Should JAPAN be selective about asylum and immigration?

[jihadjay]

Should Japan be selective about asylum and immigration?


Before concentrating on Japan, let us focus on multi-ethnic and mutli-racial nations, and then see what problems this may bring to Japan.

Now it is clear that the United States is the most dynamic economic nation in the world, yet her foundation was mainly based on massive Christian migration which fused together the sucess that became the United States. Of course other migrants went to this land, notably Jews and the Chinese, and of course slaves were taken against their will; yet the binding factor of the United States was a shared Christian heritage and the need to keep religion out of government.

Yet the United States, like France, the United Kingdom, and other multi-ethnic nations in modern times are plagued with enormous social problems. For example Beirut and the Lebanese civil war was bloody; yet the entire total dead in this conflict relates to the same amount of murders that takes place every year in the United States. And crime in major cities in the UK and France are real problems, while many communities are divided on religous or ethnic grounds. At the same time drug problems are major issues and high crime rates.

If we look at Indonesia and Nigeria, both multi-ethnic and multi-religious, then it is clear that these nations are divided by Islam and Christianity, and ethnic groups within these nations of the same religion also clash. For example Aceh Muslims are being killed by the Indonesian armed forces, while tensions remain in the Spice Islands and West Papua between Christians and Muslims.

Therefore, multi-ethnic nations and multi-religious nations can create countless negative problems; and given this, shouldn't Japan be selective about immigration and asylum in order to maintain confucian ethics of social order, which is fused with Shinto and Buddhist ways in Japan?

This implies that Japan should allow skilled workers if shortages are apparent in certain sectors. While asylum could be based on shared Buddhist values. Given this, asylum and immigration could be focused on Chinese migrants/asylum seekers, Koreans (high Christian population), and other nations like Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam which are mainly Buddhist.

By doing this, Japan will preserve her confucian ethics of social harmony which is fused with Shinto and Buddhism. At the same time, skilled workers would benefit Japan and not be a drain on resources.

Of course negative attitudes towards the Chinese and Koreans within Japan would have to be tackled. Yet this policy may benefit Japan!


Lee Jay Walker Dip BA MA

[Matthew C. Perry]

Excellent post. Yes, Japan should certainly continue to be selective in asylum and immigration. Japan's much maligned immigration system actually works far better than that of America, or most European countries.

[Shidenkai]

I'm in total agreement with you.
A martal poison for Japanese System is the alien ethnic religion of other Countryes, like Middle East or even Europe. The negative attitude of Johannes Paulus II against China and Japan, must be a remark for Japanese Administration and People, 'cause if Japan will become a multiethnic society, his end like a united and great nation will be sonn.
Luckily, the real situation is distant from this conjecture; but I hope that the Japanese Govern will go on the street of a true discrimination of immigrated citizen and tourist.

[bossel]

Therefore, multi-ethnic nations and multi-religious nations can create countless negative problems; and given this, shouldn't Japan be selective about immigration and asylum in order to maintain confucian ethics of social order, which is fused with Shinto and Buddhist ways in Japan?

This implies that Japan should allow skilled workers if shortages are apparent in certain sectors. While asylum could be based on shared Buddhist values. Given this, asylum and immigration could be focused on Chinese migrants/asylum seekers, Koreans (high Christian population), and other nations like Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam which are mainly Buddhist.

1st you should not mix asylum & immigration issues. Asylum is a human right! If you don't know what it means, look here:
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

Quote:
"Article 14 1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."

There is also a Declaration on Territorial Asylum:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_asylum.htm

In article 14 you see the word "everyone", this means that you are not allowed to discriminate regarding ethnicity, religion or whatever. There are restrictions, but based on "acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations".


Immigration is a completely different issue. Every country has the right to decide who to let in. But even here it is rather short-sighted to be too restrictive. Most industrialized countries will need the influx of immigrants (who are mostly rather young & tend to have more children than the original inhabitants) to keep their social systems intact. For the birth rates are too low, too many old people may lead to a collapse of current systems.
I don't know in how far this already happens in Japan (I heard that birth rates are dropping), but it's a problem they also will face sooner or later.

Cultural values change over time. What do you want to do? Preserve Japan as it is now or as it was 100 years ago? Do you want to create a huge open-air museum?

Regarding Europe & immigration: the problems are highly exaggerated.
Drug problems are a major issue in the US, not so much in Europe. Same goes for high crime rates, which are anyway not really related to immigration but to poverty & social circumstances.

[Shidenkai]

Regarding Europe & immigration: the problems are highly exaggerated.
You are a optimist! :giggle:
Europe will suicide with immigration tollerance.

[Mandylion]

Everyone should take a moment to reread Bossels post and check out the links. Bossel is in a better position to comment on those aspects of the issues so I will leave that to Bossel.

If you haven't read these articles on Migration (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/special/migration/) from the BBC, please take a moment and have a look.

Reading Jihadjay's list of problems and solutions, I can only see how the proposed cure will make the patient even sicker.

shouldn't Japan be selective about immigration and asylum in order to maintain confucian ethics of social order, which is fused with Shinto and Buddhist ways in Japan? Japan does not guide its immigration policy by politico-religious associations. The above concepts you mention are nebulious even to the Japanese themselves. The average person does not walk around asking themselves if this or that fits into their "confucian ethics of social order." It is counterproductive to superimpose a system of exclusion based on a philiosophy that hasn't been activly supported since around 1868. Undoubtably Japanese culture has been influenced and shaped by the things you mention, but saying Japan should guide immigration by long-inactive philospohies is like saying Old World Puritanism should sweep America because the original immigrants were hard-core Puritans. Time and people change. We should not pigeonhole Japan into some romantic ideal.

This implies that Japan should allow skilled workers if shortages are apparent in certain sectors. Japan has shown a general inability to act fast in economic matters. Just look at the banking system. Now imagine having to retool not only an immigration system but also a social structure to attract and retain migrant workers. By the time Japan selectivly opens its doors and closes them again, the damage would have already been done and the skilled labor too late to fix any problem quickly. To respond effectivly to market pressures, you need a pool of workers to draw from. This can only be done by allowing and encouraging controlled immigration consistantly and over a sustained period of time.

While asylum could be based on shared Buddhist values. Given this, asylum and immigration could be focused on Chinese migrants/asylum seekers, Koreans (high Christian population), and other nations like Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam which are mainly Buddhist. To start with, this ignores the fact that Japanese Buddhism is very different from Buddhism in the other countries you mention. Most Japanese people would even seem un-religious in comparison. Plus, when you start granting asylum on relgious grounds, you polarize the world into political and social spheres based on a belief system - even more so than it already is. We are already having enough trouble getting along; we don't need to draw further lines between us.

By doing this, Japan will preserve her confucian ethics of social harmony which is fused with Shinto and Buddhism. At the same time, skilled workers would benefit Japan and not be a drain on resources.The people in Japan I have come across who think this way, would rather see no immigration at all. The others don't feel foreigners are a threat to "Japanese-ness." If Japan want's to protect its culture, they needs to start preserving it themsleves. I have met fewer groups that are better at concreting over their history and ignoring the past. A group that consists of less than 2% of the total population is the least of Japan's problems when it comes to issues of cultural identity.

Periods of migration have always caused concern within a host nation at first. To quote Dr. Shrover of Leiden University "Over time, the settled population has feared that newcomers would dilute the original culture, spoil the morals, steal their women (not their men of course) and bastardise the language...Fear of migrants rests upon the fear of change, and especially changes to culture. Culture is, however, not a fixed concept. Cultures change continuously over time. The cultures as we know them today are the result of centuries of migration. But at least in Europe (apparently), two or three generations after the initial migration, people are no longer viewed as a problem. This is because each time new groups of migrants arrived, they were considered even more problematic and different then their predecessors. Hardly a solution, but it shows that over time a group can be assimilated into the larger national body if given half a chance.

The problem with Japan is that the government, with an insular mindset, wants little to do with any group of immigrants - from Asia, Europe, Africa, North America, or Mars. This is not due to some high-flying ideal of preserving Japanese culture or history, but just plain dis-ease with progressive change.

Japan is no paradise and neither are western nations. It is a grave, grave oversimplification to say immigration = social decline. History just has not shown that to be true. Any mass migration causes tensions, but given enough time, the host nation come out stronger and better for the trouble (in ways too tangental to go into here - check out that BBC article).

It always helps to remember when looking at social issues in Japan that society went from a pseudo-feudal footing to full-modern in about 40 years. It took Europe around 400 years. By the end of the 1800's Japan was taking on world powers and winning.

However, it is easy to politically and economically reorganize a nation. Social change always takes much longer. I won't go into the English Civil Wars and the century or so it took to establish in practice the rights of man, but the point is you cannot expect a nation to come out of complete isolation and be on an even social footing in a century for what others have been working on much, much longer.

[bossel]

Europe will suicide with immigration tollerance.
On the contrary: if Europe doesn't go for immigration, that would be suicide (on the long run). Eg. the German population would be shrinking without immigration. There are estimates that population will fall from 82 million now to 73 million in 2050. The German pension system is quite stable for now, but problems will increase the less payers & the more beneficiaries there are.

Similar developments are going on (& projected for the future) all over Europe (& in Japan), German population growth at the moment is -0.1%, the Europe-wide average is -0.2%.

BTW, Mandylion's link to the BBC is really recommendable!

[Ulubatli]

I have tens of grad students in Japan. They are Turk and i haven't heard any of them complaining about immigration services. They quite easily got into Japan.

After reading all the massages above, I had a notion that Turks are much more welcome to Japan than any other nationalities, or is it easy for my friends just because they are grad students?

And also my friends are advicing me to join them, i am thinking of it now... They say Japanese people very much resemble Turks and that i will have little cultural problem than that of Americans or Europeans...

If Japans do not apply precautions, Japan will be the second mainland of Turks in 50 years... :) :cool:

[Mandylion]

After reading all the massages above, I had a notion that Turks are much more welcome to Japan than any other nationalities, or is it easy for my friends just because they are grad students?

Your friends had an easy time because they are students sponsored by a school who have, in effect, told the Ministry of Justice that they will vouch for them. They didn't have an easy time of it just because they are from Turkey.

Japan loves short-term sponsored workers/students/visitors because they are just that - they will be going back to where they came from fairly soon. Becoming a permanent resident is a very, very different ballgame.

Please come to Japan, Ulabatli and enjoy yourself :) It is a great place and a wonderful experience.

