Refering to Non Japanese things as Japanese...

[Gaki]

I've noticed recently that "Westerners" confuse things that arent of Japanese origin as Japanese.

An example of this is Kanji.

It is CHINESE not Japanese ~ maybe when it's read in Japanese it's a different sound, but the character and main meaning is still Chinese.

Like i was watching a TV show and the guy had a Tattoo of a Chinese character and said it was Japanese.
Maybe it's a stupid example, but it pisses me off when people refer to something which isnt Japanese as Japanese.

[Seppuku]

well the kanji may not have been started in japan but he may have gotten the tattoo based on the japanese reading and not the chinese there for it would be japanese

[Kaminoko]

Although if Hiragana or Katakana symbols were used, then it would be Japanese.

Although I have seen tattoos being advertised with the symbol for kami(god) as spirit, rather than rei(spirit). Although I've heard that Japanese definitions of kami can get confusing...

[Mandylion]

The main meaning may indeed be different. You can't write kanji in a Japanese way and have it make sense to a Chinese person (first Japan uses kana, and Chinese doesn't). The same thing the other way around. Kind of like if I went and read posts in on the French language board on this forum. I might be able to make out a few words, since English borrows so much. Same with Japanese and Chinese, but meanings can be very different. The old one that is passed around a lot is 手紙 (tegami in Japanese). In Japan this means letter, and in China (so I have been told) it means "toilet paper."

The question is, and one Gaki is pointint towards, is when does something stop being "borrowed" so to speak and become part of one's "own" (even if it comes from a common starting point)?

And yes, like Gaki, I don't like the narrow world view of some people, but you get folks in Japan doing the same thing.

[Kaminoko]

Although...I'm tired...too many "although"s in one posting is bad for one's health.

[Gaki]

Alot of the time i read Kanji in magazines and i can still understand what it means because i can read Chinese, although there are the odd occasions when a word is used differently and i wont understand unless i read it in a Japanese context.

In it's purest form the words still have the same meaning as Chinese, so i couldnt really consider it as Japanese.

The example MandyLion used : " 手紙 "


手 means hand
紙 means paper

Depending on what context you use that in, it could mean alot of things.

It's difficult to explain ^^;

[beastiebacon]

Westerners tend to be fairly ignorant when is comes Asian culture. I've noticed many gaijin's refer to anything Asian as Chinese.

[Carolgirl00]

ugh, i know exactly what you mean. it almost pisses me off. when they say that it's so ignorant and they sound so clueless. call things ASIAN not just Chinese!!

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by Gaki
Alot of the time i read Kanji in magazines and i can still understand what it means because i can read Chinese, although there are the odd occasions when a word is used differently and i wont understand unless i read it in a Japanese context.

In it's purest form the words still have the same meaning as Chinese, so i couldnt really consider it as Japanese.
I guess it sort of depends on what you mean by "purest form," but once you get down to the general sense of at least one of the core or distilled meanings my impression has always been there's still a great deal of overlap as well. Although many of the character combinations differ between them. And those other odd occasions being kanji like:

雇　(borrowed meaning employ in Japanese ; quail (? or other birds?) in Chinese

相　(still retains the original meaning of careful observation)

事　(also has the sense of servant in Chinese)

From the book A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters by Kenneth G. Henshall. These are just the ones I happen to remember, though. I'm sure there are many more of at least minor meanings which have persisted in their original form.

[TuskCracker]

Maybe some history of all this would be helpfull


a

[Uncle Frank]

Is a Toyota made in the US still Japanese ??

Frank

:clueless:

[cacawate]

So english isn't really english? Everything's borrowed from different languages. What if a Japanese person told his friend 'kindergarten' was English in front of a German guy? Word.

[Maciamo]

I've noticed recently that "Westerners" confuse things that arent of Japanese origin as Japanese.

An example of this is Kanji.

It is CHINESE not Japanese ~ maybe when it's read in Japanese it's a different sound, but the character and main meaning is still Chinese.


