrote that "misunderstandings (as a result of poor language fluency) can deprive you of your rights". No, the police or court system deprives you. Your poor language level only leads to it, and even so, there are cases where clear understanding of the language is not enough to stop police from doing what they want. Simple case is Debito's report from the Chitose airport where, despite his fluency and clear statements to the officer about his being Japanese, the officer asked him several times for his ID. A more complicated one and one with more far-reaching and serious tones is the false arrest and incarceration of a man, mostly because he was a foreigner and denied his rights. http://www.debito.org/?p=547 [I think this was the case. If not, it is still a case of heinous deprivation of human rights IN and out of jail.]
Leading to your rights being violated or actually having your rights violated due to language deficiencies, I don't know which one is worse. In any case you get my point.
Yeah , and that situation could not have been avoided? yeah right.... but Dave was looking for something else, we all know he is an equall rights advocater and if thats what he wants to do I don't mind. I listened to the tape and his answers were all done up to bait the cop, now this is only spectulation but he could avoided the whole situation if he stated the law first and then if he felt neccessary explain that he was Japanese.
And that last link you posted, a very concerning case for sure. And I don't want post on his misfortune and I hope he gets justice. But did that article just prove at least one of my points? a) The court interpreter (which the court appoints) was not very good. Consequently the judge didn’t understand Osayuwamen’s wife’s testimony. So they have to repeat the hearing and Osayuwamen has to languish in jail another month.
My point about being able to covey ones self, is this not depriving his rights due to the fact that she could not answer the court sufficiently? An extra month incarceration? Or am I missing something here?

[Pachipro]

Whether you like it or not or whether you agree with it or not, your legal rights in Japan are whatever the Japanese government says they are.

As Frustrated Dave (along with a few others like Goldie Girl) mentioned, if a policeman asks you for your passport or alien registration card and knows no other English, and you have done nothing wrong, SHOW IT TO HIM/HER and I am sure you will be on your way. Does anyone know of any foreigner being taken to the police station for showing their passport/registration card and not making a fuss? If so, please relate it here. Even though the police apologized to me when I produced my gaijin card at my home, they still took me in because it was the law, and the law is the law. As much as I disagreed with it and though it foolish, it was STILL THEIR LAW!

Face it, whether you are a citizen or not, you are a foreigner, plain and simple, end of story. Whether you are white or black, or Middle Eastern or Indian the sole reason for your being stopped IS that you look different. How is a Japanese policeman supposed to know you are a citizen unless you show him a Japanese passport?

I would've had much more respect for Debito if he had on his person his Japanese passport and showed it to the police. I doubt very much he would've received much hassle after presenting it and may have even received an apology. But noooo, he had to make a stink about it to push his agenda that the Japanese are racist and prejudiced against foreigners.

Heck, even I am smart enough to know that if I became a Japanese citizen, I would always carry my Japanese passport with me just to lessen the hassle if I were stopped.

Japan is not a melting pot like America or Canada or a few other countries. As far as I know, Japan is still a nation of Japanese/Chinese/Koreans who all look alike. I'm sure there are many Koreans and Chinese who never get stopped in the same vein as other "outsiders". Anyone who looks different had better prepare themselves to be stopped anytime, anywhere, anyplace. And please don't feed me anymore BS that they are prejudiced/racist. They are just doing their job and if a foreigner shows up in a place where there are known to be many protests by foreigners, then they should not cry when they are stopped.

Even if you know no Japanese whatsoever, all you have to do is produce your "papers" and I'm sure you will be on your way. Make a fuss and a stink and "demand your rights" because you are American, or Canadian, or European, etc., or even a foreign-looking Japanese citizen, and refuse to show them a passport, and you will be in for a hassle you will soon regret.

I'm sure there are a helluva lot of other countries far worse than Japan when it comes to dealing with foreigners.

[FrustratedDave]

I do agree with Pachipro.

[Charles Barkley]

Sigh... Charles where is your evidence that the people who voted on those polls had not already been to Japan? And heck, what is anyone doing when it comes to another language, learning perhaps, even those in Japan? Thanks for your insight... You know what the problem is with foriegners judging other foreigners Japanese ability, most of them can't speak reasonable Japanese so anyone who seems better than them MUST be good. But yet if to be evaluated by a native speaker they may still only have basic vocab and speaking skills.


Where is my evidence? Its in the link you provided--go through the list of people in that thread who have their location listed as 'Japan' and then see what the average number of kanji studied is (I am not actually asking you to do that of course, as it would be a herculean task). The creator of that thread himself had listed in his profile that he had never been to Japan, and if you read through it (which I had done in the past, which is why I called you on your bullshit reference to begin with) you would see that the majority of people who self-assess (there's another reason not to cite the poll) themselves as knowing only a few kanji list their locations as overseas.

I noted that it was a learner's forum because people who can read the paper are probably unlikely to be posting on there, though of course there are exceptions like Elizabeth and Orochi and occasionally yourself who are kind enough to go there to offer help.

I have nothing all to say about the level of Japanese amongst foreigners living in Japan, so no need for the little lecture at the end, as I am not purporting to know anything about the matter beyond my (necessarily) limited personal experience. My point was simply that neither should you.

ETA: a few people in that post who self-assessed themselves knowing 2000+ kanji said that they do so because they are Chinese. I don't know if your argument is about foreigners as a whole or more specifically about western foreigners, but if its the former a poll based on kanji knowledge would bode quite well for the 'average' foreigner in Japan.

[Glenski]

So, Dave, you are saying that in order to get by in Japan and avoid all of your problems with legal rights being abused by the Japanese police, foreigners shouldn't even be here unless they have the speaking ability of a Japanese teen (junior high student)? Totally impractical. Please acknowledge that.

As for your case with speeding, you only provided an isolated case again. I'm sorry, but even though I see your point on the advantages of knowing enough Japanese, this is just one situation.

Re: Debito
Yes, I felt he was baiting the police officer, too, but the fact remains that even after the cop showed that he understood Debito's status, he asked him to prove it again! At least the guy was naive enough to go running through the airport trying to get a native Japanese person to show ID, too (which he is not supposed to do), but the fact is, the cop was coming close to abusing Debito's rights. Was it because Debito is caucasian? Who can say? But, he clearly explained the situation and the cop asked for ID again.

Re: Idubor case
I think you may have misconstrued part of that case. You cited the part about the judge not understanding the defendant's wife. It was not because of her lack of Japanese. It was because of a poor court interpreter, which in itself is an enormous shame and legal shambles.

Pachipro wrote:
Even if you know no Japanese whatsoever, all you have to do is produce your "papers" and I'm sure you will be on your way. I'm sorry, but no, you don't know this for a fact. You cannot be 100% certain of this.

And please don't feed me anymore BS that they are prejudiced/racist. They are just doing their jobAnd, the governor of Tokyo does not utter racist comments, and the police do not provide input to racist magazines about "gaijin crime", nor does the police publish skewed (even false) crime statistics... Yeah, sure.

[Emoni]

Well said Glenski.

I do think there is middle ground on the issue of language and misunderstanding. While I agree that speaking the language will give rise to easier communication, at the same time the more Japanese I learn the more I understand and find serious issues that exist and see the danger of loop holes in the laws that must be followed (see the issue of showing id and the bike stuff, and the cops simply saying there may have been crimes recently)

Will I say that Japanese police suck and are evil. Of course not, but they are the ones with the power, so you better educate yourself and know how that power might be abused as well and arm yourself with SOME knowledge to fight back. I agree that the Japanese language falls in with that, but not quite in the way Dave is saying.

[FrustratedDave]

Where is my evidence? Its in the link you provided--go through the list of people in that thread who have their location listed as 'Japan' and then see what the average number of kanji studied is (I am not actually asking you to do that of course, as it would be a herculean task). The creator of that thread himself had listed in his profile that he had never been to Japan, and if you read through it (which I had done in the past, which is why I called you on your bullshit reference to begin with) you would see that the majority of people who self-assess (there's another reason not to cite the poll) themselves as knowing only a few kanji list their locations as overseas. What you may have failed to realise that a lot of those people who aren't in Japan and voted have a likelyhood of them already been to Japan but have since returned to where ever they are now and there is no way of determining that is there(That little flag thingy changes when you move bro). Which gos to show that if their ability was low ,that would mean their ability was low while they were in Japan. And no where did I say it was the be all to end all stats on people who know Japanese in Japan, however it is better than just taking my word for it. And now I am curious, you seem to be studying Japanese, how many of your friends can communicate as good as a first grader(I hope you know hoe well a firstgrader can speak Japanese) And this goes to another point on the average time spent in Japan for a foriegner, b/c unless you study before you come the shorter the time the less likely someone is to pick up the language. I would like to see stats on this.
I noted that it was a learner's forum because people who can read the paper are probably unlikely to be posting on there, though of course there are exceptions like Elizabeth and Orochi and occasionally yourself who are kind enough to go there to offer help.
I have nothing all to say about the level of Japanese amongst foreigners living in Japan, so no need for the little lecture at the end, as I am not purporting to know anything about the matter beyond my (necessarily) limited personal experience. My point was simply that neither should you.
ETA: a few people in that post who self-assessed themselves knowing 2000+ kanji said that they do so because they are Chinese. I don't know if your argument is about foreigners as a whole or more specifically about western foreigners, but if its the former a poll based on kanji knowledge would bode quite well for the 'average' foreigner in Japan.
So I have limited experience, no problem I leave that with you to judge my experience in Japan then.
I was not lecturing , just pointing out a fact. If it offends you bad luck b/c that is the way it is. It is like having an amature assess a pro athelets ability, from his/her standpoint the pro is very talented, but from a coaches standpoint the athelets ability could only be very mediocure. So if you keep that in mind and realise that Japanese beginers are amatures there oppinions on someones elses Japanese is pretty much worthless, this of corse will get better as you learn more of the language.


As for singleing out foriegners, the thread from the beginning has had many references about being stopped for the way you look (European, ect ,ect) So that is why I commented on "westerners" ability. Maybe if you read some of the thread you could have picked that up?

[FrustratedDave]

So, Dave, you are saying that in order to get by in Japan and avoid all of your problems with legal rights being abused by the Japanese police, foreigners shouldn't even be here unless they have the speaking ability of a Japanese teen (junior high student)? Totally impractical. Please acknowledge that. Glenski just so you don't get confussed and and start misinturpreting what people are writing I will show you a few quotes .My point is if you can't convey yourself in this countries language I think you you prepare yourself accordingly. It is not feasable to have a translator with every officer and nor should they have to. what was I talking about when I said accordingly? Another quote.b/c if you can't answer the officers questions and they are suspecting something then your right to temporay freedom will come into jeopardy pretty fast. And when it does, don't go complaining that you were unfairly treated and had your rights violated, this is reality.
Pure and simple, my point is that if you can't handle the way things are done here and your language ability or lack of it WILL makes things more difficult, you have three or maybe more options. #1, learn more Japanese to help things run more smoothly while you are here. #2, If you don't want to learn Japanese or can't for some reason, then suck it up if questioning becomes long and drawn out. #3 , The good old ,go home line. Just don't start crying fowl because you were qeustioned for 20 mins on a footpath after being questioned about your bike, or the many other circumstances someone may run into ect, ect, ect, ect.


But Glenski, read my posts and try not to twist my words to suit your agenda.
As for your case with speeding, you only provided an isolated case again. I'm sorry, but even though I see your point on the advantages of knowing enough Japanese, this is just one situation. But I have sighted many situation, but they were met with comments like, "But thats not what we are talking here" , I just must be the luckiest guy here not to be asked for my alien card and all the times that I have had to show some form of ID to the law for some reason or another and over the years it really does exceed into maybe hundreds of times due to the fact that I regulary have to go to the police station for my companies cars parking certificates and other things to do with business ect,ect and I have not once been asking for my alien card as proof of ID. The only time I pull that card out is at immigration and the airport.
Re: Debito
Yes, I felt he was baiting the police officer, too, but the fact remains that even after the cop showed that he understood Debito's status, he asked him to prove it again! At least the guy was naive enough to go running through the airport trying to get a native Japanese person to show ID, too (which he is not supposed to do), but the fact is, the cop was coming close to abusing Debito's rights. Was it because Debito is caucasian? Who can say? But, he clearly explained the situation and the cop asked for ID again. All I can say is that he did not have to show the ID in the end. Why was that? B/c Dave knows the language and the law, so again my point is proven that trouble can be averted if you know the language. However it could have been averted a hell of a lot quicker with a different approch.
Re: Idubor case
I think you may have misconstrued part of that case. You cited the part about the judge not understanding the defendant's wife. It was not because of her lack of Japanese. It was because of a poor court interpreter, which in itself is an enormous shame and legal shambles.