[DaMo]

I think the best way to deal with legitimate asylum seekers is to settle them in refugee-only economically self-sufficient seclusion zones (preferably islands), until the situation in their home countries cools down, whereupon they will be returned to their native lands.

[bossel]

I think the best way to deal with legitimate asylum seekers is to settle them in refugee-only economically self-sufficient seclusion zones (preferably islands), until the situation in their home countries cools down, whereupon they will be returned to their native lands.
Bugger me! You mean something like elaborate concentration camps?
Well, besides the impracticality (economically self-sufficient?) of your idea, I think, this is not really fitting the essence of the right on asylum.

[blade]

Some of you guys are intimidated by a multi ethnic nation. Some of you are ignorant to the fact that there are nations out there such as Canada that are a complete success story when it comes to immigrants because Canada is one of the best countries to live in, due the fact that immigrants are the ones that help build this great nation. Yeah we do have our problems no doubt but if Japan looks at Canada as an example they will have more Pakistani's, Sri lankins, Jamaicans, Indian and others from around the world making Japan the # 1 2 or 3 nation just like Canada. I am teaching my Japanese students about black history and the benifits of others coming into your nation and making it better then it is now and they are listening.

[Wang]

The United States and Canada were created and built by immigrants who came from all over the world.

[Caim]

I actually did hear a lot that Turkish people were given an easier time in Japan. Like my japanese friends, whenever I would ask their families about foreigners in Japan in general they would always point out Turkish people and stuff. And my Korean friend went to Japan for three months and when she came back the first thing she said to me was, "Omg they love Turkish people!"

It kind of caught me off guard.

[Yamatoblue]

On the contrary: if Europe doesn't go for immigration, that would be suicide (on the long run). Eg. the German population would be shrinking without immigration. There are estimates that population will fall from 82 million now to 73 million in 2050. The German pension system is quite stable for now, but problems will increase the less payers & the more beneficiaries there are.

Similar developments are going on (& projected for the future) all over Europe (& in Japan), German population growth at the moment is -0.1%, the Europe-wide average is -0.2%.

BTW, Mandylion's link to the BBC is really recommendable!
Ja, aber viele Deutsche hassen die Auslander...ich erinnere mich wenn ich ein kleiner Junge (1992-1996) war haben mich Leute "Auslander" genennt...:(
Die Auslander sind gut fur die Deutsche Wirtschaftlichkeit aber es kann man vielen Deutschen nicht erklaren. Die denken das die "Auslander" ihre Arbeit nehmen vollen.

Caim: Turkish People have a lot of history in Japan. The biggest mosque in Tokyo's is called a "Turkish Culture Center," I forgot which ku it is in. There's a mosque in Hachiouji-shi, one in Shibuya-ku. I think the turkish one is in Shibuya-ku. ANyways, Turkish people have a long history in Japan, and there are many Japanese tourists in Turkey. Many Turkish salespeople and clerks have learned Japanese.

[celtician]

Wow we've got some real Jap fascists coming out of the woodwork like "Shinden'Kamikazi"kai

[bossel]

Ja, aber viele Deutsche hassen die Auslander...ich erinnere mich wenn ich ein kleiner Junge (1992-1996) war haben mich Leute "Auslander" genennt...:(
Well, I don't know which nationality you are, but if you are not German, you are an Ausländer (= foreigner). There is no particular negative connotation. It very much depends on the people who say it, though. The amount of people who hate foreigners is not extraordinary high in Germany. I think, the rate of racists in the population is up to 15% (to varying degrees, violent racists are less than 0.1%), which is pretty much the same all over Western Europe, AFAIK.

Die Auslander sind gut fur die Deutsche Wirtschaftlichkeit aber es kann man vielen Deutschen nicht erklaren. Die denken das die "Auslander" ihre Arbeit nehmen vollen.
That's true, actually. A lot of people do think that foreigners are taking Germans' jobs. But most people know that this is not really the case.

[Yamatoblue]

Bossel, ich komme aus Bosnien.
Naturlich bin ich in Auslander...aber in Deutschland (ich lebte in Niedersachsen, in einer kleinen Stadt, "Melle") ist das Wort etwas sehr schrekliches. Zum beispiel, ich hatte einen Freund der mit mir spielen wurde, und wenn seine Mutter mich sehen wurder wurde sie mich uberhaupt nicht angucken...warum denn? Ich werde ihr nichts tun...ich war doch 7 jahre alt! Naja, sowieso ich hoffe das die situation mit den Auslandern jetzt besser ist...bossel, woher in Deutschland lebst du?
Ich wurde gern zuruck zu Deutschland kommen aber ich jetzt muss ich hier in den Staaten zur Schule gehen. :relief:

[Gaijin 06]

Now it is clear that the United States is the most dynamic economic nation in the world, yet her foundation was mainly based on massive Christian migration which fused together the sucess that became the United States. Of course other migrants went to this land, notably Jews and the Chinese, and of course slaves were taken against their will; yet the binding factor of the United States was a shared Christian heritage and the need to keep religion out of government.

Yet the United States, like France, the United Kingdom, and other multi-ethnic nations in modern times are plagued with enormous social problems

Your post is a complete mish-mash, and I havn't got time to point out all the consistencies, and I see others are doing so. In this short passage two things jump out though:

The US has only developed into a super-power since mass-immigration started, and it is widely recognised that immigration has been one of the keys to that success.

Also - the US hardly keeps religion out of politics - or have you never heard Dubya give a speech? The nation that is most secular (and I admire most in this aspect) - France - is cited by you as having enormous social problems.

[MiCC]

Some of you guys are intimidated by a multi ethnic nation. Some of you are ignorant to the fact that there are nations out there such as Canada that are a complete success story when it comes to immigrants because Canada is one of the best countries to live in, due the fact that immigrants are the ones that help build this great nation. Yeah we do have our problems no doubt but if Japan looks at Canada as an example they will have more Pakistani's, Sri lankins, Jamaicans, Indian and others from around the world making Japan the # 1 2 or 3 nation just like Canada. I am teaching my Japanese students about black history and the benifits of others coming into your nation and making it better then it is now and they are listening.


pesonally i dont think its a good idea to have many other ethnic people coming to your country. it is a proven fact that multi-ethnic countries have more social problems that homogenus countries. btw i dont think Japanese would want foreigners to take over their countries just my two cent

[nurizeko]

Bugger me! You mean something like elaborate concentration camps?
Well, besides the impracticality (economically self-sufficient?) of your idea, I think, this is not really fitting the essence of the right on asylum.

Hardly a concentration camp if a whole island thats got plenty of food and shelter is given up for them, bossel dont be fooled.

Asylum is for the persicuted not a handy way to sneak into a country like its ussually abused for.

All asylum needs to provide is a safe location with all the basic human needs for the asylum seeker to live in safety and relative happyness, un-molested until such a time as they may return.

If they want to immigrate to countries, well, thats what immigration laws and the proper official routes to immigrate are for.

Also some islands are fairly big, i know your in germany so you dont have many of them but, their hardly tiny concentration camps.

Some of you guys are intimidated by a multi ethnic nation. Some of you are ignorant to the fact that there are nations out there such as Canada that are a complete success story when it comes to immigrants because Canada is one of the best countries to live in, due the fact that immigrants are the ones that help build this great nation. Yeah we do have our problems no doubt but if Japan looks at Canada as an example they will have more Pakistani's, Sri lankins, Jamaicans, Indian and others from around the world making Japan the # 1 2 or 3 nation just like Canada. I am teaching my Japanese students about black history and the benifits of others coming into your nation and making it better then it is now and they are listening.

FAILED.

You sound exactly like those harping american patriots with lots of nice sounding buzz but little fact, but your a Canadian, you have even less basis to be all rpoud and puffed up then Americans.

No-ne cares if Canada is full of purplians.

That's true, actually. A lot of people do think that foreigners are taking Germans' jobs. But most people know that this is not really the case.

No its true, its just their taking jobs germans feel are below them, or their simply too lazy to take themselves.

If you think your too good for the likes of a crappy cleaners job, a foreigner will be more then happy to take it.


The US has only developed into a super-power since mass-immigration started, and it is widely recognised that immigration has been one of the keys to that success.

Failed.

It was Japan pushing America suddenly into world war 2 that made it a big success.

And what with blacks fighting for equal rights, japanese put away in detention camps, indians being abused and finally thrown into waste-land reservations, the immigrant communities all hiding in their own neighbourhoods of a city, america is hardly even close to the textbook example of multi-racial and cultural unity and success.

I know americans have been brought up to believe their country's ass smell's of roses and the sun shines out your ass but honestly, the united states has never been perfect.


Nothnig wrong with immigration and multi-ethnicity if a conutry is willing to make it work, still its hardly a crime if you want to keep your country for your own people, sure, it looks a bit selfish, but that could be said for the fgluttony of the west when thrid world people starve every day.
If Japan honetsly wants to stay fully japanese, then good luck to it,maybe the birth rate will come round suddenly.

Theres the vast majority of the world and at least two continents are fairly open to multi-culturalism, if Japan doesnt want us, then f**k it, no law requiring us to live there.

Still if you want to no harm in trying.

I probably cant live their myself, you need a college degree or some **** like that just to get a job....im sure it will look really great when my girlfriends future husband cant go to work because Japan has denied me the right to based on a ****** peice of paper. :/

Suffice to say if she doesnt want to live in the UK chances are its over.

Thanks alot japan you jerks.

[Gaijin 06]

..... still its hardly a crime if you want to keep your country for your own people, sure, it looks a bit selfish ......

If Japan honetsly wants to stay fully japanese, then good luck to it.....

...

Suffice to say if she doesnt want to live in the UK chances are its over.
Thanks alot japan you jerks.

How can you reconcile the first two statements with the last.

You start off by saying it's ok for Japan to stay Japanese, and decide their own immigration policy.

You end by saying you can't get in and they're all jerks?

[gaijinalways]

Quite a cat fight. I think based on the observations offered earlier, i.e. falling birth rate and also a growing elderly population, Japan has to allow in a larger pool of workers. Whether they decide to have a permanent set or not is up to them.

Hardly a concentration camp if a whole island thats got plenty of food and shelter is given up for them, bossel dont be fooled.

Asylum is for the persicuted not a handy way to sneak into a country like its ussually abused for.

All asylum needs to provide is a safe location with all the basic human needs for the asylum seeker to live in safety and relative happyness, un-molested until such a time as they may return.
If they want to immigrate to countries, well, thats what immigration laws and the proper official routes to immigrate are for.

Also some islands are fairly big, i know your in germany so you dont have many of them but, their hardly tiny concentration camps.

