Muramasa/Masamune Japanese swords

[tetsunihon]

Konnichi wa, I had checked out this book on "Secrets of the Samurai" and found a lot of good information on almost every Samurai in Japanese history. I also found a small stroy about the blacksmiths Muramasa and Masamune. they were blacksmiths who created the toughest and sharpest steel. But one of them was considered evil along with his sword. How true is this story?:bow:

does anybody know or heard of Masamune and Muramasa?

[KaterinaH]

Hello, there.

I have some information for you regarding Muramasa.

The sword of Muramasa is considered evil among family of Tokugawa, who ruled Japan during Edo period. According to the history, it was said that first general (seii taishogun) Ieyasu Tokugawa's father was assacinated by the Muramasa sword. Also Ieyasu's eldest son, Nobuyasu, killed himself by doing hara-kiri with the Muramasa Sword. Therefore, the Tokugawa family extremely detested Murasame Sword believeing it would bring bad fortune to them and the idea became universal through the country.

This is how much I know about it right now. If I happen to get more information on this, I will post them again here for you.

Hope it will answer some of your questions.

[tetsunihon]

wow, so it is true, so it is also tru that the, correct me if I'm wrong, blacksmiths guild in Japan, did wipe out there recognition for making high quality swords due to the fact that those inccidents happeb in the Tokugawa family? So general, based on what the book described not many people would know to much about there craftsmenship there after.

It also mentioned that Masamune, Muramasa's teacher, tempered swords of pure steel in a way to be considered a master, I wonder if its possible to discover his secrets if Masamune's craftsmenship created extremly sharp swords.

[Mandylion]

From what I have read, the trouble in copying Masamune was in getting the hamon (wavy looking thing on the blade after it is heat tempered) and how he managed to achieve very high temperatures in his forges.

It is really quite simply to create a very sharp sword. You really couldn't use it for anything but cutting strips of paper to impress the ladies as the edge would be too brittle to take any battle punishment. I think what people get really excited about with Masamune is the looks and the talent he had in his refined smithing process (and all the legend stuff).

"wow, so it is true, so it is also tru that the, correct me if I'm wrong, blacksmiths guild in Japan, did wipe out there recognition for making high quality swords due to the fact that those inccidents happeb in the Tokugawa family? So general, based on what the book described not many people would know to much about there craftsmenship there after."

I don't get this. Could you please reword it so I know exactly what you are after here? Thanks :)

Just because it is worth repeating, let's not forget that Japanese swords were nothing more than hunks of iron shaped in various ways. They had no special powers, were no better than the hand that held them, and were no better nor worse that swords made in Europe etc. Sorry for the soap-boxing, but Japanese swords often suffer from grave misconceptions.

[TheNewBeeFCaKe]

From what i have read, Masamune's swords were art swords but they were also able to be used in combat. What made his swords Unique, besides the artwork on the sowrds crafted, were that they were tempered in a way that made them Extreemly sharp but not brittle at all and when they were held they was almost weightless. To this day no one that I ever heard of can recreate the process of which the swords were made, the secret may be lost to time. Although I would love to get my hands on one, today masamune's are priceless as they were back then. Theres a nice site I found on one of the masamunes if you wanna check it out.

[TheNewBeeFCaKe]

sorry for the doubble post. forgot the link.

http://artsword.esmartweb.com/

[NinjaEmperor]

Well I know that Muramasa's blades were amongs the finest in Japan, but the most interesting thing is that I know about Muramasa sword from the ninja game Tenchu: Wreath of Heaven and in there Muramasa is a magic sword that allows you to kill the undead and zombies, it is constantly drains your health though, but no more then one point and it adds a health to you anytime you kill the undead or zombie and it is also glows with blue light. Funy thing it is how they used a real sword in the game! Say, anybody knows whether Izayo or Fugaki swords are real? Domo Arigato!

[Mandylion]

Originally posted by TheNewBeeFCaKe
What made his swords Unique, besides the artwork on the sowrds crafted, were that they were tempered in a way that made them Extreemly sharp but not brittle at all and when they were held they was almost weightless.

Thanks for the nice link :)

Just a few thoughts; Basically you have it right. We should be careful about what brittle means though. Any super-hard, sharp edge is going to be brittle. Part of Masamune's artistry was the brillance (shine) he was able to get on his swords. This was done by tempering the blade at very high temps. However, if you heat a blade up, stress builds up in the metal that causes it to become brittle (the entire sword, not just the edge). Masamune was able to develop steps in his manufacturing process that would relieve the stresses and give a stronger sword with a more brilliant shine to it than other smiths of his day. They were lighter probably because many of his surviving blades have a distinct taper (blade gets narrower) the length of the blade (so I have read). Weightless is a bit much.

However, no super-hardened, sharp edge can be made less brittle. The edge is usually the hardest part of the sword (different temperings (hardness for the edge and back give it strengh). It needs to be so to be sharp for a long period of time. You are correct when you say Masamune's swords were not brittle (as in the entire sword). Otherwise he would not be a good swordsmith. But I too was correct in saying a super-sharp sword of the kind we hear of in legends (cutting leaves drifting down streams / cutting silk scarves falling through the air) would not be able to last in battle.

Were Masamune's swords sharp? Sure. It is safe to assume they were. Were they sharper than what most other smiths could make? I'll even give you that one too. But we have to give Masamune more credit as a smith in that he would probably not go around making his blade with edges so brittle they would chip out at the slightest provocation. I don't know if they were ever used in battle, but if they were as highly prized then as now, why risk damaging one?

Just for fun, say the great art museums of the world had a paintball game (since paintball was mentioned on another thread). Each director of each museum could choose one painting to act as a shield, but they could also wack at other directors with it if they felt like it. Chances are really good in the hurrly-burrly paintings will get splattered, torn, or in some way damaged or destroyed. The directors want to choose a painting that shows off a little, but should they be running around bashing people with their Van Gogh and Monet? Why not choose something less rare, but still impressive (say an Ansel Adams)? If you are a high-ranking general or shogun, I imagine the same would go for your swords.

[Zero-sen]

:"let's not forget that Japanese swords were nothing more than hunks of iron shaped in various ways. They had no special powers, were no better than the hand that held them, and were no better nor worse that swords made in Europe etc. Sorry for the soap-boxing, but Japanese swords often suffer from grave misconceptions"

I am sorry but i have to disagree. The Katana was far supoerior to the "crusader blades" or european edged weapons in their primary use and construction. Folded steel is far stronger and resilient than pressed or hammered steel. The katana was designed as both offensive and defensive weapon. I have used both types of swords and attempting to block with the side of a western blade and it'll bent right over on you, Try the same with the Japanese Katana and you can rest assured you won't have to discard your sword. I'm no expert on western edged weapons or Japanese edged weapons, but i did study (against my own will) the crusades and the english civil war, but didn't western swords need a dagger or something to block and parry with? A Japanese blade needed no such backup weapon it's prety fearsome on it's own. Also as for the cutting aspect Japanese swords were/are superrior. I belive Stephen Turnbull the Japanese historian commisioned a study into this too.

Curved weapns are far more efficient at this job than straight edged weapons, especially for cavalary. Mainly due to curves moving more efficiently in an arc than a straight line. Imagine charging someone with your nice spanish steel blade and smacking the guy (who is also wearing a helmet) square in the face and wheeling round to find.....he's still standing. Fair enough if the sword was extremely sharp you may have cut or even damaged the helmet. Try the same on the same guy with a Katana and you can guarantee the guy's head'll split like a melon. I have quite a bit of Tameshigiri experience and i have tried this with both my own katana ( the tiger by Paul Chen ), and with the Hanwei forge western blades. Whilst they are in no way near the quality of the older blades (This is in no way to disrespect Mr Chen, his blades are excellent), This does give a real sense of what you're up against.

With regards to the skill of the weilder, yes i will agree with you there, if the swordsman using the blade is a complete amateur then he will get cut to pieces regardless of how good his sword is.

On bamboo the Straight weapons would get lodged and would require alot of brute strenght to remove, the Katana does not, if it gets lodged a slight tug and a twist of the torso will free the Katana quite easily.
Yes i will admit i do have a bias towards the Japanese weapons but in a stabbing role the two weapons are just about equal. This is just my two cents.:note: :bow:

[Mandylion]

You've got some good points here. I would like to take a stab at responding. By the way, are you aware of www.swordforum.com If you like this stuff you should check it out, if you haven't already.

Originally posted by Zero-sen
:The Katana was far supoerior to the "crusader blades" or european edged weapons in their primary use and construction. Folded steel is far stronger and resilient than pressed or hammered steel.

Folded steel can be stronger, but Europeans used a variety of construction methods which also yeilded very stong, flexible blades too (including folding). Also, both the ages of the knight and samurai spanned hundreds of years. Unless we limit our conversation to a specific time period, doing the euro vs. jpn thing is like the apples and oranges thing. For example, Vikings could fold and weld in patterns that could be more complex than a Japanese sword. Perhaps the swords of the Crusades were sub-par (I'm not familiar with that period) in the metallurgical sense.

Folding steel does not by itself make a strong blade. Folding helps to even out the carbon distribution in the metal and work out the impurities of a low grade material (Japanese smiths used iron sand for a period before imports from abroad became available) and make a stronger blade that way. Folding steel of already high quality won't make it much stronger, and in fact introduces the chance for messing it up and making it weaker. If you have something of high quality already, you will get a strong blade without fancy folding, cores of soft steel and springy outer skins.

Blade strength will come down to the skill of the smith and the materials at hand. Both cultures made plenty of ho-hum swords, folded and not.

