Particle clarification

[grandkodiak]

I'd like something cleared up with certain particles if anyone has the time. I think I am clear with most of the particles, but I still am confused on when each are appropriate in cases where I think there could be overlap.

Best example I can think of is this: I'm wondering why or if there is a difference in usage between ga and o in sentance structure?

For example, whats the difference in saying "sushi ga tabemasu" and "sushi o tabemasu"?

I'm pretty sure it has to be "o" but only because thats what is written in the examples... but I don't understand why its that way? If you follow... like wouldnt "ga" signify that sushi is what I am talking about, and since there is a very "tabemasu" that it is clear that I eat sushi?

I guess the question really is what is the difference between the direct object (o is needed) to a subject of a sentance (ga is needed)?

Would the difference be like in English if the "ga sentace" would translate into "yes sushi is something that i eat" and "o sentance" being kind of like a bad english sentace "i eat sushi" as in the literal "i am eating sushi right now" but without the proper "tabemashoo" conjugation?

[Aurura]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wrote an explanation, but please see Tommi515's.

- Aurura

[Tomii515]

I'm not 100% sure, so please someone correct mine as well if it's not correct or needs fixing.

First off, generally, "ga"（が） shows that the word before it is the subject. "o"（を） shows that the word before it is the object.

In this particular sentences, here are the meanings:

すしを食べます。　sushi o tabemasu. = I eat sushi. (the word "I" is implied, of course.)
すしが食べます。　sushi ga tabemasu. = The sushi eats it. (and due to the conversation, both you and the listener know exactly what the sushi is eating... even though that's not possible haha)

the verb "taberu"　（食べる） takes "o"　（を）.

so:

BLAHBLAHを食べる　BLAHBLAH o taberu = to eat BLAHBLAH
blahblahが/は（BLAHBLAHを）食べる　blahblah ga/wa (BLAHBLAH o) taberu = blahblah eats (BLAHBLAH)

BTW: From what I hear, the verb "taberu" （食べる）cannot go without an object. Meaning, you can't just say "i eat". It has to have an object like "I eat SUSHI", or the object in which youre eating must be known to both you and the person with whom you a speaking.

Sorry for the bad explination. Hm...

In all, the thing you (or whoever) are eating will take "o"　（を）. The person/thing that is doing the eating will take "ga"（が） (or "wa"（は）).

Hope this helps ^^;;

がんばってくださいね！

-Tommy

[Toritoribe]

Tomii's explanation is perfect.:cool:
In addition to that, some form of 食べる[taberu,] such like 食べたい[tabetai,] 食べられる[taberareru,] can be used with the particle が[ga] as the object marker.

今夜はすしが食べたい。[Kon'ya wa sushi ga tabetai.]
I want to eat sushi tonight.

彼はすしが食べられない。[Kara wa sushi ga taberarenai.]
He can't eat sushi.

These forms express not an action but a state, "wanting to eat," "being able to eat," of the subject. This が has the same function as が[ga] in 〜が好き/嫌い[~ga suki/kirai,] 〜が上手だ/下手だ[~ga jouzu da/heta da,] or like that.

[grandkodiak]

ok that makes sense (other then the kanji which i cant read haha) but still not clear really... can there be a case where the object is the subject? guess im rusty on my english grammer definitions too hahah.

i like the formula example though, thats alot more clear for me to understand then the text examples in this book... i can see how "the sushi ate" is still a valid sentence but in context makes no sense...atleast in that choice of verb/noun combo! think i can manage now

[grandkodiak]

Heres a quick attempt if anyone can double check my particle usage...

Ashita wa, Houlihans ni boku to ikimashou ka?

Is this proper for "Would you go to Houlihans with me tomorrow?"

[Aurura]

I'm thinking "ikimashou" should probably be "ikimasen"...?

As if to say "won't you go with me"?

[AMIGO]

I'm thinking "ikimashou" should probably be "ikimasen"...?
As if to say "won't you go with me"?

You can say both.
Practically the sense is the same. It's depend on how do you prefer to say it.
Would you...? mashou ka?
Won't you...? masen ka?

[Aurura]

Ah, okay. Thank you, Amigo san!

[grandkodiak]

haha so i actually made a valid sentance in japanese?! YATTA! haha

[ASHIKAGA]

You can say both.
Practically the sense is the same. It's depend on how do you prefer to say it.
Would you...? mashou ka?
Won't you...? masen ka?

Actually, the two sound different at least to my ears.


Ashita wa, Houlihans ni boku to ikimashou ka?

"Boku to ikimashou ka?" sounds odd to me. We just don't say that.
It's sort of like saying "Shall we go to Houlihan's with me tomorrow?".

It should be "Ashita*, boku to Houlihan ni ikimasen ka?"

*I would ommit the "wa" there. If you say "Ashita wa", it sounds like "(You are doing something else today) but TOMORROW, do you want to go to....." or "You are going to Houlihans with someone else today, but TOMORROW, would you go with me?"

[AMIGO]

Actually, the two sound different at least to my ears.
"Boku to ikimashou ka?" sounds odd to me. We just don't say that.
It's sort of like saying "Shall we go to Houlihan's with me tomorrow?".
It should be "Ashita*, boku to Houlihan ni ikimasen ka?"

Do you mean you must use "mashou" form without "boku to"?

Pikunikku ni ikimashou ka? Shall we go for a picnic?
Is a correct translation?
Teribi wo mimashou ka? Let's watch the telly.

"Houlihan's ni ikimashou ka?" would be ok as an invitation?

Thank you!

[ASHIKAGA]

Do you mean you must use "mashou" form without "boku to"?
Pikunikku ni ikimashou ka? Shall we go for a picnic?
Is a correct translation?
Terebi wo mimashou ka? Let's watch the telly.
"Houlihan's ni ikimashou ka?" would be ok as an invitation?
Thank you!

Using "boku to" with "mashou" is fine. It's just you cannot use it in questions.

While "Houlihan's ni ikimashou ka?" is fine (although it just does not sound natural to me), I would still go with what Aurura had suggested in her post (using "masenka" instead of "mashou ka").

Ashita (boku to) Houlihans ni ikimasenka.

That is the most natural sounding way to say "Would you like to go to Houlihans with me?". By changing the ending to "masenka", you are giving the person being asked more room. It has the overtone of "Would you be at all interested in going there with me? It is OK to say no if you're not interested...".

[AMIGO]

OK, thank you.

My apologies to Aurura San.

:relief:

[Aurura]

I appreciate the detail in your explainastion, Ashikaga san, thank you very much.
I will need to make effort to memorize when and when not to use 'ha' in sentence.

Amigo san, it's quite alright, no worries! :haihai:

[grandkodiak]

ha sounds almost like subtle double negatives... I'll try it but if she saiys hai or iie I won't know whether she really means to go or not! haha! I get what you are saying though, its more like saying "Will you not go with me tonight?" which I guess is more polite in English then saying "Will you go with me tonight to..."

[Toritoribe]

Probably one of the reasons why "boku to ~mashou ka?" sounds odd would be "boku ga ~mashou" is often used as "I'll do something (for you,)" "let me do something (for you.)"
e.g.
Boku ga Houlihans ni ikimashou.
I'll go to Houlihans (for you.)

Similarly, "~mashou ka?" is often used as a modest expression "shall I do something?"

Boku ga Houlihans ni ikimashou ka?
Shall I go to Houlihans?

"Boku/Watashi to ~mashou" could sound somehow intrusive/assertive in some cases, so it would be hardly used in a polite "Would you do something with me?" context.

[AMIGO]

Thank you for clarifying that point, Toritoribe San.
You are very attentive to student's problems :wave: