Japan Bashing [Archive]

Iron Chef

Nov 7, 2003, 17:34

Criticism when constructive and presented in a proper context is great. The problem that I see though (myself included), is most people tend to use broad generalizations, categorical labels, general assumptions, etc. etc. to either oversimplify or dilute/concentrate things ala "Well, Japanese women like..." or "Japan will never agree to...". This can be misleading because it can present a distorted and or inaccurate image or portrayal of whatever issue is at hand being addressed. Let's face it... what's the one thing everybody hates on a public forum (besides trolls and spammers 8-p)? Someone who tries to come off as a "know-it-all" and that said person's point of view is the only one that should be heeded.

I try to preface my queries with statements like "From my experience" or "To the best of my knowledge" etc. etc. because I feel it is important to distinguish that none of us are truly experts per se on ALL things Japanese. Most of us who aren't Japanese will always have a different perspective that is shaped, molded, and influenced by the culmination of our experiences abroad, as well as the result of the socialization process in our own countries.

All that being said, am I or have I ever been critical of Japan? Sure, on many issues. Does my opinion really matter for squat when all is said and done? Nope, because that is after all just one person's opinion and by no means is representative or reflective of a broader population and as such should always be taken with a grain of salt (although I have been told I make a great Trivial Pursuit partner 8-p).
:)

ragedaddy

Nov 7, 2003, 20:50

I can understand where some people are coming from when they get irate about people saying bad things about Japan. However, it doesn`t seem like everybody realizes that sometimes the bashing is aimed at the situation that occurred rather than a culture or group as a whole. For example, the misleading brochure could happen in any country, and I`m sure senseiman would be just as pissed off if it occurred in his own country. I am sure he would be complaining just as much as about that tourist company. The point is when you are mad, you end up talking smack about the people that are responsible for the action, and that is just human nature. Senseiman just happened to be in Japan when it happened. I agree maybe he was a little hostile, but he didn`t say that every Japanese person is messed up or anything to that extent. He was just venting about what occurred, and when people are angry sometimes they come off a little stronger than they really wanted to express. All he is doing is expressing his displeasures that happened while he was living in Japan. It`s not like since this one Japanese person did something bad to him, and so now he is going to label every other Japanese person as being the same. Therefore, I think Tiger overacted a little too much, but that`s about it.

Don`t get me wrong, because I`m not trying to defend people who bash Japan. There are ignorant people who use racial slurs, stereotypes, and other hurtful things about a race, culture, gender, or religion. I don`t condone this at all, and in fact I am usually the one retaliating against those kinds of people. I am talking about the people that are saying all Japanse are this.....or all black people are that, I have no patience for these types of imbasulic people. When it comes to discriminating against another group of people, that kind of bashing is unacceptable.

I agree with Iron Chef about the people who think they know everything there is to know about a country since that have lived their for an elongated period of time. They say that`s how it is, and there are no other possible point-of-view that exists.
Many times that person`s explanation or definition is a little skewed, and can`t really be taken as credible information. I`m not saying all of it is incorrect, but sometimes that kind of thing happens.

I myself have found various things about Japan to be a little frustrating, but I have also had a plethora of awesome experiences here. Sometimes, I get a little ticked about things that happened to me here living in Tokyo. However, I don`t go bad mouthing the population as a whole, just the offenders. Wherever you go there will be nice people and mean people, so just go with the flow and try not to blame the country or people as a whole for your own mishaps.

den4

Nov 8, 2003, 02:52

:D
I never have that problem...too many people have told me that I don't know anything, so that must be true.... :D

So, I am the self-proclaimed "Know-it-nothing" guru of this and other forums... :D

Uncle Frank

Nov 8, 2003, 03:31

I notice I find it easier to complain the older I get!

Frank

budd

Nov 8, 2003, 13:18

if a japanese person come into this forum and post a thread on why america sux, nobody betta say nothin
all i'm sayin

Elizabeth

Nov 8, 2003, 14:02

It is a tricky issue definately and, as has already been stressed, one that probably depends a lot on precisely how you phrase the criticism, whether you are thoughtful enough to solicit their input beforehand and make sure to lay out a good preface "this is often how Westerners view things" or this is just my opinion" etc. As for the few Japanese I've ever had the courage to ask the best/worst things about their country: the best most won't say or can't think of anything but for the worst it is often something like Japanese are too close minded about outsiders and even about other Japanese that don't fit in. It just tends not to be assocated with racism or xenophobia in their minds, so if you baldly approach it from that angle you'll most likely get the standard reply about prejudice and discrimination everywhere. But I do agree with factual and constructive "criticism" or sharing individual experiences of difficulties with another culture as a way of provoking thought and understanding whether you have lived there two years or three months and leaving it to the recipiant to judge your credibility.

Maciamo

Nov 8, 2003, 23:49

Considering that I would first shamelessly bash my own country, then the neighbouring countries if there is a reason for it (there always is, we don't live in a perfect world, and my standards are very high anyway), bashing Japan, especially if one lives there, is as perfectly acceptable.
Politeness ? Yes, as usual if one is well-educated, they should know that. Knowing what one is talking about ? A basis to credibility, isn't it ?

senseiman

Nov 9, 2003, 15:00

Thanks for replying everyone.

I think it is a touchy subject. I too think it depends a lot on the circumstances in which the criticism is being made. Obviously criticism based on racial prejudices is totally indefensible. But I think criticism based on limited personal experiences and personal tastes is also often hollow. There are people who tend to attribute certain isolated problems to the Japanese nation as a whole. Like some foreigners who see young Japanese spending huge sums of money on designer clothing, brand name hand bags and expensive cell phones - and then project this image of shallow consumerism to all of Japanese society, when in fact it only relates to a small minority.

On the other hand, I've noticed the tendency to defend Japan on the basis that a foreigner can't understand its culture is almost unique to this country. Anyone suggesting that a Japanese persons criticism of Canada is skewed because they cannot possibly understand our complex and mysterious cultural ways would be laughed out of town. Yet that sort of comment seems pretty standard when a debate about some negative aspect of Japan's society comes up.

I've notice that Japanese seem to have a much more heightened awareness of their national identity than people in other countries. Perhaps this makes them more sensitive to criticism of their country and more likely to take it personally. I notice that the Japanese government, for example, tends to ignore some issues until the foreign press starts to criticize it and only then does it take action to stem international embarassment. Like with the Onsens in Hokkaido with their 'No foreigners' signs out front. Wasn't a problem until the foreign press started printing pictures of the signs. Solution? Take the English out of the sign so that it won't be embarrasing to Japan.

budd

Nov 11, 2003, 06:42

i don't want to waste time providing a real cool analogy (maybe for the rebuttal :))
i'm sitting in MY house, on MY couch chilling
it's an old/new/yellow/purple/whatever couch, but its comfy and paid for
somebody comes in (i didn't invite him, but my roommate might have)
dude starts tripping about "man, that couch is ugleee! you should get a new one!"
"oh, you gone buy me one?" "naw, i'm telling you to go buy one though!"
"and get another bookcase! you may want to get a tv someday, so you should go buy a new one -- just in case"
"i like your curtains, but you need to open the shutters more to let in air or light/whatever! my girlfriend thinks so too! ain't that right honey!"
and i got a second floor balcony

senseiman

Nov 11, 2003, 11:19

I can see the point that you are trying to make Budd, but I think its kind of a flawed analogy. Its not like there are a lot of guys just barging into Japan, picking out random Japanese that they don't know on the street and telling them whats wrong with their country and why America or wherever they are from is better. Well.....on second thought perhaps there are such people and they obviously shouldn't be put up with, but thats not really what I was talking about.

I would view my personal situation as more analogous to this. You have an apartment and I have moved in as your roomate. I like living there and we get along, but there are some things I dislike about living there (maybe you are a messy roommate or something). I'm frustrated because I know you are set in your ways and I can't change you so I don't want to cause any hurt feelings by confronting you directly. It also pisses me off that even though I pay half the rent, utilities, etc. you still think of it as YOUR apartment and look at me as some sort of transient even after I've lived there for a few years. So I go complain with my other friends, who also live in someone else's apartment, about the things we don't like about the situation. Its not that we don't like living with our roommates, its just that when we get together we like to poor out our frustrations as a way of venting.

budd

Nov 15, 2003, 03:09

that's baloney, and it's also the reason why i can't (also) bring MY friends over...
i'll leave this thread alone though (some heavy-handed people pulling the strings) and probably the board pretty soon as a result, so it doesn't matter that much i guess

Iron Chef

Nov 15, 2003, 06:04

What are you implying? Your veiled comment lost me...

neko_girl22

Nov 15, 2003, 14:51

I'm pretty sensitive when it comes to Japan bashing, but I feel there is no problem with valid criticism as long as it's not all the time (no one likes a moaner!)

For me, I really get upset about the pollution problem and the way people keep dogs (or any animal) in extremely small cages or keep them tied up with a short rope all day :( (but, both of these things happen in most countries.)

It's people that moan or make fun of things of personal taste - like how it's "stupid" how Japanese eat raw fish or the like that I think is unacceptable.

senseiman

Nov 15, 2003, 17:43

I didn't really understand your last post, Buddd. But if you are leaving, it was nice talking with ya!

Yeah, I agree with you, nzueda. There is a difference between complaining about universal problems that effect us all equally (pollution, animal cruelty, etc.) and issues related to cultural differences and taste (food, etc.).

Not that there is anything wrong with saying "I don't like Sushi", but there has to be a line drawn between questions of taste and moral judgements.

Gaki

Nov 20, 2003, 05:04

Some of my Japanese classmates from 2 yrs ago really hated London, i think all they really did was sit in class and complain about how crap the country is / was, how dirty it is compared to Japan, how the sky isnt as blue, etc, etc..
I think they most likely expected too much, and got dissapointed which led to their frustration.

Sometimes it was a bit annoying considering i live in London and i think it's ok, but then everyone is entitled to their opinion eh ?
But then again sometimes i think it sucks here too. LoL ! :D

neko_girl22

Nov 20, 2003, 08:02

they thought the sky was more blue in Japan? When I lived in Kobe sometimes I couldn't tell if the sky was clear or grey - bad pollution!!! I can only guess places like Tokyo are much worse. Those guys must've come from the countryside.....
I guess it comes down to personality too - some people just like complaining and I've found if people are in a situation that makes them uncomfortable or inferior they complain to make themselves feel better.....

senseiman

Nov 21, 2003, 12:35

And that is not mentioning the fact that you can't even see the sky in most cities through the massive jumble of power lines draped over every neighborhood!

Mind you, the view from the mountains in Japan can be quite breathtaking if you are away from the urban areas. But then again, the views in the English countryside can be equally lovely.

Kiwano

Nov 27, 2003, 07:19

I think that it's okay to criticize something, in this case Japan, IF you feel that you really have reason to do so. But it ain't cool to bash something just for the sake of bashing, and when one starts a thread, for example about bashing Japan, there will be a number of "trolls" on the thread who will cry their eyes out about everything they might come up with. Complaining can actually be a good way to handle the fact that the world isn't always what you want it to be, but one must be careful no to get lost in the complaints and forget to think if one really thinks/feels that way. I know do it some times, though I don't intend to, and sometimes other people might feel offended/hurt unnecessarily due to someones careless rant about something.

neko_girl22

Nov 27, 2003, 11:51

Originally posted by senseiman
And that is not mentioning the fact that you can't even see the sky in most cities through the massive jumble of power lines draped over every neighborhood!

Mind you, the view from the mountains in Japan can be quite breathtaking if you are away from the urban areas. But then again, the views in the English countryside can be equally lovely.

Yeah, I still can't get over all those powerlines!! so ugly!

Japanese countryside is beautiful! Living in a small town luckily I can enjoy blue skies and starry nights and the scenery is gorgeous! DH and I are thinking of renovating an old country house ... that would be so great! :happy:

Gaki

Nov 28, 2003, 02:05

Originally posted by nzueda
they thought the sky was more blue in Japan? When I lived in Kobe sometimes I couldn't tell if the sky was clear or grey - bad pollution!!! I can only guess places like Tokyo are much worse. Those guys must've come from the countryside.....
I guess it comes down to personality too - some people just like complaining and I've found if people are in a situation that makes them uncomfortable or inferior they complain to make themselves feel better.....

My friend showed me a photo once and it did look considerably blue'er than the sky in London.
Not too sure where the photo was of though, because it was her collection of photos whilst she was having her little travel around parts of Japan and her hometown.
When people say London is a grey country they arent really far off from the truth :D

But yeh i guess, when u feel uncomfortable complaining does kinda help ya feel better.
I always complain college is boring, but when i'm on summer holiday period i complain being at home is boring :D
Cant satsify everyone right ? :clap:

kov

May 2, 2004, 10:28

On the other hand, I've noticed the tendency to defend Japan on the basis that a foreigner can't understand its culture is almost unique to this country.

I've notice that Japanese seem to have a much more heightened awareness of their national identity than people in other countries.

While I agree that Japanese are highly aware of this, I disagree with it being so distinctive. I've known about a dozen Italians and they were like that big time -- and also used the "You don't understand our ways" a lot. At least when they weren't simply stating "our way is the right way."

And Israelis?? You can't talk about anything with them except maybe the weather on a sunny day. Of course, they probably have good ground for saying we don't understand what it's like to live your whole life in a war zone.

Let's see, who else ... Croatians. I tend to get a "don't even think about the Croatia-Serbia problems, you'll never understand. But trust us, we're good and they're bad" from them. I'm sure there are many others, but those come straight to mind.

playaa

May 2, 2004, 10:30

Constructive or polite criticism is ok.. But when it gets categorized as bashing, It becomes no longer acceptable to me.. :p

orochi

May 4, 2004, 00:04

I think that what exactly is being criticized is important to look at first. I believe that the issue of culture is fair ground to be discussed amongst any human being. We all have valid opinions based on our own cultures looking at a different culture. Being informed helps of course and someone bashing a culture they are ignorant of is not going to result in any decent ground for discussion and/or further debate. That problem will take care of itself.
Living in Japan myself, the problem I have is of foreigners who bash Japanese *people.* They are criticized for being less than honest, not very forward with their feelings, for being ethnocentric... the list goes on and on. The problem that I have is that most of the foreigners that do this criticizing cannot speak Japanese very well or at all. They rely on conversations in English to judge the Japanese people around them. I want to put them to the test... present yourself as honestly and as much as you can in Japanese (or any other language that you cannot speak very well for that matter) and be judged yourself. I find it very disturbing that people can judge someone based on conversations outside of their mother language. They need to make more of an effort to communicate in a way more comfortable to who they are speaking to to elicit a more realistic and honest answer.

Ewok85

May 5, 2004, 15:06

I feel its only natural for a group of foreigners who get together to bash their host country. Happened when i went to japan (along with our respective countries having a go). I'm with Maciamo, my country (australia) is normally first. Normally my japan bashing is limited to the pollution, bad weather, teacher at school who was being mean, that kinda thing. Usual whinging.

Stets

May 7, 2004, 10:05

My 2 cents:

Speaking on the topic in general, yes, it's okay to criticize another country or culture as long as you have an idea what you're talking about. People that argue about topics they don't have a clue about aren't worth your time. And they aren't worth going into long paragraphs about either.

Later,
Stets.

chiquiliquis

May 9, 2004, 19:42

I voted anything goes. But I think it's important to know a few things:

- why you are making your criticism.
A lot of people seem to have opinions on a lot of things, and feel it's more important to assert that opinion than to first assess why they own it.

- what you expect to accomplish by making it.
Again, not often thought of during the process; I am a pro at this one (and in a twisted way take pride in my increadible aptitude to that end). People often have low tolerance for criticism of social and cultural issues--they have less tolerance if all you hope to gain from it is some sort of emotional fulfillment. And yet less if you have no clue at all of what you expect to accomplish (you haven't given it thought).

All criticisms represent an individual judgment. But they are just that, individual. Now matter how "matter of fact" you present it, your criticism reflects you more than anything else. At the end of the day, you are just as flawed as the rest of us. :?

Areku

Jun 23, 2004, 23:03

I think it's ok to do on a forum, but I wouldn't go over there and start saying 'this bed sucks, why don't you have proper ones' or something. I mean it annoys me how a lot of people who emigrate to England start whinging about it, especially the asylum seekers who have demanded mosques to be built and other rubbish.

But if something sucks, it sucks, and there's no point deliberately not talking about it. In a polite way of course :P

Golgo_13

Jun 26, 2004, 08:58

What follows is not a case of Japan-bashing but an example of ignorance.

In an article "Japan Wrestles with Sumo's Future" by Mike Street in
Volume 14, Number 24, Tuesday June 8, 2004 edition of Asian (!) Reporter of the Pacific Northwest NewsWeekly, the author comments on page 11, column 5, that "a rule was instituted [in 2001] requiring all sumotori to speak fluent Japanese, effectively barring Westerners from the sport." (emphasis added) (I read the hard copy but it's also available on-line at http://www.asianreporter.com/arts/24-04sumo.htm see the very last paragraph).

This is simply not true. Even if such a rule had indeed been instituted, there are more "Westerners" than ever before competing in Japanese Sumo today--3 Brazilians, 4 Russians, 1 Georgian, 1 Bulgarian, 1 Czech, 1 Estonian, and 1 from Kazakhstan, not to mention over 30 Mongolians, as of 6/21/04, which can all be verified at the Sumo website at http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/ozumo_meikan/shusshinchi/index.html

There is a section at the very bottom of the site--though in Japanese--that indicates where all the Sumotori hail from.

The writer did not bother to update his facts, and most likely did not imply that the Japanese are racist--I'll give him the benefit of the doubt--but his comment "effectively barring Westerners from the sport" could easily be inferred as such by uninformed readers. Such commentaries, if not protested, or at least questioned, will foster the misconception of the Japanese being racist.

I have asked the newspaper to retract the author's comment.

senseiman

Jul 16, 2004, 11:59

They shouldn't allow people who have no idea what they are talking about to write garbage like that. Even someone with only a passing knowledge of Sumo would know that a large proportion of the top ranked Yokozunas over the past decade or so have been foreigners.

