Comfort Women

[thomas]

Yesterday the Tokyo High Court has rejected another appeal by a group of women that had been forced into prostitution by the Imperial Japanese Army before and during WWII. I would like to start this discussion to shed some light onto this controversial and long-debated issue. I will first post an article that had been published by the FT today and later try to elaborate on why that appeal had to be rejected according to International Law.

[thomas]

Japanese 'comfort women' lose

By Ken Hijino in Tokyo
Published: December 6 2000 17:59GMT | Last Updated: December 7 2000 12:38GMT

The Tokyo high court has rejected an appeal filed by 46 Filipinas demanding ･920m ($8.3m) in reparations from the Japanese government for being forced to provide sex to Imperial Army soldiers during the 1930s and 1940s.

The finding is in sharp contrast to the landmark settlement reached recently by Kajima, a construction company, and Chinese plaintiffs who had been demanding reparation for forced labour during the second world war, and is likely to fuel criticism of the Japanese government's handling of its responsibility for wartime aggression in Asia.

This is the second rejection of a suit brought by former comfort women - the 200,000 or so women who were allegedly forced into brothels to provide sex for Japanese soldiers during the war - in the past week and underlines the continued reluctance of Japanese courts to handle suits indicting the Japanese government for wartime crimes.

"In light of international law, individuals are not granted the right to demand compensation from the country that did them harm," said Masato Niimura, the presiding judge. The court added as grounds for rejecting the case that the period for compensation had already expired.

The two recent rulings come at a highly sensitive time, as a closely watched people's tribunal organised by international women and human right organisations is scheduled later in the week.

More than 70 surviving comfort women from seven countries, including Korea, North Korea, Taiwan, China, Indonesia, the Philippines, and the Netherlands - will testify to a group of international judges and prosecutors on crimes involving sexual violence committed against women by the Japanese military.

The indicted will include individual military officials, politicians, and the Showa emperor Hirohito. The judges are considering penalties that may involve demands to the Japanese government to pay reparations and compensation to the victims, said Patricia Viseur-Sellers, one of the chief prosecutors for the Women's International War Crimes Tribunal.

This will be, by far, the largest gathering of former comfort women, many of whom are elderly. Ten Filipina plaintiffs in the latest suit have died since the latest rejected suit was first filed in 1993.

Jan Ruff-O'Herne, one of the victims giving testimony in the people's tribunal, said, "They (the Japanese government) are all waiting for us to die, but this one will not die - I will continue to fight with other Asian comfort women. A country cannot continue without admitting the wrongs of its past."

Seven other cases involving comfort women are still in Japanese courts, but critics suggest that legal technicalities will make it difficult for a ruling in favour of the plaintiffs.

Copyright © Financial Times

[thomas]

The following article was taken from New Jersey Online (http://www.nj.com).

Japanese court says no need to compensate sex slaves

By Mari Yamaguchi
3/29/01 7:32 AM

TOKYO (AP) -- An appeals court Thursday said the Japanese government need not pay three Korean women compensation for forcing them into wartime sexual slavery as no serious constitutional violations occurred.

The Hiroshima High Court overturned a 1998 district court ruling that ordered the government to pay a total of $7,260 to the women who were forced to provide sex to Japanese soldiers during World War II.

The three women and seven people forced into slave labor filed a lawsuit with the Yamaguchi District Court in western Japan in 1992, seeking about $3.1 million in official compensation. They also demanded the government's official apology. One of the women has since died.

The plaintiffs appealed the ruling, saying the amount of compensation was too small. The government also appealed, refusing to pay compensation.

The two women said they were forced to provide sex to Japanese soldiers in Taiwan and the Chinese city of Shanghai.

In the original 1998 ruling, the Shimonoseki Branch of the Yamaguchi District Court said the Japanese government has failed to enact laws to accommodate the payment of compensation to sex slaves.

The women and their supporters hailed the ruling as a landmark decision.

On Thursday, however, presiding judge Toshiaki Kawanami said abducting the women to use them as forced laborers and sex slaves was not a serious constitutional violation.

Tokyo has acknowledged that its wartime army set up brothels and forced thousands of Koreans into military service, but it has refused to pay direct, or official compensation to individuals.

Historians say as many as 200,000 women, mostly Koreans but also Filipinos, Chinese and Dutch, were forced into sexual slavery during World War II.

Copyright ｩ AP & NJO

[Mattanza]

after a long absence,i am coming again in this forum,and i can see it is coolest than before!
I was very interested in your issue and i can say you that:
In europe i guess it is happened the same,with germans ruling allover....but no one speack about it!
We are a little sexophobic,due to our religion,i guess it is coz of this cultural lack.

[thomas]

Hi Mattanza,

nice to have you back on the forum!
:)

Back to the topic: while the German army committed the most horrible (war) crimes in WWII there was no institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army. It is sad to see that no post-war administration in Japan took over the slightest bit of responsibilty and agreed to compensate former "comfort women". Just read the verdicts quoted below...

[moyashi]

Hmmm I thought the Japanese brigade (forgot which number) was much worse than the German's in Mongolia.

I bet Japan will let this issue ride out hoping by the time they will apologize that all the women will have passed away.

I hate to say this but if Japan pays now they'll probably be hit by other groups therefore the total payments will increase.

I have never really understood why japan is so determined to not apologize for what happened but I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with that Japan was just imitating all the previous colonial period countries. Who too never apologized for all the autrocities that happened in Africa and through out Asia.

[moyashi]

Wait, I think I get it.

Nobody is willing to take responsibility for what they weren't involved in.

Normally, the head of a company will get fired when something goes wrong in a sense taking full blame and probably a healthy golden parachute along at the same time.

So if Japan apologizes the Prime Minister and heads of the military would disappear. ooops, Japan doesn't have a military so that would mean the Prime Minister. Gee, would Prime Minister Koizumi take this blame. I doubt it.

So, we have the wonderful hide the blame or pass the blame syndrome occuring.

[thomas]

Hm, taking over public functions also involves taking over responsibility for things that have happened in the past. As the events discussed here can hardly be blamed on the acting prime minister there'd be no reason for Koizumi to step down in case of an apology. Koizumi represents the nation, so it would be upon him to take such a step.

When the former German chancellor Willy Brandt kneeled down and apologized to the Polish people in 1970 nobody demanded his resignation. He wasn't personally involved in any Wehrmacht atrocities, but he represented Germany. A Japanese act of similiar importance has yet to come.

Why is it so hard for Japanese to get down on their knees and ask for forgiveness, once and for all? We're talking about symbolic value here (and yes, it means that payments would increase). Is it actually such a shame to admit a fault?

I'm under the impression that many Japanese still don't acknowledge Japan's role in WWII, hence no feeling of guilt and responsibility as for instance in Germany's case ("denazification"). Was MacArthur, already involved in the upcoming Cold War, too lenient towards Japan's ruling class?

Got carried away, sorry...
;)

[Mattanza]

Well i have thought a little on yuor lasr words thomas...i have an answer to yuor question,i could be right maybe.
i think 1970(when germans aoplogized for their crimes) was a different period,after 1985(end of cold war)the behaviour of our rich governaments is changed,now it is not time for remorses
it is not time to apologize,now it is time to go on war against terrorism my dear,and the war is not a dirty thing now too.
all this concepts spread all over by our govs,lead probably
our govs to avoid public shame on an early past war.
i hope with my bad english to be able to express myself properly.

[moyashi]

Mattanza, don't worry about your English. Even those of who are native speakers write horribly :)

@ apology

I totally think with no doubt that Japan should finally end this whole problem and just apologize. Even if it means taking out front page stories in all the newspapers of the world (well, the countries affect only would be bad either)

We have an interesting something going on here. Normally, Japanese apologize profusely even when they win. But for the war .... nada, nil, nu'tin.

Japan missed thier window of oppurtunity which Germany rightfully used. And Like Mattanza said ever since the cold war the other countries are starting to feel differently about what happened 50+ years ago.

Let's open this up a but more too. The genreal populace of Japan has no clue of what really happened in WWII, why it started, where their soliders went, why the [to-ko-tai] scacraficied themselves as kamikaze.

So, up-to and during the war you have a nation of people who were raised to follow thier emperor's orders (well, those in power at least) and throughly brainwashed that they were winning until the they heard the emperor's voice for the first time in history.

Education doesn't help either since textbooks have the war history so watered down that nobody really knows what happened compared to the Koreans who seem to have emobodied this history into their daily lives.

The war itself was basically private wars for the Navy and Army who acted basically seperately of each other with seperate agendas. The Zaibatsu [conglomerate corporations ... essentially] pushed for it too saying that Japan is a country of no natural resources. So, essentially, every form of power holding figure looked up to the countries who were busy colonizing the world up to WWI figured they had a right to the same.

I'm going to push this a little here. Did France ever apologize to England for occupying their Islands for what close to 300 years? Or did France and Napolean apologoze to Europe? Have the Americans given back to the Indians their land? Ok, I'm stretching things here but I want to put a little perspective here? I'm not sure how much of pre-WWI history Japan did know.

So, I bet it'll take more than just world pressure for an apology. Korea is pushing for the right thing. A change in how education is being presented currently. Korea, I think, wants Japan to write about all the wrongs they did. That's a little tough since I bet no country is willing to say they were 100% wrong, but it's a good push in the right direction.

Recently, on a TV program I was watching where a band made up of several different people from Asia were sent out to travel different countries in order to create a song. The Japanese boy while in Indonesia meet a 80 year old lady and learned from her what really happened at the hands of the Imperial Army during the War. He cried and cried. He just didn't know.

But, another new challenge is facing the education of the people about the war. Japan has just started a [yutori kyoiku] (simplified eductation) system. The material that needs to be studied for university has been cut by 30%.

Let's not forget that Japan was bombed twice too. I wonder how much this also has to do with the no-apology stance.

I'm just trying to shed a little light on the situation and why it isn't just a simply thing to say,"sorry" for the Japanese. IF more of populace knew about what had happened I'm sure there would be change in this stubborness about apologizing.

[shintemaster]

Well, so many different points to look into here so forgive me if I'm long winded...

@ Moyashi "Hmmm I thought the Japanese brigade (forgot which number) was much worse than the German's in Mongolia."

I would guess that you are referring to the so-called Unit 731 here. They committed some truly atrocious acts as 'research' some of which could not even pretend to be such a thing. Arguing levels of which was worse here seems pedantic, yet the sheer scale and organisation of German extermination places it in a unique place in history.

"So if Japan apologizes the Prime Minister and heads of the military would disappear. ooops, Japan doesn't have a military so that would mean the Prime Minister"

I believe you may be alluding most subtly to the fact of Japan's 'non-existent' military which has the second largest non-existent military budget in the world, only the U.S. spends more money. I believe that Japan's non-existent military is at present ranked about sixth as far as force strength.

"The war itself was basically private wars for the Navy and Army who acted basically seperately of each other with seperate agendas."

On this one I'm not exactly in agreement. The army, in Manchuria especially may have initiated certain incidents with an eye towards its own power, however to say that the army and navy were somehow running seperately from the nation I don't believe is justified. ANY war conducted with the use of a civilian based force must necessarily be involved with its populace. There were pressures, quotas and other incentives however the general populace was involved in the war to a certain extant.

In my (limited) experience politicians tend to be like children. They must be forced to apologise. The fact that individuals alive today were not directly responsible does not mitigate the responsibilty to admit past wrongs. All countries should attempt to do the same. This does not mean an indictment of that countries people. On the contrary I believe that admitting and understanding a states part in pain only strengthens the country involved as well as relations with other nations.

On a side note I think that the general war amnesia of Japanese citizens is related to and indicative of the education system in general. There are serious problems and will continue to be such until the education system undertakes some REAL reforms. I'm not necessarily a fan of education systems in many countries I've seen however Japan's system ranks very high on the list of countries that stifle questioning and true curiosity. As someone considering becoming a father with a Japanese wife I could not at the present put a child through that system.

[redthirteen]

IMHO I don't think it is as easy as a simple apology. In order for pople to wish to apologize for anything they must first come to terms with it. And from what I understand, they simply have not or even think that what they've done was wrong.

Also I've heard that any sort of blemish or blunder involving Japan has been removed from their history books in schools. Go figure.

Wasn't it General Macarthur that said you have to treat the Japanese like spoiled children, then everything makes sense? Hohum:/

[shintemaster]

Yes well, General MacArthur was not necessarily the most enlightened chap in history but...
I think the main problem with Japanese war guilt is just that, the lack of questioning and self-initiated investigation into the war. There are some Japanese who do take an active interest in this area but they are a hopelessly outnumbered minority. Dissapointing, and the recent history of Japan with regard to racial issues does not incline one to be optimistic...

choose again

[thomas]

I don't think that the Germans would have started to question and to investigate their own role in WWII without American pressure and denazification. The Japanese have been spared the same fate: they were indeed treated like spoiled children, first scolded, then hugged. Even the "bullies" were forgiven (think of Unit 731: none of its commanders or scientists were held responsible for their savageries, their research was even taken over by the Americans, the Cold War justified everything).

Bottom line: while the Germans were thoroughly reeducated after the war, the Japanese weren't forced to reflect on their past (thus no interest in war history, no feeling of guilt or responsibility towards former victims and no apologies).

[thomas]

There was this report on a former Unit 731 member on JT today:

Ex-Unit 731 member spreads truth as his apology

=> http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=226219

It's a pity that JT relies so much on Kyodo News.

[Jent]

That's kinda like people are going to court in America and demanding compernsation for their ancestors being slaves. I really don't see how it's fair to charge someone else for something that they didn't do.

[bossel]

That's kinda like people are going to court in America and demanding compernsation for their ancestors being slaves. I really don't see how it's fair to charge someone else for something that they didn't do.
You missed the point that some of the comfort women are still alive. Anyway, even if the actual victim already died, if you as a direct descendent can prove that as a result of their suffering you also suffered, you might qualify for compensation as well.

[Jent]

You missed the point that some of the comfort women are still alive. Anyway, even if the actual victim already died, if you as a direct descendent can prove that as a result of their suffering you also suffered, you might qualify for compensation as well.


Which makes very little sense to me.

But from what I hear the Japanese yakuza still are selling woman through sex trade. Latina women, if I remember correctly.

[sabro]

American History books don't try to hide slavery. Although no compensation was ever paid for slavery, Japanese Americans who survived internment camps in the US recieved official appologies and reparations for that action. You did have to be alive to get the cash, though.

[sennen]

Back to the topic: while the German army committed the most horrible (war) crimes in WWII there was no institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army. It is sad to see that no post-war administration in Japan took over the slightest bit of responsibilty and agreed to compensate former "comfort women". Just read the verdicts quoted below...

Do you have information on any persuasive evidence of institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army?

Almost all armies are accompanied by comfort women. Of course, in vietnam war, too. Propably, also in Iraq, I presume.

Even today, there are many coutries in which prostitution is legal. (see http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/whatcountrieslegal.html, which says that Prostitution is LEGAL (with some restrictions that aren't that bad) in Canada, most all of Europe including England, France, Wales, Denmark, etc., most of South America including most of Mexico (often in special zones), Israel (Tel Aviv known as the brothel capital of the world), Australia, and many other countries).

Further, comfort women accomapnying the Imerial Japanese Army were no sex slaves. They are paid a lot of money. They were not hunted or forced to sell sex by the Imperial Army. In war, comfort women are necessary evil. As to connection to the the Imperial Army, they cooperated with the police and only gave instructions to citizen prostitute empolyers to stop recruiting prostitutes in an almost kidnap-like or hunting like manner.

This prolem of comfort women was started based on a trumped-up book published in 1983. The book was cooked up by Seiji Yoshida, who was found to be a professional liar. The Asahi Shimbun, most influential (left-biased) paper in Japan, started campaign based on the book in 1991. In this book, he wrote that he had hunted comfort women in Korea. But later, he admited that he invetned stories to sell the book. See http://www1.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~asakyu/no5.html (in Japanese).

[sennen]

...They are paid a lot of money.
...
As to connection to the the Imperial Army, they cooperated with the police and only gave instructions to citizen prostitute empolyers to stop recruiting prostitutes in an almost kidnap-like or hunting like manner.


Corrections:

...They were paid a lot of money.
...
As to connection to the the Imperial Army, the Imperial Army cooperated with the police and only gave instructions to citizen prostitute empolyers to stop recruiting prostitutes in an almost kidnap-like or hunting like manner.

[bossel]

Oh nice, another revisionist. Not that I think it's any use to argue with you, but here we go...

Do you have information on any persuasive evidence of institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army?
Evidence is obviously persuasive enough for the Coomaraswamy report to the UN (http://www.comfort-women.org/coomaras.htm) & an international commission of jurists (http://www.comfort-women.org/Unfinished.htm).

Almost all armies are accompanied by comfort women. Of course, in vietnam war, too. Propably, also in Iraq, I presume.
I smell another smoke screen.
Not "almost all armies" have such an elaborate system of sex slavery, though.

Even today, there are many coutries in which prostitution is legal.
More smoke.
Illegal prostitution is a completely different issue.

For the rest of your revisionist crap, I refer you to this thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73) in which we dealt with the issue quite extensively (thanks to your buddy Urecco).

[Shibuyaexpat]

"It's deja vu all over again" - Yogi Berra. :p

[Kionon]

I've stated this before. I simply do not feel that "Japan" has anything to answer for. Japan is a group of islands. Land. With artificially created borders by the people living there.

To insist that the Prime Minister, or the Government, or Katzuhito (spelling)? Or anyone else need apologize for actions they did not commit is utterly ridiculous. Blame them for what they did, if you can prove it. It is the same, as was previously mentioned, as someone blaming me for slavery because I am a White American and asking me to pay reperations, via my taxes, because of it. Well, I'm a second generation Irish American, my family wasn't even here, let alone owning slaves. That concept, too, is clearly ridiculous.

No, what should happen is that we need to find the perps. If these women were forced into sex, then they were raped. Rapists should be punished for their crimes. Find the rapists, or those that authorized the rapes, put them on trial in criminal court, and then put them in civil court. To say that the PM or any of the current Japanese elite are responsible just because they represent the government is stupid.

The mistake here was that the US or the Japanese did not put those rapists on trial to begin with. If that can be proven, then THAT is what needs to be argued, and then the government is at fault. The women should not be claiming the government caused them to be raped, rather they should be claiming that there was a miscarriage of justice when the government failed to file charges against those that did. And if you can argue that, then the US is also to blame, because we had the power and chose not to use it.

Yeah, and I'd like to see you get President Bush to apologize because the US didn't use that power. Not going to happen, even if it should.

[sennen]

Evidence is obviously persuasive enough for the Coomaraswamy report to the UN (http://www.comfort-women.org/coomaras.htm) & an international commission of jurists (http://www.comfort-women.org/Unfinished.htm).).

The report recites the book cooked up by Yoshida Seiji, the professionla liar who brought about this problem, at paragraphs 29 and 40, contents of which were admitted by the liar to be false. Can such a roughly-made prejudiced report be reliable?


I smell another smoke screen.
Not "almost all armies" have such an elaborate system of sex slavery, though.


I smell another fire on purose.
No such slavery. Due to poverty, in those days, some poverty-stricken parents sold their daughters to recruiters, because money paid as an advance was so much (reportedly amounting to e.g.a yearly salary of a major general of the army). Sad stories. But, only in this sense, they were forced to sell sex against their will. Further, they were paid much money so that they could complete the payment of their debt in half a year or so. Reportedly, the confort women during the war had a saving of one or twofold of the advance on average.

[lexico]

Sennen-san, don't fight it. It's a lost cause for you.
The more you fight it, the greater the harm.
There's brimstone added on top of your head with your every attempt at falsification. The sin of dishonesty will follow you to your grave. :(

[lexico]

I've stated this before. I simply do not feel that "Japan" has anything to answer for. Japan is a group of islands. Land. With artificially created borders by the people living there.

