SEX!!! [Archive] - Japan Forum

Emoni

Aug 26, 2008, 07:51

(Note: This is a pretty risky topic, but I also consider it a very important and major on related to Japanese culture. It has come up on the board before in various ways, but I wanted to address the issue more directly and in a mature manner. (And I do stress the word mature here people). I understand that this is probably a very borderline topic, and while I'm going to do my best to keep it from being X rated or anything I'll leave the final judgment to the moderators.)

Sex, it's the inevitable issue that will pop up in Japan no matter where you go and for whatever reason. I'm not talking views of the act itself in Japan, but also the way it is portrayed in society and Japanese culture. You're going to see it referenced if you want to or not in Japan. From news paper ads, manga, movies, advertisements, soap lands, and who knows what else you might see walking down the street in Tokyo.

Japan tends to be passively direct about the subject. It will pop up all over on the outside in certain areas, but not really discussed unless behind doors. I've seen people shudder at any sign of it, I've seen people giggle. I've seen a 20 something housewife walk down the street with her bicycle caring a large box with a home-version of a stripping pole right through my neighborhood. If there is one thing I've learned, no matter what subject, everyone's view and behavior about it is going to be different. Sex is no different, and to generalize about Japan as a whole TOO much can leave a very warped and misinformed version.

Recently, I saw this section of a BBC documentary on sex in Japan. (May contain some mild nudity)

BBC Sex in Japan
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Clearly there is a great deal of shock value in a documentary like this. The portrayal of Japan's over all opinion by the BBC is generalized, and in my opinion somewhat dangerous. Yes, things like this exist, even more crazy stuff exists than is in this documentary. However, one thing that does not show up in the documentary is an attempt to put this in to context or go into details. It is a short 8 minute "OMG!" lesson.

Personally, I'm for direct discussion of the topic. I see a great deal of good in the more direct presentation that exists in Japan to an extent, yet still there remains a great deal of ignorance on the subject. Superstition, misinformation, lack of sex education, casual sex abound without consideration to relationships, it exists in any culture, but without going into too much detail, from those I have spoken with on the subject I am consistently concerned about the LACK of knowledge on the subject of sex despite its prevalence in Japan. Especially in regards to birth control, disease, and expectations in a relationship. While focusing mostly on Japan in this regard, I do want to point out that in East Asia this problem seems to exists to even a higher degree.

Moreover, you end up with the darker side of sex as well. Enslaved prostitution, underage sexual abuse, and rape. Super Free is one of the best examples and shows to what extent things can grow to. Rape fantasies and Lolita complexes abound is one image that Japanese men have been stamped. To expand further is to go into the role of women and how they are viewed in society, but how women are effected by Japan's view of sex can be almost an entire accademic major in and of itself.

Waseda's Gang Rape Circle
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(Not sure why this is not working this is the direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTxZXKsJdGU)

In many ways you will find sex for sale (despite prostitution TECHNICALLY being illegal in Japan). From host bars, magazines, arranged dating, you name it. An interesting special about the male host situation, albeit depressing, is this section of The Great Happiness Space. Sorry wasn't sure how to embed this http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/65054/detail/

With this almost overwhelming image that is exuded from Japan about "their attitude" about sex, it is easy to become entirely lost and quickly form the stereotype that all Japanese share some hidden life that no one sees, that any one could be a prostitute or have been at some time in their life. Generalizations running wild ultimately can be more dangerous than the subjects themselves, leading to prejudice and outright racism.

So, my question is this: Without getting too personal, what are your thoughts, experiences, stories, and views on the issue of sex in Japan and Japanese society? I have spoken with researchers on the subject in the past but I was very curious what members of this board think, especial those with long terms in the country.

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 08:12

Pretty broad question, Emoni, as usual. "The issue of sex". How about pinning it down a bit?

Prostitution?
Enjokosai?
Homosexuality?
Japanese & Japanese partners?
Japanese & foreign partners?
AIDS?
Contraception?
Freedom?
Loose women?
Chikan?
Love hotels?
Loss of sex after marriage?
Lovers vs. wives?
Just what "issue" of sex do you want to discuss?

And, again, I have to ask moderators why this thread cannot be placed in the Serious Discussions forum, especially with Emoni's prologue?

Emoni

Aug 26, 2008, 08:21

While it is a broad issue, I thought I stated it fairly clearly... say what you will and feel free to pin down what you feel is an important aspect or you are knowledgeable about. I'm not going to start 15 separate topics related to EVERY aspect of views of sex in Japan. If you need me to give a place to start, then please consider this in the context of defining Japan's over all view of sex and its existence in Japanese society.

So, my question is this: Without getting too personal, what are your thoughts, experiences, stories, and views on the issue of sex in Japan and Japanese society?

As for this being in Serious Discussion, I don't see how that is related at all. Maybe if I was talking about the issue of sex in general, but this is specifically relate to Japan and Japanese society. Thus, it is in the Japan section of the Japan Reference forum. Every single topic that is remotely deemed as "serious" can't be just tossed in that section.

Anyway, instead of running straight to a moderator, why not add to the subject of the thread instead? I'm sure they with make their judgment without the usual direct contact from you calling them... again

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 08:41

overall view of sex
Japanese society
You don't think those are too broad terms? Well, we already disagree.

As for not understanding how this could fit into the Serious Discussion thread, I'm at a loss, especially after an opening remark like this:
This is a pretty risky topic, but I also consider it a very important and major on related to Japanese culture. It has come up on the board before in various ways, but I wanted to address the issue more directly and in a mature manner. (And I do stress the word mature here

Carry on.

Oh, and I'm not running to a moderator, but even if I did, that's within my prerogative as a mature poster. I merely asked a question.

You want me to contribute? I'm still waiting for a more specific issue, otherwise your "topic" is all over the board. Where to start?

