Comfort Women

[thomas]

Yesterday the Tokyo High Court has rejected another appeal by a group of women that had been forced into prostitution by the Imperial Japanese Army before and during WWII. I would like to start this discussion to shed some light onto this controversial and long-debated issue. I will first post an article that had been published by the FT today and later try to elaborate on why that appeal had to be rejected according to International Law.

[thomas]

Japanese 'comfort women' lose

By Ken Hijino in Tokyo
Published: December 6 2000 17:59GMT | Last Updated: December 7 2000 12:38GMT

The Tokyo high court has rejected an appeal filed by 46 Filipinas demanding ･920m ($8.3m) in reparations from the Japanese government for being forced to provide sex to Imperial Army soldiers during the 1930s and 1940s.

The finding is in sharp contrast to the landmark settlement reached recently by Kajima, a construction company, and Chinese plaintiffs who had been demanding reparation for forced labour during the second world war, and is likely to fuel criticism of the Japanese government's handling of its responsibility for wartime aggression in Asia.

This is the second rejection of a suit brought by former comfort women - the 200,000 or so women who were allegedly forced into brothels to provide sex for Japanese soldiers during the war - in the past week and underlines the continued reluctance of Japanese courts to handle suits indicting the Japanese government for wartime crimes.

"In light of international law, individuals are not granted the right to demand compensation from the country that did them harm," said Masato Niimura, the presiding judge. The court added as grounds for rejecting the case that the period for compensation had already expired.

The two recent rulings come at a highly sensitive time, as a closely watched people's tribunal organised by international women and human right organisations is scheduled later in the week.

More than 70 surviving comfort women from seven countries, including Korea, North Korea, Taiwan, China, Indonesia, the Philippines, and the Netherlands - will testify to a group of international judges and prosecutors on crimes involving sexual violence committed against women by the Japanese military.

The indicted will include individual military officials, politicians, and the Showa emperor Hirohito. The judges are considering penalties that may involve demands to the Japanese government to pay reparations and compensation to the victims, said Patricia Viseur-Sellers, one of the chief prosecutors for the Women's International War Crimes Tribunal.

This will be, by far, the largest gathering of former comfort women, many of whom are elderly. Ten Filipina plaintiffs in the latest suit have died since the latest rejected suit was first filed in 1993.

Jan Ruff-O'Herne, one of the victims giving testimony in the people's tribunal, said, "They (the Japanese government) are all waiting for us to die, but this one will not die - I will continue to fight with other Asian comfort women. A country cannot continue without admitting the wrongs of its past."

Seven other cases involving comfort women are still in Japanese courts, but critics suggest that legal technicalities will make it difficult for a ruling in favour of the plaintiffs.

Copyright © Financial Times

[thomas]

The following article was taken from New Jersey Online (http://www.nj.com).

Japanese court says no need to compensate sex slaves

By Mari Yamaguchi
3/29/01 7:32 AM

TOKYO (AP) -- An appeals court Thursday said the Japanese government need not pay three Korean women compensation for forcing them into wartime sexual slavery as no serious constitutional violations occurred.

The Hiroshima High Court overturned a 1998 district court ruling that ordered the government to pay a total of $7,260 to the women who were forced to provide sex to Japanese soldiers during World War II.

The three women and seven people forced into slave labor filed a lawsuit with the Yamaguchi District Court in western Japan in 1992, seeking about $3.1 million in official compensation. They also demanded the government's official apology. One of the women has since died.

The plaintiffs appealed the ruling, saying the amount of compensation was too small. The government also appealed, refusing to pay compensation.

The two women said they were forced to provide sex to Japanese soldiers in Taiwan and the Chinese city of Shanghai.

In the original 1998 ruling, the Shimonoseki Branch of the Yamaguchi District Court said the Japanese government has failed to enact laws to accommodate the payment of compensation to sex slaves.

The women and their supporters hailed the ruling as a landmark decision.

On Thursday, however, presiding judge Toshiaki Kawanami said abducting the women to use them as forced laborers and sex slaves was not a serious constitutional violation.

Tokyo has acknowledged that its wartime army set up brothels and forced thousands of Koreans into military service, but it has refused to pay direct, or official compensation to individuals.

Historians say as many as 200,000 women, mostly Koreans but also Filipinos, Chinese and Dutch, were forced into sexual slavery during World War II.

Copyright ｩ AP & NJO

[Mattanza]

after a long absence,i am coming again in this forum,and i can see it is coolest than before!
I was very interested in your issue and i can say you that:
In europe i guess it is happened the same,with germans ruling allover....but no one speack about it!
We are a little sexophobic,due to our religion,i guess it is coz of this cultural lack.

[thomas]

Hi Mattanza,

nice to have you back on the forum!
:)

Back to the topic: while the German army committed the most horrible (war) crimes in WWII there was no institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army. It is sad to see that no post-war administration in Japan took over the slightest bit of responsibilty and agreed to compensate former "comfort women". Just read the verdicts quoted below...

[moyashi]

Hmmm I thought the Japanese brigade (forgot which number) was much worse than the German's in Mongolia.

I bet Japan will let this issue ride out hoping by the time they will apologize that all the women will have passed away.

I hate to say this but if Japan pays now they'll probably be hit by other groups therefore the total payments will increase.

I have never really understood why japan is so determined to not apologize for what happened but I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with that Japan was just imitating all the previous colonial period countries. Who too never apologized for all the autrocities that happened in Africa and through out Asia.

[moyashi]

Wait, I think I get it.

Nobody is willing to take responsibility for what they weren't involved in.

Normally, the head of a company will get fired when something goes wrong in a sense taking full blame and probably a healthy golden parachute along at the same time.

So if Japan apologizes the Prime Minister and heads of the military would disappear. ooops, Japan doesn't have a military so that would mean the Prime Minister. Gee, would Prime Minister Koizumi take this blame. I doubt it.

So, we have the wonderful hide the blame or pass the blame syndrome occuring.

[thomas]

Hm, taking over public functions also involves taking over responsibility for things that have happened in the past. As the events discussed here can hardly be blamed on the acting prime minister there'd be no reason for Koizumi to step down in case of an apology. Koizumi represents the nation, so it would be upon him to take such a step.

When the former German chancellor Willy Brandt kneeled down and apologized to the Polish people in 1970 nobody demanded his resignation. He wasn't personally involved in any Wehrmacht atrocities, but he represented Germany. A Japanese act of similiar importance has yet to come.

Why is it so hard for Japanese to get down on their knees and ask for forgiveness, once and for all? We're talking about symbolic value here (and yes, it means that payments would increase). Is it actually such a shame to admit a fault?

I'm under the impression that many Japanese still don't acknowledge Japan's role in WWII, hence no feeling of guilt and responsibility as for instance in Germany's case ("denazification"). Was MacArthur, already involved in the upcoming Cold War, too lenient towards Japan's ruling class?

Got carried away, sorry...
;)

[Mattanza]

Well i have thought a little on yuor lasr words thomas...i have an answer to yuor question,i could be right maybe.
i think 1970(when germans aoplogized for their crimes) was a different period,after 1985(end of cold war)the behaviour of our rich governaments is changed,now it is not time for remorses
it is not time to apologize,now it is time to go on war against terrorism my dear,and the war is not a dirty thing now too.
all this concepts spread all over by our govs,lead probably
our govs to avoid public shame on an early past war.
i hope with my bad english to be able to express myself properly.

[moyashi]

Mattanza, don't worry about your English. Even those of who are native speakers write horribly :)

@ apology

I totally think with no doubt that Japan should finally end this whole problem and just apologize. Even if it means taking out front page stories in all the newspapers of the world (well, the countries affect only would be bad either)

We have an interesting something going on here. Normally, Japanese apologize profusely even when they win. But for the war .... nada, nil, nu'tin.

Japan missed thier window of oppurtunity which Germany rightfully used. And Like Mattanza said ever since the cold war the other countries are starting to feel differently about what happened 50+ years ago.

Let's open this up a but more too. The genreal populace of Japan has no clue of what really happened in WWII, why it started, where their soliders went, why the [to-ko-tai] scacraficied themselves as kamikaze.

So, up-to and during the war you have a nation of people who were raised to follow thier emperor's orders (well, those in power at least) and throughly brainwashed that they were winning until the they heard the emperor's voice for the first time in history.

Education doesn't help either since textbooks have the war history so watered down that nobody really knows what happened compared to the Koreans who seem to have emobodied this history into their daily lives.

The war itself was basically private wars for the Navy and Army who acted basically seperately of each other with seperate agendas. The Zaibatsu [conglomerate corporations ... essentially] pushed for it too saying that Japan is a country of no natural resources. So, essentially, every form of power holding figure looked up to the countries who were busy colonizing the world up to WWI figured they had a right to the same.

I'm going to push this a little here. Did France ever apologize to England for occupying their Islands for what close to 300 years? Or did France and Napolean apologoze to Europe? Have the Americans given back to the Indians their land? Ok, I'm stretching things here but I want to put a little perspective here? I'm not sure how much of pre-WWI history Japan did know.

So, I bet it'll take more than just world pressure for an apology. Korea is pushing for the right thing. A change in how education is being presented currently. Korea, I think, wants Japan to write about all the wrongs they did. That's a little tough since I bet no country is willing to say they were 100% wrong, but it's a good push in the right direction.

Recently, on a TV program I was watching where a band made up of several different people from Asia were sent out to travel different countries in order to create a song. The Japanese boy while in Indonesia meet a 80 year old lady and learned from her what really happened at the hands of the Imperial Army during the War. He cried and cried. He just didn't know.

But, another new challenge is facing the education of the people about the war. Japan has just started a [yutori kyoiku] (simplified eductation) system. The material that needs to be studied for university has been cut by 30%.

Let's not forget that Japan was bombed twice too. I wonder how much this also has to do with the no-apology stance.

I'm just trying to shed a little light on the situation and why it isn't just a simply thing to say,"sorry" for the Japanese. IF more of populace knew about what had happened I'm sure there would be change in this stubborness about apologizing.

[shintemaster]

Well, so many different points to look into here so forgive me if I'm long winded...

@ Moyashi "Hmmm I thought the Japanese brigade (forgot which number) was much worse than the German's in Mongolia."

I would guess that you are referring to the so-called Unit 731 here. They committed some truly atrocious acts as 'research' some of which could not even pretend to be such a thing. Arguing levels of which was worse here seems pedantic, yet the sheer scale and organisation of German extermination places it in a unique place in history.

