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alteregoivy
Aug 4, 2009, 04:30
I'm having trouble with expressions used to indicate things that occur at the same time.

First of all, what is the difference between 〜うちに and 〜際 ? Is it just that the first is used in more casual situations, and the second is used more formally?

Also, when using 〜ところ/〜ところに/〜ところで/〜ところを、how can you tell which particle needs to be used? I'm sure it's dependent on a clause in another part of the sentence, but I just can't figure it out.

Example practice sentences follow, I'll put in bold the right answer, which I basically got a 0% on.

大きいなあくびをしたところ(に・を・が)写真に撮ら れた。
よく眠っているところ(に・を・が)起こされた。
10ページ書き終わったところ(に・を・で)、パソコンが動か なくなった。
引越しで忙しいところ(に・で・は)、国から友達が遊 びにきた。
テストの答えがわかったところ(に・で・を)、終わり のバザーが鳴った。

Thank you!

Toritoribe
Aug 4, 2009, 07:34
what is the difference between 〜うちに and 〜際 ? Is it just that the first is used in more casual situations, and the second is used more formally?
〜うちに is close to 〜間に, not for "at a moment" but for "in/during a span."

涼しいうちに散歩してくる。
冷めないうちにお召し上がりください。

〜際 is close to 〜とき and mostly used for a concrete action.

こちらにお出での際は、是非お立ち寄りください。
×子供の際は、よく一緒に遊んでいた。
○子供のとき/頃は、よく一緒に遊んでいた。

Also, when using 〜ところ/〜ところに/〜ところで/〜ところを、how can you tell which particle needs to be used? I'm sure it's dependent on a clause in another part of the sentence, but I just can't figure it out.
Example practice sentences follow, I'll put in bold the right answer, which I basically got a 0% on.
大きいなあくびをしたところ(に・を・が)写真に撮ら れた。
よく眠っているところ(に・を・が)起こされた。
10ページ書き終わったところ(に・を・で)、パソコンが動か なくなった。
引越しで忙しいところ(に・で・は)、国から友達が遊 びにきた。
テストの答えがわかったところ(に・で・を)、終わり のバザーが鳴った。
That's a particle issue.

#1 the object of 撮られる
#2 when
#3,5 at the moment
#4 when/where

alteregoivy
Aug 4, 2009, 08:11
〜うちに is close to 〜間に, not for "at a moment" but for "in/during a span."
涼しいうちに散歩してくる。
冷めないうちにお召し上がりください。
〜際 is close to 〜とき and mostly used for a concrete action.
こちらにお出での際は、是非お立ち寄りください。
×子供の際は、よく一緒に遊んでいた。
○子供のとき/頃は、よく一緒に遊んでいた。
Thank you very much! I think I understand now.

That's a particle issue.
#1 the object of 撮られる
#2 when
#3,5 at the moment
#4 when/where
Ok... Then I think I need a recap on particles. :? I thought that に is used for "when," rather than を, so I don't understand #2 still. Also, I still don't understand the difference between using で and に, as in between 3/5 and 4. Is で only ever used when the preceding verb is past tense (〜ったところで)?
Thank you for your help. Sorry I'm slow. :worried:

Toritoribe
Aug 5, 2009, 07:49
No, no, sorry for my too much abridging.:p

I thought that に is used for "when," rather than を
Right. When a clause is nominalized by とき, the particle に is used.

10ページ書き終わったところで、パソコンが動かなくなった。
10ページ書き終わったときに、パソコンが動かなくなった。

You can think these ところ as "a scene/situation in an action/movement."
〜ところを is close to 〜のを, the verb used in the main clause expresses the action of the subject of the whole sentence. The all example sentences are the descriptions about "me." In #1 and 2, the subjects of 撮られる and 起こされる are "I," whereas the subjects in the main clases in #3~5 are not "I"(パソコン, 友達, ブザー).

〜ところで emphasizes that it's "just at the moment" than 〜ところに. The action/movement in the main clause is done just at the point in/right after the action/movement expressed in the ところ-clause.

〜ところに is close to 〜ときに. In #4, a friend came to me when I was busy, not just at the moment I was busy.

. Is で only ever used when the preceding verb is past tense (〜ったところで)?
No. You can use ところで in a conditional sentence, too.

これから勉強しようというところで遊びに来られると、 すごく困る。