Between 上手 and 下手?

[Ryan-]

How do you express a humble degree of skill between 上手　and 下手？ "I'm okay at..."

[Toritoribe]

そこそこ/まあまあ/ある程度/少しは/少しできる

But these are also used as a humble expression of 上手.

日本語は話せますか？
そこそこ話せます。

In reality, the answerer might be able to speak Japanese fluently.

[-Rudel-]

I've heard this before when someone asked my friend how good he was doing at a sport.

少しだけ。

[Ryan-]

Can you use those with the ~が structure?

テニスがそこそこです。
テニスがまあまあです。

[Toritoribe]

They are adverbs, so basically need to be used with verbs/adjectives they are modifying.

テニスがそこそこできます。
テニスがまあまあできます。

テニスはお上手ですか？
まあまあです。(as the omition of できます ＝ まあまあできます)

[katsumoto]

そこそこ/まあまあ/ある程度/少しは/少しできる
But these are also used as a humble expression of 上手.
日本語は話せますか？
そこそこ話せます。
do you mean by そこそこ
that I'm not good nor bad in japanese speaking , in the middle :?:

[AMIGO]

do you mean by そこそこ
that I'm not good nor bad in japanese speaking , in the middle :?:

Maybe you're looking for 先ず先ず 「まずまず」.

MAZUMAZU is an adjetive "NA" like 上手 and 下手, which means "tolerable".

I don't know exactly if you can use it in this case, but it's an idea:

日本語はどうですか。 How is your Japanese?
先ず先ずです。 It's regular.

[Toritoribe]

do you mean by そこそこ
that I'm not good nor bad in japanese speaking , in the middle :?:
Right. You can use そこそこ日本語が話せます. In this particular sentense, そこそこ has a nuance of "relatively well," "somehow fluently."

[dreamer]

I also have a question that goes with the initial one.
How does 得意 fits within the whole 上手-下手 thing?

[osamu_ys]

You should grasp that 得意-不得意 thing is a parallel thing to 上手-下手, and
上手-下手 is used in more objective case/situation than 得意-不得意.

[AMIGO]

How about 得意 -　苦手 as opposite?
Could be OK? :clueless:

[ASHIKAGA]

How about 得意 -　苦手 as opposite?
Could be OK? :clueless:

Yes. You may hear 苦手 used more often than 不得意 as a matter of fact.

[dreamer]

Still, I don't really get the context where this set should be used over the other one.
could anyone provide examples with explanations please?

[ASHIKAGA]

Still, I don't really get the context where this set should be used over the other one.
could anyone provide examples with explanations please?

OK, I will give it a shot.

私は歌が上手です。
私は歌が得意です。

Although the two mean the same thing (I am good at singing), the latter has just a hint of modesty in it. You are not saying flat out that you sing well.
上手/下手 can only be determined by others while you yourself can assess 得意/苦手 about yourself.

Now, having said that, I know some of you say that you hear ppl say all the time 「私は＿＿＿が下手です。」.
While it is a no-no to boast about your singing prowess, it is OK to put yourself down.

Also, only YOU know for real if you really are 得意/苦手 about something. Because even when you find something a piece of cake (得意）、the end result from other ppl's perspectives cannot be always positive. Even if you find something very hard to do (苦手）, chances are you are capable of producing steller results. So, you can use 得意/苦手 only when you are talking about yourself.

Let's say you just performed a very passionate rendition of My Heart Will Go On in front of me. I may compliment you on your singing by saying 「Ｄｒｅａｍｅｒは歌が上手ですね」 but I would NOT say 「Ｄｒｅａｍｅｒは歌が得意ですね」 because I wouldn't know that. All I know is what came out of your mouth sounded good. I wouldn't know if it came easily to you or you had a very hard time making it sound good. You might reply 「どうもありがとう。私はこの歌が得意なんです」 or turn on the Modesty Machine and say 「そんなことないですよ～。　下手だったでしょう？　苦手なんです、歌は。」.


　

[AMIGO]

すごい man!,

I have to thank you for such a complete explanation. Really good.
Thank you!

[Ryan-]

My textbook mentions that 得意 also has the connotation of "specialty", "forté", and more importantly, liking what you're good at. Whereas 苦手 has a connotation of not liking AND being bad at.

[Toritoribe]

My textbook mentions that 得意 also has the connotation of "specialty", "forté", and more importantly, liking what you're good at. Whereas 苦手 has a connotation of not liking AND being bad at.
That's right. In contrast, 上手, 下手 can be used in cases of "to be good at but dislike," "to be bad at but like" respectively.

彼はあんなにゴルフが上手いのに、実はそんなに好きじゃないらしい。
歌は下手だけど、歌うのは好きなんです。(There's a common saying 下手の横好き.)


In addition, 上手/下手 is basically used to express "level of skill," whereas 得意/苦手 is used more for sensuous, subjective, or abstract things.

彼は字(を書くの)が上手です。
彼は数学が得意です。

[Ryan-]

面白い区別ですねえ。。。。　:-)

[dreamer]

Wow awesome explanation !

(Sorry for the delay but I had to work from 7AM to 10PM over the last few weeks)

[Elizabeth]

日本語はたくさん話せるようになりましたか？

If you get asked it like this: Have you reached the point of being able to speak Japanese well? Has your Japanese improved?


And if you think your Japanese ability has improved only so-so:
はい、前よりは話せるようになりました。

少し、上手になりました。are good. :)


I almost got so lost in the fabulous explanations, too, I forgot the original question. ! :cool:

[nhk9]

use the natural answer to this, and the questioner will not ask further

q: nihongo ga hanasemasu ka?
a: ichiou

there are many words that have the word "ude" (wrist) in them. you should learn some of them since they will express what you need.