Transitive and Intransitive Verbs

[chrigil]

Hi,
First real post, aside from my introduction so please forgive any breaking of forum rules etc. Tell me if I commit any faux pas and I'll try not to in the future! I have searched for answers to my question and so far haven't managed to find anything so here goes!
I'm really confused by Transitive and Intransitive Verbs. I don't know whether I'm getting confused because of a bit of a mental block or whether I'm just making something that is actually quite simple, much harder than it needs to be!
Take the following for example:
Doa ga shimate imasu - the door has shut on its own - Intransitive -te form plus imasu
Doa ga shimete arimasu - the door has been shut (by someone) - transitive -te form plus arimasu
Are both of these past tense? In both examples the door has already / is already shut. This therefore begs the question, what is the difference between the above and the following:
Doa ga shimate imashita
Doa ga shimete arimashita
And what about these two, what is the difference between:
Doa ga shimatta
and
Doa ga shimate imashita
Are they both different ways of saying the same thing or do they mean different things?
As I mention above, I might just be over complicating things and uneccessarily giving myself a headache in the process!
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Chris

[Kirakira1232]

You have to remember that using "te imasu" describes a state. It describes something that you see.

Doa ga shimatte imasu.
The door is shut (you dont know by whom or by what its just the door is shut). te-imasu in this case is used with intransitive verbs because there is no indirect object that "shut the door" so to speak.

Doa ga shimete arimasu.
This implies that the door was shut for a reason. The use of the transitive verb means that there is an implied object that shut the door. Often its used to say when you or someone has done something for a purpose. In Japanese to express that you have done something you often drop the object "that did the closing" and use the transitive verb. In this case the person that did the closing is implied to be "you".

Doa ga shimatte imashita
This sounds like to me "The door was closed (but now no longer is)"

Doa ga shimete arimashita
"The door had been closed (sometime in the past)"

I'm not so sure about "Doa ga shimatta". For me the meaning seems similar to "Doa ga shimatte imashita" :?

[chrigil]

Ok thanks for that, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge! I honestly think that I'm making it much more complicated than it needs to be. The problem is I missed my class where we first started talking about Transitive Versus Intransitve etc and then at the next class kinda assumed it was some really difficult subject!

So in the door example, Doa ga shimatte imasu simply states a current fact. The door is shut. End of story, no reason or shutter of the door it's just shut.

Doa ga shimete arimasu on the other hand is implying that the shutting has been done by someone/something and/or for a reason. I assume that whilst you say " In this case the person that did the closing is implied to be 'you' " in actual fact it could, depending on the conversation, be any implied object?

Any chance you could give me 2 or 3 more example sentences using other verbs. Open, close, stop etc might be useful just to help hammer home the lesson.

Thanks again for the help, hopefully one day I'll be in a similar position and be able to pass your advice down the line.

Chris

[Kirakira1232]

This will sound strange but in Japanese its seen as "more humble" that you dont "take the credit" for closing the door so to speak. "Doa ga shimete arimasu" implies you or someone closed the door for a reason without directly connecting you or someone else to the "closing of the door" because the subject has been dropped. Therefore whoever closed the door is unimportant. Its just that its implied someone or something may have closed the door or that you closed the door for some reason.

If the subject is important you can say "Watashi wa doa wo shimeta". "I closed the door". But this is quite direct.

I hope that made sense... :?

Mado ga aite imasu (intransitive verb = "aku")
窓が開いています

Mado ga akete arimasu (transitive verb "Akeru")
窓が開けてあります

These two basically mean "the window is open" but the second one implies that I had opened the window (because it got too smelly from Kaz-kun's farts or for some other reason).

Rajio ga kowarete imasu.
ラジオが壊れています

Rajio ga kowashite arimasu.
ラジオが壊してあります

Both of these sentences mean "The radio is broken" but the second sentence implied that you or someone else went crazy and broke the radio for some reason.

Tenki ga kawatte imasu (intransitive verb "Kawaru")
天気が変わっています

Tenki ga kaete arimasu (transitive verb "Kaeru" NOT the same as 帰る）
天気が変えてあります

You can see a clear difference in this one cant you? Both sentences mean "The weather changes." The first one simply describes a fact. The second sentence however implies that you or someone else change the weather for some reason (with your funky powers!). So you can see how rediculous the second one would sound right? (unless of course you DO actually change the weather with your powers). This is more for the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs but you get the picture.

The main difference is that "-te imasu" has no indirect object that did the action (the thing that did the closing of the door). "-te arimasu" implies that someone or something acted on the object to make it in that particular state for some reason.

[grapefruit]

Mado ga aite imasu (intransitive verb = "aku")
窓が開いています
Mado wo akete arimasu (transitive verb "Akeru")
窓を開けてあります


When you use transitive verb plus te arimasu, the particle that comes with the object that was affected by the action of the verb is "ga". Alternatively you can think that since arimasu always takes the particle ga, this construction also takes the particle ga.