To insist that the Prime Minister, or the Government, or Katzuhito (spelling)? Or anyone else need apologize for actions they did not commit is utterly ridiculous. Blame them for what they did, if you can prove it.I don't see what you are trying to say. Are you protesting the modern definition of Japanese territory with unresolved problems such as the Meiji Annexation of Ainu Moshiri aka Hokkaido of 1869 or the Meiji Annexation of the Kingdom of Ryukyu in 1879 ? The rest is being handled by historians so there's no need for you to worry. In legal terms an individual cannot be charged for crimes committed by one's ancestors, but a nation by definition is the continuation of it's previous governments. In conclusion as long as the national identity is preserved there is no limit to liability. By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D. It is the same, as was previously mentioned, as someone blaming me for slavery because I am a White American and asking me to pay reperations, via my taxes, because of it. Well, I'm a second generation Irish American, my family wasn't even here, let alone owning slaves. That concept, too, is clearly ridiculous.False analogy. This is defined as 'comparing two things with only some similarities but also with significant differences that are ignored for the sake of this particular argument.' Just for an example, most Japanese did not come from Ireland one generation back, or did they ? :DNo, what should happen is that we need to find the perps. If these women were forced into sex, then they were raped. Rapists should be punished for their crimes. Find the rapists, or those that authorized the rapes, put them on trial in criminal court, and then put them in civil court. To say that the PM or any of the current Japanese elite are responsible just because they represent the government is stupid.Where were you in 1945 ? Those perps are mostly dead by now, so sadly your idea of justice has little hope to be realized. What can be done is honest, unconditional, full acceptance of the war crimes and other damages afflicted upon victims of Imprerial Japan. Nonacceptance is clearly the wide path to forceful justice in the future.The mistake here was that the US or the Japanese did not put those rapists on trial to begin with. If that can be proven, then THAT is what needs to be argued, and then the government is at fault. The women should not be claiming the government caused them to be raped, rather they should be claiming that there was a miscarriage of justice when the government failed to file charges against those that did. And if you can argue that, then the US is also to blame, because we had the power and chose not to use it.Again too late for that. Japan cannot expect a nudge from the US to help it realize. It should fairly and squarely face the consequences of its past actions willingly while it still has a chance.

[sennen]

Sennen-san, don't fight it. It's a lost cause for you.
The more you fight it, the greater the harm.
There's brimstone added on top of your head with your every attempt at falsification. The sin of dishonesty will follow you to your grave. :(
How about your sin of prejudice? Your sin of insolence calling the other party in debate dishonest without indicating any ground or evidence?. Do you support the professional liar only because he is Japanese?

I am sorry for you that you live in a country protected from books against your government's policy. Have you read the book I recommended you in a thread other than this? The book "Excuse for Pro-Japanese" by Kim Wansop seems to be banned in Korea. I wish you could gain access to books which enable you to grasp the history of your country more objectively.

_______________________________________
Chuku-chuku-chins: writers who are not allowed to read books that are against their government policy.

[sabro]

Interesting- The accounts of thousands of "comfort women" of their ordeal goes way beyond rape and forced prostitution. It was kidnapping followed by dozens of rapes per day, along with beatings, starvation, and drug addiction. It lasted for years. For many it ended in death due to disease, malnutrition, untreated injury, botched abortion, or abandonment when the Army left the area. The documentary evidence is solid, as are the accounts of thousands of these women and thousands of former soldiers. Because it was part of an organized government plan, the Japanese government should answer for it. It is an unprecedented and unparalleled war crime simply based on its scale if not its inhumanity. The scant recognition and shallow appologies offered by the government so far have encouraged the revisionist drivel like we have been subjected to on this forum. Japan created a nightmarish hell for tens of thousands of women and girls, and now some are attempting to minimize it, make light of it, or erase it all together. It makes me very sad.

[pipokun]

To Lexico
It is, indeed, nice to see you not like a NAVER kid. This isn't my sarcasm at all. Dialogues should be the only way to know each others.

In legal terms an individual cannot be charged for crimes committed by one's ancestors, but a nation by definition is the continuation of it's previous governments. In conclusion as long as the national identity is preserved there is no limit to liability. By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Quod Eram Demonstrandum.

You mean Korean people are still eligible to file a lawsuit against J govenment?
If so, I am happy if you would share your opinion. And if possible, could you tell me your first-hand updates upon the secret diplomatic documents of the normalization talks in your country.

[sennen]

Interesting- The accounts of thousands of "comfort women" of their ordeal goes way beyond rape and forced prostitution. ....
The documentary evidence is solid, as are the accounts of thousands of these women and thousands of former soldiers.


Even the report adopted by United Nations is based on the book published by the professional liar, Seiji Yoshida. My position is based reports on first-hand research carried out in Korea, particularly on attestants. What matters is the truth or fact on which the thousand books are based. Please mention the title of the book which you think most trustworthy and contains references to first-hand evidence or reliable resources of information, preferably one in Japanese which I can read through in a short time. Then, I might be informed otherwise.

[Kionon]

I don't see what you are trying to say. Are you protesting the modern definition of Japanese territory with unresolved problems such as the Meiji Annexation of Ainu Moshiri aka Hokkaido of 1869 or the Meiji Annexation of the Kingdom of Ryukyu in 1879 ? The rest is being handled by historians so there's no need for you to worry. In legal terms an individual cannot be charged for crimes committed by one's ancestors, but a nation by definition is the continuation of it's previous governments. In conclusion as long as the national identity is preserved there is no limit to liability. By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Quod Eram Demonstrandum.

I'm not arguing anyting about turn of the century Japan. That has nothing to do with my argument.

And I simply disagree with you that modern day Japan is the same nation as Imperial Japan. That simply isn't so. There was a reason for the war and for the occupation by the allies. We destroyed Imperial Japan and in its place set up a constitutional monarcy with an active parliament and a distinct lack of strong military leaders. You and I will not agree that the current government of Japan is responsible for unpaid dues by Imperial Japan, because I will never agree that one descended from the other. At least not peacably and in the way we we normally recognize transfers of power in most nations.

False analogy. This is defined as 'comparing two things with only some similarities but also with significant differences that are ignored for the sake of this particular argument.' Just for an example, most Japanese did not come from Ireland one generation back, or did they ? :D

No, it isn't. You calling it a false analogy fits your definition, since you ingnored my main point to look at one small part. Let me clear it up. Most of the individuals in Japan are not responsible for the actions of those that came before. Many (and I'll get to this with you next question) weren't even born. My point is that, at least in America, it is wrong to criminalize someone for the actions of their relatives. Did I have slave owning relatives? Maybe, hard to know. Probably distantly. Certainly not my immediate family. And even if so, can you prove I, not my relatives, but I personally profited from it? I doubt it. Stop treating the Japanese as "The Japanese" start treating them like individuals.

Where were you in 1945 ? Those perps are mostly dead by now, so sadly your idea of justice has little hope to be realized. What can be done is honest, unconditional, full acceptance of the war crimes and other damages afflicted upon victims of Imprerial Japan. Nonacceptance is clearly the wide path to forceful justice in the future.Again too late for that. Japan cannot expect a nudge from the US to help it realize. It should fairly and squarely face the consequences of its past actions willingly while it still has a chance.

I wasn't born, just like most of the Japanese population. I'm sure the perps are dead by now, and realize that bringing them to justice has little possibility to succeed. That doesn't change the fact that a properly worded suit could prove that the NEW Japanese government (the only one I recognize) has something to answer for when it failed to try the perps before they died. I support that attempt, just as I would support it in the states. If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.

[kirei_na_me]

I wasn't born, just like most of the Japanese population. I'm sure the perps are dead by now, and realize that bringing them to justice has little possibility to succeed. That doesn't change the fact that a properly worded suit could prove that the NEW Japanese government (the only one I recognize) has something to answer for when it failed to try the perps before they died. I support that attempt, just as I would support it in the states. If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.

Exactly...I mean exactly what I wanted to say.

[dreamer]

If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.

Well...it's difficult to forget what has been done :/
My mother always tell me about how a part of my family has been slaughtered by japanese during the 2nd world war, and each time there's an article in the newspaper where "a chinese girl has been murdered in Japan" or something like that she brings back the topic...

What I mean is that if for me who was born in another country, I hear this thing so often from my family, then there's no wonder why hatred is so persistent...
Personnaly I agree with the fact that you're not guilty for what your ancestors have done, but as long as the victims continue to bear a grudge like that, and even if the japanese government is trying to make up for Japan's past mistakes, it's not gonna work...

[bossel]

The report recites the book cooked up by Yoshida Seiji, the professionla liar who brought about this problem, at paragraphs 29 and 40, contents of which were admitted by the liar to be false. Can such a roughly-made prejudiced report be reliable?
A professional liar? Wow!
But even if your allegations were true this is only a minor part of the whole report. As usual revisionists take minor details which are not quite as consistent as they think is necessary to discredit the whole.

Reportedly, the confort women during the war had a saving of one or twofold of the advance on average.
Which reports?

Even the report adopted by United Nations is based on the book published by the professional liar, Seiji Yoshida.
Have you actually read the report? There is much more in it than Yoshida's memoirs.

[lexico]

Foreword: Please comment on what I said only. I defined the continuation of governmental responsibilty but here you shift my reference to Japanese governments to Japanese individuals. Would you call that rational ?

I'm not arguing anyting about turn of the century Japan. That has nothing to do with my argument.

And I simply disagree with you that modern day Japan is the same nation as Imperial Japan. That simply isn't so. There was a reason for the war and for the occupation by the allies. We destroyed Imperial Japan and in its place set up a constitutional monarcy with an active parliament and a distinct lack of strong military leaders. You and I will not agree that the current government of Japan is responsible for unpaid dues by Imperial Japan, because I will never agree that one descended from the other. At least not peacably and in the way we we normally recognize transfers of power in most nations.You are saying that the national identify first forged during the Meji years has been discontinued in 1945 ? Then why did Germany go to pains to acknowledge, educate, apologize, and to make reparations ? For nothing ? Where do you get this wild idea ? You seem to be in denial; love for Japanese studies does not require defending modern Japan's interests.No, it isn't. You calling it a false analogy fits your definition, since you ingnored my main point to look at one small part. Let me clear it up. Most of the individuals in Japan are not responsible for the actions of those that came before. Many (and I'll get to this with you next question) weren't even born. My point is that, at least in America, it is wrong to criminalize someone for the actions of their relatives. Did I have slave owning relatives? Maybe, hard to know. Probably distantly. Certainly not my immediate family. And even if so, can you prove I, not my relatives, but I personally profited from it? I doubt it. Stop treating the Japanese as "The Japanese" start treating them like individuals.Please read first paragraph. You're forced logic might have worked if Japan renounced it Japanese identity which never happened AFAIK. Not so, as you know. Please don't beg for repetition by reading my first paragraph closely and literally.I wasn't born, just like most of the Japanese population. I'm sure the perps are dead by now, and realize that bringing them to justice has little possibility to succeed. That doesn't change the fact that a properly worded suit could prove that the NEW Japanese government (the only one I recognize) has something to answer for when it failed to try the perps before they died. I support that attempt, just as I would support it in the states. If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.So repeating your statement "It's just wrong" makes it so ? Forced logic again. Denial has become an international epidemic. The current gov. is guilty of denial of Imperial Japan's action. Please read closely what people write !

[Kionon]

Foreword: Please comment on what I said only. I defined the continuation of governmental responsibilty but here you shift my reference to Japanese governments to Japanese individuals. Would you call that rational?

I did only comment on what you said. I also clearly stated we would not agree because I do not believe in the continuation of governmental responsibility because current Japan is NOT Imperial Japan. If you do not agree with me there, then there is no point in continuing discussion, but I had issues with other things you stated, and so I countered your arguments. As for Japanese individuals, they would be the ones made to pay if reperations were paid out. A government is supported by taxes. You were the one to bring up Meiji era stuff, which I still don't get what that has to do with anything.

You are saying that the national identify first forged during the Meji years has been discontinued in 1945 ? Then why did Germany go to pains to acknowledge, educate, apologize, and to make reparations ? For nothing ? Where do you get this wild idea ? You seem to be in denial; love for Japanese studies does not require defending modern Japan's interests.

Imperial Japan was discontinued in 1945. That government fell and was replaced by force. It does not continue into the present. You can argue sociological ramifications of imperialist thought all you want, that it is not my argument. My argument is that Imperial Japan no longer exists, and it certainly isn't the current Japanese Government reconstituted.

What Germany did was up to Germany. It chose its actions as a free government. It did not have to. It was not Nazi Germany. Actually, in some sense I think Germany has gone too far in banning certain types of speech action, etc, but that is another story. And that is not to say I believe Germany was wrong to acknowledge or apologize. Making reperations was also probably dependent on a feeling of the entire post-war culture. I'd need to check my facts, but I believe a good majority of German people probably chose such an action.

Germany and Japan are not the same. And I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of Japan's apologies. I know that Prime Minister Koizumi has apologized just this month, but I still do not think he has to do so.

As to your last couple of sentences about me being in denial or in protecting Japanese interests, I won't even dignify it with a defense. Those are personally insulting allegations you have no proof of. I'd prefer you keep your arguments from becoming personal.

Please read first paragraph. You're forced logic might have worked if Japan renounced it Japanese identity which never happened AFAIK. Not so, as you know. Please don't beg for repetition by reading my first paragraph closely and literally.

Now you're just ignoring me. Current Japan is not Imperial Japan. I do not feel the identity is the same. How could it be? And it seems you claim that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. I find that false. Too much has happened in the world for that to be true. How many times must I make that point?

So repeating your statement "It's just wrong" makes it so ? Forced logic again. Denial has become an international epidemic. The current gov. is guilty of denial of Imperial Japan's action. Please read closely what people write !

No, it's an affirmation of my opinion, that I have argued logically and rationally. And others have agreed with to boot. I am not denying Imperial Japan's atrocities. Quite the opposite. I am denying that the current government is some kind of reincarnation of Imperial Japan and that they must atone for the actions of a government that was not under their control. Honestly, Imperial Japan DID atone- by beaing dfeated in battle by the United States and her allies. We crushed them to the point of dropping two atomic bombs and killing millions, including women and children, yet we have not been asked to apologize.

I'll say it as clear as I possibly can: Current Japan must atone for not doing enough to redress what they had the power to redress during the transitional period in the middle of the 20th century, if that can be proven in a court of law. Current Japan is NOT responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. Imperial Japan does not exist.

[sabro]

Senen- we've done this before. I gave sources, did some research- it was quite an education, but suffice it to say that the sources were numerous, substantial and quite verifiable. You'll have to look backwards on the thread though, because I am too tired tonight to repeat them.

[lexico]

Why the Meiji question ? It was introduced because you made a cryptic statement abaout Japan being nothing more than the artificially delineated islands and land. I raised a legitimate question regarding your statement, remember ? "Are you protesting Japanese expansionism that started in the Meiji era ? Hokkaido annexed 1869, Okianawa/Ryukyu annexed 1879."
current Japan is NOT Imperial Japan. If you do not agree with me there, then there is no point in continuing discussion, but I had issues with other things you stated, and so I countered your arguments. I do agree. The two governments in question are not identical, but for the latter to be regocnized as a legitimate Japanese govenernment, it has to accept unpaid dues and responsibilities, if not guilt of sin of perpetrating the crime itself. This fine yet easily confused distinction is eluciadated in Takahashi Tetsuya's 高橋哲哉 Demanding Postwar Responsibility Sengo sekininron 戰後責任論, Kondasha, 1999.
As for Japanese individuals, they would be the ones made to pay if reperations were paid out. A government is supported by taxes. So it's about tax money. I feel rather offended by your comparison with US slavery and your unwillingness to any reparation because you had nothing to do with US slavery. Becaue the analogy is so far fetched I find it hard to accept your argumnent as valid in our discussion.

You were the one to bring up Meiji era stuff, which I still don't get what that has to do with anything.That's when it all got started, the distortion of history as an ideological tool of expansion which continues today in like format and spirit. If you do not see the ghosts of the Meji era working thru the years of 'turmoil,' resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, resulting in the vanishing of races, racial identities, or both, under the guidance of western powers such as the US and Russia, you do not understand what you are talking about. The very land disputes Japan HAS been creating since 1952 are exactly the ones Japan started by forceful taking in the eraly Meiji years.Imperial Japan was discontinued in 1945. That government fell and was replaced by force. It does not continue into the present. You can argue sociological ramifications of imperialist thought all you want, that it is not my argument. My argument is that Imperial Japan no longer exists, and it certainly isn't the current Japanese Government reconstituted.You don't see my point. War crimes are the very ramifications you are making slight of. They just started earlier the way I see it.What Germany did was up to Germany. It chose its actions as a free government. It did not have to. It was not Nazi Germany. Actually, in some sense I think Germany has gone too far in banning certain types of speech action, etc, but that is another story. And that is not to say I believe Germany was wrong to acknowledge or apologize. Making reperations was also probably dependent on a feeling of the entire post-war culture. I'd need to check my facts, but I believe a good majority of German people probably chose such an action.

Germany and Japan are not the same. And I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of Japan's apologies. I know that Prime Minister Koizumi has apologized just this month, but I still do not think he has to do so.

As to your last couple of sentences about me being in denial or in protecting Japanese interests, I won't even dignify it with a defense. Those are personally insulting allegations you have no proof of. I'd prefer you keep your arguments from becoming personal. Well you are entitled to your views; just out of curiosity does yor view reflect the view of the US navy or is it personal ? Might I add that there are more ways to look at the problem of sengo sekininron than thru the sole view of US interest ?
Now you're just ignoring me. Current Japan is not Imperial Japan. I do not feel the identity is the same. How could it be? And it seems you claim that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. I find that false. Too much has happened in the world for that to be true. How many times must I make that point?I feel I'm being ignored, Kionon. :D
True, current Japan is not Imperial Japan. And again true that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. If you fail to see the inner workings of expansionism which continues today, then I understand why you are making such statements.No, it's an affirmation of my opinion, that I have argued logically and rationally. And others have agreed with to boot. I am not denying Imperial Japan's atrocities. Quite the opposite. I am denying that the current government is some kind of reincarnation of Imperial Japan and that they must atone for the actions of a government that was not under their control. Honestly, Imperial Japan DID atone - by beaing dfeated in battle by the United States and her allies. We crushed them to the point of dropping two atomic bombs and killing millions, including women and children, yet we have not been asked to apologize.Losing a war hardly, hardly atones for anything. You seem to attach to much value on military prowess aka victory/defeat. That was only the beginning, a chance to make up with the past, which regrettably was overlooked for the conveniences and national interests pursued in the name of cold war.I'll say it as clear as I possibly can: Current Japan must atone for not doing enough to redress what they had the power to redress during the transitional period in the middle of the 20th century, if that can be proven in a court of law.Yes, that's one way of dealing with the problem methodically. Current Japan is NOT responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. Imperial Japan does not exist.Yes it is, and no it doesn't.
It might help to look into the philosophical implications of Japan's acceptance explored by Takahashi Tetsuya 高橋哲哉, 1999. 1. responsiblity 2. crime 3. guilt; these three do not necessarily conicide nor should they.

[Kionon]

I do agree. Two governments in question are not identical, but for the latter to be regocnized as a legitimate Japanese govenernment, it has to accept unpaid dues and responsibilities, if not guilt of sin of perpetrating the crime itself. This fine yest easily confused distinction is illuciadated in Tetsuya Takahashi's Demanding Postwar Responsibility 戰後責任論, Kondasha, 1999.

Let us agree to disagree. I simply cannot agree that Current Japan is responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. You will never convince me otherwise. Japan's government is legitimate based on its creation after the war was concluded. It is not a continuation of the previous government. This is a fundamental difference of definition, and one I do not feel we can reconcile.

