Afghanistan War !

[Hezam]

Hi everyone,
as you read the news,many solders have been killed lately in Afghanistan.
5 Helicopters shot down this week !
many Afghani solders killed...etc

it seems like Taliban defeated US and the Alliance especially in the summer it will be more tough for them..

Do you think the war is Absurd !
they waste many people (Solders & Civilians ) and alot of money while they can solve that by Supporting the economy instead of destroying everything including people..

People who see their country destroying will not be Grateful but if they see Development & Reconstruction projects they will belive that US came to help.

what's your opinion ?

[hideway]

That Afghanistan is better off without Talibans or any other fundamentalist nutjobs.

And I find it a bit of an overstatement to say that the U.S. is losing the war,the coalition keep pushing the talibans out of the major areas and cities. If they couldn't take refuge on the Pakistan's side, they would be probably already long time dead.

[Hezam]

i would rather say "Afghanistan will be better without Al-Qaeda not taliban"..
i was reading the news this week and it was very tough week for the US +UK army.
so what you think is the best solution ?
to move out of Afghanistan or to stay in Afghanistan and to send more solders ?

[Derfel]

i would rather say "Afghanistan will be better without Al-Qaeda not taliban"..
i was reading the news this week and it was very tough week for the US +UK army.
so what you think is the best solution ?
to move out of Afghanistan or to stay in Afghanistan and to send more solders ?

They're already there, they stirred things up. To move out and abandon the country without handling the situation would be a very irresponsible step. I mean, if there wasn't enough chaos, just image what would happen if the troops moved out.

[Hezam]

yes it will be another chaos worse than before !
i wonder if they thought about this situation before attacking Afghanistan !

[Emoni]

I'm entirely against religious extremists, but when they decide to attack and kill people, that is when that "against" goes to "you die."

I was against the Iraq war completely for reasons that have been said thousands of times before. However, with Afghanistan being one of the main bases of the Taliban, the group that directly attacked and murdered US citizens, and those of other countries as well in the world, including many MANY of their "fellow Muslims," I see it as an obvious front against them.

The US has been taking some hits; however, the US military far out guns the Taliban and isn't "losing" any sort of war as far as I'm aware of.

However, this is a very superficial rundown. It is far more complicated of course than the above, and I'm open to arguments for and against numerous actions or the way that the war is being handled or actions taken by soldiers. War on any term is still war, and an awful horrible thing. However, at the same time when someone punches you in the back of the head, I'm the type who sees no moral problem with responding two fold and breaking every bone in their face.

[hideway]

I'm entirely against religious extremists, but when they decide to attack and kill people, that is when that "against" goes to "you die."

I was against the Iraq war completely for reasons that have been said thousands of times before. However, with Afghanistan being one of the main bases of the Taliban, the group that directly attacked and murdered US citizens, and those of other countries as well in the world, including many MANY of their "fellow Muslims," I see it as an obvious front against them. Actually, as Hezam mentioned, there is a difference between Al Qaeda and the Talibans. The ones that performed the September 11th were Al Qaeda, not Talibans. Talibans took refuge and allowed Al Qaeda's terror training camps on their soil. The very reason of the war was to bring all that to an end.

And Hezam, I'll probably not be surprised given your record, but seems that you're really saying that Afghanistan is better with Talibans then without them. Care to enlight us on the reasons of your opinion?

[Hezam]

Thanks Emoni,you are right.
I'm entirely against religious extremists, but when they decide to attack and kill people, that is when that "against" goes to "you die."
yes i agree.

I was against the Iraq war completely for reasons that have been said thousands of times before. However, with Afghanistan being one of the main bases of the Taliban, the group that directly attacked and murdered US citizens, and those of other countries as well in the world, including many MANY of their "fellow Muslims," I see it as an obvious front against them.
you are right about Iraq,but for your info,Taliban is different than Al-Qaeda,they rule Afghanistan and 95% of Afghan people accepted Taliban BUT Al-Qaeda made a mistake when they attacked US and the big problem is they wennt to Afghanistan so US forced to Attack Taliban with Al-Qaeda,Talibans mistake is protecting Al-Qaeda.

at the same time when someone punches you in the back of the head, I'm the type who sees no moral problem with responding two fold and breaking every bone in their face.
Of course you have the right to do that.

Actually, as Hezam mentioned, there is a difference between Al Qaeda and the Talibans. The ones that performed the September 11th were Al Qaeda, not Talibans. Talibans took refuge and allowed Al Qaeda's terror training camps on their soil. The very reason of the war was to bring all that to an end.
Perfect answer,that what wanted to say.

And Hezam, I'll probably not be surprised given your record, but seems that you're really saying that Afghanistan is better with Talibans then without them. Care to enlight us on the reasons of your opinion?
My opinion is,I dont agree with Al-Qaeda,they made big mistakes....
Taliban Should not protect Al-Qaeda..
Arab+Islamic countries should rather support taliban by building Afghanistan instead ignoring that country for groups like Al-Qaeda,Also US+Europe should solve palestine issue BECAUSE it's The center of the conflict between the west and the middle East,Duh we have enough of this issue >_<

And the US and the Allies choose Thieves to be the Afghani Army ! And the civils hate those army who steal people everyday.
They should Negotiate with Taliban honestly and not lie at them.
America must solve the problem is palestine to remove the hate witch Filling Muslims hurts.

I am looking forward to see what President Obama will do and i am Optimistic about him.
Thanks Emoni,hidway..

[hideway]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/08/03/grant.brainwashing.cnn

[Hezam]

maybe they threat them to say that or maybe they gave them money...

[hideway]

Or maybe it really happened.

:|

[Hezam]

yes because All governments in the world make mistakes ^^.

[hideway]

Recruiting children to blow themselves up hardly seems like a "mistake" to me. It is plain savagery and horrendous. Yet another reason on why these Talibans should be eradicated from the surface of earth. No one should be exposed, yet alone be ruled, by this kind of animals.

Why aren't you also mad at this Hezam? If Israel did this to Palestinians you would be all over the place claiming that they were to blame, condemn and/or insult. Instead you make those statements. Why the double standard?

[Hezam]

Recruiting children to blow themselves up hardly seems like a "mistake" to me. It is plain savagery and horrendous. Yet another reason on why these Talibans should be eradicated from the surface of earth. No one should be exposed, yet alone be ruled, by this kind of animals.
No one should be eradicated from the surface of earth !! everyone should respect the other,if I/he want to Imposed my point of view by forcing the other side,then both sides will fail.
i always wanted to say "Israel should be eradicated from the surface of earth" but i know it's wrong so i hold back.

Why aren't you also mad at this Hezam? If Israel did this to Palestinians you would be all over the place claiming that they were to blame, condemn and/or insult. Instead you make those statements. Why the double standard?
First,Israel has no right in palestine.
there is a differences between Afghanistan and Palestine...
I am Mad at Al-Qaeda and US & Allies,those who caused the war in Afghanistan...
US & Allies fault is Palistine & Iraq.
Al-Qaeda fault is 11 september.
the double standard is what US government & Allies do.

The problems in Afghanistan and Irag are connected to what Israel do to Palestine.

Please read about the issue in Palestine Not in israeli or western news !!!
hope you understand that one day m8.

[hideway]

Is AlJazeera enough "muslin" to you?
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/07/200972914236661774.html

[Hezam]

This news from the Pakistani media and we all know that 90% is fake.
though,Yes maybe they do it.i dont say Taliban are angels !! they are humans after all !! they do mistakes like everyone do...
But what makes me angry is this :
Why the double standard?
how can someone in your age say it ! it sounds like you dont know exactly what is happening...
the reason why people in US and Europe hate Muslims is Ignorance.

All what we need is to read about both culture,of course there are many Muslims dont know the western system and rules and people,so we really need to know both culture.
No hate,No war,No terrorism.
is it clear ?

[Yan]

According to me, I completly support war in Afghanistan. I'm really satisfied to see that those extremists have been kicked out. They were a theat for everyone and they were also supporting terrorist attacks against USA. Afghanistan is much better now without those dumbs.

[Hezam]

As i said,We dont support Al-Qaeda,you see how all Muslims around the world refused Al-Qaeda.
But Taliban is different,even if the western media fake the truth,we know that Taliban was good government but No one support them,No one care about Afghanistan....
Why dont you people open your eyes and stop depending on your media !!
the western media owners are jewish,watch the eastern media like Japanese media or Chinese,South America media..etc.
I assure you that Taliban will not defeated this way,the power won't work with them..
i am not telling you that because i like them,No i want you to understand the setuation in Afghanistan,Why should people lose their sons,fathers,brothers (Solders ) while they have another choice ?

Try to learn from what happend to Russian there !

[Mycernius]

The Taliban were, are, and never will be a good government. They rely on terror and religious idealism taken to the extremes to keep the population under control. Although many islamic countries are not known for their human rights records, especially towards women, and your own country is amoung them Hezam, they all were idyllic places of sun compared to Afghanistan under the Taliban. Thet were and are a corrupt, intolerant, hypocritical bunch of power mad men who dragged that country back to the virtual stone age just to feather their own nests. They are about as Islamic in thought and nature as a rabid dog.