It should be "mado ga akete arimasu," instead of "mado o akete arimasu."

[Kirakira1232]

When you use transitive verb plus te arimasu, the particle that comes with the object that was affected by the action of the verb is "ga". Alternatively you can think that since arimasu always takes the particle ga, this construction also takes the particle ga.
It should be "mado ga akete arimasu," instead of "mado o akete arimasu."

whoops my bad! I just kept thinking of the fact that transitive verbs usually take particle "wo" but it changes　to "ga" if you use -te arimasu.

[undrentide]

"wo + ~te arimasu" itself sounds quite natural to me.

For a neutral statement, "wo + ~te arimasu" is better.
When you want to emphasize to "what" is left in so and so status (in case of aketearmasu, it is "open"), you should use ga.

[Toritoribe]

I agree with undrentide. The particle "o" is often used in that sentence structure as well.

In addition to kirakira's excellent explanation here, the following thread also might be helpful for the OP.

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37696

I'm not so sure about "Doa ga shimatta". For me the meaning seems similar to "Doa ga shimatte imashita" :?
This sentence shows the action that the door is/was shut is/was just done (in front of the speaker/writer.) It depends on the context whether the action was in the past or is in the present.

そのときドアが閉まった。(Sonotoki doa ga shimatta.)
Then the door had been shut.

たった今ドアが閉まった。(Tatta ima doa ga shimatta.)
The door has been shut just now.

[grapefruit]

I agree with undrentide. The particle "o" is often used in that sentence structure as well.
In addition to kirakira's excellent explanation here, the following thread also might be helpful for the OP.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37696
This sentence shows the action that the door is/was shut is/was just done (in front of the speaker/writer.) It depends on the context whether the action was in the past or is in the present.
そのときドアが閉まった。(Sonotoki doa ga shimatta.)
Then the door had been shut.
たった今ドアが閉まった。(Tatta ima doa ga shimatta.)
The door has been shut just now.

Really? I feel そのときドアが閉まった。(Sonotoki doa ga shimatta.) should be glossed as "Then the door was shut."

"wo + ~te arimasu" itself sounds quite natural to me.

For a neutral statement, "wo + ~te arimasu" is better.
When you want to emphasize to "what" is left in so and so status (in case of aketearmasu, it is "open"), you should use ga.

Could this be a generational thing?:( My grammar is at odds with wo + ~te arimasu. Simple google searches suggest I'm too old.:(

[grapefruit]

"
When you want to emphasize to "what" is left in so and so status (in case of aketearmasu, it is "open"), you should use ga.

Do you differentiate "~ga suki" and "~o suki" in the same way, too?:(

[chrigil]

Wow thanks everybody. It's good to see that this is such an active forum. I post a question and get a whole host of really useful pointers in about an hour! Fantastic.

Thanks again people.

BTW, is the reputation thing on this forum seen as a big thing? On some forums people get annoyed if you don't add a rep point when they've helped out and on other forums ther whole rep point thing is just ignored. Whats the 'done thing' here?

[Toritoribe]

Really? I feel そのときドアが閉まった。(Sonotoki doa ga shimatta.) should be glossed as "Then the door was shut."
Ah, my bad.:p That's right, a nuance like "then the door was just shut."

quote from the linked thread in my post above
~te imasu just denotes the present state of things, or that an action is ongoing. ex: mado ga aite imasu (the window is open)

~te arimasu is used to indicate that the verb has been executed for a purpose. ex: mado ga akete arimasu (the window is open/has been opened [perhaps to let the breeze in].
In conclusion,

Doa ga shimatte imasu.
1) The door is in the state of "closed".
2) The door is being shut. (the action is on going.)
As for the verb "shimaru," #1 would be the main use. Perhaps "shimatte ikimasu" is used for #2.

Doa ga shimete arimasu.
The door is in the state of "closed" for a purpose.


Doa ga shimatte imashita.
1) The door was in the state of "closed".
2) The door was being shut. (the action was on going.)

Doa ga shimete arimashita.
The door was in the state of "closed" for a purpose.

[Kirakira1232]

Do you differentiate "~ga suki" and "~o suki" in the same way, too?:(

wo suki versus ga suki? :?

[grapefruit]

wo suki versus ga suki? :?
Right. Predominantly younger generations started to use ~ o suki, whereas the older generations always used ~ga suki.

[Glenn]

See the ウルフルズ song バンザイ:

イエイ、きみを好きでよかった
このままずっと、ずっと、死ぬまでハッピー
バンザイ、きみに会えてよかった
このままずっと、ずっと、ラララ二人で

Great song by the way. Also see ええねん. You can find them both on the toob. :-)

[Kirakira1232]

Wow, I have always known it as ~ga suki. I havent come across ~wo suki before. Wow learn something new everyday.

[Toritoribe]

Could this be a generational thing?:( My grammar is at odds with wo + ~te arimasu. Simple google searches suggest I'm too old.:(
Just my opinion.