Now why would someone with good Japanese need an interpreter? The fact that she had an interpreter shows me that she was not equiped to answer the court and needed an interpreter, is that a fair assumption? If so , it again goes to my point that things are made a lot smoother for you if you speak the language.

[orochi]

Heck, even I am smart enough to know that if I became a Japanese citizen, I would always carry my Japanese passport with me just to lessen the hassle if I were stopped.
Japanese citizens are not legally obligated to carry identification.
Therefore they cannot be forced to show identification that they may very well likely not have on them.
And while we're talking about the law...
Even though the police apologized to me when I produced my gaijin card at my home, they still took me in because it was the law, and the law is the law. As much as I disagreed with it and though it foolish, it was STILL THEIR LAW!
Why do you adhere to the law in this quote, but still think that Japanese citizens of certain skill colors should feel obliged to carry identification? That is not in the law.

Now why would someone with good Japanese need an interpreter? The fact that she had an interpreter shows me that she was not equiped to answer the court and needed an interpreter

Whoa whoa whoa. Earlier you were saying that a foreigner should have the Japanese ability of a first grader. Now you are saying they should be able to conduct themselves in a courtroom? How high are you going to push this hurdle? Being able to handle daily matters, workplace chores, and social activities are one thing. Handling yourself in a legal dispute in a courtroom is entirely different.

[Charles Barkley]

What you may have failed to realise that a lot of those people who aren't in Japan and voted have a likelyhood of them already been to Japan but have since returned to where ever they are now and there is no way of determining that is there(That little flag thingy changes when you move bro).

Actually there is, bro. If you click on the profile link, it lists whether or not one has been to Japan before, which is how I was able to say the creator of the thread had never been to Japan. I am not sure why you would want to count those who 'have been to japan and since returned' as part of your statistics showing that foreigners 'IN JAPAN' on average have poor Japanese when that would only serve to further misrepresent the current population of foreigners in Japan (diluting it even further with those who stayed only temporarily), but I'll chalk it up as another attempt to avoid saying 'oops, my bad, I shouldn't have cited that ****** poll" (which by the way, I hold in much lower regard than your opinion).

Me personally? My experience in Japan is limited to JET and my experience in the countryside. Including myself, the percentage of JETs in my town with above a 1st graders Japanese level this past year was maybe 4-13. The other western foreigners in the area that I knew (a carpenter a housewife and one other guy) were also all above that level, so 7-16. What does this mean? Next to nothing I am sure, since my experience in no way represents Japan as a whole.

It is like having an amature assess a pro athelets ability, from his/her standpoint the pro is very talented, but from a coaches standpoint the athelets ability could only be very mediocure. So if you keep that in mind and realise that Japanese beginers are amatures there oppinions on someones elses Japanese is pretty much worthless, this of corse will get better as you learn more of the language.

I am having difficulty figuring out what you are trying to say here. What is this bit in reference to, and who are the pros/who are the amateurs? Am I naive to think you are not just trying to brag about your own Japanese and put down others in the thread?

[FrustratedDave]

Whoa whoa whoa. Earlier you were saying that a foreigner should have the Japanese ability of a first grader. Now you are saying they should be able to conduct themselves in a courtroom? How high are you going to push this hurdle? Being able to handle daily matters, workplace chores, and social activities are one thing. Handling yourself in a legal dispute in a courtroom is entirely different.
I never said that someone needs an ability of a first grader, I said that half the foriegners here have ablility less than a first grader. In reagrds to the topic about how "fluent" you need to be to get by I said this, But if you want an answer to your new question,Which BTW is next to impossible to estimate, you have to be fluent enough to not misunderstand what you are being asked and be able to express yourself well enough for the other person get a full picture of what you are saying. So yeah , I would say you would have to know Japanese pretty well. Maybe a junior high school students level in speaking would be sufficient, which is pretty high.
So there it is ,I even put it in bold so you would not make a mistake this time.
Look , read the posts I have written and don't try to connect dots that are not there. You have a bad habbit of doing this.







Actually there is, bro. If you click on the profile link, it lists whether or not one has been to Japan before, which is how I was able to say the creator of the thread had never been to Japan.

But yet when I click a member (mike Cash) who has been here a very , very long time low and behold it says he has never been to Japan... Gasp, is he lying or really has not been here? Here is the link for you. http://www.jref.com/forum/member.php?u=36
So no, you can't just do what you are impplying.

I am not sure why you would want to count those who 'have been to japan and since returned' as part of your statistics showing that foreigners 'IN JAPAN' on average have poor Japanese when that would only serve to further misrepresent the current population of foreigners in Japan (diluting it even further with those who stayed only temporarily), but I'll chalk it up as another attempt to avoid saying 'oops, my bad, I shouldn't have cited that ****** poll" (which by the way, I hold in much lower regard than your opinion). Well, they had already been in Japan which says that while they were here they were not that capable in Japanese. And I never said the poll was an absolute b/c it actually states a figure of much higher percentage of people who don't know much Japanese, so please don't imply that I am trying to make something out of nothing, b/c I took thos ethings into consideration that you stated above.
Me personally? My experience in Japan is limited to JET and my experience in the countryside. Including myself, the percentage of JETs in my town with above a 1st graders Japanese level this past year was maybe 4-13. The other western foreigners in the area that I knew (a carpenter a housewife and one other guy) were also all above that level, so 7-16. What does this mean? Next to nothing I am sure, since my experience in no way represents Japan as a whole. And I have met about 30 Jets give or take and I only knew 3 or 4 that had reasonable Japanese ability and one guy that was very good, but he was a jet a long, long time ago ,he has since married and moved here.

You think I am so wrong, get some data to prove me wrong. I will happly conceed to you, but untill someones does this sites info is all we have to go on.
I am having difficulty figuring out what you are trying to say here. What is this bit in reference to, and who are the pros/who are the amateurs? Am I naive to think you are not just trying to brag about your own Japanese and put down others in the thread?
If you think I am trying brag about my Japanese than you certainly understand the analogy, so don't say you don't understand what I am trying to convey when you do. And who are the pros and amateurs, well the pros would be the native speaker and anyone who is on the same level and the amateurs would be the beginers and anyone in between can be ranked just like an aspiring pro athelete. So as you make your way up that ladder and your language ability increases ,along with it will be the ability to Judge someones elses Japanese ability correctly. And too answer the querstion you are going to ask "how does someone rank this ability?" you don't , the more you learn the more you will understand.

And for the record speaking about the way something is and this is the way it is for anything that involves some sort of assesment , does not automaticaly mean that I am applying that situation to me personally, so no, I am not trying to brag about anything, only someone who is insecure about him/herself will take it that way.In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? Would you like to learn Japanese off someone who is mediocre at Japanese or a native speaker?

[orochi]

I even put it in bold so you would not make a mistake this time.

Your patronizing tone spurns the debate forward in an even more promising direction...

But yet when I click a member (mike Cash) who has been here a very , very long time low and behold it says he has never been to Japan...

So you admit the data is unreliable? Then why did you even cite it to prove your case? I am confused. Are you just trolling this thread?

[Glenski]

Sigh. Dave, I can see some of your points, and I hope that you recognize that I agree with them. However, there are some that you just don't seem to get. Or you just aren't explaining clearly.

#1 and foremost, please don't say that I twist words to suit any agenda. I don't twist words. I try to understand them. And, I have no "agenda". You make me sound conspiratorial.

Second, what the heck does this sentence mean? The English is so badly worded that I can't understand it in order to respond.
And this goes to another point on the average time spent in Japan for a foriegner, b/c unless you study before you come the shorter the time the less likely someone is to pick up the language.

my point is that if you can't handle the way things are done here and your language ability or lack of it WILL makes things more difficult, you have three or maybe more options.I hope that I have shown you that I agree with this.

What becomes confusing is the way you wrote earlier. It appears (to me anyway) that you are advocating that people shouldn't even come here to live until they know enough Japanese to handle interrogations (even simple ones) by the police. I oppose that sort of thinking, but can you just clarify if this is what you meant or not? I'm getting the impression now that you don't feel that way.

Just don't start crying fowl because you were qeustioned for 20 mins on a footpath after being questioned about your bike, or the many other circumstances someone may run into ect, ect, ect, ect.I don't think it is the time factor here that people complain about. The chief complaint is the reason they are stopped and asked for ID. Do you think that for the people who are stopped for very little reason, they deserve it? If it appears that a foreigner is being interrogated only because he is a foreigner, that's wrong and illegal, and that's what some of us are complaining about, no matter how good or bad one's Japanese fluency is.

All I can say is that he did not have to show the ID in the end. Why was that? B/c Dave knows the language and the law,I'm sorry, but your logic is wrong. He did not have to show ID because he asserted that he was a naturalized citizen (several times), and police cannot ask citizens for ID. Remember that the cop initially asked if it was ok if they spoke in Japanese. We don't know if he could also have communicated with Debito in English. Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. The issue was not language fluency and communication. It was the fact of his citizenship. Did the language make it easier to understand that? Obviously NOT, for reasons I have already explained!

As for your own situations, you are really mixing them up. You cited being stopped only once for speeding (once that I recall, anyway). Isolated incident. Then, you try to add to that situation (where you were not asked for ID) the many times you voluntarily conducted business with the police, which is a totally different thing from facing the possibility of having your human rights abused in a confrontational situation where you are suspected of a crime. Please stop coming back to this. Why were you never asked? Yes, because of your language skills, but also because there was no confrontation, only business!

Now why would someone with good Japanese need an interpreter? The fact that she had an interpreter shows me that she was not equiped to answer the court and needed an interpreter, is that a fair assumption?Idubor's wife did not have good enough Japanese skills to directly voice her statements in court, yes. That's why she needed an interpreter -- to translate her statements. However, the interpreter did such a crappy job that the statements he/she voiced for her were poorly translated, and that is the major problem here, not that Idubor's wife's language fluency is weak. So, yes, yes, yes, you are right in that if she had been highly fluent, she might have voiced her statements better, but that is not the issue in that story. Get it?

[FrustratedDave]

Your patronizing tone spurns the debate forward in an even more promising direction...I am not the one misquoting and I am fed up with people twsiting what is being said.
I appologise if I was rude.



So you admit the data is unreliable? Then why did you even cite it to prove your case? I am confused. Are you just trolling this thread?
Although there may be a few inconsistencies in the poll ,it still has some truth about it. But why are we now debating why I used this poll? If you have any data to refute my experiences than I am all ears.

[orochi]

But why are we now debating why I used this poll?

Because we are trying to figure out how valid your argument is based on the resources you are citing. Don't offer "evidence" if you don't want it scrutinized.

[FrustratedDave]

Sigh. Dave, I can see some of your points, and I hope that you recognize that I agree with them. However, there are some that you just don't seem to get. Or you just aren't explaining clearly.

#1 and foremost, please don't say that I twist words to suit any agenda. I don't twist words. I try to understand them. And, I have no "agenda". You make me sound conspiratorial.

Second, what the heck does this sentence mean? The English is so badly worded that I can't understand it in order to respond.
If I did not word things clearly enough I am sorry.
This sentence,And this goes to another point on the average time spent in Japan for a foriegner, b/c unless you study before you come the shorter the time the less likely someone is to pick up the language.
What I was trying to say was, I would like to know the average time spent living in Japan for a western foriegner?

I hope that I have shown you that I agree with this.

What becomes confusing is the way you wrote earlier. It appears (to me anyway) that you are advocating that people shouldn't even come here to live until they know enough Japanese to handle interrogations (even simple ones) by the police. I oppose that sort of thinking, but can you just clarify if this is what you meant or not? I'm getting the impression now that you don't feel that way. I see that you agreed with me.
And as for the second segment. No , the opposite, come to Japan and have a good time. But those who do need to realise they are in another country with different rules and should not complain if something or someone inconveniences them due to their lack of langauge skills, b/c 9 times out of 10 it is not the fault of the other person but in fact theirs. So to sum it up, don't whinge and whine b/c you don't get the same treatment as home.