1. Japanese girls are easy. No, not always. What is meant by "girls" anyway? Age group.
2. Japanese people think nothing of extramarital affairs because Japan is a non-Christian nation. No, not always, besides about 10% of the country is Christian.
3. Japanese wives stop giving out sex after marriage. Maybe for some, not for all.
4. Japanese women like a whole lot of sex and in as many positions as they can get. Case by case.
5. Japanese penises are smaller than other nationalities'. Do some research to show this.
6. Japanese men prefer X type of sex instead of Y type. Again, show me the data.
7. Japanese sex is more perverted than in country X. Show me the data.
8. Japanese manga are full of sex or sexy pictures and rape scenes. Tell us something new.
9. Abortions run rampant here because of the non-Christian element or because it's a big business. Yeah. And...?
10. Viagra took less time to be approved than the pill. So?

Emoni,
Why don't you explain why this topic is so interesting to you in the first place? Perhaps that would help focus the "discussion". What got you thinking about it?

Emoni

Aug 26, 2008, 08:50

You're a very smart guy Glenski, I don't think you need me to explain which aspect to respond to. Yes, it is a big topic. The simplest way to respond would to be just take an issue I mentioned, such as the comment about the "passively direct nature" in the way sex is portrayed in Japan, or even comment on one of the videos. My post was simply a quick summary of the issue (a very large one at that) but mostly to focus on the general "Japanese view towards sex" in-line with the video link I posted to support the thread and mostly centered it around.

As for why I posted this; during my time in Japan I met and talked quite a bit with with a few people who researched the topic fairly extensively, I also overheard Japanese in the dorms talking on the subject, spoke with a few others about what they knew on the subject, and generally ran into various examples of "the Japanese view of sex" in Japan from time to time. Recently, I found the two links, the BBC documentary and the url on the Gang Rape club at Waseda.

bakaKanadajin

Aug 26, 2008, 09:12

I think most people have normal sex in Japan. They have sex when they can (Japanese people are busy) and with as many partners as their morals or personal situation will permit them to (people are shy, married, etc., but as their situation permits they are still human and will try to get laid won't they?) I don't think by and large it's a huge deal.

But beyond that, the dark side, the thing perhaps we're really trying to figure out...and the thing that the BBC documentary alludes to...

I think this stems from the severely repressive and closed discussion on mental illness, sex itself, and from tatemae, all these things. The further underground you drive sexual outlet and the more detached people are from just having normal sex, whether that's due to their busy schedules, interpersonal failure, or a lack of information, the more varied people will become in how they choose to exhibit and deal with their sex drive and repressed inhibitions.

Then there's a flipside to all this, which is that provided you have a suitable forum or perhaps within the borders of a relationship, Japanese people (Japanese females anyway, in my experience, dunno about the males) are very open about sex and treat it quite frankly. When you have a well-adjusted, down to earth person, there's a lot less inhibition and a lot more 'this is what it is, why fret over it'-ness, I've found.

ASHIKAGA

Aug 26, 2008, 09:14

As for why I posted this; during my time in Japan I met and talked quite a bit with with a few people who researched the topic fairly extensively, I also overheard Japanese in the dorms talking on the subject, spoke with a few others about what they knew on the subject, and generally ran into various examples of "the Japanese view of sex" in Japan from time to time. Recently, I found the two links, the BBC documentary and the url on the Gang Rape club at Waseda.

I do not see anything that is unique to Japan in the things you mentioned. Prostitution, Sexual Perversions, Unplanned/Unwanted pregnancies.... We could be talking about any country.

Also, since you are very much interested in this subject, I would like to hear what those people you have talked to who have "researched the subject extensively" have said and what you "overheard" in the dorms than watching a BBC clip.

By the way, what was the reason/s those people you mentioned were doing extensive researches on this?

Also, you mentioned that you saw a housewife on a bicycle carrying a home-made strip pole..... I mean.... how did you know whatever she was carrying was a strip pole? Can you draw a picture of this device?

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 09:56

You're a very smart guy Glenski, I don't think you need me to explain which aspect to respond to. Yes, it is a big topic. (snip)

As for why I posted this; during my time in Japan I met and talked quite a bit with with a few people who researched the topic fairly extensively, I also overheard Japanese in the dorms talking on the subject, spoke with a few others about what they knew on the subject, and generally ran into various examples of "the Japanese view of sex" in Japan from time to time.
So, it seems that you are the expert here, not me.

Or as Ashikaga wrote:
Also, since you are very much interested in this subject, I would like to hear what those people you have talked to who have "researched the subject extensively" have said and what you "overheard" in the dorms than watching a BBC clip.

By the way, what was the reason/s those people you mentioned were doing extensive researches on this?

Emoni

Aug 26, 2008, 10:50

It seems you are a bit "on the defense" maybe Ashikaga... by no means is this post an attack on Japan. As I pointed out I do consider the forwardness a good thing, but there is never ONLY good in regards to something and that is true anywhere around the world. Bakanagaijin pointed out the forward nature as a generality having clear positive aspects. Furthermore, I'm not saying Japan is profoundly unique or exclusive around the world in regards to sex. There are all sorts of practices and behavior around the world that is shared with Japan as well, however Japan and East Asia is my area of study and the focus of the forum so that is what I'm focusing on.

Also, you mentioned that you saw a housewife on a bicycle carrying a home-made strip pole..... I mean.... how did you know whatever she was carrying was a strip pole? Can you draw a picture of this device?

Well, it was a brand new fairly long box with a blond stripper on the front holding on to a pole with the words in English "Home Stripper's Pole" on it. So...

As for who I was talking about and what was said, it was multiple conversation with either teachers or graduate students in gender studies each with different focuses of study. Sometimes the topic was how details of the arranged dating system, how the books and advertising worked, the purpose of certain clubs or general views on birth control or sex. There was no one topic or grand statement that I'm connecting this thread too. I'm mostly basing this around the main BBC video you could say. Also, I'm no expert on this hence the thread seeking more opinions and thoughts on the subject.