Originally posted by Zero-sen
:The katana was designed as both offensive and defensive weapon. I have used both types of swords and attempting to block with the side of a western blade and it'll bent right over on you, Try the same with the Japanese Katana and you can rest assured you won't have to discard your sword.

What kind of sword were you using and what did you hit it with? If you smack a thin rapier (think three musketeers) on the flat with a kataka, darn right it might bend! Simple physics. Thick sword hits thinner sword on thinnest face - thin sword bends. If you tried the same thing on something like a longsword or a claymore you will get a different result. I have heard stories of well made katanas bending while cutting tatami because of a twisting of the blade on the part of the user. Steel is steel and all of it will bend under the right conditions. Folded or unfolded, Japanese or european really doesn't have much to do with it.

Eurpoean swords were used defensively and offensively as well, but they also had armour, shields, off-hand weapons to deal with or rely on as well(depending on the time period).

Originally posted by Zero-sen
:I'm no expert on western edged weapons or Japanese edged weapons, but didn't western swords need a dagger or something to block and parry with? A Japanese blade needed no such backup weapon it's prety fearsome on it's own.

Different strokes for different periods. The weapons you are thinking of are called off-hand weapons and were used for blocking and perhaps attack. These made an appearence mainly with the rapier (again think musketeers) and at fairly advanced stage of european weaponry (around the Renaissance I think? Books not handly...please correct me). Back when knights were still in plate armor and such, sword techniques usually called for the ability to use both hands (half-swording etc). With the rapier and main-gauche [sic?] combatants were lightly armored, if at all, and so could not count on a suit of armor to absorb or deflect blows.

As armor and fighting styles developed in Europe, weapons and their uses changed too. The Japanese seemed to find something they liked and stuck with it, preferring variations on a theme. This dymanics in European tactics does not denote inferiority, nor does the static nature of the Japanese sword say they had the best sword ever. Both places faced different situations and developed accordingly).

Originally posted by Zero-sen
:Also as for the cutting aspect Japanese swords were/are superrior. I belive Stephen Turnbull the Japanese historian commisioned a study into this too.

Curved weapns are far more efficient at this job than straight edged weapons, especially for cavalary. Mainly due to curves moving more efficiently in an arc than a straight line.

Yes the Japanese katana, or any curved weapon, work very well on horseback and your geometry is correct. Indeed on an unarmored target the Japanese blade will probably cut better. This is not to say European swords were not as sharp or couldn't deliver a nasty cut. Forensic archeology has pointed this out. I would choose to run my bare hand along neither a katana nor a long sword, that you very much :) There were also European blades designed to maximize the cut - broadsword, backswords, falchions etc. Plus, a sword does not have to be razor sharp to kill someone.

Originally posted by Zero-sen
:Imagine charging someone with your nice spanish steel blade and smacking the guy (who is also wearing a helmet) square in the face and wheeling round to find.....he's still standing. Fair enough if the sword was extremely sharp you may have cut or even damaged the helmet. Try the same on the same guy with a Katana and you can guarantee the guy's head'll split like a melon. I have quite a bit of Tameshigiri experience and i have tried this with both my own katana

Please don't be running at people with swords! :) All things being equal (sword weight etc) I think you could expect to finish up with one dented helmet and two damaged swords.

This is a bit of apples and oranges again and the time period issue. If your point is just about cutting power through armor, there is plenty on the Net about such stuff an I encourage you to browse the link I included at the top of this post. In short, swords of any culture did not do well against armor under battlefield conditions . I am aware of the controlled tests with a katana on a helmet. There were several flaws with this test, and it resulted only in cutting a few inches, hardly enough to kill a man who would probably be wearing padding and such under that. Add in the chaos and uncontrolled nature of battle and you are much more assured of a kill by going for a gap in a bit of armor than trying to cut through it. Thrust to the face would do just as well if you are keen on head injury (esp. with most open-faced Japanese helmets). Under the right conditions and with a blade designed to do so, aromor shearing results could probably be reproduced for any culture's weapons, not just the katana.

Lastly, a sharp sword is not going to "cut" through armor any better than a duller one. Getting through thick metal has much more to do with blade geometry, weight and momentum.

Thanks for the great post Zero-sen! I can see where you are coming from and from experience a lot of the east vs. west sword thing is just a matter of preference and brass tacks. It can be really hard to compare two such different martial traditions!
:bow:

[Iron Chef]

"I would like to take a stab at responding."

No pun intended right?
:)

[Maciamo]

Very interesting discussion Mandylion and Zero-sen !

Mandylion wrote :
As armor and fighting styles developed in Europe, weapons and their uses changed too. The Japanese seemed to find something they liked and stuck with it, preferring variations on a theme.

It's quite amazing to see that Japanese "fashion" has evolved so little through the centuries, especially from Heian times (9th c.) to late Edo period (late 19th c.). Both male and female kimono have hardly evolved, and apparently so have weapons, except maybe for an "upgrade" around sengoku-jidai (late 16th c.), possibly related to the first contact with Europeans and firearms. Japanese still wear kimonos on some occasions (or often, for some older ladies), but no Westerner would wear 13th c. crimson velvet robes and hats, nor Renaissance HenryVIII-like puffed shoulders and thighs with knee-high stockings, nor 17th c. long curly brown wigs with long blue or red jackets and a ruff, nor the shorter 18th c. white wigs and triangular hats, with a waistcoat, jacket and white tights, nor the early 19th c. high-collar black suits with white shirts and a huge white necktie... I could continue like that for ages. Actually, fashion has changed noticeably almost every decade since the 18th c. in Europe. Without Westernisation, Japanese would certainly be wearing the same kind of clothes as 1000 years ago now.

Zero-sen has made the mistake of seeing history as unevolutive, because he based himself to much on Japan. 11-12th century crusaders have little to do with 15-16th century knights or conquistadors, and even less with 17th century musketeers, 18th and 19th c. infantry and cavalry regiments. Guns (from muskets & canons to rifles and artillery) have been used in Western countries from the late 15th century, i.e. 100 years before the Tokugawa Shogunate. But the samurai battle style in Japan didn't change until Meiji, about 400 years later than Europe. Masamune and the like lived when Europe has already colonised America and people like Cortes and Pizarro had defeated army of millions of Aztecs and Quechuas (=>Inca), what Japanese samurai with their best katanas would never been able to do (even after seeing the Last Samurai :D ).

However, swords were still in use during the Edo period the West. Think of Napoleonian Hussards and Dragoons or, 60 years later, US Civil War Cavalry. Eventhough I am no expert in blades, their curved sabers were probably as good as the katanas of the time.

[Mandylion]

As an aside, I found this neat discussion about a samurai vs. a knight. I know these things are kicked around a lot on the web, but this page is a great overview to all the issues invloved and why these types of questions are so hard to answer.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm (article)

Also it also talks about all the things we have been going into with regards to historical periods. The rest of the site goes to a group that work a lot with historical Western martial arts and is worth a look.

http://www.thearma.org/ (homepage)

[Winter]

Not sure if its been said since I havent bothered to read all the replies, but Masamune's decendant still forges swords for clients. He's 26th gen. swordsmith.

I'm having one created from him to start a new family tradition, since most of my original traditions died out with the elders in my bloodline.

[Kneppy]

Hey Winter, does this decendant of Masamune have a website or any way to contact him about making a katana? I've been searching for him for a while now and am interested in purchasing a sword from him.

Thanks

[Crag]

im prety shure its true

[tetsunihon]

Not sure if its been said since I havent bothered to read all the replies, but Masamune's decendant still forges swords for clients. He's 26th gen. swordsmith.

I'm having one created from him to start a new family tradition, since most of my original traditions died out with the elders in my bloodline.


wow thats awsome, can you design a sword and have him craft it. and how much does he charge for crafting these swords?

[Hachiko]

Of course, as many should know, the Muramasa sword was emphasized (cheapened, perhaps?) in the anime/manga Samurai Deeper Kyo...

http://www.tokyopop.com/dbdocuments/3/9/3693.jpg

[Mandylion]

Most Japanese blades made by a Japanese smith in Japan with traditional methods start at around 5,000 USD for the bare blade. Once you add on a gaurd, handle, scabbard, wraps and other stuff, you will start getting close to 8,000 USD. The blade is made by one person, polished by another, assembled by a third, and making a scabbard is its own art all together.

There are lots of cheap Chinese and other made blades. However, quality can varry widely. If you are looking for something more than a display sword, be thinking around 600 USD or more.

Lastly, swords are not toys. If you want to see what happens with cheap cr*p, or when you do stupid things with weapons - visit this link.

http://www.933flz.com/audio/Knives.mpeg

OUCH!

[Winter]

tetsunihon: As far as I know, no, you cannot do that, nor should you do that.

Swordsmiths are masters in their art; to tell them what to do, would be like telling the Pope how to pray.

For instance, would you ask a prayer from the Pope, but request it done via a Pagan ritual?

My point is when you are blessed with the presence of a master blacksmith, dont expect to demand things. Not that you would, but if you want your own personal styled blade, become a smith yourself.

When you are getting a sword from these types of masters, you are getting generations of history, tradition, art. You get what they give, in short.

Kneppy: I'm pretty certain he doesnt have a site. I mean, this field of art isnt there as a commercial business.

[Mandylion]

I agree in part Winter. There are some smiths who don't mind making custom pieces. It is a cooperative project though and the smith is the one who has the last word.

Usually you can tell right off if the smith will make custom pieces. Plus you will probably find him/her by word of mouth.

Winter is right though - Japanese smiths usually don't do custom work after they get to a particular level. There are plenty of American and European ones who will - and the only difference you will get in most cases is cost and pedigree.