窓が開けてあります。(Mado ga akete arimasu.)
This sentence simply denotes the window is in the state of "opened" for a purpose.

窓を開けてあります。(Mado o akete arimasu.)
The doer(opener) might be the speaker.

But it probably depends more on the context, the type of the verb, what the object is, etc.

Right. Predominantly younger generations started to use ~ o suki, whereas the older generations always used ~ga suki.
Interesting! I never thought of that. を好き(O suki) is quit natural for me.
I just searched in some novels by 夏目漱石 and 森鴎外 on 青空文庫 (http://www.aozora.gr.jp/), indeed they NEVER used を好き at all, while they used を好く(o suku; not the na-adjective but the verb,) though.

See the ウルフルズ song バンザイ:
イエイ、きみを好きでよかった
このままずっと、ずっと、死ぬまでハッピー
バンザイ、きみに会えてよかった
このままずっと、ずっと、ラララ二人で
Great song by the way. Also see ええねん. You can find them both on the toob. :-)
Yep. Great song!:-)I sung this in my cousin's wedding reception.:bluush:
バンザイ～好きでよかった～
uzExw9cW7mU

EDIT:
きみを好きでよかった

In this sentence, the particle "o" would be unconsciously (or consciously) selected to avoid being misunderstood, because きみが好きでよかった could be interpreted "kimi" as the subject of the claus, i.e., "I'm glad you love (someone/thing.)"

彼は君が好きだ。(Kare wa kimi ga suki da.)
彼は君を好きだ。(Kare wa kimi o suki da.)
彼が君を好きだ。(Kare ga kimi o suki da.)

These are same meaning; "he loves you." The last one emphasizes "kare", though.


彼が君を好きなのは知ってる。(Kare ga kimi o sukina no wa shitteru.)
彼が君を好きなのを知ってる。(Kare ga kimi o sukina no o shitteru.)
彼は君が好きなのは知ってる。(Kare wa kimi ga sukina no wa shitteru.)(a bit awkward)
彼は君が好きなのを知ってる。(Kare wa kimi ga sukina no o shitteru.)

The first two sentences mean "I know that he loves you," however, the last two would mean "he knows that you love (someone/thing.)"

This ambiguity might be the reason that the objective particle "ga" is hardly used in subordinate clauses.

[Glenn]

Couldn't any confusion be cleared up by adding のこと? Also, how awkward would it sound? For example: 彼が君のことが好きだ.

[undrentide]

Couldn't any confusion be cleared up by adding のこと? Also, how awkward would it sound? For example: 彼が君のことが好きだ.

To me 君のことが part is OK but 彼が sounds odd in this particular sentence.
Maybe because が emphasizes its preceeding word, and two が within onsentence somewhat conflict each other...
彼は君のことが好きだ would be fine.

[grapefruit]

To me 君のことが part is OK but 彼が sounds odd in this particular sentence.
Maybe because が emphasizes its preceeding word, and two が within onsentence somewhat conflict each other...
彼は君のことが好きだ would be fine.

I agree. The only possible situation I can come up with with 彼が君のことが好き is when "I" learned that someone likes me and get an answer to the question "who, did you say, is the person who likes me?"

[Toritoribe]

Couldn't any confusion be cleared up by adding のこと? Also, how awkward would it sound? For example: 彼が君のことが好きだ.
Ah, that remainds me, I once read Glenn-san's post about a function of こと "to clarify the object is the target of an emotion" very interestingly.:-)

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8037

The linked pages in the post somehow can't be opened now, though.:?

As already pointed out, 彼が君のことが好きだ sounds a bit odd also to me. The only acceptable interpretation would be grapefruit-san's one.

彼が君のことが好きなのは知ってる。
彼が君のことが好きなのを知ってる。
彼は君のことが好きなのは知ってる。
彼は君のことが好きなのを知ってる。
or
彼が君のことが好きだと知ってる。
彼は君のことが好きだと知ってる。

In these sentences, こと indeed has the function to clarify that が is the objective particle, however, there still exists another ambiguity. Except the first one, the rest could be interpreted as 彼が/は知ってる. So, to clarify the meaning, I might put 読点 when writing, or change the order of the words when talking.
e.g.
彼は、君のことが好きだと知ってる。
君のことが好きだと、彼は知ってる。
彼は君のことが好きだと、(僕は)知ってる。

Anyway, to use を好き seems the easiest way to me.:relief:

[Glenn]

Ah, that remainds me, I once read Glenn-san's post about a function of こと "to clarify the object is the target of an emotion" very interestingly.:-)

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8037

The linked pages in the post somehow can't be opened now, though.:?

Yeah, access has been forbidden for a few days now. It's a bit annoying. :sick:

Oh yeah, I didn't actually write that. It was someone else. I was just copying and pasting and providing the source. I guess the way I wrote that post is a bit misleading. :relief:

Anyway, to use を好き seems the easiest way to me.:relief:

I guess that's why it seems to have gained so much traction these past few years.

Thanks for the examples and explanations, guys!