What is God?

[Ghost]

A topic for those who have no idea whats going on.....or if you want a good read.

Because of the importance of this issue to discussions between atheists and theists, it is critical to have a better understanding of just what it is they are talking about and why. What's the point of debating the possible existence of "God" if no one has tried to come to some sort of agreement as to what they mean by "God"?

Debates and disagreements between atheists and theists tend to center over a single issue: gods, or at least whether or not any gods can or do exist. The is the one thing which differentiates atheists from theists - it isn't necessarily much of an issue, but it can be magnified by a variety of other philosophical, social, and religious matters.

Because of the fundamental importance of this one issue to all general discussions between atheists and theists, it is critical that those who participate in such discussions have a better understanding of just what it is they are talking about and why. After all, what's the point of debating the possible existence of "God" if no one has tried to come to some sort of agreement as to what they mean by "God"?

When a theist claims that a god exists, one of the first questions atheists should ask is "what do you mean by 'god'?" Without understanding what the theist means, the atheist simply cannot evaluate the claim. By the same token, unless the theist is very clear about what he means, he cannot adequately explain and defend his beliefs.

Who Cares? Why Defining God is Important
It might seem to some that discussing the nature, attributes, and character of a supposed god doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless there is some reason to think that this god or even any gods exist in the first place. After all, isn't discussing whether or not a god is omnipotent or omniscient just a waste of time if we have no good reason to suppose it even exists?

God is Perfect & Worthy of Worship
Although there are a number of divine attributes which tend to receive a lot of attention, there is none quite so important for traditional believers as the general principle of absolute perfection and the more narrow implication that, therefore, God is worthy of our worship. These are, in many respects, the very reason why the existence of God is the subject of so much debate - if it weren't for them, there wouldn't be any religions centered around God and perhaps people wouldn't be divided.

God is a Person: Personal Relationships with God
For many people in Western religious traditions, the idea that God is a "person" is a necessary and fundamental part of their beliefs. Indeed, the very idea that God might not be a person is almost inconceivable for that would render them unable to adequately explain their religious history and their own religious experiences.

God & Gender: Is God Really Male?
In many religions throughout history, gods have been portrayed variously as male and female, often embodying important masculine and feminine attributes. The tradition of philosophical theism, however, has had some difficulty with the issue of gender because of the conflicts between religious beliefs and Greek philosophy.

God is Creator & Sustainer of Existence
A very common attribute of gods in religious traditions around the world is that of creation - our universe, our world, and indeed our very selves often owe their existence to creative acts of the gods. In the Western traditions of philosophical theism, the existence of everything is owed to a single creative act by a single perfect God.

God is Omnipotent
What does it mean to be all-powerful? At its most fundamental level, the concept of "omnipotence," also sometimes known as all-powerful, refers to God's ability to do absolutely anything God wants. This characteristic is usually treated as implied from God's characteristic as absolute creator. If God is capable of creating all of existence (whether ex nihilo or ex deo), it is felt that it would be nonsensical to then proceed to assert that there are things beyond God's abilities. Any being capable of creating existence itself must therefore be capable of anything at all - right?

God is Omnibenevolent
What does it mean to be all-loving? The concept of "omnibenevolent" stems from two basic ideas of God: that God is perfect and that God is morally good. Therefore, God must possess perfect goodness. Being perfectly good must entail being good in all ways at all times and towards all other beings. This, then, is what it means for God to be omnibenevolent - but there remain questions. First, what is the content of that goodness and second what is the relationship between that goodness and God?

God is Omniscient
What does it mean to be all-knowing? At its most fundamental level, the concept of "omniscience," also sometimes known as all-knowing, refers to God's ability to know absolutely everything. This characteristic is usually treated as a consequence of one of two ways in which God exists: either because God exists outside of time, or because God exists as part of time.

God is Provident & Sovereign
Although not usually given much attention in most debates, one critical attribute of God for many believers is the idea that God is "provident," which means that God acts in some fashion that requires God to become involved with humanity and causes the course of human history to be aligned with God's ultimate desires and purposes.

God is Free: Constraint vs. Freedom
One attribute which does not receive a lot of individual attention, but which is commonly assumed when discussing other attributes, is the idea that God is absolutely and perfectly free. What this means is that there is a total absence of any constraints or force or limitations on God whenever God acts - for God, freedom is absolute.

God is Immutable: Why can't God change?
Philosophical theism commonly ascribes to God the attribute of "immutable" - the idea that God cannot and does not change. Whatever God is like now is the way that God was for all of the past and the way God will be for all of the future. It doesn't matter what happens anywhere else, God always and inevitably remains the same.

God is Eternal: Timeless vs. Everlasting
God is commonly portrayed as being eternal; however, there is more than one way to understand the concept of "eternal." On the one hand, God may be thought of as "everlasting," which means that God has existed through all of time. On the other hand, God may be thought of as "timeless," which means that God exists outside of time, unconstrained by the process of cause and effect.

God is Transcendent & Immanent
What is God's relationship to Creation? On the face of it, the characteristics of transcendence and immanence appear to be in conflict. A transcendent God is one who is beyond perception, independent of the universe, and wholly "other" when compared to us. An immanent God, however, is one which exists within - within us, within the universe, etc. - and, hence, very much a part of our existence. But how can these qualities exist simultaneously?