I don't think it is the time factor here that people complain about. The chief complaint is the reason they are stopped and asked for ID. Do you think that for the people who are stopped for very little reason, they deserve it? If it appears that a foreigner is being interrogated only because he is a foreigner, that's wrong and illegal, and that's what some of us are complaining about, no matter how good or bad one's Japanese fluency is.
From the many articles I have read inconveniences are also a big complaint.
My opinion is that, if it happens to other Japanese then yes ,I don't see a problem and it has been established that it does(happen to Japanese). Is the ratio tipped in favour of a foriegn looking person being asked over a asian looking person, I don't know? But , I do know there is more rules to be broken by a foriegner for them to more frequently like visa overstay, so I say that the police have every right to ask foriegn people for ID even if the incidence is quite a bit more than the asking Japanese.

I'm sorry, but your logic is wrong. He did not have to show ID because he asserted that he was a naturalized citizen (several times), and police cannot ask citizens for ID. Remember that the cop initially asked if it was ok if they spoke in Japanese. We don't know if he could also have communicated with Debito in English. Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. The issue was not language fluency and communication. It was the fact of his citizenship. Did the language make it easier to understand that? Obviously NOT, for reasons I have already explained!
I don't see it as being wrong, b/c I am arguing that language ability allows you to avoid complications and Dave avoided that by YES saying he was a naturalized citizen and quoting the law. My point I was making was that if someone could not clearly convey that , they would have complications in that situation. I didn't comment on him being asked in the first place and whether that was wrong or not, b/c I think we already discussed that topic.
As for your own situations, you are really mixing them up. You cited being stopped only once for speeding (once that I recall, anyway). Isolated incident. Then, you try to add to that situation (where you were not asked for ID) the many times you voluntarily conducted business with the police, which is a totally different thing from facing the possibility of having your human rights abused in a confrontational situation where you are suspected of a crime. Please stop coming back to this. Why were you never asked? Yes, because of your language skills, but also because there was no confrontation, only business! I just saw the relevance due to the fact that if police are indeed racially motivated then I don't see why they could not in fact ask for my alien card as one of the two forms of ID. But I have not experienced that.

Idubor's wife did not have good enough Japanese skills to directly voice her statements in court, yes. That's why she needed an interpreter -- to translate her statements. However, the interpreter did such a crappy job that , and that is the major problem here, not that Idubor's wife's language fluency is weak. So, yes, yes, yes, you are right in that if she had been highly fluent, she might have voiced her statements better, but that is not the issue in that story. Get it?I get it and like I said in my earlier post I don't want to post on the case, but the fact that language plays a part.

I would find it hard to discuss that case due to the fact that non of us would be able to know the whole story. And I have my doubts that Dave does either. (unless he is intimately involved in the case)

[FrustratedDave]

Because we are trying to figure out how valid your argument is based on the resources you are citing. Don't offer "evidence" if you don't want it scrutinized.
I didn't say I didn't say I did not want it scrutinized and I have not complained otherwise. Anyone can argue the validity of the data with their opinions and so can I.

[Glenski]

Dave,
Please stop repeating yourself and ignoring the matter at hand here. That matter is this -- foreigners often have their human rights abused in Japan. It may or may not have anything to do with their ability to communicate in Japanese. You say it does, and I say it does not. You cite 9 out of 10 cases are the fault of the foreigner's lack of sufficient Japanese. Ok, I put it to you now to support that with facts and data.

You find it hard to post on matters related to the Idubor case? The only matter to discuss is this one -- a Japanese translator screwed up in court and the law let him get away with it, so this led to shoddy treatment of a foreigner who is still suffering physically in prison when there was no proven evidence to put or keep him there. It does not, nor did it then, matter about language fluency of the defendant or his wife in that case.

BTW, why is it so important to know how long the average western foreigner has stayed in Japan? How do you define western? Are you counting tourists? (They may have different immigration regulations that limit them here.) If you really want some figures, I believe the average case (not counting tourists) is 3 years. If pressed, I think I could find the data itself. Let's go with this figure for laughs, ok? What now?

[pipokun]

Please don't forget that Japanese people are also interrogated, not the non-Japanese only stuff.

[Pachipro]

Pachipro wrote:
Even if you know no Japanese whatsoever, all you have to do is produce your "papers" and I'm sure you will be on your way.
I'm sorry, but no, you don't know this for a fact. You cannot be 100% certain of this.


And please don't feed me anymore BS that they are prejudiced/racist. They are just doing their job


And, the governor of Tokyo does not utter racist comments, and the police do not provide input to racist magazines about "gaijin crime", nor does the police publish skewed (even false) crime statistics... Yeah, sure.

C'mon Glenski, I am certain almost 100% because I have never heard of a case where someone was taken in for showing their gaijin card when they have done nothing wrong. Nor have I ever experienced it myself in all the cases, save one, when I had it on my person. If that were the case I would have a nice lawsuit on my hand and would probably win with the right lawyer these days. And neither did I know anyone who it ever happened to. Therefore, I stand by my comment and as I mentioned, if you know of one please post it here as I would be very interested.

Also, like Frustrated Dave, I WAS NEVER asked for my gaijin card the few times I was stopped in my car for a drunk check or when I was caught once for speeding. NEVER! Why do you find that so isolated and rare? I'm sure it happens often on a daily basis.

As far as the governor of Tokyo is concerned or a few police here and there, and stories to the magazines, of course there always will be isolated incidents just as there are here in the US and other countries. Overall, the majority of politicians and police are not as racist as you would have everyone believe. It is NORMAL and SH*T HAPPENS EVERYWHERE! Hellooooooo! That doesn't make it right or makes it justified, but it happens in all countries concerning foreigners. ALL COUNTRIES! Not just in Japan. Did those remarks or stories sway Japanese opinion as a whole against foreigners? Probably not as most Japanese probably see it for what it is and, besides, the magazine articles were refuted.

I can point you to a many articles here in the US where politicians have said much in the same vein as the Tokyo governor, and more than a few articles in magazines and such saying the same exact thing about foreigners here in the US. Again it does not make it right, but it DOES happen and always will till ever and ever, amen.

Therefore, one must prepare themselves for the fact that it may happen to them in a foreign country, but please don't be surprised when it does. In 99.9999% of the cases nothing will happen if you carry your papers, don't make a fuss, and show them when asked.

[Charles Barkley]

You think I am so wrong, get some data to prove me wrong. I will happly conceed to you, but untill someones does this sites info is all we have to go on.

I wish I could get some data--that was my whole point in continuing to read the thread! Perhaps I was unclear in my previous post where I said that I had nothing at all to say about language ability of foreigners in Japan. Let me state it again then: I have nothing at all to say. I was not saying you were wrong. Nor was I saying Orochi was right. I was interested in the discussion and would like to see some decent statistics on the subject, so I was reading along hoping someone would be able to offer some. My only objection has been to your continued insistence that the JREF poll holds any credibility. As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. As this was just a small point which I was hoping you would quickly acknowledge, I will let it go here and not further clog the real discussion.


If you think I am trying brag about my Japanese than you certainly understand the analogy, so don't say you don't understand what I am trying to convey when you do.

I am not trying to brag about anything, only someone who is insecure about him/herself will take it that way.In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? Would you like to learn Japanese off someone who is mediocre at Japanese or a native speaker?

Again I am failing to understand your analogy--who is hiring whom for what job? And what does preferring to learn from a native speaker have to do with anything?

As far as I can tell, you have introduced the language argument as a way to brag about yourself (is there any other way to interpret your going on about 'no namari'), label others as unqualified to comment, and justify why you, unlike the unfortunate individuals being described in the thread, have escaped illegal, unjust treatment. Impressive egoism.

[Pachipro]

Originally Posted by Pachipro
Heck, even I am smart enough to know that if I became a Japanese citizen, I would always carry my Japanese passport with me just to lessen the hassle if I were stopped.
Japanese citizens are not legally obligated to carry identification.
Therefore they cannot be forced to show identification that they may very well likely not have on them.
And while we're talking about the law...

Originally Posted by Pachipro
Even though the police apologized to me when I produced my gaijin card at my home, they still took me in because it was the law, and the law is the law. As much as I disagreed with it and though it foolish, it was STILL THEIR LAW!
Why do you adhere to the law in this quote, but still think that Japanese citizens of certain skill colors should feel obliged to carry identification? That is not in the law.

I KNOW Japanese are not required to show ID orochi, and I was NOT inferring that they were. You misunderstood my post. I was referring to the fact that IF IT WERE ME and I was a Japanese citizen, I WOULD MYSELF carry my Japanese passport with me to lessen the hassle and smooth things over as I totally do not look Japanese so why would a Japanese official think I was? Japan is not the US or the UK or Canada where it is understood and ACCEPTED that many nationalities are citizens. Even still, racial profiling exists in all those countries.

[pipokun]

...
illegal, unjust treatment.
...


Not nitpicking, but nobody explains why it is illegal and unjust.

(taiko666 seems to provide some explanation related to immorality here before. Interesting, but this thread is about legal rights/requirements)

The law gives us the same protection.
The problem is when those in power choose to offer varying levels.
This could be a police officer or a hotel manager.
This is where the problem is--execution and enforcement of the law.

Orochi's argument, something like the above, the same protection under the law is right. But the opinions, illegal/unjust, are mixed up 2 different laws, the law on the police stop & question and the legal requirement based on the immigration act for non-Japanese to show their ID at the official request.

Different law, different execution/enforcement (or simply a different procedure)

[Pachipro]

[/quote=Glenski]
Just don't start crying fowl because you were qeustioned for 20 mins on a footpath after being questioned about your bike, or the many other circumstances someone may run into ect, ect, ect, ect.

I don't think it is the time factor here that people complain about. The chief complaint is the reason they are stopped and asked for ID. Do you think that for the people who are stopped for very little reason, they deserve it? If it appears that a foreigner is being interrogated only because he is a foreigner, that's wrong and illegal, and that's what some of us are complaining about, no matter how good or bad one's Japanese fluency is.


All I can say is that he did not have to show the ID in the end. Why was that? B/c Dave knows the language and the law,

I'm sorry, but your logic is wrong. He did not have to show ID because he asserted that he was a naturalized citizen (several times), and police cannot ask citizens for ID. Remember that the cop initially asked if it was ok if they spoke in Japanese. We don't know if he could also have communicated with Debito in English. Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. The issue was not language fluency and communication. It was the fact of his citizenship. Did the language make it easier to understand that? Obviously NOT, for reasons I have already explained!


The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! Japan is not other countries as I have mentioned countless of times, but you fail to acknowledge it! Why do you fail to see this and understand this? Would I, as a foreigner, and NOT a Japanese citizen, be able to claim, "I am a citizen! You have no right to ask me for my ID!"?

In your thinking, it would be perfectable acceptable and preferable for the police to say, "Oh OK. Please go on your way." Then I commit a terrorist act. Can''t you see the logic here for them stopping all non-Japanese/Korean/Chinese looking persons whether they be citizens or not? I fail to understand your thinking here or I must be a complete idiot as I do not think it wrong for a foreigner or foreign looking person to be stopped for his ID in Japan. In the US, or Canada, etc, probably, but not in Japan. It is not wrong, nor is it illegal IMO for the reasons stated regardless of how good one's Japanese is as I'm sure there are many "terrorists" (for lack of a better word) who speak the language of the country they wish to do harm to fluently and are probably well versed in their culture also.

In Debito's case, the only logical way he could prove his citizenship, as he did not look Japanese is to produce a passport whether he was fluent in Japanese or not as how in God's name is a policeman supposed to know that for sure? Because he said so? Quite illogical IMO.

Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner? And where is written that it is an abuse of your human rights? Is there a "World Constitution" regarding human rights of a foreigner in a foreign country where it is forbidden for the the authorities to ask for proper ID? Until there is I will see no problem with Japanese asking for ID whether you are just walking in the street and minding your own business or riding your bicycle.

And, if there were such a "World Constitution" guaranteeing this right, I'm sure terrorists acts and crime would rise substantially in all countries of the world. And who would we have to blame? The police who were just doing their job and obeying the law by not asking suspicious people and/or foreigners for their ID, or the people who insisted on such an inane law?

