How to get past the "intermediate" level?

[tada]

From what I've recently learned, and experienced, the intermediate to advanced (but not near fluent) level has got to be the most discouraging 90% of the learning curve for Japanese. As a beginner, it's fun when you can make a native speaker's head explode when you say a few common phrases. Sure you can't understand, say, a newscast, or even a kid's show, but you don't expect to. You just started. Now, at my level, it's just frustrating that I can't understand all of what people are saying. It's even tougher because everyone seems to speak about 3 billion words per minute. If I'm anywhere less than fluent, people assume I can't speak the language at all, it seems. I may as well have just started. I fear this is the best I will ever be at the language.

So, any tips for getting past this annoying level, or tips to just stay motivated?

[Buntaro]

Tada,

I wrote a book in Japanese many years ago. For me, that was a huge jump in my learning curve. I am not saying that you should go out and write a book, but you should consider writing some stories or articles, and get them proof-read. I think you will see how much such writing helps.

[alantin]

A book! @_@

I have heard of a technique on similar lines but not that extreme. It takes some dedication but should be effective.

Get a text and translate it on a paper to your own language, then wait a day or two and translate it from your paper back to Japanese. If it sucks, do it again as long as you can make a decent translation (doesn't need to be exactly the same as the original).
I don't remember the name they had for the technique though..

Right now I doing "sentence mining" from books and stuff (just google it!) with the goal of getting 10 000 sentences in my SRS one day. It's a technique suggested on the AJATT.
I'm 333 sentences in! Woohoo! :blush:
Anyway even with so few cards in, I'm really seeing results!

[tada]

It seems like speaking/listening is where I need the most work. After all you have a time limit then unlike reading/writing. Does the book technique help with speaking/listening?

[alantin]

Well..
I think it gives you vocabulary which in turn helps everything else but essentially there is only one way to learn listening and speaking.. Doing it! :souka:

try jpod101 (http://www.japanesepod101.com/index.php?cat=6) for listening! It's great! :cool:

[Mike Cash]

If it is any comfort to you....I don't understand all of what everybody is saying either.

[Charles Barkley]

Is your avatar correct that you live in America? If so, the answer is clear: move to Japan. Or hire a tutor and watch tons of japanese television, read japanese books, etc.

I understand your frustrations: saying things like わかりません,聞こえませんでした,or もう一度言ってくれませんか at a certain level will cause a lot of people to start speaking in English, but not saying anything leaves you lost. If it's any consolation, there are distinct frustrations at each different level of language learning.

Right now, I am really feeling the gap between what I am able to say, and what I am able to understand. Also, the types of japanese I still can't understand, like humor/people having fun and talking more slangily, are some of the ones I would most like to understand.

Just keep at it, use real japanese for your sources whenever possible, and it will come along...

[grapefruit]

Also, lots of students seem to have trouble passing the intermediate level because of little proficiency in kanji. Kanji knowledge is essential to expanding vocabulary.

[tada]

Is your avatar correct that you live in America? If so, the answer is clear: move to Japan.

Don't you think I'm trying to? It's not that easy. I'm trying everything I can to ensure a job shortly after graduating college. I went to a J-E bilingual job fair last weekend, which was part of the realization of this frustration.

[alantin]

If it's any consolation, there are distinct frustrations at each different level of language learning.

So it means that at every level you encounter new ones just when you were rejoicing about getting rid of the old ones..?

It might come as a shock but.. It isn't! :blush:


Keep on studying and a couple of years from now you look back to this time and wonder how little you knew. Couple of years after that you look back at that time thinking the same! :-)

[Charles Barkley]

Then just be patient. You certainly don't need to be advanced level before coming over here, and once you get here you will find that before you know it you are.

[Taiko666]

I think I'm probaby at almost the same level as the OP. I've recently started reading a grammar exercise book that claims to cover JLPT2, but it's written in a non-stodgy way with loads of example sentences. To my surprise I've found that a lot of 'noise' I couldn't understand when listening to Japanese conversations has turned out to be grammar which I've learnt in this book. And I've also found that occasionaly throwing a piece of grammar from this book into my own Japanese has caused my Japanese friends to start speaking to me 'normally'. Unfortunately I can't remember its name, I'll post that later.