I do want to point out that I think Bakanagaijin's point about mental issues and the darker side being an important distinction is a very GOOD point on this topic.

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 10:54

As for why I posted this; during my time in Japan I met and talked quite a bit with with a few people who researched the topic fairly extensively,What areas of interest?

I also overheard Japanese in the dorms talking on the subject,What part of "the subject" did you find most interesting?

spoke with a few others about what they knew on the subjectAgain, what part, and what did you find most interesting or surprising? Who exactly did you talk to? Students? Women? HS girls?

generally ran into various examples of "the Japanese view of sex" in Japan from time to time.And, just what in your opinion is that "Japanese view of sex"?

undrentide

Aug 26, 2008, 10:56

Japan tends to be passively direct about the subject. It will pop up all over on the outside in certain areas, but not really discussed unless behind doors. I've seen people shudder at any sign of it, I've seen people giggle. I've seen a 20 something housewife walk down the street with her bicycle caring a large box with a home-version of a stripping pole right through my neighborhood. If there is one thing I've learned, no matter what subject, everyone's view and behavior about it is going to be different. Sex is no different, and to generalize about Japan as a whole TOO much can leave a very warped and misinformed version.

Also, you mentioned that you saw a housewife on a bicycle carrying a home-made strip pole..... I mean.... how did you know whatever she was carrying was a strip pole? Can you draw a picture of this device?

A Japanese housewife carrying a some kind of poles...?
What comes to my mind is a housewife carrying either a washing pole or an extention pole (which are very much common in Japanese household and both come in various size and shape) and that's all.

http://images.google.co.jp/images?hl=ja&q=%E7%89%A9%E5%B9%B2%E3%81%97%E7%AB%BF&lr=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

http://images.google.co.jp/images?q=%E7%AA%81%E3%81%A3%E5%BC%B5%E3%82%8A%E6%A 3%92&btnG=%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A1%E3%
83%BC%E3%82%B8%E6%A4%9C%E7%B4%A2&um=1&hl=ja&lr=&sa=2

Besides, I've never seen/heard of "stripping poles" in Japan (though I have to admit I'm not an expert on this kind of stuff!), except those appear in American films.

Emoi, are you sure it really was "a home-version of a stripping pole" the housewife you saw was carrying? To me it sounds like one of the "a very warped and misinformed" thing...

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 11:04

Perhaps the housewife just had this in mind.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/11/hm.pole.dancing/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Emoni

Aug 26, 2008, 11:07

Emoi, are you sure it really was "a home-version of a stripping pole" the housewife you saw was carrying? To me it sounds like one of the "a very warped and misinformed" thing...

Absolutely 100% sure. I still wish I would have snapped a quick picture of it. I wasn't mistaking it for a cheap drying pole from koonan or anything. It was as I described it above. Was one of those moments you remember.

undrentide

Aug 26, 2008, 11:15

Absolutely 100% sure. I still wish I would have snapped a quick picture of it. I wasn't mistaking it for a cheap drying pole from koonan or anything. It was as I described it above. Was one of those moments you remember.

Thank you for your confirmation, I missed your post at 10:50 which was posted when I was still writing my previous comments.
(Still I don't think it is something common or something one can expect to see when walking around in Japan... What I wanted to say is that it is risky to give misconception/disinformation to stating it as an example.)

Emoni

Aug 26, 2008, 11:32

I see, I understand what you mean. I didn't mean to present it as something common. It was the only time I ever saw anything like that and it stuck in my mind as something fairly funny actually.

In fact, part of the point I wanted to stress while discussing the topic is that it is important not to take any generality and consider it as applicable to all in Japan or anywhere. That is one of the issues I had with the BBC documentary as it seemed to present everything in the documentary as absolutely EVERYWHERE and didn't really place it in context, maybe as it went on it did though.

Charles Barkley

Aug 26, 2008, 13:58

One thing I found odd was when I was showed a magazine with the ads for all of the brothels in sendai and pictures of the girls working there. And the magazine was around 300 pages...for a city of Sendai's size, that seemed huge. Also, the guy who showed me the magazine rather casually pointed to 6 or so individuals who he had visited as a customer. Perhaps it was because I never had a simialr experience in the U.S., but I had trouble imagining a similar thing happening in a city like, I dunno, San Antonio.

Another experience that sticks out in my mind was when a teacher I taught with told me that one girl in her homeroom class (the class we were teaching then) wanted to start selling her body for money and was asking tips from another girl in the class who had already been doing it. This out of the 4 girls in that class. That was a sad moment, one that I don't think was born out of living in Japan, but rather out of teaching in a low-income, low-opportunity school. Perhaps the only thing that would be different in America would be there would be no homeroom teacher aware of the situation...

TraceyD

Aug 26, 2008, 14:03

I have come to the conclusion that any country, not just Japan or the United States...have come to think that sex is different in the country they do not live in. Think about this...I make a mention to one of my friends that I like to read manga...i either get...oh so you're a porn freak or you like that you must be freaky in the sack (sorry guys ask my bf i'm not)...or isn't that a kids thing (ie pokemon etc...)

Everyone to an extent has an intrest in sex...be it what you consider "normal" or not.

As an american...yes i see the stereotypes saying that Japan is all about sex...but you also get that about the french, any middle eastern country, Brazillian, and Dutch cultures too...and I don't think its any different from any other culture...I'm sure out there somewhere ppl think ooo you're american you gotta be kinky :P

Sex is sex...we all do it (ok most of us besides nuns) so get over it :P (yes i'm very blunt and to the point)

Emoni

Aug 26, 2008, 15:29

One thing I found odd was when I was showed a magazine with the ads for all of the brothels in sendai and pictures of the girls working there. And the magazine was around 300 pages...for a city of Sendai's size, that seemed huge.