[Kneppy]

Thanks Winter. How did you find out about this man? I am a collector of bladed weapons. How would I be able to get a hold of him if I do not have the ability to go to Japan and know no Japanese?

Thanks

[Mandylion]

I'm curious too, as last I knew, his family - if it still is around - doesn't make swords anymore. Masamune's secrets / skills passed on with him. No one has been able to replicate his work.

Has someone picked it up again? I'd be interested in that story...

[tetsunihon]

I'm curious too, as last I knew, his family - if it still is around - doesn't make swords anymore. Masamune's secrets / skills passed on with him. No one has been able to replicate his work.

Has someone picked it up again? I'd be interested in that story...


well i have to agree but I read a book about samurai's and it also mentioned that he had an apprentice named I believe shiro Muramasa. He was trained in masamune's style but developed swords that were deamed cursed. So if Masamune died with his secrets maybe Muramasa has desendents that still crafts swords since the styles are some what close. Plus Muramasa name was banished from the guild wich could allow him and his desendents continue the art without wide regonition.

But then thats my speculation.....

[tetsunihon]

yes you are right but I would dishonor the blacksmith by telling him what to do. What I would like to do is show him the design and let him craft as he see fit. Like telling the architect to design a stylized house and he comes up with a workable design that fits the environment....

That what I would like.... being to ask him to craft a sword that is similar to what I designed but in his style. For instance Would like a two pairs wakizashi swords craft as one with a dragon ornamented hilt and the other with a tiger ornamented hilt. The blade would definitly be his tempered work. That what I mean.

What do you think?

[Mandylion]

well i have to agree but I read a book about samurai's and it also mentioned that he had an apprentice named I believe shiro Muramasa.

Muramasa's earliest known work dates to 1501.

The Masamune most people refer to (there were three smiths who signed their work Masamune at various periods), worked mainly in the middle 1300's.

The two could not have known each other.

There is an idea that because of the prohibitions by the Tokugawa (we are talking much later after both men were deat and gone) against Muramasa's blades - considereing them bad luck - the MURA character was cut off the tang and MUNE inscribed. Thus MuraMasa became Masamune, and thus the officials couldn't get upset. This might be the source of the confusion in thinking the two are somehow connected.

Just as an aside, just because something is signed with a name doesn't mean it was made by that smith. It was not uncommon for Japanese smiths for a long time to sign thier master's name, change their name, flat out try to swindle somebody with a fake/famous name, or just not sign it at all. This makes a huge headache out of tracing pedigree.

[Mandylion]

Just came across this (http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?eo20031229hs.htm) today in the Japan Times archives. Kind of relates to the discussion about what a sword can and can't do which we had earlier on this thread. Might be worth taking a look if you are still interested -

[tetsunihon]

Just came across this (http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?eo20031229hs.htm) today in the Japan Times archives. Kind of relates to the discussion about what a sword can and can't do which we had earlier on this thread. Might be worth taking a look if you are still interested -
that was an intersting article. In a way I had a feeling that Japanese swords would break... even the Samurai book I read said they break eventualy. But I guess in order to get that fine cutting, they wanted a thinner sword. Also the sword was light enough to folow through with defensive and offensive sweeping motions without hindering thing sword bearer with extra weight like the Medievil swords.
THen we may have to look at the fact that certain blades were possibly crafted for a one time use when the intent of killing a high ranking officer was in the works......as u may know they did test their swords on dead bodies to see how well they cut them in half.

well despite the fact that they are fragile I still prefer a thinner and lighter sword.... I would just before mindfull of what I use it on. :relief:

well nice article though.... :spray:

[Winter]

You gotta remember that swords arent created to block or parry other swords; fights would last 2-3 seconds tops, and a well placed slash would expose the innards of the losers throat. I reckon using them improperly like that, to block other steel weaponry, would attribute to even the finest of blades to dull and break.

Sword fights of the day are nothing like sword fights of the movies. Unless you are talking French fencing.

And speaking of French fencing and duelling, I know this is off topic, but has anyone heard of legendary fencer, La Maupin?

[tetsunihon]

You gotta remember that swords arent created to block or parry other swords; fights would last 2-3 seconds tops, and a well placed slash would expose the innards of the losers throat. I reckon using them improperly like that, to block other steel weaponry, would attribute to even the finest of blades to dull and break.

Sword fights of the day are nothing like sword fights of the movies. Unless you are talking French fencing.

And speaking of French fencing and duelling, I know this is off topic, but has anyone heard of legendary fencer, La Maupin?

your right and I didn't quite clearify that in my last statment. But I am aware that the Japanese swords were used for mostly quick kills. perhaps that is why the Naginata was use for war times.

[tetsunihon]

You gotta remember that swords arent created to block or parry other swords; fights would last 2-3 seconds tops, and a well placed slash would expose the innards of the losers throat. I reckon using them improperly like that, to block other steel weaponry, would attribute to even the finest of blades to dull and break.

Sword fights of the day are nothing like sword fights of the movies. Unless you are talking French fencing.

And speaking of French fencing and duelling, I know this is off topic, but has anyone heard of legendary fencer, La Maupin?

No I didn't hear about the sword fighter La Maupin but I would like to know if Zorro or the Musketeers were really real.

[Mandylion]

Also the sword was light enough to folow through with defensive and offensive sweeping motions without hindering thing sword bearer with extra weight like the Medievil swords.

We do have an image of western swords being big and heavy. Some where, but they were designed for a purpose and needed to be heavy. We should keep in mind the variety and constant development of armor. If a sword was made to be heavy, there was a very good reason. "European" does not equal "heavy" all the time. If you are talking about swords designed to be used with one hand (or two with a longer grip) they were often as light or lighter than Japanese blades. It would be silly to make a sword that puts you at a disadvantage. Even the biggest swords tend to top out at about 5 lbs - so I have been told by people who practice those styles of combet - and most single handed blades stop at around 2 to 2.5 lbs (about the same as a katana).

THen we may have to look at the fact that certain blades were possibly crafted for a one time use when the intent of killing a high ranking officer was in the works......

I hadn't heard that before :) I would be interested in learning more. Do you have a source I could go to Tetsunihon?

as u may know they did test their swords on dead bodies to see how well they cut them in half.

Yes, there are some references to this type of cutting test. However, they seemed to be rare. Of the records that do show tests on criminals (they would cut other things too) they are very detailed and often inscribed on the tang (part of the sword under the grip). It is safe to say that not a lot of swords went through this process because the vasy majority of antique swords do not have such records. The practice of cutting people for testing was only popular in the Edo period (1603-1868). This is only a very small period in the history of the Japanese sword so we shouldn't ascribe this practice to all samurai from all time periods

Plus, why take the chance in ruining a good blade? Bone can catch a blade or chip and edge, and I have heard stories that reed mats can bend a blade if you don't swing right (Japanese blades are not known for flexibility). I think cutting tests were more like crash tests for cars - a way to check to see if you have the right idea for your product.

[NinjaEmperor]

I don't know weather the spelling for Muramasa is correct, but according to the novel of James Clevel, Shogun; that sword was called Murasama, but the story of it is the same as the story of "evil sword". And I actually meant that Masamune's blades were amoung the best blades in Japan and as I learned later Muramasa or Murasama, was his apreantice and tried to make the same good swords. Wakarimasu ka?

Here's how Muramasa looks in Tenchu: Wreath of Heaven Game

http://www.tenchu.de/images/tenchu3/gallery/70b.jpg

[tetsunihon]

I don't know weather the spelling for Muramasa is correct, but according to the novel of James Clevel, Shogun; that sword was called Murasama, but the story of it is the same as the story of "evil sword". And I actually meant that Masamune's blades were amoung the best blades in Japan and as I learned later Muramasa or Murasama, was his apreantice and tried to make the same good swords. Wakarimasu ka?

Here's how Muramasa looks in Tenchu: Wreath of Heaven Game

http://www.tenchu.de/images/tenchu3/gallery/70b.jpg

yes just resently I noticed to, even in final fantasy tactics there is a sword call murasama, but rather the two names are related that is some thing I will have to check out. But so far i have a book called Secret of the Samurai and it actually mentions Senzo Muramasa as the apprentice of Masamune. And yes he did make good swords but apparently they were probably so thin and sharp that they easily cut through things and broke easily. On the other hand Masamune supposedly commended him for the craftmenship anyway.

[Winter]

No I didn't hear about the sword fighter La Maupin but I would like to know if Zorro or the Musketeers were really real.

Musketeers were real. They were basically the first organized rifle infrantry men.

The 3 Musketeers on the other hand, I'd reckon were fiction. They didnt even use muskets, did they?

[Mandylion]

Muramasa and Masamune were people, not swords. Clavels's book is a novel, not a serious research-based book.

The famous Masamune and Muramasa have no physical connection to each other. Several smiths (on the order of 30) were named Muramasa or Masamune over the years - only two were ever famous. Senzo is not the Muramasa who has all this hype about his swords being cursed. This is probably because Senzo's swords were basically worthless, if what tetsunihon says is true (about the brittleness). Samurai, until about the Tokugawa shogunate (1603 to 1868) put a much greater value on functional than decorative weapons.

[Mandylion]

But I am aware that the Japanese swords were used for mostly quick kills. perhaps that is why the Naginata was use for war times.
A naginata will kill you just as fast as a sword ;)

Naginata (a type of halberd) were used like many long weapons - keeping the enemy away from you. The also were, much, much, much (etc....) better at busting through armor than a sword.

Swords in all cultures were weapons of last resort on a battlefield. Kind of like a military sidearm today. Sure, you could kill someone with a sword, but there were much better and less risky ways of going about it.