[tada]

Then just be patient. You certainly don't need to be advanced level before coming over here, and once you get here you will find that before you know it you are.

Hm?

I don't get what you're suggesting.

[bakaKanadajin]

I've recently started studying more seriously with the goal in mind of passing JLPT1 by next December of 2009. Based on the number of hours generally accepted as being the required amount to do so, I have enough time and certainily enough 'yarigai'. So far I'm about 2/3 of the way through my JLPT2 grammar mondaishuu and I've picked up 90% of the kanji introduced up to that point. Still a long way to go though, a long long way.

You'll find that as you start to get into the thick stuff, the pay-out is at first slim. You start to understand much more in terms of formal structures (stuff in newscasts, newspapers and articles, etc), and reading-wise a lot of that is increasing your kanji knowledge base of course. But speaking-wise, because it's not everday convo. type stuff, you don't feel like you're improving much because you're still stuck saying most of the same things as before. Actually to really understand everyday convo a whole different kind of grammar is required, stuff you may not likely find in any JLPT book. For that you might need some speech-coaching from a native speaker, or simply to live here and absorb it more organically. Everyday convo. grammar is a trimmed down, leaner version that's meant to help one navigate high-context conversations with as little extraneous and unnecessary speech as possible. For that, the shortened forms of formal structures are belted out in rapid succession, which is why as you said, it sounds like 3 billion words a minute and very little is intelligible at first.

If you want to break through and really become an intermediate/advanced USER of Japanese (literacy and speech), I suggest first trying to study for the JLPT so 1) after everythings said and done you have some useful accreditation that actually gauges your literacy and could be helpful in getting a job some day and 2) you then have a solid base of vocab and grammar to work with and hammer out your speaking skills as you go along. To that end, native-speaker exposure is def. necessary and living here would be extremely beneficial.

[ASHIKAGA]

Then just be patient. You certainly don't need to be advanced level before coming over here, and once you get here you will find that before you know it you are.

Hm?
I don't get what you're suggesting.

He is suggesting that once you go to Japan (and immerse yourself in the language in real life settings), you will reach the advanced level in no time.

[bakaKanadajin]

He is suggesting that once you go to Japan (and immerse yourself in the language in real life settings), you will reach the advanced level in no time.

It's a good point he has made (Charles B.) but I might throw in a pinch of salt and say, depending on how you get over here (working for an English school is the easiest/most popular way, so you'd be potentially working at a place where you're forced to speak English all day) and how well you're able to network (can be difficult if you're in a non-urban environment, aka 'the inaka'), being here and quickly becoming an advanced user of Japanese is not an automatic given. 'In no time' can definitely be a variable time frame for some who come here to learn. In short, the machinery of life can get in the way!

That being said, it's still the best way to learn.

[Charles Barkley]

It's a good point he has made (Charles B.) but I might throw in a pinch of salt and say, depending on how you get over here (working for an English school is the easiest/most popular way, so you'd be potentially working at a place where you're forced to speak English all day) and how well you're able to network (can be difficult if you're in a non-urban environment, aka 'the inaka'), being here and quickly becoming an advanced user of Japanese is not an automatic given. 'In no time' can definitely be a variable time frame for some who come here to learn. In short, the machinery of life can get in the way!

That being said, it's still the best way to learn.

The OP seemed fairly dedicated, so I was operating under that assumption. If you are not dedicated, you could live here for a long time and barely speak the language at all...

Anyway, I would say I have reached the 'advanced level' as it is being described in the OP, but I am so far from having good Japanese--it really is a process that requires patience...

[grapefruit]

The OP seemed fairly dedicated, so I was operating under that assumption. If you are not dedicated, you could live here for a long time and barely speak the language at all...
Anyway, I would say I have reached the 'advanced level' as it is being described in the OP, but I am so far from having good Japanese--it really is a process that requires patience...

That's right. It's is a lifetime process.

[tada]

(can be difficult if you're in a non-urban environment, aka 'the inaka')

I hear just the opposite; people are a lot friendlier in the countryside than in the city.

