Dealing with condescension

[NightClover]

In my past, I have encountered Japanese who told me that their language was too difficult to learn and that I should just give up. They insisted that I always speak English with them. In the end, I came away feeling used....

I would not think twice about forgetting about these individuals. However I have met a particular Japanese woman who says the same thing (it's too hard, forget it) and even when I use Japanese with her, she ignores me for the most part and eventually switches to English. She does not encourage me to learn more. She seems frustrated with me. And quite frankly I am frustrated with her. I am wondering: What should I do? Have any of you been in a similar situation and ended up saving the relationship? This is only a friendship and I think she's a really nice person, but it is like we are "butting heads" because we both want to learn a language but it is the opposite language (our native languages)!!

Have any of you heard of this happening before? Are such relationships doomed?

[grapefruit]

I don't have any personal experience, but in Japan there is this discourse among common people that Japanese is unique among world languages and quite different from many languages. This must make them feel that learning Japanese is difficult for foreigners.

[NightClover]

In other countries (particularly Latin America), I would always love it when a native-speaker would engage me in a complicated conversation, even though the speaker knew that I couldn't understand everything that was said. They would treat me like I COULD understand.

That strongly encouraged me to learn their language. It also felt great. I felt accepted to some degree.

I have never had that warm experience with a Japanese (who wasn't a teacher), even when I throw out some Japanese phrases and tried to engage them. I wish it would happen already.

Then again, Latin Americans tend to be talkative and very, very friendly. I never heard a Latin American tell me that Spanish is too hard, lol. Sigh. Latin America is beautiful, it's nice there. Sometimes I wonder why I am learning Japanese when I already found a foreign language and a place and people that I really appreciate.

[ASHIKAGA]

If I were to engage in a real conversation with someone, I would choose the language both of us understand. I don't think I would enjoy the converstion very much if I knew the other person did not fully understand what I was saying. I would get very frustrated especially if I were trying to really get my points across.

The situation that you have described about you and this Japanese friend of yours is a bit different, though. You want to practice Japanese with her and she wants to practice English with you. You, a student of Japanese, are dissapointed because here she is, a native Japanese speaker, and she doesn't want to speak Japanese with you. I think she, who is studying English, is thinking the same thing. There you are, a native English speaker, yet you don't want to speak English with her.

Although I have said at the beginning that I would prefer using the language both parties could understand, if I were with a friend who wanted to practice Japanese by speaking it with me, I would. Sure, it might take twice as long to convey to each other what each of us are trying to say, but that's what being a pal is about, no?

Having a real, everyday conversation and having a language exchange/practice session are two different things, but as one's language ability improves, those two things slowly start to overlap. I have a few friends who are native English speakers who have been studying Japanese. At the beginning, we would have small chit chats in Japanese but we mostly communicated in English as there was so much we could say with what little Japanese they knew (a few phrases here and there do not make a conversation.). Soon, though, more and more Japanese were mixed in. Now, we just switch between the two randomly.

I would suggest you explain to her that you really want to speak Japanese wit her. If she were a friend, I think she should understand and do that for you provided that you do the same for her.

Please do not let those who say "Japanese is too hard" discourage you. I know it is true that many people have that notion of Japanese being too complex for non-natives. The only way they would change their views is by being exposed to more non-natives who speak fluent Japanese. I really hope you keep at it and be one of them.

Lastly, I would like to plug our own Japanese Section on this forum. Please participate as we would like to see more members posting in Japanese.:wave:

[Chidoriashi]

Umm, despite hearing about some Japanese people having a superiority complex about their language, I have never, ever had somebody tell me to "give up" it is "too hard for foreigners to learn". Direct comments like that seem very non-Japanese like to me.
I say ignore them, there are plenty of Japanese out there that would be more than willing to help you learn their language.

[NightClover]

The only way they would change their views is by being exposed to more non-natives who speak fluent Japanese.


Aren't there plenty of non-natives who speak fluent Japanese? Sure Japanese is not the most popular language in the world, but the notion that attitudes would change if just more non-natives spoke it seems false to me.

Correct me if I am wrong (I am not Japanese), but the real problem seems to be a culture that insinuates that the language is difficult and unique. Change the culture, and the attitudes would change along with it. So I guess the bottom line is this: How does this culture ever change?

[pipokun]

I've read somewhere that your government orders your specialists to master the Japanese longer than the those who specialize in other European languages.

Maybe it is good for you to ask CIA or the Department of State for more accurate info.
Needless to say, it all depends on your ability. My friend took an Italian course, actually she is now in Italy, as her third (or the forth if I may include the Japanese) language when I had a difficult time to say "bonjour" in French.