Nurizeko, you're not related to one of my students are you? When we discussed immigration issues in a debate/discussion class I taught, one student raised the issue of all foreigners in Japan living in separate areas.

Don't you realize many people that left their countries under asylum probably may never be able to return in their lifetimes? So how would imprisoning them on an island help this situation? A good example is a recent Afghanstani who decided to change his religion. A religious death sentence was issued. What sane person would want to return to that?

It was Japan pushing America suddenly into world war 2 that made it a big success.

I would agree that a military backed foreign policy has fueled some of the US success story, but hardly that Japan made the US successful. We've needed a lot of other wars to keep that part of the economy going, though recently, that has had the opposite affect with the Iraq 'war' plunging the US government into a cycle of 'patriotic debt'. The US technology and information age is what has fueled the US economy recently, and we are now looking for the next generation of commerce (possibly biotech?) to fuel an over leveraged economy.


To get back to the main topic, Japan doesn't deal well now with Koreans who were born here and visiting foreigners. Changing the average citizen's attitude to foreigners will take a long time, but that doesn't mean that no effort should be made to do it. As to how selective they should be in allowing people in, that is up to Japan, but losing its culture is an overstated fear in my opinion. It's this kind of paranoia that fuels Japanese xenophobia and reinforces their non-immigration policy (and also in turn perhaps reinforces the absence of Japanese as a major language in the world).

[nurizeko]

How can you reconcile the first two statements with the last.
You start off by saying it's ok for Japan to stay Japanese, and decide their own immigration policy.
You end by saying you can't get in and they're all jerks?

I said Japan can decide to make whatever policies it wants in regard to immigration, nobody else has the right to decide on Japan but the Japanese, i didnt say i agreed with it.

You fail.

[Tokyo-monster]

Now it is clear that the United States is the most dynamic economic nation in the world.

That is a load of political crap :)
Canada is BY FAR more dynamic than the United States, and everyone in the entire world seems to know this except for the US. And... an economic nation? The economy of the US is cracking.

[Tokyo-monster]

I fully agree with Nurizeko. <3

[kellymich]

Should Japan be selective about asylum and immigration?


I agree with your post jihaday.

Japan should stay primarily Japanese.

Modern Americans and Europeans are only taught about the benefits of multi ethnic and multi religious nations but not their drawbacks … It is because the west is desperately hoping that its current expiriment will “work out” and needs its citizens to endorse the idea. Hence, the strongly felt comments of some of the people on this forum.

My opinion is that if Japan allowed massive immigration it would cease to be japan. I think the japanese are wise to limit immigration.

I think japan will still be a dynamic force in 200 years... I am not so sure about america and europe.

[kellymich]

That is a load of political crap :)
Canada is BY FAR more dynamic than the United States, and everyone in the entire world seems to know this except for the US. And... an economic nation? The economy of the US is cracking.

Canada is a country of around 30 million. the United states is a country of around 300 million.

There is no comparision ... except that canada is, or at least was when I visited it 15 years ago, a nicer place.

[Maciamo]

Japan is already extremelt selective by Western standards regarding asylum seekers and refugees. I started a thread on this topic (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1055) 4 years ago almost day to day.

As for regular immigration, most of the foreign residents and naturalised Japanese are from Korea and China (see stats (http://www.jref.com/society/foreigners_in_japan.shtml)), so it does feel like they are being selective about the visas. The vast majority of permanent residents and naturalised Japanese are also Asian. Most Westerners only stay in Japan for a few months or years.

Japan does not yet have a significant (let's say over 1% of the population) minority group from one different ethnic* or religious origin, unlike most Western European countries which now have big Muslim communities (between 3 and 10% of the population depending on the country). The largest ethnic and religious minority are the Catholic South Americans, which make up about 0.2% of the total population.

* I consider the Koreans and Chinese to belong to the same ethnicity as the Japanese, as it is too hard to tell them apart, especially if they all speak fluently Japanese.

[yukio_michael]

I've also written about it several times on this site. Japan's immigration system is a separate issue (if one exists) to that of their (very poor) record of Asylum. To those interested, I'll refer you (again) to this very well written article here:

Part One: Here (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=17&ItemID=9778)

Part Two: ...here (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9779)

Here is at least one of the threads started by Maciamo:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1055

Personally, I don't feel that this some sort of issue that should even be debated. Accepting those who seek asylum due to unjust threat to their very lives is a basic tenet of the ideals of human rights, & should be followed by any country which wishes to respect and preserve those rights.

It's sadly coincidental that it was a Japanese woman whom recently tried to abuse the Asylum laws in order to preserve her stay within Australia... The thread in which I wrote about this particular subject is also somewhere here on JREF.

[kellymich]

I've also written about it several times on this site. Japan's immigration system is a separate issue (if one exists) to that of their (very poor) record of Asylum. To those interested, I'll refer you (again) to this very well written article here:


Personally, I don't feel that this some sort of issue that should even be debated. Accepting those who seek asylum due to unjust threat to their very lives is a basic tenet of the ideals of human rights, & should be followed by any country which wishes to respect and preserve those rights.
It's sadly coincidental that it was a Japanese woman whom recently tried to abuse the Asylum laws in order to preserve her stay within Australia... The thread in which I wrote about this particular subject is also somewhere here on JREF.

Well, quite clearly yuko the Japanese don’t want a lot of immigration in their country and they don’t want to become a dumping ground for the worlds poor.

In this day and age that is a pretty big ground with the world population at 6 billion and expected to rise to 9 billion by the year 2050.

I do think that, for example, if America continues down the
road she is going with projections of 1 billion people by the year 2100 largely from immigration from 3rd world countries America may become virtually unlivable. It is a legitimate topic.

I think that Japan, like Russia who is also careful about immigration, have a history of what it means to be a defeated nation and a defeated people. They also understand the importance of being a unified people in times of trouble. I think the Japanese have a right to self determination. When a natural disaster strikes a country like japan, everybody pulls together. When a natural disaster strikes america, people shoot at the rescue helicopters and loot the city.

To say that the Japanese have no right to debate the issue is flat out wrong. The Japanese, in any event, are always very careful about the things they do … I believe they have chosen a wise course of action, the only sane and far sighted option available to them. A culture like japan thinks 100’s of years backwards and 100’s of years forward. The United States with 200 short years of history can barely think 5 years ahead.

I'm sorry, but despite western criticism and western liberal values, I think the japanese are very wise on this issue.

[Maciamo]

I'm sorry, but despite western criticism and western liberal values, I think the japanese are very wise on this issue.

I totally agree. If only more European politicians could understand that...

[nurizeko]

The only catch is Japan's crashing birth-rate, I'm sure it will be entirely feesable for Japan to maintain a strict anti-immigration policy as its population plummets and its unable to find the labour to maintain its precious place in the world economy.

[pipokun]

I do think that, for example, if America continues down the
road she is going with projections of 1 billion people by the year 2100 largely from immigration from 3rd world countries America may become virtually unlivable. It is a legitimate topic.

That unlivable America is much more confortable than present Japan.

[nice gaijin]

Just a thought on statistics, if population density is the determining factor of a livable country...

At around 130 million inhabitants in Japan, that's about 890 people per square mile. with 300 million inhabitants, the US's population density is one tenth of that. Assuming that the US population does more than triple in the next century (to 1 billion), the population density would still be only about 270 people per square mile. That's still less than a third of Japan, assuming the population of Japan remains unchanged (and that we're not all under water by 2100...)

Or was the implication that such a population boom brought on by rampant immigration would lower the standard of living because said immigrants would bring their quality of life to the US (as someone said, "a dumping ground for the worlds poor")?

[kellymich]

Just a thought on statistics, if population density is the determining factor of a livable country...
At around 130 million inhabitants in Japan, that's about 890 people per square mile. with 300 million inhabitants, the US's population density is one tenth of that. Assuming that the US population does more than triple in the next century (to 1 billion), the population density would still be only about 270 people per square mile. That's still less than a third of Japan, assuming the population of Japan remains unchanged (and that we're not all under water by 2100...)
Or was the implication that such a population boom brought on by rampant immigration would lower the standard of living because said immigrants would bring their quality of life to the US (as someone said, "a dumping ground for the worlds poor")?

Yes, that’s a valid point. But the japanese have a culture and a unity which allows them to live cheek and jowl. Ironically, many people on this board are criticizing them for not wanting to change the culture that allows so many japanese to live peacefully and in close proximity.

But lets consider India -- at the turn of the century india had 200 million people… they now have around 1 billion people. This came from internal population growth from a country with centuries of traditions. Neverthless, very few westerners would want to trade places with the life of the average Indian.

Even with 300 million people america is coming a apart at the seams with racial tensions, gangs, drugs use etc. etc. As an example, in california's once vaunted public education system 1 out of 3 children now drop out.

I don’t think it can be denied the importance of culture for a stable and prosperous America … and no matter where anybody stands on the subject, I think they would have to admit that adding another 700 million people of different races and cultures to america sucessfully is going to be no small feat. To me, the idea seems somewhat mad.

I would prefer that america focus on quality, and not on quantity.

I recently took a tour though the underbelly of los angeles, its prisons, its asylums, its slums, and it doesn't take genius to see the tremendous destructive tensions that exist as a result of America's experiments as well as the 1000's of lives that are being lost. I compared my trip in los angeles to my experiences in europe and in japan and I came to the conclusion that the situation in los angeles is quite grave culturally compared to societies like Japan and even Germany.

I think we need to begin to ask ourselves, what is the goal of our society and what kind of people do we wish to produce and value ? Culture is a very important thing.

[nurizeko]

The problem is human males are constantly fertile and females fertile for a bit every month, and ontop of our relatively frequent sexual activity and ability to enjoy it, its just asking to over-populate.

What the human race needs is more stricter checks on our ability to spawn little nooblets.


On a plus side, as Japanese population falls and the economy falls, causing quality of life to fall, there will be higher incidents of less edumacated people, and more people with less demands on their time *cough*perhapsunemployed*cough* and therefore more making fun sexy times which would arrest the freefall and bring the population up, perhaps it is a halway effective natural check on our numbers, who knows.

[/rant]

[yukio_michael]

Well, quite clearly yuko the Japanese don’t want a lot of immigration in their country and they don’t want to become a dumping ground for the worlds poor.What part of my post did you miss where I stipulated the difference between ASYLUM & IMMIGRATION.

The problems with American immigration is that if say an illegal immigrant gives birth to a child, that child becomes a naturalized American citizen, at a certain age, that child's parent will also then become a citzen, as well as grandmothers etcetera...