God is Incorporeal: Mind without Body?
It is commonly taken for granted that, when talking about God, we are discussing a being who has no body and is not in any way constructed from matter or energy - both of which are features of the "created universe" rather than the "uncreated God." This attribute of incorporeality should not be taken for granted, however, because it has important implications for other divine characteristics.

God Exists: Necessary & Self-Existent
It might seem odd to list "existence" as an attribute of God, but that's not actually the point here. Of course believers think that their god exists - what is at issue is how God exists. According to philosophical theism, God exists in a very special and unique way: God's existence is necessary rather than contingent.

Well thats my report, would love to hear other peoples opinions on this......so post away.

[jeisan]

ghost, next time you wanna post a report, please do it in one long post rather than 17 little ones.
thanks
jeisan

[kamoo]

hi,
hope that my message will find you in a good faith and health.i will appreciate it , if if you send me your e-mail to write to you about God?
could you plz tell me what is your religion.
hoping to hear from you soon.
kamoo

[Winter]

G*d is a figment of Satan's imagination. :D

[Ghost]

eerr....im athiest kamoo, dont believe in god.


good one winter

[Uncle Frank]

His new movie hasn't even been released to the open market and people are going nuts about it. The Pope even stayed awake through it !!
Nice post Ghost or should we change it to THE HOLY GHOST ??

Father - Son - & THG

Frank the Cat

:o

[Winter]

Originally posted by Ghost


good one winter

It really wasnt, but thanks.

Hail Satan! PAN DAEMON AEON


:)

[Ghost]

Hail Satan! PAN DAEMON AEON

what does that mean anyways?

[lexico]

I think that was a word play on Pandemonium, pan (Gk. all) + daemon (Gk. god, goddess) + ium (Latin. place), broken down slightly differently at the end where aeon is a long time, to mean "Long live Satan !" I guess. Since the Greek gods are considered pagan, "god" is translated as "spirits, evil spirits, or demons"; pandemonium is often used to say a hellish place, or where all hell breaks loose. Milton's neologism was meant to refer to the capital city of hell in Paradise Lost.
Wiki on Pandaemonium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemonium)

[Annubis]

I've heard people say that G is an alien. I personally think G is one and all.

[Dutch Baka]

I think god means hope for a lot of people, i believe in god in some way but i do not have a religion.

[Hezam]

God " ALLAH " is not person or human ...he is biggest than you think ...

he is not Jesus ...he is not Muses and he is not Muhammed ...they are all Prophets ..Not Gods ...

and thanks for this thread ....

[Derfel]

Although I like to view God as an elderly wise "seer", its only to suppress my fear of death subconsciously, well probably. As for who He really is? Im quite sure he won't, but inside my heart I always hope the he's the one to purge all the stupid people after their deaths.

[Chi65]

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/
might be best to discuss or read all about this first, if you really wish to know, whats going on in this discussion about god.

As for Allah, there is as much about it there.
(but never forget, the last name is unknown and as present in all religions, if so, I appreciate some fine sufis, esp. those, who now include women. . .)

[Hezam]

In Islam there are more than 100 names of God ...

http://www.islamtoday.com

http://www.55a.net/firas/english

you can find more about that here .....

thanks

[Mycernius]

God " ALLAH " is not person or human ...he is biggest than you think ...
he is not Jesus ...he is not Muses and he is not Muhammed ...they are all Prophets ..Not Gods ...
and thanks for this thread ....
Give me evidence that your God exist and no others do. For all you know the Fling Spaghetti monster is real and Allah is just a figment of human imagination.
BTW the Koran, Bible and such 'Holy' Books are not evidence of gods of any type. A collection of writings from primitive bronze age nomads is not a basis for any type of evidence for the existance of a divine being.
Another question, why is Allah, or Yhwh a he anyway? Could just as well be a she.

God " ALLAH " is not person or human ...he is biggest than you think ...
he is not Jesus ...he is not Muses and he is not Muhammed ...they are all Prophets ..Not Gods ...
and thanks for this thread ....
Give me evidence that your God exist and no others do. For all you know the Fling Spaghetti monster is real and Allah is just a figment of human imagination.
BTW the Koran, Bible and such 'Holy' Books are not evidence of gods of any type. A collection of writings from primitive bronze age nomads is not a basis for any type of evidence for the existance of a divine being.
Another question, why is Allah, or Yhwh a he anyway? Could just as well be a she.


http://www.55a.net/firas/english

you can find more about that here .....

thanks
An apologist site. Great:okashii: I can give a list that are constantly posted on the AN (Atheist Network) forum from christians. Not very convincing evidence, except to the already convinced (AKA The faithful)

[Janny]

God equals hope, as far as I can see. No wonder old people resort to religion; they feel their end is coming and they turn to God in order to be helped and live longer. As if turning good at the end of your life will ever save you from death..

For me, God is some sort of entity that has disappeared/died since humanity is on the verge of self-destruction. Let's face it, no creator would let his work just get destroyed like this. If He is really out there (I'm not even sure it's a "he") then I want a positive, clear sign, the end of wars everywhere or something... We need help but we get none, so until then, my religious side is locked away somewhere gathering dust.

[Chi65]

In Islam there are more than 100 names of God ...
http://www.islamtoday.com
http://www.55a.net/firas/english
you can find more about that here .....
thanks

Very well known, but that also applies to other beliefs.
Sorry, but I come from a comparative corner and know, its not only in Islam.