So it's about tax money. I feel rather offended by your comparison with US slavery and your unwillingness to any reparation because you had nothing to do with US slavery. Becaue the analogy is so far fetched I find it hard to accept your argumnent as valid in our discussion.

You'll have to clarify. Are you offended because you feel the analogy doesn't pan out, or are you offended because I'd refuse to pay reparations to descendents of slaves? My refusal to pay for crimes I did not commit does not mean I dismiss the atrocities as if I they did not happen.

That's when it all got started, the distortion of history as an ideological tool of expansion,which continues today in like format and spirit. If you do not see the ghosts of the Meji era working thru the years of 'turmoil,' resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, resulting in the vanishing of races, racial identities, or both, under the guidance of western powers such as the US and Russia, you do not understand what you are talking about. The very land disputes Japan HAS been creating since 1952 are exactly the one Japan started taking by force in the eraly Meiji years.

No, I do not see the ghosts of the Meiji era. You can say whatever you want about my qualifications to argue with you, but I simply do not agree that Imperial Japan is somehow working from the grave like a zombie government controling the current Japanese political elite.

You don't see my point. War crimes are the very ramifications you are making slight of.

You're telling me war crimes were committed after the new government was installed? You'd better be able to prove that. I refered the sociological ramifications of imperialist thought in post-war Japan.

And I am NOT making slight of war crimes. The Imperial Japanese military committed wanton mass murder, rape, destruction, and in some cases carried out and planned to continue to carry out genocide. You cannot say that my defense of the current Japanese government is making slight of the atrocities that were committed. That's unfair.

Well you are entitled to your views; just out of curiosity does yor view reflect the view of the US navy or is it personal ?

Let me make one thing very, VERY clear, as it disturbs me you would even ask:

A single midshipman cannot speak for the entire US Navy. That's ludicrous. Every view I express on an internet forum is my own personal viewpoint. Sometimes I may speak in reference to my military experience, but even then, I am still offering a personal viewpoint. Perhaps if I was CNO or SecNav or a high ranking Admiral that could be different, but I'm so junior as to be completely insignificant. In fact, if I was accused of speaking in an official capacity I could be kicked out of the Navy. Please take care when asking such questions. I realize you may not have known that, or known how junior I am, but I am telling you now. It is very important that you realize I speak only for myself and never for the United States Navy.

True, current Japan is not Imperial Japan. And again true that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. If you fail to see the inner workings of expansionism which continues today, then I understand why you are making such statements.

Another fundamental difference. You can believe what you will about Meiji ghosts. I've never been a paranormal person. The Meiji era is dead and gone, and there's little that can convince me otherwise. If this is enough to make you feel that my opinion is no longer valid, that is up to you.

Losing a war hardly, hardly atones for anything. You seem to attach to much value in military victory/defeat. That was only the beginning, a chance to make up with the past, which regrettably were overlooked for the conveniences and national interests pursued under the name of cold war.

I attach much to military victory/defeat when it involved the deaths of millions and destruction of an entire nation, a large portion of which due to nuclear attack, and which required a massive rebuilding effort. Whatever crimes the Japanese of that time period committed, they were punished for their actions in a horrific action to end the war. Suffering beyond my ability to imagine, and surely beyond yours as well. If that wasn't punishment, than I simply do not know what is.

You may be right that the new Japanese government failed to redress wrongs for whatever reason, which very well could have included cold war strategic and tactical planning. I have said as much, and if that is true, then Japan has something to answer for, and should apologize for the impotence during a critical time of change. But that remains to be proven in a court of law. I am person who believes that justice will eventually win out the end. Justice delayed is not always justice denied, but in this case it may come close. On this we are in agreement.

Yes it is, and no it doesn't.

Sorry, it's not. You will not convince me otherwise unless you can prove McArthur handed the reigns to war criminals, and I want names and crimes committed in order to believe that. Due process is a big deal to us Americans, and I will not give considerable thought to any accusation without evidence being presented.

It might help to look into the philosophical implications of Japan's acceptance explored by Takahashi Tetsuya, 1999. 1. responsiblity 2. crime 3. guilt; these three do not necessarily conicide nor should they.

I'll go ahead and read the book, but I do believe that they coincide. If they do not, then any sense of justice might as well be tossed out the window. A criminal must have committed the crime, been responsible at the time of the crime, and must be guilty of the crime because of the previous two. You can not indict all of Japan for the crimes of a few. The nation is not wholly responsible or wholly guilty.

[pipokun]

By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D.
I understand you try to be as rational as possible, saying the difference of responsibilities in state and the indivisual.
Then always find others saying, "well then who vote and choose the govenment? Japanese, isn't it? So by deductive reasoning the current indivisuals are responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future indivisuals in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D."
If you say like the above, no diplomatic relations would be needed but anachy.

How about demanding more Korea-Japan diplomatic documents to your govenment? Japanese cannot say anything about it, for it is your internal matter in your govenment, isn't it?

Always wonder where are cheerful drunken Koreans like my Korean friends on the Chongno street.

[bossel]

I simply cannot agree that Current Japan is responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. You will never convince me otherwise. Japan's government is legitimate based on its creation after the war was concluded. It is not a continuation of the previous government.
Well, I think, by eg. demanding the return of the Kuriles, the modern Japanese government walks in the footsteps of the Imperial government. But that aside, of course the current government is not responsible for the actions of previous governments. There is legacy, though. I don't think, simply because a government changes (albeit as drastically as after WWII) all the national debt, guilt a.s.o. disappears. The nation of Japan stayed widely intact (except eg. for the Kuriles), hence there is a national continuity. AFAIK the Japanese government even accepts (at least parts of) this continuity, eg. by demanding the Kuriles back.

What's more, there was continuity of national institutions:
- the Tenno was still there (albeit without most of his previous powers)
- the constitution was only amended, not re-drawn, IIRC
- the bureaucracy (the very basics of governmental power) stayed largely intact, see this article (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19990701fareviewessay996/walter-lafeber/the-unmasterable-past-the-limits-of-japan-s-postwar-transformation.html).

[sabro]

You guys have stumbled on to that "sins of the father" kind of question that has no easy answer. How much responsibility for apology and redress does the current government have for the actions of its predescessor? How responsible are the descendents of war criminals for the crimes? When does justice stop? Certainly Germany answered it one way, and Japan another.

[caster51]

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/editorial/news/20061030ig90.htm

According to a leading article of Yomiuri news



慰安婦狩りをやったと“自白”した日本人も現れたが、 これも作り話だった。政府の調査でも、強制連行を示す 直接の資料はついに見つからなかった。

強制連行は「今に至っても事実を裏付けるものは出てい ない」

[sabro]

What does the article say?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

The Japanese who said that I abducted Comfort Women appeared,
However, this was a lie talk.
The direct document to show compulsion by investigation of the government was not found after all.

kidnapped "A thing proving a fact at present does not appear."

Is not translation wrong?:relief:

[bexchurnside]

I am glad that at least the English never shot a single Japanese. Thank heavens for this!!

[Goldiegirl]

The English didn't shoot Japanese because they were not attacked by the Japanese. They did shoot Germans. Anyway, I don't think that's the point here. The past is in the past. Repeat the good, and learn from the bad.

[junjunforever]

The English didn't shoot Japanese because they were not attacked by the Japanese. They did shoot Germans. Anyway, I don't think that's the point here. The past is in the past. Repeat the good, and learn from the bad.


very true. but looking over this thread, we have people who dont learn from the past and continuously justify the killing and massacre.

[caster51]

very true. but looking over this thread, we have people who dont learn from the past and continuously justify the killing and massacre.

:blush: :blush:

i think all ppl is regarettable about that.
the problem is what truth is....
It is different to tell the truth from no learning from the past.
And, today's idea is different from an idea at that time.

[KirinMan]

I am glad that at least the English never shot a single Japanese. Thank heavens for this!!

Umm I think you may need to check up on your history a bit here. While the British did not have a large force in the Pacific during WWII there were definitely British Combatants and POW's during the war.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/British_Pacific_Fleet

That is a link to the British Pacific Fleet in WWII and they participated in a number of campaigns and battles as well.

This is a quote from Wikipedia about Britian's active service in the Pacific War.

Major actions in which the fleet was involved included the Jan 1945 carrier airstrikes on Japanese strategic oil targets in Palembang, Sumatra. These highly successful raids reduced oil production for the Japanese Navy. Later, in March 1945 in support of the invasion of Okinawa it had sole responsibility for operations in the Sakishima Islands. Its role was to suppress Japanese air activity, using gunfire and air attack, at potential Kamikaze staging airfields that would otherwise be a threat to U.S. Navy vessels operating at Okinawa. The carriers were subject to heavy and repeated kamikaze attacks, but because of their armoured flight decks, the British aircraft carriers proved highly resistant (unlike their U.S. counterparts), and returned to action relatively quickly. Subsequent studies, however, showed that serious damage had occurred to the ships' structure and modernisation was uneconomic.

In April 1945, the British 4th Submarine Flotilla was transferred to the major Allied submarine base at Fremantle, Western Australia, as part of BPF. Its most notable success in this period was the sinking of the heavy cuiser Ashigara, on June 8, 1945 in Banka Strait, off Sumatra, by HMS Trenchant and HMS Stygian. In July 1945 in the Singapore area, British midget submarine XE3 sank Japanese heavy cruiser Takao which settled to the bottom at it's berth and never went to sea again.

Battleships and aircraft from the fleet also attacked the Japanese home islands. The battleship King George V bombarded factories and other installations in the Tokyo area; meanwhile carrier strikes were carried out against land and harbor targets including, notably, the putting out of action of a Japanese escort carrier by British naval aircraft. The BPF would also have played a major part in a proposed invasion of the Japanese home islands, known as Operation Downfall, which was cancelled after Japan surrendered. The last naval air action in WWII was on VJ-Day when British carrier aircraft shot down Japanese Zero fighters.

Lt Robert Hampton Gray, a Canadian naval airman who piloted a Vought Corsair with No. 1841 Squadron FAA on HMS Formidable, was awarded the Victoria Cross, following his death in an attack on a Japanese destroyer at Onagawa Wan, Japan, on August 9, 1945.

Fighter squadrons from the fleet claimed a total of 112.5 Japanese aircraft shot down. No. 1844 Squadron FAA (flying Hellcats) was the top-scoring squadron, with 28 claims.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pacific_Fleet#Active_service

Also please dont forget the Battle of Singapore early on in the war, the thousands also that died there and the thousands that died as POW's as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/remembrance/veterans/japan_pows.shtml

I am surprised a bit that you and Goldiegirl were unaware of this fact of history. The British suffered in some ways more than other allies in the Pacific purely because of the amount of time many were held in capativity. Many Japanese have made reconcilliation trips to England to express their sorrow over their treatment of the British held in the camps. It was also a very nasty, unthinkable existance that many of the British lived through that were held there.

[Han Chan]

NHK now reports that Aso regrets that US House of Representatives made a draft resolution regarding the "confort women". Instead of apologizing or even ackkowledging the crimes against women during WWII, he cotuter attacks. This arrogant attitute will no doubt be popular among the exterme right in Japan, but at the same time it will delay reconciliation or maybe even lead to further outcry among the victims and neighboring countries. I know that most Japanese are shameful because of the way the militay treated women in occupied areas. However, as long as Aso remains FM the outside world will think that the Japanese do not regret the war crimes committed during WWII.
:(
NHK:
"Aso expresses regret over US comfort women resolution
Foreign Minister Taro Aso has expressed regret over a US House draft resolution calling on the Japanese government to apologize to women who worked at brothels for Japanese soldiers during World War Two.
The House of Representatives held a hearing last Thursday on the draft resolution submitted in January.
It says the Japanese government should "formally acknowledge and apologize in a clear and unequivocal manner" for the former Japanese military forcing young women of Asia and the Pacific islands into prostitution.
On Monday, Japanese Foreign Minister Aso was asked at the Lower House Budget Committee whether the Japanese military actually did what was written in the draft resolution.
Mr Aso responded that he is not in a position to acknowledge the matter. He said the draft resolution is extremely regrettable because it is not based on objective facts. "

[postalguide21]

Ms. Yi yongsu had changed her testimony at some interviews especially,
And she also said that "this was long time ago! i am confused!"
We need only the physical evidence from ex. comfort women and government
of china, korea, taiwan and phillipine. Only testimony of ex.comfort woman
have been too enough for us.

[KirinMan]

How many times does a government need to apologize for it's past wrong doings before people will let a subject die?

In my opinion people are not satisfied with just an apology but want some type of monetary compensation as well.

[Goldiegirl]

Obeika is right I think about the monetary compensation. The same thing is happening in the US with the whole issue of slavery. We can not hold responsible the people today for what happened in the past. I don't think a current government has any need to apologise for something they were not involved in. It really is meaningless, would there be any real sentiment or true feeling of remorse. I for one don't feel personal remorse for past history. I can feel sympathy, anger, but for remorse, no, I wasn't there.

[postalguide21]

Japan has no compensation problem between any country.
<Compensation agreements>
1952: Taiwan, India (disclaimed the compensation)
1952: Cambodia (disclaimed the compensation)
1957: Raos (disclaimed the compensation)
1958: Indonesia
1959: Vietnam(South vietnam)
1962: Thai
1963: Myammer
1965: Korea(include North korea)
1967: Malaysia
1968: Singapore
1969: Micronesia
1977: Mongolia
　　　
Above agreements had been based on SF peace treaty and had signed.
All compensation problems had settled. Any claim for past have to be
asked own govenment.
Anyway, I want to say ex.comfort womem, china, korea, taiwan and
phillipine, SHOW THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. ONLY TESTIMONIES ARE TOO ENOUGH.

For your information, Korean government had not disclosed contents of
the Agreement between japan to the public untill 2005.

[KirinMan]

Obeika is right I think about the monetary compensation. The same thing is happening in the US with the whole issue of slavery. We can not hold responsible the people today for what happened in the past. I don't think a current government has any need to apologise for something they were not involved in. It really is meaningless, would there be any real sentiment or true feeling of remorse. I for one don't feel personal remorse for past history. I can feel sympathy, anger, but for remorse, no, I wasn't there.

I have no facts to base this opinion and want to clarify right off the top that this is purely conjecture on my part in this response.

In my opinion one of the biggest reasons this issue has resurfaced now is directly linked to Japan's economic status in the world as well. People think that now because Japan has the money and economic clout it can also afford to pay compensation to individual's for crimes committed during WWII.

If the Japanese economy was on par with a country like the Phillipine's or Viet Nam noone would be trying to make claims against it. Also I feel that in requesting another apology for crimes committed by it's predecessors the countries and individual's making these claims feel that they are strengthening their case in getting monetary compensation.

If the government chooses to apologize again, so be it, that is a decision the government needs to make. I don't think that it is within the rights of the US House of Representatives to be making a request like this, or even for that matter to bring it up in official discussions within the government.

To the House of Representatives in the US all I want to say to them is Pot-Kettle-Black, for all the crimes that the US is guilty of throughout it's own history and for pointing fingers at Japan

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I know one of the poor ladies who was taken out of the camp where she was "living" with her mother in Central Java, during the Japanese occupation.
Most of these camps where we all had to stay during WWII because we are Dutch, were bad enough. But this poor lady, Ellen v.d.Ploeg, was taken away when she was a very young woman of 22 years old, to a special Home with several other Dutch women and girls, she was used day and night by many Japanese military. This happened in Semarang in Central Java, Indonesia.

Far more important than all the compensations in the world is the refusal of the acknowledgement of this crime by the PM from Japan, Shinzo Abe.

I am really sorry, I expected real diplomacy from him about WWII in the Far East. I am so disappointed.

[KirinMan]

I know one of the poor ladies who was taken out of the camp where she was "living" with her mother in Central Java, during the Japanese occupation.
Most of these camps where we all had to stay during WWII because we are Dutch, were bad enough. But this poor lady, Ellen v.d.Ploeg, was taken away when she was a very young woman of 22 years old, to a special Home with several other Dutch women and girls, she was used day and night by many Japanese military. This happened in Semarang in Central Java, Indonesia.
Far more important than all the compensations in the world is the refusal of the acknowledgement of this crime by the PM from Japan, Shinzo Abe.
I am really sorry, I expected real diplomacy from him about WWII in the Far East. I am so disappointed.

Elizabeth not wanting to sound arrogant or condescending here but I really would like to ask you how many PM's here in Japan have to "officially" apologize before the world, or particularly Asia, accepts it?

There is no denying what happened, yet why does the current PM have to apologize again for something that his ancestors did?

Way back in 1992 or 93 then PM Miyazawa, I think it was, issued an official apology to all countries concerned, doesn't that count for something?

How long does it have to go on?

[Han Chan]

Elizabeth not wanting to sound arrogant or condescending here but I really would like to ask you how many PM's here in Japan have to "officially" apologize before the world, or particularly Asia, accepts it?
There is no denying what happened, yet why does the current PM have to apologize again for something that his ancestors did?
Way back in 1992 or 93 then PM Miyazawa, I think it was, issued an official apology to all countries concerned, doesn't that count for something?
How long does it have to go on?

Actually PM Abe and FM Aso are now trying to suggest that the U.S. congressional resolution is not based on "objective facts".
As long at the political leaders in Japan tries to avoid admitting the crimes of the past, the issue will go on and on.
If the japanese leaders had followed the example of the German leaders who repeatedly and sincerely expressed remorse for the crimes committed during WWII, the past would be the past. Only by trying to avoid accepting guilt, the wounds of the past are cept fresh.

"Abe says no apology on comfort women
03/06/2007
THE ASAHI SHIMBUN
Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made clear Monday he will not offer a fresh apology on the wartime "comfort women" issue even if Japan is urged to do so by a U.S. congressional resolution.
"The resolution contains mistakes of fact," Abe told the Upper House Budget Committee when asked about his intentions.
The non-binding resolution calls on Japan to offer a formal apology for the Imperial Japanese Army's role in forcing Korean women and women of other nationalities to provide sex to Japanese soldiers in battlefields leading up and during World War II.
"Even if it is passed, it does not mean we will apologize," Abe said.
He said he basically stands by a 1993 government statement that acknowledged the military's role in forcing the women to work in wartime brothels.
The statement, by then Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono, admitted the women were recruited through "coercion."
The statement offered the government's "sincere apologies and remorse."
Abe on Monday went on to say that "there was no coercion in such ways as military authorities bursting into homes and taking women out" to brothels.
He noted "there were cases in which brokers serving as middlemen in effect coerced them.
"So I think there was coercion in a broad sense."
Abe's remark last week that "there was no evidence" to prove coercion stirred a sharp backlash in South Korea and elsewhere.
The U.S. media widely reported it in connection with the proposed resolution.
Abe said the resolution "is not based on objective facts."
"It does not take into consideration the steps taken by the Japanese government so far, either," Abe said.
He said the government is making efforts to seek understanding of Japan's position "in response to moves by some members of Congress."
The chamber's budget committee started deliberations of the fiscal 2007 budget Monday after the Lower House approved it early Saturday.
"I do not think having a lengthy debate like this in the Diet is productive," Abe said when Toshio Ogawa of the opposition Minshuto (Democratic Party of Japan) raised the question about comfort women.
Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuhisa Shiozaki, meantime, Monday brushed aside concerns that Abe's remark last week indicated his intention to review the 1993 statement.
Some conservative forces are seeking a review.
Shiozaki took issue with those who said Abe's words were not consistent with the Kono statement.
"I think (the criticisms) were not based on appropriate understanding of the prime minister's words," he said.(IHT/Asahi: March 6,2007) "

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Elizabeth not wanting to sound arrogant or condescending here but I really would like to ask you how many PM's here in Japan have to "officially" apologize before the world, or particularly Asia, accepts it?
There is no denying what happened, yet why does the current PM have to apologize again for something that his ancestors did?
Way back in 1992 or 93 then PM Miyazawa, I think it was, issued an official apology to all countries concerned, doesn't that count for something?
How long does it have to go on?