Imigration in Europe is different entirely, where you have a country like Italy whose onus it is to stem the tide of immigrants from countries within Africa...

I do think that, for example, if America continues down the road she is going with projections of 1 billion people by the year 2100 largely from immigration from 3rd world countries America may become virtually unlivable.So you're saying that the tide of foreignern hordes washing upon the shores of the Americas will destabilize it, simply by force? You're probably not the first person to make this assumption... There simply needs to be a set of fair & humane immigration laws that deal with those who want to honestly integrate into the country. I find it a shame that a good portion of foreign residents chose to speak to their children in their native languages first, and English only secondary... Often, the parents are not even able to speak English and use their children as proxies... In Japan, raising a child like this would be considered not simply ludicrous, but almost like a form of developmental retardation.

It is a legitimate topic.Immigration may be a legitmate topic, but you seem to have either not read my post at all, or misunderstood the word "asylum", or the post in general.

I think that Japan, like Russia who is also careful about immigration, have a history of what it means to be a defeated nation and a defeated people.Yes, in Russia and the former Soviet Union, there is also a deep rooted amount of racism towards many different peoples... So, motives like this aren't good for dealing w/ Immigration... simply because it makes you feel better about yourselves as a nation.

To say that the Japanese have no right to debate the issue is flat out wrong.Please show my where I even sugested that any nation had no right to debate it's own immigration issues, please.


A culture like japan thinks 100’s of years backwards and 100’s of years forward. The United States with 200 short years of history can barely think 5 years ahead.Japan, like the United States makes descisions on immigration in order to not just preserve a type of culture, but to improve it in the future... This 100 years back and forth nonsense is simply that, nonsense.

I totally agree. If only more European politicians could understand that...I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what you are agreeing with... Is it that the intent of immigration control is to prevent the dilution of a nation's cultural base, lest it be corrupted?

I suppose that these are the types of ideas that lead nations like France to institute a policy that everyone migrating to France (largely because they are filling skilled technical jobs which are not being filled by native French for some reason[...] I'll let readers ponder that.) to adopt propper adoption of the accepted ideals of 'French culture', beyond simply language.*

*I'd like to note that language-adoption should be a minimum requirement for immigration to a country, and the United States fails completely in this aspect as far as immigration is concerned.

[kellymich]

What part of my post did you miss where I stipulated the difference between ASYLUM & IMMIGRATION.

Asylum has been used and abused in the western countries and a large proportion of asylum seekers are little more than legal immigrants
.
So you're saying that the tide of foreignern hordes washing upon the shores of the Americas will destabilize it, simply by force? You're probably not the first person to make this assumption... There simply needs to be a set of fair & humane immigration laws that deal with those who want to honestly integrate into the country. I find it a shame that a good portion of foreign residents chose to speak to their children in their native languages first, and English only secondary... Often, the parents are not even able to speak English and use their children as proxies... In Japan, raising a child like this would be considered not simply ludicrous, but almost like a form of developmental retardation.

I am saying that even the most ardent supporter of immigration cannot deny the enormous problems that will come with 700 million new people in america of differing ethnicities, cultures, religions etc. etc. It very well may prove to be utterly ruinous to the country. It will largely depend on the culture of the nation, but with so many different cultures and interests, it will be very hard to have anything on a wide scale but a shared lowest comman denominator and factional interests based on race, language, and perhaps religion. After the movements of the 1960's we had all hoped and expected that race would cease to be such a prevailing motive and yet racial tensions between blacks, whites, and hispanics are probably worse now than they were in the 1970's and 1980's. Perhaps the situation can improve but the extremists are working overtime these days to polarize the various groups.

Yes, in Russia and the former Soviet Union, there is also a deep rooted amount of racism towards many different peoples... So, motives like this aren't good for dealing w/ Immigration... simply because it makes you feel better about yourselves as a nation.

There are many prejudices and biases among peoples of all nations.
I have travelled a good deal and all peoples have at least some bias and prejudices based upon race and culture.

Most africans, chinese, japanese and indians that I have met would fit into modern definitions of racist. if I were to try to become a zimbaweian, a chinese, a korean, a japanese I would always suffer from the fact that racially and culturally I am not quite "one of them".

I would point out that the Russian people have lived under the most dire circumstances for 100’s of years. To them, issues of national identity and culture are not mere intellectual exercises. They have felt the sting and the horror of culture gone sour, of invasions, and have experienced the darkest side of man’s potential for tyranny. I think it is understandable for them to be reluctant to cavalierly introduce the wild card of multiculturalism and excessive immigration to their country. The Russian people like any other people have the right to self determination. If they wish to remain a people that is their right. This does not mean that they necessarily hate other nations or other peoples.

Japan, like the United States makes descisions on immigration in order to not just preserve a type of culture, but to improve it in the future... This 100 years back and forth nonsense is simply that, nonsense..

I don't think that it is nonsense... culture doesn't just happen. But to a rootless american, I can see why it might seem nonsense.

Japanese subtleties and customs developed over centuries. They are customs and subtleties which could not have possibly developed in a country like the united states. The incomparably high artistic developments in japan could only come about in a nation with centuries of living tradition passed down and refined from generation to generation. In the united states, because of the nature of its society whenever anything is constellated it is quickly overthrown and very little of real value is ever created. In a country of 300 million people the question why the majority of America’s artists are the worst in the world answers itself, if you take a look at the culture. Culture does need to move forward, but it can't develop in a vacuum and spring up from nothingness. High culture is always based on the developments of precursers and traditions. It is quite possible and even likely for culture to move backwards especially when you are dealing with the masses and the great numbers of the world. America had a few small beginings of a very real, distinct, and dynamic culture with Ralph Waldo Emerson, Walt Whitman, and the like, but it has come to nothing.

The reason people are so facinated by japan is the culture.

*I'd like to note that language-adoption should be a minimum requirement for immigration to a country, and the United States fails completely in this aspect as far as immigration is concerned.

I would agree with you that at least a basic requirement for a nation is language. If we don't have that than any kind of national unity is out of the question. Clearly something is going to have to pull people together if it is going to work. We are rushing headlong into massive and unprecedented changes which will change the entire ethnic and cultural makeup of america over a very short period of time. Given man's history, at the very least, we should admit that it will be very problematic. If we are going to do this, at the very least we need to go into it with our eyes wide open. I will be honest when I tell you that I personally fear the world that we are bequeathing to our decendants. Each generation of americans, up until this one, has expected that their generation would do a little better than the previous one. I don't think most american's feel that way anymore. If we listen carefully to what is going on in the public schools where incidentally 1 out of 3 students in california now drops out, in the universities, and in the newspapers I think we can understand why. What little national culture we ever had is falling to pieces, but it is not being replaced by something better.

Whether or not something constellates that can move america where it needs to be remains to be seen... but a nation is only as good as the quality and the psychological health of its people. Right now in the prototype of multiculuralism, los angeles, people have hunkered down into enclaves. Most people here have very little sense of community, or trust and anyone who is able sends their children to private schools. If the los angeles of today is the future of america, it is going to be an ugly future. Whether or not we can turn all this dross and all these disparate elements into gold remains to be seen. I am not for homogeneity, but some things have to pull a people and a nation together or else you have anarchy, civil war etc. etc.

If the situation in los angeles were different I would say so... but having been all over the world I think I am in a relatively good position to diagnose what is wrong with los angeles. You can't look at press releases and travel brochures, you have to go on the streets and among the people. I would say that the average man on the street of all races in los angeles has a deep sense of dislocation, fear and disquiet in this city -- they are trying to escape, to "get away". Most of them feel the only way to do that is to make lots of money.

[yukio_michael]

Asylum has been used and abused in the western countries and a large proportion of asylum seekers are little more than legal immigrants.Did you mean to say legal immigrants? Asylum seekers are people who fear agrievous harm or persecution should they return to their own countries. I don't doubt that people abuse the asylum system (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25201), however, this is no reason to simply deny people asylum. Japan's record on asylum is abysmal. Again, these aren't debatable issues, you simply have to look at the numbers.

I am saying that even the most ardent supporter of immigration cannot deny the enormous problems that will come with 700 million new people in america of differing ethnicities, cultures, religions etc. etc. It very well may prove to be utterly ruinous to the country.The United States was built by colonialists who built a nation upon the backs of refugees who sought a better life there. It's already multi-ethnic, in every way possible. At the federal level, the United States does not even have an official language. If you thought it was English, you were incorrect. I don't know where, and over what time frame you're getting the number of 700 milion, seventy percent of a billion immigrants, but I suspect it's just hyperbole to make your point seem more urgent.

[...]it will be very hard to have anything on a wide scale but a shared lowest comman denominator and factional interests based on race, language, and perhaps religion.Control of the interests of the United States is in the hands of the upper two to one percent who control the wealth, and has for the most part, always been. Their agendas are served first and foremeost, and much like the prolatariat in Orwell's 1984, the masses are either too dumbfounded, or too defeated to change this very much.

After the movements of the 1960's we had all hoped and expected that race would cease to be such a prevailing motive and yet racial tensions between blacks, whites, and hispanics are probably worse now than they were in the 1970's and 1980's.Really. How so? Please give me some indication that race relations are worse... When people are actually considering a black candidate for the presidency, they can't be too much worse. They certainly aren't as awful as the racial tensions which exist, and have existed in Europe.

Perhaps the situation can improve but the extremists are working overtime these days to polarize the various groups.Extremists have the internet, which is a wider audidence than one gained from photo-copied pamphlets. I don't know if there is any indication that they are working "overtime" or even any better at undermining race relations.

Most africans, chinese, japanese and indians that I have met would fit into modern definitions of racist. if I were to try to become a zimbaweian, a chinese, a korean, a japanese I would always suffer from the fact that racially and culturally I am not quite "one of them".Believe it or not, a lot of societies do not accept foreigners as "one of them". Englanders are known to still think of foreign residents as not truly being English, regardless of their nationality... But I don't want to go off on a tangent.

I would point out that the Russian people have lived under the most dire circumstances for 100’s of years.The've also inflicted a great deal of agony over the last few hundreds of years as well. Not just upon their own people, but on any who uposed them. An estimated seven to nine million people in the Ukraine were killed by Stalin, by effectively starving them to death through forced famine. Within the state you could look forward to being sent off to the Gulag archipelligo if your views seemed even remotely against it. But let's take a few moments to feel sorry for the dire circumstances of the Russian people, and how they got themselves there.

