Taking a positive view of the Greater East Asia War

[Astroboy]

The head of the Japanese air force is to be sacked after saying the country was not an aggressor in World War II

Gen Tamogami, 60, is chief of staff of Japan's Air Self-Defence Force.

In his essay on the theme of "true views of modern history", he wrote: "Even now, there are many people who think that our country's 'aggression' caused unbearable suffering to the countries of Asia during the Greater East Asia War. "But we need to realise that many Asian countries take a positive view of the Greater East Asia War.

"It is certainly a false accusation to say that our country was an aggressor nation."

World War II in the Asia-Pacific region is referred to as the Greater East Asia War by those who saw it as Asian nations seeking independence from Western powers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7702374.stm


Although he was sacked, History interpretation has gradually been changing as the world post-war regime also changes. From my point of view, it is a part of normalization of Japan.

:wave:

[Astroboy]

Japan Fires General Who Said a U.S. ‘Trap’ Led to the Pearl Harbor Attack
TOKYO — A high-ranking Japanese military official was dismissed Friday for writing an essay stating that the United States had ensnared Japan into World War II, denying that Japan had waged wars of aggression in Asia and justifying Japanese colonialism.
.................................................. .................................................. ..........
By BYT Tokyo Correspondent Norimistu Onishi
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/01/world/asia/01tokyo.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

NYT is always interesting ..... Its Tokyo correspondent Norimitsu Onishi (sounds like a Japanese name, but in fact he is Korean Canadian) desparately react. It is the time of internet, and thus nobody can keep closing the lid of history. :)

[otoko]

NYT is always interesting ..... Its Tokyo correspondent Norimitsu Onishi (sounds like a Japanese name, but in fact he is Korean Canadian) desparately react. It is the time of internet, and thus nobody can keep closing the lid of history. :)

Who cares if he is Korean Canadian? He is the Tokyo correspondent. Who cares where he is from or what ethinicity he is or what his name is?

Japanese historians have criticized the accuracy of the essay.

Tamogami is an idiot. If one is going to be nationalistic at least get your facts right. Actually I think his nationalism is a sham. One should be able to be proud of your country despite what sins it has committed in the past. Men like Tamogami cannot love their country unless they can convince themselves that Japan has done no wrong. He also cannot write a proper essay.

[Astroboy]

Who cares if he is Korean Canadian? He is the Tokyo correspondent. Who cares where he is from or what ethinicity he is or what his name is?


Many cares.

Another article , LETTER FROM ASIA: Why Japan Seems Content to Be Run by One Party provoked an official objection statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan for being "an incorrect article."

His article on December 17, 2006, Japan Rightists Fan Fury Over North Korea Abductions, was also criticized by Kyoko Nakayama, Tokyo Special adviser to the Japanese Prime Minister on Abduction. Thomas H. Snitch, a former professor of American University and the president of Little Falls Associates, Inc. also mentioned that Onishi's coverage on Japan's effort to deal with the issue of the North Korean abductions of Japanese is based on his political bias. Some Japanese conservatives claim that Onishi is a naturalized Japanese citizen of Korean descent. :blush:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norimitsu_Onishi

[otoko]

Many cares.
Another article , LETTER FROM ASIA: Why Japan Seems Content to Be Run by One Party provoked an official objection statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan for being "an incorrect article."
His article on December 17, 2006, Japan Rightists Fan Fury Over North Korea Abductions, was also criticized by Kyoko Nakayama, Tokyo Special adviser to the Japanese Prime Minister on Abduction. Thomas H. Snitch, a former professor of American University and the president of Little Falls Associates, Inc. also mentioned that Onishi's coverage on Japan's effort to deal with the issue of the North Korean abductions of Japanese is based on his political bias. Some Japanese conservatives claim that Onishi is a naturalized Japanese citizen of Korean descent. :blush:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norimitsu_Onishi


Yes conservatives and rightists care. Though that is not objective criticism. The New York Times is left leaning. If you had a full understanding of English you would realize that your Wikipedia link does very little to back your argument.