[Hezam]

Before you talk about human rights can you tell me what is terrorism ?
especially towards women
What if the women accept the Islamic Rules ?
why do you want to force people to Apply the western laws ? people are free to live as they want.
See in France the government Prevent Hijab !! who is against the human rights ?
No one will listen to you if you dont listen to him.

They rely on terror and religious idealism taken to the extremes to keep the population under control.
the same goes to your country and US,see how many people killed by US & Alleis...
the Power is not the only choice ! it's the last choice.

If my country kill people i won't justify that acts,we stand against Al-Qaeda but the united states & Allies sided with israel,and they still support the israeli terrorism for 60 years !!
How can Arab/Muslims listen to the west after all this Lies ?
Do you agree with me ? or do you understand how we feel ?

duh! it's very irritating >_<

[hideway]

It is irritating indeed, but that is because you seem to think that there is a world-wide jewish conspiracy against the Arab world, and where Jews control everything on the backstage in order to make us, westerns, their sheep. What you seem to ignore is that premise is wrong, there is no world-wide conspiracy.

That type of speech have been around for centuries really, having it's peak during the nazi germany. Jews controlled everything, they were evil, they leeched the world for their own objectives, and therefor they should be killed, expelled and/or hated. All this thing you seem to have against the Jews is not new. It's merely imported from western beliefs some people had and continue to have.

I fully understand that, given your environment, you will not accept what I'm saying. And dismiss your words as not being pure antisemitism or full of hate. I reckon that they are probably widely accepted as truth around you.

The truth, or at least the view of most westerns that I know, is that this is not a matter of us against you. It is a matter of basic rights. As one in our culture believes that human live is to be sacred, that all people should be free from tyranny, including women and that every individual is due to his opinion and free will. It is only normal that westerns dismiss Talibans as a hateful bunch of evil people who torture and oppress their own citizens. This is considered by me as unacceptable.

The big majority of westerns, especially in Portugal where I live, don't have anything against muslins or Arabs. And I, somehow, get the feeling that we're more close to Arabs than to Asians for example, probably due to our common past, as we were arabs for about 300 years.

The point, before I lose myself again, is that one should always be open for understanding the other side. That is the key to final peace.

[Tsuyoiko]

See in France the government Prevent Hijab !! who is against the human rights ?

To say that the French government prevent hijab is misleading. The French government haven't imposed a hijab ban as such. They banned the wearing of religious symbols in state schools. Muslims can't wear the hijab, Christians can't wear crosses, Jews can't wear skullcaps and Wiccans can't wear pentacles.

I'm also opposed to this law, as I don't think it's any different from the situation in, for example, Saudi Arabia, where the wearing of hijab is enforced by law.

[Hezam]

hideway,very well said,i didnt expect it.
you seem to think that there is a world-wide jewish conspiracy against the Arab world
Not Arab but All the non-jewish,as you see the big companies in the west are for jewish ( Zionist-Mason ) and they owned many companies in japan now.

That type of speech have been around for centuries really, having it's peak during the nazi germany. Jews controlled everything, they were evil, they leeched the world for their own objectives, and therefor they should be killed
This is european problem with the jewish,our problem with the jewish is the fake country call ( Israel ).

All this thing you seem to have against the Jews is not new. It's merely imported from western beliefs some people had and continue to have.
No,We hate them because they killed and kill many Arabs in Palestine and it's very clear reason.

I fully understand that, given your environment, you will not accept what I'm saying. And dismiss your words as not being pure antisemitism or full of hate. I reckon that they are probably widely accepted as truth around you.
Actually i understand it,i agree with you though,why should i lie to my self if i understand the truth ?!
something else,we are not antisemitism,read the history between jewish and Muslims....i said that many times ><

is that this is not a matter of us against you. It is a matter of basic rights. As one in our culture believes that human live is to be sacred, that all people should be free from tyranny, including women and that every individual is due to his opinion and free will
i agree with this points,but you have to know that this won't work on all cultures.

The big majority of westerns, especially in Portugal where I live, don't have anything against muslins or Arabs. And I, somehow, get the feeling that we're more close to Arabs than to Asians for example, probably due to our common past, as we were arabs for about 300 years.
I am glad to hear that,correctly it was arabic for 800 years.

The point, before I lose myself again, is that one should always be open for understanding the other side. That is the key to final peace.
Yes,this is what all people need,i will be happy to answer and discuss anything without aguement ^^

Thanks ^^

Tsuyoiko-chan,this is against human rights,isn't it ?