[...]and have experienced the darkest side of man’s potential for tyranny.Again, they've also been responsible for the darkest side of man's potential for tyranny... even recently. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko_poisoning) So much so, that I can't fathom how you can make this statement without the least bit of the acknowlegement of irony inherent to it. It would take a colossal effort to dismiss their actions throughout the history of communism--- It's impossible to talk about the Russian state, even at present, at a time when the oligarchs, men who rode the destruction of their own country to heights of great wealth seem to be at odds with Putin, without there being an intrinstic idea consistant with those of a tyranny, of either fear, or wealth or otherwise.

The Russian people like any other people have the right to self determination. If they wish to remain a people that is their right. This does not mean that they necessarily hate other nations or other peoples.Yes, this has nothing to do with asylum.

They are customs and subtleties which could not have possibly developed in a country like the united states.This statement isn't right, ...it's not even wrong. It simply has no meaning or bearing on the subject whatsoever.

The incomparably high artistic developments in japan could only come about in a nation with centuries of living tradition passed down and refined from generation to generation.Do you make a point of avoiding all history that is contrary to your own opinion, or do you simply espouse views like this that make it seem as if you do? I'm not even going to argue this statement. Yes, the artwork in Japan could only come from Japan. You've certainly got that right.

In the united states, because of the nature of its society whenever anything is constellated it is quickly overthrown and very little of real value is ever created.I know of thousands of authors, painters, and musicians who would feel quite at odds with this statement. I'm not going to give you a lesson on the history of American art, but you should look into it. What are you basing your opinions on? You seem to have the type of knowledge of American history that one might get from collecting matchbooks at a 50's style diner.

Each generation of americans, up until this one, has expected that their generation would do a little better than the previous one. I don't think most american's feel that way anymore.Yes, I agree with you 100%. This has nothing to do with racism, culture, or immigration however.

[...]but having been all over the world I think I am in a relatively good position to diagnose what is wrong with los angeles.I don't think you're in a relatively good position to find your own backside, honestly.

I could pick apart each of the things that you've said, and you've said so many, that are simply either hyperbole, agrandisement, opinion, or outright condemnation of a society you seem not to understand, but this seems fruitless...

You seem to me, to be a nationalistic, racist, historically-ignorant person. I know that this seems to be an insult, and I won't add a "please don't be offended"... But from the viewpoints you espouse, concerning the near perfection of the Japanese society, the asylum seekers you refer to as simply criminal rabble, your base and frankly limited knowlege of American history, right down to your own need to somehow justify Russia's own innocence, you seem to have qualified yourself for this label.

Asylum is a basic human right, and if you feel so, you also feel that any free country which respects human rights respects the great need to accept those who in truth are persecuted by their own countries.

Please see above. This is my point. Nothing you have said has had anything to do with it other than your specious claim that asylum seekers are simply immigrants, illegal or otherwise.

If you have something to respond allong these lines please do. Any other sort of subject matter will simply be ignored.

PS. I'll remind you, in one of your posts (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=337993#post337993), you praise James Clavell's novel Shogun, while dissmissing its historical inaccuracy (something you seem to brush aside as if it were not quite necissary...), as, I'm quoting you, a work of art.

I really don't feel you do find much need for historical accuracy, but I think I understand now more of your idea & appreciation for Western "art".

[nurizeko]

Modern Americans and Europeans are only taught about the benefits of multi ethnic and multi religious nations but not their drawbacks … It is because the west is desperately hoping that its current expiriment will “work out” and needs its citizens to endorse the idea. Hence, the strongly felt comments of some of the people on this forum.

Its not an experiment, its common sense.

I want to be able to just live and get on with things with my fellow man, white black or orange, without my friends or even relations being tormented and me aswell because of smething as insugnificant as skin colour.

You do relise how insugnificant that is?, the worlds problems are cultural & ignorance, not racial.

Its just common human respect, my mate "Bob" (not his real name) is a smart human being, he likes basket ball, he enjoys my type of music and wants to pass the same course I'm studying, he is born and bred within the UK, he comes from Montrose and consiros himself Scottish.

Should that be taken from him, should our friendship be frowned upon because he is of Chinese descent?.

Am I somehow criminally guilty for having sexual and emotional intimate relations with a Japanese girl?, am I instead of greeting an asian shop worker, to spit in his face and shout profanities at him because his skin is darker then mine?, am I to smack up a passing black man who otherwise has done me no offense because his skin is brown?.


Seriously, what planet do you live on?.


Dont mistake your views as fact, their based on noe thnig and one thing alone, pure ignorance.

A human being is a human being, the differences, are literally only skin deep.

As for ethnic tensions, these are caused by cultural differences.

[kellymich]

Did you mean to say legal immigrants? Asylum seekers are people who fear agrievous harm or persecution should they return to their own countries. I don't doubt that people abuse the asylum system however, this is no reason to simply deny people asylum. Japan's record on asylum is abysmal. Again, these aren't debatable issues, you simply have to look at the numbers. "

I know, I simply disagree that japan should be forced to accept "assylum seekers". With the world population at 6 billion and expected to be 9 billion by the year 2050 there are huge numbers of people at this very moment and their will be huge numbers in the future who face poverty and death for a variety of reasons ... it is ugly I know but the solution to these problems does not come from japan opening her country to everyone in the world who has a problem.

The United States was built by colonialists who built a nation upon the backs of refugees who sought a better life there. It's already multi-ethnic, in every way possible. At the federal level, the United States does not even have an official language. If you thought it was English, you were incorrect. I don't know where, and over what time frame you're getting the number of 700 milion, seventy percent of a billion immigrants, but I suspect it's just hyperbole to make your point seem more urgent.".

The population projections in America if legal and illegal immigration continue as it is for the year 2050 is around 500 million and for the year 2100 is around 1 billion. The size of the population of India.

By the year 2100 many demographers estimate there will be 700 million more people in America than today if current trends continue. Since 1970 to the present the population in America has gone up by 33% mostly because of immigration. It has gone from 200 million to 300 million.

Dont take my word for it. The statistics are easy enough to verify in the computer age.

Really. How so? Please give me some indication that race relations are worse... When people are actually considering a black candidate for the presidency, they can't be too much worse. They certainly aren't as awful as the racial tensions which exist, and have existed in Europe.


There are so many indications of worsening race relations for those who care to see the problem and not "look away" that I am surprised by your surprise. I would suggest for a start listening to the rethoric of black and latino politicians, talking to people on the streets of a city like los angeles, and even listening to the undercurrents in popular culture such as rap music which does not even make small attempts to disguise its race hatreds in this wildly popular "music" (I hope you understand my right to quotations). Even the mainstream media, never known for their courage regarding race relations, speaks of the two americas. Actually, there are now three quite polarized americas - white, black and latino.

Believe it or not, a lot of societies do not accept foreigners as "one of them". Englanders are known to still think of foreign residents as not truly being English, regardless of their nationality... But I don't want to go off on a tangent.

Um, I believe it. Nobody ever really accepts someone who is truly "not one of them". Never have, never will. It is not necessarily based on race.

Do you make a point of avoiding all history that is contrary to your own opinion, or do you simply espouse views like this that make it seem as if you do? I'm not even going to argue this statement. Yes, the artwork in Japan could only come from Japan. You've certainly got that right.

Well, do you think that if america were the only country in the world she could produce a bach, build a mayan temple, or create a shinto garden ? Not bloody likely my friend. What matters if we give every human being in the world a house and food and their lives are dull, harried, without meaning, and empty ?

I know of thousands of authors, painters, and musicians who would feel quite at odds with this statement. I'm not going to give you a lesson on the history of American art, but you should look into it. What are you basing your opinions on? You seem to have the type of knowledge of American history that one might get from collecting matchbooks at a 50's style diner.

For whatever it is worth I studied music composition at peabody conservatory in baltimore and have lived and worked among artists my entire life. One of the things I am vitally concerned about in america is its culture. Many artists in america feel or come to understand that the american art scene, generally speaking, cannot hold a candle to europe. The first thing that the american artist is astonished with when he goes to europe is that it produces mature artists ... the average american has never really been exposed to mature art... many of our best artists have had to travel to places like france before anything of any value could begin to occur to them. For example, Would we have produced a jessica lange and henry miller if they had been stuck in america ? I doubt it. The artist in america is an endangered species, he has nearly been hunted to extinction.

You seem to me, to be a nationalistic, racist, historically-ignorant person. I know that this seems to be an insult, and I won't add a "please don't be offended"... But from the viewpoints you espouse, concerning the near perfection of the Japanese society, the asylum seekers you refer to as simply criminal rabble, your base and frankly limited knowlege of American history, right down to your own need to somehow justify Russia's own innocence, you seem to have qualified yourself for this label.

You have put words in my mouth based on your own views and prejudices. My point is that I believe japan should have a policy to stay primarily japanese. I never said the japanese were perfect or near perfect. There are many needy and desperate people in the world and I do not condemn them because they are needy and desperate.

If you think that somehow the Russian confederation was different than the muslim confederations, or the Chinese confederation, or any other confederations and empires in human history, you are quite mistaken and perhaps the only place suitable for you to live is on the moon. If I understand you correctly, you have, it appears to me, perversely blamed the russian/soviet people for marxism stalinism and perhaps even hitler's invasion. It is not my job to provide a history of the soviet union but the majority of the Soviet/Russian people were undeniably victims of that period. To blame the soviet/russians is like blaming a rape victim for being raped. My point which you did not seem to understand is that the dark seed of the horrors that occurred in the soviet union lurks in every single human being on the planet ... all that is needed are the right conditions for it to grow. Any people like the soviets or the japanese who have suffered the things they did during that period will be naturally cautious about massive social changes and upheavals, -- as well they should be. Defeat is a great teacher.
.
B]Asylum is a basic human right, and if you feel so, you also feel that any free country which respects human rights respects the great need to accept those who in truth are persecuted by their own countries.[/B].
I disagree that a country "has to" accept a foreign citizen for assylum or for immigration.
PS. I'll remind you, in one of your posts[/URL], you praise James Clavell's novel Shogun, while dissmissing its historical inaccuracy (something you seem to brush aside as if it were not quite necissary...), as, I'm quoting you, a work of art.
I really don't feel you do find much need for historical accuracy, but I think I understand now more of your idea & appreciation for Western "art".

If you were to be fair to me you would see in that post I said shogun was not historically accurate ... therefore your claim that I don't find a need for historical accuracy is obviously false. I myself pointed out that it was not historically accurate.

Nevertheless historical accuracy or even morality and ethics has nothing to do with "good art". Good art, is good art.