SOME Japanese CONSERVATIVES CLAIM that Onishi is a naturalized Japanese citizen of Korean descent. Though there is no proof of this in your link. On the contrary it states in your link that Onishi was born in Japan and his family immigrated to Canada at four.

[Astroboy]

Yes conservatives and rightists care. Though that is not objective criticism. The New York Times is left leaning. If you had a full understanding of English you would realize that your Wikipedia link does very little to back your argument.
SOME Japanese CONSERVATIVES CLAIM that Onishi is a naturalized Japanese citizen of Korean descent. Though there is no proof of this in your link. On the contrary it states in your link that Onishi was born in Japan and his family immigrated to Canada at four.

Then how about the below link - Wiki in Japanese about "Norimitsu Onishi" ?
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8E%E3%83%AA%E3%83%9F%E3%83%84%E3%83%BB%E3%8 2%AA%E3%82%AA%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B7
If you had a full understanding of Japanese you would realize that your English Wikipedia link does very little to back your argument.

Obviously he is quite biased, sounds like a Korean agent. Plus IF you Google his name in Japanese, you can see many blogs & comments criticising him. In addition, he has NEVER shown up at public, or in Japanese newspaper, symposium, etc. WHY? He is writing biased reports about Japan, without hearing public opinions. WHY?

He was born in Ichikawa-shi, Chiba, where one of major Korean community in Kanto was located. WHY doesn't he tell his origin/background when his family lived in Japan ? Family registration record is not open in Japan. So IF Onishi is not KOrean, he should tell his registar background as many people are telling.

Or He cannot? :blush:

In Japan, there are MANY Koreans, using Japanese names. and SOME work for North Korea, helped North Korean spies abduct Japanese, smuggling drugs, spreading fake money, committing crimes as Yakuza, etc.

So I am very much looking forward to "Norimitsu Onishi" showing up in public, ttelling his backgorund, not hiding behind "New York Times". :blush:

[Astroboy]

Tamogami told the committee he was not concerned about any negative repercussions from his essay, telling "People accume me of causing unrest among the public, but a recent (internet) survey said 58% of the people support me".
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081112a1.html

So, majority of Japanese support him as far as internet survey goes.

[grapefruit]

Tamogami told the committee he was not concerned about any negative repercussions from his essay, telling "People accume me of causing unrest among the public, but a recent (internet) survey said 58% of the people support me".
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081112a1.html
So, majority of Japanese support him as far as internet survey goes.

I liked his argument in his essay that Japan constructed universities in its colonial territories.

[Adulado]

I liked his argument in his essay that Japan constructed universities in its colonial territories.

I don't know about universities but in Korea schools, transportation, hospitals etc were already being built by protestant missionaries (and also western ideas being introduced with it) with the permission of Empress Myungsung.

[caster51]

I don't know about universities but in Korea schools, transportation, hospitals etc were already being built by protestant missionaries (and also western ideas being introduced with it) with the permission of Empress Myungsung.

I dont think so.
according to so many books that were written by foreigners.

what scool they had?
the korean education at that time was
" China is our master. china is the greatest. The Christianity is barbarian's religion."

[grapefruit]

I don't know about universities but in Korea schools, transportation, hospitals etc were already being built by protestant missionaries (and also western ideas being introduced with it) with the permission of Empress Myungsung.

I'm not saying that building schools were good. It is the argument he made in his essay regarding Imperial Universities built in the territories. Please read the original essay on the following link before you make a hasty comment .

http://www.apa.co.jp/book_report/images/2008jyusyou_saiyuusyu_english.pdf

[Adulado]

I dont think so.
according to so many books that were written by foreigners.
what scool they had?
the korean education at that time was
" China is our master. china is the greatest. The Christianity is barbarian's religion."
Do you have any source to back your claims? I'm quoting what is written in various western sources by western writers about Korean history. It was Queen Min who allowed the introduction of Christianism and western values and also education as long as it didn't affect relations with other countries and society per se. She was a stumbling stone to the Japanese since she didn't want break ties with qina and was pro-gradual modernization thus an obstacle to the Japanese expansionism which subsequently led to the Japanese ruffians assassinate her.

www(dot)apa(dot)co(dot)jp/book_report/ima...yu_english.pdf


So Korea, Mongolia, China, Tiwan, Japan should unite just like EU, eh? No, thanks.