Golgo_13

Jul 16, 2004, 12:16

Foreign-born Yokozuna Grand Champions in the past decade:

Akebono (USA)(retired)
Musashimaru (USA)(retired)
Asashouryuu (Mongolia)

Currently there are no Japanese Yokozunas

mdchachi

Jul 16, 2004, 20:46

That's a big fact to get wrong.

I think the main rule governing foreigners is that is only one foreigner allowed per stable, isn't that right? So there is a limit. Baseball has a similar cap I think.

Golgo_13

Jul 17, 2004, 11:15

They've considered it but not implemented it.

The main problem is, they're having recruitment problems. Numerous smaller stables have either dissolved or been absorbed by larger ones because of shortage of rikishis. Japanese kids today don't have much interest in Sumo. They prefer baseball and soccer. Besides, kids today don't have the necessary discipline to withstand the harsh conditions while being in the apprentice stage (only room and board and small allowance). Only those who have done well in collegiate competition who are confident enough to quickly get past the apprentice stage are signing up now. Plus, Japanese couples don't have too many kids these days and they won't allow a son to forego high school and join Sumo at the age 15.

In baseball, even if each team is limited to only 1 foreignor, there are still plenty of Japanese players to field a team with. But in Sumo, the stables have no choice but to go overseas to expand their pool of prospects and continue recruiting in order to stay afloat. They used to have a minimum height requirement (about 170 cm) but they've even relaxed that rule and accept candidates who show a high degree of athletic ability who are shorter than 170cm.

BTW, Kokkai from the Georgia Republic is competting currently in the top Makunouchi division. Rahou from Russia and Koto'oushuu from Bulgaria ended up with winning records in the Juryo division in the July tournament and are virtually assured of being promoted to the top level for the next tourney.

Sinspawne

Jul 18, 2004, 02:38

From what i have seen of Japans countryside. like on TV ... .... :blush:
It is quite similar to Norway

but i am insanly jelous of your night sky :mad:

i wanna see it TOO ! !

Amazinggrace

Jul 19, 2004, 19:43

this is an interesting thread. because I believe every foreigner has once,twice or more than a few times bashed Japan in some way. Why? well one reason and I think the main one is total fustration with the system. Also if you go through a day where everyone stares at you in a negative way (you know the way when there is no smile but a straight dry stare as if to say "go home!") and you experience a couple other unpleasures that is typically associated with Japan you will obviously have a pretty bad outlook of Japan by days end. But then you will go into a shop and get wonderfull kind service from someone and think "oh....why did I hate Japan so much.....this person is being kind). It is quite natural to say things to your mates (foreigners that is NOT Japanese as no matter what they will take it the wrong way) but you have to be carefull not to go overboard. I remember this Indian/Australian buy I worked with once at this Eikawa who just HATED Japan and went on and on and on. I was embarrassed the way this dick went on. So you have to be carefull. Also be very carefull if you are married to a Japanese person also. Even if you are right they do not like it. I can say from experience, this is why I am very carefull. Also if you come from some 3rd world country that has very poor human rights and then come to Japan and complain about racial discrimination I think you had better take another look at your own country. So yes you need to weigh things up and take a look at your own country. and when you criticize Japan about something it is also good to come out with something positive. I believe with practically everything where there is a negative there is also a positive.
that is it for now.

PaulTB

Jul 19, 2004, 19:50

And that is not mentioning the fact that you can't even see the sky in most cities through the massive jumble of power lines draped over every neighborhood!
But on the other hand they do may very handy visual metaphors. c.f. Serial Experiments Lain. :cool:
Also if you go through a day where everyone stares at you in a negative way (you know the way when there is no smile but a straight dry stare as if to say "go home!")
To be fair I think that's as likely to be the "Wow, what is that?" stare of ignorance than the "Eww, what's that gaijin doing here?" stare of prejudice.

Not that that's a vast improvement. :relief:

Amazinggrace

Jul 19, 2004, 21:07

But on the other hand they do may very handy visual metaphors. c.f. Serial Experiments Lain. :cool:

To be fair I think that's as likely to be the "Wow, what is that?" stare of ignorance than the "Eww, what's that gaijin doing here?" stare of prejudice.

Not that that's a vast improvement. :relief:

sure it could be that also. but it is hard to determine what is going through ones mind with just a stare apart from whether or not it is a + or - stare. If it is a glance without a smile it might mean all kinds of things. But that doesnt bother me. It is the direct stare without smiling and the slight frown that gets me. i got that the other day in a barber shop by some oyaji just staring. Obviously I just stare back until they give up and look away.
On the other hand the is the stare and laugh. You notice it ESPECIALLY when they are in their cars (security) especially a couple and it is usually the guy who makes the joke (insecurity perhaps? worried the girlfriend might fancy me so he comes up with a joke??) and then you seem them laugh.
This is what gets me down......the looks. And then ofcoarse the "you cannot rent this mansion cause you are a Gaijin!"......but why?? "cause you live differently than us"......but you have a western style toilet, a shower, an oven, a fridge, electricity etc etc......didnt we invent all of these????
I was denied twice with renting a mansion. Both times I got my way! just throw it in their face about RACE and what westerners have achieved and invented. Why I say this is cause they love the "Race Theory" and have grown up with it. So if you tell them how it is then you might just get your own way.

Golgo_13

Jul 20, 2004, 07:01

From what i have seen of Japans countryside. like on TV ... .... :blush:
It is quite similar to Norway

but i am insanly jelous of your night sky :mad:

i wanna see it TOO ! !

So nice of you to say. :cool:

dayjp

Aug 2, 2004, 17:10

Ewok85

Aug 2, 2004, 17:18

Could anybody survive japan without complaing about it at least once a week? I don't mean "constructive" or "polite criticism". I mean REALLY sitting down with friends and complining about how sexist, perverted, dirty, and ignorant Japan can be at times.

The difference is WHO you do the complaining and bashing to. It is different when you are trying to change things than when you have just had TOO MUCH Japan.

I think this is normal human nature, move somewhere else and your bound to whinge about something. I go to Japan I complain about the bs and the humidity. I come back home and whige about how tatty everything looks and how unreliable public transport is.

I know someone who came from England and quite seriously complained that the sky is too blue and its sunny too much! :p

dayjp

Aug 2, 2004, 23:13

Let me put it another way.

If you live in Japan, Japan bashing is a way to stay sane. Often, the better you know the culture and the language, the more difficult it gets.

Critizing Japanese culture to Japanese people is a different matter. It is easy to lump Japanese people into one big group. It is a mistake.

However, those political vans that come around at 8 in the morning on Saturday should turn the volume down. Jesus Christ.

Surronded

Aug 3, 2004, 20:09

A little criticism is good for the evolution of a society

chikazukiyasui

Aug 19, 2004, 21:38

cyber ape

Dec 19, 2004, 09:53

In another thread (Why does Japan suck so much) the issue of whether or not a foreigner should criticize Japan was raised. One poster said that it is inappropriate for someone to criticize someone elses country, while I felt that it was perfectly reasonable to do so, so long as you could back up what you were saying.

What do you think? Is it OK for foreigners to 'bash' Japan, and if so how far can you go before you go too far?

Um, you can bash anything. It's called using your lungs, or your hand if you choose to write it down. It is physically and verbally possible to "bash" something.

Now that that's over with, you should know alot about something before you recklessly bash it, because you might and probly will be proven wrong and will then be porved to be an ignorant *****. I mean, just how would one "bash" Japan?

More importantly, what'd be the point? Bashing things doesn't generally get anything accomplished...

Kamisama

Dec 20, 2004, 03:22

So if a japanese says to me "I think your hair is colorful" can i tell them that i think their wife is hot/beautiful?

Maciamo

Dec 21, 2004, 10:39

As French or Italian people say : "Who loves well chastises well" (Qui aime bien chatit bien/ Chi ama bene castiga bene).

nekosasori

Dec 22, 2004, 21:05

My experience is this: Foreigners complain.

I don't mean foreigners in Japan. I mean foreigners everywhere.

About three quarters of foreigners everywhere spend three quarters or more of their conversation-time complaining about the country they're living in, and at least three quarters of their complaints are unfair (either too slight or too obvious to mention, or inaccurate, or the same back home, or not really a bad thing, or just plain absurd). How much a foreigner complains is not a reliable indicator of how bad things in their adopted country really are. Rather, it is a sign of how much the foreigner misses home.

Of course, most expatriates and travellers don't quite notice how much they're doing it. They have to be told by the locals to shut up many times before they get the message. The one's who can't stop usually go home sooner -- fortunately.

You may be interested to know that, as much as I can, do, and have complained about Ireland, the demographic which complains MOST about this country is the Irish themselves. I have my own theories as to why this is, but I did want to point out that in my personal experience, the locals whinge "more" (frequency, length of time devoted to complaints) here than the immigrants. It's a way of bonding, and a way of life here, to complain that is.

Also, I was thinking about Canada, where I grew up - again, multi-generational Canadians were the most vocal; the new-comers didn't complain as much, or even at all. Tourists and exchange students, likewise - many of them wouldn't know that I was local, but I still never heard anything negative about their impressions. Quite the contrary.

Oh, and I NEVER once complained about my years in New England. I really enjoyed living there, even as a foreigner.

Actually given all that I've experienced and heard, I believe quite strongly that what you've said does not hold universally true.

Pachipro

Jan 24, 2005, 04:45

ragedaddy said:
I can understand where some people are coming from when they get irate about people saying bad things about Japan. However, it doesn`t seem like everybody realizes that sometimes the bashing is aimed at the situation that occurred rather than a culture or group as a whole.
...I myself have found various things about Japan to be a little frustrating, but I have also had a plethora of awesome experiences here. Sometimes, I get a little ticked about things that happened to me here living in Tokyo. However, I don`t go bad mouthing the population as a whole, just the offenders. Wherever you go there will be nice people and mean people, so just go with the flow and try not to blame the country or people as a whole for your own mishaps.

Amazinggrace said:
this is an interesting thread. because I believe every foreigner has once,twice or more than a few times bashed Japan in some way. Why? well one reason and I think the main one is total fustration with the system.

It has been my experience over the years, and this thread proves it, that foreigners in Japan constantly have a "love/hate" relationship with the country, myself included.

They are torn between the culture they grew up and were educated in, and the culture they are struggling to survive in. When things don't go as expected, or what they think should be the "norm", to them, they complain and lash out to friends or anyone who will listen.

If it is about renting an apartment and getting turned down, the hassles at the immigration office, or the frustrations you, and all Japanese for that matter, have to go through at the City Hall, or just registering a car, it is completely acceptable and a way to let off steam to me.

However, if it's just plain lashing out at the country, and the culture as a whole, with no basis whatsoever other than you realize you made a mistake and are now stuck for a year or two on a contract in a country that you have come to despise, that is crossing the line I think.

In my 32 year relationship with Japan, I have come to the conclusion, even when I was living there, that this is not my country, I was not born here, and I am not a citizen. I am a guest and if I don't like it, I can just leave. Or, I can attempt to learn the language and culture to gain an understanding of just where the Japanese are coming from and the basis for their thinking.

Sure, I can "***** and moan" about the traffic problems, and the crowded commuter trains, or the fact that they stop running just when the party is getting started, and numerous other things. But I have come to learn over the years that my frustrations are also felt by the Japanese as a whole and they complain about it as much as I do.

Therefore, its quite ok to let off some steam once in a while. As I was not born in Nashville, TN, I sometimes do it, as the customs down here differ somewhat from what I learned up north and in Japan. It's just a matter of blending in and enjoying the culture and country for what it is. And, as I said above, if I don't like it, I can always leave.

Black Piano

Jan 25, 2005, 06:30

Carth

Jan 30, 2005, 03:46

Yumi-Takana

Jan 31, 2005, 05:38

Criticism is alright if it is done in moderation and it isn't meant to hurt anyone. Like if someone says, "I don't like the pollution in Japan" or "I don't really like the crowds in Tokyo" that kind of criticism is ok to me. But if someone says something like "Japanese people are so short and think they know everything! We sure showed them when we bombed them" or something to that effect makes me extremely angry. I hate ignorant people like that.

Flowerbird

Jan 31, 2005, 09:59

If you want to "criticize" another culture, how willing are you to have others criticize yours? it's all very subjective.

Maciamo

Sep 12, 2005, 10:54

From my international experience, I strongly believe that those who chose "No criticism is valid because it is not your culture and foreigners can't understand it." are people who are either too stupid to understand even their own culture, or have never really left their country (except for beach holidays and a week of sightseeing maybe).

I may not mind people criticing my birth country's culture, because
1) it is difficult given that there is a different culture in each of the 3 linguistic groups, each of which linked to a neighbouring country. So if one criticises the Flemings, they may also criticise the Dutch, but maybe not (maybe the Walloons !).

2) I don't mind criticising anything I don't like there myself (and I harsher on it and with my compatriots than with anybody else).

3) I am not very attached to my birth country, having lived in many other countries and feeling more "international".

Maciamo

Sep 12, 2005, 11:13

Criticism is alright if it is done in moderation and it isn't meant to hurt anyone.

I disagree. There is almost no point in criticism if you don't shock people enough for them to realise their weaknesses and change. This is not only true for cultural criticism, but any "justified" criticism. If you want a child to learn, sometime it is good to embarass him/her or make him/her ashamed of his/her ignorance/mistakes, so that they will not forget so easily about their failure and not do it again.

Like if someone says, "I don't like the pollution in Japan" or "I don't really like the crowds in Tokyo" that kind of criticism is ok to me. But if someone says something like "Japanese people are so short and think they know everything!

Your examples are not even criticism to me. They are just a personal opinions, or unreflected, emotional comments.

True criticism should be logically argued, pinpoint the problem(s), explain why it shouldn't be like that (not because of personal feelings, but for example because it could be dangerous/harmful to society), then provide possible solutions. Basically criticism is saying something like "you shouldn't do x because of y and do z instead for this and that reasons".

"Japanese people are so short and think they know everything! We sure showed them when we bombed them"

This reaction (won't call it "criticism") sounds very puerile, or very "lower class". I don't remember meeting anybody saying things like that (not just about Japan but in general, except if it was obviously said as a gross joke).

Maciamo

Sep 12, 2005, 11:23

Critisicism when done constructively and serves a purpose of maybe helping whom (Or what) is being criticized to do better or do something right, can be helpful. But when criticism is used more as a means of insult, then in that context, I find it unneccessary.

That's a good point. But "emotional criticism meant as an insult and not based on any fact" is for me just an insult, not criticism. But I agree that it is possible to criticise based on real facts, and not being constructive about it because the person criticising does not explain why it is bad and how it should be changed.

Maciamo

Sep 12, 2005, 11:26

bah all the other students i work with at college are so evil, they make fun of everyone and everything..doesnt matter who they hurt. They p*ss me cause they stuff about Japan and Japanese people a couple of time and it really makes me made cause its quite rude. They dont know what they are talking about..i just wish i was confident enough to tell them that V.V

We are not talking about adults here (and probably not very mature teenagers either). We could forgive this behaviour on grounds of the lack of maturity, but I sincerely hope they will stop behaving like that past 20 years old (I see you are 17, so I guess the people you refer to are about the same age).

Maciamo

Sep 12, 2005, 12:02

In my 32 year relationship with Japan, I have come to the conclusion, even when I was living there, that this is not my country, I was not born here, and I am not a citizen. I am a guest and if I don't like it, I can just leave. Or, I can attempt to learn the language and culture to gain an understanding of just where the Japanese are coming from and the basis for their thinking.

I think even people born and raised in Japan with the Japanese citizenship can leave the country if they can't stand living there anymore. That's probably why, despite all the linguistic and cultural differences, there are 875,000 Japanese citizens living outside Japan (http://www.jref.com/society/japanese_living_abroad.shtml) (mostly in Western countries), a third of whom permanently.

As for learning more about the language and culture, what would happen if someone learns so much about them that he/she surpass the knowledge of the ordinary Japanese, and still have complaints because he/she is not fully accepted/recognised because he/she looks different ? What is this person has to face ignorance in daily life, knowing more about the culture than the natives, and be dismayed at the little locals know abou their own country ? I have already reached this stage about parts of the culture (history, religion, geography and demographics... sometimes even kanji). So, despite the fact that the Japanese call me "gaijin" ("outsider") and ask me questions like "Do you know where Matsuyama is ?" or "Can you use chopsticks ?", I cannot find a common ground because I quickly realise that not only do I know where is Matsuyama, I can also tell its population, history, important sights, etc., which my Japanese interlocutor cannot. Because I have written about many Japanese cities for JREF's Travel Guide and wrote statistics pages about cities population (http://www.jref.com/society/japan_population_cities.shtml), prefectural GDP per capita (http://www.jref.com/society/japan_prefecture_population_density_gdp_capita.sht ml), etc.

I have reached situations in which a new Japanese acquaintance tells me where his/her hometown is, and I say "oh yes, your are from Amagasaki near Kobe in Hyogo prefecture; isn't the population about 460,000 ?" Or "Oh, you are from Kyoto, have you been to the Fushimi Inari Taisha ?". Usually I only meet blank stares as my interlocutor as no idea, even about their hometown. Likewise, many Japanese ask me if I am Christian (heaven forbids ! :D), so I feel obliged to ask them if they are Buddhist or Shintoist. Some don't even know what is Shintoism (even when I show them the explanation in my Japanese-Japanese dictionary), and if they are Buddhist, many are not sure which sect they belong to, even when I tell them the whole list. No wonder I have people telling me that they didn't like European history or geography at school because it's "too complicated" - if they don't even know their own country.

So what should a foreigner in Japan be supposed to do ? Learn about the basics of the culture and country and immediately know more than ordinary (university-educated) Japanese, or just stay at the same ignorance level as them ? Should I be surprised when my (Japanese) wife asks me what this or that kanji means ? This is where 'adapting into Japanese society' is so different from adapting in the Italian or German society (to mention two countries where I have also lived). If an Italian tell you about a famous Italian painter and you admit that you don't know, their reaction will be "what, you don't know x ?! He is so famous !", in disbelief. In Japan the same situation can happened, but in reverse; the foreigner asks the Japanese "what you don't know who is x ?! He is so famous in Japan". Yet, I found the same local ignorance in Australia (I still remember asking some people about governor Macquarie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachlan_Macquarie), one of the founding fathers of Australia, and nobody knew who he was).