What does king arthur and the round table or hieronymous bosch have to with the historical accuracy of medieval europe ? -- very little. What do they have to do with the human soul and values of medieval europe ? - quite a bit.

I'll defend the right of countries like japan for self determination and the right to a unique culture ... Japan does not have a moral obligation to become a New York City... Japan's obligation is to her history, her future, to her people, and to be a good member of the community of nations.

[yukio_michael]

If I understand you correctly, you have, it appears to me, perversely blamed the russian/soviet people for marxism stalinism and perhaps even hitler's invasion.I don't know how you could have formed this opinion based on what I've said. This is one of a few reasons why I'm keeping my word and dropping the discussion.

It's late and I'm not going to comb through all of the data, but just giving a cursory look, the information I get back from the Center for Disease Control (CDC)'s interface to US Census data predictions doesn't seem to match your predictions.

The predicted difference in population between 2004 & 2030 for all genders & ages is 70,783,864 about a tenth of your projections for until, did you say 2050 was it? This is of course based on, and I'm quoting the website here:

The projections are produced with the general assumption that recent state-specific trends in fertility, mortality, domestic migration, and international migration will continue.http://wonder.cdc.gov/WONDER/help/PopulationProjections.HTML

There's the link for anyone curious.

Thanks for the discussion.

[kellymich]

I don't know how you could have formed this opinion based on what I've said. This is one of a few reasons why I'm keeping my word and dropping the discussion.
It's late and I'm not going to comb through all of the data, but just giving a cursory look, the information I get back from the Center for Disease Control (CDC)'s interface to US Census data predictions doesn't seem to match your predictions.
The predicted difference in population between 2004 & 2030 for all genders & ages is 70,783,864 about a tenth of your projections for until, did you say 2050 was it? This is of course based on, and I'm quoting the website here:
There's the link for anyone curious.
Thanks for the discussion.

Well, you said-- “your base and frankly limited knowlege of American history, right down to your own need to somehow justify Russia's own innocence” … implies that Russia is somehow guilty and brought on herself the upheavals that occurred in her country.. The point I had originally made was that both Russia and Japan had suffered tremendous upheavals in the past and therefore they are understandably reticent to allow large numbers of foreign peoples to their shores.

US population data below from the census bureau ... this message board will not let me add the url. I would be happy to message it to you. There is a low range estimate, a middle range estimate and a high range estimate. The following is the high range estimate.

year 2000 275 million
year 2025 380 million
year 2050 552 million
year 2100 1 billion 182 million

Thank you as well, for the discussion.

[kellymich]

Its not an experiment, its common sense.

I want to be able to just live and get on with things with my fellow man, white black or orange, without my friends or even relations being tormented and me aswell because of smething as insugnificant as skin colour.

You do relise how insugnificant that is?, the worlds problems are cultural & ignorance, not racial.

Its just common human respect, my mate "Bob" (not his real name) is a smart human being, he likes basket ball, he enjoys my type of music and wants to pass the same course I'm studying, he is born and bred within the UK, he comes from Montrose and consiros himself Scottish.

Should that be taken from him, should our friendship be frowned upon because he is of Chinese descent?.

Am I somehow criminally guilty for having sexual and emotional intimate relations with a Japanese girl?, am I instead of greeting an asian shop worker, to spit in his face and shout profanities at him because his skin is darker then mine?, am I to smack up a passing black man who otherwise has done me no offense because his skin is brown?.


Seriously, what planet do you live on?.


Dont mistake your views as fact, their based on noe thnig and one thing alone, pure ignorance.

A human being is a human being, the differences, are literally only skin deep.

As for ethnic tensions, these are caused by cultural differences.

I am not saying you shouldn’t have a Japanese girlfriend or a black friend … you’re being a little melodramatic my friend.

We are all human beings... more or less. :-)

[MiCC]

yes they should, there are countries that wants to be a single race country, why can't the western people just let it go? they aren't causing any harm to other countries or promote hate against other races, they just want to preserve their race thats all. im not saying multicultural country is a bad idea.

its irony that america will become a one mixed race(asian/black/white/hispanic) in future is that label as one race country?

[Dr. J. M.]

yes they should, there are countries that wants to be a single race country, why can't the western people just let it go? they aren't causing any harm to other countries or promote hate against other races, they just want to preserve their race thats all. im not saying multicultural country is a bad idea.
its irony that america will become a one mixed race(asian/black/white/hispanic) in future is that label as one race country?

They do harm other races, they do harm themselves and they promote hatred.

I think biologically the differences are so minor between the "races" that they do not warrant to be labeled as such.

I would love to hear your definition of race, btw.

So, why do they harm other races? They do so simply by restricting the gene flow thus decreasing the variations within the gene pool of homo sapiens. This is also the reason why they harm themselves.
And they promote hatred insofar, that other people are considered inferior or dangerous. Why else are they not allowed to live with a "pure" race?
(Emmigration can cause hatred as well, though.)

They will become "a one mixed race"? I do not see that happen biologically.

[kellymich]

They do harm other races, they do harm themselves and they promote hatred.
I think biologically the differences are so minor between the "races" that they do not warrant to be labeled as such.
I would love to hear your definition of race, btw.
So, why do they harm other races? They do so simply by restricting the gene flow thus decreasing the variations within the gene pool of homo sapiens. This is also the reason why they harm themselves.
And they promote hatred insofar, that other people are considered inferior or dangerous. Why else are they not allowed to live with a "pure" race?
(Emmigration can cause hatred as well, though.)
They will become "a one mixed race"? I do not see that happen biologically.
To me the things you say are no small madness.

But it certainly is indicative of the hubris of many westerners, especially propagandized american liberals ... as if the japanese have some duty to share their genes... or that is somehow hateful to be a people.

Only very recently, and only among some deranged minds in the west,would these ideas have any currency. It is fortunant that the japanese seem to have a good and still intact instinct for what is best for them. This probably stems from their long history and their history of taking from the west only what they want to take.

They will be polite to you, and then they will do what they want to do... no matter how much you rave or believe in the "righteousness" of your presumptous and impertinant views.

[gaijinalways]

Um, I believe it. Nobody ever really accepts someone who is truly "not one of them". Never have, never will. It is not necessarily based on race.

It would be interesting to define 'them' in America.

But it certainly is indicative of the hubris of many westerners, especially propagandized american liberals ... as if the japanese have some duty to share their genes... or that is somehow hateful to be a people.

You seem to have missed a main point in this discussion. No one is asking them to share, rather to lessen the discrimination practiced in Japan. I suppose you like being refused entry to an apartment, etc.. I will have to look for those 'no Japanese signs' in LA next time I vist there:okashii: !

[kellymich]

It would be interesting to define 'them' in America.
You seem to have missed a main point in this discussion. No one is asking them to share, rather to lessen the discrimination practiced in Japan. I suppose you like being refused entry to an apartment, etc.. I will have to look for those 'no Japanese signs' in LA next time I vist there:okashii: !
No doubt that the Japanese should be less discriminatory to foreigners.

But I beg to differ with you … some people are asking them to become merely another multi cultural new york.

My feeling is that this would so change the character of japan that it would not be a good thing. But The japanese can decide for themsleves ... I find westerners who criticize them for not doing so extremely arrogent and I feel they need to be taken down a notch or two for meddling in things which they have no business.-- Like the destiny of a people, a culture, and a nation.

In short, if the japanese wish to become like multicultural new york that is their business -- but it is not ours.

[yukio_michael]

No doubt that the Japanese should be less discriminatory to foreigners.Yes, and what does this have to do with Asylum? Oh yes, Asylum seekers are simply criminals... I'll tell that to the fellow I know whose children are dead in Iraq because a bomb fell upon his house... I know he WOULDN'T be welcome in Japan.

But I beg to differ with you … some people are asking them to become merely another multi cultural new york.I beg YOU to procure the source of any sort of data, study, or essay, even a rant that suggests this somewhere, anywhere... Just who is wanting them to be multi-cultural "new york"...? I'll remind you, when you walk off the plane in New York, Japanese or not, English speaking or not, and you begin living in New York--- you're considered a "New Yorker"... quite the contrast to how foreigners are treated in Japan.

My feeling is that this would so change the character of japan that it would not be a good thing. But The japanese can decide for themsleves ...The problem is, that you don't seem to be understanding what complaints there are that people are actually levying.... You think that people want Japan to be one big melting pot, and by far, I've seen the opposite rant, that Japan is becoming "Too Westernized", and this is from foreigners...

I find westerners who criticize them for not doing so extremely arrogent and I feel they need to be taken down a notch or two for meddling in things which they have no business.How is the equitable treatment of legal foreigners in Japan NOT my business...? Nobody is asking Japan to let MORE foreigners in, just to treat the ones there in a fashion that respects their attempts at become a part of Japanese society... and further and to the main point of this thread, to accept asylum seekers, even if to Japan, they are simply unwanted as an undesirable race.

In short, if the japanese wish to become like multicultural new york that is their business -- but it is not ours.In short, nobody has ever said this, in the history of anything I've read on the problems of discrimination and immigration in Japan... it's just an utter falsehood, much like the majority of your assumptions.

[kellymich]

Yes, and what does this have to do with Asylum? Oh yes, Asylum seekers are simply criminals... I'll tell that to the fellow I know whose children are dead in Iraq because a bomb fell upon his house... I know he WOULDN'T be welcome in Japan.

I beg YOU to procure the source of any sort of data, study, or essay, even a rant that suggests this somewhere, anywhere... Just who is wanting them to be multi-cultural "new york"...? I'll remind you, when you walk off the plane in New York, Japanese or not, English speaking or not, and you begin living in New York--- you're considered a "New Yorker"... quite the contrast to how foreigners are treated in Japan.

The problem is, that you don't seem to be understanding what complaints there are that people are actually levying.... You think that people want Japan to be one big melting pot, and by far, I've seen the opposite rant, that Japan is becoming "Too Westernized", and this is from foreigners...

How is the equitable treatment of legal foreigners in Japan NOT my business...? Nobody is asking Japan to let MORE foreigners in, just to treat the ones there in a fashion that respects their attempts at become a part of Japanese society... and further and to the main point of this thread, to accept asylum seekers, even if to Japan, they are simply unwanted as an undesirable race.

In short, nobody has ever said this, in the history of anything I've read on the problems of discrimination and immigration in Japan... it's just an utter falsehood, much like the majority of your assumptions.

You seem mesmerized by the word asylum.