[grapefruit]

During the colonial era prior to 1945, Japanese―at least among those who conceived colonial language policy―seem to have agreed upon that non-Japanese Asians could learn their language and culture if instruction is appropriately provided. But, it is also true that Japanese military leaders neglected advancing their cipher technology, assuming that Americans would have a hard time mastering the Japanese language, even if the code was broken.

[Mycernius]

During the colonial era prior to 1945, Japanese―at least among those who conceived colonial language policy―seem to have agreed upon that non-Japanese Asians could learn their language and culture if instruction is appropriately provided. But, it is also true that Japanese military leaders neglected advancing their cipher technology, assuming that Americans would have a hard time mastering the Japanese language, even if the code was broken.
Quite ironic really when the US used Navajo in their communications. If I recall the Japanese never did "crack the code".
Linky (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm)

[Azuma_Fujin]

Having a real, everyday conversation and having a language exchange/practice session are two different things, but as one's language ability improves, those two things slowly start to overlap

I agree with Ashikaga on this and everything else that he said. It seems like you two want to learn each others language, well why don't you just let the conversation flow? If you can't do that, just make a date that one day you meet up you will speak japanese and another time you meet up you will speak english. That way both people are satisfied and no one is missing out on speaking the language they want to speak.

With my friends our language has become an amalgamation. My friends sometimes say "it's so hot desu", just because they want to speak japanese with me but also want to use their english. Let the conversation flow and you will find that it becomes easier to mix the two together, don't get so uptight about it, because you will probably have her feeling 気持ち悪い and the friendship might go sour because of it. Just relax, take it easy, and do what comes naturally. :)

[Pachipro]

In my past, I have encountered Japanese who told me that their language was too difficult to learn and that I should just give up. They insisted that I always speak English with them. In the end, I came away feeling used....Have any of you heard of this happening before? Are such relationships doomed?


The Japanese will usually tell you that their language is too difficult for a foreigner to learn as they perceive their own language to be very difficult. The truth of the matter is, that since they (Japanese) have such a difficult time learning a foreign language (and it does not have to be English), they think all foreigners must have the same difficulty when learning the Japanese language and thus, say that to you. I have heard it on more than one occassion while I lived in Japan, but I did not let that hinder me from learning their language which I thought was very easy. And, no, such relationships are not doomed. It depends on the person you are with. If he/she truly loves you and desires to be with you, a compromise can always be achieved I believe.


The situation that you have described about you and this Japanese friend of yours is a bit different, though. You want to practice Japanese with her and she wants to practice English with you. You, a student of Japanese, are dissapointed because here she is, a native Japanese speaker, and she doesn't want to speak Japanese with you. I think she, who is studying English, is thinking the same thing. There you are, a native English speaker, yet you don't want to speak English with her.

Although I have said at the beginning that I would prefer using the language both parties could understand, if I were with a friend who wanted to practice Japanese by speaking it with me, I would. Sure, it might take twice as long to convey to each other what each of us are trying to say, but that's what being a pal is about, no?

I think you "hit the nail on the head" in your answer ASHIKAGA as this particular woman wants to speak and learn English I believe. Therefore, she falls back on the typical answer of, "Japanese is too difficult and you should speak English" as the OP's Japanese is probably not that good and she really wants to learn English.

However, NightClover, you should stick by your guns and not let yourself be intimidated by this person. Find some common ground with her where you both could commuinicate and learn from each other.

In my own case, when I first met my Japanese wife she was not all that fluent in English, while I was fairly fluent in Japanese and she was an English major while in school. Therefore, I told her that we would only communicate in English as I knew more Japanese than she did English. She quickly improved and today we speak only English in the US as speaking Japanese to each other is just too weird. We do it on occassion here in the US and speak 100% Japanese when we are in Japan as that is what is "natural" for us.

In your case, NightClover, I believe there must be a meeting point somewhere as you each want to learn the others' language. If she insists, IMO, then she is just using you for your language ability and for whatever other "assets" you may be able to provide her.

Personally, I have been in all three relationships. I have been with Japanese women who wanted me only to speak English, and I have been in relationships where whey did not want, nor desire to, speak or learn English, and I have been in a couple where it did not matter as we both desired to learn from each other. I leave it to you to decide which I married.

The point is you must both have a mutual understanding and if it is both learning the others' language than that should be understood from the start. If it is not understood then you are both using each other for personal gain and there is no love in the relationship. Therefore, yes, it is probably doomed from the start.

IMO a relationship should be first started with the heart and proceed from there as, when there is love, language does not matter and can be conquered in the course of the relationship.

Just my opinion as others may beg to differ.

[NightClover]

I think you "hit the nail on the head" in your answer ASHIKAGA as this particular woman wants to speak and learn English I believe. Therefore, she falls back on the typical answer of, "Japanese is too difficult and you should speak English" as the OP's Japanese is probably not that good and she really wants to learn English.