Until Japan becomes a nation of immigrants where any person, regardless of their looks, could be "Japanese" and, therefore, the police would be wrong to ask them for their ID, I see no reason to claim abuse of human rights or prejudice/racism when they ask you for your ID.

But, if that were to happen, then it would not be Japan anymore would it? It would be just like any other mundane western country and why would anyone want to live there then? With all it's flaws, and the few "hassles" foreigners have to face, Japan is unique (as well as many other Asian countries) and I hope it stays that way.

[Emoni]

[INDENT][/quote=Glenski]
The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! Japan is not other countries as I have mentioned countless of times, but you fail to acknowledge it! Why do you fail to see this and understand this? Would I, as a foreigner, and NOT a Japanese citizen, be able to claim, "I am a citizen! You have no right to ask me for my ID!"?

Until Japan becomes a nation of immigrants where any person, regardless of their looks, could be "Japanese" and, therefore, the police would be wrong to ask them for their ID, I see no reason to claim abuse of human rights or prejudice/racism when they ask you for your ID.

But, if that were to happen, then it would not be Japan anymore would it? It would be just like any other mundane western country and why would anyone want to live there then? With all it's flaws, and the few "hassles" foreigners have to face, Japan is unique (as well as many other Asian countries) and I hope it stays that way.


This makes perfect logical sense... until 2 seconds later when you realize how racist this actually is. Then you get a shiver realizing how easily mindsets are justified like this, how how this is the very logic that so much is justified in Japan. Let alone the situation of foreigners dealing with police stops "just because" they are foreign.

Pachipro I love your posts, but I hope you carefully reread what you just posted here. Then go read a few articles on racism in Japan and other ethnicities, read on how slavery and other issues were justified, and I truly hope you question this idea of "keeping Japan pure" in whatever exact sense you might have in your mind.

[Glenski]

Pachipro,
Your profile says you have not lived here for the past 20 years. Things have changed somewhat since 1988.

Japan is not other countries as I have mentioned countless of times, but you fail to acknowledge it!I don't fail to acknowledge it at all. It has no bearing anyway (the fact that Japan is not like other countries, if that's what you mean). Japan signed an international treaty against racial discrimination, yet that was over 10 years ago, and it has yet to enact a single law to enforce that treaty. Reason? They say it would be hard to enforce. Sigh.

As for "The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! " Just looking foreign is not reason enough according to the law, but police abuse that law.

As far as the governor of Tokyo is concerned or a few police here and there, and stories to the magazines, of course there always will be isolated incidentsOh, come on! What nonsense!
1) Those are NOT isolated incidents.
2) To say they happen and shrug them off as isolated is putting on blinders and ignoring the problem.

In your thinking, it would be perfectable acceptable and preferable for the police to say, "Oh OK. Please go on your way." Then I commit a terrorist act. Can''t you see the logic here for them stopping all non-Japanese/Korean/Chinese looking persons whether they be citizens or not?Don't put words in my mouth. You obviously have not read a single word that I wrote about the reasons police stop foreigners and how wrong this is. I can't debate with people who do that.

Besides, no foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act in Japan, or haven't you heard? Don't throw out that lame excuse like a Japanese politician or cop or immigration official.

Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner?Why don't you?

[FrustratedDave]

I wish I could get some data--that was my whole point in continuing to read the thread! Perhaps I was unclear in my previous post where I said that I had nothing at all to say about language ability of foreigners in Japan. Let me state it again then: I have nothing at all to say. I was not saying you were wrong. Nor was I saying Orochi was right. I was interested in the discussion and would like to see some decent statistics on the subject, so I was reading along hoping someone would be able to offer some. My only objection has been to your continued insistence that the JREF poll holds any credibility. As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. As this was just a small point which I was hoping you would quickly acknowledge, I will let it go here and not further clog the real discussion.
Again I am failing to understand your analogy--who is hiring whom for what job? And what does preferring to learn from a native speaker have to do with anything?
As far as I can tell, you have introduced the language argument as a way to brag about yourself (is there any other way to interpret your going on about 'no namari'), label others as unqualified to comment, and justify why you, unlike the unfortunate individuals being described in the thread, have escaped illegal, unjust treatment. Impressive egoism.
Ok, Charles I will explain my reasoning. As you said Quote " As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. " ,I provided my own oppinon and my reasoning for posting about my Japanese ability (even though I knew I would ridiculed for it , and seen as just trying to show off) was to establish that someone with good Japanese can in fact get by and avoid a lot of trouble. If you want to believe I was braging that is your prerogative.

As for my analogy, they are seperate posts and have nothing to do with my language ability and they were seperate posts, that is all there is to it.

But if you can't understand it(analogy) then I am lost for words as I am finding it difficult to make it simpler. Does anyone else understand what I am trying to say?
Anyway I will try to explain further for you.
In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? Would you like to learn Japanese off someone who is mediocre at Japanese or a native speaker?It is like having an amateur assess a pro athelets ability, from his/her standpoint the pro is very talented, but from a coaches standpoint the athelets ability could only be very mediocure. So if you keep that in mind and realise that Japanese beginers are amatures there oppinions on someones elses Japanese is pretty much worthless, this of corse will get better as you learn more of the language.
You seem to like basketball with a handle like yours so I will try to explain in basketball terms.
Lets say Mr A 35 years old, is a beginer who has just started the game and had never had any intrest before and is bsically starting from scratch. He can do the basic skills driblle the ball ect, ect. Then there is Mr B 35 years old, is a Pro Basketballer for 10 years, and was MVP many times over, so quite a good athelete in the Pro world and very skill full at his game.
Now lets say YOU Charles are in the business of scouting players and you need a scout to scout for pro teams and the better the player you scout the more money you receive if they turn Pro. Now these two guys Mr A and Mr B are the only applicants for the job, both are willing to accept the terms offered by you. Who would YOU choose to fill the position if you were in this postion? Mr B of corse, why have a guy Mr A who has just started basketball and knew nothing about the game or skills untill recently, how could he assess the players skills? Mr B however knows everything there is to know about the game and then some.

So now we apply this analogy. Again, lets say you run a company of providing translators for big firms and are in the market for someone to fill the postion of hiring, so this person has to assess the ability of the applicants Japanese. Of corse the better the translater the better the money for the company. Only two applicants apply, Mr A a 35 year old, who has just started learning Japanese recently and Mr B a 35 year old , who has lived here for over 20 years , went to school here from highschool to college and has worked in a typical Japanese company up until now. Who are YOU going to choose? Again Mr B of corse. Why? B/c Mr A does not know his a$$ from his nose when it comes to judging someones ability in Japanese b/c he himself does not understand Japanese to the extent required. Now lets say Mr C a 35 year old who has lived here for 5 years since he was 30, has studied Japanese for those 5 years, but because you can only learn so much in the time he still has a long way to go, but can speak quite well and is doing pretty good in the writing department too. Again who would you choose to fill your postion in the company? Again Mr A, why? B/c although Mr C is qiute good he still won't be able to assess someones ability as he himself does not have a good enough grasp on the language even after studing for 5 years.

And the hiring an amateur for a pros job question was a rhetorical one.

If you really want some figures, I believe the average case (not counting tourists) is 3 years. This is interesting as you have to wonder how good someone could get at Japanese in a 3 year period? That is considering that not everyone studies full time and some don't even bother at all.
Anyway, charles I hope you got the meaning this time and can see how I am trying to relate it to people who are still in the learning phase of Japanese would find it difficult to assess another foriengers language ability, that is all I am trying to say. I am notsaying that I am the only one that can do it b/c that is a load crap, there are people here know the langauge better than me and like I said before if you think thats what I am trying prove, well that is your prerogative.

[Glenski]

In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? I can see you have had little or no experience in eikaiwa, or you don't understand the eikaiwa marketing logic.

This is interesting as you have to wonder how good someone could get at Japanese in a 3 year period? That is considering that not everyone studies full time and some don't even bother at all.Why is it interesting? Go ahead and wonder. There are those who do both things you describe above, and everything in between. I would hazard a guess that most TEFL newcomers learn scant little, by choice, and very few people study full-time (whatever that means, especially since it's hard when you are working).

Just thought I'd respond more fully to Pachipro, who wrote:
Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner? And where is written that it is an abuse of your human rights?The answer is in the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2:
"A police officer is able to ask for a person's ID, but only if based on a reasonable judgment of a situation where the police officer sees some strange conduct and some crime is being committed, or else he has enough reason to suspect that a person will commit or has commited a crime, or else it has been acknowledged that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. In these cases, a police officer may stop a person for questioning."

So, there you have it. No World Constitution needed. The problem is, police officers bend this law a lot when they encounter situations where they question only the foreigners.

Also, just for edification and education, there is another clause that states police officers cannot force you to go to the police station or koban against your will unless they are arresting you.

[Charles Barkley]

Dave: I understand what you are trying to say and it does indeed seem to be a self-evident point--that those more familiar with something will be better at judging it. That part I was always clear about, so I guess I was not clear enough about asking you to explain precisely what I didn't understand, which is: what work do you want the analogy to do (how does it apply to your overall argument in this thread)?

I assume you mean that because you are quite skilled at Japanese, you would be more qualified than say, a person like me, who has decent Japanese but is still clearly in the process of learning, to judge foreigners' Japanese levels. This seems obvious. I am able to distinguish the Japanese level of most Japanese learners, as I am a decent level now myself, but if I had to distinguish between two near native speakers, I would not yet be aware of the criteria by which to judge them. On this, who could disagree with you?

If, however, you are saying that by dint of your Japanese knowledge, you would be able to somewhat accurately judge the overall level of foreigners in Japan--here I would object. Everyone sees a different cross section of Japan, and even if you have lived here for a long time, seen the country from different perspectives, and meant many foreigners, it would be very possible to have a skewed perception for some reason or other. If you run in a circle of translators, academics, or working professionals, you might be overexposed to high level Japanese. If you run with the military or NOVA teachers, perhaps the opposite. Without demographic statistics, the average person's opinion has to be taken with an ocean of salt

Of course the qualities you seem to possess--having a high knowledge of the language and having seen many sides of Japan--would make you as good as a layman without comprehensive statistics at hand could hope to be, however another layman with seemingly similar qualifications, Orochi, disagreed with you, which is what prompted the search for statistics to begin with.

If the point behind your analogy was to defend your assertion that foreigners' japanese level is poor by asserting yourself as an authority on the matter (have I understood the point of your analogy correctly?), in my mind you have only also established as an authority another who contradicts you. Since the JREF stats are junk, that leaves us looking for better statistics or dropping the point...

[FrustratedDave]

Dave: I understand what you are trying to say and it does indeed seem to be a self-evident point--that those more familiar with something will be better at judging it. That part I was always clear about, so I guess I was not clear enough about asking you to explain precisely what I didn't understand, which is: what work do you want the analogy to do (how does it apply to your overall argument in this thread)? Now I see where I was misunderstanding you. My point I was trying to make was about the right for foriegners to be able to vote just because they pay taxes. I was trying to point out that if you don't completely understand the language then it would be impossible to make a competent decision for the good of the country and a lot of foriegners don't know the language so it would be unfair on a Japanese citizen to have this thrust upon them. Well ,that was the basic outline, of corse it is more compplicated then that.

I assume you mean that because you are quite skilled at Japanese, you would be more qualified than say, a person like me, who has decent Japanese but is still clearly in the process of learning, to judge foreigners' Japanese levels. This seems obvious. I am able to distinguish the Japanese level of most Japanese learners, as I am a decent level now myself, but if I had to distinguish between two near native speakers, I would not yet be aware of the criteria by which to judge them. On this, who could disagree with you? Thank you for your candor.


If, however, you are saying that by dint of your Japanese knowledge, you would be able to somewhat accurately judge the overall level of foreigners in Japan--here I would object. Everyone sees a different cross section of Japan, and even if you have lived here for a long time, seen the country from different perspectives, and meant many foreigners, it would be very possible to have a skewed perception for some reason or other. If you run in a circle of translators, academics, or working professionals, you might be overexposed to high level Japanese. If you run with the military or NOVA teachers, perhaps the opposite. Without demographic statistics, the average person's opinion has to be taken with an ocean of salt By anyones standards my oppinion or anyones else oppinion is only speculation and I would never be so arrogant to assume that I know better. I totally agree with you on experiences and everyones is different. I am lucky enough to have worked in many different feilds here before I settled down to what I am doing now. I agree totally with your last statment too.