I think that 1., third world countries need to begin get their houses in order. 2., That countries such as japan should play a positive role in this.
But as far as taking in millions of refugees or large scale immigration, that is something which the Japanese people should decide for themselves. And there are plenty of good reasons for them not to do it. Whether you call it immigration or asylum is mere semantics.

[yukio_michael]

Whether you call it immigration or asylum is mere semantics.No, it's not. There aren't millions of asylum seekers... there aren't millions of immigrants either... the society isn't set at 99% Japanese, 1% foreign (the bulk of which are Asian), for no particular reason.

They're firm on Immigration (which is their business), and rank poorly on Asylum issues, you have to get these two very distinct words seperate... I don't know why you can't see this.

Immigrant = Someone who may be skilled or unskilled who wished to migrate to a perspective country to better their financial situation, or simply because they wish to enjoy the benefits (whatever they see them to be) of a particular country, etc...

Asylum Seeker = Someone who's life and the lives possibly of his or her family are in grievous danger should he or she remain in his or her own country who seek refuge from possible death or torture should they remain in their own country.

It's very simple. And there are millions of neither.

[kellymich]

No, it's not. There aren't millions of asylum seekers... there aren't millions of immigrants either... the society isn't set at 99% Japanese, 1% foreign (the bulk of which are Asian), for no particular reason.

They're firm on Immigration (which is their business), and rank poorly on Asylum issues, you have to get these two very distinct words seperate... I don't know why you can't see this.

Immigrant = Someone who may be skilled or unskilled who wished to migrate to a perspective country to better their financial situation, or simply because they wish to enjoy the benefits (whatever they see them to be) of a particular country, etc...

Asylum Seeker = Someone who's life and the lives possibly of his or her family are in grievous danger should he or she remain in his or her own country who seek refuge from possible death or torture should they remain in their own country.

It's very simple. And there are millions of neither.

The number of people in the world who will die as a result of malnutrition and starvation alone this year is estimated at around 35,000,000... around 5 times the number of jews that were killed in nazi germany ... they are, as you say, in grievous danger.

The problems in the world cannot be solved by immigration to japan ... these countries must get a hold of their justice, population and poverty problems. That is the solution.

Between 1990 and 1993 the number of asylum seekers in the European Community jumped from 320,000 to 560,000. No doubt, if japan allowed it, millions of people would enter japan under asylum and immigration. Many people from around the world have very good reasons for wanting to do so.

The situation in the world is beyond the imagination of a westerner and his self destructive delusions of "a chicken in every pot" ... and it probably will not work out very well. There are almost certain to be huge catastrophes, man made and otherwise. The japanese are very wise to ensure their prosperity and cultural health in what is certain to be a turbulent time. If you are so keen on helping the "disadvantaged" put your own life on the line and go do charity work in Harare or Calcutta ... but you have no right to criticize the japanese. They are very wise … and I have little doubt they will continue to flourish 100, 200, and even 300 years down the road.

I didn't create the world as it is ... but I do know a thing or two about what civilizations need not only to merely survive (which is not a goal worthy of our highest aspirations) , but to be vital, healthy and dynamic. Many westerners cannot look at the world situation objectively because it is simply too disturbing and it shatters their humanitarian illusions. But in my opinion it is our humanitarian illusions which will destroy us more than anything else.

No one likes to think of unpleasnt things and ruin their day, and the idealists don't like to have their dreams of universal brotherhood, peace and prosperity shattered ... and that is why people have difficulty facing what is sometimes truly necesary and healthy for a society. Things which would guarantee it, a vital, healthy and prosperous future. It appears to me that the japanese have, to their credit, figured it out. The japanese don't want the rest of the world to fail, but they are not intent on commiting cultural suicide for something which they will not be able to change the outcome. It is highly pragmatic, correct, and pregnant with a future. It ensures that this venerable culture will survive.

[kellymich]

That unlivable America is much more confortable than present Japan.

In some places America is more livable than japan- agreed. japan is simply too crowded.

However, many of america's largest cities, especially on the coasts, have become very difficult and unpleasant to live in mostly because of the culture, the violence and skyrocketing property prices.

We are now a country of 300 million people and by the year 2090 to 2100 we will be a country of 1 billion people if current immigration trends continues to America unabated. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think it will work out very well.

Japan has one thing that holds it together- the unity and ethos of its people. Under such crowded conditions I think Americans might shoot each other. We are not a bad people but we have so much ferment and so much contradiction and change that it is almost impossible to contain bad elements or understand the country from decade to decade.

Our educational system too has almost been destroyed. Where I live in California 1 in 3 high schools students now drops out of the once excellent public school system. The kids are dropping out, I presume, because their lives have been made intolerable by the school system. It is a very sad thing that the richest most powerful country in the world has allowed its schools to degenerate so badly. The people who have presided over the disintegration of America's schools have been the "western liberal humanists" and their programmes. They have been firmly in charge for 50 years. These would be the same people who would have a mindset that Japan needs to accept millions of immigrants and assylum seekers from around the world-- is it any wonder I am sceptical ?

[tokapi]

lol .... :D:D:D

Good lord,bumped an old thread to vent.

Apparently,U only come here to whine about America is gradually becoming a third-worlder populated country ( me,agree tho ).If so discontent with present living situations in America,WHY NOT emigrate elsewhere :okashii:

3 out of 10 national top high schools are in California.:blush:

[maushan3]

The people who have presided over the disintegration of America's schools have been the "western liberal humanists" and their programmes. They have been firmly in charge for 50 years. These would be the same people who would have a mindset that Japan needs to accept millions of immigrants and assylum seekers from around the world-- is it any wonder I am sceptical ?

It's kind of sad, but it's either that or Japan becoming a third-world country because it simply will not be able to maintain its political and economical power it has now, let alone emerge, all because of the declining population and social problems emerging nowadays, not by any means compared to America's problems, but still, it has its own share of social problems.

Many people could disagree with me, but an example is the overwork culture. These people work a whole lot of time and the new iniciative to once again increase the school week to 6 days a go certainly does not help. Japanese are humans, and humans have a boiling point and it's no wonder the pressure is the cause of many suicides among other social ills.

Mauricio

[Glenski]

The 6-day school week is only for half the month, BTW, not every week. It was phased out for a couple of years, because the government thought kids needed more home time to develop their social skills instead of becoming juvenile delinquents. Parents rightfully complained because the gov didn't do anything to change college entrance exams at the same time, and parents were concerned that their kids weren't getting enough education to get into college.

Whether a 6-day-a-week, half a month school schedule is actually needed remains moot, as many/most private schools do that anyway and most never cancelled it when the public schools did.

The whole issue is moot anyway when you consider that the declining birthrate will soon produce so few students for universities and HS that anyone will be able to get in, thus eliminating a need for any entrance exam at all.

[caster51]

Many people could disagree with me, but an example is the overwork culture. These people work a whole lot of time and the new iniciative to once again increase the school week to 6 days a go certainly does not help. Japanese are humans, and humans have a boiling point and it's no wonder the pressure is the cause of many suicides among other social ills

at first, ppl did more hard working before.
and students had more pressure before.

[Astroboy]

It's too early to discuss immigration policy of Japan because Japan is already enough populous with some 130 million inhabitants.

It is true that Japan is fastest ageing country and labor shortage may become more serious. BUT Japan is developing more intelligent robots, which may replace manual labor. I personally believe that some 50 million people are enough for this tiny islands, and Japanese should use more robots than human being to maintain our economic prosperity.

[kellymich]

It's too early to discuss immigration policy of Japan because Japan is already enough populous with some 130 million inhabitants.
It is true that Japan is fastest ageing country and labor shortage may become more serious. BUT Japan is developing more intelligent robots, which may replace manual labor. I personally believe that some 50 million people are enough for this tiny islands, and Japanese should use more robots than human being to maintain our economic prosperity.

Japan really is overpopulated as it is… a decline of 20, 30 even 40 million would not be disastrous if you focused on bringing out quality from your people. With automation and globalization Japan has to be smarter … she doesn’t need a population of 200 million wildly diverse peoples crammed into a tiny land mass. I doubt she needs to turn into a new york city so that the “dirty work” gets done.

If you had fewer people you could have larger homes and more space, which I would imagine, would induce more families to have 1 or 2 children to keep the population stable and young… not to mention an overall more healthy society.

The goals of japan should not be to dominate the world economy but to provide an excellent standard of living and quality of life to its people.

It is possible in the modern world to grow an economy without growing a population… but many people are very frightened of this idea. In America we have become addicted in the last 30 years to high turnover cheap labor … but the real costs and social implications we have not yet tallied.

For the land mass that is japan—it is quite remarkable what the japanese have accomplished. The thinkers in the western world have taken to a course of action and they feel this is right for everyone because we are doing it. American’s cant stand to really believe in something and not try to push it on the rest of the world—they just can’t.

I however think the japanese people should be able to choose whether they want a multi-cultural multi ethnic society... if so then fine ... but it is not our place to tell the japanese what they need to do. My feeling is that the majority of the japanese people do not want it which I think is a perfectly legitimate choice.

[kellymich]

lol .... :D:D:D
Good lord,bumped an old thread to vent.
Apparently,U only come here to whine about America is gradually becoming a third-worlder populated country ( me,agree tho ).If so discontent with present living situations in America,WHY NOT emigrate elsewhere :okashii:
3 out of 10 national top high schools are in California.:blush:


I didn’t say I was discontent … let us just say I am concerned. If I become discontent perhaps I will emigrate somewhere -- I have friends and family connections all over the world.

I don’t want to be seen as whining … America is still, in places, a very marvelous country. California no doubt has some excellent schools … but still, the sad statistic regarding 1 in 3 students now dropping out is a strong indictment against the educational establishment in california. The only questions one really needs to ask is who have been running the schools and what philosophies have governed them during their pathetic decline. The questions, when asked by a thoughtful individual diagnose the disease.

[centrajapan]

Japan is not that crowded compared with Benelux parts of Germany. US might have more space but the flip side is that there are much more moralising violent religious fanatics with a square mind set. The food sucks too there. Who cares about school when they cant even stop people from killing each other.

Yes Japan should be selective with who they want to have in their society. Japan is a peaceful country not like USA or Brazil.

[Glenski]

It's too early to discuss immigration policy of Japan because Japan is already enough populous with some 130 million inhabitants.

Kellymich wrote: Japan really is overpopulated as it is… a decline of 20, 30 even 40 million would not be disastrous if you focused on bringing out quality from your people.