Every name is just an aspect, but you cannot really "name" the whole, only for yourself, wherever you are...and you have to accept and respect others "languages".
Even many sufis talk about that. You should know your own kind a bit better, maybe. . .

[Sarapva]

I think each religion is "right" about God - there are different names to mean basically the same thing. It doesn't matter what name we use. I think God is an energy that is everywhere all the time and that it's us people who don't always see Him/Her/It. We have free will, which is why we get ourselves into the messes we're in throughout the world. We have to learn how to use our free will wisely, stop trying to have control and to live harmoniously with everyone.

[centrajapan]

. I think God is an energy

I am sorry to just have pasted a small chunk of your very well written post there but I especially agreed with this part of it.

[Derfel]

I am sorry to just have pasted a small chunk of your very well written post there but I especially agreed with this part of it.

In that case we might as well be part of God, as we aren't any different, we're made of "waves" too. Perhaps God is a "wavelength"? A "wavelength" that controls the subconsciousness? I know its only a game, but Xenogears had this "Wave Existence" that stood above God (Deus) who was depicted as the evil physical matter that binds the soul, just like in most dualistic religions.

[Chi65]

We got a relatively new name for something here later:
cultural translater

That, in my opinion is the right step to at least first listen to others and then compair it with own views, not exclude, only, whats too limited.
(Sadly, that also applies to some "fundamental" scientists)

Who were always first in stepping over borders, were artists, by the way.
(we had this not only in terms of those in Berlin, but also in terms of contacts between Koreans and Japanese, or both with China etc., and on my several international symposien, we hardly ever had an issue about beliefs, in contrary.
The "other" view was mostly welcomed as an inspiration to see things from a new angle, not to fight against or degrade it.
What was not welcomed, was drunken fights about the "only one", since there is none.
To me, it is nothing but a big puzzle, that will not fall into place by holding just one flag up.
Imagine a mountain, that you can walk up from different sides, but once you are up, you can see the many paths all around you. And that the top is there for everyone.
And before you are not there, you can't see "IT".
And thats not just limited to men...
Who fears women to have the same experience, has a certain fear, but not knowledge, except about male ego, and that is often a reason for fights.
I once found a little page in the internet, from a young japanese woman (student?) in Germany. She realised via some studies, that male dominated societies, also in nature, are much more into wargames than female dominated ones. The later ones to her turned out to be much more relaxed and letting things peacefully fall into place, so to say.
This may not be the norm (yes, I know, some empresses, politicians etc.), but the tendency.
Just something to think about.

[Chi65]

There is another part to it:

Artists and women are more often found to be highly sensitive in terms of Synaesthesia, which is now a very respected condition of the brain, and as for the serious researchers, a basic condition of babies of all gender, later limited by trainings, teachings etc. to adapt out societies. But some survived and for good and will be further on.
Being open to an inner translater, that goes syn, is of basic advantage for survival and also a fine receptor for such energies, waves, as some rightly say.
Yet, not everyone has the same syns going on, as we know very well, but a finetuning is not silenced any more, as often and for long with few exceptions, in contrary, and we may find out much more in the future thus.
By the way, there are some remarkable studies on the way about "music of the stars", saying, that certain waves do in fact make sounds and reach us this way.

[SushiShin]

No one can descide what God is or who God is.
You just believe in God or not.
We can't judge that God is female or male.

It's a spirit that guides us.
I pray sometimes to God, but then again it's God.
I also go to shrines and i pray to God even there is a Buddha in front of my nose, i still pray to God.

Its a energy wave that binds people to have faith in something.
God is everywhere, even if you don't believe, God is next to you, God is in everyone.

There is a story i told to a lot of persons and this story goes like this:

There was a guy who needed aid from God and on a day he and God spoke.
He said to God: God im in need of your presence can you please come? I will make dinner and i'll set the table for us both.
God replied: Okay, i'll come tommorrow.
The following day:

The man waited and stared at the door.
It started to rain and in neighbourhood someone had a disfunction with his car.
He went to our friend and ringed at the door.
The guy thought it was God and he ran to the door.

Guy: God? ow hello what can i do for you?
Person: Sorry to bother but i have a slight problem with my car could you help me? if you can't no problem then ill just ask someone else.
Guy: So sorry friend but im waiting for someone special.

some hours later the guy is looking suspicious, ''Where could he be?"

some hours after that a collegue came and asked to our friend if he could join the barbecue.
Guy: No, sorry pal not today im waiting for someone special.
Person: Okay no problem catch you later on work.

at the end of the day he stared at the watch and he started to meditate and he asked to God:

Guy: God? Can you hear me? Why didn't you came? I've waited for you and I even set the table for us.
God replied and said in these words: My dearest friend twice i came and you didn't see me.

[Derfel]

That brings up a question, can a wave have a will? Is a wave controlled by something? we always refer to physical laws and powers... but what are they? Why do they exist? What makes or lets them exist? Are the permanent or temporary?

[Chi65]

That brings up a question, can a wave have a will? Is a wave controlled by something? we always refer to physical laws and powers... but what are they? Why do they exist? What makes or lets them exist? Are the permanent or temporary?

A will is something active in a way, but a waiting can despite the absence of activity also be a willing state and attract the opposite thus.

Even the absence of activity can be a willing state, like in poles in science, and as such attract the opposite.
No side is thus good or bad, it simply keeps it moving in between and can even turn into the opposite.