"So if Japan apologizes the Prime Minister and heads of the military would disappear. ooops, Japan doesn't have a military so that would mean the Prime Minister"

I believe you may be alluding most subtly to the fact of Japan's 'non-existent' military which has the second largest non-existent military budget in the world, only the U.S. spends more money. I believe that Japan's non-existent military is at present ranked about sixth as far as force strength.

"The war itself was basically private wars for the Navy and Army who acted basically seperately of each other with seperate agendas."

On this one I'm not exactly in agreement. The army, in Manchuria especially may have initiated certain incidents with an eye towards its own power, however to say that the army and navy were somehow running seperately from the nation I don't believe is justified. ANY war conducted with the use of a civilian based force must necessarily be involved with its populace. There were pressures, quotas and other incentives however the general populace was involved in the war to a certain extant.

In my (limited) experience politicians tend to be like children. They must be forced to apologise. The fact that individuals alive today were not directly responsible does not mitigate the responsibilty to admit past wrongs. All countries should attempt to do the same. This does not mean an indictment of that countries people. On the contrary I believe that admitting and understanding a states part in pain only strengthens the country involved as well as relations with other nations.

On a side note I think that the general war amnesia of Japanese citizens is related to and indicative of the education system in general. There are serious problems and will continue to be such until the education system undertakes some REAL reforms. I'm not necessarily a fan of education systems in many countries I've seen however Japan's system ranks very high on the list of countries that stifle questioning and true curiosity. As someone considering becoming a father with a Japanese wife I could not at the present put a child through that system.

[redthirteen]

IMHO I don't think it is as easy as a simple apology. In order for pople to wish to apologize for anything they must first come to terms with it. And from what I understand, they simply have not or even think that what they've done was wrong.

Also I've heard that any sort of blemish or blunder involving Japan has been removed from their history books in schools. Go figure.

Wasn't it General Macarthur that said you have to treat the Japanese like spoiled children, then everything makes sense? Hohum:/

[shintemaster]

Yes well, General MacArthur was not necessarily the most enlightened chap in history but...
I think the main problem with Japanese war guilt is just that, the lack of questioning and self-initiated investigation into the war. There are some Japanese who do take an active interest in this area but they are a hopelessly outnumbered minority. Dissapointing, and the recent history of Japan with regard to racial issues does not incline one to be optimistic...

choose again

[thomas]

I don't think that the Germans would have started to question and to investigate their own role in WWII without American pressure and denazification. The Japanese have been spared the same fate: they were indeed treated like spoiled children, first scolded, then hugged. Even the "bullies" were forgiven (think of Unit 731: none of its commanders or scientists were held responsible for their savageries, their research was even taken over by the Americans, the Cold War justified everything).

Bottom line: while the Germans were thoroughly reeducated after the war, the Japanese weren't forced to reflect on their past (thus no interest in war history, no feeling of guilt or responsibility towards former victims and no apologies).

[thomas]

There was this report on a former Unit 731 member on JT today:

Ex-Unit 731 member spreads truth as his apology

=> http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=226219

It's a pity that JT relies so much on Kyodo News.

[Jent]

That's kinda like people are going to court in America and demanding compernsation for their ancestors being slaves. I really don't see how it's fair to charge someone else for something that they didn't do.

[bossel]

That's kinda like people are going to court in America and demanding compernsation for their ancestors being slaves. I really don't see how it's fair to charge someone else for something that they didn't do.
You missed the point that some of the comfort women are still alive. Anyway, even if the actual victim already died, if you as a direct descendent can prove that as a result of their suffering you also suffered, you might qualify for compensation as well.

[Jent]

You missed the point that some of the comfort women are still alive. Anyway, even if the actual victim already died, if you as a direct descendent can prove that as a result of their suffering you also suffered, you might qualify for compensation as well.


Which makes very little sense to me.

But from what I hear the Japanese yakuza still are selling woman through sex trade. Latina women, if I remember correctly.

[sabro]

American History books don't try to hide slavery. Although no compensation was ever paid for slavery, Japanese Americans who survived internment camps in the US recieved official appologies and reparations for that action. You did have to be alive to get the cash, though.

[sennen]

Back to the topic: while the German army committed the most horrible (war) crimes in WWII there was no institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army. It is sad to see that no post-war administration in Japan took over the slightest bit of responsibilty and agreed to compensate former "comfort women". Just read the verdicts quoted below...

Do you have information on any persuasive evidence of institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army?

Almost all armies are accompanied by comfort women. Of course, in vietnam war, too. Propably, also in Iraq, I presume.

Even today, there are many coutries in which prostitution is legal. (see http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/whatcountrieslegal.html, which says that Prostitution is LEGAL (with some restrictions that aren't that bad) in Canada, most all of Europe including England, France, Wales, Denmark, etc., most of South America including most of Mexico (often in special zones), Israel (Tel Aviv known as the brothel capital of the world), Australia, and many other countries).

Further, comfort women accomapnying the Imerial Japanese Army were no sex slaves. They are paid a lot of money. They were not hunted or forced to sell sex by the Imperial Army. In war, comfort women are necessary evil. As to connection to the the Imperial Army, they cooperated with the police and only gave instructions to citizen prostitute empolyers to stop recruiting prostitutes in an almost kidnap-like or hunting like manner.

This prolem of comfort women was started based on a trumped-up book published in 1983. The book was cooked up by Seiji Yoshida, who was found to be a professional liar. The Asahi Shimbun, most influential (left-biased) paper in Japan, started campaign based on the book in 1991. In this book, he wrote that he had hunted comfort women in Korea. But later, he admited that he invetned stories to sell the book. See http://www1.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~asakyu/no5.html (in Japanese).

[sennen]

...They are paid a lot of money.
...
As to connection to the the Imperial Army, they cooperated with the police and only gave instructions to citizen prostitute empolyers to stop recruiting prostitutes in an almost kidnap-like or hunting like manner.


Corrections:

...They were paid a lot of money.
...
As to connection to the the Imperial Army, the Imperial Army cooperated with the police and only gave instructions to citizen prostitute empolyers to stop recruiting prostitutes in an almost kidnap-like or hunting like manner.

[bossel]

Oh nice, another revisionist. Not that I think it's any use to argue with you, but here we go...

Do you have information on any persuasive evidence of institutionalized prostitution as introduced by the Imperial Japanese Army?
Evidence is obviously persuasive enough for the Coomaraswamy report to the UN (http://www.comfort-women.org/coomaras.htm) & an international commission of jurists (http://www.comfort-women.org/Unfinished.htm).

Almost all armies are accompanied by comfort women. Of course, in vietnam war, too. Propably, also in Iraq, I presume.
I smell another smoke screen.
Not "almost all armies" have such an elaborate system of sex slavery, though.

Even today, there are many coutries in which prostitution is legal.
More smoke.
Illegal prostitution is a completely different issue.

For the rest of your revisionist crap, I refer you to this thread (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73) in which we dealt with the issue quite extensively (thanks to your buddy Urecco).

[Shibuyaexpat]

"It's deja vu all over again" - Yogi Berra. :p

[Kionon]

I've stated this before. I simply do not feel that "Japan" has anything to answer for. Japan is a group of islands. Land. With artificially created borders by the people living there.

To insist that the Prime Minister, or the Government, or Katzuhito (spelling)? Or anyone else need apologize for actions they did not commit is utterly ridiculous. Blame them for what they did, if you can prove it. It is the same, as was previously mentioned, as someone blaming me for slavery because I am a White American and asking me to pay reperations, via my taxes, because of it. Well, I'm a second generation Irish American, my family wasn't even here, let alone owning slaves. That concept, too, is clearly ridiculous.

No, what should happen is that we need to find the perps. If these women were forced into sex, then they were raped. Rapists should be punished for their crimes. Find the rapists, or those that authorized the rapes, put them on trial in criminal court, and then put them in civil court. To say that the PM or any of the current Japanese elite are responsible just because they represent the government is stupid.

The mistake here was that the US or the Japanese did not put those rapists on trial to begin with. If that can be proven, then THAT is what needs to be argued, and then the government is at fault. The women should not be claiming the government caused them to be raped, rather they should be claiming that there was a miscarriage of justice when the government failed to file charges against those that did. And if you can argue that, then the US is also to blame, because we had the power and chose not to use it.

Yeah, and I'd like to see you get President Bush to apologize because the US didn't use that power. Not going to happen, even if it should.

[sennen]

Evidence is obviously persuasive enough for the Coomaraswamy report to the UN (http://www.comfort-women.org/coomaras.htm) & an international commission of jurists (http://www.comfort-women.org/Unfinished.htm).).

The report recites the book cooked up by Yoshida Seiji, the professionla liar who brought about this problem, at paragraphs 29 and 40, contents of which were admitted by the liar to be false. Can such a roughly-made prejudiced report be reliable?


I smell another smoke screen.
Not "almost all armies" have such an elaborate system of sex slavery, though.


I smell another fire on purose.
No such slavery. Due to poverty, in those days, some poverty-stricken parents sold their daughters to recruiters, because money paid as an advance was so much (reportedly amounting to e.g.a yearly salary of a major general of the army). Sad stories. But, only in this sense, they were forced to sell sex against their will. Further, they were paid much money so that they could complete the payment of their debt in half a year or so. Reportedly, the confort women during the war had a saving of one or twofold of the advance on average.

[lexico]

Sennen-san, don't fight it. It's a lost cause for you.
The more you fight it, the greater the harm.
There's brimstone added on top of your head with your every attempt at falsification. The sin of dishonesty will follow you to your grave. :(

[lexico]

I've stated this before. I simply do not feel that "Japan" has anything to answer for. Japan is a group of islands. Land. With artificially created borders by the people living there.