We shouldn't ascribe to the samurai some kind of superhuman ethical code when it came to battle - like I mentioned somewhere on the thread earlier. Samurai suffer from so many misconceptions and romatic notions. A few Japanese authors get sentimental in the 1700's and suddenly every samurai ever born was a steeled, cool eyed warrior. Not so. Western media gets ahold of this and suddenly it becomes the truth... Samurai would just as soon resort to deception and guile to win. Many a samurai was cut down by other samurai laying in wait. Even Musashi, seeming everyone's favorite samurai, won several duels using surprise as a weapon.

[Zero-sen]

Konnichi wa, I had checked out this book on "Secrets of the Samurai" and found a lot of good information on almost every Samurai in Japanese history. I also found a small stroy about the blacksmiths Muramasa and Masamune. they were blacksmiths who created the toughest and sharpest steel. But one of them was considered evil along with his sword. How true is this story?:bow:

does anybody know or heard of Masamune and Muramasa?


I knew i'd heard this before so i checked my books. As the story goes Muramasa-san was visited by a fellow smith, when he turned his back to check a blade the visitor dipped his hand into the quenching trough. Muramasa-san saw this and sliced the man's hand off with the blade he was inspecting. Apparently he never drained the trough to remove the blood so from then on his blades were deemed to be possessed with vampiritic demons. :giggle:

As for the test cutting or "Tameshigiri" this practice was often carried out using corpses however, it was also very popular amongst certain Daimyo to use criminals or prisoners for the practice too. Oda Nobunaga was apparently very fond of literally using "live" targets.

[NinjaEmperor]

Muramasa and Masamune were people, not swords. Clavels's book is a novel, not a serious research-based book.

The famous Masamune and Muramasa have no physical connection to each other. Several smiths (on the order of 30) were named Muramasa or Masamune over the years - only two were ever famous. Senzo is not the Muramasa who has all this hype about his swords being cursed. This is probably because Senzo's swords were basically worthless, if what tetsunihon says is true (about the brittleness). Samurai, until about the Tokugawa shogunate (1603 to 1868) put a much greater value on functional than decorative weapons.
I well aware of it, but that novel based on a true story of an English man who came to Japan on Duth ship in 1600 right before Tokugawa Iyeyasu seized the power of the Shogun and was favored by Tokugawa. The information in that book is historicaly correct only that Tokugawa is called Toronaga, his eldest son called Oda and Muramasa is called Murasama. Other then that, information is correct and James Clevel consulted different people in Europe and Asia before writing that novel, even the main rival of Toronaga for the Shogun's power is Ishido, the one who was defeated by Tokugawa at Sekigahara on October or November of 1600. I think it's more than just a coincidence and by the way, the story of an "evil sword" is also used in the book and mentions all of the things happened with it and Tokugawa family and some more. It's says that Toronaga's grandfather had been assossinated by Murasama, then Murasama sword nearly cuted off Toronaga's right arm and bled him to death when he was a child from out of nowhere, also that sword decapitated his first born chiled, the one who commited suicide as I belive. As I perceve it, that is the same story as the story of a real historical figure, only different names or spelling were used for the novel, or there might had been some changes in spelling made since the novel was writen. :p

[Mandylion]

I'm not saying Shogun is not a good book - it is very entertaining. All good historical fiction will carry a strong dose of period-accurate detail. However, with all legends, stories, tall tales (like the cutting off of a man's hand cursing Muramasa's swords) need to be taken with a huge does of salt ...enough to kill a horse :)

It is very easy to apply fantastic stories to famous people in history. All groups and cultures do it. Lets face it, we love a good story. It gives a bit of color to the past and lets the imagination run a little wild. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem, and much of Japanese history suffers from this, is when the stories beging to take on the appearence of fact. Just because it was in a book doesn't make it real - I know I am preaching to the chior here - history is a very malleable object as governments, story tellers, the media and even academia have shown again and again.

Curses, legends, stories are just what they appear. Lets leave them that way. :bow:

[NinjaEmperor]

So what you are trying to say is that what was said earlier about Tokugawa and Muramasa is not build upon true fact ???

[Mandylion]

Based upon fact and being a fact are two very different things.

No, the Tokugawas did consider blades made by Muramasa unlucky and the events similar to ones you mentioned did in fact happen. Tokugawa's grandfather was killed by a sword Muramasa made (though not with that goal in mind), his father was attacked by a drunk with a short sword made by Muramasa and Tokugawa cut his hand, not his arm, with one by accident. I have never heard of Tokugawa's first born decapitated, but if a sword by Muramasa was used, I think it would be out of respect for his high position (when you commit ritual suicide you have a second person to cut of your head after you cut your belly. This is a position of great responsibiity and a terrible dishonor if you botch the beheading. It seems naturally to me a blade that would be really good at cutting would be selected. Muramasa were said to be some of the best - a logical choice for the situation).

What I was trying to say is that somehow then extending some kind of curse to all blades made by Muramasa, or that somehow this curse was brought about by a severed hand in a quenching tank, etc. similar stories surrounding the samurai, Japanese swords and history should be approached with grave caution.

For example let's look at the Muramasa - Tokugawa thing. Muramasa's swords were very good at cutting, so it has been said. Samurai would have kept them around. Let's face it, a great sword doesn't come around everyday. Thus, you have the elite of the elite carrying around these weapons because they are rare and marks of great status. Is it that surprising that when the elite fight other elite, the rare class of weapons they use will naturally do the killing?

Only one death and two woundings (one wound being self inflicted) in the Tokugawa family over a period of three generations (some 60 years with 20 years to a generation) were caused by Muramasa's baldes. It wasn't as if around every corner was an assassin with a careful picked Muramasa blade at the ready. Muramasa did not make blades in some dark workshop in league with the devil chucking "heh, heh, heh...this one will be the end of the Tokugawas..." Muramasa would have been dead by the time the Tokugawas were in any position to restrict his swords. Let's not let the eccentric concerns of an absolute ruler or two impact too much on our interpretations of history.

You know what they say, live by the sword, die by the sword. If all the men in my family were all carpenters, and three of the most important had suffered some injury on a Craftsman saw of some sort, I think it would be natural for my family would develop an suspicion of the brand, wouldn't you? If we happened to be all powerful despots to boot, I also think we would ban or restrict the sale of Craftsman tools.

Or think of it like this - instead of swords, modern day samurai would kill each other with cars. Bently make some of the best looking, best working cars on the road, something any samurai would die to be seen in. Now a few Bently owning samurai hate the Tokugawas and a chance to kill a Tokugawa comes along. Our Bently owning samurai takes the chance, just like a Muramasa owning samurai would in feudal Japan. So now the Tokugawas are jumpy about any Bently they see out on the road and for a little peace of mind impose restrictions on who can own and drive Bentlys. Same thing for Muramasa's swords.

But coincidence and logic are pretty boring. A story about a curse and evil Muramasa blades longing for the taste of blood is much more interesting. :)

And there is nothing wrong with that as long as it can be kept in perspective.

That was what I was trying to say :bow:

Remember, based on fact and being a fact are not the same.

[tetsunihon]

Musketeers were real. They were basically the first organized rifle infrantry men.

The 3 Musketeers on the other hand, I'd reckon were fiction. They didnt even use muskets, did they?


I wouldn't for sure, but I'm sure they were using guns by then anyway and the musketeers was probably a name given to them from the king. As for three of them, maybe they were three friends who stumble apon a plot and got the whole group to help the king.

[0pticphyb3r]

I have an interesting story to impart from my childhood - a family friend of Japanese decent often had these little jewels of wisdom for me. I found this story later in a book or two but liked his version the best:

Masamune was an old swordsmith master whose apprentice Muramasa was gaining fame each day because of the perfection of his craftsmanship and the seemingly inherint ability of his blades to deliver clean kills with every stroke.

Upon the day of his death a noble lord asked Muramasa how he came to deliver such fine blades. Muramasa said "when I complete a blade I dip it into a stream blade first and hold it until a floating leaf comes in contact with the blade. If the leaf is sliced cleanly in two then I knew it as ready."

The noble lord was impressed greatly and started to shower praise upon Muramasa when Muramasa stopped him.

Muramasa then said "my blades were fine but not as fine as my masters. I have never made a single blade that compared to Masamune's." The noble lord asked how this could be and Muramasa responded "when my master placed his blade in the stream he also waited for a leaf to float towards it. But the leaf floating directly towards the edge of my masters blades always miraculously went around the blade missing it completely. You see... my masters blades had the ablilty to protect life and preserve the order of things. Mine could only kill."

Anyways it was something like that... I always remembered that story even now... twenty-five years later. Fact or fiction Muramasa and Masamune are men not to be forgotten.

That's my 2cents... anyways

[TwistedMac]

I think the blades of these craftsmen were great in their time but probably nothing like the legends say..

ofcourse it'll be hard to recreate them.. it'd be pretty damn hard to recreate the excalibur the way the legend tells it too...

They were probably just pretty damn good swords...

Legends tend to be MUCH better than the original..

but as I always say..

That's just my 2 Sen


on teh topic of the musketeers, the fact that they don't use muskets is irrelevant.. when i was in the army (swedish), the company next to me was called the cavalry, but i can assure you they didn't ride horses... It's just a name they've kept since a hundred years ago when they DID....

maybe the musketeers started out as a musket regement and moved on to be the queens personal bodyguard (as they were)

[kuchi]

I have an interesting story to impart from my childhood - a family friend of Japanese decent often had these little jewels of wisdom for me. I found this story later in a book or two but liked his version the best:

Masamune was an old swordsmith master whose apprentice Muramasa was gaining fame each day because of the perfection of his craftsmanship and the seemingly inherint ability of his blades to deliver clean kills with every stroke.