[grapefruit]

So Korea, Mongolia, China, Tiwan, Japan should unite just like EU, eh? No, thanks.

I never mentioned his other arguments. I just liked his argument regarding Imperial Universities built in the territories. In fact, his argument in the latter half of his essay sounds none sense to me.

[Astroboy]

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/images/photos2008/nn20081202a1a.jpg
Tamogami says views shared in Diet, SDF
"Freedom of speech in the SDF is being suppressed, but there are many who support" such views, Tamogami said.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081202a1.html

I bekieve that he did nothing wrong as Japan is not a tyranny.
Normalization of Japan is ongoing. :-)

[otoko]

It is not "normalization". Tamogami's essay was filled with mistakes.

In regards to others in the LDP and SDF sharing Tamogami's sentiments, that still does not justify Japan's actions.

Japan waging war was only in Japan's benefit not to the benefit of the countries it invaded. It was expansionism. There really is no moral argument justifying Japan's actions. One could not make an argument for doing today something similar. They were responsible for much death and destruction.

Right wingers like Tamogami reference the writings of other rightwingers. That is not proof. It isn't academic, it is not rigorous research.

[Astroboy]

That is not proof. It isn't academic, it is not rigorous research.

Are you academic? How can you be sure?

History interpretation often change as more new documents/evidence are found as the time pass. Thus it's not permanent. :wave:

[grapefruit]

It is not "normalization". Tamogami's essay was filled with mistakes.
In regards to others in the LDP and SDF sharing Tamogami's sentiments, that still does not justify Japan's actions.
Japan waging war was only in Japan's benefit not to the benefit of the countries it invaded. It was expansionism. There really is no moral argument justifying Japan's actions. One could not make an argument for doing today something similar. They were responsible for much death and destruction.
Right wingers like Tamogami reference the writings of other rightwingers. That is not proof. It isn't academic, it is not rigorous research.

It is still the same in today's world. The US claims that the invasion of Iraq was to free the people in Iraq. China claims that the invasion of Tibet was to liberate the people in Tibet.

[otoko]

Are you academic? How can you be sure?
History interpretation often change as more new documents/evidence are found as the time pass. Thus it's not permanent. :wave:

WW2 has been researched over the past several decades. I am sure of that. Leading scholars from Japan and around the world. Peer reviewed research. While details such as numbers do differ there already is a consensus as to what transpired.

Historical interpretation has more to do with selecting facts and arguments to suit your worldview and ideology as Astroboy and Tamogami have been so kind to demonstate.

[caster51]

WW2 has been researched over the past several decades. I am sure of that. Leading scholars from Japan and around the world. Peer reviewed research. While details such as numbers do differ there already is a consensus as to what transpired

Where?.................

[otoko]

It is still the same in today's world. The US claims that the invasion of Iraq was to free the people in Iraq. China claims that the invasion of Tibet was to liberate the people in Tibet.


America claimed that Iraq had links to terrorits and had weapons of mass destruction. Both turned out to be wrong and it was an unneccessary war.


Tibet is not as clear cut as you say. Both sides do have merits to their arguments. But the merits are lost because both have taken extreme positions that contain misinformation in their arguments.

Astroboy somehow wants to justify Japan's actions. They are not justifiable. What is the moral argument? In today's world is expansionism justifiable? Is invading another country and subjugating it justifiable? These countries had not choice. Democratic governments were not installed. How is having Nazi Germany as an ally justifiable. Diplomatically they can say that they did not approve of the treatment of the Jews but they enabled that behavior by becoming Germany's ally.