To insist that the Prime Minister, or the Government, or Katzuhito (spelling)? Or anyone else need apologize for actions they did not commit is utterly ridiculous. Blame them for what they did, if you can prove it.I don't see what you are trying to say. Are you protesting the modern definition of Japanese territory with unresolved problems such as the Meiji Annexation of Ainu Moshiri aka Hokkaido of 1869 or the Meiji Annexation of the Kingdom of Ryukyu in 1879 ? The rest is being handled by historians so there's no need for you to worry. In legal terms an individual cannot be charged for crimes committed by one's ancestors, but a nation by definition is the continuation of it's previous governments. In conclusion as long as the national identity is preserved there is no limit to liability. By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D. It is the same, as was previously mentioned, as someone blaming me for slavery because I am a White American and asking me to pay reperations, via my taxes, because of it. Well, I'm a second generation Irish American, my family wasn't even here, let alone owning slaves. That concept, too, is clearly ridiculous.False analogy. This is defined as 'comparing two things with only some similarities but also with significant differences that are ignored for the sake of this particular argument.' Just for an example, most Japanese did not come from Ireland one generation back, or did they ? :DNo, what should happen is that we need to find the perps. If these women were forced into sex, then they were raped. Rapists should be punished for their crimes. Find the rapists, or those that authorized the rapes, put them on trial in criminal court, and then put them in civil court. To say that the PM or any of the current Japanese elite are responsible just because they represent the government is stupid.Where were you in 1945 ? Those perps are mostly dead by now, so sadly your idea of justice has little hope to be realized. What can be done is honest, unconditional, full acceptance of the war crimes and other damages afflicted upon victims of Imprerial Japan. Nonacceptance is clearly the wide path to forceful justice in the future.The mistake here was that the US or the Japanese did not put those rapists on trial to begin with. If that can be proven, then THAT is what needs to be argued, and then the government is at fault. The women should not be claiming the government caused them to be raped, rather they should be claiming that there was a miscarriage of justice when the government failed to file charges against those that did. And if you can argue that, then the US is also to blame, because we had the power and chose not to use it.Again too late for that. Japan cannot expect a nudge from the US to help it realize. It should fairly and squarely face the consequences of its past actions willingly while it still has a chance.

[sennen]

Sennen-san, don't fight it. It's a lost cause for you.
The more you fight it, the greater the harm.
There's brimstone added on top of your head with your every attempt at falsification. The sin of dishonesty will follow you to your grave. :(
How about your sin of prejudice? Your sin of insolence calling the other party in debate dishonest without indicating any ground or evidence?. Do you support the professional liar only because he is Japanese?

I am sorry for you that you live in a country protected from books against your government's policy. Have you read the book I recommended you in a thread other than this? The book "Excuse for Pro-Japanese" by Kim Wansop seems to be banned in Korea. I wish you could gain access to books which enable you to grasp the history of your country more objectively.

_______________________________________
Chuku-chuku-chins: writers who are not allowed to read books that are against their government policy.

[sabro]

Interesting- The accounts of thousands of "comfort women" of their ordeal goes way beyond rape and forced prostitution. It was kidnapping followed by dozens of rapes per day, along with beatings, starvation, and drug addiction. It lasted for years. For many it ended in death due to disease, malnutrition, untreated injury, botched abortion, or abandonment when the Army left the area. The documentary evidence is solid, as are the accounts of thousands of these women and thousands of former soldiers. Because it was part of an organized government plan, the Japanese government should answer for it. It is an unprecedented and unparalleled war crime simply based on its scale if not its inhumanity. The scant recognition and shallow appologies offered by the government so far have encouraged the revisionist drivel like we have been subjected to on this forum. Japan created a nightmarish hell for tens of thousands of women and girls, and now some are attempting to minimize it, make light of it, or erase it all together. It makes me very sad.

[pipokun]

To Lexico
It is, indeed, nice to see you not like a NAVER kid. This isn't my sarcasm at all. Dialogues should be the only way to know each others.

In legal terms an individual cannot be charged for crimes committed by one's ancestors, but a nation by definition is the continuation of it's previous governments. In conclusion as long as the national identity is preserved there is no limit to liability. By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Quod Eram Demonstrandum.

You mean Korean people are still eligible to file a lawsuit against J govenment?
If so, I am happy if you would share your opinion. And if possible, could you tell me your first-hand updates upon the secret diplomatic documents of the normalization talks in your country.

[sennen]

Interesting- The accounts of thousands of "comfort women" of their ordeal goes way beyond rape and forced prostitution. ....
The documentary evidence is solid, as are the accounts of thousands of these women and thousands of former soldiers.


Even the report adopted by United Nations is based on the book published by the professional liar, Seiji Yoshida. My position is based reports on first-hand research carried out in Korea, particularly on attestants. What matters is the truth or fact on which the thousand books are based. Please mention the title of the book which you think most trustworthy and contains references to first-hand evidence or reliable resources of information, preferably one in Japanese which I can read through in a short time. Then, I might be informed otherwise.

[Kionon]

I don't see what you are trying to say. Are you protesting the modern definition of Japanese territory with unresolved problems such as the Meiji Annexation of Ainu Moshiri aka Hokkaido of 1869 or the Meiji Annexation of the Kingdom of Ryukyu in 1879 ? The rest is being handled by historians so there's no need for you to worry. In legal terms an individual cannot be charged for crimes committed by one's ancestors, but a nation by definition is the continuation of it's previous governments. In conclusion as long as the national identity is preserved there is no limit to liability. By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Quod Eram Demonstrandum.

I'm not arguing anyting about turn of the century Japan. That has nothing to do with my argument.

And I simply disagree with you that modern day Japan is the same nation as Imperial Japan. That simply isn't so. There was a reason for the war and for the occupation by the allies. We destroyed Imperial Japan and in its place set up a constitutional monarcy with an active parliament and a distinct lack of strong military leaders. You and I will not agree that the current government of Japan is responsible for unpaid dues by Imperial Japan, because I will never agree that one descended from the other. At least not peacably and in the way we we normally recognize transfers of power in most nations.

False analogy. This is defined as 'comparing two things with only some similarities but also with significant differences that are ignored for the sake of this particular argument.' Just for an example, most Japanese did not come from Ireland one generation back, or did they ? :D

No, it isn't. You calling it a false analogy fits your definition, since you ingnored my main point to look at one small part. Let me clear it up. Most of the individuals in Japan are not responsible for the actions of those that came before. Many (and I'll get to this with you next question) weren't even born. My point is that, at least in America, it is wrong to criminalize someone for the actions of their relatives. Did I have slave owning relatives? Maybe, hard to know. Probably distantly. Certainly not my immediate family. And even if so, can you prove I, not my relatives, but I personally profited from it? I doubt it. Stop treating the Japanese as "The Japanese" start treating them like individuals.

Where were you in 1945 ? Those perps are mostly dead by now, so sadly your idea of justice has little hope to be realized. What can be done is honest, unconditional, full acceptance of the war crimes and other damages afflicted upon victims of Imprerial Japan. Nonacceptance is clearly the wide path to forceful justice in the future.Again too late for that. Japan cannot expect a nudge from the US to help it realize. It should fairly and squarely face the consequences of its past actions willingly while it still has a chance.

I wasn't born, just like most of the Japanese population. I'm sure the perps are dead by now, and realize that bringing them to justice has little possibility to succeed. That doesn't change the fact that a properly worded suit could prove that the NEW Japanese government (the only one I recognize) has something to answer for when it failed to try the perps before they died. I support that attempt, just as I would support it in the states. If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.

[kirei_na_me]

I wasn't born, just like most of the Japanese population. I'm sure the perps are dead by now, and realize that bringing them to justice has little possibility to succeed. That doesn't change the fact that a properly worded suit could prove that the NEW Japanese government (the only one I recognize) has something to answer for when it failed to try the perps before they died. I support that attempt, just as I would support it in the states. If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.

Exactly...I mean exactly what I wanted to say.

[dreamer]

If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.

Well...it's difficult to forget what has been done :/
My mother always tell me about how a part of my family has been slaughtered by japanese during the 2nd world war, and each time there's an article in the newspaper where "a chinese girl has been murdered in Japan" or something like that she brings back the topic...

What I mean is that if for me who was born in another country, I hear this thing so often from my family, then there's no wonder why hatred is so persistent...
Personnaly I agree with the fact that you're not guilty for what your ancestors have done, but as long as the victims continue to bear a grudge like that, and even if the japanese government is trying to make up for Japan's past mistakes, it's not gonna work...

[bossel]

The report recites the book cooked up by Yoshida Seiji, the professionla liar who brought about this problem, at paragraphs 29 and 40, contents of which were admitted by the liar to be false. Can such a roughly-made prejudiced report be reliable?
A professional liar? Wow!
But even if your allegations were true this is only a minor part of the whole report. As usual revisionists take minor details which are not quite as consistent as they think is necessary to discredit the whole.

Reportedly, the confort women during the war had a saving of one or twofold of the advance on average.
Which reports?

Even the report adopted by United Nations is based on the book published by the professional liar, Seiji Yoshida.
Have you actually read the report? There is much more in it than Yoshida's memoirs.

[lexico]

Foreword: Please comment on what I said only. I defined the continuation of governmental responsibilty but here you shift my reference to Japanese governments to Japanese individuals. Would you call that rational ?

I'm not arguing anyting about turn of the century Japan. That has nothing to do with my argument.

And I simply disagree with you that modern day Japan is the same nation as Imperial Japan. That simply isn't so. There was a reason for the war and for the occupation by the allies. We destroyed Imperial Japan and in its place set up a constitutional monarcy with an active parliament and a distinct lack of strong military leaders. You and I will not agree that the current government of Japan is responsible for unpaid dues by Imperial Japan, because I will never agree that one descended from the other. At least not peacably and in the way we we normally recognize transfers of power in most nations.You are saying that the national identify first forged during the Meji years has been discontinued in 1945 ? Then why did Germany go to pains to acknowledge, educate, apologize, and to make reparations ? For nothing ? Where do you get this wild idea ? You seem to be in denial; love for Japanese studies does not require defending modern Japan's interests.No, it isn't. You calling it a false analogy fits your definition, since you ingnored my main point to look at one small part. Let me clear it up. Most of the individuals in Japan are not responsible for the actions of those that came before. Many (and I'll get to this with you next question) weren't even born. My point is that, at least in America, it is wrong to criminalize someone for the actions of their relatives. Did I have slave owning relatives? Maybe, hard to know. Probably distantly. Certainly not my immediate family. And even if so, can you prove I, not my relatives, but I personally profited from it? I doubt it. Stop treating the Japanese as "The Japanese" start treating them like individuals.Please read first paragraph. You're forced logic might have worked if Japan renounced it Japanese identity which never happened AFAIK. Not so, as you know. Please don't beg for repetition by reading my first paragraph closely and literally.I wasn't born, just like most of the Japanese population. I'm sure the perps are dead by now, and realize that bringing them to justice has little possibility to succeed. That doesn't change the fact that a properly worded suit could prove that the NEW Japanese government (the only one I recognize) has something to answer for when it failed to try the perps before they died. I support that attempt, just as I would support it in the states. If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.So repeating your statement "It's just wrong" makes it so ? Forced logic again. Denial has become an international epidemic. The current gov. is guilty of denial of Imperial Japan's action. Please read closely what people write !