Upon the day of his death a noble lord asked Muramasa how he came to deliver such fine blades. Muramasa said "when I complete a blade I dip it into a stream blade first and hold it until a floating leaf comes in contact with the blade. If the leaf is sliced cleanly in two then I knew it as ready."

The noble lord was impressed greatly and started to shower praise upon Muramasa when Muramasa stopped him.

Muramasa then said "my blades were fine but not as fine as my masters. I have never made a single blade that compared to Masamune's." The noble lord asked how this could be and Muramasa responded "when my master placed his blade in the stream he also waited for a leaf to float towards it. But the leaf floating directly towards the edge of my masters blades always miraculously went around the blade missing it completely. You see... my masters blades had the ablilty to protect life and preserve the order of things. Mine could only kill."

Anyways it was something like that... I always remembered that story even now... twenty-five years later. Fact or fiction Muramasa and Masamune are men not to be forgotten.

That's my 2cents... anyways


that is a great story, especially since it has roots in fact. im sure it is one i will remember as well, thank you.

[Gaki]

Someone mentioned it earlier about Masamune's descendant, i saw a TV documentary about it recently on the history channel.

I think the guy lives and is based in a city somewhere southwest of Tokyo, i think it's Kanagawa, or some city beginning with K anyway. :P
If the program is on again i'll write it down and post it up.

[Qualitydaydream]

Hello Everyone, I am brand new to this forum. I live in Kamakura Japan and own a golf company in Tokyo. I too have watched an English program about Famous Japanese swords and it has inspired me to begin my collection. I have been asking all the sword makers who the best sword maker is as of now and they all sent me to the same place in my very own town.

Today I ordered my very first sword in my collection, it is made by the verified and authentic 24th Generation masamune ancestor. My sword will take 2 years to make due to the wait list. I am their first foreigner ( American born in Hawaii ) to have ever entered their shop for a sword. The sword will take 2 months to make but a total of 2 - 3 years due to the wait list ahead of me. Please bare with me I am a noob in the art of fine Japanese swords but not a noob in regards to collecting rare items from all over the world.

I ordered a Katana, with inscribed Kanji and it is the blade only for 1,600,000yen or 15,000 U.S dollars. Masamune the 24th did not speak any English and my Japanese is broken but his 2 apprentices spoke English very well and told me there are only 47 masamune swords ever made and almost all of them are in museums as national treasure. Masamune the 24th has one hidden somewhere and it is supposedly the finest sword masamune has ever ever made passed from son to son for 24 generations. Of course I asked how much, the answer was there is no price because its priceless and his family's air loom. I later found out that one of the apprentices was his son and still called him Master. I am very excited to get my sword, they even tried hard to turn me away but after hearing he is the ancestor and the secret diluted yet still very in tact would be a part of making this sword I could not resist. I am very excited. I am looking for some sort of education about masamune can anyone help me?

Thank you,
Christopher

[Mandylion]

Well, this thread for starters! Also, sheck out www.swordforum.com and search there for "Masamune." You will find a ton of stuff. Happy hunting.

[h04x]

The historical Masamune's familiar name is Goro Nyudo. Masamune is probably the best known Japanese swordsmith of all time, as well as a well-known philosopher.

Masamune is believed to have worked in Sagami Province during the last part of the Kamakura Era (1185-1332), and it is thought that he was trained by swordsmiths from Bizen and Yamashiro provinces, such as Kunitsuna and Kunimitsu.

The first famous swordsmith active in Kamakura, Sagami province was Shintogo Kunimitsu. It is claimed (in Kanchiinbon Meizukushi) that he was a grandson of a swordsmith of the Taima school in Yamato province. It is generally accepted that Kunimitsu had two pupils, Yukimitsu and Masamune. The earliest among Kunimitsu's works are those reliably dated to 1293 and the latest dated 1324. Judging from the dates of Kunimitsu's works, Masamune was active from the end of Kamakura (1185-1332) to the very early years of the Nanbokucho (1333-1391) period.

The Soshu School:
Masamune is credited with creating the Soshu tradition of swordmaking during his career. "Soshu" or Soshu Kitae as it is formally known, is a seven layer lamination technique used in making the blade. The heart of the blade is formed from softer, more malleable steel giving it exceptional flexibility. There is then a layer of slightly harder steel bonded to each side of the blades heart, giving it support. The last layers are a very hard steel bonded to the top, bottom, and both sides of the core forming the ha (cutting edge) mune (back edge) and shinogi-ji (blade flats). This form of laminar construction provided for a sword that could be sharpened to a razor edge due to the hardened steed used for the ha, but was extremely resilient to battle damage due to its softer more flexible core. Masamune's adopted son, Sadamune succeeded him as master of the Soshu tradition.

In addition, legend has it that there were "10 Disciples of Masamune," or ten swordsmiths that continued working in Masamune's Soshu tradition of sword making, and that several already well-known swordsmiths also came to study with Masamune. The Masamune Jittetsu, as these smiths were called, worked in their own tradition as well as studying the techniques of Masamune.

Regardless of whether or not this is a historical fact, the swordsmiths working at the end of the Kamakura to the Nanbokucho periods produced works with the surface texture featuring nie, a distinguishing feature of the Masamune style. Nie are areas of bright crystalline structure in the hamon (temper-line) or ji (the blade surface between the ridgeline of the blade and the hamon), resulting from the interaction of the steel during the quenching process. Masamune's style is often referred to as "the beauty of nie," putting his blades in distinct contrast with Bizen blades.

Masamune's school of swordmaking is also often characterized by the soft, flowing hamon visible on his blades. A proper polish is required for the activities in the hamon to be well visualized. (An active hamon is normally the mark of a better quality blade.)

Documented Swords:
Masamune created many superb swords, and all of his surviving blades are considered national treasures in Japan. Seeing his signature on a sword is extremely rare, and there are just a few swords authenticated as his work. This body of work includes a few unsigned swords attributed to him. Their splendid craftsmanship has led to the high praise of Masamune as a master swordsmith. "Fudo Masamune," "Kyogoku Masamune," and "Daikoku Masamune" are accepted examples of his genuine works.

Masamune's works are the most frequently cited among the swords listed in the Kyoho Meibutsu Cho, a catalogue of "excellent swords" in the collections of daimyos edited during the Kyoho era (1716-1736) by Hon-ami.

Today, the name Masamune has become synonymous with "an excellent sword".

information and references used for this post inculde works by Jinsoo Kim (Nihon-to Books) and The Japanese sword guide, found at http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

-edited to correct spelling-

[Avodrok]

Everybody forgot about the Rasamune. The Rasamune was created by a person who was jealous of Masamune. He Quickly created a sword that he tried to make rival the Masamune. The sword was so horrible that if used it would sap the strength of the person using the blade.

[Shooter452]

I have quite a bit of Tameshigiri experience and i have tried this with both my own katana ( the tiger by Paul Chen ), and with the Hanwei forge western blades. Whilst they are in no way near the quality of the older blades (This is in no way to disrespect Mr Chen, his blades are excellent), This does give a real sense of what you're up against.



I also have Master Paul Chen's blades. I bought the complete daisho including the tanto. While this purchase was perhaps the most questionable acquisition on which I have ever spent good money, I love them as works of art. They are more akin to a Maxfield Parrish paintning than weapons like my sidearms and rifles. I take them from the display stand each month to dust them, oil the blades, and talc them with the polishing ball because it thrills me just to have them.

It is, however, my understanding that these edged weapons were all created by the maru-gitae method of forging, using special clay to coat the blades (except for an eighth-inch of the cutting edge) before quenching them. This allowed the blade to cool more slowly, making the steel softer and more supple--except for the actual edge, which cooled quickly, into a very, very, hard steel, able to hold sharpness under abuse.

This method is used to mass-produce swords. The great works of Japanese sword crafting would likely be made by other methods, the makuri-gitae method being one I would select if I was a wealthy daimyo looking for the finest of swords.

IIRC, the curve of Japanese single-edged blades is formed by the cooling, with the denser metal contracting at a differenet rate than the forward edge portion. The style of sword play made use of the curve, enabling samurai to s-l-i-c-e through their victims with a pulling strike, rather than hack through with massive force.

It was my understanding that the Nordic and Sweedish sword makers of about the same period (10th through 13th Centuries) made weapons of equal quality as far as the steel used in the manufacture. It was in subtlety of design where the Japanese sword smiths had their advantage. The undeniable advantage in beauty of simplicity was an added advantage.

Am I misinformed?

PS: is it true that Japanese sword smiths used only water to quench their blades, not oils like Western craftsmen?

[newbee9181]

sup everyone, im a newbee to this forum and i am very interested in purchasing a katana. so i thought i might as u guys for some info. like where can i get a katana, not a fake one but a real one hand made, folded steel. i want one as a family heir loom. but i dont want something that is fake for it would not hold any value. but i dont know too much about japanese swords and i would probably end up buying something that is not what they say it is.
i have found several sites that say there swords are and made folded steel but im am reluctant to make a purchase. swords from guys like Paul Chen and last legend look nice but are they pretty good quality swords. i have no idea so some help would be greatly apreciated.
would someone point me in the right direction???

if u have any ideas or info that would help me find one feel free to private message me. thanks every one.

[Shooter452]

If you have a pretty deep pocket (over a thousand dollars) you can try the Sword Armory at http://www.swordarmory.com/. They sell the line of daisho forged by Paul Chen that are folded steel, finely sharpened, and are hardened in the Marru Gitae style.

I own the complete daisho of the Tiger blades (katana, wakizashis, and tanto), but it was an investment of over two thousand bucks five years ago when I made the purchase. It costs much more to procure the same blades today.