You're not the only one who was surprised by this. The situation of the girl in your class matches up with a survey I was shown by one of the research student about the shear high number of Japanese students who have had sex by a fairly young age. I wish I could remember the numbers, but it was well over 50% and I believe it even beat out the United States (which seems hard to believe, so I'm not taking the study as absolute fact of course).

I have come to the conclusion that any country, not just Japan or the United States...have come to think that sex is different in the country they do not live in. Think about this...I make a mention to one of my friends that I like to read manga...i either get...oh so you're a porn freak or you like that you must be freaky in the sack (sorry guys ask my bf i'm not)...or isn't that a kids thing (ie pokemon etc...)

What have you based this conclusion on? Have you ever been to Japan? Japanese views about sex do NOT seem the same as any country in the world at all. Moreover, why would we know your bf or have to ask him, and who ever said manga = weird sex practices?! I'm pretty lost by some of the things you are stating here.

ASHIKAGA

Aug 26, 2008, 16:10

You're not the only one who was surprised by this. The situation of the girl in your class matches up with a survey I was shown by one of the research student about the shear high number of Japanese students who have had sex by a fairly young age. I wish I could remember the numbers, but it was well over 50% and I believe it even beat out the United States (which seems hard to believe, so I'm not taking the study as absolute fact of course).

Nor am I.

Japanese views about sex do NOT seem the same as any country in the world at all.

What has given you this impression other than what you have heard from some people, a BBC documentary, some study that you don't necessarily trust and my mother on her bike carrying a stripping pole?

Moreover, why would we know your bf or have to ask him, and who ever said manga = weird sex practices?! I'm pretty lost by some of the things you are stating here.

Tracey is talking about the MISconceptions about certain things like manga/anime, which in some people's minds, are all about perverted hentai sex. I have seen/read stuff on the internet about the whole Doujinshi community and its cyber-equivalent based not only in Japan but all over the world including the US, so I am not that surprised by that misconception.

I agree with Glenski when he said this is too broad a subject. If it is Enjo-Kousai or young teens having sex that we are discussing here, the thread title should reflect that (and I am pretty sure there have been previous threads for those issues already but I'm not 100% sure).

theAlphaDuck

Aug 26, 2008, 19:42

WELL THIS IS MY AREA OF EXPERTISE....

but it is an iceberg of a topic.

firstly all i say is from personal experience...taken from my adventures with countless Japanese Girls....i draw no judgement or conclutions...

i only tell it like it is:

1. the fantasy.

You know what it's like...you been poking some Japanese girl for a week or two... she's coming to the end of her run (novelty wearing off...new grass upon the horison ect.)
so i have the "what is your fantasy" talk with her...

she gets all shy...(as they all do)
but eventually she tells me what her fatasy is:
Being Raped!!
i was like OOOOO.KKKKKK

but hey try anything once that doesnt involve taking a hotdog where the sun don't shine...so...yea had that experience....felt just a liiiiiiitle bit wrong from my point of view...but she really enjoyed it....

after a while a ditched her...as you do....
few weeks later i'm at some party....talking the talk to two fine ladies (as you do) we get onto what languages we can speak and she mentions among others japanese...so i say
"he he he i can talk a bit of japanese...and drop a bit of my limited vocabluary..i.e. iku, kimutchii etc :P ..... she asks where i learnt that japanese and i mentioned this girl...

her first question was:
"did she have the rape fantasy?"
and her second question was
"did you do it?"

well i was kind of suprised by this sudden revelation...

she then said
"well from the look on your face she clearly did and you obvciosly have"
"but dont worry i was there for 8 months and they all have that fantasy...its normal"

2. new york taxi...

so i had this Japanese girl i had been shagging on and off intermitently for a few weeks....and i met a few of her friends.... one of whom was also kinda hot.... me being the guy that i was...shamelessly flirted with the new piece of candy, even while the other girl was there....
she pulled me up on it the next time we were doing the thang.....
"you like my friend huh"
"yea...she's hot...but don't worry, i'm not going get with your friend cos i know that might be a bit off key for you" (see i may have been a player but i was a considerate one)
to which she replied...
NO WORD OF A LIE
"don't worry, you never hear that japanese girl is like new york taxi?"
"eh what?"
"we are yellow, easy to get into, and we don't mind if you ride a different one everyday"

now this came as a bit of a suprise...and sure enough her friend was very hot aswell :P

3. Regarding Infidelity

now i dont want to get people into trouble so im gonna keep the detail non existant here...
but ive YET to meet a Japanese girl that doesnt put out despite having a Boyfriend...tell a lie i've met one! (and that was only cos she was going out with me...so mebe i just got chumped and didnt know it :wave: )

but yea....sometimes even totally deicated boyfriends and husbands.....and they didn't give a ****... like most girls feel a bit guilty....but not them...

once again skimming on details...

i once had one girl in my house, making me a cake, and shagging me etc. while her longterm boyfriend was off on a Truly long mission on her behalf...

that made me feel guilty...but not her!!!

4 eager to please

i found that they very much apretiate it when the guy takes the lead...and they will do anything for you!!

however alot are into the whole humiliation/mild s&m thing...
they also seem to have a high level of interest almost universally in crazy sex culture....

5. Japanese Guy's

well there nice chaps....but sadly 9 out of 10 are completely GAMELESS!
the 1 in 10 that does have game tho are quite dangerous!

and talking candedly with them...they like thier girls SKINNY!!
as in body of a 12 year old girl skinny....yea i can see the apeal.... but me i prefer a bit of breastage...

anyway..those are SOME of my experiences with japanese girls...there are many more, and i'm alway's happy to share.... :-)

i hope this helps

Jericho Desu

Aug 26, 2008, 21:28

theAlphaDuck: .....