Exactly. My Japanese is not nearly as good as her English. It's a problem because I would love for her to show me some things. We can learn from each other, like you said. But she seems to have a one-track mind with the English speaking, as if she is on a "mission".

Sometimes I wonder if I have it all wrong. I mean, she is not my teacher. Other times, though, it gets me mad when I think about it.

[himeji]

Hmmm....

I'm relatively new to all things Japanese (well, actually, a very long gap between my original interest and now) and the one over-riding impression I have of the Japanese is their 'never say die' attitude to anything.

I'm really surprised a Japanese would advocate giving up on anything!

It's one of the things (and there are many others) I really like about them.

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How do you get blank lines in text here?

[ASHIKAGA]

Aren't there plenty of non-natives who speak fluent Japanese? Sure Japanese is not the most popular language in the world, but the notion that attitudes would change if just more non-natives spoke it seems false to me.

Well, I did not say that not too many non-natives spoke fluent Japanese in my post. What I did say is, not too many Japanese people have been in contact with non-natives who are fluent in japanese.

I have only met maybe 2 non-natives in all my years in japan with whom I could have a "normal" conversations without me choosing words carefully so the other would understand or edit myself so what I say would not have any overly colloquial expressions, etc.

Even in the media, I know of less than a handful non-natives who speak fluent Japanese. Take some of the Japanese TV personalities that are non-native speakers. Most of them are asked to be on TV for the novelty. What is so novel about them? They speak fluent Japanese. Of course, there are those who make a living by speaking "funny" Japanese, too.

My point is that it is not everyday we come in contact with foreigners who speak fluent Japanese. I KNOW plenty of them are out there. Sorry if I was not clear on that.

[NightClover]

My point is that it is not everyday we come in contact with foreigners who speak fluent Japanese. I KNOW plenty of them are out there. Sorry if I was not clear on that.
That's strange. You know, it is not everyday that I come in contact with Russians who speak fluent English. Yet I have never thought of English as being "too hard" for them to learn... Why is that?

Maybe it is because I grew up in a multicultural & multiracial environment? But from what I hear, Japanese society is also diverse to some extent. Maybe the difference is that I grew up in a culture that "embraced" diversity and didn't stick English-speaking Russians on TV for the novelty. :blush:

[JimmySeal]

Well, I did not say that not too many non-natives spoke fluent Japanese in my post. What I did say is, not too many Japanese people have been in contact with non-natives who are fluent in japanese.

Yup, I can vouch for this.

I think one can objectively say that Japanese is difficult. It has a huge everyday vocabulary with many homophones, made possible by the use of kanji, which again are difficult to learn.
And it is unique in the sense that it is in a language family all by itself, and the way its writing system is used is very different from any other language.
But that is not to say that it is impossible for a non-native to learn (it's obviously not) or that anyone should give up, and that's not to say that it does not bear any similarities to other languages (it does).

Regarding your original question, I think you need to evaluate how much of a friendship it really is. I can sympathize with her being irritated if you are trying to use broken Japanese with her all the time when you can both speak English just fine, and if that's the only problem then I would recommend backing off the Japanese a bit when you're talking to her. Of course, if the only reason (or the main reason) she's associating with you is to practice her English, then that's another matter.

[epigene]

I concur with Ashikaga.

In my case, the count is less. I've lived in Japan most of my life (I'm probably older than the parents of many members here) and have never met a non-native whom I regard to be "fluent," excepting those extraordinary persons on TV and the few fluent writers here on JREF and elsewhere on the Internet.

In person, I can say maybe less than 10 persons I met were on the conversational level or a little better.

[NightClover]

Well I am American and over the course of my life, I have met about 10 speakers of Japanese who were non-native and fluent... in the USA. Exactly how fluent were they? That's hard for me to gauge, as you can imagine.

I guess it all depends on the crowds you hang out with... In retrospect, I don't want this to become a comparison of cultures and which one is better. So I apologize for my last post. I guess I just feel frustrated with my situation. Peace.

[grapefruit]

That's strange. You know, it is not everyday that I come in contact with Russians who speak fluent English. Yet I have never thought of English as being "too hard" for them to learn... Why is that?
Maybe it is because I grew up in a multicultural & multiracial environment? But from what I hear, Japanese society is also diverse to some extent. Maybe the difference is that I grew up in a culture that "embraced" diversity and didn't stick English-speaking Russians on TV for the novelty. :blush:

Russian and English belong to the same language group, the Indo-European language family. You can find cognate words and similar grammar structures between the two languages. Japanese, on the other hand, does not belong to the Indo-European language. It possibly has a tie to the Altaic language family, but the connection between Japanese and the Altaic language family has not been well-established, yet. Some linguists take the view that Japanese is an isolate language, not belonging to any language family spoken in the world (Technically the Okinawan language and the Japanese make the Japanese language family).