Of course you can get a set of swords that are blunt, of cheap steel, and with phoney temper lines (hamon), and only fit for display at almost any pawn shop. The price will be a couple hundred bucks.

[newbee9181]

no way im willing to spend good money for these swords, but i have no clue if paul chen swords are any good and need opinion and input on this.
but thanks for the heads up shooter.
btw do u like ur paul chen swords. are they pretty good???
and what about last legend swords are they good too?? :cool: :-)

[Shooter452]

no way im willing to spend good money for these swords, but i have no clue if paul chen swords are any good and need opinion and input on this.
but thanks for the heads up shooter.
btw do u like ur paul chen swords. are they pretty good???
and what about last legend swords are they good too?? :cool: :-)

They are indeed of high quality. Master Chen makes excellent edged weapons of various quality, but the folded steel weapons are as good as any found outside Japan. His forge is located in the PRC. He--as I stated before--uses the maru-gitae method of sword craft that is designed to mass produce weapons of uniform quality for worthy vassels. It is not the method one would use to produce the very highest quality swords when price is not an issue. Swords such as those of makuri-gitae style, are priceless works of art that are declared national treasures by the Japanese and are unavailable at any amount of money.

I am very proud of my daisho. My Tiger katana is in fact the first that was sold in the USA and the same one that is displayed at the Sword Armory website. Go to http://www.swordarmory.com/katanas/1204gt.htm to view my sword and the prices on the set of Tiger weapons.

It holds a fine, sharp edge, but I must admit the I have yet to kill anyone with it in combat, so it has not been abused at all. The true mark of a Japanese sword is that it is resilient in combat. Short of that, I can vouch for them.

The workmanship is first rate and done totally by hand (no machining goes into any of his folded-steel swords). That is why they are so damned expensive.

I hope that helps.

PS: Last-Legend weapons have sterling reputation. I cannot say more since I own none of them.

[newbee9181]

thanks for the input shooter. i would definetly look into to paul chens swords. i think i might get the folded orchid or the folded bushido sets. i like those swords. i have been serching the net and doing research and i think it would be good to get one of his peices.
thanks again shooter

[Shooter452]

thanks for the input shooter. i would definetly look into to paul chens swords. i think i might get the folded orchid or the folded bushido sets. i like those swords. i have been serching the net and doing research and i think it would be good to get one of his peices.
thanks again shooter

'T'is my plesure, newbee. I hope you find your blades.

I am told that the word for "sword" in some languages is the same as the word for "truth." I hope you find the truth of your life.


Gloria virtutis umbra

[jack84]

I'm writeing this just to clarifiy a few facts. I hope thats ok with you guys.

What distinguishes japan's swords from most is the fact that they are made in a style resembeling a damascues blade. A piece of very strong metal is brought and is melted when it has completly melted it is then straightened into a long bar and than pounded on it self to make it bend into layers. from there it is pounded again to make it into three layers and the process goes on as much as the sword maker wants it to be. The thickest blades are usally made to 2 to the power of 3 or was it to the power of five sorry cant really remeber the number exactly but it is between these powers. This made the sword very resistent to breaking while making it very functional yet it is rare and very expensive to find a sword with the thickness talked about in the above. The sword was made to withstand a lot of abuse due to the fact that although the japans wore armor in battle the armor was made of raw treated hide and a well placed blow would easily split it this was due to the fact of the shortage of iron ores in japan and although the battles are not what they show in the movies but when you have to master that have train on the sword for 10 to 15 years the battle will atleast take more than 5 minutes. Also about testing the blades by cutting a human body it is not really testing the blade it was actually a process used to cool the sword for the final time. it is belived that by doing that a sword cans the will to actually seek blood since it has been implanted into it from the moment of making it but this was a rare process and was only used against criminals. The most number of people used for this process were five, the sword would be passed through five people while it was hot to cool it down but usally it was less and was rarly done. hope somone finds this information useful in anyway :-)

[Shooter452]

I'm writeing this just to clarifiy a few facts. I hope thats ok with you guys.

What distinguishes japan's swords from most is the fact that they are made in a style resembeling a damascues blade. A piece of very strong metal is brought and is melted when it has completly melted it is then straightened into a long bar and than pounded on it self to make it bend into layers. from there it is pounded again to make it into three layers and the process goes on as much as the sword maker wants it to be. The thickest blades are usally made to 2 to the power of 3 or was it to the power of five sorry cant really remeber the number exactly but it is between these powers. This made the sword very resistent to breaking while making it very functional yet it is rare and very expensive to find a sword with the thickness talked about in the above. The sword was made to withstand a lot of abuse due to the fact that although the japans wore armor in battle the armor was made of raw treated hide and a well placed blow would easily split it this was due to the fact of the shortage of iron ores in japan and although the battles are not what they show in the movies but when you have to master that have train on the sword for 10 to 15 years the battle will atleast take more than 5 minutes. Also about testing the blades by cutting a human body it is not really testing the blade it was actually a process used to cool the sword for the final time. it is belived that by doing that a sword cans the will to actually seek blood since it has been implanted into it from the moment of making it but this was a rare process and was only used against criminals. The most number of people used for this process were five, the sword would be passed through five people while it was hot to cool it down but usally it was less and was rarly done. hope somone finds this information useful in anyway :-)

I do not mind at all, Jack. However not all Nihonto are laminated in one way. Some, for example, are made with a soft core of steel that has harder steel wrapped around it--the makuri-gitae style I described previous being one of which I am aware. There were also kobuse, honsanmai, shihozume, wariha-tetsu...I cannot even remember them all. There are many sources on the Net if you are interested in the basics. I am not aware of any exponential measurement, but they are indeed stronger than unlaminated blades.

The quenching method you describe does not strike me as being efficient and is somewhat bizzare. Are you sure that information is not apocryphal?

Japanese armor is also laminated. It is my understanding that it was usually made from differening substances that often indeed included metal plates along with sinew, bone, leather, padded fabric, wood, etc. They were secured with silken cords, a possible vulnerability.

[zafer]

I'm writeing this just to clarifiy a few facts. I hope thats ok with you guys.

What distinguishes japan's swords from most is the fact that they are made in a style resembeling a damascues blade. A piece of very strong metal is brought and is melted when it has completly melted it is then straightened into a long bar and than pounded on it self to make it bend into layers. from there it is pounded again to make it into three layers and the process goes on as much as the sword maker wants it to be. The thickest blades are usally made to 2 to the power of 3 or was it to the power of five sorry cant really remeber the number exactly but it is between these powers. This made the sword very resistent to breaking while making it very functional yet it is rare and very expensive to find a sword with the thickness talked about in the above. The sword was made to withstand a lot of abuse due to the fact that although the japans wore armor in battle the armor was made of raw treated hide and a well placed blow would easily split it this was due to the fact of the shortage of iron ores in japan and although the battles are not what they show in the movies but when you have to master that have train on the sword for 10 to 15 years the battle will atleast take more than 5 minutes. Also about testing the blades by cutting a human body it is not really testing the blade it was actually a process used to cool the sword for the final time. it is belived that by doing that a sword cans the will to actually seek blood since it has been implanted into it from the moment of making it but this was a rare process and was only used against criminals. The most number of people used for this process were five, the sword would be passed through five people while it was hot to cool it down but usally it was less and was rarly done. hope somone finds this information useful in anyway :-)

Cool.

What are you doing in abu dabi?

[tetsunihon]

i appreciate your insite on your view about the crafts of the swords. keep this in mind most of the information i looked up and read came from an official book about samurai's and most of the practices that they did. the references were reserched in Japan itself so most of the topics we talk about are based on someones elses reserch. One things for sure, like your findings many blacksmiths did things differently when it came to selecting a crafted sword. my information was based on the crafts of the two legendary swords and how they were crafted. So no one is wrong in the information that they find about the crafts of the swords. thank you for your input. I think one of the most interesting swords to investigate is the flexable fencing sword.

[Shooter452]

As luck would have it, I saw a piece on the International History Channel that described how pattern-welded blades were made from twisting steel rods together, pounding them flat while super-heated, folding them repeated times, and then forging into a sword. This process was required because it was difficult to assure the quality of the iron from which the sword was forged into steel in the first place.

This process was discovered by Anglo-Saxon swordsmiths in the Eleventh Century and was remarkably similar to the Damascus process earlier mentioned. It had been copied from Nordic and Danish smiths, who had discovered/stolen the secret even earlier.

So much for assumptions.

*shrug*

[Kagetora]

Hello I am new to this site but however i could not help but read all of the information you have posted on some of the most famous swordsmiths in japanese history. the few articles on masamune caught my eye and if it woulddnt bother anybody i would like to add a bit more on masamune. masamune was a swordsmith and very well known during the kamakura period. His swords were and still are widely known for their perfect cuurve as well as strength and sharpness. An0othher interesting quality his swords had were the hamon(temper line) It seemed to shift like clouds. a masamune blade today only needs to be cleaned maybe once or twice a year and it never rusts which any sword collector find quite unusual in his swords. Now as for the legend part. the leggend of masamune's sword was that only a man/woman (non discriminative here) of pure heart could weild the sword and to tell this the weilder would thrust his sword into a river and if a leaf that were flowing towards the blade were repelled then the weilder was truly pure of heart. the reason oof his sword doing this was to show that a sword was not only to take lives but also to save lives. Where as a murasame sword would attract the leaves to it and cut through them all showing that his sword was made purely for destruction. *takes a breath* I hope that you all may enjoy some of this info that i have given on masamune and if anybody would like to make a correcti0on or have an opinion please do as i would much apreciate it. take care.