I also find it ironic that men like Tamogami and Astroboy(If you are a man) try to justify Japan's actions and are free to state their opinions but that if they lived under the rule of Imperial Japan they would not have been guaranteed freedom of speech. In this day and age would it be reasonable to have had Nazi Germany in power with their ambitions of Aryan domination and the subjugation of Europe as well as the Japanese Empire with their subjugation of Asia. I guess if you answer yes, then I expect you to lie down and roll over if for example North Korea invaded Japan and made Japanese take Korean names and use Japan industry to further North Korea's empire. Awesome!! :wave:

[caster51]

In today's world is expansionism justifiable?

you are talking about Today's value?
It might be arrogant if it says by today's sense of values.
the poblem is what value was at that time as a history....
at first, most Japanese does not justify it with today's value.
however it is not true history..
How about USA? how about Iraq? how about China?
they are still doing...

as for positive view, Japan lost war, All colonies were liberated as a result

[Astroboy]

America claimed that Iraq had links to terrorits and had weapons of mass destruction. Both turned out to be wrong and it was an unneccessary war.
Tibet is not as clear cut as you say. Both sides do have merits to their arguments. But the merits are lost because both have taken extreme positions that contain misinformation in their arguments.
Astroboy somehow wants to justify Japan's actions. They are not justifiable. What is the moral argument? In today's world is expansionism justifiable? Is invading another country and subjugating it justifiable? These countries had not choice. Democratic governments were not installed. How is having Nazi Germany as an ally justifiable. Diplomatically they can say that they did not approve of the treatment of the Jews but they enabled that behavior by becoming Germany's ally.
I also find it ironic that men like Tamogami and Astroboy(If you are a man) try to justify Japan's actions and are free to state their opinions but that if they lived under the rule of Imperial Japan they would not have been guaranteed freedom of speech. In this day and age would it be reasonable to have had Nazi Germany in power with their ambitions of Aryan domination and the subjugation of Europe as well as the Japanese Empire with their subjugation of Asia. I guess if you answer yes, then I expect you to lie down and roll over if for example North Korea invaded Japan and made Japanese take Korean names and use Japan industry to further North Korea's empire. Awesome!! :wave:


LOL. Sounds like typical "Korean" :blush: dreaming "victory over Japan" :blush:

Either way, since then, post-war historic fact cearly indicates that Korea is divided, and the people of North are starved to death day by day, and South becomes economic colony of Japan. IF they are a part of Japan, at least they can eat something.

Dream come true ? :p

[otoko]

you are talking about Today's value?
It might be arrogant if it says by today's sense of values.
the poblem is what value was at that time as a history....
at first, most Japanese does not justify it with today's value.
however it is not true history..
How about USA? how about Iraq? how about China?
they are still doing...
as for positive view, Japan lost war, All colonies were liberated as a result

Tamogami's assertions were not true history.

Sure what about America in Iraq or China whenever? Wrong is wrong regardless when, where or who does it. Also because someone else does something wrong is no justification for you to do. Or is it?

LOL. Sounds like typical "Korean" :blush: dreaming "victory over Japan" :blush:
Either way, since then, post-war historic fact cearly indicates that Korea is divided, and the people of North are starved to death day by day, and South becomes economic colony of Japan. IF they are a part of Japan, at least they can eat something.
Dream come true ? :p

You know what is really interesting? When I look at my passport it says I am a Japanese national.

What has Korean dreaming have to do with this since I am not Korean.

Wait you said historic fact didn't you? I guess we have to wait for the day when new evidence comes up so we can reinterpret history. Right?

I bet those Neo Nazis are waiting for the day when something new comes up so that we can reinterpret the Holocaust. Or when something new comes up so we can take a positive view of America's slavery. Yes!

[otoko]

Where?.................
Why don't you go research it? So you are arguing without ever having researched this topic.
What do you want me to put your socks on, hold your hand and feed you. You are an adult, go read.