Anyway even though I have no experience of this kind in Japan and that this is a pretty broad topic, my opinion is that this discussion is pretty stupid. The reason why I say this is because every country has odd or strange fentishes when you dwelve deep enough and they usually end up crossing over with other countries. For example the whole 'school girl' thing and the fact theres a whole industry about that in Japan, as if there isn't one in the US or UK? (Cheerleaders or Catholic School girls anyone?)

As for those who cheat on their boyfriends/husbands to make money as prostitutes, again this is something only the Japanese do? You can tell all the stories you want about what kind of fantasies men/woman have in Japan and I wouldn't be surprised if you hear the exact same thing in any other country. I think the fact that the Japanese in general always seem so 'mysterious' in the eyes of westeners and that they do things seemingly very different is what brings them so much attention when this kind of topic shows up, even though the results are no more unique then in any other country.

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 21:32

You're not the only one who was surprised by this. The situation of the girl in your class matches up with a survey I was shown by one of the research student about the shear high number of Japanese students who have had sex by a fairly young age. I wish I could remember the numbers, but it was well over 50% and I believe it even beat out the United States (which seems hard to believe, so I'm not taking the study as absolute fact of course).
Two questions from this:

1) If you aren't going to cite the actual figures and ages, or provide some links we can all look at and judge for ourselves, why even bring this up?

2) If you don't take a study you cite here as serious, why bring it up?

Charles,
My best friend was driving through Nevada with his wife and got a strange expression on his face when he passed a certain ranch. He tried to explain to her (very prim and proper) that it was a whorehouse, and a famous one at that. She refused to believe him until he stopped at a phone booth and showed her the listings under "brothels". As for Saitama, never been there, but were the listings actually brothels, or a combination of those, soaplands, massage parlors, and other related sites?

Re: the girl wanting to sell her body for money
My own HS in Sapporo had a similar thing. Well, one that we KNEW of! The girl actually posted her image on the Internet on a dating site (for enjokosai) wearing her school uniform. Don't ask me how it was discovered! I don't know, but it certainly led to some discipline issues with her.

So, where is this "discussion" going? Most things cited can easily enough be compared to similar things in other countries (well, from our own experiences and common knowledge anyway, not from any official reports or documentation). The issue of sex in Japan. What was that again? Pardon me. I'll look at those two videos Emoni provided and see if there's anything there to respond to.

theAlphaDuck

Aug 26, 2008, 21:44

ok i'm not talking about prostitution here...

and i'm not judging... i say simply SOME of what i have experienced.

and i think it IS a little deeper in Japan...

AS A MAN OF THE WORLD....

i have probably had more girls from more countries than everyone else on this board put together...and i will tell you this.

NO 2 COUNTRIES ARE THE SAME!!!

JAP girls like it when you throw them doen on the bed and take them...
Latino gerl will throw YOU onto the bed and will shag you senseless...
American girls....hallowed be thy head :P
Dutch.... open and direct
Sweedish...HOT and Open minded
French...Plenty of passion there
see also Italian....
Polish.... Hell YEA!! also makes AMerican Head (WHICH IS GOOD) seem like a dodgy handjob from a paraplegic cross dresser
German.... Thats some good buisness....good all rounders, plenty of GO
Thai....good buisness but be carefull
English.... good alround....can be proper filthy...in the best possible way!

etc. etc. time is what it is...

but i tell you now...

no 2 countires are the same...

so the thread and its general nature...VERY much on point

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 21:56

BBC Doumentary. Sex in Japan.... yes, don't let the misspelling fool you. It's a real BBC production (or part thereof) from 2000.

I like this summary (from the land of the BBC, no less):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,4047495-103689,00.html
But we are swiftly back on familiar ground with Sex In Japan, a programme which shows its hand from the start by starting in Tokyo's red light district. Much as if a fair representation of what goes on in Britain's bedrooms could be found in the least gentrified corners of Soho, Sex In Japan informs us that the Japanese don't connect sex and guilt, do like schoolgirls, consider porn photographer Araki to be a "genius" and are experts at bondage. "Actually, the high level of Japanese bondage is a fair comment," Dobson reveals. "Japanese bondage is streets ahead of its international competitors and can be quite impressive - if you are a boy scout."

But although there is undoubtedly much for the seeker of sexual oddity to find in Japan, it covers the banal truth. "Clearly, like anywhere else," Dobson says, "the majority of sex in Japan goes on between consenting adult couples in long-term relationships."

And there is nothing here that hasn't been covered thoroughly in the western media, with a thin veneer of cultural superiority coating the voyeurism. Yet there are genuine popular culture phenomena in Japan that we don't hear about, and not just J-pop stars. Ringu (The Ring) is the Japanese equivalent of Scream or The Blair Witch Project, a deeply disturbing horror movie about an urban legend that comes true. Massively popular in Japan - and in movie-loving Hong Kong - it has spawned three sequels in as many years, as well as a TV series.

Needless to say, it doesn't get a mention on Japan TV.

JAP girls like it when you throw them doen on the bed and take them...
I'm only going to ask you politely once. Don't use that word "Jap" ever again here!

Glenski

Aug 26, 2008, 22:22

Regarding the Waseda rape club video...
1) too little time with the lawyer
2) too little time with the Waseda gender studies group
3) too much fluff about the club itself
4) do a Google search on college sex videos, and you'll see plenty non-Japanese adventures that put this to shame (not for the faint of heart), and I'm not going to brush any incident off as mere hazing (which has been going on for decades everywhere)
5) similar incidents have taken place amid Navy ships, although on a small scale and the women were NOT consenting! American Navy women, not Japanese street girls
6) just what was the whole point of bringing up the rape club video? Want to talk about it? Talk, Emoni. Offer some opinion other than the pseudo-narrative you wrote as a lead-in.