As a scientist's daughter, I never had problems with this nor did I ask about it, it was much too clear by itself.
I happened to like the book of changes (I-ching) therefor for long, considering, that they used their own so far known examples.
The ying-yang idea was thus easy, and still is.
(only the male-female diversion as such was misunderstandable, but as a general pole-idea, it was easy to translate)

What makes a see saw move?
I mean, isn't it enough, that it sometimes moves, sometimes not?
But would one rate any side?
Watching turns tells you all you have to know.

[Chi65]

interesting article:

Music from the Stars

http://www.firstscience.com/home/articles/space/music-from-the-stars_7229.html

[Mars Man]

I couldn't help but notice that there are some major definition problems within the discussion here. In that I have been touching on one god-model in another thread, I will not do so here, but would think that it'd be good for this thread to come to terms on the definitions first of all...otherwise it'd look more like something for chit chat & misc., would it not?

Thanks for that link, chi65 san, it seemed to add a little more imaginative emotion than the actually studies would probably have cared to deduce, but it was infomative. I would argue that any object's oscillation, in and of itself, would have no bearing on the concept of god...as such concept has come down to us from our ancient past.

That we today can attach and overlay concepts on top of what had come down to us, in aggregate, is a given, but then, actually, we need not use the word 'god' any longer--for the ignorance of past views yet emanates too strongly from it.

Therefore, rather than saying 'god is X,' we need no more than simply identify 'x' as being 'x'.

[scorpion da black]

there is no proof that God exists, however, if any one tries and thinks logically about this, God is a great explanation for our existance and a great reason for making us greater people, better in morals and duties.

knowing that some one exists to watch over you, protect you, grant you help when needed, carries your burdens, promisses you a better life...is great.

any one can live without believing in god, but that is a lonely existance...to feel like there is no protector, no one to depend on in hardship, to feel like life has no reason and goals....
i feel sad for such existance...
i prefer to believe in God, to believe that there is a life beyond this which is brighter.
i went through a lot of hardships in my life, many times, where i was in near death sitiuations....and i was saved....it gives relief and peace to feel like there is some one up there watching over me.
it eases my pain , and gives me a reason to smile...

[Sarapva]

Imagine a mountain, that you can walk up from different sides, but once you are up, you can see the many paths all around you. And that the top is there for everyone.
And before you are not there, you can't see "IT"....

...male dominated societies, also in nature, are much more into wargames than female dominated ones.

That's a good example, Chi65, of climbing a mountain. There are so many things that we can't see but know are there. And I think there is something about the male/female yin/yang - each is an extreme, but needs both to be complemented and whole.

Thanks for that story, Herbal Shin - that's like Jesus' saying "What you do for the least of you, you do for me."

Mars Man - I don't know if we could refrain from using the word "God" in this thread. The topic of the thread is how to define God - if we settled on a definition, that would end the thread!

There are parts of the "Tao Te Ching" that really make sense to me, and seem to explain what I think of as God, or the energy around us:

The Tao is infinite, eternal.
Why is it eternal?
It was never born;
thus it can never die.
Why is it infinite?
It has no desires for itself;
thus it is present for all beings.

It is always present within you.
You can use it any way you want.

It is hidden but always present.
I don't know who gave birth to it.
It is older than God.

The more you use it, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it, the less you understand.

Hold on to the center.

We join spokes together in a wheel,
but it is the center hole
that makes the wagon move.

We shape clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that holds whatever we want.

We work with being,
but non-being is what we use.

Yes, Scorpion da black - I think we're all part of a whole, and to feel that we're alone makes life harder. I like the analogy that we're each a part of one body, and the different parts have different duties - alone we can't do much, but all of us together make up the whole.

[scorpion da black]

thanks sarapva, that has a great view for humanity.
but again life is not fair with every one...and it hasnt been with me ...

[Mars Man]

Mars Man - I don't know if we could refrain from using the word "God" in this thread. The topic of the thread is how to define God - if we settled on a definition, that would end the thread!

BINGO ! on the first clause, false on the second one.

If we were to really consider it, no, it would not end the thread. It would simply mean that we would not come to the conclusion that all god-models are one and the same; that's all.

Can you see what I'm getting at?

[Liver Shot]

My opinion, which like all of your opinions, have no evidence to back them up. We can only make (hopefully) logical conclusions given our observations and personal beliefs. So I say:

God is a creation of mankind to help him/her cope with seemingly uncontrollable events in life. Many claim they cannot function without some sort of belief in a higher power. I'm just not one of those people. I can live a happy, enjoyable life believing that we are just an animal with an overactive cerebral cortex that complicates matters far more than are needed. I love all people and I wish peace on all of them, but religion (which stems from organized groups of God-believers) usually causes endless amounts of sufferring on all sides. It is used as a tool of the power hungry to control the indoctrinated masses. It's not different than any propaganda machine or cult. Sure, there are truly selfless religious people that aren't trying to gain power. Missionaries are a good example. But these selfless people are just the indoctrinated masses themselves, who are in the .0001% that actually abandon a selfish life (which 99+% of us live, let's be honest) to help others. I also believe that these good people would have been good people regardless of belief in a higher power or not.

[Chi65]

Sarapva,
perfect, if it would have been available at that moment, I would have used the very same lines about Tao (I coped with a chinese friend about this and more, thus am familiar with that corner as well...and at times I am sneeking around tibetan buddhist centers, or Shingon, my jap. favourites, as for Goma etc. etc.).
The Tao is a perfect example, how humankind can very well and happily live without a god-image. To me VERY grown up indeed.