Of course the qualities you seem to possess--having a high knowledge of the language and having seen many sides of Japan--would make you as good as a layman without comprehensive statistics at hand could hope to be, however another layman with seemingly similar qualifications, Orochi, disagreed with you, which is what prompted the search for statistics to begin with. Which is why I kept asking for statistics, b/c I know my oppinion is not the be all to end all. I am hoping someone will come up with someything b/c I find it very interesting.

If the point behind your analogy was to defend your assertion that foreigners' japanese level is poor by asserting yourself as an authority on the matter (have I understood the point of your analogy correctly?), in my mind you have only also established as an authority another who contradicts you. Since the JREF stats are junk, that leaves us looking for better statistics or dropping the point...My analogy was to simply express that if infact the majority of non-westerners really did not possess the skills of a kindregarten student it would be hard for them to make an informed opinion on the topic of Japanese levels, generally speaking.
I agree, if no one can produce the stats then there really is nothing left to talk about.

[Glenski]

Now I see where I was misunderstanding you. My point I was trying to make was about the right for foriegners to be able to vote just because they pay taxes. I was trying to point out that if you don't completely understand the language then it would be impossible to make a competent decision for the good of the country and a lot of foriegners don't know the language so it would be unfair on a Japanese citizen to have this thrust upon them.Rubbish! How many of your fellow countrymen and women have voted back home for idiots, and that was in their own language!?

[pipokun]

Just thought I'd respond more fully to Pachipro, who wrote:
The answer is in the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2:
"A police officer is able to ask for a person's ID, but only if based on a reasonable judgment of a situation where the police officer sees some strange conduct and some crime is being committed, or else he has enough reason to suspect that a person will commit or has commited a crime, or else it has been acknowledged that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. In these cases, a police officer may stop a person for questioning."

So, there you have it. No World Constitution needed. The problem is, police officers bend this law a lot when they encounter situations where they question only the foreigners.

Also, just for edification and education, there is another clause that states police officers cannot force you to go to the police station or koban against your will unless they are arresting you.

The law, the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2, is not clear, sometimes abuse of the police or others just a crime after all, so there are so many case laws.

And you don't bend the law above, but you intentionally (probably) ignore the immigration act for non-Japanese to show their ID at the official request.

*snip
It is interesting even the moral county where Taiko666 is from had/has some controversy about the stop and question.

Stop and search
The infamous 'sus' law allowing police to stop, search, or arrest a 'suspected person', had been so widely abused that there were riots in Brixton, Handsworth, Toxteth, Southall & Moss Side in the early '80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_search

Of course, you are the person who create a new case law when you think the stop & question is illegal. The door has always opened to anybody, Japanese or non-Japanese.

[Pachipro]

But, if that were to happen, then it would not be Japan anymore would it? It would be just like any other mundane western country and why would anyone want to live there then? With all it's flaws, and the few "hassles" foreigners have to face, Japan is unique (as well as many other Asian countries) and I hope it stays that way.
This makes perfect logical sense... until 2 seconds later when you realize how racist this actually is. Then you get a shiver realizing how easily mindsets are justified like this, how how this is the very logic that so much is justified in Japan. Let alone the situation of foreigners dealing with police stops "just because" they are foreign.

Pachipro I love your posts, but I hope you carefully reread what you just posted here. Then go read a few articles on racism in Japan and other ethnicities, read on how slavery and other issues were justified, and I truly hope you question this idea of "keeping Japan pure" in whatever exact sense you might have in your mind.
I have re-read it carefully at your request, but I fail to see how it is racist Emoni. And I still believe, however flawed it may be in yours and others' thinking, that Japan should remain Japan. Are you implying that all countries of the world, including Japan, should be equal with no boarders and any foreigner can be free to live anywhere anytime without fear of the local police or being asked for their ID? If so, then you must be one of those in favor of a One World Government or New World Order where all are equal and anyone can live anywhere. If so, you may get your wish in your lifetime, but I feel you may regret it. Me? I will probably not be around when it all comes down, but I digress.

I don't know what else to say or how better to explain my position. I completely understand where you, Debito, Glenski, etc are coming from, I just disagree with your positions as foreigners living in a foreign land and expecting to be treated as equals when it will probably never happen. Ever. As long as there are differing races and customs and such there will always be racism/prejudice IMO.

Even among people of the same race, there will always be prejudices based on area, income, education, family, etc. IE Hillibillys, hicks, city folk and country folk. Northerners, southerners, Easterners, mid western, West Coasters, etc., etc.

The same holds true in Japan. Osaka vs Tokyo; country folk vs city folk, hicks vs others, farmers vs factory workers, rich vs poor. It is just the way the world has been and will probably always be. Prejudice lives and always has for as long as there have been people on the earth. I cannot see it going away anytime soon. To me it is a basic fact of life no matter where one lives. It may not be right in our thinking, but try as we may, it will never be abolished as long as there are people on this planet. I have just learned to accept it as a fact of life. No matter where I have lived, in the US or Japan, I have experienced it and it is today as strong as it ever was.

As far as my comment goes, do you want to see Japanese culture completely disappear and be relagated to the literature classified as mythology or a dead race/culture/language? You surely cannot be implying that, but your answer seems to pointing in that direction as I fail to see how it is racist in any way whatsoever for my wanting Japan to remain Japan and be it's own unique culture.

Even though foreigners may be "easy targets" for the police to make them feel like they are "doing something", it is an acceptable fact of life for me in Japan. If I did not like it, I would not live there and besides, I never had a bad experience when living there save for the two time I broke their law. But as I said many times, I was treated fairly, was not abused or "tricked" or anything like that. I was treated as any Japanese would have and may even gotten off lighter because I was a foreigner. I will never know.

Anyway, even though we may agree to disagree on certain points, I thank you for making me think and for stimulating this debate. Your input is valuable as well as Glenskis' and still proves that, for now, we are all individuals with differing opinions. That's what makes life so interesting. Who knows? I may just change my tune if I ever "come to my senses".

[Glenski]

The law, the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2, is not clear, sometimes abuse of the police or others just a crime after all, so there are so many case laws.This is the chief reason foreigners complain. Police try to bend their own law. Nasty thing, having authority, isn't it?


I don't know what else to say or how better to explain my position. I completely understand where you, Debito, Glenski, etc are coming from, I just disagree with your positions as foreigners living in a foreign land and expecting to be treated as equals when it will probably never happen.Stop. I never said I expected to be treated as an equal, if you mean "equal" is the same as a Japanese citizen. I'm not that naive. HOWEVER, I DO expect Japan to adhere to its own constitution and the international treaty on human rights that it signed, and not just give us foreigners lip service.

The same holds true in Japan. Osaka vs Tokyo; country folk vs city folk, hicks vs others, farmers vs factory workers, rich vs poor. It is just the way the world has been and will probably always be. Prejudice lives and always has for as long as there have been people on the earth. And, that's why there are laws against it, so one can fight back. HOWEVER, when the law itself (i.e., police and courts) don't follow such laws, the community is in trouble.

I cannot see it going away anytime soon. To me it is a basic fact of life no matter where one lives.Of course, it won't go away quickly or soon, but that doesn't make it right or make it something to be ignored or pooh-poohed. Come live here and say what you have to say.

As far as my comment goes, do you want to see Japanese culture completely disappear and be relagated to the literature classified as mythology or a dead race/culture/language? I'M sorry, but this is a ludicrous question. Why would you even pose it? Nobody here is saying that. Perhaps some Japanese bureaucrats feel that J culture will die out if they have an influx of too many foreigners, but you know something? Culture changes and evolves, and Japan's culture WILL die if something isn't done to repopulate the country.

Even though foreigners may be "easy targets" for the police to make them feel like they are "doing something", it is an acceptable fact of life for me in Japan. If I did not like it, I would not live there and besides, I never had a bad experience when living thereLucky you. How about trying to see and feel what the UNlucky ones do?

[Pachipro]

Pachipro,
Your profile says you have not lived here for the past 20 years. Things have changed somewhat since 1988.
C'mon, Glenski. You must know by now that I am not totally ignorant of Japan or out of touch, that I have a home there, and have returned on a yearly basis (albeit for a few weeks) and would be living there at this moment if it were not for something I have to do for my late brother. I am as cognizant of Japan today as I was when I lived there full-time, so please do not put that on me. Look at me as a "Japanese" who is living overseas, but not at all out of touch with the politics, culture, news, country, language (well maybe I have lost a little of the language), etc.

As for "The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! " Just looking foreign is not reason enough according to the law, but police abuse that law.

It may not be reason enough according to the law as you state, but it does happen as it does here in the US. It happens and always will.

As far as the governor of Tokyo is concerned or a few police here and there, and stories to the magazines, of course there always will be isolated incidents

Oh, come on! What nonsense!
1) Those are NOT isolated incidents.
2) To say they happen and shrug them off as isolated is putting on blinders and ignoring the problem.
It's not putting on blinders, it is just accepting the fact, as much as I also disagree with it, that it does happen, just as it happens on a daily basis here in the US and many other countries. Can you name me any other cases where it has happened? Can you point me to a case where a foreigner was arrested for doing nothing wrong after showing his/her papers or complying with the law?

In your thinking, it would be perfectable acceptable and preferable for the police to say, "Oh OK. Please go on your way." Then I commit a terrorist act. Can''t you see the logic here for them stopping all non-Japanese/Korean/Chinese looking persons whether they be citizens or not?
Don't put words in my mouth. You obviously have not read a single word that I wrote about the reasons police stop foreigners and how wrong this is. I can't debate with people who do that.
Besides, no foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act in Japan, or haven't you heard? Don't throw out that lame excuse like a Japanese politician or cop or immigration official.
I have read everything you have written Glenski. I am not putting words in your mouth, I am only interpreting, however much you may think me wrong, what you have said and written and that is: Anyone should be able to tell the police they have no right to stop and question you, a foreign looking person, for you to not show them your papers and happily go on your way. To you, I gather from your writings, that would be a perfect world in Japan for a foreigner. Is that why you cannot debate people who think as I do?

Maybe the reason why there have been no terrorist acts by foreigners in Japan is BECAUSE the police are so vigilant in their questioning of foreigners and preventing them from entering or questioning them in airports, etc. No?

Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner?
Why don't you?
No, I honestly DO NOT believe my human rights are being abused/violated by being stopped as a foreigner in a foreign country and being asked for my papers to show my legal status. Not in the least. I expect it and believe it should be done as, if I were not stopped, I would feel that the police are not doing their job in keeping their country safe, not like here in the US.

Profiling exists for a reason and those reasons, more often than not, prove to be working and justified, not only in Japan, but here in the US as well, as most profiling stops on the interstates here in the US often turn up fugitives and drugs as I see on a nightly basis on the interstate.

I wonder how you would feel and think, when you do, if ever, return to the US and witness things far more worse than in Japan that is going on here in the US as far as stops of people are concerned. I wonder if you would be as vocal here as you are in Japan. I believe you would also see, as I do, that Japan is far more tame than what is currently going on in the country of your birth. In fact I think you would be more shocked.

Note: Just to show I am not a complete "A-hole", as much as we may disagree on this point Glenski (and no I AM NOT sucking up! Just stating a fact), I value your input and your info on questions concerning visas, rights, working etc. You offer much valuable info and I thank you for the much time you put into it as I have saved many of the links.

[Glenski]

C'mon, Glenski. You must know by now that I am not totally ignorant of Japan or out of touch, that I have a home there, and have returned on a yearly basisI'm sorry, Pachipro, but I am not one who keeps track of people's lives, so all I could remember about you was what you wrote in your profile.

Look at me as a "Japanese" who is living overseas, but not at all out of touch with the politics, culture, news, country, language Sorry, but if all you do is come here for a few weeks a year, you are more out of touch with the culture and issues than you might want to admit. No offense, but I'm looking at things as reasonably as I can. Will try to keep in mind what you wrote, though.

I wrote: As for "The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! " Just looking foreign is not reason enough according to the law, but police abuse that law.
Pachipro replied:
It may not be reason enough according to the law as you state, but it does happen as it does here in the US. It happens and always will.C'mon. We are not talking about the U.S. here. You of all people should realize the difference. And, what's more, your last statement above smacks me in the face. What is that supposed to mean? Roll over and play dead? Grovel? Shut up and take it? You know my answer (and that of many others here, rightfully so).