Hi Obeiko,

The trouble is that Mr. Abe said that there was no proof whether these women and girls were forced to have sex or whether they had sex out of free will with the Japanese military overseas.
One cannot apologize for something you are not certain that it happened or didn't really happen.
Mr. Abe has his doubts about the comfortwomen, in his eyes they were willing to comfort the overseas Japanese army.
I say overseas, because I don't think that this sort of behaviour happened in Japan during WWII. People often behave different when they are outside their own country.

How long does it have to go on? This apologizing you mean?
Only the whole Japanese GOVERNMENT must apologize, not one or two or more ministers. Only then Japan will be accepted as a honest country.

I am also still waiting for an acknowledgement from a Dutch government to say that the Dutch government in London (Holland was occupied by Germany) declared war on Japan, 8 December 1941 without thinking about us ( 300 000 Dutch men,women and children) living in Indonesia. We were completely isolated from the rest of the world, everything could and did happen to us. We were left without any form of protection.

Australia had to be protected first, the former Dutch East Indies was not important and those 300 000 Dutch even less so.
Such is life.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I say overseas, because I don't think that this sort of behaviour happened in Japan during WWII. People often behave different when they are outside their own country.
Actually, in all fairness, I'm pretty certain that the Japanese government actually did do the same thing after the war, i.e., round up a bunch of Japanese nationals to "comfort" the American soldiers.

[pipokun]

Actually, in all fairness, I'm pretty certain that the Japanese government actually did do the same thing after the war, i.e., round up a bunch of Japanese nationals to "comfort" the American soldiers.
There were also a sad story, bunch of orphans. Americans were not irresponsible dads, but they also adopted them as well.

Elizabeth van Kampen
Mr. Abe has his doubts about the comfortwomen, in his eyes they were willing to comfort the overseas Japanese army.
No, he does not think so.

[KirinMan]

The trouble is that Mr. Abe said that there was no proof whether these women and girls were forced to have sex or whether they had sex out of free will with the Japanese military overseas.
One cannot apologize for something you are not certain that it happened or didn't really happen.
Mr. Abe has his doubts about the comfortwomen, in his eyes they were willing to comfort the overseas Japanese army.
I say overseas, because I don't think that this sort of behaviour happened in Japan during WWII. People often behave different when they are outside their own country.


You are quite right, he should have kept his mouth shut. I reread the news articles about this most recent gaffe of the current PM and his cabinet.

I also now realize the reason for the timing as well, the private fund that was set up to compensate any women with claims against the Japanese government time limit runs out on March 31st of this year.

How long does it have to go on? This apologizing you mean?
Only the whole Japanese GOVERNMENT must apologize, not one or two or more ministers. Only then Japan will be accepted as a honest country

Sorry maybe I should have written it out fully instead of just writing PM. Then Prime Minister Miyazawa apologized, so as the head of the government he was at the time "the" Japanese government so his apology should have been enough.

Pipokun, please clarify what you mean here, because unless I am mistaken you are saying that American servicemen were not/are not being irresponsible by Fathering children and then leaving them behind as orphans.

I really hope that isn't what you are saying.

There were also a sad story, bunch of orphans. Americans were not irresponsible dads, but they also adopted them as well.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

May I say something personally?

If I had the same bad luck as many of the poor comfortwomen, (I stood in the line in January 1944 in Banyu Biru 10, but thank goodness I had a malaria attack at that same moment) I know that my life would have been completely different today. I would have felt a deep shame, a very deep sadness at the same time. It would have come over me as a knife cutting in my body and soul.

Apologizing, compensation, nothing would have given me my innocence back again, nothing at all.
l

[pipokun]

May I say something personally?
If I had the same bad luck as many of the poor comfortwomen, (I stood in the line in January 1944 in Banyu Biru 10, but thank goodness I had a malaria attack at that same moment) I know that my life would have been completely different today. I would have felt a deep shame, a very deep sadness at the same time. It would have come over me as a knife cutting in my body and soul.
Apologizing, compensation, nothing would have given me my innocence back again, nothing at all.
l
I think it is highly offensive if Japanese would claim "good-old days in Korea & Manchu country".

Obeika
Thanks you for your clarification. That's what I wanted to say, though I know it is irrelevant here.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Thanks you for your clarification. That's what I wanted to say, though I know it is irrelevant here.
Actually, I thought you meant to say that the Americans were not all irresponsible because they would adopt the children that resulted from their "comforting".

[caster51]

there are surely so many comfourt women as a prostitute in business by korean, japanese and local brothel owner.
Jpanese army managed them because of sick.
however, there is no evidence that they were forced.
according to old documment of comfort women, it was prohibited to force them.
女子挺身隊　is not comfort woman at all
korean indicate them comfort woman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKFGY85EvM
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/pmilitary/45000/20070224117228460209404800.jpg

[caster51]

recruiting of comfort woman as a prostitute
baisyunfu(売春婦）chaged ianfu(慰安婦）　because of Kotodama
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/72000/20061004115989859702301000.jpg

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Caster51
I looked and listened to the video you have sent but I don't understand Japanese. Sorry! But you have convinced others.

To me there is a difference in falling in love with "the enemy" or being used by the enemy.
Just as some Japanese camp guards in Indonesia were not bad at all, while others were real devils.
Sorry that I can only speak about the situation in Indonesia during WWII, but we were completely isolated from the rest of the world more than 3½ years long.

[Sukotto]

Well the kanji translate to
女子=women
挺身隊=volunteer corps

I cannot understand the spoken Japanese though
or the meaning of the video, so excuse me if I am jumping to conclusions,

Personally I find it kind of hard to believe that women would be jumping to join a corps of volunteers to offer their bodies to be used for sex.
There may be individuals who for their own reasons fall in love with a GI or whatever, but a corp volunteering to offer sex? That is pretty far fetched.

[Sukotto]

Is anybody able to expound on this:
Whereas Japanese public and private officials have recently expressed a desire to dilute or rescind the 1993 statement by Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the `comfort women', which expressed the Government's sincere apologies and remorse for their ordeal;
It seems this was not the PM who made the appology but a secretary,
thus it is not the government as a whole,
also,
is there anybody in the conversation that
reads Japanese newspapers on a regular basis that might have accumulated knowledge on the "public and private officials" who "have recently expressed a desire to dilute or rescind the 1993 statement" ?



In the US, the Clinton administration officially appologized for the overthrow
of the Hawaiian queen, which involved I believe: the US gov't, those that ran plantations, and religious clergy.
http://www.freehawaii.org/bill103.html
Also Ronald Reagan appologized for the sending of US citizens of Japanese descent (and some not) to concentration camps during WW2, and offered up a token compensation.

[KirinMan]

Actually, I thought you meant to say that the Americans were not all irresponsible because they would adopt the children that resulted from their "comforting".
I hope that is what he wanted to say.


It seems this was not the PM who made the appology but a secretary,
thus it is not the government as a whole,
also,


Actually it was the Prime Minister in South Korea in 1993, problem was he only apologized to SK it seems.
third watershed event occurred on January 11, 1992, when the Asahi Shimbun reported that Yoshiaki Yoshimi, a Japanese historian, had discovered several official war documents at the Library of the National Institute for Defense Studies in Tokyo. Contrary to Japan's official position up until then, these documents revealed that the imperial army was involved in both establishing and operating the comfort stations. As a result, the Japanese government could not help but acknowledge its wartime involvement in the comfort women issue; and on January 13, 1992, it issued an apology. Four days later, Prime Minister Miyazawa formally apologized to the Korean people during his visit to Korea. In March 1992, a South Korean non-governmental organization, The Korean Council for the Women Drafted for Military Sexual Slavery by Japan (Han'guk Chongsindaemunje Taech'aek Hyopuihoe, "Korean Council" for short) appealed to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights to investigate the comfort women issue.


Japan's Responsibility Toward Comfort Women Survivors
by C. Sarah Soh (http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp77.html)

[Han Chan]

Is anybody able to expound on this:
It seems this was not the PM who made the appology but a secretary,
thus it is not the government as a whole,...

It seems that the appology in 1993 was only made because a journalist revealed some documents:

"The 1993 apology was not approved by the parliament. It came after a Japanese journalist uncovered official defense documents showing the military had a direct hand in running the brothels -- a role Tokyo until that point had denied."
(AP) March 7, 2007.

[postalguide21]

"Website of Ministry of Gender Equality & Family"
This website has been brought to you by korean government
Comfort Woman advertisement in japanese on October 27 1944
<Content of the advertisement: Right side>
Comfort women wanted.
Requirements for applicants
Age: 17-23
Place: XXXX Brothel
Monthly salary: JPYen300.-min.
(To JPY3,000 advance on salary is available)
Work hours: Negotiable during 8:00AM to 10:00PM
<Content of the advertisement: Left side>
Requirements for applicants
Destination:XXXX brothel
Age: 18-30(Has to be fine health)
Recruit period: Oct. 27th to Nov. 8th
Start date:Around Nov. 11st
Treatment: Negotiable at personal inteview
Numbers: Tens of people
By Comparison,
Beginner's salary of Policeman was JPY45.- per month at the same time.
Korean government and korean ex.comfort women have claimed that japanese army brought in large numbers of women against their will.
If their are true, Why did japanese army need thesek kinds of advertisement?

[caster51]

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/thistory/1840000/20070319117430460294666400.jpg
1th Septemper 1961 by The Dong-a Ilbo Newspaper
(Translation of title)
"We( seoul city ) accepts registration for post as comfort woman of UN's army from 13th of this month"

In case of Korea, a nation of korea recruited comfort women as a postitute
for UN soldiers

Beginner's salary of Policeman was JPY45.- per month at the same time　7 yen is corect

[caster51]

a Pro. of Seoul unversity said." anti-japan sentiment is pointless....."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K08SmNrW2gY

[gaijinalways]

Caster, you have to understand that not all the women volunteered and/or were honestly recruited for 'comforting' the Japanese soldiers. But don't feel bad Oscar in YD doesn't seem to grasp that point either. Often issues like this are not just black and white, something PM Abe is still grappling with.:okashii:

[ecampbell07]

I'm currently producing a documentary on the comfort women, and I must say, what PM Abe has said is quite enraging. While it is true that some women went willingly into the comfort system, the brutal truth is that the vast majority WERE forced. People need to realize and acknowledge that, instead of trying every way in the world to denounce this issue.

[origami]

gaijinalways, you have to understand all women were prositutes (not slaves) , i.e., part of them had been "sold" by their parents to brokers for the debt (parents had received advance). They were really pitiable in that sense.

For your info, the number of comfort women (=prostitutes) is estimated around 20,000 (NOT 200,000! impossible!), 50% Japanese, 20% Koreans (Japanese citizens at that time), 30% Chinese and others.

Comfort women (prostitutes) were able to quit the job and to be completely free once they had paid off the debt.

You can get an access to the US report on comfort women, searching words "exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA" (adding URLs is not allowed)


Let us make points clear --

1) NO KIDNAPPING , NO SLAVERY caused by Japanese military

2)Prostituion itself was legal in Japan until 1949, was as legal as it is now in some European countries; regulations existed in Japan to protect prostitutes against excessive exploitation

3)Japanese military issued warning against illegal recruitments (mostly in Korean Peninsula where most brokers were Koreans), this means Japanese military did acknowledge the existence of wartime prostitutes, which Japanese government has never denied

4)What Japanese military did were -- warning brokers against illegal or dishonest recruitment, ordering housemasters (employers) to keep his/her house in good sanitary conditions, sending doctors occasionally to houses , taking care of safe transportation of the women. All these were done for the health and safety of soldiers and civilians (prostitutes and housemasters, etc.) outside of Japan. Nothing blamable!

5)GHQ (general headquarters) of US occupation military (1945 - 1952) , shocked at reports of thousands of rapes caused by US soldiers in Japan, also requested Japanese authority to provide them with "amusement house" of prostitutes -- US military had similar facilities in Vietnam -- South Korea government also provided UN military with prostitutes. These facts tell us that militarism needs wartime prostitues, which feminists can argue, if they want to , but this matter should be treated as something general in this whole world.

6)Misery of "sold" women was a tragedy, of course -- however, was nothing rare 50 - 60 years ago. There were many Japanese women, most of whom were daughters of poor farmers in northern area of Japan.

7)There was one case in Idonesia where Japanese soldiers took Dutch women to a comfort house against their will (NOT kidnapped). Two months later, higher rank officers noticed that and punished soldiers immediately, released them, and shut down the house. After WWII, 11 officers (including completely innocent one) were sentenced to DEATH or to 15-20 years in prison. For your info, there were already 2-3 hundreds Dutch prostitutes when Japanese military occupied Indonesia.

8)After WWII Japan accepted the judgement of International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo Military Trial). Series of trials were done without justice nor fairness, nevertheless, Japan accepted the judgement. As written above, Japanese military officers were severely punished.
You can get an access to Wiki page, searching words "International Military Tribunal for the Far East"

9)NO CASE of kidnapping/slavery done by Japanese military was brought to the court of Tokyo Military Trial. No one -- no Korean, no Chinese charged Japan with kidnapping/slavery at the court 60 years ago.

10)In 1965, the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea (South Korea) was signed (which was kept secret in South Korea until 2005.) South Korea agreed to demand no compensations, either at the government or individual level, after receiving money (a huge amount at that time) in grants and soft loans from Japan. South Korean government also claimed that it would handle individual compensation to its citizens who suffered during Japan's colonial rule, while rejecting Japan's proposal to directly compensate individual victim, and receiving the whole amount of grants on the behalf of victims.

11)At this 1965 treaty, kidnapping/slavery was not brought by South Korea, either. Was there any Korean officer who tried to include this matter into agenda? -- No. No one talked about this matter.

12) In 1991, the first Korean "witness" appeared. She said that she could testify "evil conducts" of Japanese military -- but every time she was interviewed, what she claimed was inconsistent with what she told previously. Finally, we learned that she was another case of those pitiable women; she was sold by her father (foster father) to Korean broker.

13)"Comfort women" were renamed to "military comfort women" and to "sex slaves."
What private brokers did 70-60 years ago is now called "kidnapping by Japanese military."
Sounds very strange, doesn't it?

14)"Kidnapping/slavery" is a fiction, a total frame-up. All these comfort women matters, there is surprising background -- it would require much more space (and time and energy) to be told you correctly, so I stop here now.


Comfort women matter was at first (and still is) "bread and butter" of not only Korean but also Japanese left-wing activists. Recently it has become a weapon for China to attack Japan, to destroy US-Japan alliance. China's next weapon would be "Nanking massacre", there was no massacre, it was just one of local battles.


The Japanese accepted the judgement of unfair Tokyo Military Trial and have apologized all the countries involved in WWII many times -- yes, many times! -- and have been trying to contribute to peace of Asia through giving economical/technological/educational support to Asian countries for these 60 years.

While "kidnapping/slavery by Japanese military" being a total frame-up, still, apologies are not enough?

Why do some people require Japanese government of further apologies, instead of blaming North Korea for kidnapping Japanese citizens including a 13-year old girl ?

Why do some people try to reduce Japan into silence while neglecting kidnapped Japanese (and other countries') citizens in North Korea ? They are still captivated in North Korea!!

We, the Japanese will never let our government make any further apologies.
Further apologies would be only harmful to health of mind of Japanese children.We will protect the future of our children.

[KirinMan]

7)There was one case in Idonesia where Japanese soldiers took Dutch women to a comfort house against their will (NOT kidnapped).

How ludicrous can you get, "against their will" ="NOT kidnapped". :mad:

What the hell is your definition of kidnapping? Are you some kind of :dunce:

[origami]

Hi, ecampbell07!

I would recommend you to do thourough investigation about this matter before you produce your documentary, otherwise you would end up being involved in cheep propaganda.

Or are you already involved?

China lobby has approached you?
Representative Mike Honda, D-California, is trying to gain favor with Korean-American voters in his elecion district, but also has received contributions form China lobby. Financally, it is China lobby who support Mike Honda. With this comfort women matter, Mike Honda is manipulated by China lobby. They are preparing for their 2nd stage (Nanking masacre), I bet.

We Japanese believed that US Congress is a place for fruitful discussion -- we believed so, until yesterday. See what they are doing there now. I wonder if tax payers will not get angry to know the truth of Congress. It is a farce. Reps are spending time and money (tax) discussing what Japanese military did 60 years ago, what Turks did to Armenians 100 years ago in order to act for China lobby and French lobby separately.

" the brutal truth is that the vast majority WERE forced. "
Forced by whom?
By Japanese military? -- No jokes, please.
Japanese military might be accused of neglecting the tragedy which was caused by poverty.

Would you Americans willingly make your government apologyze to the Japanese for the brutal truth that GHQ of US military neglected what was happening daily in the first couple of months and let US soldiers rape thousands of Japanese women (housewives, highschoolers, i.e. civilians), and forced some other Japanese women to become prostitutes during 1945 - 1952?

[KirinMan]

People need to realize and acknowledge that, instead of trying every way in the world to denounce this issue.

I have yet to hear anyone other than a few Japanese people make any claims otherwise. I would change this to read;

A few Japanese people need to realize and acknowledge that instead of trying every way in the world to denounce this issue they should accept the fact that this is a sad part of the history of Japan.

I wrote earlier that I was getting a bit tired of hearing people continually say that they are waiting for Japan to "officially" apologize for this issue from WWII. I have to admit that in the case of the comfort women issue Japan meaning the government has been inexcusably slow in responding and acknowledging that this sorry episode from WWII still cause pain and suffering for many throughout many parts of Asia.

I'm currently producing a documentary on the comfort women, and I must say, what PM Abe has said is quite enraging

When you finish it please either put a link here to allow us to watch it or let us know when and where it will be hopefully broadcast. I think it should be educational for all parties involved. I particularly hope that the program if appropriate would be aired here on NHK as well. Good luck in your endeavor.

@origami
Well are you going to "answer" my question to you?

[KirinMan]

Would you Americans willingly make your government apologyze to the Japanese for the brutal truth that GHQ of US military neglected what was happening daily in the first couple of months and let US soldiers rape thousands of Japanese women (housewives, highschoolers, i.e. civilians), and forced some other Japanese women to become prostitutes during 1945 - 1952?

You are confusing the issue, by writing this you are attempting to equal one with the other. They are two separate issues. You are attempting to say that one justifies the other, while neither are justifiable in any sense of the word.

Also there is little evidence and no claims by Japanese women that I know of to support your accusations here.

The evidence is heavily against you on this issue.

[origami]

Obeika, you must note that I wrote "there was one case" -- it means it was an exceptional case, and soldiers were punished immediately, and the house was shut down.

Korean and Dutch witnesses who appreared in Congress the other day, and their supporters -- what they mean by the term "kidnapping" is "snatching a girl away off her parents while they were walking along a country road, or enjoying picnic, etc., and dumping her to the platform of a truck and taking her away together with other girls without telling her parents anything."

Ridiculous. This is exactly what North Korean agents were doing in 1970s - 80s in Japan.

As to the case with a Dutch woman, her father knew where his daughter was; he reported the fact to Japanese military headquarters, and Japanese officers were surprised and shocked and found the dauter and returned her to the father.

As I wrote above, this Dutch case was brought to the court where the Dutch women testified already. 11 Japanese officers were sentensed to many years in prison or death.

Is it fair for anyone to require Japan of second trial/apology after 60 years?
I think it is a total unfairness.

[KirinMan]

Obeika, you must note that I wrote "there was one case" -- it means it was an exceptional case, and soldiers were punished immediately, and the house was shut down.

No I do not "need" to note that at all, you are sidestepping the issue by infering that against someones will does not equal kidnapping, on this you are wrong.

Ridiculous. This is exactly what North Korean agents were doing in 1970s - 80s in Japan.



Once again different issue, you lose your credibility when you cloud the point you were first trying to make by including information that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Again you attempt to justify the actions of the Japanese military. It just doesnt cut it with me.