Well I am American and over the course of my life, I have met about 10 speakers of Japanese who were non-native and fluent... in the USA. Exactly how fluent were they? That's hard for me to gauge, as you can imagine.
Generally speaking, American people expect a really high level of proficiency from non-native speakers of English. To be recognized as a "fluent" speaker of English in the US, one needs to have a near native command of the language. When it comes to Americans' speaking foreign languages themselves, however, they lower their standards. Americans who can speak decent Japanese but do not reach a near native proficiency level will probably be considered as "fluent" in the US.

[alantin]

In my past, I have encountered Japanese who told me that their language was too difficult to learn and that I should just give up. They insisted that I always speak English with them. In the end, I came away feeling used....

I think I would just "give them their own medicine back"!
I bet they just don't think of how it feels to be treated this way so why not just tell them that English is too hard for a Japanese person and insist that they should just give it up and speak Japanese to you.
Perhaps they'll learn eventually..



even when I use Japanese with her, she ignores me for the most part and eventually switches to English. She does not encourage me to learn more. She seems frustrated with me. And quite frankly I am frustrated with her.

In this case too. Why don't you ask how she would feel if you told her that it is impossible for a Japanese person to learn English and ignored everything she says in English.
How about deciding days when it is time for Japanese and days when it is time for English!


I really haven't met this kind of attitude. I even had a couple of old guys speak to me fast in Kansai dialect and then expected me to understand them when I asked for directions! :mad:

While I was in Japan I didn't have much courage to speak Japanese when I knew that there was a person present who could do well in English.

About a month ago we had a girl, who translated for us a couple of times in Japan, visit us here in Finland.
I had previously only spoken English with her and still mail her in English but interestingly while here I ended up speaking 90% Japanese with her from the beginning!
Boy, was I glad to be able to use my Japanese after a long while! :-)

[Chidoriashi]

The Japanese will usually tell you that their language is too difficult for a foreigner to learn

Pachipro> This really surprises me. I just cannot even see a regular Japanese person saying something like to a foreigner (despite thinking it). Then again I have only know Japan on a personal level since after this millennium started. Back in the 70s and 80s when you were here i suppose people may have acted different.

[Charles Barkley]

Original Poster: your info seems to indicate you live in America. What right do you have living in America to expect this girl to speak to you in anything but English? If her English is much better than your Japanese and she came all the way to an English speaking country to presumably practice, your expectations of her are out of line.

Sadly, however, if you move to Japan, you will encounter many individuals such as yourself who will continue trying to practice English on you. You will meet many individuals who will reply in broken English to your decent Japanese. It is very discouraging but ultimately something you will have to put up with if you are living here and are white (if you are an asian american, you're in luck). That one day you will have karma on your side when you come to Japan, please stop pestering the poor Japanese exchange students (or whatever she is).

I guess I am the reverse ashikaga because I have met far more foreigners with excellent Japanese here in Japan than Japanese with excellent English. You could build an army of excellent Japanese speakers from the koreans at my university (Waseda) alone.

[Mike Cash]

I concur with Ashikaga.

In my case, the count is less. I've lived in Japan most of my life (I'm probably older than the parents of many members here) and have never met a non-native whom I regard to be "fluent," excepting those extraordinary persons on TV and the few fluent writers here on JREF and elsewhere on the Internet.

In person, I can say maybe less than 10 persons I met were on the conversational level or a little better.


I went to 名草巌島神社　way back in the hills in the rural area of Ashikaga recently and on the trails crossed paths with a retired gentleman who spoke to me. I learned that he is retired and as a volunteer activity goes around once a month or so to make an official inspection of designated cultural treasures and such things. We stood and talked probably 15 or 20 minutes.

He told me I was the first foreigner he had ever talked to in his life.

Something that many foreigners living in Japan might find hard to believe is that there are lots of Japanese people who have never spoken with a foreigner.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Exactly. My Japanese is not nearly as good as her English. It's a problem because I would love for her to show me some things. We can learn from each other, like you said. But she seems to have a one-track mind with the English speaking, as if she is on a "mission".

Sometimes I wonder if I have it all wrong. I mean, she is not my teacher. Other times, though, it gets me mad when I think about it.
I assume that you're both college students.

It sounds like she's there on a mission to learn English and to hell with anything that gets in her way. I met a number of people like that when I was in college. If your friendship is based on language exchange and it's completely one-sided, I say try to find a new friend. Just don't be too abrupt, as the Japanese community can be rather tight-knit at foreign schools.

[FrustratedDave]

He told me I was the first foreigner he had ever talked to in his life.

Something that many foreigners living in Japan might find hard to believe is that there are lots of Japanese people who have never spoken with a foreigner.
And this is something people should realise before they go off on a tangent and start to catagorise all Japanese as rude and inconsiderate.

As for the OP, I think Ashikaga hit the nail on the head.