Any discussion as for which name for what, in my opinion leads nowhere, except in circles, from according experiences, since every word in itself is a limitaion of "all names".
You just can't pin it down to one name, or in general pin something down, thats in every turn also its opposite. (even if some god-lovers wish to see devil as the other side, its not, pure turned to stone nonsense, and as elitary image only causes pain to many, thats the real problem!)
But you can very well do it via (often moving) artwork on that level.
No over-daddy or -mummy needed here. Who needs it, fine, I don't, but I do believe in (or better experienced) a kind of a certain timeless network, that makes sense all along, and above all, more often than not is very funny.

There is/are common denominators somhow, and I simply find it more interesting to find those meeting points (of course, they differ nevertheless, Mars Man, but not all the way, and thats the most interesting aspect to me - just to me?)

Herbal Shin, yep, I knew that one, very good one indeed! :wave:

[Mars Man]

You'll have to forgive me, Chi65 san, I just can't seem to put together a coherent image of what you are trying to get across. Please don't think bad of me for this; I just can't quite get it.

Any discussion as for which name for what, in my opinion leads nowhere, except in circles, from according experiences, since every word in itself is a limitaion of "all names".

Could I please get you to rephrase this section a little more concretely? I would guess that you were speaking of the act of attaching the word 'god' (in English, at least) on a certain thing which otherwise has a name...say, energy, love, or money...am I correct in my understanding?

There is/are common denominators somhow, and I simply find it more interesting to find those meeting points (of course, they differ nevertheless, Mars Man, but not all the way, and thats the most interesting aspect to me - just to me?)

Again, after going over it a number of times, predicate by predicate, syntactically, and by association, I still cannot feel settled about it. I'm missing something here, and just can't pin it down either. One point is the referent for the connecting element of those possible 'common denominators.' It appears that you are speaking of this as an intersecting point for several things, and I kind of speculate that those several things might be those which people sometimes want to call 'god' for some reason. Is that understanding anywhere correct? or am I still too far off?

Then, I have gut feeling that my earlier point, being somewhat skimpy on information I know...my bad...sorry, was misconstrued. I had been talking about the classic referent for the source word 'god' in the English language, which historically speaking, has definite references. For that reason, we cannot historically ascribe the term 'god' to, say, a wave length, because a wave length is a wave length.

[Mycernius]

there is no proof that God exists, however, if any one tries and thinks logically about this, God is a great explanation for our existance and a great reason for making us greater people, better in morals and duties.
knowing that some one exists to watch over you, protect you, grant you help when needed, carries your burdens, promisses you a better life...is great.
any one can live without believing in god, but that is a lonely existance...to feel like there is no protector, no one to depend on in hardship, to feel like life has no reason and goals....
i feel sad for such existance...

No, if you think logically about it the less chance that the answer is God. God did not gives us morals. In fact if people lived according to some of the morals in abrahmic relgions then this world would be a more violent place with oppression being the watchword.
My life is not lonely, and you will find many atheists probably have a much happier life than having to constantly worry about whether some great sky pixie is measuring you against a set of impossible goals. If you want to have support for problems I find people a much better answer than a god. They at least can answer and actually help you rather than trying to interpret whether some passage in a holy books means trun left or right in life, or if a bird flying south is a good omen.
i prefer to believe in God, to believe that there is a life beyond this which is brighter.
i went through a lot of hardships in my life, many times, where i was in near death sitiuations....and i was saved....it gives relief and peace to feel like there is some one up there watching over me.
it eases my pain , and gives me a reason to smile...
What, did God come down and actually help you, or was it people around you that saved you?

[Derfel]

Atheism is just as dangerous as religion, because there's no salvation in the end, so everything counts, all you got is your short life here on earth, and the nothingness after.
That can easily make some people rather desperate.
Search the answer in people? Thats quite a barren idea, just as barren as relying on dogmatic books. It sucks, but everything in life that has anything to do with peoples' opinion is quite subjective, and it can't be helped. There are two kinds of people, weak and strong willed, both types can be found among atheists and religious people too. Atheism is a replacement for religion and vice versa, those who claim to be atheists are no atheists at all, the real atheists are those that simply don't know the term "God", never heard of anything supernatural.

[scorpion da black]

Mecernius

you have freedom to seek what ever that makes you happy in life...whate ever that soothes your pain and what ever makes you satisfied with your life...
you have the right to choose what ever faith you want...even if it is not believing in God.
if that makes you feel better about your self then so shall it be.
everyone gets to his conclusions through experiences they lived...you obviously dont need a God to be there for you.

as for me ... life is dark and misreable with out that some one giving me a reason to carry on...what is my motive in life? what is the reason i am here?
i can only find answer through religion, it is a quest i pass through to reach the brighter end.
and unlike you i find that if people abide by my religion it would be in greater shape than now. ( that is my faith, not that i am forcing you to believe so )

as for the number of times i was saved, it was no human...there is no one to depend on to be there for you...it was like i was cought and shielded from fire and set in peace when too much death was around me.
in my every day life i feel God in action.
even when i look at the stars......what great coincidence, that the size of the sun and its distance from the moon are propotional ecactly to make an eclipse...
atheists say its coincidence....i say it is proof of God's creation.

[Derfel]

I see atheism like this:
R is a religious person and A is an atheist.