[origami]

You are confusing the issue, by writing this you are attempting to equal one with the other. They are two separate issues. You are attempting to say that one justifies the other, while neither are justifiable in any sense of the word.
Also there is little evidence and no claims by Japanese women that I know of to support your accusations here.
The evidence is heavily against you on this issue.

Obeika, if you say "neither are justifiable", then ask US government to apologyze to the Japanese at least once.

We have undergone trials and repeated apologies.

We were forced to admit and aplogyzed even for what never occurred in Military Trials after WWII. There was no other choice.

However, that is the last straw to be required further apologies for what Japanese military was not responsible for.

[origami]

PM Abe has never denied the existence of comfort women (prostitutes), he (and his supporters) denies the fiction that Japanese military kidnapped women and forced them to work as slaves.

Since the first Korean "witness" with inconsistent testimony appreared suddenly in 1991, a couple more "witnesses" and their supporters started to crowd in front of Japanese Embassy in Seoul, South Korea weekly.

PM Miyazawa promised President Chon to look into the matter.

And he did.
He ordered Ministry of Foreign Affairs and other departments to do a thorough investigation.

They found nothing.
No hard evidence was there that testifies Japanese military issued an order in writing for recruitment of women.

In the meantime the crowd in front of Japanese Embassy was growing larger and noisier and more hysterical.

In 1993, Chief Cabinet Secretary Kono visited Seoul, South Korea, he was asked to meet some of "witnesses". He agreed, but some memebers of Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs interviewed them in advance.

Kono's team interviewed 16 old women, i.e., they just listened to what old women told. There was no hard evidence in Korea, either.

Then, Kono's counterpart of Korea made a proposition -- if Kono admits that those 16 Korean women were coerced to become comfort women, Korean government will pay compensation money to each individual. Korean officials asked Kono strongly not to injure the pride of old women.

Kono, in expectation that they would stop hysteric demonstration, stretched the meaning of "coercion" to its full extent -- he interpreted "coerction" as "negligence" of illegal recruitment.

Korean officials requested that Kono make sure to include the term "coercion" in his Talk which was to be announced the following day.

In this way Kono's Talk 1993 was announced.

Japanese government also supported the establishment of Foundation for Asian Women.


Then what happened?

Japanese government was betrayed.
Situation stays unchanged.

Korean old women never stop crying hysterically, Korean massmedia never stop generating anti-Japan reports, even Korean President blames Japan loudly, all which are oiling the anti-Japan flames.

Most of the Japanese, including PM Abe, have learned that making obscure compromises is nothing more than harm to the healthy relation between Japan and Korea or any other country.

Kono Talk 1993 has made complicated situation more complicated without imroving Korea-Japan relation -- or more exactly -- it has ruined the relationship.

Now China is putting comfort women matter to wrong use.

This is why most Japanese are waiting for PM Abe to speak up.

[KirinMan]

Obeika, if you say "neither are justifiable", then ask US government to apologyze to the Japanese at least once.


You know by writing what you did right here you are admitting that the Japanese Military was guilty as charged in the comfort women issue.

Everything else you write from this point on is meaningless.

Thank you for admitting that the Japanese Military was guilty of forcing women to work as prostitutes. Now if you can get the government to pay compensation to these unfortunate victims the issue could be closed.

[gaijinalways]

Obieka, Origami adopts the usual Japanese government line, which is to try and weasal out of responsibility on any technicalities that can be posed. This was continued with establishing a non-governmental body to pay compensation to the 'comfort' women.

Origami, you seem to have missed a lot of evidence unearthed that points to Japanese soldiers kidnapping women and raping them aganist their wishes (in some cases with the soldiers themselves admitting to the charges, but with most still not considering their actions wrong as they were following orders from the emperor). Women were not 'allowed to leave' until towards the end of the war. And if you're wondering why some of the women didn't come forward much earlier, some are dead already, and many others were embarassed/ashamed to come forward and tell about events they might rather have forgotten ever happened.

[KirinMan]

Obieka, Origami adopts the usual Japanese government line, which is to try and weasal out of responsibility on any technicalities that can be posed. This was continued with establishing a non-governmental body to pay compensation to the 'comfort' women.



I pretty much realized that after Origami's first post on this topic. :wave: Also the non-government body set up to deal with these claims has it mandate run out on March 31st of this year.

[caster51]

you seem to have missed a lot of evidence unearthed that points to Japanese soldiers kidnapping women and raping them aganist their wishes (in some cases with the soldiers themselves admitting to the charges, but with most still not considering their.....
I dont think so at all.
Cases of 20 Comfort Women Worked with Japanese Soldiers In Burma
A report submitted by
---------------------------------------------
UNITED STATES
OFFICE OF WAR INFORMATION
Psychological Warfare Team
Attached to
U.S. Army Forces
India-Burma Theater
APO 689
Japanese Prisoner
of War Interrogation
Report No. 49. Place interrogated: Ledo Stockade
Date Interrogated: Aug. 20 - Sept. 10, 1944
Date of Report: October 1, 1944
By: T/3 Alex Yorichi
Prisoners: 20 Korean Comfort Girls
Date of Capture: August 10, 1944
Date of Arrival: August 15, 1994
at Stockade
PREFACE
This report is based on the information obtained from the interrogation of twenty Korean "comfort girls" and two Japanese civilians captured around the tenth of August, 1944 in the mopping up operations after the fall of Myitkyin a in Burma.
The report shows how the Japanese recruited these Korean "comfort girls", the conditions under which they lived and worked, their relations with and reaction to the Japanese soldier, and their understanding of the military situation.
A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute or "professional camp follower" attached to the Japanese Army for the benefit of the soldiers. The word "comfort girl" is peculiar to the Japanese. Other reports show the "comfort girls" have been found wherever it was necessary for the Japanese Army to fight. This report however deals only with the Korean "comfort girls" recruited by the Japanese and attached to their Army in Burma. The Japanese are reported to have shipped some 703 of these girls to Burma in 1942.
RECRUITING;
Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy. The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore. On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.
.......................
LIVING AND WORKING CONDITIONS;
In Myitkyina the girls were usually quartered in a large two story house (usually a school building) with a separate room for each girl. There each girl lived, slept, and transacted business. In Myitkina their food was prepared by and purchased from the "house master" as they received no regular ration from the Japanese Army. They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places. This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles. They were able to buy cloth, shoes, cigarettes, and cosmetics to supplement the many gifts given to them by soldiers who had received "comfort bags" from home.
http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html
according to trial, one of them, savings was 26,000 yen.
she sent 5000 yen to home in korea.
policeman's salary was 7yen at that time .
a new big house was 1000yen
PM salary was 800 Yen
was she a slave?.
she was so rich

[KirinMan]

The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with .........generally making the soldiers happy.

Yeah I suppose it could be said the "soldier's" were "happy".:(

Comfort Women Poll (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30175)

Please check out that link to a poll on this site, make your vote there please, I am hoping that you will see that the overwhelming majority of people on this board don't agree with you or your "stance" on this issue.

[caster51]

a official doccument of Japanese army
The army guraded against malignant prostitute mediation trader.
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/79000/20070317117406679415660300.jpg
Newspaper article that manages korean prostitute mediation trader in malignant in 1939
korean agents kindanapped 100women in rural.
http://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/6c/56/10017308673.jpg
policeman went china to expose them
http://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/5b/04/10017309270.jpg
a korean slave trader like a devil was arrested
http://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/fd/de/10017308721.jpg

[origami]

Obieka, Origami adopts the usual Japanese government line, which is to try and weasal out of responsibility on any technicalities that can be posed. This was continued with establishing a non-governmental body to pay compensation to the 'comfort' women.
Origami, you seem to have missed a lot of evidence unearthed that points to Japanese soldiers kidnapping women and raping them aganist their wishes (in some cases with the soldiers themselves admitting to the charges, but with most still not considering their actions wrong as they were following orders from the emperor). Women were not 'allowed to leave' until towards the end of the war. And if you're wondering why some of the women didn't come forward much earlier, some are dead already, and many others were embarassed/ashamed to come forward and tell about events they might rather have forgotten ever happened.


Show us what you call "a lot of evidence unearthed".

I've seen tons of fictions.
So, please show hard evidencce.

One more thing, please read carefully and thoroughly all my previous comments.

I am NOT wondering why some women didn't come forward much earlier, because I know why some "witnesses" appeared suddenly in 1991.

[KirinMan]

I've seen tons of fictions.
So, please show hard evidencce

The Position of JapanFrom the United Nations Report on CONTEMPORARY FORMS OF SLAVERY
(http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/7fba5363523b20cdc12565a800312a4b/3d25270b5fa3ea998025665f0032f220?OpenDocument#Appe ndix)

Scroll down the page to the appendix

3. The Japanese Government has recently offered a number of public apologies for the "problem" of the "comfort women." Most notably, in July 1995, on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of the end of the Second World War, Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama noted that "the scars of war still run deep" and that the "problem of the so-called 'wartime comfort women' is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honour and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed." [Statement by Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama, July 1995, reprinted in Asian Women's Fund (an official programme description). See also Japan's policy on the issues of violence against women and "comfort women" (E/CN.4/1996/137, annex) submitted to the Commission on Human Rights at its fifty-second session

There are evidently two issues here one of which is already decided upon;

1) Is the current Japanese Government liable monetarily for the crime of coercing these women into being prostitutes.

2) Admission of guilt; The Japanese Government has officially admitted that these crimes occured and apologized for them. Noone can argue that the Japanese military during WWII was not guilty as charged, only to the extent of the crime and numbers, official estimates put the number at nearly 200,000women.

http://www.comfort-women.org/v2/i/p/10.jpg

Here is some more;

An estimated one hundred thousand to four hundred thousand female sex slaves were forced to deliver sexual services to Japanese soldiers, both before and during World War II. They have been variously called "comfort women," "military sex slaves," "MSS," "military comfort women," and -- in Japanese -- "jugun ianfu." This program was approved by the Imperial Conference, which was composed of the emperor, representatives from the armed forces and the main Cabinet ministers. The conference was formed after Japan invaded Manchuria in 1937.



Taken from JAPANESE SEX SLAVERY BEFORE,
DURING AND AFTER WORLD WAR II
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_japa.htm)

How about this from Amnesty International;

Comfort Women (http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/comfort_women-eng)

How about this taken from A Public Betrayed (http://www.apublicbetrayed.com/case_studies/case_study5.htm)

http://www.apublicbetrayed.com/graphics/p327.jpg

I challenge you to read through these and tell me that all these people from all these different sources from all over the world are liars.

[origami]

Obeika,

Introducing reports and books is useless.

When I say "hard evidence", it means firsthand material, not reports, nor books.

"United Nations Report" is only a report based on a collection of unreliable information. You say "the figure 200,000 appears in appendix", and I must say "So what?"

200,000 women ..... wow! I wonder how many soldiers were there (lol).

As to the book "A Public Betrayed", I would like to return these words to the authors.

[leonmarino]

Hello!
I am very intruiged by Origami's point of view. To make it clear: I do not support his view, but I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and his is clear and.. Well, controversial to say the least.

I haven't had the time the read all the posts, so let me ask you a few question on your first post, if that's ok Origami?

Now, I've the read the report to which you have provided us a link. You use it as some sort of evidence to make us believe that the "comfort women" were prostitutes, and were not recruited by force. However, the report states:Other reports show the "comfort girls" have been found wherever it was necessary for the Japanese Army to fight.Which pretty much means that in other cases the Japanese did force girls to provide "services". It is therefore not truthful to make a generalized statement about this issue based on this report alone.

Also, it says that:
On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.False representations? Doesn't seem like a fair deal does it? And besides that:
Many "masters" made life very difficult for the girls by charging them high prices for food and other articles.Hm.. I fail to see how one could perceive this as "normal" prostitution.

If I may put this debate into a bit of perspective, even if it was very common to prostitute at that time, that doesn't mean that Japan hadn't done anything wrong. Wrongful conduct is often recognized only in hindsight; at the time it might have seemed like a normal thing to do, but it can still be recognized as a crime against humanity later.

For example, take the whole slavery business in between Europe/Africa/America. At the time it was pretty common to recognize negroid people as "lesser beings" and treat them as slaves. Moreover, the Africans themselves seemed to cooperate; a Ghanian historian Akosua Adoma Perbi has said that "slavery became an important part of the Asante state right from its inception" and that after abolition, in 1872, the king of Asante wrote to the British monarch asking for the slave trade to be renewed. [Source=The Economist, February 24 Issue, p59-61]

So even though there was some participation from the African side, as many families sold their childeren "willingly" it is still considered "wrong" to trade slaves. That is because we as human beings have, starting in the Enlightenment period, striving for a more liberal (free) and equality-based global society. This is what is considered "normal". I say "willingly" because many were having financial troubles or were lured under false representations.. Sound familiar?

Now, the Japanese have done some things during WWII, which are considered now as inhumane, according to these priciples of basic human rights. Although the magnitude of the problem is certainly debateable, there is little doubt as to the wrongful conduct of Japanese occupiers in Asia during WWII.

PS: I find the facts about the US "amusement house" in Japan and the UN's request for similar services in South Korea very interesting. Do you have any reliable sources for that? I am also quite stunned by your story about the Dutch prostitutes. I wish to see some sources for that too if you will. Thanks in advance.

[ecampbell07]

[QUOTE=origami;449001]
Forced by whom?
By Japanese military? -- No jokes, please.
QUOTE]

Actually, yes, the Japanese military. After prostitutes were not enough, the military resorted to deception and kidnapping. The majority of the women in the comfort system were between the ages of 13 and 17... How could they have gone willingly? They were only children. Every account that I have read and every testimony that I have witnessed have all pointed to kidnapping and sexual slavery. I believe the testimonies of these 80-year old women, and the testimonies of the Japanese soldiers who admitted to raping the women. History distortion seems to be getting out of control when it comes to this issue. The Japanese government held a sexual slavery system, even though they destroyed the evidence after the war, some of the women survived, and thus this story and history survived.

[Han Chan]

Hello!
I am very intruiged by Origami's point of view. To make it clear: I do not support his view, but I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and his is clear and.. Well, controversial to say the least.

Dear leonmarino

As origami is so unsensitive towards womon who have been abused, you obviously assume that origami must be a male. However, origami, who have only posted viewpoints regaring this thread, claims to be female. I think that origami is not what he claims to be. I think you are trying to argue whith one of the extreme right-wingers who enjoys making everyone upset by posting inflamatory propoganda in this discussion forum. I would not be surprised if origami is actually a person who was allready banned from this site. Though I like most other are provoked by people like origami, I suggest that a discussion with such people are actually giving them more credit than they deserve.

[leonmarino]

Dear leonmarino
As origami is so unsensitive towards womon who have been abused, you obviously assume that origami must be a male. However, origami, who have only posted viewpoints regaring this thread, claims to be female. I think that origami is not what he claims to be. I think you are trying to argue whith one of the extreme right-wingers who enjoys making everyone upset by posting inflamatory propoganda in this discussion forum. I would not be surprised if origami is actually a person who was allready banned from this site. Though I like most other are provoked by people like origami, I suggest that a discussion with such people are actually giving them more credit than they deserve.Oops!! I didn't see that Origami is female indeed.. Sumimasen!! :relief:
Thanks for your concern though Han Chan. It's just that I like a good/controversial discussion, and I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt.. For as long as that lasts of course.

[hanachan]

PS: I find the facts about the US "amusement house" in Japan and the UN's request for similar services in South Korea very interesting.

In Japan GHQ ordered to build "amusement house" for GIs.
many rapes were occurred by US soldiers under occupation.
"amusement" was necessary to protect Japanese women.
add ---
Japanese women worked there for other Japanese women.
-------
I don't know why most of you ignore this fact.
I don't know Origami. But I'm sure that Origami is a woman. Because I'm a woman, too. though you never understand the reason that we are here...

[heliobacter]

I feel kinda bad after reading some of the posts that were made in this thread.

I just don't get the point of playing down evidenced atrocities. Is our collective progress since these terrible times really that little?

In my country and in Germany, there are quite a lot of people who tend to look away when it comes to historical facts about WWII. Old people whose brains are still infected with Nazi-propaganda (I've met a lot of them recently) pass down their way of thinking to younger generations, who still think their grandfathers who served in the SS were heroes.

Twisted world...

[KirinMan]

Obeika,
Introducing reports and books is useless.
When I say "hard evidence", it means firsthand material, not reports, nor books.
"United Nations Report" is only a report based on a collection of unreliable information. You say "the figure 200,000 appears in appendix", and I must say "So what?"
200,000 women ..... wow! I wonder how many soldiers were there (lol).
As to the book "A Public Betrayed", I would like to return these words to the authors.

In that case since I provided you with this and you refused it out of hand I will now ask you origami,

Show me hard evidence that it didn't happen

[origami]

Obeika,

I have been waiting for you to say these words -- "show me hard evidence that it didn't happen"

Probatio diabolica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Probatio diabolica (Latin: "devil's proof") is a legal requirement to achieve an impossible proof. Where a legal system would appear to require an impossible proof, the remedies are reversing the burden of proof, or giving additional rights to the individual facing the probatio diabolica.

[origami]

To ecampbell07

I am not yet allowed to post URLs here, so I'll quote --

---(quote)

Report No. 49: Japanese POW Interrogation on Prostitution.

UNITED STATES
OFFICE OF WAR INFORMATION

Psychological Warfare Team
Attached to
U.S. Army Forces
India-Burma Theater
APO 689
Japanese Prisoner
of War Interrogation
Report No. 49. Place interrogated: Ledo Stockade
Date Interrogated: Aug. 20 - Sept. 10, 1944
Date of Report: October 1, 1944
By: T/3 Alex Yorichi
Prisoners: 20 Korean Comfort Girls
Date of Capture: August 10, 1944
Date of Arrival: August 15, 1994
at Stockade


PREFACE

This report is based on the information obtained from the interrogation of twenty Korean "comfort girls" and two Japanese civilians captured around the tenth of August, 1944 in the mopping up operations after the fall of Myitkyin a in Burma.
The report shows how the Japanese recruited these Korean "comfort girls", the conditions under which they lived and worked, their relations with and reaction to the Japanese soldier, and their understanding of the military situation.


A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute or "professional camp follower" attached to the Japanese Army for the benefit of the soldiers.

The word "comfort girl" is peculiar to the Japanese. Other reports show the "comfort girls" have been found wherever it was necessary for the Japanese Army to fight. This report however deals only with the Korean "comfort girls" recruited by the Japanese and attached to their Army in Burma. The Japanese are reported to have shipped some 703 of these girls to Burma in 1942.


RECRUITING;

Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy. The inducement used by these agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land, Singapore. On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.

The majority of the girls were ignorant and uneducated, although a few had been connected with "oldest profession on earth" before. The contract they signed bound them to Army regulations and to war for the "house master " for a period of from six months to a year depending on the family debt for which they were advanced ...

Approximately 800 of these girls were recruited in this manner and they landed with their Japanese "house master " at Rangoon around August 20th, 1942. They came in groups of from eight to twenty-two. From here they were distributed to various parts of Burma, usually to fair sized towns near Japanese Army camps.
Eventually four of these units reached the Myitkyina. They were, Kyoei, Kinsui, Bakushinro, and Momoya. The Kyoei house was called the "Maruyama Club", but was changed when the girls reached Myitkyina as Col.Maruyama, commander of the garrison at Myitkyina, objected to the similarity to his name.



PERSONALITY;

The interrogations show the average Korean "comfort girl" to be about twenty-five years old, uneducated, childish, and selfish. She is not pretty either by Japanese of Caucasian standards. She is inclined to be egotistical and likes to talk about herself. Her attitude in front of strangers is quiet and demure, but she "knows the wiles of a woman." She claims to dislike her "profession" and would rather not talk either about it or her family. Because of the kind treatment she received as a prisoner from American soldiers at Myitkyina and Ledo, she feels that they are more emotional than Japanese soldiers. She is afraid of Chinese and Indian troops.