With this almost overwhelming image that is exuded from Japan about "their attitude" about sex, it is easy to become entirely lost and quickly form the stereotype that all Japanese share some hidden life that no one sees, that any one could be a prostitute or have been at some time in their life.True anywhere in the world.

Generalizations running wild ultimately can be more dangerous than the subjects themselves, leading to prejudice and outright racism.Blatantly obvious, which led me to ask the first questions on this thread.

May I make at least one request, other than to answer my questions here? That would be this... try to show some information or videos (yuk) from the other side of the coin -- where the women are benefitting.
first video - most of it dealt with the male point of view
second video - Waseda rape club (nuff said)
third video - male hosts and helpless women who fall in love with them
It's a little one-sided here in terms of the "issue of Japanese sex". (Yes, I noted the few seconds of "reporting" about enjokosai, but that's all it was. nothing more. nothing about soaplands, hostess clubs, massage parlors, abortion (the "benefitting" is subjective), freeters and the Xmas cake girls that get older and older by choice, etc.

Whew! Topic overload. Where do we begin...? Didn't I say that?

Mycernius

Aug 27, 2008, 00:59

Japan tends to be passively direct about the subject. It will pop up all over on the outside in certain areas, but not really discussed unless behind doors. I've seen people shudder at any sign of it, I've seen people giggle.
A reaction that you will get in a great many other countries. I find it in the UK and have found it in the US and Canada
I've seen a 20 something housewife walk down the street with her bicycle caring a large box with a home-version of a stripping pole right through my neighborhood.
It is actually quite a good way of keeping fit and their have been a few people that use it for just that, keeping fit.

Clearly there is a great deal of shock value in a documentary like this. The portrayal of Japan's over all opinion by the BBC is generalized,
Spot on and therefore not a good example of research.
from those I have spoken with on the subject I am consistently concerned about the LACK of knowledge on the subject of sex despite its prevalence in Japan.
Again, not a good example on documented reasearch. If opinions counted then this world would be still in the dark ages.

I have spoken with researchers on the subject in the past but I was very curious what members of this board think, especial those with long terms in the country.
Instead of saying you have spoken to researchers could you actually give us some links to research/articles rather than word of mouth?

Emoni

Aug 27, 2008, 04:20

6) just what was the whole point of bringing up the rape club video? Want to talk about it? Talk, Emoni. Offer some opinion other than the pseudo-narrative you wrote as a lead-in.

To mix in the positive with the negative. To show one example of where the "general view of sex in Japan" can go too far, and was allowed to for quite some time.

Instead of saying you have spoken to researchers could you actually give us some links to research/articles rather than word of mouth?

Can't, as these were just conversations and just that. During that time I didn't look up the research as I couldn't read the Japanese. The reason I posted this thread is to find out more both in research AND personal experience and views of posters.

Glenski

Aug 27, 2008, 07:06

Emoni

Aug 27, 2008, 08:26

Mix the positive with the negative? Where have you shown much, if any, positive?
Is anyone else even the slightest bit irritated that Emoni has constantly refused to cite any documented evidence for the claims she had with people that have extensive experience in research on this topic? Repeated questions have asked for something more concrete, and now we get this:
I'm sure there has been plenty of useful material in English! Besides, it's getting a bit boring to see no replies to direct questions. In some circles that is known as trolling.

I'm becoming exceedingly disappointed with the highly defensive and aggressive responses to what was simply a post discussing both videos along with personal commentary and sharing curiosity. The most obvious sense of "positive" is personally agreeing with the open and more prevalent aspects in the country in certain areas.

I've made it very clear that the conversations and experiences I have had are NOT accademic, even if my curiosity borders on such aims. Going into details about the specifics of private conversations I hesitate to do so not only for privacy reasons, but also because it was simply over years of time and to re-piece every comment would not be entirely productive. If you are looking for a bibliography of each experience, conversation, and book of personal experiences and talks I've had with people you have very high expectations of my ability to catalog my life.

My response to you Glenski is this, chill please. Since when did posting out of sincere curiosity, listing a few recent finds to what lead me to thinking about the topic more, and a few personal experiences deserve for you calling and inquisition against me? If you think a page long post like this is somehow trolling, or as you stated early (like other posts at random on this board) belongs in the Serious Discussion board, then I'd appreciate if you stand back and let yourself cool off. Next step I'm expecting is for you to ask on this thread for it to be locked like every other thread I ever started.

If sincere curiousity based on a few recent findings is now a BAD thing on a board about Japan for those interested in learning, then the entire purpose of this forum has become very warped. I'm looking for thoughts on the subject, more sources of information, anything that anyone ELSE has run into on the "nihonjinron" of views on sex. Please stop attempting to turn this into something it is not by turning this into some sort of debate or adversarial argument.

Thank you.

theAlphaDuck

Aug 27, 2008, 08:39

here here emoni,

my feet are firmly planted in your camp.

as for research....
in this subject i have done plenty of research.....oh yea....

ive rattled off a few experiences....but was suprised that no-one had any comment on any of those 4 main things i noticed about japanese attitude towards sex and relationships.

and instead have managed to move what could be an interesting topic and thread (as yours often are)
into the rather dull world of motives and semantics....snooore....

i have already received one infraction from my posts on this thread...(really must get round to starting that one about freedom of speech, which was funny as it stank of hypocrocy)

so heres me bringing it back on tack...

SEX

lets talk about it.....
what makes japan and its view on sex unique...
and why?

it would be nice to hear from some japneese and from non japanese who have experience with japanese

Glenski

Aug 27, 2008, 11:52

I'm becoming exceedingly disappointed with the highly defensive and aggressive responses to what was simply a post discussing both videos along with personal commentary and sharing curiosity. But, Emoni, you did not make it clear that you only wanted to discuss those videos. You wrote a very long first message and concluded in bold type with what most of us so far have perceived as your main point:
So, my question is this: Without getting too personal, what are your thoughts, experiences, stories, and views on the issue of sex in Japan and Japanese society? Many/most responders here have tried to get you to pin down the focus of such a huge topic. You refuse. As a result, where has this "discussion" gone? Not anywhere specific, and you have not helped the matter.
The most obvious sense of "positive" is personally agreeing with the open and more prevalent aspects in the country in certain areas.What would you say those are? Help us out here! Give an opinion or at least describe it so we know what to agree or disagree with. Otherwise, you look like an academic fishing (not trolling) for background information. In that light...
I've made it very clear that the conversations and experiences I have had are NOT accademic, even if my curiosity borders on such aims.Well, then, why do you bring up the fact that you have had discussions with "researchers" (teachers and students of gender studies) if you are not prepared to bring up even the smallest point of the discussions you had? Nobody is saying you have to give out names of those people or their test subjects. Just tell us what issue you and they talked about. This statement:
Going into details about the specifics of private conversations I hesitate to do so not only for privacy reasons, but also because it was simply over years of time and to re-piece every comment would not be entirely productive.is a cop-out. Why dangle the carrot in front of us if you aren't willing to let us eat or even sniff it?

And, how about comments you made like these:
Furthermore, I'm not saying Japan is profoundly unique or exclusive around the world in regards to sex.
Japanese views about sex do NOT seem the same as any country in the world at all. Contradictory!

And, how about this comment of yours?
In fact, part of the point I wanted to stress while discussing the topic is that it is important not to take any generality and consider it as applicable to all in Japan or anywhere.Ok, so this implies that you want only people's specific experiences, one-off responses to a multitude of possible sex issues in Japan (like your example of the stripper pole, which itself generated a false idea of what you meant when you brouht it up). To what end will these individual moments scattered here and there amount?

Next step I'm expecting is for you to ask on this thread for it to be locked like every other thread I ever started.You know darned well why I asked for that on other threads. They started somewhere and went off in all directions aimlessly. This one has not even gone anywhere from the get-go because the focus is too broad. If you want to publicly berate me, I'd suggest moving your comments to a PM instead of cluttering your already weak thread.
I'm looking for thoughts on the subject, more sources of information, anything that anyone ELSE has run into on the "nihonjinron" of views on sex. Please stop attempting to turn this into something it is not by turning this into some sort of debate or adversarial argument.You're going to get debate and adversarial arguments anyway, but you need to define what to talk about first. Want to stick with the 3 videos? That's focused enough for me, but I would like you to realize something here. My last few posts provided feedback on the videos, and that in itself should have been a launching pad for you or anyone to extend this "topic". Have you responded to those comments? Nope. Why is that? This is your thread, and I paid you the courtesy of watching the links you provided. Do me the courtesy of responding to my comments. Say something to let us know what you feel, ok?

kireikoori

Aug 27, 2008, 12:21

kX1mpCokiYU

"The West sees the Japanese as emotionless, controlled, and even sexless".

Yes, let's stereotype "Westerners" with silly tripe!

I hate it when everything is so easily said as just Eastern and Western. Are other Asian countries really so similar when it comes to sex as Japan? Seems like Japan is the biggest porn producer in the world. And seems like the rest of Asia doesn't produce much at all.

One Southeastern Asian at another forum told me that sexual openness is a Western value and alien to the sexually conservative East.

lol, the search for truth about cultural difference.

I mostly blame Southeast Asia's sexual difference from Japan on Islam. And from the perspective of Abrahamic values like Christianity, Islam is a Western influence.

Haha, the hazyness of East vs. West.
The Northeast Asia think the difference between the West and East is lack of Christian(Abrahamic) morals in the East.
The West Asian Arab, Southeast and other Islamic Asian world, thinks the difference between East and West is that Westerners are more religiously relaxed and lacking in Abrahamic(Islamic) morals.

Har, the irony.

Glenski

Aug 27, 2008, 12:28

kireikoori,
Nice point. And, one has to be careful about referring to "the west" because Americans' views on sex differ from those of other westerners (like Europeans). But we all look alike, don't we? :)

Emoni

Aug 27, 2008, 15:19

Glenski, I've already stated and answered the questions that I feel are important and relevant. If you want to nit-pick and cut apart and interrogate, when I'm simply trying to get information and thoughts on the subject, videos, or what was stated, go right ahead but I'm not going to oblige and drag the thread down anymore. Most of your reply is ignoring my request and further attacking and that is not even remotely what I posted for.

You can call me a cop-out or whatever at this point. I don't care to put any more effort into that. Informational or observation is what I am looking for (I.E. Kireikoori's post), not a critique of posting style, personal attacks, or the like.

End of that in my opinion.

On to the purpose of this thread.

Kireikoori, you made a good point by stating that there is a clear "western" stereotype in the portrayal in the BBC film as well. I also agree that sexual morals that may conflict could be connected to religious reasons as well. It is misdirected to believe generalities so broad can be considered realistic, but of course you have to generalize to some degree for the sake of observation and understanding of cultural tendencies. You simply have to remember that nothing is ever 100% consistent along those lines. That was probably the biggest problem I had with the BBC documentary, partly because it was short (but I think this is only part of a whole) is that it was not put in context.

Clearly there is a lot to be said for social observation about sexual practices and tendencies in Japan, business, personal life, and how they meld with the rush rush of Japan in the big cities. More so, I'm curious about the more rural areas as well.

Since I'm mostly basing this around the starting point of the documentaries (however flawed they are), I'm curious if anyone here has first hand experience with how sex is initially TAUGHT, school, by parents, and how the views are absorbed.

Glenski

Aug 27, 2008, 20:26

So, you choose to answer only the posts that you like? My posts 24 and 25 should have given you plenty of material, but did you respond? Nope.