[Kionon]

Foreword: Please comment on what I said only. I defined the continuation of governmental responsibilty but here you shift my reference to Japanese governments to Japanese individuals. Would you call that rational?

I did only comment on what you said. I also clearly stated we would not agree because I do not believe in the continuation of governmental responsibility because current Japan is NOT Imperial Japan. If you do not agree with me there, then there is no point in continuing discussion, but I had issues with other things you stated, and so I countered your arguments. As for Japanese individuals, they would be the ones made to pay if reperations were paid out. A government is supported by taxes. You were the one to bring up Meiji era stuff, which I still don't get what that has to do with anything.

You are saying that the national identify first forged during the Meji years has been discontinued in 1945 ? Then why did Germany go to pains to acknowledge, educate, apologize, and to make reparations ? For nothing ? Where do you get this wild idea ? You seem to be in denial; love for Japanese studies does not require defending modern Japan's interests.

Imperial Japan was discontinued in 1945. That government fell and was replaced by force. It does not continue into the present. You can argue sociological ramifications of imperialist thought all you want, that it is not my argument. My argument is that Imperial Japan no longer exists, and it certainly isn't the current Japanese Government reconstituted.

What Germany did was up to Germany. It chose its actions as a free government. It did not have to. It was not Nazi Germany. Actually, in some sense I think Germany has gone too far in banning certain types of speech action, etc, but that is another story. And that is not to say I believe Germany was wrong to acknowledge or apologize. Making reperations was also probably dependent on a feeling of the entire post-war culture. I'd need to check my facts, but I believe a good majority of German people probably chose such an action.

Germany and Japan are not the same. And I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of Japan's apologies. I know that Prime Minister Koizumi has apologized just this month, but I still do not think he has to do so.

As to your last couple of sentences about me being in denial or in protecting Japanese interests, I won't even dignify it with a defense. Those are personally insulting allegations you have no proof of. I'd prefer you keep your arguments from becoming personal.

Please read first paragraph. You're forced logic might have worked if Japan renounced it Japanese identity which never happened AFAIK. Not so, as you know. Please don't beg for repetition by reading my first paragraph closely and literally.

Now you're just ignoring me. Current Japan is not Imperial Japan. I do not feel the identity is the same. How could it be? And it seems you claim that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. I find that false. Too much has happened in the world for that to be true. How many times must I make that point?

So repeating your statement "It's just wrong" makes it so ? Forced logic again. Denial has become an international epidemic. The current gov. is guilty of denial of Imperial Japan's action. Please read closely what people write !

No, it's an affirmation of my opinion, that I have argued logically and rationally. And others have agreed with to boot. I am not denying Imperial Japan's atrocities. Quite the opposite. I am denying that the current government is some kind of reincarnation of Imperial Japan and that they must atone for the actions of a government that was not under their control. Honestly, Imperial Japan DID atone- by beaing dfeated in battle by the United States and her allies. We crushed them to the point of dropping two atomic bombs and killing millions, including women and children, yet we have not been asked to apologize.

I'll say it as clear as I possibly can: Current Japan must atone for not doing enough to redress what they had the power to redress during the transitional period in the middle of the 20th century, if that can be proven in a court of law. Current Japan is NOT responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. Imperial Japan does not exist.

[sabro]

Senen- we've done this before. I gave sources, did some research- it was quite an education, but suffice it to say that the sources were numerous, substantial and quite verifiable. You'll have to look backwards on the thread though, because I am too tired tonight to repeat them.

[lexico]

Why the Meiji question ? It was introduced because you made a cryptic statement abaout Japan being nothing more than the artificially delineated islands and land. I raised a legitimate question regarding your statement, remember ? "Are you protesting Japanese expansionism that started in the Meiji era ? Hokkaido annexed 1869, Okianawa/Ryukyu annexed 1879."
current Japan is NOT Imperial Japan. If you do not agree with me there, then there is no point in continuing discussion, but I had issues with other things you stated, and so I countered your arguments. I do agree. The two governments in question are not identical, but for the latter to be regocnized as a legitimate Japanese govenernment, it has to accept unpaid dues and responsibilities, if not guilt of sin of perpetrating the crime itself. This fine yet easily confused distinction is eluciadated in Takahashi Tetsuya's 高橋哲哉 Demanding Postwar Responsibility Sengo sekininron 戰後責任論, Kondasha, 1999.
As for Japanese individuals, they would be the ones made to pay if reperations were paid out. A government is supported by taxes. So it's about tax money. I feel rather offended by your comparison with US slavery and your unwillingness to any reparation because you had nothing to do with US slavery. Becaue the analogy is so far fetched I find it hard to accept your argumnent as valid in our discussion.

You were the one to bring up Meiji era stuff, which I still don't get what that has to do with anything.That's when it all got started, the distortion of history as an ideological tool of expansion which continues today in like format and spirit. If you do not see the ghosts of the Meji era working thru the years of 'turmoil,' resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, resulting in the vanishing of races, racial identities, or both, under the guidance of western powers such as the US and Russia, you do not understand what you are talking about. The very land disputes Japan HAS been creating since 1952 are exactly the ones Japan started by forceful taking in the eraly Meiji years.Imperial Japan was discontinued in 1945. That government fell and was replaced by force. It does not continue into the present. You can argue sociological ramifications of imperialist thought all you want, that it is not my argument. My argument is that Imperial Japan no longer exists, and it certainly isn't the current Japanese Government reconstituted.You don't see my point. War crimes are the very ramifications you are making slight of. They just started earlier the way I see it.What Germany did was up to Germany. It chose its actions as a free government. It did not have to. It was not Nazi Germany. Actually, in some sense I think Germany has gone too far in banning certain types of speech action, etc, but that is another story. And that is not to say I believe Germany was wrong to acknowledge or apologize. Making reperations was also probably dependent on a feeling of the entire post-war culture. I'd need to check my facts, but I believe a good majority of German people probably chose such an action.

Germany and Japan are not the same. And I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of Japan's apologies. I know that Prime Minister Koizumi has apologized just this month, but I still do not think he has to do so.

As to your last couple of sentences about me being in denial or in protecting Japanese interests, I won't even dignify it with a defense. Those are personally insulting allegations you have no proof of. I'd prefer you keep your arguments from becoming personal. Well you are entitled to your views; just out of curiosity does yor view reflect the view of the US navy or is it personal ? Might I add that there are more ways to look at the problem of sengo sekininron than thru the sole view of US interest ?
Now you're just ignoring me. Current Japan is not Imperial Japan. I do not feel the identity is the same. How could it be? And it seems you claim that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. I find that false. Too much has happened in the world for that to be true. How many times must I make that point?I feel I'm being ignored, Kionon. :D
True, current Japan is not Imperial Japan. And again true that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. If you fail to see the inner workings of expansionism which continues today, then I understand why you are making such statements.No, it's an affirmation of my opinion, that I have argued logically and rationally. And others have agreed with to boot. I am not denying Imperial Japan's atrocities. Quite the opposite. I am denying that the current government is some kind of reincarnation of Imperial Japan and that they must atone for the actions of a government that was not under their control. Honestly, Imperial Japan DID atone - by beaing dfeated in battle by the United States and her allies. We crushed them to the point of dropping two atomic bombs and killing millions, including women and children, yet we have not been asked to apologize.Losing a war hardly, hardly atones for anything. You seem to attach to much value on military prowess aka victory/defeat. That was only the beginning, a chance to make up with the past, which regrettably was overlooked for the conveniences and national interests pursued in the name of cold war.I'll say it as clear as I possibly can: Current Japan must atone for not doing enough to redress what they had the power to redress during the transitional period in the middle of the 20th century, if that can be proven in a court of law.Yes, that's one way of dealing with the problem methodically. Current Japan is NOT responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. Imperial Japan does not exist.Yes it is, and no it doesn't.
It might help to look into the philosophical implications of Japan's acceptance explored by Takahashi Tetsuya 高橋哲哉, 1999. 1. responsiblity 2. crime 3. guilt; these three do not necessarily conicide nor should they.

[Kionon]

I do agree. Two governments in question are not identical, but for the latter to be regocnized as a legitimate Japanese govenernment, it has to accept unpaid dues and responsibilities, if not guilt of sin of perpetrating the crime itself. This fine yest easily confused distinction is illuciadated in Tetsuya Takahashi's Demanding Postwar Responsibility 戰後責任論, Kondasha, 1999.

Let us agree to disagree. I simply cannot agree that Current Japan is responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. You will never convince me otherwise. Japan's government is legitimate based on its creation after the war was concluded. It is not a continuation of the previous government. This is a fundamental difference of definition, and one I do not feel we can reconcile.

So it's about tax money. I feel rather offended by your comparison with US slavery and your unwillingness to any reparation because you had nothing to do with US slavery. Becaue the analogy is so far fetched I find it hard to accept your argumnent as valid in our discussion.

You'll have to clarify. Are you offended because you feel the analogy doesn't pan out, or are you offended because I'd refuse to pay reparations to descendents of slaves? My refusal to pay for crimes I did not commit does not mean I dismiss the atrocities as if I they did not happen.

That's when it all got started, the distortion of history as an ideological tool of expansion,which continues today in like format and spirit. If you do not see the ghosts of the Meji era working thru the years of 'turmoil,' resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, resulting in the vanishing of races, racial identities, or both, under the guidance of western powers such as the US and Russia, you do not understand what you are talking about. The very land disputes Japan HAS been creating since 1952 are exactly the one Japan started taking by force in the eraly Meiji years.

No, I do not see the ghosts of the Meiji era. You can say whatever you want about my qualifications to argue with you, but I simply do not agree that Imperial Japan is somehow working from the grave like a zombie government controling the current Japanese political elite.

You don't see my point. War crimes are the very ramifications you are making slight of.

You're telling me war crimes were committed after the new government was installed? You'd better be able to prove that. I refered the sociological ramifications of imperialist thought in post-war Japan.

And I am NOT making slight of war crimes. The Imperial Japanese military committed wanton mass murder, rape, destruction, and in some cases carried out and planned to continue to carry out genocide. You cannot say that my defense of the current Japanese government is making slight of the atrocities that were committed. That's unfair.

Well you are entitled to your views; just out of curiosity does yor view reflect the view of the US navy or is it personal ?