LIVING AND WORKING CONDITIONS;

In Myitkyina the girls were usually quartered in a large two story house (usually a school building) with a separate room for each girl. There each girl lived, slept, and transacted business. In Myitkina their food was prepared by and purchased from the "house master" as they received no regular ration from the Japanese Army. They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places.

This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles. They were able to buy cloth, shoes, cigarettes, and cosmetics to supplement the many gifts given to them by soldiers who had received "comfort bags" from home.
While in Burma they amused themselves by participating in sports events with both officers and men, and attended picnics, entertainments, and social dinners. They had a phonograph and in the towns they were allowed to go shopping.

--- (unquote)


Please read the paragraph titled PERSONALITY, the average age was 25.

[Gentleman10]

.... so then why do we have all these old people suing the Japanese government for money then? Either there's a mega Asia conspiracy going on, or I'm pretty sure those "comfort" women were forced to do their share of "uncomfortable" favors.

[origami]

To Han Chan,

--(quote)

I think you are trying to argue whith one of the extreme right-wingers who enjoys making everyone upset by posting inflamatory propoganda in this discussion forum. I would not be surprised if origami is actually a person who was allready banned from this site.

--(unquote)

What do you want to mean by "right-wingers"?

What kind of people are "left-wingers"?

Are you a person still living in early 20th century?

Labelling people "right-wingers" or "left-wingers" is nonsense.
Calling people who just try to find the truth "revisionists" or "racist" or whatever is unfair -- not only unfair to us (grown-up men & women) but also unfair to our children.

[leonmarino]

Please read the paragraph titled PERSONALITY, the average age was 25.Hello? (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449469#post449469) I haven't received a reply on my post.. It is possible that you have not seen it, but if it's not too much trouble I would like to hear your point of view on my perspective. :relief: Thank you in advance.

And about the report, I have read it. It is based on one camp only. Even if everything written in it is true, it is not very scientific and credible to base your statements on just one report about one particular case, is it? I was hoping you could bring up more "evidence" to support your point of view.

[origami]

To ecampbell07

You quoted my previous message only partially, it would have been better for better understanding of all friends --

--(quote)

" the brutal truth is that the vast majority WERE forced. "
Forced by whom?
By Japanese military? -- No jokes, please.

Japanese military might be accused of neglecting the tragedy which was caused by poverty.

Would you Americans willingly make your government apologyze to the Japanese for the brutal truth that GHQ of US military neglected what was happening daily in the first couple of months and let US soldiers rape thousands of Japanese women (housewives, highschoolers, i.e. civilians), and forced some other Japanese women to become prostitutes during 1945 - 1952?

--(unquote)


I just added the paragraph "Would you Americans willingly ..... 1945-1952?" to have you understand the point.

Now in 2007, there is no such Japanese as really want to require US government to apologyze for what their military did in 1945 - 1952.
We know that such requirement is ridiculous.

[origami]

To leonmarino,

--(quote)

Now, I've the read the report to which you have provided us a link. You use it as some sort of evidence to make us believe that the "comfort women" were prostitutes, and were not recruited by force. However, the report states:

Quote:Other reports show the "comfort girls" have been found wherever it was necessary for the Japanese Army to fight.

Which pretty much means that in other cases the Japanese did force girls to provide "services". It is therefore not truthful to make a generalized statement about this issue based on this report alone.

--(unquote)

I do not get the point, leomarino.
Firstly -- why do you think ""comfort girls" have been found .... to fight" means "in other cases the Japanese did force girls to provide "services"?
Secondly -- the group of people who require Japanese government's further apologies insist tha Japanese military "kidnapped" girls and force them to work as "sex slaves", in the meanwhile, it seems that now you admit (at least) that the girls were "recruited."
Is my understanding correct?



--(quote)

Also, it says that:

Quote:On the basis of these false representations many girls enlisted for overseas duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen.

False representations? Doesn't seem like a fair deal does it? And besides that:

Quote:Many "masters" made life very difficult for the girls by charging them high prices for food and other articles.

--(unquote)

Just for you information, "a few hundred yen" 60 years ago is something around 10 million dollars or more, the lowest rank soldier's annual salary was 1/30 of that amount.

"False representations? Doesn't seem like a fair deal does it? " -- I have told you many times that recruitment was done by private brokers. In Korean Peninsula, brokers were Koreans. They often placed false recruitment ads and Japanese military warned them.

"Many "masters" made life very difficult for the girls by charging them high prices for food and other articles. " -- masters are civilians, not military officials.
I would be surprised if I met a prostitution house master who is nice and honest and does not exploit his/her employees.

[KirinMan]

Obeika,
I have been waiting for you to say these words -- "show me hard evidence that it didn't happen"
Probatio diabolica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Probatio diabolica (Latin: "devil's proof") is a legal requirement to achieve an impossible proof. Where a legal system would appear to require an impossible proof, the remedies are reversing the burden of proof, or giving additional rights to the individual facing the probatio diabolica.


Where's the evidence, all you are providing here is an explanation of what is considered evidence. If you looked at any of the links I provided you would have seen that the testimony was given to the United Nations, do you not accept the UN as a valid "court" of testimony.

What other proof do you need?

[origami]

Obeika,

"do you not accept the UN as a valid "court" of testimony."

NO.

The name "UN" may sound something wonderfully authorized to you, but not to most Japanese people.

Most part of UN's activities are those of country clubs (lol).

They get much money from Japan (2nd largest cash dispencer for UN) and spend time and money for junk activities.

They gave public hearing for "victims" to tell their stories only, but not a single chance for Japan's justification.

Don't you think it is totally unfair?

[leonmarino]

Firstly -- why do you think ""comfort girls" have been found .... to fight" means "in other cases the Japanese did force girls to provide "services"? My interpretation of the the sentence is as follows:
If the Japanese army would go to place X, they would have found "comfort girls" there, even if there weren't any. This would imply that the Japanese army forced local girls into this trade. I could be wrong of course and I would like to hear others' opinion on this.Secondly -- the group of people who require Japanese government's further apologies insist tha Japanese military "kidnapped" girls and force them to work as "sex slaves", in the meanwhile, it seems that now you admit (at least) that the girls were "recruited."I believe that some were "recruited" indeed, in very big inverted commas. If a girl makes an application because of whatever reason, but gets very bad treatment and "working conditions" which she didn't count on, it seems that it is not legal "recruitment". The conditions in which someone is asked to leave their homes and serve the Japanese soldiers seem so unhumane that kidnapping might be a better word to describe the process than "recruiting".Just for you information, "a few hundred yen" 60 years ago is something around 10 million dollars or more, the lowest rank soldier's annual salary was 1/30 of that amount.Were they allowed to keep their money then? I would doubt that; from the report it is very unclear how reliable the "recruiters" were. Moreover, false representations implies that there was something fishy about the whole business.

Even so, I think it is common sense nowadays that if I ask any person to work for me, promise working conditions that aren't true, and have sex with random men for money, I am not ethical. Even if I offer a million dollars."False representations? Doesn't seem like a fair deal does it? " -- I have told you many times that recruitment was done by private brokers.That doesn't make the whole thing ethically correct. If I procure my whatever resources from criminal organizations, that makes me a partner in crime too. Especially if my bargaining power is very big compared to other stakeholders; I think that the Japanese army, being a force to be reckoned with, had some power over these matters and were well aware of the malpractices.I would be surprised if I met a prostitution house master who is nice and honest and does not exploit his/her employees.Um.. So the master is to blame but the main customer isn't? By making use of this business, the Japanese army is equally to blame for the malpractices. If the Japanese army were so concerned about the conditions of these girls they could have made an end to it. But they haven't. Alas.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

To Origami,

You scare me, you really sound a very hard person.

There were also Dutch girls and young women used by Japanese military in the former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.
I have seen it with my own eyes!! We all had to stand in a row, while a Japanese officer took some of the girls and young women away, they were loaded on a truck and brought to Semarang in Central Java. One of the young women had to leave her 2 year old girl behind her in our camp BB 10.
Can you feel her pain?

The Japanese military overseas didn't behave as they would have in their own country, Japan. I am a eyewitness.

[pipokun]

When higher ranked officials came to know the terrible situation in Indonesia, they closed the brothel 2 month after it opened.
And the soldiers were persecuted after the war.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Pipokun,

I fully agree with you!
Sitting around the table and talk about what happened is fine with me.
I also have a friend whose mother (Dutch) fell in love with a Japanese officer,
this friend is their love child. He was born in my camp Banyu Biru 10

I can see the difference between Japanese war criminals and the Japanese people.
Many countries have or had war criminals, just admit it.
And up till today young women all over the world are raped by a beastly type of men.

[origami]

Hi, Elizabeth
To Origami,
You scare me, you really sound a very hard person.
There were also Dutch girls and young women used by Japanese military in the former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia.
I have seen it with my own eyes!! We all had to stand in a row, while a Japanese officer took some of the girls and young women away, they were loaded on a truck and brought to Semarang in Central Java. One of the young women had to leave her 2 year old girl behind her in our camp BB 10.
Can you feel her pain?
The Japanese military overseas didn't behave as they would have in their own country, Japan. I am a eyewitness.

Have you read all my previous comments?
I know the case in Indonesia.

"I am a eyewitness" -- so you did testify at the military court in Semarang where 11 Japanese officers were sentenced to death (one official) and 15-20 years in prison (rest of them), didn't you?

Japan already underwent trials and accepted judgement 60 years ago, and still Dutch women are requiring further official apologies.

Do you think it fair?
Can you try one same person for one same crime twice, three times, four times ...... forever in you country?

[caster51]

There were also Dutch girls and young women used by Japanese military in the former Dutch East Indies, today Indonesia
I think Dutch have many testimony about that.
why does not open the testimonies at that time to Public
a documment of Dutch 1n 1994, Dutch Department of Foreign Affairs reported
that western women(200~300 women) were working at brothel as a confort woman voluntary
and, some dutch comfort women was forced by Local agents.
Japanese army exposed that and this brothel was closed by the Japanese army
スマラン事件(Semarang incident)
http://www.interq.or.jp/sheep/clarex/essays/essays04.html
and those ppl concerned were ecxuted by Dutch though they were innocent
why does not Dutch offer the record of that trial?
I think Dutch can not because It is disadvantageous for Durch gervnment
and one note, their body odor was too smell for Japanese soldier...(sorry)
that brothel was always closed ......

[caster51]

one thing, I cant understand why Dutch ppl complained about that.
what were they doing there?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Hi, Elizabeth
Have you read all my previous comments?
I know the case in Indonesia.
"I am a eyewitness" -- so you did testify at the military court in Semarang where 11 Japanese officers were sentenced to death (one official) and 15-20 years in prison (rest of them), didn't you?
Japan already underwent trials and accepted judgement 60 years ago, and still Dutch women are requiring further official apologies.
Do you think it fair?
Can you try one same person for one same crime twice, three times, four times ...... forever in you country?

Origami,

I was a eyewitness of what happened around me, and I was then 17 years old. I was not one of the unlucky girls who were taken away out of our camp BB10 to Semarang.

Apologies? I think a simple acknowledgement of what happened to the poor "comfort women" is much better. It should be a simply acknowledged by the Japanese government. Denying facts is not clever.

Every war is wrong in my eyes. There are also no innocent governments in my eyes, there are only innnocent peoples.
I can only tell you that I have seen many ugly things during the Japanese occupation, but then mostly as from February 1944. Before that date we were under the controle of Japanese citizens. As from 1944 all POWs and Internees came under the military rules. And since Japan began to lose the war, we "prisoners and even very small children" paid the bill.

Apologize? Once, twice, many more times? From one or two ministers, from the Japanese people? I personally don't believe in apologies.

I love history, but I don't like fantasy history, just simple facts. But just that seems the biggest problem.
One must be honest, strong and proud enough to say:"I was wrong!"

[Han Chan]

Dear Eilzabeth

I feel sad that you have been provoked to try to argue with persons who tries to deny the historical fact. It must be painful for you. I respect you so much because you, despite having suffered from japanese military agression, are able to like japanese people. I think that these people think that they are defending the japanese honour by suggesting that those who were raped and victims of human trafficking were merely prostitutes who had volunteered and well-paid. Actually they are opening old wounds for the surviving victims. They have no shame!

I know many japanese and I have personally never met anyone with this kind of insensitive attitude. I certainly hope that we are hearing the voises from a very small minority who have been encouraged by Abe's recent vague remarks. Most japanese I know are disgusted by the propoganda from extreme right - uyoku, but most are too scared to speak up. Most japanese are really intimidated by the uyoku. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku

In Demark we are mostly not willing to discuss with faschists and neo-nazis, because even discussing with them is giving them more credit than they deserve. These people are below your lewel, so I suggest that you try to ignore them.

[origami]

Elizabeth,

What you say above is beside the point.

There is a group of people (Korean, Chinese, Dutch, etc.) who insist such things as follow --

1) Japanese government at wartime must have passed "a bill" (or something like that) to set up thousands of prostitution houses and to gather women to work as prostitutes

2) There must have been an official order form that Japanese government gave to Japanese military

3) Japanese military must have kidnapped 200,000 women to fulfill the order

4) Japanese military must have forced kidnapped women to work as sex slaves

5) Therefore, Japanese government must make an official apology to the victims


And I insist --

1) Japanese government had nothing to with comfort women or prositutes

2) Japanese military knew the necessity of comfort women or prostitutes for the soldiers, but it did not plan to kidnap women, nor to recruit women

3) Japanese military let civilians (private brokers or pimps, private prostitution house owners) do the business

4) Some Korean pimps were so fraudulent that there must have been some tragic cases

5) In Indonesia (Semarang), several Japanese soldiers violated military discipline and forced Dutch women to become prostitutes -- which was an exceptional case, Japanese military shut down the house two months later and punished the soldiers at the same time -- all these military officials were accused after war and were pronounced heavy sentences

Who is spreading fantasy?

In any way, Japanese government has made official appologies many times already for what Japan did in wartime in general.

[miwasatoshi]

When I say "hard evidence", it means firsthand material, not reports, nor books
What is wrong with this statement?

These events happened sixty years ago. Most of the participants, willing, or unwilling, are dead. Any further firsthand material will be reported in ... guess what? Reports and books.
This is perhaps one of the most self-serving arguments I've seen in a long time. This is quite clearly factual material and clearly states that the Japanese Army did bad things in the past. This is not exactly a shock to anyone: the Bataan Death March and the Rape of Nanking are pretty well documented.

Is this an indictment of modern Japanese culture? Not directly, no. So why can't origami just admit that what happened in the past DID happen, so we can move on and try to ensure it doesn't happen again?

As far as origami's incredulousness over the number of 200,000 comfort women: by 1945, the Imperial Japanese Army had activated FIVE MILLION MEN in 145 Divisions. Not to mention the (by then largely moribund) Imperial Japanese Navy. 200,000 prostitutes is hardly a disproportionate number when put into proper perspective.

Finally: trying to denounce other nations' governments does not inherently strengthen one's argument; it simply means other governments are guilty of the same sins as your own, just in different quantities.

It is true that Japan has apologized for past deeds, and that is fine, but when some people start claiming the deeds for which Japan has apologized for didn't happen, that's where the trouble is.

[Han Chan]

So far no japanese PM has had the decency of regretting or even acknowledging the involvement of the japanese military involvement in running brothels:
"Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made clear Monday he will not offer a fresh apology on the wartime "comfort women" issue even if Japan is urged to do so by a U.S. congressional resolution.
"The resolution contains mistakes of fact," Abe told the Upper House Budget Committee when asked about his intentions....
"Even if it is passed, it does not mean we will apologize," Abe said.
He said he basically stands by a 1993 government statement that acknowledged the military's role in forcing the women to work in wartime brothels.
The statement, by then Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono, admitted the women were recruited through "coercion." The statement offered the government's "sincere apologies and remorse."
Abe on Monday went on to say that "there was no coercion in such ways as military authorities bursting into homes and taking women out" to brothels.
He noted "there were cases in which brokers serving as middlemen in effect coerced them. "So I think there was coercion in a broad sense."
(IHT/Asahi: March 6,2007) "
"The 1993 apology was not approved by the parliament. It came after a Japanese journalist uncovered official defense documents showing the military had a direct hand in running the brothels -- a role Tokyo until that point had denied."
(AP) March 7, 2007.

[Gentleman10]

It is true that Japan has apologized for past deeds, and that is fine, but when some people start claiming the deeds for which Japan has apologized for didn't happen, that's where the trouble is.


...sofar I think this is the most intelligible post I've read in this argument. I can't agree with you more.

[KirinMan]

Obeika,
"do you not accept the UN as a valid "court" of testimony."
NO.
The name "UN" may sound something wonderfully authorized to you, but not to most Japanese people.
Most part of UN's activities are those of country clubs (lol).
They get much money from Japan (2nd largest cash dispencer for UN) and spend time and money for junk activities.
They gave public hearing for "victims" to tell their stories only, but not a single chance for Japan's justification.
Don't you think it is totally unfair?

You know what, forget it, I hope you enjoy living in your plastic bubble, because the rest of the world is just going to pass you by.

Originally Posted by miwasatoshi


It is true that Japan has apologized for past deeds, and that is fine, but when some people start claiming the deeds for which Japan has apologized for didn't happen, that's where the trouble is.

This truly does fit.

[hanachan]

About the issue of Comfort Women, totally I stand by origami. Her opinion is not a minority in Japan.
Obeika, UN is a victorious nations régime. As far as veto is accepted, UN works only for the profit of some countries. The US uses it enough.

[KirinMan]

About the issue of Comfort Women, totally I stand by origami. Her opinion is not a minority in Japan.
Obeika,

First off just because you may or may not be Japanese doesn't give you the right to talk for the majority of the country. I would never be so bold to say the same thing about my own country, you are showing your arrogance.

You have your opinion, but if by the off chance that the "majority" feel this way it is 100% due to a lack of education in schools about Japanese war crimes and Japanese wartime activities.

I doubt that tha majority are aware of all sides of the issue and only know about what their government feeds them, they can not make an honest judgement or opinion without seeing it from all sides of the story. Many/most(?) Japanese in my opinion are mostly ignorant on this subject.

Your arguments are similar to saying that you are innocent because of your ignorance.

How long do you plan to stay ignorant of what the rest of the world sees as fact?

How long are you going to live in your coccoon of belief that Japan is innocent?

[hanachan]

First off just because you may or may not be Japanese doesn't give you the right to talk for the majority of the country. I would never be so bold to say the same thing about my own country, you are showing your arrogance.
You have your opinion, but if by the off chance that the "majority" feel this way it is 100% due to a lack of education in schools about Japanese war crimes and Japanese wartime activities.
I doubt that tha majority are aware of all sides of the issue and only know about what their government feeds them, they can not make an honest judgement or opinion without seeing it from all sides of the story. Many/most(?) Japanese in my opinion are mostly ignorant on this subject.
Your arguments are similar to saying that you are innocent because of your ignorance.
How long do you plan to stay ignorant of what the rest of the world sees as fact?
How long are you going to live in your coccoon of belief that Japan is innocent?

Thanks. Try to change "Japan/Japanese" to "the US/Americans". It's not so unnatural.
By the way do you ignore the latter half of my post?
Obeika, UN is a victorious nations régime. As far as veto is accepted, UN works only for the profit of some countries. The US uses it enough.

[KirinMan]

Thanks. Try to change "Japan/Japanese" to "the US/Americans". It's not so unnatural.


Here is where I stop replying to you on this topic, you know very well that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

By the way do you ignore the latter half of my post?