At this point, I'm looking at three main options:
- Teaching English. Not really my favorite option, but it's the safest, and I'd honestly take any work I can get if it was in Japan.
- Come over for three months after I graduate and hope to land a job in that time. With my credentials (only part-time office jobs as work experience, and aforementioned relatively limited Japanese ability) this seems really unsafe.
- Work for the same few places (think Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc.) that seriously over 99% of the grads from my department seem to end up at and ask to be transferred over to Japan. I know Microsoft has a dearth of CS-oriented people, but I don't want to work in the US for years before this happens for fear of my Japanese skills atrophying. And I really don't want to work in Seattle; the weather and traffic here is god-awful.

[Zirdante]

http://www.freshverse.com/tv.php

That shows CH8 Fuji television live. It's not on at the moment when I checked though. I've watched anime, dubbed wildlife documentaries about otters, drama shows, some crime investigation shows etc. Bookmark worthy stream.

Alantin, you studying independently, or do you go to some class? Know any good places in Helsinki to study beginner level japanese?

[alantin]

Thanks for the link! I'll check it out later!

I have been studying mostly independantly for the whole time I have been interested in the language. I have tried some Folk High School courses but not much (read 'none'!) of those offered here above the beginner level..

There are plenty of courses offered in the Helsinki region! The Helsinki university has a whole department for east asian cultures and languages (That's where I'm gonna try to get to study full time next! :cool:) and I recall that they offer many courses through the open univerity so that's worth checking out!

Also you should find something in a Folk High School! They are a lot cheaper that the open university courses but you cant have them accepted in your curriculum in a university level institution.

[Zirdante]

Checked the Folk High School a while back and all the japanese courses were overbooked. I'm attending a business college so a non open university isn't an option though.

*Checked the open university site, and facepalmed when I saw that their japanese courses use a romanized version from japanese for busy people. I can't even imagine going to a course that doesn't use only japanese writing (except when learning hiragana&katakana (which I am still learning as well))

I'll check what the department for east asian cultures and languages has to offer.

What educational backround does it require to apply to the school? Does any second degree education qualitfy or do you have to be a high school graduate?

I suck at reading, but I can hold a small conversation, and have some vocabulary I've picked up from anime/music and would like to progress further. I've been doing some self-study(got like 10gigs of study material on the comp) but not very confident of them, since literally every document contains bits and pieces of information, and it doesn't have any consistency. So by seeking a course with a real teacher, I can get a consistent learning curve from beginner to intermediate.

I apologize for the offtopic nature of this post concerning the tread.

[bakaKanadajin]

I hear just the opposite; people are a lot friendlier in the countryside than in the city.



I didn't say they weren't. I'd definitely agree, the rural areas I've visited have been loads friendlier than Tokyo. But being in a rural areas CAN (not 100%) be limiting to the extent that there are fewer public places for young people to congregate and socialize, and within those that exist there will be less variety. And of course in rural areas there are fewer people overall.

[alantin]

An average rural area being about the size of an average Finnish city.. :okashii:

Okay! Sorry about that! Carry on! :wave:

[tada]

I didn't say they weren't. I'd definitely agree, the rural areas I've visited have been loads friendlier than Tokyo. But being in a rural areas CAN (not 100%) be limiting to the extent that there are fewer public places for young people to congregate and socialize, and within those that exist there will be less variety. And of course in rural areas there are fewer people overall.
That's not my primary concern though; getting a job is. No matter where I lived in Japan, it would be much better for my Japanese ability (and mental health) than anywhere in the US. Can anyone suggest which of the three options that I listed in my last post I should take?

[FrustratedDave]

So it means that at every level you encounter new ones just when you were rejoicing about getting rid of the old ones..?


That about sums it up, if you have no challeges in learning the language at every level, then #1, you have stopped learning or #2 you you know the language better than any Jappanese scholar for all hystory of all time.
Learning never stops and so do the challenges/frustrations.

[bakaKanadajin]

That's not my primary concern though; getting a job is. No matter where I lived in Japan, it would be much better for my Japanese ability (and mental health) than anywhere in the US. Can anyone suggest which of the three options that I listed in my last post I should take?


As stated in your OP (the topic of this thread) your primary goal is to surpass the intermediate level of Japanese language ability. I was commenting to this end.