R "Please tell me what is behind X phenomenon?"
A "There has to be a scientific explanation, which we unfortunately don't know yet."
R "What about this other Y phenomenon?"
A "As of now science has no answer for it, and probably won't have one in the next 9795784 million years but its definitely not God. Please wait patiently for the answer!"
R "I see, well in that case what about Z pheno..."
A "BLOODY HELL, DON'T YOU GET IT YOUR GOD DOESN'T FOOKIN EXIST!!11ONEONE"

Yes, a completely valid explanation, we can't answer it therefore we are correct.
I believe its better to give an invalid explanation and correct it afterwards if there's need to do so than to say nothing and feel victorious for being correct.

[Liver Shot]

Atheism is just as dangerous as religion, because there's no salvation in the end, so everything counts, all you got is your short life here on earth, and the nothingness after.

Exactly, there is nothing after this. Therefore, if you are a good person (like myself:-)) you want to make this life count. You want to try and ease the sufferring of as many people as possible. If I don't think someone gets another chance at life, I want to try and get as many people to have agood life now as possible.

That can easily make some people rather desperate.

Not if you look at it the way I just did. It's only seemingly desperate if you think atheists aren't good and compassionate people that want to help human beings, which is simply untrue. I know a lot of atheists that are better people than ones that believe in God, and of course vice-versa.

Search the answer in people? Thats quite a barren idea, just as barren as relying on dogmatic books. It sucks, but everything in life that has anything to do with peoples' opinion is quite subjective, and it can't be helped. There are two kinds of people, weak and strong willed, both types can be found among atheists and religious people too. Atheism is a replacement for religion and vice versa, those who claim to be atheists are no atheists at all, the real atheists are those that simply don't know the term "God", never heard of anything supernatural.

Atheism is not a substitute for religion because there is no widespred organization that groups atheists together. It is very different from a religion.

And relying on people is far less "barren," than relying on an intangible force.

[Derfel]

One needn't rely on either of those, one has to rely on himself. Everything I believe is true in my case, in my instance, for my life, and my observations justify it, same for everyone else. Truth varies a lot, everyones' observations are their own truths. For that personal truth I don't need religion, I don't need to believe in God, neither to question his existence. God in my instance is how I imagine him based on my impressions and observations made.

[Liver Shot]

I believe its better to give an invalid explanation and correct it afterwards if there's need to do so than to say nothing and feel victorious for being correct.

So, to extend this idea, if someone is sick and we don't know why, we should just start treating them with any type of drug in hopes it works? Hey, it's probably wrong, but it's better to make a mistake now?

That is completely illogical. It is better to assume something is false and later accept it then accept it first and later reject it. What you would have (believing in God with no evidence) is a Type I error, vs. my way of thinking which is a Type II error. Statistics always tells us to prefer a Type II error.

Think about it this way: your type of thinking would put a man in jail for life for a crime he might not have committed. However, if it seems he might have done it, we should throw him away anyway, right? I mean, we can't let a guy who is very possibly a criminal out.

My way says don't put him in jail unless we are 100% sure. I'd rather say he didn't do the crime (God doesn't exist) now, continue to gather evidence (ditto for the God argument), and correct or retain my decision not to jail him later (change my idea or not of God's existence later). Thankfully, at least in this country, the legal system is supposed to err on the side of caution and not imprison someone unless they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[scorpion da black]

people think they can rely on their own strength to walk through life without giving though about God...

being strong in my case is harder than not being strong. now i need some one to believe in ...some one stronger than me in my mind.. so that i would not be cocky with what i have, and i wouldnt Bully people around....
knowing a stronger supreme one will smite me if i wrath havoc on people is great to make me humble...and great to motivate me in using this strength for good.

so Derfel...whether weak or strong...God is a must in life...

[Derfel]

Your examples are completely on a different level, claiming that God exists has no consequences, so why not say that yes, he truly does exist? Its not like anyone's gonna die cause you claim that God indeed exists.
But say, you've got a patient with a serious fever, you don't have a clue about the reason, so in your case you'd just wait till he dies and wait for your grand grand grandchildren to solve the mystery? Or perhaps you'd give him a kind of medicine that helped in similar cases?

[scorpion da black]

much logical.
we are at the same wave leangth here :-)

[Derfel]

God is a must in my life as well, but my God is different, my God isn't Jhwh, nor Allah, nor the Christian God, my God is what I make of him. My God is a reflection of what I consider right, and I always agree with my God, i sometimes feel ashamed in front of him, sometimes guilty, but generally i try to live according to his will, which is my own, but unlike his will, mine is weaker, bends more easily, so I need my God to always point at the directions which I deep inside with my subconsciousness consider right and just. Religion can go and do whatever it wants, my God is always right in my eyes, and im not going to take back a single percent of that because I would have to lie if i did so. You don't have to accept that im right, nor do I have to accept that you are right, if I somehow accept that you are right, its because deep down i agree and not because you convinced me. Trust me, you have your individual God too.

[scorpion da black]

that is so true, and i so agree.
Allah (God) becomes your concience.
prophet Muhammed said:" obey God as if you can see him, eventhough you cant...he can still see you"

that is exactly how any one feels about God Derfel , even in my faith

[Chi65]

You'll have to forgive me, Chi65 san, I just can't seem to put together a coherent image of what you are trying to get across. Please don't think bad of me for this; I just can't quite get it.
Could I please get you to rephrase this section a little more concretely? I would guess that you were speaking of the act of attaching the word 'god' (in English, at least) on a certain thing which otherwise has a name...say, energy, love, or money...am I correct in my understanding?
Again, after going over it a number of times, predicate by predicate, syntactically, and by association, I still cannot feel settled about it. I'm missing something here, and just can't pin it down either. One point is the referent for the connecting element of those possible 'common denominators.' It appears that you are speaking of this as an intersecting point for several things, and I kind of speculate that those several things might be those which people sometimes want to call 'god' for some reason. Is that understanding anywhere correct? or am I still too far off?
Then, I have gut feeling that my earlier point, being somewhat skimpy on information I know...my bad...sorry, was misconstrued. I had been talking about the classic referent for the source word 'god' in the English language, which historically speaking, has definite references. For that reason, we cannot historically ascribe the term 'god' to, say, a wave length, because a wave length is a wave length.
:-)
If it were that easy, no one would have any problems with each other's understanding. . .and the system of this forum does not make it much easier for me.
We could sit together and I could draw it pretty quickly, but...
No way of thinking bad of you (I find you very stimulating most of the time!), please don't with me either, english simply is not my native language, and the theme a never ending story anyhow.
But, OK. As for the attaching, you are right, but not far enough, because there are understandings, that say everything IS (includes) god, thus every name as well, yet no name is fixed, because in other languages and cultures it keeps on changing, also its meaning, you see?
The idea in several thought-/belief-systems often is, only all, everything is god, but as well every smallest aspect can lead you to the top/center, or can be seen as an as important part of the whole, even the emptiness. . .
and out of the smallest seed you can get a whole wood and more etc.
Thus, whenever you relate to just one name, you maybe stuck pretty soon, if you cannot draw a cycle, circle of constant faster or slower changes.
Words are limitations like "one way of looking at things", yet, if one is aware of the interwoven structure of a wordweb, you can accept other words as well. But if not, you will maybe defend "your" word, simply because it is your personal keyword, while your neighbour maybe uses another one. And he/she may have found out another path to be good for him/her too.
How puzzling, if as a child you get told, there is only your way and the others are non-believers and have to be told or changed, rather than listen to them first.
I am just trying to relate to a german proverb:
"Name ist Schall und Rauch", name means nothing, free translation.
but also to the fine story from Herbal Shin, in a way (with its: all and everything could be god)
If one starts fighting over the "right" name, understanding, one has already lost the point.
As for the other quote, no, you are not too far off at all, but ask someone about a concert experience for example. One would talk about complete emotional bliss, others about musical qualities, again others about the whole band/orchestra and the surrounding hall and acoustics etc.
Lets pretend, everybody was happy and it was a real fine concert.
In that case, you only get the idea like a puzzle, if you have not been there yourself, but even if, you may become aware of the many ways of seeing/perceiving it, while talking about it afterwards.
Do you get an idea, what I mean with the common denominator?
In this case, its the concert, that has touched them, but it can as much be an important aha-moment, or what is "holy" (or touches or has touched you very deeply) for you and why etc., to make it more easy(I hope).
And as for synnies, we perceive many different "wavelengths" of all kinds from a word, and nothing is "solid" anyhow, even if at first glance it appears to be so (this still excites me since childhood), which is why I can "reorganise" under special conditions and also send out "informations".
Sorry, but my usual artistic non verbal perception feels pressed into a little black wordbox here and probably adds to confusion today.
Not quite, what a language teacher would be comfortable with (but I as much appreciate your view!).
I just feel reminded on an english teacher in Tokyo, who had some interesting ideas for an exhibition, also using forms of bread etc. to combine with (western) letters and colours and other stuff for some words or associative installations on the walls., that could be read, touched, smelled, etc.
And during the opening, of course, several of his students were there, it was very interesting!
(Sorry, will be busy with some work at home next time maybe, a visitor coming).

[Derfel]

that is so true, and i so agree.
Allah (God) becomes your concience.
prophet Muhammed said:" obey God as if you can see him, eventhough you cant...he can still see you"
that is exactly how any one feels about God Derfel , even in my faith

Yes, but when you believe in nothing but your personal God, and answer to no one but him every other religion and ideology becomes irrelevant, all the so-called truths that are carved into stone become irrelevant too. You view them with skepticism and a question: "Just why the hell should I agree with someone who's dead for more than a thousand years (im saying thousand to include all the relevant prophets), never saw the world as it is now yet he makes statements about what is white and what is black. No, I have no need for that. My personal God who sees through my eyes will tell differentiate the shades for me, and not someone whom I don't even know and never will.

[Sarapva]

If we were to really consider it, no, it would not end the thread. It would simply mean that we would not come to the conclusion that all god-models are one and the same; that's all.
Can you see what I'm getting at?

I'm not sure I do understand, Mars Man - are you saying that we all have different ideas about what God is and can agree on that?

posted by Chi65
...but I do believe in (or better experienced) a kind of a certain timeless network, that makes sense all along, and above all, more often than not is very funny.

This is what I think of as "God" - not a human form necessarily, but an all-encompassing energy that we can be aware of or not. If we use it, our lives seem to flow in a harmonious way, but if we go against it things don't work well for us.

posted by Scorpion da black:
...as for the number of times i was saved, it was no human...there is no one to depend on to be there for you...it was like i was cought and shielded from fire and set in peace when too much death was around me.