[alke]

They are indeed of high quality. Master Chen makes excellent edged weapons of various quality, but the folded steel weapons are as good as any found outside Japan. His forge is located in the PRC. He--as I stated before--uses the maru-gitae method of sword craft that is designed to mass produce weapons of uniform quality for worthy vassels. It is not the method one would use to produce the very highest quality swords when price is not an issue. Swords such as those of makuri-gitae style, are priceless works of art that are declared national treasures by the Japanese and are unavailable at any amount of money.

I am very proud of my daisho. My Tiger katana is in fact the first that was sold in the USA and the same one that is displayed at the Sword Armory website. Go to http://www.swordarmory.com/katanas/1204gt.htm to view my sword and the prices on the set of Tiger weapons.

It holds a fine, sharp edge, but I must admit the I have yet to kill anyone with it in combat, so it has not been abused at all. The true mark of a Japanese sword is that it is resilient in combat. Short of that, I can vouch for them.

The workmanship is first rate and done totally by hand (no machining goes into any of his folded-steel swords). That is why they are so damned expensive.

I hope that helps.

PS: Last-Legend weapons have sterling reputation. I cannot say more since I own none of them.

personally, i'm looking at the Miyamoto Musashi daisho set http://www.orientalweapons.com/en-us/dept_316.html

[Shooter452]

personally, i'm looking at the Miyamoto Musashi daisho set http://www.orientalweapons.com/en-us/dept_316.html
The add does not say if they are folded blades or not. Not all of Paul Chen's blades are folded steel. These are certainly maru-gitae method swords because of the tempering process, so they are of certain quality.

Wish you luck with the swords, alke.

[alke]

actually, i've seen other ads with them, that say they are, that one just had a good picture
http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1940&step=4

i think that one says it is

[Shooter452]

actually, i've seen other ads with them, that say they are, that one just had a good picture
http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1940&step=4

i think that one says it is
It does? Gee, I musta missed it. I am careless and hasty that way sometimes.

No matter, really. It is a fine weapon, and it is certainly hand crafted. I recommend that you buy from the first source and save the difference.

[Shooter452]

There are in my region two swords that were taken in the Pacific as war trophies. They are part of an estate that has gone into liquidation and the price tag on each is not all that much, but I have heard from many sources that the swords carried by Japanese officers during the Second World War were "lesser swords" of varying quality. I have not the expertise to value them, but I was wondering if Mandylion has any idea of the general quality of wartime Japanese sword craft.

Whatcha think, Mandy?

[gokarosama]

Japanese war swords, or the swords made for officers to wear, are called "gunto" and in terms of the NBTHK are generally not considered worthy of recognition as art swords. In fact, they are illegal to own in Japan (since they do not qualify as "art" they are thus only weapons) and upon confiscation are destroyed.

The steel used to make these swords was quite often of a much lower quality than that used in swords of earlier periods or made using traditional methods. Many of the WW II officer swords were also mass-produced by machine rather than hand-forged.

This is not to say the swords are not worth having. One man's junk is another man's treasure. They would probably be interesting as historical artifacts if nothing else.

You can find a much more detailed discussion of these type swords at Rich Stein's site (which is incidentally linked to by Mandylion in his main Q & A post here (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/military.htm) and here. (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/civilian.htm)

[Shooter452]

Japanese war swords, or the swords made for officers to wear, are called "gunto" and in terms of the NBTHK are generally not considered worthy of recognition as art swords. In fact, they are illegal to own in Japan (since they do not qualify as "art" they are thus only weapons) and upon confiscation are destroyed.

The steel used to make these swords was quite often of a much lower quality than that used in swords of earlier periods or made using traditional methods. Many of the WW II officer swords were also mass-produced by machine rather than hand-forged.

This is not to say the swords are not worth having. One man's junk is another man's treasure. They would probably be interesting as historical artifacts if nothing else.

You can find a much more detailed discussion of these type swords at Rich Stein's site (which is incidentally linked to by Mandylion in his main Q & A post here (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/military.htm) and here. (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/civilian.htm)
While I will review the suggested sources, I have been counciled by a former member of the US Department of State that all war-trophy swords collected by returning US servicemen from the Second World War in the Pacific are advised to be returned to Japan. As this is not a requirement and these swords are not prohibted by private ownership here (yet), his advice was that these weapons may have some historical significance to the Japanese.

Whether or not Japan will destroy these two swords when they are returned, if they are returned, I am taking the advice of my friend and I will not seek them at auction as I had entertained thoughts of doing.

If I find out later that one of the two katanas was the personal sword of Admiral Nagumo, I will feel foolish (what a trophy!) but since they were most likely taken on Saipan even if it was possible, it is unlikely.

I'll stand aside and let this truck hit someone else

[gokarosama]

Your friend sounds noble-minded and I applaud his concern that the possession of a fallen soldier might fall into the "wrong" hands, but....

I will state, unequivocally, that "gunto," Showa-era, stamped, machine-made swords are now illegal in Japan. They will be confiscated and destroyed if detected.

An exception might be a sword collected by a serviceman while in Japan which was not, in fact a "gunto" (i.e. not made during the Showa era) but an older sword made using traditional methods, which could still be considered an "art" sword. (Note there are traditionally-made swords being made now called "gendaito" or "shinsakuto" which are not illegal--this has to do with their aesthetic value and the fact that they are now considered "objets d'art"--regardless of their capacity to be used as real weapons. The distinction is still made.) Swords were outlawed during the U.S. occupation of Japan, and many were confiscated--thus the possibility that these older swords could have fallen in to the hands of U.S. servicemen.

If the sword was taken on Saipan it is unlikely to be anyone's heirloom or older sword. I'm not sure how your friend suggests returning such swords--mailing them General Delivery to the Tokyo post office? To the offices of the NBTHK? There would be precious little way of finding the original soldier/s who carried such swords, and, even, if found, locating any living relatives. A moot point if the blade were to be destroyed, anyway.

Most Japanese I've spoken to about swords had almost no interest in them. Some people are openly hostile to swords, as they represent the violence of Japan's warlike past, which many are ready to forget. Just in this small town I'm living in now, there is a family who has ground down the blades of heirlooms (rendering them worthless, in addition to useless) for just this reason. The true sword connoisseur will obviously hold all swords in some regard, and you could no doubt find someone in Japan willing to argue against me, but bidding on this sword you mentioned would not be the moral crime you seem to suggest it might be.

Just one man's opinion. I won't belabor the point (any further :))as I believe we should all go with our conscience. Just don't let someone guilt you when there is no need.

[geist_seig]

what was the name of the sword, that was used in kenshin "used to slay the rider and the horse with a single stroke" sorta a the appearance of the buster sword used by cloud in FF7..or did that even exist?

[animefan8780]

it may be just me but i know a lot about japanese swords and both muramasa blades and muramase blades were legendary. they were a symbol of power and status. Muramasa is a blade that is told to be cursed in that it cant noit be sheathed without drawing blood. to respond to the vid posting, that is y ur health goes down as u use it. also it was an demon sword that held great power but few could master it. The creators iof there swords were very powerful because the swords took a long time to make and were as good as 1000 acres of lands to trade. the reason the blades took so long to make is that they were all made a certain way so that the sharp edge was both delicate and functional. it was made so that u could fight with full strenght and the blade wouldnt break and yet it could still cut paper. The most famous muramasa sword was the most powerful. The warrior who used it knew the consiquences of loss. The sword endowed the weilder with great speed and strenght and made them all but invincible. The only thing was it had to steal asoul from a fallen enemy or it would take that of the wielder. (ps i kno i type a lot about it but i am tellin wat i kno. :sorry: ) The cursed blade was passed down throught the familys and it was rumored to have a demon sealed inside to prevent the constant use of the blade. But some abused the power and were consumed by the demonblade.

[Martialartsnovice]

Dont get me wrong, put as others have said earlier in this thread. The Murasame swords were considered to be cursed do to the Tokugawa Family misfortune with tese blades. These instances were commited by a person using a Murasame blade, though the blade doenst contain a demon inside, thats like saying Excalibur of Arthurs time contained the spirit of Merlin, after his death.

But anyway the way a sword was forged, had alot to do with the swords quality, but I can also see the value of European swords, for these were developed due to the changing military styles, but in Japan, the samurai and the military styles changed little over the centuries. As others have said, everything in Japan, remained quite unchanged until the Westernization.

It is sad, though that families in Japan are destroying older swords, made in past centuries. To me, these swords should be preserved in an heirloom sense, yes I can see a reason, to alter them, but to me they shouldnt grind off the edges. I could see the families securing them in small vaults or safes.

I too, am trying to become a sword collector. I want my collection to contain mostly Asian Blades, though I might collect a few European Blades. Ive see a few Middle Eastern Scimitars that seemed quite nice.

[NinjaEmperor]

what was the name of the sword, that was used in kenshin "used to slay the rider and the horse with a single stroke" sorta a the appearance of the buster sword used by cloud in FF7..or did that even exist?

The name of that sword was a Zanbatou and I belive it is also apears in Samurai Warriors Sengku Musou but under the name Zanba. However, it looks totaly diferent from what Sanosuke had. In that video game it looks like a long katana and is used by someone who looks like a girl a famouse retainer of Oda family Ranmaru Mori. Also, what intrigues me as well is that Nobuanga Oda uses a Muramasa sword there as well and it's his fourth weapon.