Let me make one thing very, VERY clear, as it disturbs me you would even ask:

A single midshipman cannot speak for the entire US Navy. That's ludicrous. Every view I express on an internet forum is my own personal viewpoint. Sometimes I may speak in reference to my military experience, but even then, I am still offering a personal viewpoint. Perhaps if I was CNO or SecNav or a high ranking Admiral that could be different, but I'm so junior as to be completely insignificant. In fact, if I was accused of speaking in an official capacity I could be kicked out of the Navy. Please take care when asking such questions. I realize you may not have known that, or known how junior I am, but I am telling you now. It is very important that you realize I speak only for myself and never for the United States Navy.

True, current Japan is not Imperial Japan. And again true that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. If you fail to see the inner workings of expansionism which continues today, then I understand why you are making such statements.

Another fundamental difference. You can believe what you will about Meiji ghosts. I've never been a paranormal person. The Meiji era is dead and gone, and there's little that can convince me otherwise. If this is enough to make you feel that my opinion is no longer valid, that is up to you.

Losing a war hardly, hardly atones for anything. You seem to attach to much value in military victory/defeat. That was only the beginning, a chance to make up with the past, which regrettably were overlooked for the conveniences and national interests pursued under the name of cold war.

I attach much to military victory/defeat when it involved the deaths of millions and destruction of an entire nation, a large portion of which due to nuclear attack, and which required a massive rebuilding effort. Whatever crimes the Japanese of that time period committed, they were punished for their actions in a horrific action to end the war. Suffering beyond my ability to imagine, and surely beyond yours as well. If that wasn't punishment, than I simply do not know what is.

You may be right that the new Japanese government failed to redress wrongs for whatever reason, which very well could have included cold war strategic and tactical planning. I have said as much, and if that is true, then Japan has something to answer for, and should apologize for the impotence during a critical time of change. But that remains to be proven in a court of law. I am person who believes that justice will eventually win out the end. Justice delayed is not always justice denied, but in this case it may come close. On this we are in agreement.

Yes it is, and no it doesn't.

Sorry, it's not. You will not convince me otherwise unless you can prove McArthur handed the reigns to war criminals, and I want names and crimes committed in order to believe that. Due process is a big deal to us Americans, and I will not give considerable thought to any accusation without evidence being presented.

It might help to look into the philosophical implications of Japan's acceptance explored by Takahashi Tetsuya, 1999. 1. responsiblity 2. crime 3. guilt; these three do not necessarily conicide nor should they.

I'll go ahead and read the book, but I do believe that they coincide. If they do not, then any sense of justice might as well be tossed out the window. A criminal must have committed the crime, been responsible at the time of the crime, and must be guilty of the crime because of the previous two. You can not indict all of Japan for the crimes of a few. The nation is not wholly responsible or wholly guilty.

[pipokun]

By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D.
I understand you try to be as rational as possible, saying the difference of responsibilities in state and the indivisual.
Then always find others saying, "well then who vote and choose the govenment? Japanese, isn't it? So by deductive reasoning the current indivisuals are responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future indivisuals in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D."
If you say like the above, no diplomatic relations would be needed but anachy.

How about demanding more Korea-Japan diplomatic documents to your govenment? Japanese cannot say anything about it, for it is your internal matter in your govenment, isn't it?

Always wonder where are cheerful drunken Koreans like my Korean friends on the Chongno street.

[bossel]

I simply cannot agree that Current Japan is responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. You will never convince me otherwise. Japan's government is legitimate based on its creation after the war was concluded. It is not a continuation of the previous government.
Well, I think, by eg. demanding the return of the Kuriles, the modern Japanese government walks in the footsteps of the Imperial government. But that aside, of course the current government is not responsible for the actions of previous governments. There is legacy, though. I don't think, simply because a government changes (albeit as drastically as after WWII) all the national debt, guilt a.s.o. disappears. The nation of Japan stayed widely intact (except eg. for the Kuriles), hence there is a national continuity. AFAIK the Japanese government even accepts (at least parts of) this continuity, eg. by demanding the Kuriles back.

What's more, there was continuity of national institutions:
- the Tenno was still there (albeit without most of his previous powers)
- the constitution was only amended, not re-drawn, IIRC
- the bureaucracy (the very basics of governmental power) stayed largely intact, see this article (http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19990701fareviewessay996/walter-lafeber/the-unmasterable-past-the-limits-of-japan-s-postwar-transformation.html).

[sabro]

You guys have stumbled on to that "sins of the father" kind of question that has no easy answer. How much responsibility for apology and redress does the current government have for the actions of its predescessor? How responsible are the descendents of war criminals for the crimes? When does justice stop? Certainly Germany answered it one way, and Japan another.

[caster51]

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/editorial/news/20061030ig90.htm

According to a leading article of Yomiuri news



慰安婦狩りをやったと“自白”した日本人も現れたが、 これも作り話だった。政府の調査でも、強制連行を示す 直接の資料はついに見つからなかった。

強制連行は「今に至っても事実を裏付けるものは出てい ない」

[sabro]

What does the article say?

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

The Japanese who said that I abducted Comfort Women appeared,
However, this was a lie talk.
The direct document to show compulsion by investigation of the government was not found after all.

kidnapped "A thing proving a fact at present does not appear."

Is not translation wrong?:relief:

[bexchurnside]

I am glad that at least the English never shot a single Japanese. Thank heavens for this!!

[Goldiegirl]

The English didn't shoot Japanese because they were not attacked by the Japanese. They did shoot Germans. Anyway, I don't think that's the point here. The past is in the past. Repeat the good, and learn from the bad.

[junjunforever]

The English didn't shoot Japanese because they were not attacked by the Japanese. They did shoot Germans. Anyway, I don't think that's the point here. The past is in the past. Repeat the good, and learn from the bad.


very true. but looking over this thread, we have people who dont learn from the past and continuously justify the killing and massacre.

[caster51]

very true. but looking over this thread, we have people who dont learn from the past and continuously justify the killing and massacre.

:blush: :blush:

i think all ppl is regarettable about that.
the problem is what truth is....
It is different to tell the truth from no learning from the past.
And, today's idea is different from an idea at that time.

[KirinMan]

I am glad that at least the English never shot a single Japanese. Thank heavens for this!!

Umm I think you may need to check up on your history a bit here. While the British did not have a large force in the Pacific during WWII there were definitely British Combatants and POW's during the war.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/British_Pacific_Fleet

That is a link to the British Pacific Fleet in WWII and they participated in a number of campaigns and battles as well.

This is a quote from Wikipedia about Britian's active service in the Pacific War.

Major actions in which the fleet was involved included the Jan 1945 carrier airstrikes on Japanese strategic oil targets in Palembang, Sumatra. These highly successful raids reduced oil production for the Japanese Navy. Later, in March 1945 in support of the invasion of Okinawa it had sole responsibility for operations in the Sakishima Islands. Its role was to suppress Japanese air activity, using gunfire and air attack, at potential Kamikaze staging airfields that would otherwise be a threat to U.S. Navy vessels operating at Okinawa. The carriers were subject to heavy and repeated kamikaze attacks, but because of their armoured flight decks, the British aircraft carriers proved highly resistant (unlike their U.S. counterparts), and returned to action relatively quickly. Subsequent studies, however, showed that serious damage had occurred to the ships' structure and modernisation was uneconomic.

In April 1945, the British 4th Submarine Flotilla was transferred to the major Allied submarine base at Fremantle, Western Australia, as part of BPF. Its most notable success in this period was the sinking of the heavy cuiser Ashigara, on June 8, 1945 in Banka Strait, off Sumatra, by HMS Trenchant and HMS Stygian. In July 1945 in the Singapore area, British midget submarine XE3 sank Japanese heavy cruiser Takao which settled to the bottom at it's berth and never went to sea again.

Battleships and aircraft from the fleet also attacked the Japanese home islands. The battleship King George V bombarded factories and other installations in the Tokyo area; meanwhile carrier strikes were carried out against land and harbor targets including, notably, the putting out of action of a Japanese escort carrier by British naval aircraft. The BPF would also have played a major part in a proposed invasion of the Japanese home islands, known as Operation Downfall, which was cancelled after Japan surrendered. The last naval air action in WWII was on VJ-Day when British carrier aircraft shot down Japanese Zero fighters.

Lt Robert Hampton Gray, a Canadian naval airman who piloted a Vought Corsair with No. 1841 Squadron FAA on HMS Formidable, was awarded the Victoria Cross, following his death in an attack on a Japanese destroyer at Onagawa Wan, Japan, on August 9, 1945.

Fighter squadrons from the fleet claimed a total of 112.5 Japanese aircraft shot down. No. 1844 Squadron FAA (flying Hellcats) was the top-scoring squadron, with 28 claims.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pacific_Fleet#Active_service

Also please dont forget the Battle of Singapore early on in the war, the thousands also that died there and the thousands that died as POW's as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/remembrance/veterans/japan_pows.shtml

I am surprised a bit that you and Goldiegirl were unaware of this fact of history. The British suffered in some ways more than other allies in the Pacific purely because of the amount of time many were held in capativity. Many Japanese have made reconcilliation trips to England to express their sorrow over their treatment of the British held in the camps. It was also a very nasty, unthinkable existance that many of the British lived through that were held there.

[Han Chan]

NHK now reports that Aso regrets that US House of Representatives made a draft resolution regarding the "confort women". Instead of apologizing or even ackkowledging the crimes against women during WWII, he cotuter attacks. This arrogant attitute will no doubt be popular among the exterme right in Japan, but at the same time it will delay reconciliation or maybe even lead to further outcry among the victims and neighboring countries. I know that most Japanese are shameful because of the way the militay treated women in occupied areas. However, as long as Aso remains FM the outside world will think that the Japanese do not regret the war crimes committed during WWII.
:(
NHK:
"Aso expresses regret over US comfort women resolution
Foreign Minister Taro Aso has expressed regret over a US House draft resolution calling on the Japanese government to apologize to women who worked at brothels for Japanese soldiers during World War Two.
The House of Representatives held a hearing last Thursday on the draft resolution submitted in January.
It says the Japanese government should "formally acknowledge and apologize in a clear and unequivocal manner" for the former Japanese military forcing young women of Asia and the Pacific islands into prostitution.
On Monday, Japanese Foreign Minister Aso was asked at the Lower House Budget Committee whether the Japanese military actually did what was written in the draft resolution.
Mr Aso responded that he is not in a position to acknowledge the matter. He said the draft resolution is extremely regrettable because it is not based on objective facts. "

[postalguide21]

Ms. Yi yongsu had changed her testimony at some interviews especially,
And she also said that "this was long time ago! i am confused!"
We need only the physical evidence from ex. comfort women and government
of china, korea, taiwan and phillipine. Only testimony of ex.comfort woman
have been too enough for us.