Afghani people is not like Americans or any other poeple,so it's too hard to force them to follow these laws.

[Tsuyoiko]

Tsuyoiko-chan,this is against human rights,isn't it ?

Yes, the law banning religious symbols in French schools is against Human Rights, just as the law requiring women to wear the hijab in Saudi Arabia is against Human Rights. However, I consider it to be a relatively minor breach of Human Rights, compared to some of the laws that exist in Saudi Arabia.

[Hezam]

That's true.good point Tsuyoiko ^^

[Derfel]

Before you talk about human rights can you tell me what is terrorism ?

What if the women accept the Islamic Rules ?
why do you want to force people to Apply the western laws ? people are free to live as they want.
See in France the government Prevent Hijab !! who is against the human rights ?
No one will listen to you if you dont listen to him.


Now, France, like the rest of the EU is bound to follow the European Convention on Human Rights an international treaty, which is universally recognised throughout the EU. There is no reason to look for the French version as it matches with the English completely. Anyway, here is what it provides, Article 9:1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.


2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Note that this is a qualified right. Human Rights doesn't mean you can do whatever you please. There is a very legitimate aim in prohibiting religious apparel in a number of institutions. By doing so, the legislature of a country is protecting the 'rights and freedoms of others.', it is essentially preventing people from taking a holier than thou approach and terrorising others in such a manner. It tackles peer pressure.

Imagine a girl of Arabic descent who wishes to live her life as an atheist or a very 'mild' Muslim who doesn't want to wear any form of clothing. Or imagine a Christian person who doesn't want to wear a cross, contrary to what is accepted in his or her community. In both cases there is a high chance of being pestered by other, more religious, members of the community who manifest their beliefs in a very flagrant and obvious manner.

In an environment where religious apparel is prohibited, the chance of the above happening is much lower.

Again, another legitimate aim is the protection of secularity. The Case of Leyla Sahin v Turkey deals with this in depth (the wearing and prohibition of Muslim headgear in Turkish educational institutions, to be more precise), and its a pretty good read actually, but in any case, states have the right to protect secular values for us all, and such was the case in Turkey. The Strasbourg court (ECtHR) ruled that yes, the protection of secular values is an entirely legitimate aim enshrined in Turkey's constitution. As Tsuyoiko already stated, these are not laws specifically targeting Muslims, they deal with religion generally. In a secular atmosphere everyone is expected to act in a modest way and keep his or her beliefs away from the rest of the community. There is nothing inherently anti-Muslim here.

[Tsuyoiko]

Apologies for my somewhat offtopic comments :gomen:

There is a very legitimate aim in prohibiting religious apparel in a number of institutions. By doing so, the legislature of a country is protecting the 'rights and freedoms of others.',

I agree that the aim of this law is to protect the rights and freedoms of others, but I think it goes too far. I think it's enough that the institution itself rejects the display of religious symbols, without requiring individuals to suppress the expression of their own beliefs. I would oppose any law or dress code that prevents people from wearing what they want, whether this be religious symbols, jeans or Cannibal Corpse T-shirts ;-)

[Hezam]

I agree that the aim of this law is to protect the rights and freedoms of others, but I think it goes too far. I think it's enough that the institution itself rejects the display of religious symbols, without requiring individuals to suppress the expression of their own beliefs. I would oppose any law or dress code that prevents people from wearing what they want, whether this be religious symbols, jeans or Cannibal Corpse T-shirts
perfect answer...but !! we are out topic lol

[RolandtheHeadless]

"People who see their country destroying will not be Grateful but if they see Development & Reconstruction projects they will belive that US came to help."

So why doesn't Saudi Arabia use some of its oil riches to help their Muslim brothers in Afghanistan?

[Hezam]

Because US won't allow Saudi Arabia,they will say "You support the terrorism"
they still say "Taliban recieve money from gulf countries" !!
the real goal is not to help Afghani people,they want to be close to Russia and China..

[RolandtheHeadless]

No, our real goal is to eliminate the people who murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01.

Our last president was a fool who, like an undisciplined child, became distracted by Iraq before he finished his first project. He let the terrorists slip through his fingers when he could have had them at Tora Bora. Now the job in Afghanistan has become ten times more difficult.

But I didn't ask you why Saudi Arabia isn't sending money to the terrorists. I'm asking why you're not helping the Afghanis by donating funds to help rebuild roads, hospitals, etc. I'm sure the US won't stand in the way of such humanitarian efforts.

[Hezam]

I understand what you said but the US Government killed thousands civils Afghanis,as i said Taliban is different than Al-Qaeda...Taliban is a real government but the American Media says the opposite.
Like Iraq,they Lied to All people,they said Saddam has Nuclear weapon but the real reason is the Oil.