Is it historically accurate? Had the famouse demon lord ever used a Muramasa blade?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

斬馬刀(ZanbaTou) is a weapon used in a battlefield to early period of NANBOKUCYOU 〜 Muromachi 〜 Azuchimomoyama (for 1300-1550 years).
It is the sword which it used so that a foot soldier cuts a horse.
Full length of a sword is longer than a human whole body and is very heavy.
It is 180cm - 300cm full length
It is 2.5kg - 8.0kg weight
A sword blade is thick and is obstinate.
Actually, ZANBATOU was not used frequently.
The military horse was precious property.
It is desirable for it to be unhurt and to obtain a horse.
The attack to a horse is a taboo.
However, this ZanbaTou is a weapon to attack a horse
It breaks a taboo.
It is a disliked weapon.
ZanbaTou is used by common soldiers and employing mercenaries (a masterless samurai).
Famous military commander and samurais did not need to use ZanbaTou.
The big sword for cutting people is called "NODACHI" OR "ODACHI".

http://www.geocities.jp/bowen_dragon/taki/touken/nodati.htm

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~ssbohe/two_cavalierkiller.htm

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

MORIRANMARU is a page of ODANOBUNAGA.
It is not thought to have used ZanbaTou because he is a child of a daimyo.
A love sword of Nobunaga Oda is "備前国長船住光忠 / 一文字吉房(BIZEN NO KUNI OSAFUNE JYU MITUTADA / ICHIMONJIYOSHIFUSA)"

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Nobunaga Oda had a black vassal of "YASUKE".
He may have used "NODACHI".

http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~DD2/yasuke.htm

[Martialartsnovice]

Wow, a giant sword for hitting a horse, wouldnt make more sense to use a smaller katana or yari.

[XxSirenxX]

i just love how they use those names a lot in animes that have samurais like kenshin and samurai deeper kyo...kinda gives you some history...but then not really ^^;

i should really read on more of this sometime...

[Martialartsnovice]

Yeah,

Ive been told that many of the anime using samurai names distort the actual facts. But that why people watch cartoons of any kind. Its for entertainment

[Irashtugal]

I have studied Japanese and chinese history for a long while. I have been a long admirier of "The Blades of Legend"; however I believe if*Correct me if I am wrong* that Muramasa did not create just one sword. However, he created 3 swords. Yes, one sword was that of evil and the Tukogawa family. Spelling I am not so sure about. However, this blade was forged in 2146 times. It was suppose to have been non-existant to those times. However, before this sword was ever created, I believe he created a sword called Ten Chi Sei Wa. The Sword of Heaven and Earth's Peace and unity. IF I am correct on the translattion. Now, The other sword I heard was suppose to have been created after Rusamara created his sword of Jealousy. I am not sure though if this legend was true or not. For no one has ever heard of any other sword than the White CLoud Sword. However, I uncovered these legends through familes in Japan, and history books, of verious degrees. My main sources were ancient scrolls written in the kanji by the name of Master Tokogichi. I am curious however if any of these legends sound familiar with you? If so can you please email me at Wolfhound904@hotmail.com

Thanks
Irashtugal:okashii:

[tetsunihon]

Hey sorry I took so long 2 return back 2 u guys.... I bn bissy latey wit the ever changing wrk market......or shud I say unstable wrk market.

And then I gt hit by that huge hurrican Katrina. So now I am n California trying 2 make it.

To answer right quick..... I think I do remember muramasa crafted 3 swerds.... Each one for a family..... But I cnt remember their names at this time... But I will look n2 the names u provided and confirm ur findings......

Keep up tha good reserch and take care.... Oh by the way u guys out there reading this. I was n tha mall and passed a knide shop...wud u believe I saw a quad bladed dagger wit the two blades crossing each other 2 form a cross. The blades had a Raptor or Dragon edge design....this was a awesome blade and was only $300 something.... I'm looking n2 getting it soon.

Peace yall....

[btln701]

I have a question about masamune/muramasa swords.. As i was reading about them i began wondering if there were any masamune or muramasa swords still in circulation today. I tried to look for the answer myself, but came up with nothing.

One more question, might be kinda dumb i dont know... if there are any swords still in circulation today, i'd imagine they are pretty priceless, but if one were to sell them, about how much do you think they would go for? not that i could afford one, just kind of curious

Thanks!

[Martialartsnovice]

From what I understand. That these swords arent in circulation.

They might be in some very highly guarded private collections, though I think there in museums.

[gleeb2006]

Actually, just to clear things up, muramasa was not masamune's apprentice.
Masamune lived and worked in the 14-15th century, and muramasa lived and worked in the 16-17th century.

[gleeb2006]

masamune's swords today are considered japanese national treasures.

I don't think you'll be able to buy one on ebay...

There's also rumor of a muramasa blade somewhere in northern ca... probobly some rich yokel...

[tetsunihon]

Actually, just to clear things up, muramasa was not masamune's apprentice.
Masamune lived and worked in the 14-15th century, and muramasa lived and worked in the 16-17th century.

hey guys its been a long time. Ok ur quote above has 2 flaws: 1 someone has already refered that was at least 2 known Masamume's between 13 to 17 century, 2nd people live longer than 1 century since thats a 10 year period.

[pyros1]

One point I would like to add, is that SWORDS made by famous smiths OR OLD TRADITIONAL/FAMILY HEIRLOOM swords CANNOT be taken out of Japan. They will confiscate it if it happens. The only way to really take them out of the country is smuggling, but it is frowned upon. I would really not want to take a countries treasure from them for it is a piece of history that they would like to keep.

ALSO
masamune and Muramasa the 2 people that are so famous LIVED in different TIME PERIODS. AT NO POINT WERE THEY MASTER, APPRENTICE. Friendly neighbours or such. Maybe another 2 people coincidentally named the same met and were also swordsmiths. As such coincidences cannot be ruled out

[sempa]

wow, so it is true, so it is also tru that the, correct me if I'm wrong, blacksmiths guild in Japan, did wipe out there recognition for making high quality swords due to the fact that those inccidents happeb in the Tokugawa family? So general, based on what the book described not many people would know to much about there craftsmenship there after.
It also mentioned that Masamune, Muramasa's teacher, tempered swords of pure steel in a way to be considered a master, I wonder if its possible to discover his secrets if Masamune's craftsmenship created extremly sharp swords.

First, the smiths did not destroy their reputation. There are hundreds of working smiths to this day, even more during the millenium of civil wars. Muramasa was considered a brilliant smith in his day, but was also considered insane. This accounts for much of the image of their blades as being evil, given the way of thinking of historical Japan.

Second, yes the Tokugawa had problems with Muramasa, and issued banns on their people carrying them, and this went far in creating the legend of the Evil Muramasa. But, as should be obvious, many samurai were not part of the clan and could carry them, if they could get their hands on them. Muramasa was a skilled smith and his blades are of high quality, which was highly valued in a country at war.

Third, the traditions of forging a Japanese sword are still alive, as witnessed by the annual festival in Seki (a city in the province of Gifu, between Tokyo and Kyoto-not far from Sekigahara). It is possible to buy modern swords made with traditional techniques, so there is a great deal known about their craftsmanship.

Fourth, Masamune was not Muramasa's teacher. Apart from the fact that they trained and worked in different provinces, they lived in different centuries. If I am not mistaken, the earliest known work or Muramasa was dated 1501, while Masamune dates to the late 1200s and early 1300s. Masamune actually worked before the practice of signing and dating blades became tradition, so there are few works signed by this master. There are some, however.

There is a rumor of one Masamune blade (the Honjo Masamune) somewhere in Northern Calif. Story goes that it was part of the Imperial Family collection, and after WWII they gave it (and 13 other blades) to a police station. The following year the police gave the collection to an Americal soldier (Sgt or General or something) but there are no reports after that. California is an unsubstantiated rumor only.

Hope this helps.

[sempa]

斬馬刀(ZanbaTou) is a weapon used in a battlefield to early period of NANBOKUCYOU 〜 Muromachi 〜 Azuchimomoyama (for 1300-1550 years).
It is the sword which it used so that a foot soldier cuts a horse.
Full length of a sword is longer than a human whole body and is very heavy.
It is 180cm - 300cm full length
It is 2.5kg - 8.0kg weight
A sword blade is thick and is obstinate.
Actually, ZANBATOU was not used frequently.
The military horse was precious property.
It is desirable for it to be unhurt and to obtain a horse.
The attack to a horse is a taboo.
However, this ZanbaTou is a weapon to attack a horse
It breaks a taboo.
It is a disliked weapon.
ZanbaTou is used by common soldiers and employing mercenaries (a masterless samurai).
Famous military commander and samurais did not need to use ZanbaTou.
The big sword for cutting people is called "NODACHI" OR "ODACHI".

There is a ZANBATOU at a shop in Tokyo called Japan Sword (japanswordcojp) which is almost a museum in itself. They sell both new and old swords, but mostly antiques. They have three floors of sword related items, including many fittings and some armour. They have a Zanbatou and I have to say it is disturbingly huge. They told me it usually took two people to swing it (and the hilt was long enough and then some) and they would swing it once and then disgard it for direct fighting. It had a mount on the side so that it could be attached to the body while swinging. Crazy.

[sempa]

2nd people live longer than 1 century since thats a 10 year period.
For the record, few people live longer than a century as a century is 100 years, not 10. 10 years is a decade.

[firestarter]

You know, they're selling what is claimed to be an authentic Masamune tanto on ebay right now, with a certificate of authenticity... anyone got about $10,500 US? :)
Just thought y'all might be interested.

[tetsunihon]

wow thats cool....but i must wondr if its ebay thats selling the sword is it really authentic or just said its real and sharpened....

cant be to careful

And one more thing...i understand that their is different time periods of when masamune and muramasa lived but keep in mind i have the book which i found the information and who's to argue the book...and 2nd...isnt it obvious their were many samurai's and blacksmith who may have had the last name muramasa and masamune if they all had children???

keep in mind sometimes familys pass on down their business to their sons.

:wave: