Prayer?

[Tsuyoiko]

"what is the use of praying?--it's only a sin!"

This is a quote from A Gentle Spirit by Dostoevsky that got me thinking.

What is the point of prayer? As an atheist, prayer seems entirely selfish to me. I think that's what Dostoevsky meant when he said prayer is a sin. Isn't prayer either asking god for something, or else worshiping god in the hope that he will look favourably on us?

[Derfel]

I agree that it does sound pretty selfish. Personally, I just think of prayer as another means for achieving something. People either pray to subconsciously calm themselves down or whatever, or they pray because they find that their prayers will in some way influence the ordinary course of events. Either way their motives are selfish [assuming altruism does not exist and so people who pray for the well-being of others do so to feel nice], though I don't think that in the latter case it is any different from some other means.

I mean a person may pray for someone's death or he or she may kill the person. He will be in the same state of mind in terms of what he expects from his deeds, so I believe its just as selfish as any other deed. Though, well, of course infinitely less effective.

I think from a Christian perspective the whole idea of praying is pretty weird. I mean, if God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, why the hell would he need fools to pray to him? He'd know what people want, he could make it happen and he'd feel inclined to help. So, I mean, that leads me believe that even if God exists, which is pretty unlikely, he must be taking the piss. I mean, I can imagine how ridiculous some prayers actually are. If a demiurge exists, prayers must be his amusement.

Like, the prayers of a radical Christian paraphiliac. A 'copro-paedo-priest'.

[Mycernius]

http://godless.biz/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/2008-12-01-prayer-vs-hard-work.png
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/Mycernius/prayer.jpg
That is about all I have to say on the matter.
Thanks to 4chan and godless.biz for images

[bakaKanadajin]

If by prayer you mean meditation I think the benefits are obvious.

But if you mean begging your God for something or basically giving up on conventional means of getting the job done in favour of waiting for your God to help you, that's bogus.

Now, concentrated mental energies, group energetic dynamics, and active energy manipulation as a result of prayer or prayer-like activities possibly resulting in physically manifested phenomena like crying statues and visions and whatnot, that's an interesting topic. What is the link between mind and matter? Prayer, that is, the mental state brought about by being in a state of prayer, I wonder whether it has any benefit or anything?

It's like laughing. You don't have to actually be laughing at something funny, but rather the physical motions caused by laughing and the diaphragm and whatnot cause the body to create endorphins and 'laughing' therapy is sometimes effectively used as part of holistic healing practices. If you get rid of the religion and isolate the good parts of a 'praying' state of mind maybe there is some benefit there, which I guess comes back to meditation but not quite. I imagine prayer being a bit more 'active', focused and concentrated vs. the loose, 'passive' notion of meditation.

[AJBryant]

I think you really misread Dostoyevsky, there. Praying wasn't the sin.

And I think you also lack an understanding of prayer.

[bakaKanadajin]

The OP offered their opinions as a topic-starter.

This is afterall a discussion forum..

Therefore it'd be customary to enlighten everyone with just why you think so, where you think your opinions differ, and why people are 'misunderstanding prayer'. You obviously have some information we're not aware of that will help further the discussion.

[RolandtheHeadless]

"what is the use of praying?--it's only a sin!"

You need the context for interpretation. And a good translator from the original Russian. If you've only committed a sin, then why bother praying for forgiveness? I.e., praying out to be saved for when you do something really bad? That's an alternative interpretation to your own.

Was that Dostoevski's belief, or the belief of a character or narrator? I can't tell what that quote means, as presented.

If you pray for the genocide victims in Somalia, are you being selfish?

[Derfel]

If you pray for the genocide victims in Somalia, are you being selfish?

Of course. You pray because it causes you to experience this warm feeling inside, people like to (erroneously) refer to as altruism, you wouldn't pray otherwise.

[ChrisGR]

"what is the use of praying?--it's only a sin!"
This is a quote from A Gentle Spirit by Dostoevsky that got me thinking.
What is the point of prayer? As an atheist, prayer seems entirely selfish to me. I think that's what Dostoevsky meant when he said prayer is a sin. Isn't prayer either asking god for something, or else worshiping god in the hope that he will look favourably on us?

It's quite hypocritic to say that not anyone, but the most are selfish so argument is kinda off.

[Tsuyoiko]

I think you really misread Dostoyevsky, there. Praying wasn't the sin.

If you've only committed a sin, then why bother praying for forgiveness? I.e., praying out to be saved for when you do something really bad? That's an alternative interpretation to your own.

You're probably right about my misinterpreting the quote. I think Roland's interpretation is probably closer to the mark. But no matter, my (mis)interpretation inspired the question of whether prayer is a sin, and I think that's still an interesting thing to discuss.

And I think you also lack an understanding of prayer.

As bakaKanadajin says, it's useless to say that unless you offer some explanation of where my lack of understanding lies.

If you pray for the genocide victims in Somalia, are you being selfish?

In addition to Derfel's comment, I think there's another way in which this might be selfish. Look at Mycernius' post. Praying for genocide victims is easy, quick and free. There are many other ways to try to help them, but they are all more difficult, take time or cost money. So of the various methods, prayer is the most selfish in the sense that it requires the least effort.

[RolandtheHeadless]

I guess I'd be even more selfish if I chartered a plane and dropped food for the Somalis. Just think how good I'd feel then.

[Mike Cash]

That is about all I have to say on the matter.


The late and much lamented Southern philosopher and raconteur Jerry Clower spoke on the nature and power of prayer. I'll have to paraphrase him here:

When I have prayed, "Lord, send me a chicken." very seldom have I gotten one. But when I pray, "Lord, send me out after a chicken......I get one every time

I will point out that Jerry was a very devout Baptist, lest anyone should read the above and mistake him for an Atheist.

[Derfel]

I guess I'd be even more selfish if I chartered a plane and dropped food for the Somalis. Just think how good I'd feel then.


As I have already implied, absent altruism, the magnitude of your deeds does not matter. It remains the same example.

[Drew-san]

I believe prayer is pointless.

I had a huge response ready, but when it came down to it my thoughts were to jumbled too make a coherent post, so I'll just leave it at that. :relief:

[Kinsao]

Well obviously for an atheist, prayer is pointless as an atheist doesn't believe there is anything that can 'hear' the prayers!

Then there is meditation, but I don't think that's actually 'prayer' as such, more sort of contemplating, really, though it can be about spiritual things.

I have heard that there are four main 'types' of prayer:
-- Asking for something - probably the most well-known sort of prayer! ;)
-- Saying thank you for something - yeah well, most of us forget this *blush*
-- Praising the god/s - kind of random, not asking for anything.
-- Saying you're sorry for something.

... which kind of makes sense.

[janoun2003]

The pry is lik wends for who feel lonly

[Kinsao]

Oh and there is a saying "God helps those who help themselves", otherwise known as, "Get off your a*s and do something" ;-)