Re: Tokyo governor, police crime magazines, etc.
It's not putting on blinders, it is just accepting the fact, as much as I also disagree with it, that it does happen, just as it happens on a daily basis here in the US and many other countries. Can you name me any other cases where it has happened?Read www.debito.org obviously.

what you have said and written and that is: Anyone should be able to tell the police they have no right to stop and question you, a foreign looking person, for you to not show them your papers and happily go on your way.The law says "guarantees" us this right, so why can't we ask for the police to abide by the law? I presume your hypothetical case above is when the foreigner is doing nothing overtly wrong, of course.

To you, I gather from your writings, that would be a perfect world in Japan for a foreigner. Is that why you cannot debate people who think as I do?I'm debating as well as I can, but you seem to be stubborn about some facts and issues, and ignoring others. Everyone wants a perfect world for themselves, and I'm not so much a dreamer to think it can happen, but why should foreigners have their rights stomped on if it can be avoided? You call it human nature or some such thing. Ok, but human nature includes negative nature, like discrimination, which as I wrote earlier, is why we make laws to protect our rights in favor of a more perfect, ideal world. Is there any reason we should not strive for that?

Maybe the reason why there have been no terrorist acts by foreigners in Japan is BECAUSE the police are so vigilant in their questioning of foreigners and preventing them from entering or questioning them in airports, etc. No?Speculation. Perhaps the foreign terrorists just don't care about Japan. More speculation, of course, but you can't just say what you did and make it so. Vigilance is one thing, but other factors are involved, too. Laws against harboring nuclear weapons. Laws against swords, guns, and knives. Those apply to Japanese as well as foreigners, of course.

No, I honestly DO NOT believe my human rights are being abused/violated by being stopped as a foreigner in a foreign country and being asked for my papers to show my legal status. Not in the least. I expect it and believe it should be done as, if I were not stopped, I would feel that the police are not doing their job in keeping their country safe, not like here in the US.That is the clearest statement you have made, and clearly we must agree to disagree on this one. I cannot fathom why you think that way, but as I tell my students, it is your opinion, and if I cannot sway you, then I cannot tell you the opinion is wrong. It is just your opinion, and I have the opposite one.

Profiling exists for a reason and those reasons, more often than not, prove to be working and justified, not only in Japan, but here in the US as well, as most profiling stops on the interstates here in the US often turn up fugitives and drugs as I see on a nightly basis on the interstate.So, you have data to support that word "most"? I don't think so.

I wonder how you would feel and think, when you do, if ever, return to the US and witness things far more worse than in Japan that is going on here in the US as far as stops of people are concerned. I wonder if you would be as vocal here as you are in Japan. I believe you would also see, as I do, that Japan is far more tame than what is currently going on in the country of your birth. In fact I think you would be more shocked.As you know very well, this topic is not about the U.S. situation.

Note: Just to show I am not a complete "A-hole", as much as we may disagree on this point Glenski (and no I AM NOT sucking up! Just stating a fact), I value your input and your info on questions concerning visas, rights, working etc. You offer much valuable info and I thank you for the much time you put into it as I have saved many of the links.Point taken and I thank you, not only for that, but for keeping this a civil disagreement. Perhaps we should end it here.

[Emoni]

I am curious, are there any organizations that help protect the rights of foreigners (or even Japanese citizens?) in Japan. I'm aware of the Debito site, but are there any support agencies that would help in a situation or fight for legal rights or give assistance that foreigners should be aware of?

[orochi]

I am curious, are there any organizations that help protect the rights of foreigners (or even Japanese citizens?) in Japan.

I'm curious about this as well.

[Glenski]

Legal rights related to jobs: Labour Standards Office, your union (or at least this one for foreign workers -- http://nambufwc.org/ )

A plethora of sites depending on the problem: http://www.generalunion.org/links

Human rights:
http://www.crnjapan.com/otherorgs/en/human_rights.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Japan (WARNING! It's wikipedia.)

[anomouse]

As a foreigner, pretty much all rights are protected under the law, except for the rights that specifically address citizens. No country places foreigners' rights above those of citizens. Japan is no exception. Any foreigner who demands more than what locals can ask for is, in fact, asking for priviledges, which is just arrogant, imo.

[orochi]

Any foreigner who demands more than what locals can ask for is, in fact, asking for priviledges, which is just arrogant, imo.

But none of us are asking for that in this thread, nor has the topic come up until now. Why did you bring it up?

[anomouse]

But none of us are asking for that in this thread, nor has the topic come up until now. Why did you bring it up?
Your rights are protected, what else do you want?

[FrustratedDave]

I am curious, are there any organizations that help protect the rights of foreigners (or even Japanese citizens?) in Japan. I'm aware of the Debito site, but are there any support agencies that would help in a situation or fight for legal rights or give assistance that foreigners should be aware of?
The bar association of Japan has a free service which is limited to 30min for a consult, after that it is it will cost you. But this is the same for foriengers and Japanese alike. This is you best option.

[orochi]

Your rights are protected, what else do you want?

Did you read the thread?

[anomouse]

Did you read the thread?
Of course.
Your human rights are protected. What else do you want?
Civil rights? Be a citizen!

[Emoni]

Your rights are protected, what else do you want?

As Orochi insinuated, read the thread before blanket and unrelated statements like this. I'm starting to think you just want to spark a flame war here with your short and UNSUPPORTED comments.

As much as I might disagree with a few of the posters here, they are making an effort to support and explain themselves. That is critical on an issue such as law, so please Anomouse, read the thread, then post while backing up your statement with information or references... or at LEAST an explanation.

Heck... at least read the SECOND post by Mike Cash about the rights you have.

[anomouse]

Emoni, you've been reported. I'm just expressing my opinion. You have no right to moderate this thread, telling people what to do.

[orochi]

Of course.
Your human rights are protected. What else do you want?
Civil rights? Be a citizen!

But this thread is full of examples of how our rights are not actually protected even though the law calls for it. That is the problem.

[anomouse]

I've read the thread, but overall, got the impression that some people were simply confusing some basic concepts: privileges and rights; civil rights and human rights. So some people are misled to believe they have RIGHTS even though they don't deserve those rights. These concepts need to be discussed separately.

[Dutch Baka]

Emoni, you've been reported.


Don't think it was such a big thing to to report, and neither it was to tell Emoni; "You have been reported.... "　　
Keep it nice in here, I'm watching although I'm not a super nanny :okashii:

[orochi]

I've read the thread, but overall, got the impression that some people were simply confusing some basic concepts: privileges and rights; civil rights and human rights. They need to be discussed separately.

Civil rights vs. human rights is not the issue.

[FrustratedDave]

Rubbish! How many of your fellow countrymen and women have voted back home for idiots, and that was in their own language!?
Missed this one.

Now Glenski, do you really think that because some halfwitts in their own country voting completely uninformed is grounds to let a foriegner after registering at city the right to vote, Just b/c the outcome may be the same? That really was a stupid statement if you ask me (no intention of offending)



But this thread is full of examples of how our rights are not actually protected even though the law calls for it. That is the problem.
I only see issolated cases so far.

And the case about Mr Idubor and his refusal of bail by the courts, this also happens to Japanese, like I have said earlier I am failing to see foriegners rights abused by the law. 9 times out of ten the police have every right to conduct them selves the way they do.

[orochi]

I only see issolated cases so far.

Did I say it was a wide-spread epidemic plaguing millions of people? No.
So what are you countering?

And your perception (and subjective judgment) of these incidents as isolated does not change the fact that there are occurrences. If we were discussing how huge the problems were, then it would be something to bring up (though some objective facts or statistics would be more welcome as a counter argument).

But that is not what we are talking about. So it is largely irrelevant statement that seems to have been made only to spite those with an opinion different from yours.

[Glenski]

Originally Posted by Glenski View Post

Rubbish! How many of your fellow countrymen and women have voted back home for idiots, and that was in their own language!?
Missed this one.
Now Glenski, do you really think that because some halfwitts in their own country voting completely uninformed is grounds to let a foriegner after registering at city the right to vote, Just b/c the outcome may be the same?

Dave,
You have it the other way around. Foreign people are not given the right to vote because locals are stupid. (That's what you wrote, but perhaps you meant something else...?)

I can't see how you missed my point. You kept harping on the fact that Japanese fluency was so important, that it was required in your mind before people could make an informed decision when voting. I pointed out that even if a person was fluent in their a language (home language in this case, for Americans), they can STILL be uninformed dolts. Bear in mind that many foreigners would actually pay closer attention to the issues by sheer virtue of being foreign, so in some cases they might even be MORE informed than a local. Not always, of course, but the point is there that language fluency is not a guarantee of intelligent voting.


And the case about Mr Idubor and his refusal of bail by the courts, this also happens to Japanese, like I have said earlier I am failing to see foriegners rights abused by the law. I don't see how you fail to do that. Incredulous.

People,

When we reach the point that one party says, "I don't see it. I don't believe it." over and over again, it's time to call it quits. We might just as well be comparing evolution and creationism here.

[Emoni]

Emoni, you've been reported. I'm just expressing my opinion. You have no right to moderate this thread, telling people what to do.

Telling you that stating your opinion doesn't mean anything when you have no supporting evidence, explanations, and seem to have not read the thread or understand the topic is now a reportable offense in your eyes? That's pretty sad. I guess you probably reported Orochi since he said pretty much the same thing. Anyway, enough that little drama.

Still, I recommend focusing on Orochi's statements, he's defining things clearer than I can in regards to the issues at hand that foreigners face.

Again, the reason I started this thread was to give some sort of insight into paths that foreigners might take when they run into walls and problems with Japanese law enforcement or the legal system. It has already been made clear that the Japanese police twist the law or don't follow it at times (despite what some may believe should or shouldn't be applied to foreigners), and it is a FACT that the Japanese legal system has some dangerous holes that can lead to the system tearing you apart with nothing you can do about it. In a situation like that, you MUST have some sort of knowledge of what to do. The attitude of "Hey, they are foreigners and it is their choice to come as a guest. Screw their rights legal or otherwise." is by no means helpful here especially if you someday end up in a situation where Mike Cash's post about the process becomes something you really wish you would have remembered. Don't get lost in the details too much here guys.

I'm starting to think some people have an entire image in their mind of some "gaijin" in Japan who deserves to have what is coming to him hit him as hard as possible, whether or not he is innocent or not. I'm not supporting jerks who cause trouble in Japan by this thread people, I wanted to talk about this for my sake, and the sake of others who are by no means criminals but are very aware that legal system in Japan is by no means perfect, just like any legal system (some less so).

Oh, and just so you know, I don't plan on any major bank heists in Japan. No motive other than knowledge here people.

One subject we really haven't gone over is lawyers in relation to this. Mike Cash stated that one isn't available till you've been charged with a crime. Now, I don't even have to start quoting the legal classes I took back in Japan to point out that lawyers in general are not in great supply in Japan. However, the class dealt with civil law, not criminal. I'm not sure if the same goes for criminal lawyers and prosecutors in Japan.

Let's say you are charged with something. With the 98%+ conviction rate, and a hell of a lot on the line, what would you do from this point? What if you can't afford a lawyer which would cost normally thousands due to rarity? What is commonly the next step and how would you proceed? What can you expect? How DO you defend yourself legally?

[pipokun]

...
It has already been made clear that the Japanese police twist the law or don't follow it at times (despite what some may believe should or shouldn't be applied to foreigners), and it is a FACT that the Japanese legal system has some dangerous holes that can lead to the system tearing you apart with nothing you can do about it.
...


Just bring up your two year memory in Tokyo.
How many times the police you met twisted the law for you?
How many times they stopped you?
And how many time you were in need of calling a lawyer?

Just follow the same lifestyle of yours as then.

And about the illegal law twisting, your lawyer surely uses the great evidence as the illegal abuse of the law even after you commit other crimes.

Not all rights are granted automatically to non-Japanese, but a right, to be politically loud, is granted to anybody here. The case law was created at the turbulent Vietnam war era long before Debito got naturalized, but at least in this forum, he (debito) may be a good example that you can get naturalized.