The above 2 quotes fail to take into account a very important factor here. It is not just raw numbers of people that are on the decline. The aged are on the increase, so the numbers of people of working age are falling. This has 2 effects right off: fewer people to do the work, fewer people to support the aged. Automation will not be a panacea for work, especially in farmland, and automation will certainly not help the financial support needed for taking care of elderly (most of which are feeble and unable to care for themselves). Younger people in Japan today are already choosing not to contribute to the pension system.

It is true that Japan is fastest ageing country and labor shortage may become more serious.Not "may", but will. This has already been reported by many sources, so to brush it aside as a "maybe" is just putting on blinders to reality.

Japanese should use more robots than human being to maintain our economic prosperity.Automation helps and is on the rise, but we don't live in the world of Star Trek or The Jetsons. Farming is a serious concern as much (or more so) as industry, and automation is not destined to improve the situation there with the population demographics going the way they are.

if you focused on bringing out quality from your people...Well, yes, but history has shown this not to be the case, especially in recent years. "Japan, Inc." is not alive and well anymore.

I doubt she [Japan] needs to turn into a new york city so that the “dirty work” gets done.Look around! Japan is already a NY in a sense with the immigrants brought in (often illegally) to do precisely that dirty work!

I however think the japanese people should be able to choose whether they want a multi-cultural multi ethnic society... if so then fine ... but it is not our place to tell the japanese what they need to do. My feeling is that the majority of the japanese people do not want it which I think is a perfectly legitimate choice. Many of the older population feel that way, especially those in the inbred halls of government. But it is rapidly becoming more than a mere matter of choice.

Perhaps Japan should open its eyes and look around to see that the world itself is becoming multicultural anyway. This is not going to stop. Nobody is saying that the culture of Japan should die (or die out). It will evolve regardless of immigration laws and such. One problem is that so many people don't realize this. Another is that they don't see there aren't any other viable solutions.

Some very interesting support to all of this can be found here.
http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9539825
http://japanfocus.org/products/details/2411
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1748423,00.html
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/Chapple.html

[caster51]

I think that the problem of the population decline has nothing to do with immigration
it is kind of propaganda..

today, population　is not equal to power of country.
I think As for the Japanese population, the present half is proper.

There is not the problem thereby even if industrial power and etc. decline

The United States should increase the number of Chinese immigrant more.

[Goldiegirl]

Yes the food sucks in America....go to Japan. Jeez...that's so silly. The food here is as diverse as the people. I don't want more people in the USA and I wouldn't wish it on Japan either. In the USA we are stuck in vicious circle of political correctness and we are diluting what our country was founded on. It's not a melting pot and never will be one. That's a myth and it wouldn't happen in Japan.

[MadamePapillon]

Japan should defenitly start accepting new immigrants (from non-asian countries as well), not even because of the rapidly aging and shrinking population but as an effort to move into the 21st century. Japans unwillingness to accept foreigners is not only going to hurt it's economy in the future but is also going to make it ever more alienated from the rest of the modern world that has accepted and, in many more ways than not, made immigration work. Not only that, but it will bring new ideas, creativity and perspectives to the country rather than letting it become a static society that slowly stagnates under it's own unwillingness to change.

It's been stated again and again and again that "Japan is not like the US, they're not a melting pot ect". Japan is one of least culturally diverse first world nation so there's almost no chance of that happening, but it seems like Japan is doing everything in it's power to head the issue off at the pass when, so far, the possibility isn't even there. They are jumping to conclussion about what might happen if they allowed more immigrants, fearing turning into another US or Canada.

I know there is a resistance of change and conflict but, honestly, is Japan such a delicate flower that they would crumble and die at the first major conflict? Methinks not. The only problem really lies with the Japanese people themselves. I don't know what they've seen of the US or Canada that makes them so scared of turning into a multi-cultural society (maybe someone living in Japan could tell me) but I'm sure that wont be the case.

[Astroboy]

I think that the problem of the population decline has nothing to do with immigration
it is kind of propaganda..
today, population　is not equal to power of country.
I think As for the Japanese population, the present half is proper.


Well said.

Today number of head or geographical space is not important to guage country. It is not the time of colonialisim, but the time of globalization & free trade.

Instead of maintaining population, Japan should develop more humanoid robots and seek the path to a paradise - less work but earn more from investment returns from overseas.

Japanese Paradise may be approaching.

[Glenski]

I think that the problem of the population decline has nothing to do with immigrationWell, economists and politicians around the world disagree with you. Immigration is not the whole issue, but it is definitely the one most people focus on.

What else do you have if the population actually declines long enough, caster? Nobody here left alive.

Before that extreme happens, people have to face the fact of what shortages lie ahead:

fewer people to put into the pension system to support the growing number of elderly,
fewer people attending school (hence, fewer teachers needed, fewer schools to stay afloat, and fewer graduates to enter the work force),
fewer farmers (as if there wasn't already a shortage), leading to a stronger dependence on foreign trade,
etc.

Yup, propaganda.

Astroboy asserted: It is not the time of colonialisim, but the time of globalization & free trade. Thankfully, this is not colonialist times, or countries nearby would be in fear of the so-called peaceful Japan mentioned earlier (here or on another similar thread). However, if there is no one at the wheels of corporate industry because the number of people is so low, how can you even have any trade running?

Just what is globalization to you, Astroboy?

In the USA we are stuck in vicious circle of political correctness and we are diluting what our country was founded on. It's not a melting pot and never will be one. That's a myth and it wouldn't happen in Japan.
Gee, if you don't like it there, to use your own words, why don't you leave?

As for melting pot, I'm curious as to why you think the USA is not one. What support do you have for that?

Oh, and it is happening in Japan. Don't you read the statistics about increasing marriages to foreigners? Wake up, Goldie.

And, a random passing question related to the above quote...
Just what in your mind was the USA founded on?

[Glenski]

I know there is a resistance of change and conflict but, honestly, is Japan such a delicate flower that they would crumble and die at the first major conflict? Methinks not. The only problem really lies with the Japanese people themselves. I don't know what they've seen of the US or Canada that makes them so scared of turning into a multi-cultural society (maybe someone living in Japan could tell me) but I'm sure that wont be the case.
IMO, and in the opinion of many, the problem with the above notion stems from politicians and the police. It's widely known that the police publish skewed reports about foreign crime (presumably to get more money for their own coffers), and this horrific advertising every year (or is it twice a year?) http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20031231b3.html .

And, then there are things like the National Police Agency actually establishing the "Policymaking Committee Against Internationalization" http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20070220zg.html .

Is it any wonder that the regular citizens are scared? Hooliganism during the World Cup is one thing (and proven to be inaccurate), but to scare the whole country against foreigners in general is ludicrous, yet it is happening. Mind control? Yes, of a sort, thanks to your friendly neighborhood government and its henchmen, the police.

It's nice to see that some locals are not buffaloed by such things http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20031231b3.html and we can only hope that more Japanese citizens rise up openly against such stupidity.

[centrajapan]

Gee, if you don't like it there, to use your own words, why don't you leave?

As for melting pot, I'm curious as to why you think the USA is not one. What support do you have for that?

US is not a melting pot. You have big getthoes where African Americans live in 3rd world conditions with a soaring crime rate. US prisons is over populated by African Americans and Latinos. It is not a melting pot at all. Each ethnicity live in their getthoes.

It would be better to compare Japan to an European country because both Japan and Europe is populated by more or less by the indegenous people where as US killed most of the indegenous people and was founded by immigrants. Japan, Europe have more than 1000 years of history. Anyhow. In Europe people are complaining about too many immigrants already. I have a feeling that Americans are more open to immigrants than both Europe and Japan maybe...? this is due to the fact that the country is founded by immigrants.

If this trend continues there will be no people left in Japan but this means that this trend has to continue for a couple of centuries so Japan will manage with or without immigrants. It should be up to Japan to decide when and how many they should take and US should most certainly not be a model to follow.

Globalization to me is when a country wages war on countries to be able to rape the country for natural resources.

[centrajapan]

I just want to add. The situation is quite similar in Italy. Italy and Japan are the two countries in this world with most old people in the population. Both countries have a low birth rate and both countries do not want to open up their borders too much. There are many European countries who dont want to have hoards of immigrants into their country and that in itself is not a racist attitude.

Its a played out joke to say that people who are sceptical to immigrants are racist. Also to say they are racist to point out the fact that foreigners are over represented in Japanese prisons. This is a fact.

[Astroboy]

Thankfully, this is not colonialist times, or countries nearby would be in fear of the so-called peaceful Japan mentioned earlier (here or on another similar thread). However, if there is no one at the wheels of corporate industry because the number of people is so low, how can you even have any trade running?

Just what is globalization to you, Astroboy?

It is an interesting post. Let me explain to you.

In 2006, Japan's current account surplus continued to expand and mark record high of 4-consecutive years. As you know, Current account mean The net flow of current transactions, including trade of goods, services, and interest payments, between countries.

Needless to say, trade surplus is famous as one of Japanese economic characteristics. Yes, Japan used to rely on trade, but today it has been less important.

But Key is interest payment account, which continue to surpass growth rate of others because Japanese companies shifted their factories to overseas + Japanese capital investments to other countries. It was because of higher yen & famous Japan-bashing over trade issues & labour shortage.

In short, Japan is reshaping or reshaped its economy towards .... maintaining R&D and key industries in Japan, transferring manual-labor works to overseas, and earning returns from overseas subsidiaries + investments + intellectual proprietaries or patents.

Please note that Japanese patent right revenus from all countries in the world already exceeded payments from some 20 years ago, and continues to grow.

Trade of goods is less important, but returns from capital investment & capital expenditure in overseas are more important to Japan.

Soon or later, the times may come .... which is "No Work But Living on Interests"....
Beautiful retirement life ????? That's why I said .... Japan is entering into a paradise, which human being never experienced before.

Then, America begins to change the rule again ????

[Astroboy]

When Japan can live on more financial returns, it is not necessary to discuss about immigration policy.

Japan may be retiring. I hope world monetary system is not like Japanese Social Insurance Agency!!!

[MadamePapillon]

US is not a melting pot. You have big getthoes where African Americans live in 3rd world conditions with a soaring crime rate. US prisons is over populated by African Americans and Latinos. It is not a melting pot at all. Each ethnicity live in their getthoes.


You seem to have a very skewed version of America and how it actually is.
First off, while there are ghettoes and often there are definite areas where ethnicities stick together, I think the image you are portraying is a gross over exaggeration of the reality. Firstly, because it is not simply blacks and latinos living in poverty, there are people of all kinds living that way (including white people), but America does mo