No one here will listen to the US while they support Israel,i am telling you what all or most people here think.
Why does US risk their Security and progress for some Occupiers ?!

[RolandtheHeadless]

"I understand what you said but the US Government killed thousands civils Afghanis."

As an American, I deeply regret the deaths of innocent civilians. In war, unfortunately, giving shelter to or even living near the combatants is very dangerous. I don't for a minute believe that my government is deliberately targeting civilians, as that would only be self-defeating.

"as i said Taliban is different than Al-Qaeda...Taliban is a real government."

The Taliban were the real government. They refused to hand over the 9/11 terrorists for justice, after being given every opportunity to do so. They joined our enemies by giving aid and shelter to them. Sometimes real governments go bad and must be overthrown. The Nazis were once the real governing party of Germany.

"Like Iraq,they Lied to All people,they said Saddam has Nuclear weapon but the real reason is the Oil."

Yes, to America's shame, the Bush administration lied about those things. I am personally embarrassed to have voted for Bush in 2000; I believed his lies then (e.g. "no foreign nation building"). At least I knew better by the next election in 2004. But I don't think the Iraq invasion was only about oil. Does Afghanistan have oil?

"No one here will listen to the US while they support Israel,i am telling you what all or most people here think. Why does US risk their Security and progress for some Occupiers ?!"

In turn, most Americans don't understand why your people wish to connect Israel to every other problem in the Middle East. Yes, we recognize that the Israel/Palestine problem is a big one -- but what does Israel have to do with Afghanistan? Why do Muslims hate Jews, and Jews hate Muslims? Especially when they share the same or similar root cultures and religions?

They both have the same holy city, so why can't they share it? Isn't Jerusalem big enough to hold a mosque and a synagogue? There even ought to be room to squeeze in a Christian church, since that city is also holy to Christians.

I think most Americans believe that the Jews should have their homeland, and the Palestinians too. But we know that Israel is the only nation in the Middle East that is our reliable ally, and our news media show suicide attacks by Muslim terrorists, not Jewish terrorists.

These ancient feuds and ethnic hatreds are largely beyond our understanding, I think. Most Americans do NOT see any connection to Iraq or Afghanistan. For this reason, I generally do not support the US meddling in the Middle East. However, I did support our invasion of Afghanistan and overthrow of the Taliban, because that nation and government harbored the terrorists who attacked us.

[Derfel]

No, our real goal is to eliminate the people who murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01.

If victory ever comes to America, it will be Pyrrhic. America's response was disproportionate and injurious. Its like accidentally dropping a valuable earring into the ocean and then organising a search expedition.

Taliban can get to f*ck. Government or not, they're extremists. Extremists are not entitled to authority.


I agree with Roland that countries need to be broken up and viewed as what they are, countries. There is no pan-Arabic or pan-Islamic state. It is time for Muslim countries to think of themselves as states. Every country has her own cross, and helping each other is fine, but Middle Eastern countries often forget about their borders. Don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with healthy solidarity, but this whole Israel business Roland was talking about, is too much.

[Hezam]

they're extremists. Extremists are not entitled to authority
This is the way Afghani people live their life...!

It is time for Muslim countries to think of themselves as states. Every country has her own cross, and helping each other is fine, but Middle Eastern countries often forget about their borders
I understand your point but we dont care about the borders since we are like one country,Borders have been made by UK and France..etc.

but this whole Israel business Roland was talking about, is too much.
i did not understand what you mean by this above !! can you explain please ?

[Mycernius]

This is the way Afghani people live their life...!

This was the way they were forced to live their lives under the Taliban. The Taliban were Pashtun in origin and when the took control they replaced non-pashtun with pashtun, not a good way to go. They regarded shia as non-muslims and the Hazara, that make up 10% of Afghanistan, as non-muslims. Then there was their strict intpretation of Sharia law, one of the strictest in the islamic world. By the time of 9/11 they were not a popular government in their own country. Afghans who could. fled the country, this included an hijacking of a plane to the UK, to escape them. Nowadays most of the Taliban are not afghans, but are muslims and fundies from other islamic countries, mainly Pakistan.

Why on earth you are defending these religious extremists is beyond me? All I assume is that you haven't gone and looked up how corrupt and dictatorial they were when in power.

[Hezam]

Now Pakistan ! and then Syria,Sudan.Yemen,Saudi Arabia....!!!!
See this please :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2wbMfWjMas&feature=PlayList&p=C7007BF44218938D&index=2

[janoun2003]

Alwys the poor poepl pay the stupidity of the politisian