[KirinMan]

How many times does a government need to apologize for it's past wrong doings before people will let a subject die?

In my opinion people are not satisfied with just an apology but want some type of monetary compensation as well.

[Goldiegirl]

Obeika is right I think about the monetary compensation. The same thing is happening in the US with the whole issue of slavery. We can not hold responsible the people today for what happened in the past. I don't think a current government has any need to apologise for something they were not involved in. It really is meaningless, would there be any real sentiment or true feeling of remorse. I for one don't feel personal remorse for past history. I can feel sympathy, anger, but for remorse, no, I wasn't there.

[postalguide21]

Japan has no compensation problem between any country.
<Compensation agreements>
1952: Taiwan, India (disclaimed the compensation)
1952: Cambodia (disclaimed the compensation)
1957: Raos (disclaimed the compensation)
1958: Indonesia
1959: Vietnam(South vietnam)
1962: Thai
1963: Myammer
1965: Korea(include North korea)
1967: Malaysia
1968: Singapore
1969: Micronesia
1977: Mongolia
　　　
Above agreements had been based on SF peace treaty and had signed.
All compensation problems had settled. Any claim for past have to be
asked own govenment.
Anyway, I want to say ex.comfort womem, china, korea, taiwan and
phillipine, SHOW THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. ONLY TESTIMONIES ARE TOO ENOUGH.

For your information, Korean government had not disclosed contents of
the Agreement between japan to the public untill 2005.

[KirinMan]

Obeika is right I think about the monetary compensation. The same thing is happening in the US with the whole issue of slavery. We can not hold responsible the people today for what happened in the past. I don't think a current government has any need to apologise for something they were not involved in. It really is meaningless, would there be any real sentiment or true feeling of remorse. I for one don't feel personal remorse for past history. I can feel sympathy, anger, but for remorse, no, I wasn't there.

I have no facts to base this opinion and want to clarify right off the top that this is purely conjecture on my part in this response.

In my opinion one of the biggest reasons this issue has resurfaced now is directly linked to Japan's economic status in the world as well. People think that now because Japan has the money and economic clout it can also afford to pay compensation to individual's for crimes committed during WWII.

If the Japanese economy was on par with a country like the Phillipine's or Viet Nam noone would be trying to make claims against it. Also I feel that in requesting another apology for crimes committed by it's predecessors the countries and individual's making these claims feel that they are strengthening their case in getting monetary compensation.

If the government chooses to apologize again, so be it, that is a decision the government needs to make. I don't think that it is within the rights of the US House of Representatives to be making a request like this, or even for that matter to bring it up in official discussions within the government.

To the House of Representatives in the US all I want to say to them is Pot-Kettle-Black, for all the crimes that the US is guilty of throughout it's own history and for pointing fingers at Japan

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I know one of the poor ladies who was taken out of the camp where she was "living" with her mother in Central Java, during the Japanese occupation.
Most of these camps where we all had to stay during WWII because we are Dutch, were bad enough. But this poor lady, Ellen v.d.Ploeg, was taken away when she was a very young woman of 22 years old, to a special Home with several other Dutch women and girls, she was used day and night by many Japanese military. This happened in Semarang in Central Java, Indonesia.

Far more important than all the compensations in the world is the refusal of the acknowledgement of this crime by the PM from Japan, Shinzo Abe.

I am really sorry, I expected real diplomacy from him about WWII in the Far East. I am so disappointed.

[KirinMan]

I know one of the poor ladies who was taken out of the camp where she was "living" with her mother in Central Java, during the Japanese occupation.
Most of these camps where we all had to stay during WWII because we are Dutch, were bad enough. But this poor lady, Ellen v.d.Ploeg, was taken away when she was a very young woman of 22 years old, to a special Home with several other Dutch women and girls, she was used day and night by many Japanese military. This happened in Semarang in Central Java, Indonesia.
Far more important than all the compensations in the world is the refusal of the acknowledgement of this crime by the PM from Japan, Shinzo Abe.
I am really sorry, I expected real diplomacy from him about WWII in the Far East. I am so disappointed.

Elizabeth not wanting to sound arrogant or condescending here but I really would like to ask you how many PM's here in Japan have to "officially" apologize before the world, or particularly Asia, accepts it?

There is no denying what happened, yet why does the current PM have to apologize again for something that his ancestors did?

Way back in 1992 or 93 then PM Miyazawa, I think it was, issued an official apology to all countries concerned, doesn't that count for something?

How long does it have to go on?

[Han Chan]

Elizabeth not wanting to sound arrogant or condescending here but I really would like to ask you how many PM's here in Japan have to "officially" apologize before the world, or particularly Asia, accepts it?
There is no denying what happened, yet why does the current PM have to apologize again for something that his ancestors did?
Way back in 1992 or 93 then PM Miyazawa, I think it was, issued an official apology to all countries concerned, doesn't that count for something?
How long does it have to go on?

Actually PM Abe and FM Aso are now trying to suggest that the U.S. congressional resolution is not based on "objective facts".
As long at the political leaders in Japan tries to avoid admitting the crimes of the past, the issue will go on and on.
If the japanese leaders had followed the example of the German leaders who repeatedly and sincerely expressed remorse for the crimes committed during WWII, the past would be the past. Only by trying to avoid accepting guilt, the wounds of the past are cept fresh.

"Abe says no apology on comfort women
03/06/2007
THE ASAHI SHIMBUN
Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made clear Monday he will not offer a fresh apology on the wartime "comfort women" issue even if Japan is urged to do so by a U.S. congressional resolution.
"The resolution contains mistakes of fact," Abe told the Upper House Budget Committee when asked about his intentions.
The non-binding resolution calls on Japan to offer a formal apology for the Imperial Japanese Army's role in forcing Korean women and women of other nationalities to provide sex to Japanese soldiers in battlefields leading up and during World War II.
"Even if it is passed, it does not mean we will apologize," Abe said.
He said he basically stands by a 1993 government statement that acknowledged the military's role in forcing the women to work in wartime brothels.
The statement, by then Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono, admitted the women were recruited through "coercion."
The statement offered the government's "sincere apologies and remorse."
Abe on Monday went on to say that "there was no coercion in such ways as military authorities bursting into homes and taking women out" to brothels.
He noted "there were cases in which brokers serving as middlemen in effect coerced them.
"So I think there was coercion in a broad sense."
Abe's remark last week that "there was no evidence" to prove coercion stirred a sharp backlash in South Korea and elsewhere.
The U.S. media widely reported it in connection with the proposed resolution.
Abe said the resolution "is not based on objective facts."
"It does not take into consideration the steps taken by the Japanese government so far, either," Abe said.
He said the government is making efforts to seek understanding of Japan's position "in response to moves by some members of Congress."
The chamber's budget committee started deliberations of the fiscal 2007 budget Monday after the Lower House approved it early Saturday.
"I do not think having a lengthy debate like this in the Diet is productive," Abe said when Toshio Ogawa of the opposition Minshuto (Democratic Party of Japan) raised the question about comfort women.
Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuhisa Shiozaki, meantime, Monday brushed aside concerns that Abe's remark last week indicated his intention to review the 1993 statement.
Some conservative forces are seeking a review.
Shiozaki took issue with those who said Abe's words were not consistent with the Kono statement.
"I think (the criticisms) were not based on appropriate understanding of the prime minister's words," he said.(IHT/Asahi: March 6,2007) "

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Elizabeth not wanting to sound arrogant or condescending here but I really would like to ask you how many PM's here in Japan have to "officially" apologize before the world, or particularly Asia, accepts it?
There is no denying what happened, yet why does the current PM have to apologize again for something that his ancestors did?
Way back in 1992 or 93 then PM Miyazawa, I think it was, issued an official apology to all countries concerned, doesn't that count for something?
How long does it have to go on?

Hi Obeiko,

The trouble is that Mr. Abe said that there was no proof whether these women and girls were forced to have sex or whether they had sex out of free will with the Japanese military overseas.
One cannot apologize for something you are not certain that it happened or didn't really happen.
Mr. Abe has his doubts about the comfortwomen, in his eyes they were willing to comfort the overseas Japanese army.
I say overseas, because I don't think that this sort of behaviour happened in Japan during WWII. People often behave different when they are outside their own country.

How long does it have to go on? This apologizing you mean?
Only the whole Japanese GOVERNMENT must apologize, not one or two or more ministers. Only then Japan will be accepted as a honest country.

I am also still waiting for an acknowledgement from a Dutch government to say that the Dutch government in London (Holland was occupied by Germany) declared war on Japan, 8 December 1941 without thinking about us ( 300 000 Dutch men,women and children) living in Indonesia. We were completely isolated from the rest of the world, everything could and did happen to us. We were left without any form of protection.

Australia had to be protected first, the former Dutch East Indies was not important and those 300 000 Dutch even less so.
Such is life.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I say overseas, because I don't think that this sort of behaviour happened in Japan during WWII. People often behave different when they are outside their own country.
Actually, in all fairness, I'm pretty certain that the Japanese government actually did do the same thing after the war, i.e., round up a bunch of Japanese nationals to "comfort" the American soldiers.

[pipokun]

Actually, in all fairness, I'm pretty certain that the Japanese government actually did do the same thing after the war, i.e., round up a bunch of Japanese nationals to "comfort" the American soldiers.
There were also a sad story, bunch of orphans. Americans were not irresponsible dads, but they also adopted them as well.

Elizabeth van Kampen
Mr. Abe has his doubts about the comfortwomen, in his eyes they were willing to comfort the overseas Japanese army.
No, he does not think so.

[KirinMan]

The trouble is that Mr. Abe said that there was no proof whether these women and girls were forced to have sex or whether they had sex out of free will with the Japanese military overseas.
One cannot apologize for something you are not certain that it happened or didn't really happen.
Mr. Abe has his doubts about the comfortwomen, in his eyes they were willing to comfort the overseas Japanese army.
I say overseas, because I don't think that this sort of behaviour happened in Japan during WWII. People often behave different when they are outside their own country.


You are quite right, he should have kept his mouth shut. I reread the news articles about this most recent gaffe of the current PM and his cabinet.

I also now realize the reason for the timing as well, the private fund that was set up to compensate any women with claims against the Japanese government time limit runs out on March 31st of this year.

How long does it have to go on? This apologizing you mean?
Only the whole Japanese GOVERNMENT must apologize, not one or two or more ministers. Only then Japan will be accepted as a honest country

Sorry maybe I should have written it out fully instead of just writing PM. Then Prime Minister Miyazawa apologized, so as the head of the government he was at the time "the" Japanese government so his apology should have been enough.

Pipokun, please clarify what you mean here, because unless I am mistaken you are saying that American servicemen were not/are not being irresponsible by Fathering children and then leaving them behind as orphans.

I really hope that isn't what you are saying.

There were also a sad story, bunch of orphans. Americans were not irresponsible dads, but they also adopted them as well.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

May I say something personally?

If I had the same bad luck as many of the poor comfortwomen, (I stood in the line in January 1944 in Banyu Biru 10, but thank goodness I had a malaria attack at that same moment) I know that my life would have been completely different today. I would have felt a deep shame, a very deep sadness at the same time. It would have come over me as a knife cutting in my body and soul.

Apologizing, compensation, nothing would have given me my innocence back again, nothing at all.
l

[pipokun]

May I say something personally?
If I had the same bad luck as many of the poor comfortwomen, (I stood in the line in January 1944 in Banyu Biru 10, but thank goodness I had a malaria attack at that same moment) I know that my life would have been completely different today. I would have felt a deep shame, a very deep sadness at the same time. It would have come over me as a knife cutting in my body and soul.
Apologizing, compensation, nothing would have given me my innocence back again, nothing at all.
l
I think it is highly offensive if Japanese would claim "good-old days in Korea & Manchu country".

Obeika
Thanks you for your clarification. That's what I wanted to say, though I know it is irrelevant here.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Thanks you for your clarification. That's what I wanted to say, though I know it is irrelevant here.
Actually, I thought you meant to say that the Americans were not all irresponsible because they would adopt the children that resulted from their "comforting".

[caster51]

there are surely so many comfourt women as a prostitute in business by korean, japanese and local brothel owner.
Jpanese army managed them because of sick.
however, there is no evidence that they were forced.
according to old documment of comfort women, it was prohibited to force them.
女子挺身隊　is not comfort woman at all
korean indicate them comfort woman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKFGY85EvM
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/pmilitary/45000/20070224117228460209404800.jpg

[caster51]

recruiting of comfort woman as a prostitute
baisyunfu(売春婦）chaged ianfu(慰安婦）　because of Kotodama
http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/phistory/72000/20061004115989859702301000.jpg

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Caster51
I looked and listened to the video you have sent but I don't understand Japanese. Sorry! But you have convinced others.

To me there is a difference in falling in love with "the enemy" or being used by the enemy.
Just as some Japanese camp guards in Indonesia were not bad at all, while others were real devils.
Sorry that I can only speak about the situation in Indonesia during WWII, but we were completely isolated from the rest of the world more than 3½ years long.

[Sukotto]

Well the kanji translate to
女子=women
挺身隊=volunteer corps

I cannot understand the spoken Japanese though
or the meaning of the video, so excuse me if I am jumping to conclusions,

Personally I find it kind of hard to believe that women would be jumping to join a corps of volunteers to offer their bodies to be used for sex.
There may be individuals who for their own reasons fall in love with a GI or whatever, but a corp volunteering to offer sex? That is pretty far fetched.

[Sukotto]

Is anybody able to expound on this:
Whereas Japanese public and private officials have recently expressed a desire to dilute or rescind the 1993 statement by Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the `comfort women', which expressed the Government's sincere apologies and remorse for their ordeal;
It seems this was not the PM who made the appology but a secretary,
thus it is not the government as a whole,
also,
is there anybody in the conversation that
reads Japanese newspapers on a regular basis that might have accumulated knowledge on the "public and private officials" who "have recently expressed a desire to dilute or rescind the 1993 statement" ?



In the US, the Clinton administration officially appologized for the overthrow
of the Hawaiian queen, which involved I believe: the US gov't, those that ran plantations, and religious clergy.
http://www.freehawaii.org/bill103.html
Also Ronald Reagan appologized for the sending of US citizens of Japanese descent (and some not) to concentration camps during WW2, and offered up a token compensation.

[KirinMan]

Actually, I thought you meant to say that the Americans were not all irresponsible because they would adopt the children that resulted from their "comforting".
I hope that is what he wanted to say.


It seems this was not the PM who made the appology but a secretary,
thus it is not the government as a whole,
also,


Actually it was the Prime Minister in South Korea in 1993, problem was he only apologized to SK it seems.
third watershed event occurred on January 11, 1992, when the Asahi Shimbun reported that Yoshiaki Yoshimi, a Japanese historian, had discovered several official war documents at the Library of the National Institute for Defense Studies in Tokyo. Contrary to Japan's official position up until then, these documents revealed that the imperial army was involved in both establishing and operating the comfort stations. As a result, the Japanese government could not help but acknowledge its wartime involvement in the comfort women issue; and on January 13, 1992, it issued an apology. Four days later, Prime Minister Miyazawa formally apologized to the Korean people during his visit to Korea. In March 1992, a South Korean non-governmental organization, The Korean Council for the Women Drafted for Military Sexual Slavery by Japan (Han'guk Chongsindaemunje Taech'aek Hyopuihoe, "Korean Council" for short) appealed to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights to investigate the comfort women issue.


Japan's Responsibility Toward Comfort Women Survivors
by C. Sarah Soh (http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp77.html)

[Han Chan]

Is anybody able to expound on this:
It seems this was not the PM who made the appology but a secretary,
thus it is not the government as a whole,...

It seems that the appology in 1993 was only made because a journalist revealed some documents:

"The 1993 apology was not approved by the parliament. It came after a Japanese journalist uncovered official defense documents showing the military had a direct hand in running the brothels -- a role Tokyo until that point had denied."
(AP) March 7, 2007.

[postalguide21]

"Website of Ministry of Gender Equality & Family"
This website has been brought to you by korean government
Comfort Woman advertisement in japanese on October 27 1944
<Content of the advertisement: Right side>
Comfort women wanted.
Requirements for applicants
Age: 17-23
Place: XXXX Brothel
Monthly salary: JPYen300.-min.
(To JPY3,000 advance on salary is available)
Work hours: Negotiable during 8:00AM to 10:00PM
<Content of the advertisement: Left side>
Requirements for applicants
Destination:XXXX brothel
Age: 18-30(Has to be fine health)
Recruit period: Oct. 27th to Nov. 8th
Start date:Around Nov. 11st
Treatment: Negotiable at personal inteview
Numbers: Tens of people
By Comparison,
Beginner's salary of Policeman was JPY45.- per month at the same time.
Korean government and korean ex.comfort women have claimed that japanese army brought in large numbers of women against their will.
If their are true, Why did japanese army need thesek kinds of advertisement?

[caster51]

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/enjoybbs/viewphoto/thistory/1840000/20070319117430460294666400.jpg
1th Septemper 1961 by The Dong-a Ilbo Newspaper
(Translation of title)
"We( seoul city ) accepts registration for post as comfort woman of UN's army from 13th of this month"

In case of Korea, a nation of korea recruited comfort women as a postitute
for UN soldiers

Beginner's salary of Policeman was JPY45.- per month at the same time　7 yen is corect

[caster51]

a Pro. of Seoul unversity said." anti-japan sentiment is pointless....."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K08SmNrW2gY

[gaijinalways]

Caster, you have to understand that not all the women volunteered and/or were honestly recruited for 'comforting' the Japanese soldiers. But don't feel bad Oscar in YD doesn't seem to grasp that point either. Often issues like this are not just black and white, something PM Abe is still grappling with.:okashii:

[ecampbell07]

I'm currently producing a documentary on the comfort women, and I must say, what PM Abe has said is quite enraging. While it is true that some women went willingly into the comfort system, the brutal truth is that the vast majority WERE forced. People need to realize and acknowledge that, instead of trying every way in the world to denounce this issue.

[origami]

gaijinalways, you have to understand all women were prositutes (not slaves) , i.e., part of them had been "sold" by their parents to brokers for the debt (parents had received advance). They were really pitiable in that sense.

For your info, the number of comfort women (=prostitutes) is estimated around 20,000 (NOT 200,000! impossible!), 50% Japanese, 20% Koreans (Japanese citizens at that time), 30% Chinese and others.

Comfort women (prostitutes) were able to quit the job and to be completely free once they had paid off the debt.

You can get an access to the US report on comfort women, searching words "exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA" (adding URLs is not allowed)


Let us make points clear --

1) NO KIDNAPPING , NO SLAVERY caused by Japanese military

2)Prostituion itself was legal in Japan until 1949, was as legal as it is now in some European countries; regulations existed in Japan to protect prostitutes against excessive exploitation

3)Japanese military issued warning against illegal recruitments (mostly in Korean Peninsula where most brokers were Koreans), this means Japanese military did acknowledge the existence of wartime prostitutes, which Japanese government has never denied

4)What Japanese military did were -- warning brokers against illegal or dishonest recruitment, ordering housemasters (employers) to keep his/her house in good sanitary conditions, sending doctors occasionally to houses , taking care of safe transportation of the women. All these were done for the health and safety of soldiers and civilians (prostitutes and housemasters, etc.) outside of Japan. Nothing blamable!

5)GHQ (general headquarters) of US occupation military (1945 - 1952) , shocked at reports of thousands of rapes caused by US soldiers in Japan, also requested Japanese authority to provide them with "amusement house" of prostitutes -- US military had similar facilities in Vietnam -- South Korea government also provided UN military with prostitutes. These facts tell us that militarism needs wartime prostitues, which feminists can argue, if they want to , but this matter should be treated as something general in this whole world.

6)Misery of "sold" women was a tragedy, of course -- however, was nothing rare 50 - 60 years ago. There were many Japanese women, most of whom were daughters of poor farmers in northern area of Japan.

7)There was one case in Idonesia where Japanese soldiers took Dutch women to a comfort house against their will (NOT kidnapped). Two months later, higher rank officers noticed that and punished soldiers immediately, released them, and shut down the house. After WWII, 11 officers (including completely innocent one) were sentenced to DEATH or to 15-20 years in prison. For your info, there were already 2-3 hundreds Dutch prostitutes when Japanese military occupied Indonesia.

8)After WWII Japan accepted the judgement of International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo Military Trial). Series of trials were done without justice nor fairness, nevertheless, Japan accepted the judgement. As written above, Japanese military officers were severely punished.
You can get an access to Wiki page, searching words "International Military Tribunal for the Far East"

9)NO CASE of kidnapping/slavery done by Japanese military was brought to the court of Tokyo Military Trial. No one -- no Korean, no Chinese charged Japan with kidnapping/slavery at the court 60 years ago.