If you live in Japan, Japan bashing is a way to stay sane. Often, the better you know the culture and the language, the more difficult it gets.

If only one had told me that before, I would not have come to Japan ! There is no way for me to stay in a country, talk to the locals, and not learn about the coountry's culture ! So the longer one stays, and the harder it gets. I don't mind life in Japan as long as the people I meet do not fall in the forbidden category described in this article (http://www.jref.com/culture/misconceptions_prejudices.shtml). No, I don't want to hear this stupid theory about Asian being farmers and European hunters anymore ! :mad:

pipokun

Sep 12, 2005, 23:35

Congratulations on your new sub-forum!

If I remember correctly, I gave you the data for your theory on Japanese emigrants and stressful Japanese life before.

What do you think of non-Japanese expats living in Japan? Ghosn-san must be just an exception, but I believe you know much more the culture/history than Japanese or non-Japanese expats. I think it is totally unfair and you should be qualified to be a millionaire here.

Mikawa Ossan

Sep 18, 2005, 09:31

What about this? I put Japan in the same category as my native country. Or any other country, for that matter. Japan is as it is. That's the starting point for anything I say about Japan. There are things that I personally disagree with, but that holds true for any country, or company, or any other social group on the planet. I don't think that my native country's culture is inherently correct and Japanese inherently wrong, nor the reverse. I don't try to be an ex-pat in Japan, nor do I think of myself as one. I just try to be. I come across many problems, and I get frustrated, just as I used to back where I came from. And I complain from time to time. This is natural, and anyone who does this is perfectly within their rights.

However, categorically denying an aspect of any country's culture falls far outside of one's reasonable rights and priviledges as an individual. Especially if you don't know what you're talking about. I want to say an example, but I don't really know any other non-Japanese people anymore, so I don't hear much "Japan-bashing". I'm sorry about this, but the point is that "your" country or culture is not inherently superior to any other country or culture, Japan and its people included. Most people can only see another country or culture through the lens of their native one, and that's fine, but you must keep in mind that everybody has their own cultural lens. Why is yours better than anyone else's?

So in sum, I think that as long as you criticize Japan, but are mindful that there's plenty of dirty laundry in your basket, too, you are OK. Perhaps too simply put. (^o^)

Maciamo

Sep 18, 2005, 09:37

Pachipro

Sep 23, 2005, 23:25

As for learning more about the language and culture, what would happen if someone learns so much about them that he/she surpass the knowledge of the ordinary Japanese, and still have complaints because he/she is not fully accepted/recognised because he/she looks different ? What is this person has to face ignorance in daily life, knowing more about the culture than the natives, and be dismayed at the little locals know abou their own country ? I have already reached this stage about parts of the culture (history, religion, geography and demographics... sometimes even kanji). So, despite the fact that the Japanese call me "gaijin" ("outsider") and ask me questions like "Do you know where Matsuyama is ?" or "Can you use chopsticks ?", I cannot find a common ground because I quickly realise that not only do I know where is Matsuyama, I can also tell its population, history, important sights, etc., which my Japanese interlocutor cannot. Because I have written about many Japanese cities for JREF's Travel Guide and wrote statistics pages about cities population, prefectural GDP per capita, etc.

I was in the same boat as you as I knew alot more about Japanese history than many Japanese I met as I had a great interest in learning as much as I could while at university. I even know more details than my wife, but she knows the basics. The same goes for some aspects of the culture and the local area I lived in, but I would not be dismayed that they knew less than I do as it was probably not an interest of theirs. In some aspects, they knew more than I did as it was an interest of theirs and not mine.

It's the same in this country as I probably know more about American history, politics, the local town I live in, etc. than do many natives. But that is because I choose to learn about such things while others do not. Are they ignorant? Not really, unless they do not know the basics that everyone, from high school drop-outs to university educated should know, like who our founding fathers were or who is the vice-president of the US and such or the mayor of the town. These types I would rather not associate with. But it doesn't bother me nor am I dismayed as it is their choice.

So what should a foreigner in Japan be supposed to do ? Learn about the basics of the culture and country and immediately know more than ordinary (university-educated) Japanese, or just stay at the same ignorance level as them ?
If that is the foreigners choice than so be it, but I wonder if it is really basic knowledge for the average Japanese, even university educated, to know what the GDP of his/her prefecture is for example, or the history of the Yoritomo family if that is not their interest. What you consider basic information and education may be information that is not required to be known even among University graduates.

Should I be surprised when my (Japanese) wife asks me what this or that kanji means ? This is where 'adapting into Japanese society' is so different from adapting in the Italian or German society (to mention two countries where I have also lived). If an Italian tell you about a famous Italian painter and you admit that you don't know, their reaction will be "what, you don't know x ?! He is so famous !", in disbelief. In Japan the same situation can happened, but in reverse; the foreigner asks the Japanese "what you don't know who is x ?! He is so famous in Japan". Yet, I found the same local ignorance in Australia (I still remember asking some people about governor Macquarie, one of the founding fathers of Australia, and nobody knew who he was).
No, you shouldn't be surprised if your wife asks you as her interests are different from yours.

I can't understand why it is so different from adapting into Italian or German society. If I went to live in Italy for example and had no interest in learning about their arts and someone said to me in disbelief, "What, you don't know x?! He is so famous!" I would reply that I had never studied about "x" as I don't have an interest in the arts. On the other hand, I may have an interest in a part of Italian culture that my Italian friend didn't have and he might not know about the "x" that I was talking about.

For example there are many people in New York City who have lived there all their lives and have never once visited the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building. Thay may not even know how many stories the building has and they are University educated. Does this make them ignorant? No, as it was just not an interest of theirs. But if they do not know where the Statue of Liberty came from and why it stands in New York Harbor than I would say they are ignorant as everyone should know this basic information. I'm sure there are also many educated people who cannot tell you the GDP of New York City or per capita income as it is not in their interest and is not a basic educational requirement.

I would guess that it is the same in any country, even Japan. So, if I say something that is basic to me because of my interest in, say, Japanese history, about the Yoritomo family and my Japanese friend doesn't know it, it would not surprise me. But, if he didn't know that Kyoto use to be the ancient capitol of Japan, for example, than I would be surprised and think he was ignorant.

nurizeko

Sep 23, 2005, 23:36

Criticism is perfectly fine, just being rude and impolite for the sake of causing offense, thats where the line is drawn.

Im quite happy to criticise many things, not just japan. :cool:

nestowa

Sep 28, 2005, 05:45

I don't think the poll is complete. I agree with the first answer, but as a perpetual student, when learning critisism in the form of questioning as in why... or how come... is used to gain knowledge of a situation. This is good to gain clarity of a forum. I don't mind if someone critisizes the culture of the country I live in, hell I do it. I would like to be told if I am being preceived as bashing or critisizing another culture. Then I would like to be taught what my bashing preception really meant to the person of the said culture.

Maciamo

Sep 29, 2005, 18:52

Are they ignorant? Not really, unless they do not know the basics that everyone, from high school drop-outs to university educated should know, like who our founding fathers were or who is the vice-president of the US and such or the mayor of the town. These types I would rather not associate with.

I think that the problem is that I come from a society where the exigencies regarding "cultural knowledge" are much higher than in most other countries, and Japan may well be at the bottom of the scale in the developed world in this regard (difficult to say whether the US or Australia are before or after, as the educational gap are much bigger there than in homogenous and "everyone-knows-about-the-same" Japan).

I can't understand why it is so different from adapting into Italian or German society.

Probably because Italian and German people have higher exigencies about cultural knowledge. I had a hard time in Australia though. With British people, only faced blatant ignorance among the "lower classes", even about their own mother tongue. I met people who couldn't understand any word a bit formal that I used (I tried writing it down, as I thought it may be a pronuciation problem, but they had never seen the words before. I forgot what they were, but one of them was "mausoleum"; I used this word to talk about the Taj Mahal when I was in India with some British tourists I had met on the way).

But, if he didn't know that Kyoto use to be the ancient capitol of Japan, for example, than I would be surprised and think he was ignorant.

I guess it's just a matter of education system and cultural dispositions. I don't say people should know about their prefecture's GDP, but I can't believe that some Japanese believe that Argentina is in Europe, Napoleon was a medieval knight in armour (sic !) or can't name even 2/3 of Japan's prefectures. Likewise, I would be amazed if a US citizen didn't know that Montana or Delaware were the name of a US states or thought that New York were their capital (such people exist ! I have met some). I can't think of anyone in my country (or most European countries) lacking such basic knowledge.

Kinsao

Sep 30, 2005, 17:16

"Mausoleum" is a lovely word.... :-) How sad people hadn't heard of it... I think I'm not especially well-educated but I knew that word... I don't know where from...

Anyway, what I really wanted to say, it doesn't belong here so much, but I wanted to pat on the back the forum moderators who speedily banned a recent Japan-basher. Nice one mods. :cool:

Actually it was the first time on here I encountered a purely mindless Japan-basher - most people at least take a little time to reason their arguments. :o

Pierrot le Fou

Oct 17, 2005, 13:54

Having lived here for 2.5 years, I've come across the following beliefs about complaining and Japan:

Anything goes. ***** as much as you want, when you want, where you want. Nobody will stop you.
Bitching to foreigners will be theraputic, as generally everyone piles on their complaints, you have a giant bitchfest, and it's very mollifying.
Bitching to Japanese will simply get you more frustrating, because bitching is not very Japanese, and Japanese people in general tend to get a tad defense when you start shitting on their country for no apparent reason.
Discussing problems with Japan with Japanese is the best. They agree, and crap on their own country more than the most unruly group of foreigners could, with more poignant complaints, and more passion behind them.

It took me a while to figure these out. I would ***** about discrimination, but because of my lack of social graces, I wasn't adept at complaining in a Japanese way which means it didn't work out so well. I'd just get complaints back at me, because of the way I was talking.

For instance, the previously mentioned 4 foreigner rule in baseball (you can only have 4 foreigners on a baseball team)... If I said, "Gee, that blows, because the level of play sucks" then I get complaints. If I say, "Gee, if the Hanshin Tigers had another player like George Arias, then they may have won the Nippon Series!" then I get a slew of complaints about the 4 foreigner rule, and the underperforming of Japanese Hanshin players.

It's just the nature of the beast. We want to complain in our way, but get poor responses, and then ***** about the responses we got as opposed to what we wanted to get. ***** their way, and you get some buddies who hate the same things. Dislike governor Ishihara? The Japaense do too! Dislike the sound trucks during election weeks? You don't hold a candle to your bartender who is asleep from 4am-noon!

And then you start to realize that bitching is fine, but far more theraputic when you do it the right way. Everyone bitches about their own countries with their countrymen, but how many times have you heard a bitter American lash out at people who bash America even if they would have made the same comment? How many times have you heard someone say, "How could Americans be so stupid as to elect Bush?" and have someone who despises Bush argue that Americans aren't stupid, and try to berate the person for a comment they mostly agree with...

Point is, anything goes. Restricting bitching would only cause a lot more people to lose it in Japan. But if you want to be taken seriously, then don't ***** to Japanese, or ***** in a Japanese way about Japan to the Japanese for better results.

Minxie

Oct 17, 2005, 21:21

if a japanese person come into this forum and post a thread on why america sux, nobody betta say nothin
all i'm sayin

Ditto that times 100.

If you can't take someones criticism on your own country, then it's wrong for you to bash someone elses.

Also, if you find it necessary to criticize every little aspect without sufficient evidence why for example, "Japan sucks", then your argument is insubstantial. In any good paper you might write for a College class, you have a thesis and argue that based on facts. That, like everyone knows, gives your paper a cohesive and valid argument - which can have either a positive or negative opinion/outlook (this is if you are writing a persuasive essay - even if you are writing a persuasive essay, one needs substantial evidence to support his or her own thesis).

celtician

Oct 18, 2005, 21:26

Senseiman came up with an interesting comment. Here in Jland they have a much more heightened sense of of nationality...Why???? Anyway....How many times have you experienced a conversation with just a regular citizen of this country like this:
A:Do you likeu sushi?
You: No not really.
A: Ahhh you donto like Japan

Retarded or what?

Silverpoint

Oct 21, 2005, 11:04

How many times have you experienced a conversation with just a regular citizen of this country like this:
A: Do you likeu sushi?
You: No not really.
A: Ahhh you donto like Japan

Strangely, I've never experienced anything like that.

Mikawa Ossan

Oct 21, 2005, 20:46

Anyway....How many times have you experienced a conversation with just a regular citizen of this country like this:
A: Do you likeu sushi?
You: No not really.
A: Ahhh you donto like Japan

Retarded or what?
I have never even heard of a conversation like this EXCEPT--

There is a kind of joke that I've heard Japanese people use amongst themselves, and I use it too, when talking in Japanese from time to time.

It goes something like this:

A-san (Japanese person) says something like, "Believe it or not, but I've never (insert something Japanese).

B-san (another Japanese person) says, "Really? Are you sure you're Japanese?"

It's not the same as your example, but it's what I know. Remember, sometimes something that sounds racist or discriminating is the same kind of joke that Japanese would use amongst themselves. Does that excuse the comment? It does with me, but that's just one man's opinion. :wave:

yukio_michael

Apr 10, 2006, 12:47

I had something to say here... but changed my mind.

gaijinalways

Apr 11, 2006, 18:36

I guess what I find 'annoying' in Japan is sometimes the attempt to justify not complaining about something even though you have provided evidence with links to articles, etc. and are knowledgable about your topic area, and yet someone gets bashed for stating there is a problem concerning that area in Japan and how you think it could be solved. Now sometimes you get into an expansion comparing this situation in Japan compared to other countries, but sometimes you wish people's anwers were not just 'oh, you don't know enough Japanese' or 'you're not Japanese, so how would you know' (both of which seem to be common slogans used even by Japanophiles here in Japan).

Beyond that, people will complain, and Pierro Le Fuo's comments really ring true for me. I just find it difficult to get Japanese people to even recognize a problem sometimes, with them sometimes taking the stance that 'only foreigners complain about it, so it is a foreign problem'!

Shrapnel

Apr 11, 2006, 20:34

In another thread (Why does Japan suck so much) the issue of whether or not a foreigner should criticize Japan was raised. One poster said that it is inappropriate for someone to criticize someone elses country, while I felt that it was perfectly reasonable to do so, so long as you could back up what you were saying.
What do you think? Is it OK for foreigners to 'bash' Japan, and if so how far can you go before you go too far?

Is it okay for illegal immigrants who illegally snuck into the U.S. to scream for justice whenever they don't get their way ?

Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals ?

Japan has the highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.

As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.

osias

Apr 12, 2006, 01:39

Japanese ppl have a blind spot in their field of vision. It is ok to criticize as long as it is reasonable. (But I guess ppl often don't agree on what's reasonable.)

MeAndroo

Apr 12, 2006, 02:58

Japanese ppl have a blind spot in their field of vision. It is ok to criticize as long as it is reasonable. (But I guess ppl often don't agree on what's reasonable.)

Actually, everyone has a blind spot in their field of vision where the optic nerve connects to the retina. Your brain is just able to fill in the blanks on a regular basis. There are ways of demonstrating it through activities like this. (http://www.tedmontgomery.com/the_eye/optcnrve.html)

Now sometimes you get into an expansion comparing this situation in Japan compared to other countries, but sometimes you wish people's anwers were not just 'oh, you don't know enough Japanese' or 'you're not Japanese, so how would you know' (both of which seem to be common slogans used even by Japanophiles here in Japan).

The reason this bugs you is because it's a faulty debate method known as ad hominem. I'd hope this would bug anybody.

godppgo

Apr 12, 2006, 03:55

Is it okay for illegal immigrants who illegally snuck into the U.S. to scream for justice whenever they don't get their way ?
Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals ?
Japan has the highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.
As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.

This is exactly something I wanted to point out. After been in this forum for a couple of months now I've observed some (not all) posters complaining about "why do Japanese do this" or "why is Japan like this" and demand Japan to change. I am just wondering have it ever occur to these complainers that you are on other's turf? When I came to North America I found some western behaviors annoying but I am okay with that. I asked people how should I behave to integrate to your society and I was totally fine with it.

It seems that for some westerners in Japan, rather than trying to understand and immerse into Japanese society, they demand Japanese to suit their need. Of course, not all foreigners in Japan are like this. Most of them might not agree with Japanese behaviors but at least they don't demand Japanese to behave in certain ways so the gaijin will feel more at home.

osias

Apr 12, 2006, 14:51

Actually, everyone has a blind spot in their field of vision where the optic nerve connects to the retina. Your brain is just able to fill in the blanks on a regular basis. There are ways of demonstrating it through activities like this. (http://www.tedmontgomery.com/the_eye/optcnrve.html)
Do you know the word "analogy"?

godppgo

Apr 12, 2006, 15:38

Shrapnel

Apr 12, 2006, 18:34

This is exactly something I wanted to point out. After been in this forum for a couple of months now I've observed some (not all) posters complaining about "why do Japanese do this" or "why is Japan like this" and demand Japan to change. I am just wondering have it ever occur to these complainers that you are on other's turf? When I came to North America I found some western behaviors annoying but I am okay with that. I asked people how should I behave to integrate to your society and I was totally fine with it.
It seems that for some westerners in Japan, rather than trying to understand and immerse into Japanese society, they demand Japanese to suit their need. Of course, not all foreigners in Japan are like this. Most of them might not agree with Japanese behaviors but at least they don't demand Japanese to behave in certain ways so the gaijin will feel more at home.

Most westerners in Japan are arrogant and are not used to being treated like second class citizens. Conform and reform should be the modus vivendi of all foreigners living and working in Japan !

Mikawa Ossan

Apr 12, 2006, 18:54

Most westerners in Japan are arrogant and are not used to being treated like second class citizens.
Let's not split hairs here. Don't you mean white people? I know this sounds racist, but if you subsitute "white people" for "westerners" I would agree with that sentence 100%.