There are dozens of things like that. Just in food, ramen, gyoza, etc are also Chinese, tempura is originally Portuguese, karee (curry) is originally Indian, Yakiniku is Korean, then omrice, tonkatsu, guratan (gratin) and all the bakery, pasta, pizza and so on are all imports from France or Italy. About half of Japanese food is foreign in origin. Almost everything in politics, legislation, education, economy, industry, etc. are Western imports, an entire system copied and adapted from Meiji to recent times.

Even in the arts, Japanese modern literature from Meiji has been copied on western models, as pre-Meiji literature was pretty much limited to poetry, tales (monogatari), and plays such as noh, kabuki and rakugo. In painting, the style changed radically from Meiji, copied again on Western style. Even manga and anime appear well after Western comics (such as Tintin, Asterix, Superman, etc.) and animations (Disney, Lonely Tunes,...). Even thouh the sensitivity of Japanese arts is naturally Japanese, it is not traditionally Japanese.

Traditional Japan is facing extinction, slowly disappearing since Meiji. Who knows how many Japanese will still wear kimono, know how to practice tea ceremony, or understand kabuki or noh, in 50 years from now, when these are already restricted to a minority (usually old or conservative), and most Japanese youths know less than the average Western tourist about their Japan's history, samurai, geisha or religion (shinto & buddhism).

[Maciamo]

So english isn't really english? Everything's borrowed from different languages. What if a Japanese person told his friend 'kindergarden' was English in front of a German guy? Word.

At least "kindergarten" is used (mainly in US) English. I know lots of Japanese who think katakana words from French or German are English. When I speak to them and they use such words, I have to correct them and tell them it's French, German, Dutch or whatever. At least, most English speakers can recognise which language the word they use come from. Few Japanese really do (except evident ones from Italian...).

[Maciamo]

Westerners tend to be fairly ignorant when is comes Asian culture. I've noticed many gaijin's refer to anything Asian as Chinese.

Maybe you should say "Americans" instead of "Westerners". :blush: Never heard somebody confusing Japanese for Chinese in Europe. If they don't know, they'd say Asian or Oriental.

[m477]

Like drifting? Thank the Italians for that one.

[cacawate]

Maybe you should say "Americans" instead of "Westerners".

There 's a small comedy skit in England called "The Missing Chink," or somewhere along those lines, where two Chinese men look at the English world "Seinfeld-style." Anywho, this skit is hilarious because it shows the English and how ignorant they are of Asian culture. They go around asking English people simple Asian related questions and they don't know the slightest. So I guess "westerners" sums it up fine. You can download it from any major p2p utility.

http://www.mu-lan.org/missingchink.html

[Ewok85]

I remember an Aussie tv show doing the same in the US, was an absolute riot. They got this guy and dressed him up and had a limo, started calling him the Prime Minister and all this other stuff.

Another great show was Roy and HG's The Ice Dream during the Salt Lake City winter olympics. They'd do a weather segment where a person would point at a map and read the weather, cept the cities were moved about and new places added like Woolmaroolarong and the climates horribly off (was summer here during the american winter, so fairly hot). :D

[Mandylion]

Is a Toyota made in the US still Japanese ??

Frank invented a Zen koan (riddle) :cool:

[TuskCracker]

Westerners tend to be fairly ignorant when is comes Asian culture. I've noticed many gaijin's refer to anything Asian as Chinese.

No, they think Asians are Chinese or Japanese.

Americans do not travel as much as 30 years ago.

To Mexico, Canada and maybe a cruise in the Carribian, but thats it.

[cacawate]

I'd throw Vietnamese in there too; and Korean.

[Hachiko]

No, they think Asians are Chinese or Japanese.


Most, but not all people think of Asians as either Chines or Japanese. There are many who designated Asians by their ethnicity: Malaysians, Chinese, Filipinos, Japanese, Indians, Monoglians, etc.

Generalizations and stereotypes of people and things by cul-tures (not just Western, but all societies in general) are not out of ignorance, but rather out of the lack of internalizing vital knowledge about the background/ethnicity of who they are generalizing/stereotyping. In a way this is ethnocentrism, and every culture does this.