[GaijinPunch]

Kind of late to the party here, but has anyone really gotten in trouble for the whole not carrying the gaijin card thing? The only time I've ever been asked for one when I bumped into police was when I was actually visiting Tokyo (living abroad) and was walking down a dodgy alley at about 1AM... the place the Iranians (used to?) sell drugs. I told him I didn't carry it b/c I'd be screwed if I lost it, and that my wife pretty much didn't let me take it. It was in the hotel room a block or two away. They walked me over there and had her bring it down. That was it.

I've never heard of any serious repercussions from this.

[Emoni]

Just bring up your two year memory in Tokyo.
How many times the police you met twisted the law for you?
How many times they stopped you?
And how many time you were in need of calling a lawyer?


I'm not asking about the probability or assuming that every day is the same. Things happen, and legal preparedness is a good thing, because in each of the instances, especially the one about calling a lawyer, I'm quite clueless about and I'm sure almost everyone here is as well and what to do in that situation as well as what to expect.

Gaijin Punch, I believe it was Pachipro that had some trouble with the card one time, but that was quite some time ago.

[FrustratedDave]

Dave,
You have it the other way around. Foreign people are not given the right to vote because locals are stupid. (That's what you wrote, but perhaps you meant something else...?)
I can't see how you missed my point. You kept harping on the fact that Japanese fluency was so important, that it was required in your mind before people could make an informed decision when voting. I pointed out that even if a person was fluent in their a language (home language in this case, for Americans), they can STILL be uninformed dolts.

I don't see how you fail to do that. Incredulous.


I wrote, just b/c locals can make bad decisions , is not basis enough to allow foriegners to vote b/c they could do the same job or better. Your argument is the same as saying I should be able to play in my friends sandpit b/c I can build sand castles just as good or bad as him. But the fact remains it is his sand pit and if he wants to allow me to play in it then and only then can I. Maybe over simplified, but that what it boils down to



Bear in mind that many foreigners would actually pay closer attention to the issues by sheer virtue of being foreign, so in some cases they might even be MORE informed than a local. Not always, of course, but the point is there that language fluency is not a guarantee of intelligent voting. No, language fluency is not garrenteed for intellegent voting , but it is a prerequisite in making of intelligent voting and that is all that matters. A native can choose to make an informed vote if he or she wants to ,but if you don't know the language or culture there is almost zero chance of making a decision that will affect the good of the country bar a lucky guess. So no matter how closely a forienger pays attention to the issues , his or her perception of what is right for this country can be seriously warped in some case due to the content of media that he or she is exposed to. And the same could be said about Japanese, but their is more chance of Japanese getting non biased reports than a forienger who can only understand English and half of what is being said in Japanese. Like I said before "it is their sand pit".

I stopped reading the Japan Times a long time ago and moved to Japanese papers, as I was not getting the full scope of what is happening in this society from that paper or other English ones. My veiws have changed considerably since then.

[GaijinPunch]

No, language fluency is not garrenteed for intellegent voting , but it is a prerequisite in making of intelligent voting and that is all that matters.
Hmm... surprised nobody has pointed out the complete asinine nature of this statement. I can buy the riding on ones high horse once fluency is achieved, but saying that it's necessary to make an informed decision is pretty close minded. There is tons of media coverage in many languages. In all honesty, I will be voting for the next president of the US w/o hearing too much of what he has to say directly. It's mainly due out of time restrictions that I'm limited to reading about it online and in newspapers.

I have a good idea of what a lot of Japanese politicians stand for and their policies (definitely enough to know what party I would vote for) and I don't listen to ANYTHING they say directly, despite the fact I have the ability to.

Something tells me the majority of the free world doesn't agree with you. How many million hispanics that can't string a sentence together will be voting this year in the US? How many poorly educated poor people? How many more tens of millions of educated people that just flat out suck at English? These people exist... in droves, I'm afraid. Why do they get to vote even though they clearly can't understand all the issues?

Our current President pillaged a country for financial gain. Most people smelled the pile of turds from day one of the invasion but what about those that didn't? Why did they get to vote, as clearly, they couldn't draw an informed opinion on the situation? Hopefully the extremes illustrate the holes in your statement.

stopped reading the Japan Times a long time ago and moved to Japanese papers,
Obviously a "sum up" or any type of media coverage of issues is not going to carry the full scope of all issues. This is how the world is today though, and there's no escaping it. Saying that the Japanese papers are any better than the English ones though, is like saying Coke is better than Pepsi. Fact is, they're both unhealthy.

[Emoni]

Voting? What does voting have to do with legal rights and being stopped by the police? I don't think anyone ever said anything about foreigners needing voting rights... Am I missing something?

[GaijinPunch]

Voting? What does voting have to do with legal rights and being stopped by the police? I don't think anyone ever said anything about foreigners needing voting rights... Am I missing something?

Please use the quote feature. ;)

[Glenski]

No, language fluency is not garrenteed for intellegent voting , but it is a prerequisite in making of intelligent voting and that is all that matters.Sorry, Dave, but language fluency (whatever a country may define of its voters) is not prerequisite whatsoever for any measure of intelligent voting. It is only a prerequisitie for voting. Period. How intelligent or fugged up a decision maker you are, the government can't regulate.

A native can choose to make an informed vote if he or she wants to ,but if you don't know the language or culture there is almost zero chance of making a decision that will affect the good of the countryI guess it depends on how well/badly one "knows the language" and stays on top of the issues, as I implied earlier.

Or, do you believe the millions of U.S. voters who put bad Presidents in office were intelligent yet simply not fluent in English?

but their is more chance of Japanese getting non biased reports than a forienger who can only understand English and half of what is being said in Japanese.Let's agree to disagree on this one, ok? We're not going to go anywhere if you believe Japanese media is unbiased.

Emoni,
No, you're not missing anything. Dave is going off on a tangent, and I thought you didn't care. He has gone from legal rights when facing the police, to having high Japanese fluency to be able to deal with them, to using that same fluency to making informed voting decisions in Japan.

Hey, it's not my thread!

[Emoni]

GaijinPunch: Quoting feature? Why? I don't see a reason in that case.

Glenski: Anyway, while I have followed most of Frustrated Dave's "erratic changes in flow" and see where language CAN have an effect on interaction with police and such (but not quite in the degree or method he is stating) but I'm at a loss with the voting issue being connected. I'm wondering if Dave could make some sort of connection I'm missing.

Oh, and again, does anyone know about the situation after you are accused of a crime or when you need to deal with a lawyer and the process in that regard? That is still something that I think many are unsure of (I know I am) and I would hope that someone who does know could toss in some information about.

[GaijinPunch]

GaijinPunch: Quoting feature? Why? I don't see a reason in that case.

B/c you were apparently addressing Dave, right after my post. Was pretty sure, but wanted to be 100% sure you weren't asking me.


Oh, and again, does anyone know about the situation after you are accused of a crime or when you need to deal with a lawyer and the process in that regard? That is still something that I think many are unsure of (I know I am) and I would hope that someone who does know could toss in some information about.

Not quite sure what you're referring to. You're basically accused of a crime when you're arrested, although may not (and likely will not) be indicted for some 3 odd weeks. You might get to see your attourney in there somewhere, but it will most definitely not be before a drawn out interrogation.

I have a couple of friends that are going through the court system now. One has VERY high level of Japanese and is doing most of the leg work (their attourney is average at best, they say). I'll try to post some info on it, or a link to the Japan Times as I think they're covering it. Would be nice to add to the thread.

[FrustratedDave]

Hmm... surprised nobody has pointed out the complete asinine nature of this statement. I can buy the riding on ones high horse once fluency is achieved, but saying that it's necessary to make an informed decision is pretty close minded. There is tons of media coverage in many languages. In all honesty, I will be voting for the next president of the US w/o hearing too much of what he has to say directly. It's mainly due out of time restrictions that I'm limited to reading about it online and in newspapers.
And a lot of that media is biased. And speaking the language is a prerequisite if you are foriegn and want to vote.

I have a good idea of what a lot of Japanese politicians stand for and their policies (definitely enough to know what party I would vote for) and I don't listen to ANYTHING they say directly, despite the fact I have the ability to. And next the foriegner could possibly say the same thing dispite only being here a few months. Does that make you qualified to make decisions that may affect the Japanese people?

Something tells me the majority of the free world doesn't agree with you. How many million hispanics that can't string a sentence together will be voting this year in the US? How many poorly educated poor people? How many more tens of millions of educated people that just flat out suck at English? These people exist... in droves, I'm afraid. Why do they get to vote even though they clearly can't understand all the issues? Is that so? So non citizens can vote in the US? I don't think so. You obviously have no idea what we are disscussing here so untill you read the thread properly .... If you want to vote in Japan become a citizen, or I suggest you read the thread instead of making assumptions about what people are saying. The difference is they(hispanics) are citizens. And as stated before citizen have every right to make half witted decisons if they feel like they want to.

Our current President pillaged a country for financial gain. Most people smelled the pile of turds from day one of the invasion but what about those that didn't? Why did they get to vote, as clearly, they couldn't draw an informed opinion on the situation? Hopefully the extremes illustrate the holes in your statement. No holes from where I am standing, why should foriegners be allowed to vote? Answer that?


Obviously a "sum up" or any type of media coverage of issues is not going to carry the full scope of all issues. This is how the world is today though, and there's no escaping it. Saying that the Japanese papers are any better than the English ones though, is like saying Coke is better than Pepsi. Fact is, they're both unhealthy.[/QUOTE] So you would know then? The fact that Japanese papers are better than the English ones for getting un-biased info? Somehow I doubt you read the Japnese papers then.

[FrustratedDave]

Sorry, Dave, but language fluency (whatever a country may define of its voters) is not prerequisite whatsoever for any measure of intelligent voting. It is only a prerequisitie for voting. Period. How intelligent or fugged up a decision maker you are, the government can't regulate. It is if you are advocating rights for foriengers to vote. Like I said before if you become a citizen you need not know one word of Japanese for all I care, but if you have earned the right to become one then so be it. But then this is another issue of people knowing basic Japanese before they are allowed to become citizens and if it should be a prerequisitie to becomeing a citizen.

I guess it depends on how well/badly one "knows the language" and stays on top of the issues, as I implied earlier.

Or, do you believe the millions of U.S. voters who put bad Presidents in office were intelligent yet simply not fluent in English? They are citizens so how ever bad their Engilsih or decisions were they have earned the right to that bad decision.(however much I disagree with this however.)

Let's agree to disagree on this one, ok? We're not going to go anywhere if you believe Japanese media is unbiased. It is less biased the the foriegn media in Japan.(thats my opinion)

Emoni,
No, you're not missing anything. Dave is going off on a tangent, and I thought you didn't care. He has gone from legal rights when facing the police, to having high Japanese fluency to be able to deal with them, to using that same fluency to making informed voting decisions in Japan.

Hey, it's not my thread!
I see.

[GaijinPunch]

And speaking the language is a prerequisite if you are foriegn and want to vote.


100% untrue. There are plenty of people that can't speak (and definitely not read) past a very menial level that have PR, and that allows you to vote in local elections. Besides, your swooping statement goes beyond Japan... at least it sounded so.

Is that so? So non citizens can vote in the US? I don't think so.

Citizens don't have to speak English.

No holes from where I am standing, why should foriegners be allowed to vote? Answer that?

I never said they should... only pointed out the idiocy of your statement that only someone fluent in the language of that country should be able to vote. Basically your statements are the same as those that have tried to control the voting population throughout history. You know... white men that prevented blacks and women from voting in the US? Hawaiin governments that only granted voting power to land owners. Great, noble people like that.

[Glenski]

Is it time again for me to point out to moderators how far this thread had gone off topic?

Not to mention that Dave seems to be just saying that "this is my opinion", so he feels confident he has refuted everyone. Moebius loop. Broken record. Off topic.

[Emoni]

You're basically accused of a crime when you're arrested, although may not (and likely will not) be indicted for some 3 odd weeks. You might get to see your attourney in there somewhere, but it will most definitely not be before a drawn out interrogation.
I have a couple of friends that are going through the court system now. One has VERY high level of Japanese and is doing most of the leg work (their attourney is average at best, they say). I'll try to post some info on it, or a link to the Japan Times as I think they're covering it. Would be nice to add to the thread.

I'm definitely curious to find out more about the process, and if you could find more information and the link you wanted to post, that would be perfect for this thread.