Picky, Emoni. Far too picky.

Want firsthand experience of how sex is taught? Sorry. I don't think you'll find many sex teachers around. Sex ed, however. That's different. I saw one and only one sex ed "class" at the HS where I worked. Pretty lame stuff. 450 seniors crammed into a gym with the school nurse and a few teachers (on the side, of course), plus an outside person presenting a video (factual but not all-encompassing, and it barely elicited anything from the students). Were some students already practicing sex then? Yes. Would anyone feel comfortable asking questions in that situation? Hardly.

there is a clear "western" stereotype in the portrayal in the BBC film as well.The BBC vid had an Asian narrator and a prominent Japanese sociologist giving views. Not Japanese-American. Japanese. The bondage "instructor" was Japanese. The host club was completely from a Japanese POV (lacking in many issues, but still all Japanese). The vid on the rape club had a Japanese providing most of the perspective. What western stereotype was portrayed?

I also agree that sexual morals that may conflict could be connected to religious reasons as well.But not in most of Japan.

Japanese adolescent sex ed. (what you probably already knew from your gender studies students and researchers)
http://www.aegis.com/news/bbc/2004/BB040726.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978575-1,00.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/7962.php
http://www.thebody.com/content/art25142.html

orochi

Aug 27, 2008, 20:56

450 seniors crammed into a gym with the school nurse

Was she hot?
My, uh, friend wants to know.

bruno

Aug 27, 2008, 21:35

For further research I recommend :
"Das Geschlechtsleben des japanischen Volkes."
by Friedrich S. Krauss and Tamio Satow (1931, old story !):-)

undrentide

Aug 28, 2008, 00:01

but YES japanese girls are pretty damn easy....so it should not be hard to do some research for yourself...
(if that offends you then i'm sorry that the truth hurts)

for some reason alot of japanese people get so bloody offended SO easily...

Most Japanese people (why "japanese" without capital?) are offended because you make a blanket statement, not the truth.
If you say "japanese girls I've met/I've got to know are pretty damn easy",
it will be less offensive - and maybe more convincing. We have a saying
類は友を呼ぶ (Rui wa tomo wo yobu/Like attracts like)

Pachipro

Aug 28, 2008, 01:06

WELL THIS IS MY AREA OF EXPERTISE....

but it is an iceberg of a topic.

firstly all i say is from personal experience...taken from my adventures with countless Japanese Girls....i draw no judgement or conclutions...

AS A MAN OF THE WORLD....

I have probably had more girls from more countries than everyone else on this board put together...and i will tell you this.

NO 2 COUNTRIES ARE THE SAME!!!

JAP girls like it when you throw them doen on the bed and take them...

Pretty bold statement coming from someone whos profile says he's never been to Japan. (If that is not the case, then please update your profile to show the truth. Also it would help if you could spell.) I guess your "expertise" with a few Japanese tourists makes you an expert? I say this based on your profile.

Your comments, by the way, seem, I said "seem", to be on the mark, but they could've come from any book or documentary. I have much more "real" personal experience on this subject and will add to this post in time after the BS has been weeded out and after I see what other inaccuracies and stereotypes are from the so-called "experts."

I also find your inflammatory use of the word "Jap" offensive and inappropriate. Just by your non-chalant use of the word, and your insistance on using it in a later post, shows your immaturity and your lack of knowledge of history on the use of the word. To you, and your immature young "Japanese friends" (if that is really the truth), who, if true, are also ignorant, shows that it's becoming normal in today's society to use the word where the younger generation is brainwashed and has no concept of history. My generation of Japanese friends find it very offensive and equivelant to the "N" word in America and would NEVER tolerate it even today. But that just shows the generation gap where ignorance reigns supreme among the young.

How about if someone insisted on calling you and all people from the UK "gits" and "limeys" and slobs for not brushing your teeth? How long would it take before you would calling for an end to stereo-types and offensive language? Think about it before you go go calling for "free speech". Some speech is offensive and should not be used, especially on a forum like this one. Other forums may permit it to be used, but I doubt if intelligent people stay there long.

Remember, you have the freedom to not participate on this forum if you don't like the rules. There is much leeway given here, but there is a limit to what is tolerated and what is not tolerated. To date I have only found one instance where I disagreed concerning speech on this forum and that has been solved to my satisfaction, but it had nothing to do with hate speech which you seem to espouse.

theAlphaDuck, your comments are most welcome and encouraged, but please stay within the rules of this forum.

Emoni

Aug 28, 2008, 05:01

Want firsthand experience of how sex is taught? Sorry. I don't think you'll find many sex teachers around. Sex ed, however. That's different. I saw one and only one sex ed "class" at the HS where I worked. Pretty lame stuff. 450 seniors crammed into a gym with the school nurse and a few teachers (on the side, of course), plus an outside person presenting a video (factual but not all-encompassing, and it barely elicited anything from the students). Were some students already practicing sex then? Yes. Would anyone feel comfortable asking questions in that situation? Hardly.

The BBC vid had an Asian narrator and a prominent Japanese sociologist giving views. Not Japanese-American. Japanese. The bondage "instructor" was Japanese. The host club was completely from a Japanese POV (lacking in many issues, but still all Japanese). The vid on the rape club had a Japanese providing most of the perspective. What western stereotype was portrayed?

But not in most of Japan.

Japanese adolescent sex ed. (what you probably already knew from your gender studies students and researchers)
http://www.aegis.com/news/bbc/2004/BB040726.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978575-1,00.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/7962.php
http://www.thebody.com/content/art25142.html

Thanks for the links. Japanese adolescent sex ed didn't come up too often, only a few statistics or so.

What I meant by the western stereotype was actually the tone of which the video was set, and the aim of the audience basing it off the initial preconception of what the west views the Japanese... and then following that with the material they showed.