Off-topic, but I think this should be moved to the Opinions section.

[TuskCracker]

Most Americans just see Asian as two piles of people.

Chinese or Japanese.

In America people are considered
-> White
-> Hispanic
-> Puero Rican
-> Black (african-american)
-> Asian

EXAMPLE: Puerto Ricans are considered, most of the time as its own
category. Thats because Puerto Rico is part of United States.
_.

[nikki_the_insane]

*claps hands together once* Isn't it great how countries are getting together and sharing their own language with others. It's just wonderful! :D

[Hachiko]

Indeed. JapanReference is a global community after all..

[mad pierrot]

Can I make broad, sweeping generalizations about other nations, too?

Check out my new post in the humor section. Or not, if you're easily offended.

[TuskCracker]

Make tons of broad sweeps. We love it. If you don't love it, your not a human.

See below, I still say this is true about Americans

Westerners tend to be fairly ignorant when is comes Asian culture. I've noticed many gaijin's refer to anything Asian as Chinese.

No, they think Asians are Chinese or Japanese.

Americans do not travel as much as 30 years ago.

To Mexico, Canada and maybe a cruise in the Carribian, but thats it.

[mad pierrot]

I shall start by generalizing about people who generalize.
They just don't get it!
:p

"If you don't love it, your not a human"

Shall I generalize about skin color next?

[TuskCracker]

I shall start by generalizing about people who generalize.

I love that line

note: left-handed people are smarter than right-handed people. a true fact

.

[Maciamo]

I love that line

note: left-handed people are smarter than right-handed people. a true fact

.

I was going to say it's not possible since I am right-handed, but I realise a post earlier that I was not human. So that doesn't count, does it ? :?

[TuskCracker]

On average (this is an average) left-handed people have higher intelligence than right-handed people.

Its "not" natural to be left-handed, forces the brain to exercise more at a very early age. Forces the brain to use more of both sides (left side, right side idea).

Its an average, that is significantly obvious when measured.

[Uncle Frank]

ask her which of us is smarter! Somehow, I think she believes in JACK"S theory!

Frank

:bluush:

[mad pierrot]

"I shall start by generalizing about people who generalize."
-They just don't get it! -

Some jokes are always lost... :blush:

[Uncle Frank]

"I shall start by generalizing about people who generalize."
-They just don't get it! -

Some jokes are always lost... :blush:


Frank

:blush:

[mad pierrot]

I'm a HUMAN BEING and I don't LOVE broad generalizations. And, as Mecharmor23 has proved, not all generalizations are fact. And, even facts can be misleading. Don't even get me started on that one. More or less, I responded because recently I've been tired of all my Japanese co-workers assuming things about me because I'm from America. Stuff they saw on TV.

:banghead:

But hey, Americans are no different. The more I travel, the more I see how alike people are around the world. For good OR bad.

[cacawate]

recently I've been tired of all my Japanese co-workers assuming things about me because I'm from America.

You ever get 「外人自己中すぎ」? Sometimes it feels like you try so hard to fit in, but you still stick out. And you all know the hammer and the nail proverb.
:bawling:

[mad pierrot]

:D No, not yet!! (Although I'm sure they're thinkin it.) Nice one. I didn't know the Kanji for the "Jiko," so had to look it up.

:p

[TuskCracker]

More or less, I responded because recently I've been tired of all my Japanese co-workers assuming things about me because I'm from America. Stuff they saw on TV.


This would be its own great thread, "What Generalizations Japanese Have On Americans".

[deadhippo]

bak to the original topic
i think that saying kanji are not japanese is like saying potaoes arent irish food
there is some truth to it historically speaking but in this day and age is kanji are definitely japanese and potatoes are definitely irish food
why get annoyed at something so trivial as this

if you want ot be trivial you could say that english (language) isnt english (from england) as its a fact that hardly anyone, if anyone spoke english in the country we now call england 1500 years ago

[MotomanInuyasha]

Most Americans just see Asian as two piles of people.