[Glenski]

From the U.S. Dept. of State:

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110a.html
Arrest procedures: the first 72 hours
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110b.html

Additional link on attorneys you are entitled to (as of 2006).
Plus the theoretical right to a speedy trial defined.
http://japan.usembassy.gov/pdfs/wwwfarrestsup.pdf
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110h.html

Under investigation: The next 20 days (again from the U.S. Dept. of State).
Plus daily life in jail:
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110c.html

Indictment and the trial. (yup, the state department):
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110d.html

daily life in the detention center
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110e.html

sentencing, appeals, deportation
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110f.html

prison life
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110g.html
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-159095.html (firsthand experience by a foreigner; see also Amnesty International for more)
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA22/004/1998/en/dom-ASA220041998en.html

more on "human rights" related to arrests and prison conditions
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/eap/709.htm

Those infamous "police duties execution laws" (beginning on page 35) from the Japan National Police Agency itself:
http://www.npa.go.jp/english/seisaku7/hourei1-4.pdf

More from the NPA:
http://www.npa.go.jp/english/index.htm



Or if you just want to go to wikipedia (citations and sources needed):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan

[FrustratedDave]

100% untrue. There are plenty of people that can't speak (and definitely not read) past a very menial level that have PR, and that allows you to vote in local elections. Besides, your swooping statement goes beyond Japan... at least it sounded so. Which is another issue of should people have to pass a test to get PR, I know some countries do do that. But that discussion is for another thread. Again re-read the thread, citizens are another topic, my statements are restricted to foriegner voting in a country that is no theirs. And America is no different. Like I said before anyone can make a dumb *** decision, but it is their right if they are a citizen. Do I agree with that, NO. But it is a free world isn't it?



Citizens don't have to speak English.


I never said they should... only pointed out the idiocy of your statement that only someone fluent in the language of that country should be able to vote. Basically your statements are the same as those that have tried to control the voting population throughout history. You know... white men that prevented blacks and women from voting in the US? Hawaiin governments that only granted voting power to land owners. Great, noble people like that.
Exactly and if you become a citizen you can vote and is your right to vote.If you had followed the thread you will see I never said that it should or is a prerequisitie to be able to vote. Now I will spell it out for you so you don't get confussed. We are talking about foriegners rights and the topic came up on foriengers should be allowed to vote, and I said that if you want to be able to vote as a forienger, it was my opinion that you should at least be fluent in the language as a benchmark for foriegners to be able to vote.From their the discussion begain that you seemed to conveniently choose not to read. My oppinion is that non-zainichi foriegners should not be allowed to vote.(I am not going to comment on the zainichi as I don't have evnough information to do so) Maybe if a their was a set of requirments like time frame that a foriegner was here, language ability ect, ect that it MAY be ok for foriegners to vote, but I am not sure on that one either.

Differing rights for citizens is a different topic all together, and don't go putting words in my mouth and try to compare my statements with people who in the past have tried to control voting.

Gaijinpunch , if you are going to take my comments out of context without reading the rest of the thread, don't comment as I don't appreciate to insinuations that you are throwing around.

[Glenski]

But that discussion is for another thread. Again re-read the thread, citizens are another topic, my statements are restricted to foriegner voting in a country that is no theirs. Dave, I respectfully ask that you reread the thread's OP.

The topic is not voting. It is about dealing with the police and related law concerns as a foreigner.

But, this is not my thread... Emoni?

[Emoni]

Dave, I respectfully ask that you reread the thread's OP.

The topic is not voting. It is about dealing with the police and related law concerns as a foreigner.

But, this is not my thread... Emoni?

I'm one of the most flexible-minded person on this forum when it comes to related topics I think, but when things are totally unrelated, they simply are unrelated and you haven't actually explained why you are talking about voting and voting rights on a legal thread or how it connects. Glenski is right on this. (Although, I'm hoping he's not standing around a corner to scream "LOCK IT!!!" again!)

Then again I'm not a mod or anything (nor want to be), but I do hope that people would please show an effort not to derail things as there is plenty of things legal related (in a huge broad array) to talk about.

[Glenski]

I'm one of the most flexible-minded person on this forum when it comes to related topics I think, but when things are totally unrelated, they simply are unrelated and you haven't actually explained why you are talking about voting and voting rights on a legal thread or how it connects. Glenski is right on this. (Although, I'm hoping he's not standing around a corner to scream "LOCK IT!!!" again!)Nope. Have not even reported this to the mods. That's YOUR responsibility. I just vote that we don't respond to off-topic posts. That's my policy on this one now.

Then again I'm not a mod or anything (nor want to be), but I do hope that people would please show an effort not to derail things as there is plenty of things legal related (in a huge broad array) to talk about.Don't hold your breath.

[Emoni]

Well, most of what I'm hoping for now is someone might have a personal story or experience with a lawyer or incident in Japan which required going past the "accused" aspect. I know Pachipro had a run in with some hash issues, but I don't know if he mentioned actually seeking a lawyer or how that went. If anyone else has any stories I think that would give an idea.

[Glenski]

Emoni,
I hope you realize that any "run-ins" will probably cover a large area of miscellaneous offenses, mostly minor. I've been curious from the very start. Just what sort of broken laws are you interested in, and why? You could probably hear various reports of traffic offenses and noisy neighbors, etc., but I doubt you'll see much on rape, murder, grand larceny, and other major crimes.

[Pachipro]

Well, most of what I'm hoping for now is someone might have a personal story or experience with a lawyer or incident in Japan which required going past the "accused" aspect. I know Pachipro had a run in with some hash issues, but I don't know if he mentioned actually seeking a lawyer or how that went. If anyone else has any stories I think that would give an idea.

I would've answered you post sooner, but JREF has a tendancy of not showing new posts if you are answering another after a set time limit, so I missed it.

In my case, Emoni, I was not informed that I was allowed to seek the advice of a lawyer after being arrested even though I was allowed to according to my wife and Japanese law! We don't remember who gave us the list of English speaking lawyers, the American Embassy or the Japanese police. When my wife was freed with no charges she sought a Japanese lawyer who spoke fluent English, but she does not remember where the list came from.

After I was indicted, he spoke for me and got me bail to the tune of 1 million yen at 10%. His fee was 300,000 yen for the entire case (remember we are going back 20 years). He advised me to plead guilty, apologize profusely, and that I would probably be given a suspended sentence and allowed to stay in country. He was right as even though I was sentenced to 7 years at hard labor, it was suspended for three years provided I did not commit another crime. I was not deported and even though I left the country that same year because I planned to, I was still allowed back into the country every year since.

To be quite honest, he did absolutely nothing for me save for the fact that he was Japanese and spoke for me when I was quite fluent in Japanese anyway, but maybe that was enough. Therefore, I suggest one get an English speaking Japanese lawyer if one is arrested. And remember, you ARE allowed a lawyer before questioning. They will not tell you, but you probably have to ask.

My light sentence could be because I was married to a Japanese woman. I do not know. What I do know is that three of my friends (two US and one Australian) who were also arrested in the same sting that had Japanese wives were allowed to stay in country.

However, one person, from England, who I met on this forum last year because of my thread, who was busted for marajuana in Japan as an English teacher in 2005, not married to a Japanese woman and was not deported but left Japan on his own a year later, was not allowed back into Japan when he tried to go back a few months ago. He was informed at the airport that he couldn't come back to Japan for 50 years and was sent back home! Unbelievable! He is now living in Hong Kong.

I do not know what the rules are, but it seems if you have a Japanese wife/spouse, you are not penalized as a single person is who has no ties to Japan.

I wonder if anyone else has any information on anything similar.

Why is it that those with Japanese spouses are given lieniency and not deported, but those who are single are severely punished and not allowed back into Japan even though they were not deported?

I suspect I know what the answer is, but it would be interesting to hear others' views and/or experiences.

[Emoni]

Wow, thank you very much Pachipro for the story. It's possible to look up the details, but personal stories like this and experience adds to the details a lot.

[GaijinPunch]

I was not deported and even though I left the country that same year because I planned to, I was still allowed back into the country every year since.

A similar thing happened to a friend. Wasn't deported, but left on his own accord. Next time he tried to come back in he was denied. Apparently he has to get the visa before making the trip.

[Pachipro]

A similar thing happened to a friend. Wasn't deported, but left on his own accord. Next time he tried to come back in he was denied. Apparently he has to get the visa before making the trip.
If he has a Japanese wife he should have no problem I think. However, if he was single, he may just find out that he will not be allowed back in for some time as the naquaintance I mentioned above found out. Please let us know how he fares if he is a single person. It will be good info.

I also just read that Wakanoho, a Russian Sumo wrestler, was arrested for posession of marajuana when he lost his wallet and a joint was discovered in in it by the police when it was politely turned in.

I wonder what punishment he will receive? Will he be deported? Will he be allowed to stay? They say he was a minor (19) at the time of the loss, so I wonder if he will be given lieniency. Does anyone think he will be kicked out of sumo?

I wonder what his legal rights were? Was he allowed access to a lawyer before questioning? Was he held for days with no one knowing where he was? Was he allowed a phone call? I know I wasn't and I wonder if he was given preferential treatment? If anyone knows, please post it here. Thanks.

[Emoni]

I also just read that Wakanoho, a Russian Sumo wrestler, was arrested for posession of marajuana when he lost his wallet and a joint was discovered in in it by the police when it was politely turned in.
I wonder what punishment he will receive? Will he be deported?

Hmmm... I would hope absolutely nothing happens. With any simple sort of legal reasoning, if your positions are lost and in the hands of someone else for a certain amount of time, then turned in (especially when you are a well known celebrity who may not be liked by all), anything in it should not be for a second considered submittable as evidence.

Under that logic, you could steal anyone's wallet, drop a bit of hash in, and bam they are out of the country. Not for a second should that hold up in court or even be arrest worthy.

[Glenski]

Marijuana in Japan.... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Foreigner with marijuana in Japan. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

[Taiko666]

Marijuana in Japan.... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Foreigner with marijuana in Japan. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

Draconian marijuana laws in Japan ... STUPID, STUPID, STUPID

[Pachipro]

Marijuana in Japan.... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Foreigner with marijuana in Japan. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.


Draconian marijuana laws in Japan ... STUPID, STUPID, STUPID

Agreed on both counts, but a single foreigner getting caught in Japan with Draconian marajuana laws and knowing it....STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. Say bye-bye to Japan forever.

[Emoni]

I agree with Pachipro as well. I'm curious though, with such strict laws how does it even find its way in and who controls it. I guess if the Yakuza are using it to fund who knows what, you can understand a SMALL degree why it might be so controlled. Considering the number of absolutely plastered people with no idea how to drink at all in Japan I can't imagine marijuana doing too much damage...

[Pachipro]

Emoni, most of it (in my experience) was home-grown from up north in Hokkaido or in speed and meth labs locally. The stuff from Thailand and Asia (Thai sticks/ 'Buddha Weed'/Hashish) was flown in mostly by foreigners under most unusual circumstances and picked up at the airport. The Yakuza had almost nothing to do with weed. They mostly controled speed and heroin. At least back in the day that's how it was which is why I am speaking in the past tense. Things may have changed these many years. However, I do know for a fact that the weed is still mostly grown up north nad readily available if you know where to look. BTW marajuana does far less damage than alcohol, but alcohol is legal and marajuana illegal. Go figure.

[Emoni]

Interesting, I guess it would make sense that it would be one of those that would be easily grown by just about anyone in the outskirts. While I'm not one to promote drug use, I have yet to see a legitimate reason to oppose marijuana either. Especially since it would probably keep Japanese people from wandering the streets or driving them drunk.

I'm all for questioning the laws on certain things and the punishment balancing with the supposed crime. Marijuana is one of those that in many countries doesn't quite balance out at all.

Of course, at the same time messing with Marijuana in Japan is just begging for trouble obviously. Honestly, it sounds like most of the situations were pretty light compared to what could have been done to those caught in Japan.

[pipokun]

Not all foreigners here are from the marijuana friendly countries. And some of you may think you will find your next step to other countries.

Many countries request you to submit police records from any countries you stayed/lived in. So I don't think it is a good idea to narrow down your American/European dream in the future, though I don't know how friendly those countries are for your past marijuana-related crime records in other countries.

Be more practical for yourself.

*snip
If I remember correctly, some threads related to the glass have already been somewhere here. And this thread is not about your illegal rights, I presume.