[caster51]

Tamogami's assertions were not true history.

what part do you indicate?

of course, there are some surely in detail

http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=607447&postcount=18

[caster51]

I also find it ironic that men like Tamogami and Astroboy(If you are a man) try to justify Japan's actions and are free to state their opinions but that if they lived under the rule of Imperial Japan they would not have been guaranteed freedom of speech.

there is no freedom of speech in North korea:blush:
I think freedom of speech is needed even in SDF
However, at least ,tamogami said " Japan was a great country positively" .
who could criticize him at that time..

I bet those Neo Nazis are waiting for the day when something new comes up so that we can reinterpret the Holocaust

what does it have to do with Neo nazi?

[Astroboy]

Tamogami's assertions were not true history.
Sure what about America in Iraq or China whenever? Wrong is wrong regardless when, where or who does it. Also because someone else does something wrong is no justification for you to do. Or is it?

You know what is really interesting? When I look at my passport it says I am a Japanese national.
What has Korean dreaming have to do with this since I am not Korean.
Wait you said historic fact didn't you? I guess we have to wait for the day when new evidence comes up so we can reinterpret history. Right?
I bet those Neo Nazis are waiting for the day when something new comes up so that we can reinterpret the Holocaust. Or when something new comes up so we can take a positive view of America's slavery. Yes!

Please calm down.

I said ..... "Sounds Like", not "Must be" :blush:

[otoko]

there is no freedom of speech in North korea:blush:
I think freedom of speech is needed even in SDF
However, at least ,tamogami said " Japan was a great country positively" .
who could criticize him at that time..
what does it have to do with Neo nazi?

My point is that freedom of speech as guaranteed under the constitution did not exist under Imperial Japan. Tamogami wants to talk about freedom of speech, he defends a regime that would not have allowed him freedom of speech. That is ironic.

It seems that Tamogami does not know that factions within the military between 1930 and 1936 assasinated 4 former and serving Japanese Prime Ministers. Ending party politics. Yet he insinuates that Japan was dragged into war, that they were a victim.

I think Japan is a great country. Tamogami thinks that to be a great country, your country could never have done something wrong. I think a great country would be able to acknowledge what they did wrong.

[Astroboy]

Your country could never have done something wrong...

I think your English sounds strange concerning "you, your, you" if you are Japanese. :okashii:

Either way, histroy interpretation change as the time pass. Plus people's thought also change. Nothing permanent.

[otoko]

I think your English sounds strange concerning "you, your, you" if you are Japanese. :okashii:
Either way, histroy interpretation change as the time pass. Plus people's thought also change. Nothing permanent.

"Your" not referring to you(astroboy) or me. "Your" meaning Tamogami's views of Japan. How do I explain this?

Nothing permanent seems like you just want to avoid having to face histroy unless it suits you.

Reinterpreting history is no reason to dispute the facts of how the war came about and what happened. Tamogami and men like him give misinformation or totally false information to back up their interpretation not of history but to justify that history. It is backwards. You take all available research and then come to a conclusion whether you like it or not. That is the scientific method. If you still want to say it was justified after that, that is just a personal preference, but has no basis in fact. Do you see this?

Anyway you do not have to answer that. I think you have it in your mind to think what you think no matter what.

[Chidoriashi]

The "your" otoko used is another way of saying "one's own"

Great points by the way otoko. I never thought about the "irony" part, but it really is quite funny.

I have a question for you otoko. Do you think men like Tamogami, make the assertions they do in order to save face? Or because their high level of national pride, and defensive personality does not allow them to deal with criticism of Japan well, so they have to reinterpret facts for people (rather than let facts speak for themselves) and deny things, and use tactics to divert attention away from themselves?

Or could it be in order to feel a sense of national pride they have to give themselves reasons to feel they are more virtuous than other countries, rather than be just being able to simply take pride in the many good things their country has accomplished?

[Matthew Ota]

In a nutshell, history belongs to the victors. This is human nature.