Chinese or Japanese.

In America people are considered
-> White
-> Hispanic
-> Puero Rican
-> Black (african-american)
-> Asian

EXAMPLE: Puerto Ricans are considered, most of the time as its own
category. Thats because Puerto Rico is part of United States.
_.
Why does everyone in the U.S. think that if you even look black your ancestors are from Africa. What about Jamaica why does everyone always forget about us (well I dont live there anymore). What do Japanese people think of Americans and half breeds. I have only been to Japan once....but I was about four years old (dont recall anything from the trip) and we went to visit my grandparents in Kyoto.

[TwistedMac]

Can't really say stuff like in the original post irritates me...

ok, so they're ignorant of it, but everyone is ignorant of a lot of things. Everyone of us aswell.

If you're not interested in the whole asian thing, then you're not gonna go and learn a bunch of stuff about it, so stuff that might seem obvious to us, might not to others.

I don't know jack about say how an engine in a car works, but I sure hope car geeks don't hate me for not knowing what the little twingie under the other dang-a-doodle is called.

[lexico]

I would like to compare the kanji characters being called Japanese/Chinese problem with the Latin script. The Romans spread the Latin alphabet to most of Western Europe, and we call all of those the Latin script generically, but can also call them by the country that adopted them. E.g. the English alphabet, the French alphabet, etc. When we have the alphabet in mind, we also associate them with the readings; as in 'ei-bi-si-di' or 'a-be-se-de.'

Could we not use a similar convention of calling the kanji script Chinese (not thinking much about the readings, but just the script) but calling the script associated with the reading (or the kokuji, homegrown kanji style characters) Japanese ? The long, heavy words Sino-Japanese would cover both the script and the sounds altogether, but that is too cumbersome and pedantic (not popular). So how about the following ?

kanji 漢字 = (Classical) Chinese characters, Sino-Japanese characters
wabun 和文 = Chinese characters with Japanese readings, Sino-Japanese readings

[TwistedMac]

sure. now you go preach it to the masses.

[lexico]

sure. now you go preach it to the masses.What is that supposed to mean, Mac ? Too complicated ? :?
Some geeks might buy it. No ?
Come on, don't hold back: I won't bite. :)

[TwistedMac]

I mean noone except the people that are annoyed about this whole thing will even care, so if you want people to use that, you're going to have to literally beat it into their heads :P

Even if we learn to discern it here, that won't stop the rest of the world from keeping on bugging the people it annoys :P

[lexico]

So true ! So true ! But we could try today, and tomorrow, and the day after, on and on. Gentle and unrelentling persuasion is known to be effective; tiring but effective. :p

[budd]

"so if you want people to use that, you're going to have to literally beat it into their heads"
who dat? op? he just be propaganding that's all
its like my grandma + ma telling me to wear a tie to church

[lexico]

Actually I would have better things to do than trying to indoctrinate.
But reading the question and replies, it dawned upon me that there is no clear language distinquishing the two, or is there ?
At least don't people deserve a way to express all the different distinctions if they wanted ?
This thread could help to explore the possibilities of existing English words, sinojapanese loans into English, or coinages if necessary.
For everyday, loose conversation, so be it; for precise communication ???
I think that's a legitimate request, isn't it ?

Edit: Here's another way of putting it. It's quite okay if some people engage in lazy talk.

It's not okay when there's no way to be precise because it debases communication. Why condone a systemic glitch to spread ignorance when clear language is possible ?

[Rich303]

I think in general there are many people who get it all wrong when it comes to Japan and other asian countries. I'm not sure if my dad knows the difference between China and Japan.
It doesn't matter how much I bore him, talking about Japan (when I'm trying to make conversation in the pub),he still gets mixed up.

Recently when I was getting ready to go out to a restaurant, he was complaining about how long I was taking in the bathroom.
I've told him my penpal is Japanese in the past, but he teased me by saying I was only taking so long over my hair because there would be chinese women where we were going. But we were going to a Thai restaurant!

I'm sorry to say he is in the 'they're all the same to me' brigade.