Ouch, huh?

MeAndroo

Apr 13, 2006, 00:29

Do you know the word "analogy"?

Certainly, I enjoy it almost as much as the word "tangent."

gaijinalways

Apr 13, 2006, 01:03

Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals ?

No, sometimes it's much lower than that, the treatment that is. I might say in some cases the clows in the circus are being paid at least to be laughed at.

Japan has the highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.

Depends on how you define highest standard of living. For me, that includes the quality of life, not just the income level.

As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.

Since when　do guests pay taxes?

Most westerners in Japan are arrogant and are not used to being treated like second class citizens. Conform and reform should be the modus vivendi of all foreigners living and working in Japan !

Sorry, you can be treated as second class anywhere, but I feel Japan is one of the most developed countries that is infamous for badly treating visitors based solely on their appearance, not necessarily on any other qualities. I've been badly treated in France and England, but no where on any scale like Japan. About the only place I can state where it seemed to be worse was China (which I don't consider as fully developed, from a technological and modern sense)! Though strangely enough I enjoyed living in Hong Kong more, go figure!

If people are complaining about customs, you're right, it's poor manners. Customs are different alll over the world, some you will like or feel are easy to adjust to, other take more of an effort (though they may be ignored sometimes if it's somewhat more of a life choice, like eating sushi). But if we are talking about discrimanatory practices, that's different, as Japan continues to not have any laws prohibiting or penalizing discrimanatory behaviour. Instead, people must sue over each individual case (which is still pretty prohibitvely expensive) and I think aspects of discrimination are not well understood by the judges hearing the cases, thus some cases are dismissed simply because the judges can't apply clear standards to the cases.

MeAndroo

Apr 13, 2006, 01:27

osias

Apr 13, 2006, 03:21

Criticism itself is not wrong, but ppl tend to dislike someone with "I'm right, you are wrong" kind of attitude. Many ppl tend to do this, maybe including myself. It strikes them as rude. So maybe it really depends how you express yourself.
In another asian country where I live in, many negative evaluations and complaints by foreigners are met with "Go Home!!!" (At least, it looks like no one does this in the forum.) It's about losing/saving their "face". They are proud ppl.

Dutch Baka

Apr 13, 2006, 03:22

Let's not split hairs here. Don't you mean white people? I know this sounds racist, but if you subsitute "white people" for "westerners" I would agree with that sentence 100%.
Ouch, huh?

What do you mean with westerners? Americans? Dutch? French people?

100% disagree on westerners!

godppgo

Apr 13, 2006, 03:26

What's interesting to me is the Japanese definition of foreigner, in how it differs from that of the west. Most korean zainichi will tell you that.

If foreigners living IN Japan can't criticize it, and those living outside lack the first-hand knowledge to criticize it, who will challenge their long-standing traditions of treating foreigners like crap? The attitude of some posters reminds me of those Americans who say "if you don't like it, you can get out." Attempting to effect social change for the equal treatment of foreigners living legally in your society isn't something to be brushed off so easily.

I don't think Japanese are in nature racist. They are just not used to and not sure how to deal with gaijin. Lack of experience with gaijin then makes them defensive when it comes to interacting with gaijin. When people become defensive they retract their tentacles and hide in their shells. Put yourself in their shoes and try to imagine what's it like growing up in an environemnt where 99.9% of people around you is Japaneses (seeing gaijin from TV doesn't count). Not to mention the territorial trait common to many asian people.

Criticism is okay as long as its made under the intention that one is trying to understand and interact sincerely with the Japanese. So the more proper saying would be "If you don't like it, get used to it, learn their language(at least a few phrases), show your sincereness, be one of them".

MeAndroo

Apr 13, 2006, 03:43

Oddly enough, the Japanese are UNracist. Theirs is an odd xenophobia that revolves around wanting foreigners who live there to assimilate totally, forsaking citizenships, passports, and even surnames. The term gaijin doesn't mean foreigner, it means outsider. Koreans who are born and raised in Japan, but maintain their Korean surname are treated worse than a Korean who moves to Japan and becomes a naturalized citizen. This isn't racist; rather, it's anti-non-Japanese. Examples naturally exist outside of this, such as the treatment some mixed people get, but I see that as having a connection to the "you aren't Japanese" motivation.

I understand their society is relatively homogenous, but I don't think the everyday behavior of the average Japanese is the issue here. I tend to think the average Japanese is more willing to extend greetings to an obvious foreigner than someone in say, America, might be. My problem isn't with these people, it's with the way the government can sometimes systematically focus on un-assimilated foreigners. By saying a typical Korean Zainichi without a Japanese surname isn't a Japanese citizen, forcing them to carry gaijin torokusho (foreign registration card), they send the message that they AREN'T a part of the Japanese people. This opens them up to bullying through school and difficulties in the workplace.

For example, the librarian at the international center at Waseda U is a Korean. Her parents had adopted a Japanese surname before she was born and didn't encounter any real problems. At some point in her early life, their surname was restored to the original Korean, and she was bullied pretty mercilessly in school for it.

gaijinalways

Apr 15, 2006, 22:47

Theirs is an odd xenophobia that revolves around wanting foreigners who live there to assimilate totally, forsaking citizenships, passports, and even surnames.

This is somewhat true for any country, but as stated, more so in Japan.

The term gaijin doesn't mean foreigner, it means outsider.

Does it ever!

This isn't racist; rather, it's anti-non-Japanese.

It certainly is discrimination (doesn't matter if itis racial or not).

I don't think Japanese are in nature racist. They are just not used to and not sure how to deal with gaijin. Lack of experience with gaijin then makes them defensive when it comes to interacting with gaijin. When people become defensive they retract their tentacles and hide in their shells. Put yourself in their shoes and try to imagine what's it like growing up in an environemnt where 99.9% of people around you is Japaneses (seeing gaijin from TV doesn't count). Not to mention the territorial trait common to many asian people.

I see this arguement a lot. I suppose at times it would be difficult to distinguish between whether people are discrimanatory or simply xenophobic or ignorant. But I would think especially urban areas would have more contact with non-Japanese, so this 'lack of experience' should be declining, no? You could argue the same for some countries where the population is predominantly one major culture, but Japan seems to revel in it. That and the government's policy of promoting 'foreigners as a problem' doesn't help.

Criticism itself is not wrong, but ppl tend to dislike someone with "I'm right, you are wrong" kind of attitude. Many ppl tend to do this, maybe including myself. It strikes them as rude. So maybe it really depends how you express yourself.

This true, if you tend to polarize an arguement, it will be more liklely to be ill received. The funny thing is I see some Japanese doing it 'gaijin always do this...' type statements that piss me off. How can they lump Americans, French, Brazilians, etc. in the same category?

yukio_michael

Apr 16, 2006, 07:15

Is it okay for illegal immigrants who illegally snuck into the U.S. to scream for justice whenever they don't get their way?Is this a serious question--- your posts have been so unctuous, first you're saying that a girl is worthless & crazy if she doesn't drink alcohol and eat natto, which went over so well, and now you're basically talking about 'the illegals' being whiney about trying to improve their standard of living, while at the same time, doing jobs not wanted and not filled by the host country, all while aoiding being classified as a felon, or persona non grata for being there illegally... try explaining the economies of California and Texas without these immigrants.

Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals?Why on earth would people ever want to be treated as equals? Given the chance to earn an equal wage, or say, the chance to get housing equally, or not to be looked at as criminals when they walk down the street of their prefecture, not to be the focus of sensationalized news coverage that tries to frame them as the purveyors of crime, not to be thought of as subpar human beings, or 'different' human beings who do not or can not think, learn, or act to be a part of Japanese society... to be free of statements of government officials that suppose that they might riot in the occasion of another earthquake. Why on earth would anyone ever criticize that?

Japan has the highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion.Japan will continue to have the highest standard of living, solely in your opinion, because that is just not true... anyone who has had to shop at a 99yen store for the majority of their meals knows this to be true.

...and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.First, you don't, so you'll have to put up with other people's pesky opinions on the matter, just like you give us yours... Second, we're talking about mostly people who all have opinions about a place based on having lived there, things they've experienced, etc, not out-right 'bashing'.

As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.Complaining probably does get you nowhere... but at what point do you stop being a 'guest' and start being a resident? At what part do you become a member of society, and not just gaikokujin, if you are Chinese, or Korean, or Brazillian, or from the United States... when? Your logic of forcing people to only say good things about ANY country just fosters more and more ignorance.

yukio_michael

Apr 16, 2006, 07:36

Japan continues to not have any laws prohibiting or penalizing discrimanatory behaviour.I think it's important to point this sort of thing out--- I would ad it to my previous post, but the editing system at jref has been odd lately, and it makes editing your threads a bit of a chore because you have to re-format them.

Japan also does not in fact have any laws prohibiting hate-speech. From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan):
Hate speech is not a criminal offense but speech of insult, such as calling someone "fool!", is a minor civil offense which results in monetary compensation which is lower than the cost of going through judicial process. Japan does not have human rights legislation which enforces or penalises discriminatory activities committed by citizen, business or non governmental organisation. Attempt has been made in legislature to enact human rights legislation. In 2002, a draft was submitted to the house of common but it did not reach the vote. Had the law passed, it would have set up the Human Rights commission which would investigate, name and shame or financially penalise discriminatory practice as well as hate speech committed by private citizens or establishments.

...additionally, there is not a good history of treatment of indiginous minorities within Japan nor amnesty seekers, nor even females if you take in to consideration the workplace.

If these are the things that people are criticizing, I'd say that this dialouge is valid concerning any nation.

gaijinalways

Apr 16, 2006, 13:47

Well put Yukio, makes sense to me. But a lot of people argue that other countries don't allow full rights to foreign residents, which is true to some extent. Examples included Israel, and I have read about problems in Sweden and Finland for married couples who can't live together. I'm still surprised that for the size of the Japanese economy (2nd largest in the world for a nation) and as a nation with a fairly high standard of living, yet laws concerning 'equal' rights for foreign residents, women, and minorities, Japan ranks pretty badly. I think comparing Japan to countries that are just as bad or worse doesn' t push Japan to try to change for the better. Hopefully all countries should be trying to raise their standards, not just simply looking for others that are worse.

Han Chan

Apr 16, 2006, 19:56

I think that people who come from other countries naturally have other perspectives on things in Japan than the native population. That is how it is to be forigner!

If you find that some things are different in Japan you should first try to understand why. Ask curiously instead complaining. Finally if you find that there are things that you dislike, you should not expect that you or your Japanese frields have much power to change these things.

It is fine to engage in dialogue - you observation might be interesting, but if you think you can change things by merely critizing/bitching, you are wrong. It is like that in Japan and everywhere else. Actually, if you start complaining about the Danes in Denmark you will quickly be told that you are free to leave! The Japanese are often too polite to tell their forign friends to stop complaining all the time.

osias

Apr 17, 2006, 01:21

This true, if you tend to polarize an arguement, it will be more liklely to be ill received. The funny thing is I see some Japanese doing it 'gaijin always do this...' type statements that piss me off. How can they lump Americans, French, Brazilians, etc. in the same category?

Right, I agree. They see no difference.

Shrapnel

Apr 17, 2006, 15:59

[QUOTE=yukio_michael]Is this a serious question--- your posts have been so unctuous, first you're saying that a girl is worthless & crazy if she doesn't drink alcohol and eat natto, which went over so well, and now you're basically talking about 'the illegals' being whiney about trying to improve their standard of living, while at the same time, doing jobs not wanted and not filled by the host country, all while aoiding being classified as a felon, or persona non grata for being there illegally... try explaining the economies of California and Texas without these immigrants.

First of all, no illegal should complain about his/her standard of living if they are illegally here ! And it should be a felony to defy U.S. Law and border security. We apply it to the Haitians and everyone else who is non-American.
What makes Mexican's any different ? Is it because they choose to depress our wages and overburden are health care and education system while hard working tax paying American citizens foot the bill ? I don't understand your level of reasoning. I do beleive that America should develop a more comprehensive way to deal with this issues but comments like you made are completely ludicrous.

Why on earth would people ever want to be treated as equals? Given the chance to earn an equal wage, or say, the chance to get housing equally, or not to be looked at as criminals when they walk down the street of their prefecture, not to be the focus of sensationalized news coverage that tries to frame them as the purveyors of crime, not to be thought of as subpar human beings, or 'different' human beings who do not or can not think, learn, or act to be a part of Japanese society... to be free of statements of government officials that suppose that they might riot in the occasion of another earthquake.

Equality is a fundamental right that all western countries espouse. Again, those that enter the U.S. illegally are criminals. And you can' apply this to Japan. This is a foreign country where all non-Japanese are guest, not equals.

Japan will continue to have the highest standard of living, solely in your opinion, because that is just not true... anyone who has had to shop at a 99yen store for the majority of their meals knows this to be true.
First, you don't, so you'll have to put up with other people's pesky opinions on the matter, just like you give us yours

Japan has the highest standard of living regardless of whether you shop at the 99 yen store. The cost of living is expensive because Japan produces such high quality products. If you can afford that then I suggest you get a higher paying job. Not everything has the be cheap you know. I can give you so many examples but I just don't have time now.

yukio_michael

Apr 18, 2006, 01:31

Is it because they choose to depress our wages and overburden are health care and education system while hard working tax paying American citizens foot the bill?What taxes are YOU paying for Mexicans? And last I checked, Mexican immigrants didn't have the most stellar healthcare. Last, depress our wages, you mean by taking away the lucrative dangerous jobs such as in slaughterhouses where they earn a fraction of a living wage?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for doing it by the books. I just think that in certain instances, you can't declare that millions of people living in your country who's only crime is the lack of a valid visa to be illegal--- Reagan gave 2.7 million immigrants amnesty in 1986 with the Immigration Reform & Control Act. I'm not for giving criminals free passage, I'm not for skirting the system of law, but just as in Japan, there is a function for these people living here, if you like it or not, and they're taking nothing away from you.

I don't understand your level of reasoning. I do beleive that America should develop a more comprehensive way to deal with this issues but comments like you made are completely ludicrous.All nations should develop a more comprehensive way to deal with immigration issues... there are these issues being raised in Japan now it's focusing on the finger printing of foreigners. Japan has illegals too, doing the same type of work that the Japanese choose not to do, I don't believe they will expell them.

Equality is a fundamental right that all western countries espouse. Again, those that enter the U.S. illegally are criminals. And you can' apply this to Japan. This is a foreign country where all non-Japanese are guest, not equals.I would hope that equality is a fundamental human right. You speak like a great nationalist, of expeling the un-desirables. "All non-Japanese"... to what extent are you extending your final solution to the immigration problem? Every race in Japan not Japanese? I'm glad the actual goverments don't act the way you think, or we'd be rounding up people in the steets to put in blockades.

Japan has the highest standard of living regardless of whether you shop at the 99 yen store.[/b]NO it doesn't. I'll ask you now, are you saying this because a) you've lived there, or b) you read articles concerning Japan's economic condition, because it seems as if neither of these two things are true.

This is a fairly good article summary on facets of the Japanese standard of living... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_standard_in_Japan), asides from that you have to look at GDP, furthermore, a bigmac is a bigmac anywhere you buy it--- if you buy it for 6 dollars in Japan, it doesn't mean you're getting a better value. There are Japanese products that cost more in Japan than they do outside of Japan, which must explain your idea of their stellar standard of living.

Also, take a look at the gini coefficiant for a broader look at the function of income in Japan & the gap between the rich and poor in Japan. Japan has a much better gap between say their top managers and their employees (as compared to the United States who's workers and top level managers are extremely polarized), however there is a growing gap between the poor or middle class and lower and the very rich in Japan. Japan is very much becoming a place of two classes: Haves & Have nots. This has occured at different times in Japan's history where economic situations dictated that certain people became instantly wealthy, for example, during the bubble economy.

The cost of living is expensive because Japan produces such high quality products.Now who's being ludicrous?

If you can afford that then I suggest you get a higher paying job. Not everything has the be cheap you know. I can give you so many examples but I just don't have time now.Yeah, those lousy low paid, over-worked employees should just work harder. You're a real humanitarian aren't you.

Again, are you saying this based on study of the economy, your travels to Japan, or just your own fantasies?

~ another nod: here (http://www.pliink.com/mt/marxy/archives/000287.html)

yukio_michael

Apr 18, 2006, 01:39

Also, we're not comparing standard of living in Japan to standard of living in Nepal... we're looking at it world-wide, which I think it hovers somewhere around 9th... I'll edit this second post when I find a link to something relevant. It's a standard of living that has certainly made it a less-desirable place to live, if someone could link to any older jref forum threads about that I couldn't locate those either... dang it.

Culturally, I feel like the Aughts have brought with them two unfortunate, but understandable developments in Japan: the acknowledgment of wealth discrepancy and a re-emergence of narikin culture. Although the myth of "everyone being middle class" still drives more and more people every year into consumer debt and sarakin-related troubles, the difference between poor and rich is becoming much more apparent in everyday Japanese life. Especially with the friitaa and those joining the workforce, some people clearly have money to spend and the others are eating at Yoshinoya everyday. I don't want to exaggerate this phenomenon, but I do think the rise in income equality has crossed a threshold and the peak of the iceberg is dipping above the water.Excerpt from a previous link--- though I think it shares my opinion well enough to quote.

More as I think of it.

Shrapnel

Apr 18, 2006, 14:41

Yukio,

I see your point but we seem to be drifting a little off topic.

Here's what I think. I'm basing my logic off of empirical observation by using my own experience. I have been living and working in Japan now for the last four years and so when I say Japan's standard of living is high it's because I live a life of opulence in comparison to most.