10)In 1965, the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea (South Korea) was signed (which was kept secret in South Korea until 2005.) South Korea agreed to demand no compensations, either at the government or individual level, after receiving money (a huge amount at that time) in grants and soft loans from Japan. South Korean government also claimed that it would handle individual compensation to its citizens who suffered during Japan's colonial rule, while rejecting Japan's proposal to directly compensate individual victim, and receiving the whole amount of grants on the behalf of victims.

11)At this 1965 treaty, kidnapping/slavery was not brought by South Korea, either. Was there any Korean officer who tried to include this matter into agenda? -- No. No one talked about this matter.

12) In 1991, the first Korean "witness" appeared. She said that she could testify "evil conducts" of Japanese military -- but every time she was interviewed, what she claimed was inconsistent with what she told previously. Finally, we learned that she was another case of those pitiable women; she was sold by her father (foster father) to Korean broker.

13)"Comfort women" were renamed to "military comfort women" and to "sex slaves."
What private brokers did 70-60 years ago is now called "kidnapping by Japanese military."
Sounds very strange, doesn't it?

14)"Kidnapping/slavery" is a fiction, a total frame-up. All these comfort women matters, there is surprising background -- it would require much more space (and time and energy) to be told you correctly, so I stop here now.


Comfort women matter was at first (and still is) "bread and butter" of not only Korean but also Japanese left-wing activists. Recently it has become a weapon for China to attack Japan, to destroy US-Japan alliance. China's next weapon would be "Nanking massacre", there was no massacre, it was just one of local battles.


The Japanese accepted the judgement of unfair Tokyo Military Trial and have apologized all the countries involved in WWII many times -- yes, many times! -- and have been trying to contribute to peace of Asia through giving economical/technological/educational support to Asian countries for these 60 years.

While "kidnapping/slavery by Japanese military" being a total frame-up, still, apologies are not enough?

Why do some people require Japanese government of further apologies, instead of blaming North Korea for kidnapping Japanese citizens including a 13-year old girl ?

Why do some people try to reduce Japan into silence while neglecting kidnapped Japanese (and other countries') citizens in North Korea ? They are still captivated in North Korea!!

We, the Japanese will never let our government make any further apologies.
Further apologies would be only harmful to health of mind of Japanese children.We will protect the future of our children.

[KirinMan]

7)There was one case in Idonesia where Japanese soldiers took Dutch women to a comfort house against their will (NOT kidnapped).

How ludicrous can you get, "against their will" ="NOT kidnapped". :mad:

What the hell is your definition of kidnapping? Are you some kind of :dunce:

[origami]

Hi, ecampbell07!

I would recommend you to do thourough investigation about this matter before you produce your documentary, otherwise you would end up being involved in cheep propaganda.

Or are you already involved?

China lobby has approached you?
Representative Mike Honda, D-California, is trying to gain favor with Korean-American voters in his elecion district, but also has received contributions form China lobby. Financally, it is China lobby who support Mike Honda. With this comfort women matter, Mike Honda is manipulated by China lobby. They are preparing for their 2nd stage (Nanking masacre), I bet.

We Japanese believed that US Congress is a place for fruitful discussion -- we believed so, until yesterday. See what they are doing there now. I wonder if tax payers will not get angry to know the truth of Congress. It is a farce. Reps are spending time and money (tax) discussing what Japanese military did 60 years ago, what Turks did to Armenians 100 years ago in order to act for China lobby and French lobby separately.

" the brutal truth is that the vast majority WERE forced. "
Forced by whom?
By Japanese military? -- No jokes, please.
Japanese military might be accused of neglecting the tragedy which was caused by poverty.

Would you Americans willingly make your government apologyze to the Japanese for the brutal truth that GHQ of US military neglected what was happening daily in the first couple of months and let US soldiers rape thousands of Japanese women (housewives, highschoolers, i.e. civilians), and forced some other Japanese women to become prostitutes during 1945 - 1952?

[KirinMan]

People need to realize and acknowledge that, instead of trying every way in the world to denounce this issue.

I have yet to hear anyone other than a few Japanese people make any claims otherwise. I would change this to read;

A few Japanese people need to realize and acknowledge that instead of trying every way in the world to denounce this issue they should accept the fact that this is a sad part of the history of Japan.

I wrote earlier that I was getting a bit tired of hearing people continually say that they are waiting for Japan to "officially" apologize for this issue from WWII. I have to admit that in the case of the comfort women issue Japan meaning the government has been inexcusably slow in responding and acknowledging that this sorry episode from WWII still cause pain and suffering for many throughout many parts of Asia.

I'm currently producing a documentary on the comfort women, and I must say, what PM Abe has said is quite enraging

When you finish it please either put a link here to allow us to watch it or let us know when and where it will be hopefully broadcast. I think it should be educational for all parties involved. I particularly hope that the program if appropriate would be aired here on NHK as well. Good luck in your endeavor.

@origami
Well are you going to "answer" my question to you?

[KirinMan]

Would you Americans willingly make your government apologyze to the Japanese for the brutal truth that GHQ of US military neglected what was happening daily in the first couple of months and let US soldiers rape thousands of Japanese women (housewives, highschoolers, i.e. civilians), and forced some other Japanese women to become prostitutes during 1945 - 1952?

You are confusing the issue, by writing this you are attempting to equal one with the other. They are two separate issues. You are attempting to say that one justifies the other, while neither are justifiable in any sense of the word.

Also there is little evidence and no claims by Japanese women that I know of to support your accusations here.

The evidence is heavily against you on this issue.

[origami]

Obeika, you must note that I wrote "there was one case" -- it means it was an exceptional case, and soldiers were punished immediately, and the house was shut down.

Korean and Dutch witnesses who appreared in Congress the other day, and their supporters -- what they mean by the term "kidnapping" is "snatching a girl away off her parents while they were walking along a country road, or enjoying picnic, etc., and dumping her to the platform of a truck and taking her away together with other girls without telling her parents anything."

Ridiculous. This is exactly what North Korean agents were doing in 1970s - 80s in Japan.

As to the case with a Dutch woman, her father knew where his daughter was; he reported the fact to Japanese military headquarters, and Japanese officers were surprised and shocked and found the dauter and returned her to the father.

As I wrote above, this Dutch case was brought to the court where the Dutch women testified already. 11 Japanese officers were sentensed to many years in prison or death.

Is it fair for anyone to require Japan of second trial/apology after 60 years?
I think it is a total unfairness.

[KirinMan]

Obeika, you must note that I wrote "there was one case" -- it means it was an exceptional case, and soldiers were punished immediately, and the house was shut down.

No I do not "need" to note that at all, you are sidestepping the issue by infering that against someones will does not equal kidnapping, on this you are wrong.

Ridiculous. This is exactly what North Korean agents were doing in 1970s - 80s in Japan.



Once again different issue, you lose your credibility when you cloud the point you were first trying to make by including information that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Again you attempt to justify the actions of the Japanese military. It just doesnt cut it with me.

[origami]

You are confusing the issue, by writing this you are attempting to equal one with the other. They are two separate issues. You are attempting to say that one justifies the other, while neither are justifiable in any sense of the word.
Also there is little evidence and no claims by Japanese women that I know of to support your accusations here.
The evidence is heavily against you on this issue.

Obeika, if you say "neither are justifiable", then ask US government to apologyze to the Japanese at least once.

We have undergone trials and repeated apologies.

We were forced to admit and aplogyzed even for what never occurred in Military Trials after WWII. There was no other choice.

However, that is the last straw to be required further apologies for what Japanese military was not responsible for.

[origami]

PM Abe has never denied the existence of comfort women (prostitutes), he (and his supporters) denies the fiction that Japanese military kidnapped women and forced them to work as slaves.

Since the first Korean "witness" with inconsistent testimony appreared suddenly in 1991, a couple more "witnesses" and their supporters started to crowd in front of Japanese Embassy in Seoul, South Korea weekly.

PM Miyazawa promised President Chon to look into the matter.

And he did.
He ordered Ministry of Foreign Affairs and other departments to do a thorough investigation.

They found nothing.
No hard evidence was there that testifies Japanese military issued an order in writing for recruitment of women.

In the meantime the crowd in front of Japanese Embassy was growing larger and noisier and more hysterical.

In 1993, Chief Cabinet Secretary Kono visited Seoul, South Korea, he was asked to meet some of "witnesses". He agreed, but some memebers of Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs interviewed them in advance.

Kono's team interviewed 16 old women, i.e., they just listened to what old women told. There was no hard evidence in Korea, either.

Then, Kono's counterpart of Korea made a proposition -- if Kono admits that those 16 Korean women were coerced to become comfort women, Korean government will pay compensation money to each individual. Korean officials asked Kono strongly not to injure the pride of old women.

Kono, in expectation that they would stop hysteric demonstration, stretched the meaning of "coercion" to its full extent -- he interpreted "coerction" as "negligence" of illegal recruitment.

Korean officials requested that Kono make sure to include the term "coercion" in his Talk which was to be announced the following day.

In this way Kono's Talk 1993 was announced.

Japanese government also supported the establishment of Foundation for Asian Women.


Then what happened?

Japanese government was betrayed.
Situation stays unchanged.

Korean old women never stop crying hysterically, Korean massmedia never stop generating anti-Japan reports, even Korean President blames Japan loudly, all which are oiling the anti-Japan flames.

Most of the Japanese, including PM Abe, have learned that making obscure compromises is nothing more than harm to the healthy relation between Japan and Korea or any other country.

Kono Talk 1993 has made complicated situation more complicated without imroving Korea-Japan relation -- or more exactly -- it has ruined the relationship.

Now China is putting comfort women matter to wrong use.

This is why most Japanese are waiting for PM Abe to speak up.

[KirinMan]

Obeika, if you say "neither are justifiable", then ask US government to apologyze to the Japanese at least once.


You know by writing what you did right here you are admitting that the Japanese Military was guilty as charged in the comfort women issue.

Everything else you write from this point on is meaningless.

Thank you for admitting that the Japanese Military was guilty of forcing women to work as prostitutes. Now if you can get the government to pay compensation to these unfortunate victims the issue could be closed.

[gaijinalways]

Obieka, Origami adopts the usual Japanese government line, which is to try and weasal out of responsibility on any technicalities that can be posed. This was continued with establishing a non-governmental body to pay compensation to the 'comfort' women.

Origami, you seem to have missed