Geez no, hanachan, I choose not to reply because it would be useless discussing this topic any further with you or origami, I've had fun with you two but to continue the discussion would be the same as banging my head against a wall, and I am not a masochist. Oh don't forget I could be asking you the exact same thing here, wink wink:okashii:

Just remember this, the preponderance of the evidence supports the claims of the "comfort women". You can stay living in ignorant bliss and go on with your daily life secure in your opinion that Japan did no wrong, but please don't be one bit surprised or shocked when countries like Korea, China, Phillipines etc, continue to distrust Japan and the Japanese Government for refusing to acknowledge what was infact a truly horrific past.
Bye.......:-)

[pipokun]

...
Just remember this, the preponderance of the evidence supports the claims of the "comfort women".
...

What is the preponderance of the evidence?

The government does not deny the existance of brothels at all. As the Korean testimony in the interview during the war, Korean people would have killed Japanese if Japanese had kidnapped Korean women.
Composite Report on three Korean Navy Civilians List No. 78,dated 28 March 1945,"Special Questions on Koreans"(U.S.National Archives)
太平洋の戦場で会った朝鮮人慰安婦は、全て志願者か、 両親に売られた者ばかりである。もし女性達を強制動員 すれば、老人も若者も朝鮮人は激怒して決起し、どんな 報復を受けようと日本人を殺すだろう。

[KirinMan]

Korean people would have killed Japanese if Japanese had kidnapped Korean women.


In an occupied country with the occupying army being Japanese do you actually expect people here to believe this?


What is the preponderance of the evidence?


Read through the links I posted in a previous post on this thread. There's your evidence.

[pipokun]

In an occupied country with the occupying army being Japanese do you actually expect people here to believe this?
Read through the links I posted in a previous post on this thread. There's your evidence.
It was the American who interviewed the Koreans then.
Composite Report on three Korean Navy Civilians List No. 78,dated 28 March 1945,"Special Questions on Koreans"(U.S.National Archives)

I think it was the same military brothel as American, Australia or other countries during the WWII. Sorry I am wrong, but I've never heard of any supports for Chinese or Indian women in the US brothel in China.
I am not playing blame games here.

[KirinMan]

I am not playing blame games here.

Noone said otherwise, but you have to admit there is a whole lot of testimony against the Japanese military for what they did.

I thinks its kind of hard not to notice if a ton of bricks drops on your head.

[Han Chan]

So far no japanese PM has had the decency of regretting or even acknowledging the involvement of the japanese military involvement in running brothels:
"Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made clear Monday he will not offer a fresh apology on the wartime "comfort women" issue even if Japan is urged to do so by a U.S. congressional resolution.
"The resolution contains mistakes of fact," Abe told the Upper House Budget Committee when asked about his intentions....
"Even if it is passed, it does not mean we will apologize," Abe said.....
(AP) March 7, 2007.

By searching Japanese MOFA's webpage, I now realize that former PM Koizumi actually did write a letter of apology: (http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/index.html#issue):

"
Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women

The Year of 2001

Dear Madam,

On the occasion that the Asian Women's Fund, in cooperation with the Government and the people of Japan, offers atonement from the Japanese people to the former wartime comfort women, I wish to express my feelings as well.

The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women.

As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future.

I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations.

Furthermore, Japan also should take an active part in dealing with violence and other forms of injustice to the honor and dignity of women.

Finally, I pray from the bottom of my heart that each of you will find peace for the rest of your lives.

Respectfully yours,

Junichiro Koizumi
Prime Minister of Japan
"
I now respect Koizumi much more than before! This, though, makes the stance of Abe even more pathetic. "One step forwards and two steps back".

[KirinMan]

Han Chan thanks for finding that and sharing it here, it is an official recognition that "something" happened and from what it sounds like a truly heartfelt apology. To the naysayers here on this thread it should also be noted that this is from the Japan Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but I suppose they will find some excuse to not believe it or to downplay it's significance.

Mmmm you are right about Abe, makes him out to look like an arse, particularly since he was Koizumi's hand-picked sucessor.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Han Chan.

I am more than pleased with your research work! I never read that letter before, so I have forwarded this letter from the former Prime Minister of Japan to my group here in the Netherlands "The Foundation of Japanese Honorary Debts"

And YES, you are so right by saying; There are good and bad people everywhere! I learned that long ago.
Han Chan, a Japanese doctor saved my sister's life in May 1943 and I saw a Japanese soldier crying his heart out in August 1945, he had lost his whole family through a big bomb, so the other Japanese told us in broken English and Malay.
I learned very young that nothing is just black and white in life.

[pipokun]

Noone said otherwise, but you have to admit there is a whole lot of testimony against the Japanese military for what they did.
I thinks its kind of hard not to notice if a ton of bricks drops on your head.
As I told you, the govenment did not deny the existence of the brothels.
Buy why were they the war crime?
No bricks are needed, but just your explanation.

[KirinMan]

As I told you, the govenment did not deny the existence of the brothels.
Buy why were they the war crime?
No bricks are needed, but just your explanation.

Do you consider rape to be a crime?

Did you read my reply in a previous message? Look through the links and my answer is/are contained there.:-)

[pipokun]

Do you consider rape to be a crime?
Did you read my reply in a previous message? Look through the links and my answer is/are contained there.:-)
Of course, it is a crime, but what about prostitution or military brothel?

Weary of war but ready for action: American soldiers set their sights on delights of Rio
http://www.guardian.co.uk/brazil/story/0,,1992939,00.html
Backstory
In the 1950s, during the Korean war, prostitutes known as "military comfort women" flocked to "rest and recreation" sites in South Korea to earn money from troops. During the Vietnam war, Bangkok was at the centre of a huge influx of soldiers, with troops dubbing rest and recreation excursions "intoxication and intercourse breaks". Saigon became a nightlife hotspot in the mid-1970s as GIs kicked back in bars and brothels, spawning huge prostitution and drugs industries. Little has been written about the sexual escapades of troops based in Iraq, although reports have emerged of at least one brothel in Baghdad's Green Zone. Some suggest that because Iraq is Islamic, and because of high danger levels outside camps, soldiers have looked to other regions. The increase in women soldiers is also cited as a reason for a decline in war zone "comfort stations".
To be fair, the UK also ran the brothel.

[diceke]

Here is where I stop replying to you on this topic, you know very well that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

wtf?

There is nothing wrong with comparing and contrasting issues in different countries. I've seen some people compare Japan and Germany, but they usually refuse to compare Japan to their own country, especially if that highlights negative things in their country.

These history issues are not unique to Japan, and if anyone believes otherwise, he is in blissful ignorance.

[KirinMan]

Of course, it is a crime, but what about prostitution or military brothel?


I guess I would have to look at from the point of 1930's or 1940's law in China, Korea, and the Phillipines. Since the areas that the brothel's were in were occupied territories under Japanese martial law at the time I would be willing to bet that they were not illegal back then right?

Japanese law even today is rather "grey" in the area of that particular sector of the "service" industry.

But that's not really the point is it, the point is how 200,000 or so of these women were forced into servitude and in many cases brutalized, raped, and murdered.

It's like saying that posession is 9/10's of the law, once the girls/women were in the custody of the brothel there was no longer any "crime" committed. When in fact the majority of the women were coerced into "working" there,
then again it was during war time and who did these women have to take their case up for them back then? Not to mention the psycological fear of their captor's.

No matter how many "volunteered" for the work I can not in my mind imagine 200,000 women volunteering to "service" an occupying army during wartime, can you?

[leonmarino]

I kind of left this thread because I felt that my questions were being answered only half. But I have now found an interesting clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maqtE68FlY8&NR)on YouTube!!

Apart from the hilarious man from Benin (I was pleasantly impressed by his Japanese!!), I think the woman from South Korea makes a good point about why Japanese politicians "have to keep apologizing"; it's because there seems to be no one agreed upon view on Japan's historical past with regards to its wrong-doings in Asia during WW2.

One of the presenters doesn't seem very open to her ideas though.. Saying Korean politicians do the same!? Scary stuff.. :relief:

ps: Try to see through the ridiculous costumes the presenters (including Takeshi Kitano) are wearing!! :blush:

[CBT1979]

Unlike Koizumi, Abe adressed an official apology about the comfort women who "served" the japanese troops overseas during WW2.
I really say much respect to Abe for handling this issue much more apropriate than his predecessor.
Of course the people who want the apology from Japan's government have not always the same intention. Some just want the fact stay true in history, some want compensation.
I don't think that most people especially the still living comfort women want Japan or any other nation apologize every year publicly, but don't want the history textbooks telling something completely different or played down.
The Tenno has not played down this and other issues related to the pacific war and Abe is on the right way to repair the relationships with Japan's neighbours. I cannot do much but pray that Abe's foreign policy succeeds to build friendship and harmony in the region with the leaders of the neighbours.

[origami]

Han Chan

--(quote)
I now respect Koizumi much more than before! This, though, makes the stance of Abe even more pathetic. "One step forwards and two steps back".
--(unquote)

Mr Koizumi wrote this letter of apology, but did not and still does not admit the fiction either. The fiction that Japanese military "kidnapped 200,000 women" and "forced them to work as sex slaves".

Mr Koizumi only inherited Kono Statement 1993 which was based on interviews with 16 ex-comfort women. At the interview in 1993, no request for hard evidence, no request for third party opinion, no questioning were accepted.

The sentence in Mr Koizumi's letter referring to Japanese military ("with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time") does NOT mean that Japanese military kidnapped women and made them sex slaves.

Please read all my previous posts.
In my March 22 post, I wrote --

--(quote)
4)What Japanese military did were -- warning brokers against illegal or dishonest recruitment, ordering housemasters (employers) to keep his/her house in good sanitary conditions, sending doctors occasionally to houses , taking care of safe transportation of the women. All these were done for the health and safety of soldiers and civilians (prostitutes and housemasters, etc.) outside of Japan. Nothing blamable!
--(unquote)



Anyway, now that you have found Mr Koizumi's letter of apology, you admit requiring further apologies is unfair, don't you?

[caster51]

I think the woman from South Korea makes a good point about why Japanese politicians "have to keep apologizing"; it's because there seems to be no one agreed upon view on Japan's historical past with regards to its wrong-doings in Asia during WW2.
about korean matter,
at first ,korea requested the Annexation.
some information about indonasia at that time
Asian History: Indonesian / Malay Perspective on Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1_bBEmihnQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UPNsOvfV-E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjSxpu7Z2co

Their purposes,It keeps apologizing to Japan.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=431383

[KirinMan]

about korean matter,
at first ,korea requested the Annexation.
some information about indonasia at that time
Asian History: Indonesian / Malay Perspective on Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1_bBEmihnQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UPNsOvfV-E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjSxpu7Z2co
Their purposes,It keeps apologizing to Japan.
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=431383

Ok so Indonesia threw off Dutch colonial rule, but all that ended up happening is they ended up trading one overlord who happened to be "white" to a Japanese one. This really isn't related to the comfort women issue.

[E. Yamazaki]

I have never really understood why japan is so determined to not apologize for what happened but I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with that Japan was just imitating all the previous colonial period countries. Who too never apologized for all the autrocities that happened in Africa and through out Asia.
Couldn't part of the reason be the view that many Japanese have against Koreans? That Koreans are inferior and unwanted, and so don't deserve an apology?

[caster51]

Couldn't part of the reason be the view that many Japanese have against Koreans? That Koreans are inferior and unwanted, and so don't deserve an apology?
NO, they wanted...
According to Mirror for Americans, Japan by Mears, Helen
Professor Treat commments,".....every step in the process was 'correct' diplomatically, and the final annexation was consummated by....treaty , nor proclamation."As a matter of record, Japan7s annexation of Korea had considerably more "legal" documentation than most of the empire-building of the Western Powers.
why does japan need to apology
japan did not inveded them at that time?.
it was M&A with peace between japan and korea that korean wanted

[caster51]

in indonasia ,the evidence is ....Japanese army made a brothel close because there was a violation that they were forced.....

[KirinMan]

in indonasia ,the evidence is ....Japanese army made a brothel close because there was a violation that they were forced.....

There is nothing in those video's that talk about brothel's at all.

[caster51]

There is nothing in those video's that talk about brothel's at all.
Dont you know Semarang incident that we discussed?

[KirinMan]

Dont you know Semarang incident that we discussed?

Are you refering to the time period in August 1945 after the Japanese surrender.

[caster51]

Are you refering to the time period in August 1945 after the Japanese surrender

no,
I mean its details and cause

[KirinMan]

no,
I mean its details and cause
btw we never discussed this topic. :-)

[caster51]

[QUOTE=origami;449784]Elizabeth
5) In Indonesia (Semarang), several Japanese soldiers violated military discipline and forced Dutch women to become prostitutes -- which was an exceptional case, Japanese military shut down the house two months later and punished the soldiers at the same time -- all these military officials were accused after war and were pronounced heavy sentences

Japanese army exposed that and this brothel was closed by the Japanese army
I think it is enough
Dutch Gernernment should offer the doccument about that.

Dutch investigation...at that time
It is necessary to have licensed it for the installation of the brothel.
In addition, saying that women who worked then were working voluntarily was a precondition.
and Their(comfort women) voluntary signatures were also necessary.

[Sukotto]

I wonder if backwards male chauvinism, which seems to be present in all too many societies, including the US, has anything to do with the time it has taken on this.


Afterall, it took decades after Nuremburg and the definition of genocide to make systematic rape a crime against humanity. (see below) Why? Surely our fathers and grandfathers couldn't have such low views of women? I know more of previous generations have the delusion that women are somehow less than equal, but rape has got to be the next worst crime after child molestation and war.

In a judgment that is likely to have far-reaching implications for war crimes trials in Rwanda, Kosovo and East Timor, the tribunal elevated systematic rape from being a mere violation of the customs of war to one of the most heinous war crimes of all - a crime against humanity.
Friday, February 23, 2001 in the Guardian of London (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0224-02.htm)

[caster51]

but rape has got to be the next worst crime after child molestation and war.
rape was naturaly prohibited by all....:wave:
japanese amy's rule was too stric....

[hanachan]

Afterall, it took decades after Nuremburg and the definition of genocide to make systematic rape a crime against humanity.
It is caused by the fact that the Allied Forces was excluded from a prosecution object of war crimes of WW2.
It was not able to ignore a crime of Soviet Red Army troops if it took up a gang rape at Nuremburg trial.

[Sukotto]

oops.

i misread the post just above.
so i cut out the bad parts and left some more meaningless rambling.




winners justice...

war crimes are committed during every war.
The US was not charged for mass murder for Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Winners' justice no doubt.
Plus the trials after the war didn't go all the
way through, as the US helped a number of Japanese war criminals, including
'kuromaku' right-wing ultranationalist Kodama Yoshio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Kodama) & fascist Sasakawa Ryoichi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryoichi_Sasakawa), and Nazi war criminals via the infamous Operation Paperclip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_paperclip) escape persecution so they could work for the US.

[KirinMan]

winners justice...



I think that is the biggest gripe behind this entire issue. In my opinion after all these years that there are people with the attitude that Japan won the war and whatever it did during the war should be erased from history.

[hanachan]

winners justice...
war crimes are committed during every war.
The US was not charged for mass murder for Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Winners' justice no doubt.

I was surprised... because I've never seen a person from the US, who said so.
there are people with the attitude that Japan won the war and whatever it did during the war should be erased from history.

Where are they such people? Even if they are, the fact that the US is the only one nation which used A-bombs against Hiroshima and Nagasaki, could not be erased from history.
You would not answer me on this thread. I forgot.

[Han Chan]

It is caused by the fact that the Allied Forces was excluded from a prosecution object of war crimes of WW2.
It was not able to ignore a crime of Soviet Red Army troops if it took up a gang rape at Nuremburg trial.

It is estmated that the Soviet Red Army troops raped around 100,000 girls and women when they conqered Berlin in 1945. The Russians government are not willing to admit this. Even though the Soviet Army were on the winning side their abuses are not forgotten!

Because rape used to be a viscious integrated part of warfare the japanese were very fearfull of the US soldiers in the days leading up to the occupation in 1945. Though, some abuse did take place, the US soldiers were far more diciplined.

[Goldiegirl]

Rape is less about sex and more about power and control. It has occured on every "side" of every war. Terrible for women, yet somehow I think inevitable. Very sad indeed...

[KirinMan]

Here is a link to a news report about this issue, dated Friday, March 30, 2007
taken from the article;

Japan to Revise Books on WWII Suicides (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Mar30/0,4670,JapanForcedSuicides,00.html)

Abe set off a storm earlier this month when he claimed there was no evidence that Japan's army forced women to work in military brothels during World War II. Historians estimate up to 200,000 women, mostly Chinese and Korean, were forced into prostitution by Japanese soldiers.

Most textbooks approved Friday touched on Japan's wartime brothels but did not discuss whether women were coerced or whether the Japanese military was involved, Kyodo News agency reported.

Abe's comments backtracked from a 1993 government admission that the Japanese military forced women into prostitutionOn Monday, he tried to quell the backlash with an apology to the victims, but stopped short of acknowledging that Tokyo forced thousands into sexual slavery.

On Saturday, a private Japanese fund set up in 1995 to help the so-called "comfort women" will expire, wrapping up a mission seen as falling short of expectations.

The Asian Women's Fund, created to heal wounds from Japan's often brutal expansion through the region during the war, provided 285 women in the Philippines, South Korea and Taiwan with $17,800 each in compensation, helped set up nursing homes for former Indonesian sex slaves and offered medical assistance to some 80 Dutch victims.

But many victims rejected the aid because it neither came directly from the government nor was accompanied by an official apology. The fund will disband Saturday with the dismantling of the nursing home program in Indonesia, its last project.

The head of the fund, Haruki Wada, acknowledged the results of the effort "were rather ambiguous, but it was the best we could do at that time."

"As far as Japan's reconciliation with Asian neighbors is concerned, our achievement was insufficient," he said.



So to you naysayers here if Japan wasn't guilty of anything why did they even attempt to do anything?

[caster51]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17770834/site/newsweek/
it's simple because of Political or diplomatic card for Zero-Sum game


http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/24_S4.pdf

[KirinMan]

Thanks for providing these links as well, although I highly doubt that was your intent.


Tokyo Is All Alone’ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17873489/site/newsweek/)

[caster51]

then it is meanigless and it is like a parallel lines.:blush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K08SmNrW2gY
and this card will be gone
Tokyo Is All Alone’:cool:
it looks like something old propagandas of WAR not based on Objective evidence

[origami]

I am still not qualified to paste URLs here, I quote good entries of good blogs authored by foreigners.

The following is March 3 entry of the blog "Occidentalism" by Matt (an Australian who lives in Sydney, he can write/read Hangul, Chinese, Japanese, too)


===========Quote

Comfort woman gives contradictionary testimony

Recently there have been hearings in the US house of representatives to condemn Japan for its involvement in the comfort women system. A Korean woman that claims to be a former comfort woman appeared before the house of representatives to give testimony. The woman, Lee Yong-soo, gave testimony that in the house of representatives that contradicts her earlier testimony.

Excerpt of testimony in the house of representatives -

In the autumn of 1944, when I was 16 years old, my friend, Kim Punsun, and I were collecting shellfish at the riverside when we noticed an elderly man and a Japanese man looking down at us form the hillside. The older man pointed at us with his finger, and the Japanese man started to walk towards us. The older man disappeared, and the Japanese beckoned to us to follow him. I was scared and ran away, not caring about what happened to my friend. A few days later, Punsun knocked on my window early in the morning, and whispered to me to follow her quietly. I tip-toed out of the house after her. I lift without telling my mother. I was wearing a dark skirt, a long cotton blouse buttoned up at the front and slippers on my feet. I followed my friend until we met the same man who had tried to approach us on the riverbank. He looked as if he was in his late thirties and he wore a sort of People’s Army uniform with a combat cap. Altogether, there were five girls with him, including myself.