You, on the other hand, are using a more authoritative approach to your reasoning by backing up what you say with references and a comprehensive analagy of Japan and past and present and how it relates to the average Japanese family.

yukio_michael

Apr 18, 2006, 14:57

You, on the other hand, are using a more authoritative approach to your reasoning by backing up what you say with references and a comprehensive analagy of Japan and past and present and how it relates to the average Japanese family.I lived there for six months as well, and I can tell you that all manner of people have different ideas about what constitutes a 'high standard of living', even those I knew who lived in fairly nice parts of Shibuya had to have supplimental income as well as become slaves to the companies they work for--- ie, sleeping at work, etc etc--- and these are people whom I would consider to be well off. None of them considered that the horrible work conditions were fair or adequate standards of living--- if they could afford to live in luxury or not.

You cant judge a nation's standard of living on your own opulance.

ps. I'll add one last thing... there is a difference between "freedom", and "freedom of purchase", and as Billy Bragg once said, "You'll wait a long time for a Beverly Hills coup...."

sl0thmachin3

Apr 18, 2006, 20:26

One should know what one talks about if ever one wants to criticize. I mean generalizations do not really present the entire picture and discussions using such "enveloping statements" go nowhere. Besides which, objectivity is well nigh impossible when critizing another culture. In the first place, one uses one's own culture for basing their criticism. Comparing cultures objectively is very difficult especially if one is not familiar with the other culture. My take is be open-minded. People do things because that's how they were brought up. If one does not understand why or how such behavior came about I feel it is best not to comment on it.

gaijinalways

Apr 20, 2006, 00:38

slothmachin3 wrote My take is be open-minded. People do things because that's how they were brought up. If one does not understand why or how such behavior came about I feel it is best not to comment on it.

Looks like you might not be saying much than:relief: ! Actually, I think sometimes people in Japan don't seem to know, or at least they don't let on that they know or think about problems that exist here. The infamous 'can't think outside the box' sentiment applies to all cultures to some extent, but it does seem more apt for some. But if people recognize something as a problem, within the culture, than ignoring it won't solve anything. Often some cultures have been pushed to recognition of a problem by another culture, though most likely the culture with the problem still needs to take action.

dangdaga

Apr 21, 2006, 18:32

What are you implying? Your veiled comment lost me.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2250/60158873350585tu.jpg

pipokun

Apr 21, 2006, 20:09

Also, take a look at the gini coefficiant for a broader look at the function of income in Japan & the gap between the rich and poor in Japan. Japan has a much better gap between say their top managers and their employees (as compared to the United States who's workers and top level managers are extremely polarized), however there is a growing gap between the poor or middle class and lower and the very rich in Japan. Japan is very much becoming a place of two classes: Haves & Have nots. This has occured at different times in Japan's history where economic situations dictated that certain people became instantly wealthy, for example, during the bubble economy.

Enlighten me more about the coefficient and Japan.

Yumiko33

Apr 22, 2006, 14:25

I don't understand who somebody can speak bad about one country, if this person don't know enought about history, religion, laws, and mach more things. First, when you wanna to speak about one country, and peoples in this country, you must to know language, and will be good, that you spent some your time in this country. Differece from Japan and other countries is normal. So, I have a cousin who is a vegeterian, and when he said: "I can understood peoples who can eat a little chicken..." I just said to him: "Try to live on the North Pole, maybe you will be have a chance to understand." Each country has good and bad things, so everybody try to live in country whose laws and life-system like.

yukio_michael

Apr 22, 2006, 20:42

Enlighten me more about the coefficient and Japan.The Gini coefficiant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_index) or index can be used to messure income inequality. Starting before world war II, Japan was privy to a lot of I suppose, industrialist classes whom lost a great deal of wealth in the war, and during the occupation, which had an effect of leveling off the inequalities enjoyed thereafter.

In the bubble period, there was a great exapnse in wealth and spending for people mostly who had already owned property, as property values increased dramatically.

In 1990, the index was at 0.3643, and in 2002, it was at 0.3812, and seems to be rising (the coefficiant in the United States was 0.368 in 2000) link (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:w6eN7dqMIEEJ:www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5%3Fnn20060104f3.htm+gini+coefficient +japan&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1).

A higher number indicates greater inequality up to a theoretical maximum of 1.0, in which one person controls the entire wealth of a country.

What I think, any country should try to do is to a) try to prevent a system that rewards strictly the wealthy classes, and b) does not out-right punish wealth and profit.

Former Democratic Party of Japan leader Naoto Kan recently accused Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of accelerating the trend toward "liberalism for the strong," which he said is turning more people into either "Horiemon (referring to the young Internet mogul Takafumi Horie) or homeless."
link: above.

~And... for the curious. This (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19248) thread, was what I was looking for when I was arguing w/ shrapnel nee mctojo earlier...

gaijinalways

Apr 23, 2006, 01:54

gaijinalways wrote Looks like you might not be saying much than ! Actually, I think sometimes people in Japan don't seem to know, or at least they don't let on that they know or think about problems that exist here. The infamous 'can't think outside the box' sentiment applies to all cultures to some extent, but it does seem more apt for some. But if people recognize something as a problem, within the culture, than ignoring it won't solve anything. Often some cultures have been pushed to recognition of a problem by another culture, though most likely the culture with the problem still needs to take action.

dangdaga wroteWhat are you implying? Your veiled comment lost me.

My implication is that for quite a few Japanese, being 'open-minded' is difficult. And something prevelant here is the 'Shoganai' factor, where things could be changed and people lack any independence to improve someone's situation unless they feel that person belongs to a group that they also belong to. Of course there are exceptions, but I sometimes get tired of trying to find them, instead what I often get are excuses. Yet, when you find Japanese people who are kind, they can be overly so, but they are a real rarity, in my opinion of course.

Yumiko33 wroteDifferece from Japan and other countries is normal. So, I have a cousin who is a vegeterian, and when he said: "I can understood peoples who can eat a little chicken..." I just said to him: "Try to live on the North Pole, maybe you will be have a chance to understand." Each country has good and bad things, so everybody try to live in country whose laws and life-system like.

Yes, differences are normal, being discriminated aganist with no laws to protect you is not. Welcome to 'gaijin' reality.

Hanneesh

Apr 23, 2006, 04:30

if a japanese person come into this forum and post a thread on why america sux, nobody betta say nothin
all i'm sayin

your avin a laugh mate. people are saying that americans abroad should pretend to be canadian too avoid descrimination because everyone hates them so much.

yukio_michael

Apr 23, 2006, 05:47

your avin a laugh mate. people are saying that americans abroad should pretend to be canadian too avoid descrimination because everyone hates them so much.The difference is that we're talking about criticisng policies mainly re-inforced by the Japanese government, that are essentially unfair and discrimenatory, and you are talking about the notion that a country for whom 70% or so disaprove of the president's job, should get lambasted even though they have absolutely no say in public policy, or moreover, the electoral process, really---

Tony Blair is no prize either, borderline communist I've heard from some Brittons... but let's talk about how much people HATE Americans...
sigh.

pipokun

Apr 23, 2006, 18:31

yukio_michael

Apr 24, 2006, 02:26

yukio_michael, thanks for your explanation.
I know the meaning and what I wanted was your interpretation.
For example, you may say Japanese women are severely discriminated when it comes to their working conditions, however, some say the rising index is due to improved women's status. There still remains lots of staying-home mom privileges, but no one knows the future.

Do women choose poor partners? Maybe (hopefully), maybe not.Thanks for the response, I wanted to mention too, that the index may be misrepresented as you say, as a result of other factors, this is what I've read from a few people who have tried to interpret it themselves---

I think there exists a great deal of income inequality in the United States, so I'm certainly not leveling sole blame on Japan. In the United States, and the United Kingdom however there is, and has been definitely a public identity given to 'the rich', whereas Japan (and to their benefit, or perhaps economic benefit) for a long time has enjoyed the idea of one single middle-class... Everyone is equal, at least in ideal. People I think are starting to recognise that this just isn't true. People still buy Louis Viuton accross classes however, whereas in most places this is seen solely as a luxury item, primarily owned by the upper classes--- (class is also a bad word in the UK/USA... but regardless), we know we can't all own it. Japan may have, and seems to have, different ideas about social status... which I think excelerated rapidly during the bubble period, where showing your 'good' taste was considered part and parcel of being inthe neuveu riche.

If labour needs dictate it, more women will be better represented in the workplace, but this as you say, doesn't void the desire in Japan for traditional roles for women at home and as the arbiter mostly of the children. Do they choose poor partners? The Japanese male hasn't exactly enjoyed a great reputation...

Pitty the Japanese male. Pushed from indulged boyhood, he fights his way through examination hell, interview high-water, commuter trains, and office politics, shouldering the weight of familial and even national expectations. Now he tands shivering in the spotlight, dirty linen and hidden warts exposed to the world. In these latter days of post-feminism, he doesn't come off well, pelted as he is with accusations of arrogance, materialism, sexual deviance, insensitivity, racism, and sexism. Of course, more than a few Japanese women have been saying this all along.

-Ginny Skord Waters on the books, The Way of the Urban Samurai (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804818177/sr=8-1/qid=1145813307/ref=sr_1_1/002-2292146-3444809?%5Fencoding=UTF8), (1992, Tengu Books) & Butterflies of the Night: Mama-sans, Geisha, Strippers, and the Japanese men they serve. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059532603X/qid=1145813348/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-2292146-3444809?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) (1992, Tuttle).

Those books may be a bit dated, but I don't think the social environment has changed too radically much from their publish dates.

gaijinalways

Apr 24, 2006, 23:31

Some Japanese people have still tried to 'push' this version of reality, of a unified middle class in Japan, but it's been obvious to me for some time that Japan doesn't have this ideal, as more people become Freeters, Neets, or hikikomori, Japan is having a hard time even holding onto the idea of a better future, regardless of the non-violent, peaceful society.

There are some here who cling to the dream, just as there are some in the US who cling to the idea of a country built on high ideals (which our president is slowly killing), and hope to live to see the reality return (I hope in my lifetime.

May both nations prosper in their search for better societies, as I wish all nations who have their people at heart to do well.

Crackpot

May 2, 2006, 18:30

Ive been back in Japan for over 1 year now after 1 year about 6 years ago and I work in a science institute with all Japanese. Recently my enjoyment of the superficial kindness, gentleness and apparent grace of my hosts has given way to growing frustration at their insincerity which I read as batant cynicism and anger at my own inability to see this earlier.
Recently a couple of incidents have caused me to blow and internal gasket.
As a scientist, debate and discussion of data is essential to correct interpretation and progress. I find myself surrounded by scientists who are "ordered" by the boss to produce a set of results to which they dutifully comply with fabricated data, (which the boss must recognize for what it is because it is so blatant ). What is more the obedient scientist then assumes the air of expert when asked a question by an "inferior" lab member - a female or younger male- with rapid confident responses that are deliberately misleading. The web of deceipt is woven thick throughout the lab but this is another issue to the point I want to highlight:
I have noticed that when somebody is in a position of temporary superiority, by that I mean they are in a position to potentially provide you with useful information, either a shop assistant or research collaborator, they will often not address your query. If you press for an answer or point out they are "maybe" (definetly!) mistaken you will be told this is rude. If I ask what time is it and you say its a sunny day that can be a nice conversation or a impediment to me making my appointment depending on the context. But my main concern in Japan is not offending the confounder his/herself but collateral damage to others i care about more.
For example my beloved girlfriend is working with a collaborator in Hokkaido with all communication by email. She was upset by not understanding this guys "cloning strategy" which was indeed a birds nest. I asked her to ask him what restriction enzyme he used (it sounds technical but a simple question to those in the lab). He send her a lengthy email which as you might expect, did not say what restriction enzyme he used. When I expressed bewilderment and suggested she ask him again she became offended at this direct attitude from me.
Is this type of mild and sever deception present in other walks of life here or is my lab an exception?

strongvoicesforward

May 2, 2006, 18:49

Gee Crackpot, what an excellent post! Honest and inciteful to the true nature of most things here. But, the Japanphile amongst us may not agree with your assessment.

Your post was so good, I think it would have better been posted as an OP in a new thread.

I see your points on everything above and you should be confident you have hit the nail on the proverbial head.

Crackpot

May 2, 2006, 22:04

I am heartened by your echo Strongvoicesforward. I was starting to wonder if I was looking for irritations, which in itself was making me tense. I am also a champion for Japan - almost a Japanophile - based on the little I know of the country so far and I think when I get a realisation that something is not what I thought it is easy to go into oversteer and blast the whole country and its people for "duping" me although of course, I invited the duping in the first place.

An old friend who lived in Japan for nearly 20 years once told me that gaijin here go through peaks and troughs in their relationship with Japan and Im starting to see what he meant.

Going back to my lovely girlfriend who I have by far the closest Japanese relationship with, and who amazes me with her longsuffering of me and unselfish serenity, I dont see many other Japanese like her and it makes me unsettled because either she is not what she seems to be and I am a terrible judge, or she is really different from all the other Japanese I have met although she grew up in a typical edokko family. So Im on heightened alert for subtle clues. Very occassionally I see something trivial she does, and with the weight of my laboratory experiences behind me, I become like Humphrey Bogarts character in the Treasure of the Sierra Madre and think -Ha, you are just like the rest of them - but of course I am wrong. One incident that tripped me off was when we met in Ginza one afternoon. Just as I approached her an old college pal appeared. They talked as I sidled up but she did not break to say hello let alone introduce me to this person. I was left trying to make eye contact with the friend who studiously avoided any, until finally with me feeling like a lemon, the friend departed and my GF turned to greet me. I was absolutely furious and confused because in other parts of the world this is utterly rude. Yet I wasnt sure if this had happened because I was a gaijin or a boyfriend or whether it was typical to do with anyone in a similar situation.

I have a few more minor incidents that struck me but maybe Ive said enough for now...:p

strongvoicesforward

May 2, 2006, 23:20

Crackpot, what can I say -- except another very inciteful and excellent post. I normally quote things that stand out but everything you say does. And besides, your observations are all right.

But, we do all have a special affinity towards our girlfriends or wife, giving them more leeway than we do others in our judgements of actions.

At the moment I am not feeling very well, so I won`t/can`t address your post in as much detail as I`d like, but I will when better. Hopefully before then, other people who have lived here for a while with their "up and down" feelings of Japan will respond to you. I am surprised no one has thus far. May have something to do with the low traffic today -- perhaps because of Golden Week.

I`lll keep checking back.

White Girl

Sep 28, 2007, 19:31

I'm going to live here for probably the rest of my life, so sure as hell I can criticise it. Is a Japanese person allowed to criticise Japan? Hell yeah. What about a permanent resident? I really don't see the difference!

Japan does not have nearly enough criticism... I think it would do the country a lot of good to get some issues out in the open! Europe and the U.S. are always criticising themselves, but I almost never hear it here. It's always "look at how wonderful Japan is, we have this wonderful custom, we're so polite...and OH SO HUMBLE. Look at us! Next up: An interview with a foreigner who talks about how wonderful we Japanese are!" in so many magazine articles and stuff. Sometimes it makes me want to gouge my eyes out :P You can't fix your problems unless you are a little more critical of yourself--you'll be in the dark forever, and you'll have a minority (not necessarily ethnic) that really suffers. I think this "never say anything critical" philosophy contributes greatly to depression and suicide, personally.

So yeeeaaah, bring on the criticism! I voted for "anything goes"!

senseiman

Sep 29, 2007, 01:40

:cool:Glad to see this poll I started 4 years ago is still getting responses!:cool:

Pachipro

Sep 29, 2007, 02:51

It will always get responses from new people who live in Japan, have lived in Japan, and have just discovered Jref. Good thread.

kireikoori

Sep 30, 2007, 09:06

Criticism of any culture is always fine. But there's a line that it goes too far and alot of people don't seem to stay within it. It's a very delicate, fine line and people should be more aware of it.

As an American alot of people seem to bash on our country. It doesn't affect me so much, I look at myself as an individual more than I look at myself as an American. Most of the time they're bashing things in America like religious fundamentalism or our President Bush or our education system.

With America the criticism doesn't seem as harsh as some of things said about Japan and it makes me uncomfortable. People can just be way cruel in what they say about Japan sometimes.

bakaKanadajin

Oct 2, 2007, 01:55

Many of the things a foreigner could criticize Japan for are, in my humble opinion, things that they only see after being there. Things that the West is criticized for are usually more politically oriented topics, things where Western policy is negatively affecting this group or that cause. Most regular people these days, lacking the level of interest, experience and familiarity the members of this board share in relation to Japan, probably don't have anything to openly criticize Japan about aside from perhaps whaling.

That being said, within this locus of activity many of the things Japan gets commonly bashed for are things we perceive ourselves to have conquered; racism, prejudice, subtle forms of social misogyny, and so on. Every industrialized culture has its downfalls however, so morally speaking its a moot point to linger on Japan's issues for very long unless we're just enjoying the dicussion as an academic endeavour. I think all cultural discussions benefit from as objective a treatment as possible in this sense, otherwise understanding is lost to hasty judgement.
I therefore voted for the middle option, since 'anything or nothing goes'-type answers imply that steps aren't being taken to be objective or sensitive.

w1ngzer0

Oct 4, 2007, 04:13

Japan Bashing, America Bashing, Mexico Bashing. It happens in all countries and all places.

Ireland is a good example of an extremity. Catholic and Protestant are at constant war with each other for no other reason then being the "right" one.

If your talking about racism; thats a completely unnessary and ignorant subject.

kireikoori

Oct 5, 2007, 00:59

subtle forms of social misogyny
Haha, that's not a big deal. Misogyny is quite blatant here in the US. However, sexism is a bad thing everywhere and not even the tiniest amount is excusable.

Skullcrushergurl

Oct 5, 2007, 01:22

It all depends on the person.
Every culture criticizes another. In Japan, the people have no problem bashing America. Just be polite about it I guess.

Uchite

Oct 12, 2007, 01:21

Polite criticism is acceptable, as long as you take into consideration cultural differences while making it and know what you are talking about.

The thing is, when many Gaijin go to Japan, they expect the way they have it at home. This is totally out of line and unrealistic. What then happens is that all Gaijin become stereotyped because of the stupidity and boorishness of a few.

Dogen Z

Oct 12, 2007, 20:26

Article from the Los Angeles Times on Japan Bashing.

http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/10/cold-copy-the-t.html

Goldiegirl

Oct 12, 2007, 21:55

I don't think the issues over China are closely related to those over Japan in the 80's. I think the BIG differences are as follows...