Try to keep up with your own topic.

As far as your career path goes, easiest thing to do would be to become an English teacher, get a sponsored visa so you can get over here and get your feet planted, then when you're settled start looking for other work. You'll have plenty of time and you'll also have resources (a phone, an address, some kind of status i.e. alien registration card, a salary), etc.

[tada]

As stated in your OP (the topic of this thread) your primary goal is to surpass the intermediate level of Japanese language ability. I was commenting to this end.
Try to keep up with your own topic.
As far as your career path goes, easiest thing to do would be to become an English teacher, get a sponsored visa so you can get over here and get your feet planted, then when you're settled start looking for other work. You'll have plenty of time and you'll also have resources (a phone, an address, some kind of status i.e. alien registration card, a salary), etc.

Coming over there is related to the topic, since it seems to be the one and only way for me (and I'm sure a lot of others) to get past this level.

I just don't seem to be able to advance living here no matter how hard I try. It's not like I ever actually get chances to speak in Japanese.

[ASHIKAGA]

Have you tried Japanese internet chatrooms? You can find voice chat rooms on chat clients such as Yahoo Japan Messenger and Paltalk where you can actually converse in Japanese with native Japanese speakers.

[tada]

Have you tried Japanese internet chatrooms? You can find voice chat rooms on chat clients such as Yahoo Japan Messenger and Paltalk where you can actually converse in Japanese with native Japanese speakers.

They'll be able to tell where I'm from by my IP address though.

[Glenn]

Why would that matter?

[tada]

Why would that matter?

I hear on that part of the internets, they shun people from overseas based on IP.

[Glenn]

Who are "they?" Anyway, isn't it pretty well known that there's a large Japanese population in the Seattle area? Aren't you around there? Plus, cacawate has used Skype to get into Japanese voice chat rooms and talk to Japanese people, and he's in California. I really don't think you'll have a problem with it. At any rate, you should give it a try. I've gotten into the Yahoo! text chat rooms and talked with people before, so I really doubt you'll run into any trouble just based on IP address. I'd probably do it if I had a mic.

[JimmySeal]

Then don't go to those parts.

[tada]

Who are "they?" Anyway, isn't it pretty well known that there's a large Japanese population in the Seattle area? Aren't you around there? Plus, cacawate has used Skype to get into Japanese voice chat rooms and talk to Japanese people, and he's in California. I really don't think you'll have a problem with it. At any rate, you should give it a try. I've gotten into the Yahoo! text chat rooms and talked with people before, so I really doubt you'll run into any trouble just based on IP address. I'd probably do it if I had a mic.

There's not really that much of a Japanese population here. It's a lot more Chinese and Vietnamese. The International District (Chinatown, but we're politically correct) reflects this. Hard to find exact numbers due to some peoples' annoying tendency to group all Asians into one.

Then don't go to those parts.

Those are the very parts I'm asking about.

edit> oh right, it was just 2ch users. Nevermind.

[alantin]

Plus, cacawate has used Skype to get into Japanese voice chat rooms and talk to Japanese people, and he's in California.


How do you use Skype to get into a Japanese voice chat room? :?

Do you have to use some site or is it built in to Skype?

[Glenn]

You'll have to ask him about that. I've never used Skype; I've just heard him talk about it.

There's not really that much of a Japanese population here. It's a lot more Chinese and Vietnamese. The International District (Chinatown, but we're politically correct) reflects this. Hard to find exact numbers due to some peoples' annoying tendency to group all Asians into one.

That's a bit surprising. I thought it had one of the largest in the country.

[bakaKanadajin]

There's not really that much of a Japanese population here.

Japanese don't tend to accumulate in ethno-centric little pockets. Most that come to the West do so as individual students and then professionals, research associates, etc. Toronto and Vancouver Canada both have fairly well-sized Japanese populations but as I said you won't find them clinging to one another in the same way as other groups. That's not meant to sound derogatory but let's call a spade a spade shall we?

If Seattle is anything like Vancouver (and I understand they are similar in many ways) there should definitely be some Japanese folks there since its a main westcoast portal from the East. While there may be no discernable 'Japan town', if you turn a few stones over you will find them at least socializing together on a semi frequent basis.