Testimony given previously -

Lee Yong-soo, 78, a South Korean who was interviewed during a recent trip to Tokyo, said she was 14 when Japanese soldiers took her from her home in 1944 to work as a sex slave in Taiwan.
“The Japanese government must not run from its responsibilities,” said Lee, who has long campaigned for Japanese compensation. “I want them to apologize. To admit that they took me away, when I was a little girl, to be a sex slave. To admit that history.”
“I was so young. I did not understand what had happened to me,” she said. “My cries then still ring in my years. Even now, I can’t sleep.”

Obviously these testimonies contradict each other, and in normal circumstances would call into doubt the validity of the claim of being forced to be a sex slave. However, in the comfort woman controversy, anyone that even dares to doubt the testimony of a self described former comfort woman is an evil beast that supports the sexual slavery of women. Truly examining the testimonies the comfort woman has reached level of an untouchable taboo.

Lee Yong-soo is not the only person claiming to be a former comfort woman to give contradictory testimony. There are many. From what I have read from comfort woman supporters, the contradictory testimonies can be accounted for by -

*The interviewers of the comfort women are injecting their own words into the testimony
*The women suffer from a “fragmentation” of memory, and thus unable to give a consistent chronological account of their experiences

Which testimony are we supposed to believe? Since questioning the factual validity of womens testimonies is taboo, we are expected to believe every single testimony, even those that contradict each other. I think there is some truth to some of the testimony, but I do not think that testimony should be the only way of determining what happened. Testimony should be cross referenced with existing documents to determine what really happened.

=========Unquote


Friends, I do recommend you to get an access directly to the blog "Occidentalism" yourself.


Another entry of "Occcidentalism" March 6 by Matt, an Australian blogger.

===========Quote

More contradictory comfort woman testimony

Previously I introduced the contradictory testimony of Lee Yong-Soo, who appeared before a Congressional committee considering House Resolution 121, a resolution demanding that Japan unconditionally apologise to all of the 200,000 women it is claimed were kidnapped by the Japanese army or their agents.

Apparently Lee Yong-Soo has given other, different testimonies as well.

Here is some testimony by Lee Yong-Soo from an organisation called Unerasable Memory: Making reality a formal apology and compensation by the Japanese government for the female comfort women victims of the Japanese army! , that held a national meeting in Japan in 2004, there is another, different testimony from Lee Yong-Soo. Here are the relevant quotes -

1928年韓国の大邱(テグ)生まれ。1944年、16歳の時に「 軍服みたいな服を着た男」に連行され、台湾へ。
その後、連れて行かれた先の台湾で、日本軍「慰安婦」 としての生活を3年間強制された。
In 1928 I was born in Daegu, Korea. In 1944, at 16 years old I was forcibly taken away by a man wearing a something like a military uniform to Taiwan.
After that, in Taiwan, the place I was sent I was forced to work for 3 years as a comfort woman for the Japanese army.

The war ended in 1945. How could she work for 3 years? Furthermore, during the war virtually all men wore a military style uniform.

Here is another testimony from the site of the Japanese Communist Party. The Japanese Communist Party supports the comfort women.

韓国の李容洙さん（７４）は、十四歳で銃剣をつき付け られて連れてこられたこと、拒むと殴られ、電気による 拷問を受けて死にかけたことなどを話し、「私は歴史の 生き証人として今、生きている。
74 year old Korean, Lee Yong-Soo talked about how she was taken at gun point when she was 14 years old, and when she resisted, she was beaten and tortured through electrocution to near death. Lee Yong-Soo told us “I am a living as a living witness to history”.

I can now count four different stories, all from the same person. If she is a living witness to history, then which story are we supposed to believe? What does Mike Honda, the sponsor of Congressional House Resolution 121 condemning the current Japanese government for the comfort women controversy, think of this? I do not think he cares, since all we have seen at the Congressional hearings has been one sided arguments and verbal testimony, without any sincere historical investigation.

HT to James at JapanProbe, and Tonchamon.

==========Unquote

[Han Chan]

The attempts to deny tre crimes of the past backfires.

New info are beeing unearthed by historians (Mainichi 18/4 2007):
"
Historians offer fresh evidence Japan's military forced women into brothels

Evidence submitted to the post-World War II trials of Japanese war criminals and acknowledged by the Japanese government shows its military forced Asian women into sexual slavery during the war, historians said Tuesday, citing newly unearthed documents.

The findings from the mass of evidence submitted at the 1946-1948 Tokyo war crimes tribunal contradict Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's recent denial that the imperial army directly coerced women to work as so-called "comfort women" -- remarks that triggered outrage among victims and protests from South Korea and China.

In one document dated March 13, 1946, and unearthed last year by Kanto Gakuin University historian Hirofumi Hayashi, Dutch prosecutors quote a Navy employee as saying women in occupied Indonesia were rounded up, accused of fraternizing with Japanese and abused as "a pretext to putting them in a brothel."

"I admit to have slapped these women with the flat of my hand; I also ordered them to undress," the document quotes Navy employee Shuichi Hayashi as saying. "I do not think these women were actually punishable, but their arrest ... was only a pretext to put them in a brothel."

The main verdict at the Tokyo tribunal -- accepted as valid by the Japanese government in the 1952 peace treaty between Japan and the Allied Powers -- also says the Japanese military forced women to have sex with its troops.
"These are clear cases of women being coerced into brothels," Hayashi told a press conference Tuesday. "These documents have been long known to the Japanese government. I don't know how they can ignore these."

Historians say hundreds of thousands of women, mainly from Korea, the Philippines and China, were forced into Japanese front-line brothels in the 1930s and '40s.

After decades of denial, the Japanese government acknowledged its role in wartime prostitution after another historian, Yoshiaki Yoshimi, discovered documents showing government involvement.

That led to an official -- though carefully worded -- apology in 1993, and the establishment of a nongovernment fund to pay the women limited reparations.
But right-wing Japanese politicians, who make up an important part of Abe's support base, have in recent months renewed efforts to roll back the apology.
They contend the women were professional prostitutes paid for their services and that Japanese military authorities were not directly responsible for establishing or running brothels.

Yoshimi, speaking at the same press conference, said that argument was refuted in evidence already acknowledged as valid by the Japanese government and called on Tokyo to offer an unequivocal apology, as well as compensation.

"The evidence is clear that the system of 'comfort stations' was set up, maintained and enlarged by the Japanese military itself," he said. "The government must issue a clearer message that responsibility lies with the military ... Japan should also accept legal responsibility, and offer individual compensation."

The new evidence comes as a committee of the U.S. House of Representatives considers a nonbinding resolution calling on Tokyo to fully acknowledge wrongdoing and make an unambiguous apology. Japan objects to the resolution, saying it is not based on historical fact. (AP)"

[pipokun]

[QUOTE]At a press conference, researchers will tell something about the issue.
But their logic sounds really strange to me.
They claim that they finally uncovered (UNEARTHED) the secret docoments at the Tokyo Trials and that Japan must have responsibility for the issue again becasue Japan had aleady persecuted at the Tokyo Trials.
Needless to say, Japan accepted the judgments of the trials and of other Allied War Crimes Courts both within and outside Japan. And, of course, Japan had already paid reparation to the countries concerned. And the documents are not secret at all.
PRC and Korea were not invited to the Treaty of Peace with Japan, however Japan and the countries normalised the relations with bilateral treaties.[/QUOTE

One more thing related to your country, Denmark.
The reparation also went to your country.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Evidence submitted to the post-World War II trials of Japanese war criminals and acknowledged by the Japanese government shows its military forced Asian women into sexual slavery during the war, historians said Tuesday, citing newly unearthed documents
The findings from the mass of evidence submitted at the 1946-1948 Tokyo war crimes tribunal contradict Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's recent denial that the imperial army directly coerced women to work as so-called "comfort women" -- remarks that triggered outrage among victims and protests from South Korea and China.
In one document dated March 13, 1946, and unearthed last year by Kanto Gakuin University historian Hirofumi Hayashi, Dutch prosecutors quote a Navy employee as saying women in occupied Indonesia were rounded up, accused of fraternizing with Japanese and abused as "a pretext to putting them in a brothel."
.................................
This new discovery,
More than 30 years, it is already the document which anyone can know.
I knew a summary of these court in the days of a primary schoolchild.
When I was a primary schoolchild,
There was not the word of "Comfort Women".
A document of this court,
It is evidence to deny that the Japanese government and the Japanese military headquarters "forced to have sex".
If my memory is right,
As for the soldier, it was proved that it was Japanese military discipline violation.
And the soldier was executed.

[KirinMan]

This new discovery,
More than 30 years, it is already the document which anyone can know.
I knew a summary of these court in the days of a primary schoolchild.
When I was a primary schoolchild,
There was not the word of "Comfort Women".

If that's true then why are Japanese people taking this issue up now. It isn't a foreigner that brought these documents to light, but a Japanese person.

To me at least that says a lot, and to have a newspaper like the Japan Times write an article about it, which btw I was surprised as it usually doesnt print such controversial material, means much as well.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

It isn't a foreigner that brought these documents to light, but a Japanese person.

Therefore,
I knew the trial, too.
I think that I was written in the book which I read in a library of a town.

[KirinMan]

Hiroyuki, could you answer why you think that a Japanese person is bringing this material to the forefront now?

What is your opinion about that?

[hanachan]

It isn't a foreigner that brought these documents to light, but a Japanese person.

In one document dated March 13, 1946, and unearthed last year by Kanto Gakuin University historian Hirofumi Hayashi, Dutch prosecutors quote a Navy employee as saying women in occupied Indonesia were rounded up, accused of fraternizing with Japanese and abused as "a pretext to putting them in a brothel."
His research is not only about Japan.
[Summary] “A Historical Study of the US Military’s Policy toward Prostitution”
in The Journal of The Association for Research on the Impact of War and Military Bases on Women's Human Rights, No.7, March 2005. HAYASHI, Hirofumi
[This is a summary of my article in Japanese.]　　　
林博史「アメリカ軍の性対策の歴史」 『女性・戦争・人権』第７号　
The Sexual violence and pro-prostitution attitude of the US military have been severely criticized in Japan and other countries. Several articles have recently been devoted to the study of the US military’s pro-prostitution policy in Japan during the US occupation and in the 1950s. These studies demonstrate that the US military protected and even encouraged prostitution for their soldiers. However, only few attempts have so far been made at the historical survey of the policy toward prostitution of the US military, including the military authorities in Washington DC and expeditionary forces stationed at various parts of the world. The purpose of this paper is to examine the US military’s policy toward prostitution from the beginning of the 20th century, when the US acquired overseas territories such as Guam, the Philippines and so on, to the 1950s. The War Department adopted the policy of suppressing prostitution in the early 1910s, partly because it was influenced by the progressivism in those days, but mainly because it was afraid of the spread of venereal diseases. Although this policy has been maintained for a long time, it began to waver during the Second World War because of the development of an infallible remedy for venereal diseases. Since venereal diseases came to be easily cured, the policy virtually began to be relaxed abroad while it was still maintained for public principle in order not to be blamed at home. Briefly stated, the US policy has been different from that of Japan and European countries that officially regulated prostitution.


What is Comfort wemen?
This issue has been getting more and more complicated.

[diceke]

His research is not only about Japan.

Now, I can imagine an American shouting, "Do not offend my country!":( :okashii:

[pipokun]

Hiroyuki, could you answer why you think that a Japanese person is bringing this material to the forefront now?
What is your opinion about that?
I think it is about the time for mainly Koreans to know they are used by the Japanese liberals.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Hiroyuki, could you answer why you think that a Japanese person is bringing this material to the forefront now?


His opinion is not the Japanese general will.
In addition,
Even if he does any kind of study, he is not interfered with.
His freedom of speech be guaranteed.
In Japan, your freedom of speech is guaranteed, too.:-)

[KirinMan]

His opinion is not the Japanese general will.


You know if I made a comment like, all Americans do this, or the general American will is that, people would bite my head off saying you don't talk for me. Then again I would not be so bold as to even make a comment like that regarding a divisive issue like this one.

Regarding this Comfort Women issue, and your opinion that it didn't happen, that is your opinion and probably, most likely the opinion of the hardcore ultra-nationalists. That much is obvious.

However I don't think that gives you the right to talk for the nation as a whole, there are roughly 130 million Japanese people.

[Han Chan]

His research is not only about Japan.


I don't think anyone is trying to deny that US soldiers used japanese prostitutes during and after occupation. However, it is worth remembering that the japanese authorities were directly involved in setting up facilities for the US soldiers. Appearently there were a widespread fear that the US soldiers would go on the rampage imediately after the onset of occupation. Paradoxically the recruitment of prostitutes were organised in order to protect the Japanese women.

[KirinMan]

I don't think anyone is trying to deny that US soldiers used japanese prostitutes during and after occupation.

Both of which continue on even today.

Paradoxically the recruitment of prostitutes were organised in order to protect the Japanese women.

The government probably learned that part when dealing with the "Comfort Women". It wouldn't surprise me one bit if that was the overall "Comfort Women" plan from the start, "protect the Japanese woman".

Except there weren't enough prostitutes to fill their needs, hence the problem we have today.

[pipokun]

About the military brothel, many countries incl. PRC set up and used it.

[Dutch Baka]

Anyone read the Washington post? There is a big advertisement in it about Comfort women:


A GROUP of Japanese MPs have placed a full-page advertisement in The Washington Post that denies Japan's military forced up to 200,000 women into sexual slavery during World War II.

Read here:

The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21909959-1702,00.html)
De Telegraaf (Dutch) (http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/65700391/Paginagrote_advertentie_VS:__er_waren_geen_troostm eisjes_.html?p=4,1)
The Inquirer (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view_article.php?article_id=71473)

[Bucko]

Yeah the Japanese government set up brothels in Japan after the surrender to preserve the "purity" of the Japanese blood. It recruited women saying that they would be doing an honour to their country if they worked at one of these places. Unfortunately for the Japanese government many (most?) of the soldiers simply went out and found girlfriends on their own. From what I've read it was pretty easy for them too. However this did lead to a number of single mothers raising children as the US soldiers weren't going to stay around for ever. I doubt many of them even knew they had children.

One thing I'd like to look into is what happened to these children born from US fathers. Can't say I've met too many people in their 50s or 60s here in Japan who look mixed. Wonder where they are?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Thank you so much D B. I saw it too this morning, in several Dutch papers.

Amazing, but I am not surprised.

[diceke]

One thing I'd like to look into is what happened to these children born from US fathers. Can't say I've met too many people in their 50s or 60s here in Japan who look mixed. Wonder where they are?
Good question! 800-900 of those GI babies are buried in the Negishi Foreign Cemetery.

[Bucko]

Good question! 800-900 of those GI babies are buried in the Negishi Foreign Cemetery.


Just found this:

The U.S. military's Stars and Stripes newspaper reported in its March 10, 1947 edition that by June Japanese women in the Tokyo-Yokohama district would have given birth to 14,000 Amerasian babies. Two years later Miki Sawada, the founder of the Elizabeth Sanders Home, an orphanage for mixed-race children, estimated U.S. servicemen had sired 200,000 babies in Japan. Masami Takada, head of the Children's Bureau of the Welfare Ministry, put the figure at 150,000.

When the bureau conducted a survey in spring of 1952, though, it found a total of only 5,002 Amerasian babies. The Japanese public feared that mixed-race children threatened the cherished homogeneity of Japanese society. Various "scientific" studies had demonstrated that Japanese of mixed blood were inferior to Japanese of pure blood.

...

The true number of illegitimate Amerasian children will never be known. In the early postwar years many would have died in obscurity. It was the sight of an Amerasian baby left dead on a train luggage rack in February 1947 that moved Sawada to establish the Elizabeth Sanders Home. Today, the remains of 900 Occupation babies lie in the Negishi Foreign Cemetery in Yokohama, according to Yasuharu Tamura, a historian of the city. Only three are in marked graves.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?fl20020428a1.htm

[ukuleleman]

All of you guys should watch the following video from PBS's talk show. The interview was done by Fareed Zakaria.
Just type "COMFORT WOMEN ISSUE" in the search box of YouTube.

[Bucko]

ukeleleman, you realise that Dr Shudo Higashinakano is a denier of the Nanking Massacre. You might want to be careful where you pull your "facts" from.

[ukuleleman]

My past message was unfairly deleted just because I posted a piece of hard evidence stating that the American soldiers raped more than 1000 Japanese women in their Japan occupation era, and as a result the brothels were built to prevent them to committed the crime.
It's a pity that one who deleted my message are trying to hide the fact to justify his/her own position, which is the same way the Allies had been doing after the WWII.

[KirinMan]

My past message was unfairly deleted just because I posted a piece of hard evidence stating that the American soldiers raped more than 1000 Japanese women in their Japan occupation era, and as a result the brothels were built to prevent them to committed the crime.
It's a pity that one who deleted my message are trying to hide the fact to justify his/her own position, which is the same way the Allies had been doing after the WWII.

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31007&page=6


No it wasnt deleted it was moved to the appropriate location.

[Han Chan]

Japan urged to officially apologize:

NHK:

US House committee passes comfort women resolution

A committee of the US House of Representatives has passed a resolution urging Japan to officially apologize for forcing women to provide sex to Japanese soldiers during World War Two.

The House Foreign Affairs Committee endorsed the resolution by 39 votes to 2 on Tuesday after part of its wording was softened.

The resolution, submitted by Democratic Congressman Mike Honda, urges Japan's government to officially acknowledge that the former Japanese military forced women in Asia and the Pacific islands to provide sex.

It also urges Japan to officially apologize for these acts and accept historical responsibility.

The resolution will be put to a vote at the plenary session of the House, possibly in July.

An NHK correspondent in Washington says it now seems likely that the House will approve the resolution by a large margin.

ASAHI:

U.S. pushes on 'comfort women'

WASHINGTON--Japan should apologize and accept responsibility for the sexual exploitation of thousands of "comfort women" during World War II, according to a resolution overwhelmingly adopted Tuesday by the U.S. House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee.

The resolution, known as House Resolution 121, was passed by a vote of 39-2.

In Tokyo, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and his chief Cabinet secretary, Yasuhisa Shiozaki, said that it would be inappropriate to comment on the actions of a foreign legislature.

But Abe displayed a degree of displeasure at the vote, saying, "A very large number of resolutions are passed by the U.S. Congress and I believe this resolution is just one of them."

He added that he had explained his position to Congressional leaders during his April visit.

An executive of junior coalition partner New Komeito, however, criticized the June 14 ad placed in The Washington Post by 44 Diet members and others, which in part triggered the committee vote.

"I believe restraint should be exercised on comments from the Japanese side that could lead to misunderstanding about past positions (of the Japanese government)," said Kazuo Kitagawa, New Komeito secretary-general.

Some historians claim that hundreds of thousands of women were systematically taken from their homes, mostly in Korea and China, to serve as sex slaves in the Japanese army's brothels during the war.

In Washington, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi issued a statement after the committee vote, which said in part, "I look forward to the House of Representatives passing this resolution and sending a strong message that we will not forget the horrors endured by the comfort women."

The resolution could be passed by the entire House as early as July.

Among the revisions suggested by Chairman Tom Lantos prior to the committee vote was a statement confirming the importance of the U.S.-Japan alliance.

The part of the resolution calling on the prime minister to give a public statement to serve as an official apology was also revised to state that an official apology by the prime minister would help demonstrate Japan's sincerity and remove doubt over past statements by the Japanese government.

"The government of Japan's unwillingness to offer a formal and unequivocal apology to the women forced to be sexual slaves in World War II stands in stark contrast to its role in the world today," Lantos said before the vote.

"Japan is a proud world leader and a valued U.S. ally, making its unwillingness to honestly account for its past all the more perplexing."

Lantos added: "The advertisement (in The Washington Post) suggests that these women, who were forcibly and repeatedly raped by soldiers, were engaged, and I quote, in 'licensed prostitution that was commonplace around the world at the time.' This is a ludicrous assertion totally counter to the facts."(IHT/Asahi: June 28,2007)

BY YOSHIYUKI KOMURATA

THE ASAHI SHIMBUN