Japan's products are high quality and they don't use known toxic ingredients, or substandard work.

The Chinese are communists.

TuskCracker

Oct 12, 2007, 22:41

-
My thoughts (from someone who never has visited their)

-> Japanese below the age of 40-45 years, World-War II guilt, must be tiresome. Show some respect. They had nothing to do with it

-> Their are exceptions to every rule

-> Germany and Japan were "more-or-less" equal in World-War-II. Yet Japan seems to receive more war guilt. The right-wing-nationalist, and old, but proud patriot makes this worse.

- -> Japanese culture and people, are a proud nation. Respect that.

- -> Stand up to truly obnoxious items. Mine recently was old Japanese soldiers parading in "Japanese World War II" uniforms. That is out-of-line. Millions of people all over Asia saw nothing but terror and fear, seeing that uniform.

- -> Japan gave us, back in 1980-1995 the best and affordable cars ever made. They are building the best hybrid-cars/small_cars.

_.

Glenski

Oct 12, 2007, 23:21

Japan bashing, 6 pages so far.

My reply?

What's the point?

pugtm

Oct 13, 2007, 07:58

i think that because japan is so popular there are always going to be the objectionable ones that just have to put their 5 cents in. Those who actually care about japan(im worried about their decline in birth rates for example) should be able to criticize to a degree. big difference between bashing and criticism.

kireikoori

Oct 13, 2007, 09:17

-
-> Germany and Japan were "more-or-less" equal in World-War-II. Yet Japan seems to receive more war guilt. The right-wing-nationalist, and old, but proud patriot makes this worse.
Japan receives more war guilt than Germany?:giggle::giggle::giggle:

Glenski

Oct 13, 2007, 15:41

Japan receives more war guilt than Germany?This may actually be true, despite the atrocities committed by the Germans. Japan often refuses to openly admit it did anything akin to that, despite the plethora of evidence, and it has a running wishy-washy attitude towards admitting comfort women or apologizing for the Nanking massacre or the Prime Ministers' visits to the infamous Yasukuni Shrine. They try to hide things like this in their history textbooks, too.

gaijinalways

Oct 13, 2007, 22:48

Sadly enough very true. I have an 'educated' doctor on another forum who vehemently cliams he has talked to the older 'comfort' women who were only complaining about not being paid enough and a former unit 731 'doctor' who claims that only death row prisoners were forced to undergo 'death' treatments. Since someone claimed tht only 3% are the vocal types, I'm wondering how big is the LDP and their supporters (the rural voters mostly with their 4 votes each)? Seems like it would be more than 3%. Brain washed and gullible as charged. Now if we could only get the bunch that believes in WMDs in Iraq we could have a real party!

pipokun

Oct 13, 2007, 23:20

Anything goes as long as the doctor, educated or not, is here.
Another forum is another one after all.
Advertise this site, and bring him/her here.

gaijinalways

Oct 14, 2007, 22:34

He goes by the handle of 'Oscar' in the 'Young Dude's Guide to Japan' forum. That forum primarily serves as a clearing house for tips and stories for guys who chase Japanese women in Japan and elsewhere, but they do also have another section that Oscar censors as he pleases whenever he can't argue his way out of a bag, which is most of the time. I doubt he would come here, he thinks he is too liberal after he has been kicked out of some other forums (which he declined to name). More than likely his rude manners and what he thinks passes for macho behaviour got him booted.

kireikoori

Dec 8, 2007, 07:22

This may actually be true, despite the atrocities committed by the Germans. Japan often refuses to openly admit it did anything akin to that, despite the plethora of evidence, and it has a running wishy-washy attitude towards admitting comfort women or apologizing for the Nanking massacre or the Prime Ministers' visits to the infamous Yasukuni Shrine. They try to hide things like this in their history textbooks, too.
What? Whatever Japan feels about WWII I think people give Germany more war guilt/a hard time over it.

When people mention Germany what's the first thing that comes to peoples mind? The Nazis. What comes to people's mind when you mention Japan? Probably more likely the Samurai than WWII.

MadamePapillon

Dec 8, 2007, 13:09

What? Whatever Japan feels about WWII I think people give Germany more war guilt/a hard time over it.
When people mention Germany what's the first thing that comes to peoples mind? The Nazis. What comes to people's mind when you mention Japan? Probably more likely the Samurai than WWII.

I don't think that's so true anymore, I know I don't automatically think Nazi when I think Germany.
Germany has done all it can and more to erase the stigma surrounding it's wrong doing in the war, they've apologized, made memorials, basically admitted they were wrong, formally apologized and did what they could to make it right and move on.

Japan on the other hand, all these years later still can seem to swallow their pride enough to just say, "we were wrong and we're sorry". That's all anybody is asking for. To try and get around that and all these years later still try to cover it up and deny it shows not only a lack of respect towards the victims but also true cowardice on their part.

Germany did do the worst crimes, by far, and it stuck, but at least they had the good grace to suck it up and say sorry.

kireikoori

Dec 9, 2007, 02:48

I don't think that's so true anymore, I know I don't automatically think Nazi when I think Germany.
Well then I think you deviate from the average. Most people are pretty uninformed about the word around them and don't know how apologetic Germany has been and that they've even gone to the extreme of making it illegal.

Germany has done all it can and more to erase the stigma surrounding it's wrong doing in the war, they've apologized, made memorials, basically admitted they were wrong, formally apologized and did what they could to make it right and move on.

Japan on the other hand, all these years later still can seem to swallow their pride enough to just say, "we were wrong and we're sorry". That's all anybody is asking for. To try and get around that and all these years later still try to cover it up and deny it shows not only a lack of respect towards the victims but also true cowardice on their part.
Germany did do the worst crimes, by far, and it stuck, but at least they had the good grace to suck it up and say sorry.
Indeed. But all that being said, I think Germany still takes more heat for WWII. Well, outside of Asia at least.

Janny

Dec 9, 2007, 02:59

I think nobody should bash any country, since it's hard to understand it's customs/culture etcetera when you haven't been raised there. I'm not sure what to say about politics though. People that run a country may not necessarily reflect a whole population's views, so I guess criticism is okay here, as long as it's constructive.

ajmd20

Dec 9, 2007, 04:19

When people mention Germany what's the first thing that comes to peoples mind? The Nazis

Perhaps this is something particular to Arkansas or America. I would certainly be surprised if many people thought like that around here. If I asked people what was the first thing that came into their minds if I said Germany, I would expect the answers to be things like beer, efficiency, sausages or football rivalry.

MadamePapillon

Dec 9, 2007, 11:06

Perhaps this is something particular to Arkansas or America. I would certainly be surprised if many people thought like that around here. If I asked people what was the first thing that came into their minds if I said Germany, I would expect the answers to be things like beer, efficiency, sausages or football rivalry.

I think music. I'm a big fan of german metal :cool:

Indeed. But all that being said, I think Germany still takes more heat for WWII. Well, outside of Asia at least.

That's true. I think people remember it more as Hitler has become an icon of hate and fear, but I don't know if people would give Germans such a hard time anymore. I think the issue has been pretty much resolved and forgiven...but not forgotten.

On the other hand there are still countries calling for Japan to apologize and it's making the news how many years later. Japan is making it a far bigger issue than it really needed to be.

yamahaR1

Dec 21, 2007, 04:53

No criticism is valid because it is not your culture and foreigners can't understand it.

FrustratedDave

Dec 21, 2007, 13:23

Well then I think you deviate from the average. Most people are pretty uninformed about the word around them and don't know how apologetic Germany has been and that they've even gone to the extreme of making it illegal.

I think you have it backwards, when someone mentions Nazis people imediately think of Germany. But, when Germany is mentioned most people think of something else, I know I think of Oktober fest. Maybe it is you that deviates from the average?

Otenba

Jul 26, 2008, 05:11

For once, I went with the majority: point three.

Kenjirou

Jul 31, 2008, 03:38

Well, first of all, Japan was way worse than Germany in WWII, there are many many sites that tell that story and I don't want o get into a disgusting conversation here about that. However i believe that that was 60 years ago, and nations change. I believe that bashing of anyone or anything should be acceptable, I'm not talking about flaming or physical violence here, but people should know what you think about them, this may be a radical opinion of mine here, but I bash all countries equally and I don't get offended when others do the same (maybe I'm just not very patriotic.)

Emoni

Jul 31, 2008, 08:55

No criticism is valid because it is not your culture and foreigners can't understand it.

One of the most dangerous and ignorant statements you can make in regards to another culture in my comparison. Looking, observing, criticizing, and analysis of another culture and practice, and further more, making it clear that it is important to back up and explain one's actions and meaning is absolutely critical to understanding the world and other cultures. The idea that "you're not of this group, you can't understand, you never will, you are not one of us and not the same" is a prejudiced and harmful mindset.

Drew-san

Jul 31, 2008, 10:20

I completely agree with Emoni's post. Which makes this "Polite criticism is acceptable, as long as you take into consideration cultural differences while making it and know what you are talking about." the perfect option.

Emoni

Jul 31, 2008, 17:56

I mean what I say in a strictly educational focus of course. With the goal of understanding, analyzing, and ultimately benefiting both sides.

ANYONE who says "Oh, you don't understand, you aren't one of us." Is simply unable to answer the question and running away from the issue, or prejudiced. No one can understand how someone thinks and feels 100%, yes, but expressing and explaining can get you at least to 90%. Not saying or doing anything will assure it remains at 0% though.

caster51

Jul 31, 2008, 18:10

Emoni

Aug 3, 2008, 18:28

How long does it take?
it need more than 100 years.
i want to say " just read many books about that?
Or, is it an eternal mystery?
I think I call it stupid because time has already passed so much

Sorry, I didn't understand this at all. I can't respond.

caster51

Aug 3, 2008, 21:06

Sorry, I didn't understand this at all. I can't respond.

No criticism is valid because it is not your culture and foreigners can't understand it.

i think it is waste of time any further.

Emoni

Aug 4, 2008, 06:05

Caster, your behavior is EXACTLY the sort of behavior I just spoke of.

I see, so any comment, analysis, or criticism is instantly invalid because someone isn't directly from that culture. Even though you never defined that culture as social differences, historical belief, minority groups in Japan, familial belief differences, or the year your child grew up and what shows he watched as a kid defining him. Not only the argument hold a DANGEROUS amount of arrogance and apathy, it was never even defined or explained. It simply went back to "You can't understand (because the metaphorical "you" said so), therefore I will not make an effort because I have already solidified my stereotype of you as ignorant and impossible to communicate with. Furthermore it is impossible for me to understand you, so I will make no effort."

Then this is followed with, "i think it is waste of time any further."

Thus, communication ends abruptly. There is no attempt to understand, there is no attempt to communicate.

On the personal level this is how relationships that could be wonderfully fruitful are tossed aside like garbage. When there is an argument, there is nothing but anger and hate rather than debate and an effort to express one's thoughts and feeling and understand the other. On the political arena, it leads to assumptions, fear, and out right lies about the intentions of the other. On the international scale it is the last step before inevitable war.

Again, this sort of (lack of) thinking is one of the most dangerous aspects international interaction. When one side takes on this sort of immature, judgmental behavior, you end up with horrible results.

I can only thank you for one thing, showing me a perfect example of this behavior on a small scale caster51. I do hope you serious reconsider your behavior for your own sake and all those who have lost the opportunity to share and learn both from you and what they have to offer in regards to experience being given to you as well.

Kenjirou

Aug 4, 2008, 15:45

This is starting to get fairly violent... I agree the Caster is in the wrong, but do we need to tear him down? I'm not disagreeing with Emoni, but perhaps a more diplomatic approach might have worked as well... kamo

Emoni

Aug 4, 2008, 18:25

Violent? Are you serious? How on earth is making a supported case with text and one to one communication violent? This is the exact opposite of violence so I'm simply at a loss by this statement. Responding by verbal/written communication and supporting one's statements and arguments is the anti-thesis of violence!

Furthermore, you mind showing me how I'm "tearing someone down?" I'm making my point about how dangerous this sort of thinking is. If by making a very strong supported argument against an absolutely absent and unsupported one is tearing someone down and not diplomatic, then I suggest you give an example of one. Talking, speaking, showing evidence proof and supporting your case IS being diplomatic and once again, that is what you want to promote, communication, not lack there of.

You've made one strong accusation about my post claiming it is violent and tearing someone down. One that I think is very uncalled for, as well as highly inaccurate. Before you make such claims please show and support such a statement and accusation. For a start you could present my tank and mini-gun's spent ammunition to show the violence, maybe a bloody knife. For tearing him down, please at least provide a severed finger or maybe a toenail. Those are some GROSS overstatements you made.

Kenjirou

Aug 4, 2008, 20:22

Calm down man, the word violent is used figuratively here. Just saying your rather harsh. I realize that what your doing is not violence. Not trying to pick a fight with you or anything. Using bold on some of your sentences is also seen as yelling. I've made it quite clear that I agree with what you see, now I don't see why you need to start attacking me, all I'm saying is you don't need to take a guy out to prove a point. Now please respond without attacking me next time, as I am trying not to get into an argument here, which is what I think would be a really bad thing to do. Just let it go. :cool:

Emoni

Aug 5, 2008, 03:33

Wow, quiet sensitive. Sorry, but I don't flower my words. When I make a point, I make it straight and simple with the support that I need or evidence. Simple as that. I don't consider that harsh at all.

Claiming that I was violent, even figuratively, and being hard on someone for no reason without given cause is insinuating an attack more than I was. I'm not "taking a guy out" like a mob boss. If you cannot support your statement, yes, you will have the ground beneath automatically cave in. That is the fault and responsibility you have with your argument, and is not my fault.

Make a statement that is extreme and potentially dangerous to people if followed through? You better darn well back it up. I'm not going to be responding with hugs and understanding, I'm going to point out every single hole that is there.

Kenjirou

Aug 5, 2008, 05:10

Sensitive? Perhaps. However, I am just trying to be diplomatic here, no hurt feelings all around. A good diplomat will see others' weak points and gently point them in the right direction. Now I see that you like to write a great deal and do not want to offend you with my somewhat half-assed reply but I really see no future for this debate. I hope you have understood that I was only trying to reign in your fierce assault >> not that I am in any way insinuating that you are a mobster, murderer, killer of men, doer of misdoings, or any other bad things you could possibly extract from my harmless phrases. Once again I will say that I agree that you are correct in your intent to tell off Caster. Please realize that I am in full defensive speech here and am not attacking you in any way. I am not quite sure why you have been so aggressive to my previous replies but I am confident that you will see there is no need to continue this. Now I'm afraid we have strayed off the topic of Japan Bashing at this time, and so I finish my speech.

Emoni

Aug 5, 2008, 11:35

Alrighty then. Just please understand that despite trying to be diplomatic, making accusations while doing so is going to not repair any situation that you might see as a problem. Especially unfounded and unsupported ones.

caster51

Aug 5, 2008, 12:19

I think Japan bashing is something fun for the Japanese..

Being criticized has already changed into the enjoyment.

their reaction in forums are interested for me

what is the next?

Emoni

Aug 5, 2008, 17:16

I think Japan bashing is something fun for the Japanese..
Being criticized has already changed into the enjoyment.
their reaction in forums are interested for me
what is the next?

I don't see how this is a related response at all. It seems you are also not even going to try to respond to my argument/statements.

caster51

Aug 5, 2008, 21:53

I don't see how this is a related response at all. It seems you are also not even going to try to respond to my argument/statements.

there are many Japan bashing in the world.
Especially, China and the South Korea's japan bashing are interesting and entertainmet for the Japnese.
The matter of the whale in Australia was laughble recently for the Japanese..

The performance that destroyed the radio of Toshiba was the same as the
demonstration of South Korea at that thime for me.
japan bashing is always funny

Emoni

Aug 6, 2008, 06:38

there are many Japan bashing in the world.
japan bashing is always funny

I guess you didn't read my posts/understand them at all.

Furthermore, unsupported and politically motivated attacks on Japan are often based on the very nationalism that you support and promote Japan to increase. Claiming things are funny, neither answers the issues those countries put forward, nor the ones I did.

Back to square one again.

ASHIKAGA

Aug 6, 2008, 13:59

This is just a poll to see where the members stand on this particular issue, no? Looks like the majority of us feels the same way regarding this topic by looking at the result.

I think those who voted have expressed their opinions already. While I do not agree with some, that is just the way they feel. Unless there are other members who have not voted yet and would like to share their opinions, I don't think this is going anywhere. We are just trying to somehow prove others wrong. Is that what we are supposed to do here?

I voted for #3.

caster51

Aug 6, 2008, 19:56

i think every bashings to Japan are accepetable.
I need just laughing as a joke material ...

Japanese media should also bash other country more.

Emoni

Aug 7, 2008, 04:36

i think every bashings to Japan are accepetable.
I need just laughing as a joke material ...
Japanese media should also bash other country more.

... so not only are you avoiding communication on the issue which I have stated in previous posts is the stem of a great deal of dangerous understanding when it comes to nations. You are promoting the bashing of other countries by the Japanese media either as an inappropriate joke to dodge the issues, or seriously?

Well, don't worry Caster, they already do sometimes if that makes you happy. Each time they do and anger a country it hurts relations with Japan as well or worsens Japanese international relations with East Asia to an even WORSE point than they already are.

Dogen Z

Aug 8, 2008, 23:07

Many Japanese believe that the severest Japan bashing is based on more than the economic/social/etc. issues at hand. In fact, the major newspapers implied, at the height of the Japan bashing frenzy, that anti-Japanese racism was a big part of it. I think I would agree with that.

aoc gold

Aug 10, 2008, 17:56

Different places have different culture.

bluepilot

Aug 14, 2008, 23:54

I really like Japan a lot but sometimes I get a little annoyed with living in Japan.

Like when you're hungry and craving a huge tub of meat, tomatoes, and cheese all mixed in lovely gooeyness, but you know you can't have (or afford) that, then the combini is out of your favourite onigiri...and you just get a little bit upset.

Is the fact that I am annoyed at the lack of affortable cheese, meat and tomatoes to make my goo due to culture? Is my missing onigiri society's fault? Did all members of the Japanese society personally eat my favourite type of onigiri?

So I think that if you have lived in Japan then you have plently of reasons to critizise it but there are still many good things.

But I do dislike the people who critizise Japan on very little basis. Equally, I also don't like those who say that they 'love everything' about Japan on a probably even smaller basis.

caster51

Aug 16, 2008, 12:25

I remember when former president Clinton in 98 visited China without coming near to Japan. both mass media calld Japan bashing loudly...
It was not even in the problem not coming near to Japan when Bush
visited China this time.
today,Japanese news media are concealing.
The Japanese mass communication doesn't report it so much though USA has increased making Japan angry.(Japan Bashing)
It is a speculation of Bush administration that wants to make the Japanese anti-American and to push it aside in Asia

as for the Japanese Government that keeps being subordinate of toward America, it is embarrassed that a Japanese anti-American feeling becomes strong. because it is so easy....

The United States wants China to the hegemony in Asia.
Japan can do nothing but receive the situation.
The strategy of Japan has already failed though japan helped USA with bashing china..

I think the truth behind the Japan bashing is important.
"bashing America" is better for Japanese than Japan vs china

bakaKanadajin

Aug 17, 2008, 19:02

as for the Japanese Government that keeps being subordinate of toward America, it is embarrassed that a Japanese anti-American feeling becomes strong. because it is so easy....

The United States wants China to the hegemony in Asia.
Japan can do nothing but receive the situation.
The strategy of Japan has already failed though japan helped USA with bashing china..

I think the truth behind the Japan bashing is important.
"bashing America" is better for Japanese than Japan vs china

Some interesting points here. I think another of the main reasons Japan has always been so ingratiating to the US is because they still rely a lot on the US for regional defence against countries like PRK and China. Politically speaking, so long as Japan permits US military footholds in the region and allows tracking of foreigners entering the country, they'll be in America's good books regardless of public grumblings.

That being said, in America's bid to balance itself against emerging China, it does need Japan in the sense that it wants a solid ally in the Asian-Pacific, especially since they are G8 comrades as well. Overall I think Japanese-American political relations aren't really affected by any of this 'bashing' business, it's just social mud-flinging as it's always been.

epigene

Aug 20, 2008, 23:05

Posts that have shifted focus to foreigner crime have been moved to the Big Off-Topic Section.

Thank you in advance for your understanding. :relief:

gaijinalways

Aug 21, 2008, 00:01

Hardly a shift, thanx for nothing.

Megumi Kimoto

Aug 21, 2008, 21:03

On JREF, I’ve read some negative but well researched comments about the actual living standard in Japan. I thought those comments were true.
After reading them, I got depressed because, as a Japanese, there is nothing I can do to improve the situation anytime soon.
But after a couple of days I felt stronger. Exposure to truth makes a person stronger, I think.

kireikoori

Aug 27, 2008, 11:54

Sometimes I've felt compelled to say every single bad thing I've ever heard a person say about Japan at Japan related forums just so the users will accept me and not tell me I'm "delusional and need a wake-up call".

Bashing is not good. Bashing is hateful.
Constructive criticism that is done with sympathy and tolerance is okay, but outright hate is not acceptable. No matter how many Japanese Only signs there are or whatever, it doesn't make it right to become Japanophobic in return.

I do not believe in cultural relativism and saying all cultures should be equal in a person's eyes. But there's a difference between a little bit of cultural preference for your own country, or whatever, and outright intolerance.

I think a lot of things about Japan are better than the United States. And I like a lot of things about Japan better than the United States. The things I hold dear enough to me to want to live in a place are in Japan though, so I would like to live there. Or at least, stay much longer than before. I know good and well I can't convince anyone I want to stay in a country unless I've lived there several years. But believe me when I say I want to stay longer and I don't know if it may end.

You know, when I hear some people talk about Japanese as a minority oppressor the way they do, I'm reminded of black nationalists who would always distrustingly talk about white people and say that we have a conspiracy against them. It's as if I was reading the Protocols of the Elder of Zion, except directed against white people and not Jews. And I'm uncomfortable with those black nationalists, who think I'm bad just because I'm the majority of my country. You know, I consider those black nationalist racist, even though all they did was victimize themselves. It's uncomfortable, and it feels racist. And that's the way a lot of people who talk about Japan sound to me. I don't want to sound like a white version of those black nationalists.

Glenski

Aug 27, 2008, 12:31

You know, when I hear some people talk about Japanese as a minority oppressor the way they do, I'm reminded of black nationalists who would always distrustingly talk about white people and say that we have a conspiracy against them.
So, what is your take on the discrimination that goes on against foreigners in Japan? Is it not worthy of recognizing? Take a peek at www.debito.org for a glimpse of the many topics there on this issue and tell me such discrimination doesn't exist in Japan.

kireikoori

Aug 27, 2008, 13:13

Take a peek at www.debito.org for a glimpse of the many topics
You talk as if I haven't been to that site several times throughout the years.
Also, did you not see where I brought up Japanese Only signs on my previous post. Like I said, it's okay to have constructive criticism, but one much be very careful to not be racist oneself when pointing out the racism in others.

Your jumping on me only makes me feel more strongly about the way I feel on matters.

I'm happy that Debito cares about the treatment of other foreigners in Japan. And I think it's neat how he forcibly ingrained himself in by becoming a naturalized citizen himself. But I'm not sure I agree with his methods.

wheehee3

Aug 27, 2008, 13:36

I'm happy that Debito cares about the treatment of other foreigners in Japan. And I think it's neat how he forcibly ingrained himself in by becoming a naturalized citizen himself. But I'm not sure I agree with his methods.
He says he's Japanese, but seems to promote only his non-Japanese side, while antagonizing the rest of the Japanese. Seems hypocritical.

orochi

Aug 27, 2008, 13:55

He says he's Japanese, but seems to promote only his non-Japanese side, while antagonizing the rest of the Japanese. Seems hypocritical.

He is Japanese.
He promotes the rights of foreigners living in Japan having been one himself at one time.
How is that hypocritical?

wheehee3

Aug 27, 2008, 14:39

What do you mean by "Japanese". It isn't just a legal concept. It's also a cultural/racial concept.

kireikoori

Aug 27, 2008, 14:43

Well, nothing he can do to change his Haplogroup arrangement. Nationality shouldn't be a racial thing anyway. Sorry, but my American upbringing makes me think that nationality is just citizenship. It doesn't matter you're ethnicity, you can still be an "American". Even the Native Americans are immigrants from Siberia, in my mind.
But if a person wants to be Japanese and be considered Japanese, ruffling feathers isn't exactly the most Japanese thing to do.

I can agree a little bit on the cultural thing. But Arudo Debito has done a lot to try to intricate into Japanese culture as far as my knowledge of him goes. Has Arudo Debito not tried to become Japanese culturally?

orochi

Aug 27, 2008, 15:20

What do you mean by "Japanese". It isn't just a legal concept. It's also a cultural/racial concept.
Does that have anything to do with whether his actions are hypocritical or not?

pipokun

Aug 27, 2008, 22:38

Debito is a great example that you can be naturalized in Japan (no matter how loud you are).

We have many activists more than Debito, "no anthem, no flag, and no Japan" in Japan like other democratic countries, even after Chinese people paid their respect on them at the Olympic. And of course, it is totally up to your choice where to live. I don't know Debito in person, but I hope he is better than them.

And it is mysterious for me why the "NO" people do not go to "YES" countries, for no law/constitution prevents you from living your favorite countries. It is easy for Japanese people to win the green card lottery for the US, so the US is not the YES country for them.

orochi

Aug 27, 2008, 23:03

Debito is a great example that you can be naturalized in Japan (no matter how loud you are).

That's a weird thing to say. Of all people in Japan, shouldn't its citizens be the most vocal?

wheehee3

Aug 28, 2008, 00:02

Well, nothing he can do to change his Haplogroup arrangement. Nationality shouldn't be a racial thing anyway. Sorry, but my American upbringing makes me think that nationality is just citizenship. It doesn't matter you're ethnicity, you can still be an "American". Even the Native Americans are immigrants from Siberia, in my mind.
But if a person wants to be Japanese and be considered Japanese, ruffling feathers isn't exactly the most Japanese thing to do.

"American" is citizenship, but even Americans have their own racial/ethnic/cultural identities. You are European American, African-American, native-American, etc. "Japanese" is both citizenship and cultural/ethnic identity. The majority in Japan are "Japanese-Japanese".

Imagine someone who just got citizenship in the US whining how racist white/black/hispanic or whatever Americans are. Like you said "one much be very careful to not be racist oneself when pointing out the racism in others."

Glenski

Aug 28, 2008, 22:40

You talk as if I haven't been to that site several times throughout the years.
Also, did you not see where I brought up Japanese Only signs on my previous post. Like I said, it's okay to have constructive criticism, but one much be very careful to not be racist oneself when pointing out the racism in others.Yes, I saw that, but i was very confused about your next statement there:
No matter how many Japanese Only signs there are or whatever, it doesn't make it right to become Japanophobic in return.
If there are a huge number of such things, it is a pretty strong indication that the foreigners will begin to rightfully feel Japanophobic, so your point does not hold water.

Yes, one must be careful not to be racist oneself. But, just where did that stem from in your mind?

I'm happy that Debito cares about the treatment of other foreigners in Japan. And I think it's neat how he forcibly ingrained himself in by becoming a naturalized citizen himself. But I'm not sure I agree with his methods.You make it sound like he naturalized to be a stronger advocate of human rights here.

BTW, I don't always agree with what he writes or how he acts, either.

He says he's Japanese, but seems to promote only his non-Japanese side, while antagonizing the rest of the Japanese. Seems hypocritical. He says he is Japanese because that is his citizenship now. His American citizenship is no longer a part of his life, and he is obviously proud of calling himself Japanese. Just because he is in favor of helping the foreigners here doesn't make that hypocritical. If a person advocated gay rights but was not gay, is that hypocritical?

But if a person wants to be Japanese and be considered Japanese, ruffling feathers isn't exactly the most Japanese thing to do.Tell that to the Aum Shinrikyo or the Red Army. Not that such a statement is meant to compare Arudou with those creeps, but what I'm saying is, there are plenty of Japanese who are waking up to human rights, women's rights, equal rights, etc. and are being vocal about it. Are they not truly Japanese? Besides, being vocal is often one very good way to get noticed, and that is just the start in getting things changed. Squeaky wheel, you know.

Has Arudo Debito not tried to become Japanese culturally? What the heck does this have to do with anything? Plenty of foreigners eat with chopsticks and wear kimonos and sleep on futons and bow and follow certain polite manners, etc. and they have NOT taken Japanese citizenship, but do you say they are weird? Arudou is by law a Japanese citizen. Who cares (or knows) what he does culturally? Is he supposed to retain American ways? You pose a very strange question.

salyavin

Sep 2, 2008, 10:07

Debito is known to distort things in his posts and delete posts of all reasonable people. I am sorry for you if you believe everything in his site. I suggest a good starting point is to read the comments on occidentalism.org/?p=908 in the article titles Debito leading foreigners down the garden path. That will give you a little idea.

Glenski

Sep 2, 2008, 11:20

Debito is known to distort things in his posts and delete posts of all reasonable people. I am sorry for you if you believe everything in his site.Reread what I wrote above.

BTW, I don't always agree with what he writes or how he acts, either.

FrustratedDave

Sep 2, 2008, 21:03

You make it sound like he naturalized to be a stronger advocate of human rights here.

Some would argue this to be true...

Glenski

Sep 3, 2008, 07:00

And others would not, Dave. Stalemate. Go ask Debito if you don't believe his web site. I really don't care.

kireikoori

Sep 7, 2008, 02:40

will begin to rightfully feel Japanophobic.
I'm sorry, I cannot agree.
I do not believe racism is ever justified.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
If you experience racism from Japanese and it makes you racist towards them, then you're no better. You've just become a mirror image of the racism you faced.

Glenski

Sep 8, 2008, 07:00

I'm sorry, I cannot agree.
I do not believe racism is ever justified.Being Japanophobic does not mean that those foreigners are racist. You misunderstood what I wrote. "Phobic" means to dislike. If someone or some country treats you badly, you are justified in disliking them. That is, it's human nature.

Besides, Japanese are not a "race", so there is no "racism" involved, if you want to get technical about it.

How do YOU feel foreigners should feel and respond to the racist and discriminatory elements in Japan?

pipokun

Sep 8, 2008, 22:20

...
If someone or some country treats you badly, you are justified in disliking them. That is, it's human nature.

I don't know if it is just human nature or not, but once you get naturalized in Japan, you don't have to sue the ultra-racist governor Ishihara like the Korean bureaucrat did. And you will simply be promoted to the senior position like her bother.

Japan is the country where you can get a position in the public sector without being naturalized. And if you are ambitious, just get naturalized to be a higher ranked official or politician.

Crystallize

Sep 9, 2008, 05:39

Usually I think that all people around the world is the same, only the languages are a bit different, but it's not quite accurate though, I know that too.
For Japanese people the most "weird" thing I have found out is that they never say that they love each other and don't openly express their feelings, that is something I find ... well, odd ... how ever ok, I suppose sometimes it's better to say nothing than to say a lot of sh*t you don't mean anyways ...:p

Glenski

Sep 9, 2008, 06:58

Becoming naturalized is still no solution to the discrimination, pipokun. You ought to know that by now.

And, not every foreigner here (me included) even wants to naturalize.

kireikoori

Sep 11, 2008, 07:28

"Phobic" means to dislike. If someone or some country treats you badly, you are justified in disliking them.
If a person treats you badly, you are justified in disliking that person.
Not a whole country.

Besides, Japanese are not a "race", so there is no "racism" involved, if you want to get technical about it.
No race is a race. Race is a completely relative term.
I can just as easily say Asian isn't a race.

How do YOU feel foreigners should feel and respond to the racist and discriminatory elements in Japan?
Personally, I would respond as passively and humbly as possible.
But I guess that's just me.

FrustratedDave

Sep 11, 2008, 10:24

Becoming naturalized is still no solution to the discrimination, pipokun. You ought to know that by now.

And, not every foreigner here (me included) even wants to naturalize.
It would solve 99% of most foriengers problems IMO.

And if you really believed that naturalizing would not help then you would not need to say what you said in your last statement. It sounds like you are saying "Even if naturalizing did solve your problems, some of us don't want to naturalize anyway... " . Not naturalizing is is "YOUR" choice and no one elses, so don't you think that those who do choose to not naturalize should show a little bit more empathy towards what Japan decides for it country?

Taiko666

Sep 11, 2008, 13:36

It would solve 99% of most foriengers problems IMO.
And if you really believed that naturalizing would not help then you would not need to say what you said in your last statement. It sounds like you are saying "Even if naturalizing did solve your problems, some of us don't want to naturalize anyway... " . Not naturalizing is is "YOUR" choice and no one elses, so don't you think that those who do choose to not naturalize should show a little bit more empathy towards what Japan decides for it country?

Obviously naturalization helps when it comes to legal or procedural issues. But I don't see how it would alleviate any of the 'standard gaijin gripes'. The many new Japanese you meet every day will still judge you by your 'non-Japanese' looks.

And it's not exactly true that naturalizing or not is completely the choice of the foreigner. Japan makes it damn hard to naturalize. I'm sure there are many people who would naturalize if they could.

Glenski

Sep 11, 2008, 17:00

If a person treats you badly, you are justified in disliking that person.
Not a whole country.And if it's the government that treats you badly, or a lot of shopkeepers...? Increases the numbers, doesn't it?

No race is a race. Race is a completely relative term.
I can just as easily say Asian isn't a race.Again, if you want to get technical...

Personally, I would respond as passively and humbly as possible.
But I guess that's just me.I guess so. But in some ways, passive doesn't cut it. How else are things going to change unless something active is done?

Not naturalizing is is "YOUR" choice and no one elses, so don't you think that those who do choose to not naturalize should show a little bit more empathy towards what Japan decides for it country? It's my choice. It's every individual's choice. We agree on that.

More empathy towards Japan? Case by case. How do you think Arudou feels despite naturalizing?

FrustratedDave

Sep 11, 2008, 18:34

Obviously naturalization helps when it comes to legal or procedural issues. But I don't see how it would alleviate any of the 'standard gaijin gripes'. The many new Japanese you meet every day will still judge you by your 'non-Japanese' looks.
And it's not exactly true that naturalizing or not is completely the choice of the foreigner. Japan makes it damn hard to naturalize. I'm sure there are many people who would naturalize if they could.
I know I am going to get flamed again for saying this, but your level of Japanese plays a huge part in how you are ultimately treated. And if you were to be near native level in speaking it would only take you 2 seconds to say to someone that you have naturalized and that would be the end of it.

Naturalizing in most advanced countries is hard these days, Japan is no exception, so until you earn the right I think that you should roll with the punches.

More empathy towards Japan? Case by case. How do you think Arudou feels despite naturalizing?
From what I understand he has brought most of the crap he gets on himself, so I think you have a "exception" with him. I was reading up on the onsen incident and the owner was letting in foriegners at the time he refused Dave, apparently there was some trouble and that is why he was refused. The sign was there so that the owner could enforce it if need be. I don't know how true this information is , but I have come accross it several times now.

Iron Chef

Sep 12, 2008, 00:04

Interesting discussion. I will chime in with my 2 yen lol as irrelevant as it may be.

1) I have been to the now infamous onsen Debito cited on two different occasions both BEFORE the whole stink was raised while I was living in Sapporo at the time (mid 90s) and I was (as far as I can recall) treated no different than any other nor was I turned away. I used to frequent Yubari, Otaru, that whole area quite frequently back in the day and by chance:

2) I have also met Debito in person quite by accident (around the same time, '97 I think actually) and he struck me as well... yeah, one of those guys who immediately finds the faults and negatives in anything and everything. You know the type, the ones who like to moan and complain about every percieved slight/inconvenience against them. I don't remember much else about what was said beyond introductions, just a first impression really so maybe my depiction of him now in hindsight is not an accurate one, dunno. I give him credit though for taking up this whole issue (and everything related to it) as his own personal crusade but personally I could care less and am not the type to take up the banner.

Glenski

Sep 12, 2008, 08:14

I know I am going to get flamed again for saying this, but your level of Japanese plays a huge part in how you are ultimately treated.No arguments there, as long as you agree that language is not the only part.

And if you were to be near native level in speaking it would only take you 2 seconds to say to someone that you have naturalized and that would be the end of it. I don't know Arudou's level of Japanese, but I was under the impression it was very good. He said he was naturalized, yet was denied entry to the onsen.

Naturalizing in most advanced countries is hard these days, Japan is no exception, so until you earn the right I think that you should roll with the punches.Why should foreigners roll with discrimination punches? Especially those who have earned their PR?

From what I understand he has brought most of the crap he gets on himself, so I think you have a "exception" with him. I was reading up on the onsen incident and the owner was letting in foriegners at the time he refused Dave, apparently there was some trouble and that is why he was refused.Russians were causing problems, so the owner decided to carte blanche ban all foreigners. Problem is, Arudou was not admitted despite being a naturalized citizen. I believe the reason was that the owner said other customers wouldn't know that just by looking at him.

The sign was there so that the owner could enforce it if need be. I don't know how true this information is , but I have come accross it several times now.The sign was later taken down due to the court case, as I recall, so it shows how improper and illegal it was.

Remember, too, that he was not the only plaintiff. Two other foreigners were with him in that court case.

FrustratedDave

Sep 12, 2008, 09:24

No arguments there, as long as you agree that language is not the only part. We are in agreement here, but remember it is the biggest part.

I don't know Arudou's level of Japanese, but I was under the impression it was very good. He said he was naturalized, yet was denied entry to the onsen. My first impression when I heard the tapes the other day on the ID incedent was that he has a very big "namari", it also seemed like he speaking as if he was literally translating English in his head first and then speaking. What I mean by that is that it was not was not what I Japanese would say in some places through out the tape. Just my opinion, maybe a native could make a comment?

Why should foreigners roll with discrimination punches? Especially those who have earned their PR? When I say roll with the punches, I am meaning follow the laws that other foriegners have to follow too. I know there are a few things I would like changed for PR people but I am not going to get upset about it if they don't change.

Russians were causing problems, so the owner decided to carte blanche ban all foreigners. Problem is, Arudou was not admitted despite being a naturalized citizen. I believe the reason was that the owner said other customers wouldn't know that just by looking at him. I know the Russian Saliors were the ones who originaly cause most of the problems and that is why the sign was put up. However, the owner was letting in other foriegners at the time Dave was not admitted and from what I have read Dave was intentionaly going there to start trouble and the owner knew it so he refused entry to him. So no he was not banning all foriengers that passed through the doors. And Iron Chef actually just said the same thing as to what I have read about the place b/c he was let in .

The sign was later taken down due to the court case, as I recall, so it shows how improper and illegal it was.

Remember, too, that he was not the only plaintiff. Two other foreigners were with him in that court case. Yes , but you don't know the circumstances that they were refused. Eg, A guy of different race starts causing trouble in a restaurant and is then kicked out for the sake of the other patrons. At the time he was the only person of that race being kicked out so he decides to sue and cry racial discrimination. Every one knows that once those two words come out everything else is not taken into accout and the fact that he was causeing trouble rarely hoolds water b/c it is a case of "he said she said". I think we need to look at the situation more objectively or find out really what happened and as to why they were refused.

Iron Chef

Sep 12, 2008, 13:59

From what I remember hearing from friends at the time living in Otaru was that some of the Russian sailors liked to sneak their alcohol with them into that particular onsen and drink while soaking which I suppose is frowned upon. Naturally, after a while the noise levels would become quite boisterous and other patrons would complain to the proprietor. At least I think that was the impetus for them putting up the sign in the first place.

GodEmperorLeto

Sep 16, 2008, 18:33

I've been avoiding this thread, especially since I moved to Korea. I have no stomach for Japan bashing anymore. You want to hear Japan bashing? Come here, to Korea. Meet some Koreans. Mention Japan... even in passing. You'll hear Japan bashing until you are physically sick.

I almost got into a fight just for practicing Japanese with a Korean Japanese major at Pukyoung University in Busan. Some Korean guys heard me speaking Japanese to her and just went ballistic, on both of us. What saved us was one of my friends speaks Russian fluently and managed to scare them (all Russian guys here are supposedly mobsters).

I've heard Americans and Canadians complain about Japan. But nothing compares to the venom, vitriol and downright vindictiveness the Koreans harbor for the Japanese. I mean, yeah, maybe they have a reason to be so ticked off, but the line should be drawn somewhere. The behavior is actually making me more and more sympathetic toward Japan as a result, rather than convincing me of their "evil ways."

bammbamm&pebbles

Sep 18, 2008, 00:21

I've been avoiding this thread, especially since I moved to Korea. I have no stomach for Japan bashing anymore. You want to hear Japan bashing ? Come here, to Korea. Meet some Koreans. Mention Japan... even in passing. You'll hear Japan bashing until you are physically sick.

I've heard Americans and Canadians complain about Japan. But nothing compares to the venom, vitriol and downright vindictiveness the Koreans harbor for the Japanese.

Thanks for sharing your insights,a dose of reality on typical S Koreans' feelings have of Japan & Japanese.

Only a handful of trollish North America's Korean and Japan's zainichi Korean netizens ( some aren't really Koreans,just pretend to be one ) desire closeness between two peoples.They absolutely don't speak for those living in Koreas.

ASHIKAGA

Sep 18, 2008, 08:04

Yeah... trolling/flaming seems to be a problem everywhere. :blush:

GodEmperorLeto

Sep 19, 2008, 16:13

Thanks for sharing your insights,a dose of reality on typical S Koreans' feelings have of Japan & Japanese.
Not sure if you are being sarcastic. But I'll admit, my post is pretty harsh-sounding. Nevertheless, my point is that most all Koreans are raised to hate Japan. Their government, teachers, and elders all ingrain them with this anti-Japanese sentiment. Any Koreans who like Japanese and Japan generally keep it to themselves unless they are with foreigners. From my experience, Koreans who major in Japanese are often somewhat insular.

Koreans don't have otaku like Japan. As homogeneous as Japan is, Korea is moreso. So the ostracism for being a Japanophile is pretty harsh if you are found out. It's almost like you are considered a traitor.

I'll admit, Japan did some pretty messed-up things during the Second World War. But that doesn't warrant the continued hate and vitriol that mainstream Korean society keeps simmering just beneath the surface. In addition, the political jockeying over Dok-Do/Takeshima just throws gas on the flames.

Not all Koreans have this hate here. But those who don't are bucking a system in a society where doing so leads to very negative social stigmas.

bammbamm&pebbles

Sep 21, 2008, 10:00

Any Koreans who like Japanese and Japan generally keep it to themselves unless they are with foreigners

So the ostracism for being a Japanophile is pretty harsh if you are found out. It's almost like you are considered a traitor.Not all Koreans have this hate here.But those who don't are bucking a system in a society where doing so leads to very negative social stigmas.

Outdated notion ... :wave:

Popular Johnny’s idol Tomohisa Yamashita, 23, was mobbed by fans at Kimpo Airport in South Korea on April 6 when he was in the departure terminal.

When some local fans found him, they grabbed his hair and clothes. There were about 1,000 fans and local media waiting at the airport.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/entertainment/view/johnnys-idol-tomohisa-yamashita-mobbed-by-fans-in-korea

kireikoori

Sep 22, 2008, 03:23

I can't say for living in Korea, but I used to frequent antijapan.com a lot. One of the first and foremost hate sites in Korea. But in no way would I assume they are the majority.

And Japanese pop culture seems to be spread throughout Asia. A lot of Japanese pop artists will come to Asian countries like Korea before they'll ever come to the United States or Europe.

And my Chinese friend told me that relations between Japan and Korea and better than those between Japan and China.

I know Korea has it's hate, but surely it can't be that extreme.

Ahega

Sep 28, 2008, 21:03

It's pretty sad to see this hatred from both sides. There is an amount of Koreans hating Japan and vice versa. Of course one can't get rid or try to avoid any prejudice but not even trying to get to know the individual behind a picture you've in mind is actually a big problem. Though it is indeed the most convenient way to just accept what is told and assumed by the majority.

Also as a foreigner I think that to some extend it's up to your own personality to feel discriminated or not. I'm not defending or blaming anyone with that, that's just one thing I concluded for myself. Though as I said there is a border,which I'd define as pretty vague at times, for things that can be tolerated or not.

grapefruit

Sep 29, 2008, 14:36

Though it is indeed the most convenient way to just accept what is told and assumed by the majority.

I concur with that. It is the most convenient and safe way to live. It could be a very dangerous thing to stand against a large patriotic crowd. Didn't we have a Chinese student in Duke who attempted to mediate between the pro-Tibetan group and the pro-Chinese group before the Olympic games, and later her family in China was attacked by a crazy crowd of pro-Chinese people?

SpikeDaCruz

Oct 1, 2008, 18:17

"A minor amount of criticism is acceptable, so long as it doesn't offend anyone."

GodEmperorLeto

Oct 1, 2008, 20:17

Outdated notion ... :wave:
Popular Johnny’s idol Tomohisa Yamashita, 23, was mobbed by fans at Kimpo Airport in South Korea on April 6 when he was in the departure terminal.
When some local fans found him, they grabbed his hair and clothes. There were about 1,000 fans and local media waiting at the airport.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/entertainment/view/johnnys-idol-tomohisa-yamashita-mobbed-by-fans-in-korea
Ace, I'm here. I see it and hear it every day. And yes, they do. Idols and celebrities are, always are, and have always been, exceptions to rules like this. You don't see these kids with Japanese stuff get yelled at like I do, and not just by elders, but by other kids their age. Certain Japanese things can fly under the radar, like that Sgt. Frog show, or Pokemon, but talk about anything more substantially Japanese, and you get the sick eye.

It's not that they are the majority. It's that their viewpoint is acceptable. It's in line with culture and society. Plenty of people here don't hate Japan. But they don't talk about that because plenty others do, and loudly, and make it known.

Also as a foreigner I think that to some extend it's up to your own personality to feel discriminated or not.
This is true. Although sometimes you can't avoid the fact that something is simply flat-out discrimination, period. However, you can choose to get mad and offended, or simply to walk away.

Over time, though, it gets to you. Whether you like it or not.

bammbamm&pebbles

Oct 1, 2008, 21:29

My source told me,S Korea's Hannara Party has pro-Japan element and they have been nurturing ' chummy ' relations between Japanese & S Korea in recent years and an agenda regards Mongolia a ' brotherly ' nation.

kusojiji

Oct 2, 2008, 01:14

Japan can take solace in the fact that Koreans don't particularly like anyone except Koreans.

bammbamm&pebbles

Oct 2, 2008, 04:15

If you're referring to Korean Jref members,many have been immediately banned for ' outward Japan bashing ' on this forum.

Uncle Frank

Oct 2, 2008, 05:02

can get banned. We have had hate filled members rant against Americans, Koreans, Japanese, and other groups; they all get banned. We try to keep JREF family friendly. Swearing, personal attacks(flaming), hateful rants, dirty or gore filled photos, spam, promoting personal agendas,fanatically religious posts are all frowned upon. Even members who try to hide their strong prejudices( but don't hide it well enough) can be voted off the island. We work hard to avoid censorship of posts and threads here on JREF and often hold discussions and votes on posts that push the limits of good taste. Just my 2 cents worth, can't speak for others.

Uncle Frank

:souka:

bammbamm&pebbles

Oct 2, 2008, 06:58

Since this website's inception in 2004,no more than one S Korean was here to expressed strong interest in Japanese culture or studied Japanese language or participated in discussion of Japanese pop entertainment.Clearly,they only come with personal agenda,either seek some sort of ' superficial ' ties to Japanese people or bash Japan.

The list is long for ' Japanophile ' SE Asians and Chinese,most proven to have concrete desire to learn the Japanese language & about Japan.

GodEmperorLeto

Oct 2, 2008, 15:38

If you're referring to Korean Jref members,many have been immediately banned for ' outward Japan bashing ' on this forum.
Nope. Not referring to them. More-or-less referring to the tons of people I run into here who have a lot of anger and resentment for Japan. Granted, to some extent it's justified, historically speaking. But it gets wearisome. A lot of it, however, is limited to current politics and the entire Dok-do/Takeshima affair (which just blows my mind with how stupid it is). But if you get them going, they'll tell you every evil thing Japan ever did to them. To which, my typical response is, "Well, they outlawed slavery in Korea!" which often gets a rather dubious response.

Since this website's inception in 2004,no more than one S Korean was here to expressed strong interest in Japanese culture or studied Japanese language or participated in discussion of Japanese pop entertainment.Clearly,they only come with personal agenda,either seek some sort of ' superficial ' ties to Japanese people or bash Japan.
Wait, doesn't this kind of prove my point?

Regardless, I'm not here to bash Korea or Japan. I'm just trying to comment that, man, it's sometimes really bothersome to hear all of this negativity toward Japan on the forums and in threads like this when I get to see slogans on T-Shirts, anti-Japanese news stories on TV, and so on.

bammbamm&pebbles

Oct 2, 2008, 15:46

My 2 previous posts regarding Korean Jref members were not in response to you,just random comments.

On the contrary,anti-Japan sentiment is very low in Taiwan.Some local TV programs often ' benchmark ' Japan for many things.

Ahega

Oct 2, 2008, 16:30

I don't get why the history of a country is always used as an excuse to bash the people of the country. Those events are often generations away and you get blamed for something you've not done. Of course no one should neither forget what happened in the past nor glorify it (or the other way around).
So is it with the Japanese and their colonial history and I know it too from the doings of Germany in WWII. I think the historical distance should be great enough by now to understand what happened and why things developed in such a way.In the end no one wants to be blamed for something the ancestors did. But as I said, it's a good excuse, isn't it?

MatsuyamaHime

Oct 2, 2008, 18:30

Living in Korea, I enjoy the satisfaction of saying "Japan!" and hearing their groans when my students ask me which do I like best, Korea or Japan, while their lovingly, detailed "Dok-do belongs to Korea!~" posters adorn the rear wall....

And, well, calling a naturalized citizen a foreigner seems all too backward. What's the point of naturalization if you aren't a citizen? I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but just... get real.

GodEmperorLeto

Oct 2, 2008, 18:58

I don't get why the history of a country is always used as an excuse to bash the people of the country.
Well, America's recent history (read, post-World War II) has been fuel for plenty of America-bashing throughout the world. But that's kind of off-topic.

A lot of individuals are still alive here in Korea whose lives were ruined by the Japanese. Now, I could just sit back and say, "Whatever, get on with your life," but plenty of bleeding hearts (especially Anglophones) get pretty up-in-arms when I say that. "You weren't there, you don't know what it's like. You didn't see your family killed. You didn't experience it." Whatever, I didn't, fine, but holding onto the past like that is patently not healthy, regardless of any justification/rationalization, etc.

Living in Korea, I enjoy the satisfaction of saying "Japan!" and hearing their groans when my students ask me which do I like best, Korea or Japan
I haven't lived in Japan, but I always get asked if I like living in Korea. I usually respond, "when Koreans aren't being racist, yes." But that's only on Bad Days. There are Bad Days and Good Days, and most often, I have a Good Day (6 out of 7 are good at least).

As an historian, I can understand the different historical forces that have made them the way that they are. Yes, I work in generalizations. That's because I am an historian. And generally, I find the Koreans far more jingoist and nationalist, but that is because, as I've said, they are a dog that's been kicked one time too many. They've had little impact on the world. They're small, they've always been small, and they know it. It's a big blow to their national pride, so they cover it up and try to compensate. Japan is an ideal target, historically speaking, for their anger. They can use Japan to funnel a lot of their own insecurities as a people and culture. That's why they are acting like a screaming infant over Dok-do/Takeshima--they need a victory here, because it will represent vindication after all of the time they've spent as a Japanese vassal. They take their insecurities and funnel them against Americans, too, because we represent yet another foreign power that rules them as a client state, so Japan isn't alone in that regard.

This isn't to say it is or is not justified--it just is. This is partially why I think it is. Korean individuals run the gamut, just like any other culture or people. But, regardless, I see these trends playing out in individuals and having a definite impact on them and their worldviews.

Ukonkivi

Nov 13, 2008, 21:22

Intolerance is intolerance.
And why would anyone be here at Jref if they don't like Japan.:okashii:

As for the Korea Japan thing, apparently there are enough tolerant people in Japan to build that "EnjoyKorea" site. I would assume there are enough people in Korea to return the favor. Right? I dunno, maybe I need to go to Korea to find out.

japanat

Apr 20, 2009, 08:02

In entertainment, Japan has been in love with all things Korean since the Kdrama "Winter Sonata" showed here a few years ago. There are tours of middle-aged ladies to see the places it was filmed, the lead actor's homes and even their offices. Several Korean pop boybands are quite popular with teen-aged girls.

When I went to Pusan, Korea back in '92, several men tried to give me a job on the spot when they found out I was teaching in Japan. "And we'll double your salary over what the Japanese pay you!" Another older man spit on me (although that is likely to be anti-American sentiment, there had been riots a few days previously).

I've been in Japan since '90, and I'd have to say Debito's situation in Otaru was a bit different, though. His wife and one daughter, who appears ethnically Japanese, were allowed into the hot spring. He and his other daughter, who appears caucasion were denied. And laws had finally just been passed which made such discrimination illegal. This was all over the news at the time, too.

Now, I'm not particularly fond of the guy, I think he carries a huge chip on his shoulder, but I signed petitions for him. How would you like to be a father whose child is denied entry because she looks too much like you? I can handle being denied entry into certain places: I may not like it, but I'll just take my business elsewhere, or call the cops if they really piss me off. But this was his kid... But I live in Kansai, where things are very different. I keep having to keep my kids heads on their shoulders, because they are quite popular as 'half's.