To start, internet based language exchange introduction sites, university student centers advertising English study, etc., will be likely places you may run into Japanese ESL students who wish to study. After that as you network outwards, you'll find that although they live independently and kind of scattered there are certain pulse points they're all linked to. From there you'll find the more socially oriented events, outings, groupings, etc. For example group outings to public areas for BBQ's (well summer's over but, just as an example), a group might accumulate and attend a festival or exhibition of some kind or to go to a well known landmark or something, kind of like field trips. You may find yourself doing a lot of really touristy stuff.

That was my experience in Toronto anyway, I found tons of Japanese folks to hang out with and study with.

Another tip, Chinese and Japanese don't tend to mix well it seems but Korean and Japanese young people really get along and co-mingle, again just my experience in Toronto. If there are Korean areas in Seattle you may very well run into some Japanese cats there.

I found these after a quick 1min google search:
http://www.seattlelanguages.com/japanese.htm
http://www.seattlejapaneseschool.org/
http://www.seattlelanguageexchange.com/

[grapefruit]

There's not really that much of a Japanese population here. It's a lot more Chinese and Vietnamese. The International District (Chinatown, but we're politically correct) reflects this. Hard to find exact numbers due to some peoples' annoying tendency to group all Asians into one.



Those are the very parts I'm asking about.

edit> oh right, it was just 2ch users. Nevermind.

There are tons of Japanese in Seattle. Go to Uwajimaya in the International District. Pick up the free Japanese newspaper "Soy Sauce."
Also, you can visit the following site.
http://www.junglecity.com/

UW has ESL programs teeming with Japanese students. Many community colleges in Seattle are full of Japanese. Go to Seattle Central Community College, Bellevue Community College, North Gate Community College and so on. You can usually find posts that look for conversation partners. I might even run into you :)

[tada]

There are tons of Japanese in Seattle. Go to Uwajimaya in the International District. Pick up the free Japanese newspaper "Soy Sauce."

I go to Uwajimaya/Kinokuniya like once a week.

It just seems like there are a lot less Japanese than there actually are due to them being more "hidden". And even then, there's a huge difference in language ability and other areas between those coming here for college and fourth-generation Japanese-Americans. Beyond the second generation, it's rare for a Japanese-American to have any significant degree of Japanese ability. Of course, I would be an exception to this rule (I'm a yonsei).

I signed up for a conversation partner, but I really don't know if I'll get one. A lot of them seem very one-way (hardly anyone on that list I saw wanted to learn English)

[tada]

That about sums it up, if you have no challeges in learning the language at every level, then #1, you have stopped learning or #2 you you know the language better than any Jappanese scholar for all hystory of all time.
Learning never stops and so do the challenges/frustrations.
It didn't feel frustrating to me when I was a beginner, it has only recently started to become frustrating.

[ASHIKAGA]

Another thing you might want to consider doing...

Have you thought about placing an ad for Language Partners on craigslist (http://seattle.craigslist.org/)?

I found my language exchange partner on craigslist a few years back. I think it's worth a try.

[grapefruit]

Another thing you might want to consider doing...
Have you thought about placing an ad for Language Partners on craigslist (http://seattle.craigslist.org/)?
I found my language exchange partner on craigslist a few years back. I think it's worth a try.

That's a great idea. I wonder why I didn't think of that.

[AMIGO]

I started to study English when I was 9 years old. I didn't know a lot of Spanish words yet when I took up English! However I never could speak English well enough to keep a conversation until I went to England to study it with 29! In just a week I already was talking and talking without stopping. I was taken aback when I noticed I was talking all the time in English. I almost didn't need to study 'cause I knew all grammar! but just to talk happily with friends.
Read, write, learn Kanjis and set phrases, and, when you go to Japan, the only thing you'll need to learn is how to talk.

About Japanese I chat by "messenger" with a couple of Japanese good friends almost every weekend. I can keep my writting and readying's level, but neither speaking nor listening's level. (In fact I don't have any speaking and listening's level)
Now I'm working hard to save money to go to Japan to study and learn how to speak it for at least a year, while talking to my friends and making other friends.

My grain of sand

(In English people say "my two cents", in Spain people say "my grain of sand")