Yes, I think this is how a lot of people come to believe in God (or a power outside themselves). When you're in a life-or-death situation (like in a war or car accident, plane crash, etc.) and you escape death or being seriously injured, believing that something outside yourself has helped is a natural conclusion. I've also been in some situations where my life was spared when I could easily have been killed, and it's humbling - it makes you realize you're not in control. These experiences have helped shape my belief that there is definitely a "higher power" that is in control. We just sometimes have the illusion that we're in control of our lives.

[Sarapva]

... my God is what I make of him. My God is a reflection of what I consider right, and I always agree with my God, i sometimes feel ashamed in front of him, sometimes guilty, but generally i try to live according to his will, which is my own, but unlike his will, mine is weaker, bends more easily, so I need my God to always point at the directions which I deep inside with my subconsciousness consider right and just.

This is what I mean too, by "energy" - "God" to each of us is a personal thing. We're all "right" about what God is.

posted by Chi65:
Do you get an idea, what I mean with the common denominator?
In this case, its the concert, that has touched them, but it can as much be an important aha-moment, or what is "holy" (or touches or has touched you very deeply)

This is also the same thing! God is different to each of us, but also basically the same.

[scorpion da black]

well seprava
that happens often here...
life and death sitiuations that is

[Sarapva]

well seprava
that happens often here...
life and death sitiuations that is

When I lived in Alaska I had quite a few life and death situations - probably because it has an extreme climate (and is called "the land of extremes"). It's also not developed as much as the rest of the U.S. and you're pretty much on the edge of the wilderness all the time.

[Mycernius]

even when i look at the stars......what great coincidence, that the size of the sun and its distance from the moon are propotional ecactly to make an eclipse...
atheists say its coincidence....i say it is proof of God's creation.
That is incorrect and a fallacy. The moons does not perfectly cover the sun in an eclipse. It is either too large, where you get a total eclipse and the sun can't be seen, or an annular eclipse, where the moon is too far to completely cover the moon. The moons orbit around the sun is ellipitcal and is not proportionally exact. In fact several million years ago the moon orbit was further out and the face changed. Gravity of the moon and earth are slowing the moons spin down. In several thousand years time the moon will always be at the same place in the sky in a geo-syncronis orbit.

Atheism is just as dangerous as religion, because there's no salvation in the end,
Why do you need slavation. We are an animal that has evolved to the point where we can grasp abstract ideas like God. That all gods are abstract ideas that man has used in the past to answer question that he can't answer ie: a bronze age man didn't know what caused thunder, so a higher spirit must do it. We know now what causes thunder, it is a natural phenonmen. We die like all animals. Why are we any special from a wasp or a cow?

[Liver Shot]

When I lived in Alaska I had quite a few life and death situations - probably because it has an extreme climate (and is called "the land of extremes"). It's also not developed as much as the rest of the U.S. and you're pretty much on the edge of the wilderness all the time.

Ever read "Into the Wild" by Jon Krakauer, about the guy that starved to death up in Alaska?

[Derfel]

My view is not that alien from yours Mycernius, I indeed admit that we're animals, but we're rather imperfect, we made a step forward, we're smart, we're sharp, we act all high and mighty... but at the same time we don't know what the heck to do with all the knowledge. We know many things, but we have no answer and that truly scares the living **** out of most people.
Do you like the idea of dying and decomposing? I for one don't, I'd rather burn in hell forever and ever than lose my consciousness. Even if its just pain and suffering I want to feel something, even if im punished for all my remaining years, eternally, forever I still want to have my thoughts, I still want to have my personality.
We're different from a wasp or a cow... we're animals all the same, but they weren't given the gift of overwhelming comprehension, nor have they been cursed by the curse of overwhelming comprehension. For better or for worse, they don't know what will happen to them, on the other hand we know how f****d we are. We know that there might not be a "heaven" and we might die and rot for good.

[Liver Shot]

My view is not that alien from yours Mycernius, I indeed admit that we're animals, but we're rather imperfect, we made a step forward, we're smart, we're sharp, we act all high and mighty... but at the same time we don't know what the heck to do with all the knowledge. We know many things, but we have no answer and that truly scares the living **** out of most people.
Do you like the idea of dying and decomposing? I for one don't, I'd rather burn in hell forever and ever than lost my consciousness. Even if its just pain and suffering I want to feel something, even if im punished for all my remaining years, eternally, forever I still want to have my thoughts, I still want to have my personality.
We're different from a wasp or a cow... we're animals all the same, but they weren't given the gift of overwhelming comprehension, nor have they been cursed by the curse of overwhelming comprehension. For better or for worse, they don't know what will happen to them, on the other hand we know how f****d we are. We know that there might not be a "heaven" and we might die and rot for good.

This is obviously coming from someone who has never been through extensive torture, starvation, etc. I think if you had experience with those things, you'd probably strongly reconsider.

[Derfel]

Never, I would never reconsider, you don't know how bloody afraid I am of death.

[scorpion da black]

fear of death is fearing the ambigous step laying after...
i think God can sooth that thought.

wel mycernius...dont be so closed to one idea...view every thing in this universe..and tell me sint a proof of a greater power to creat ...???
no coincidence can make such unique being.

[Liver Shot]

Never, I would never reconsider, you don't know how bloody afraid I am of death.

Once again, you've never gone through these things, so I don't think your opinion is a very well educated one. Many Cambodians, for example, committed suicide during the reign of the Khmer Rouge in the 1970s due to starvation and torture. Apparently for many people, life can be unbearable under these types of situations. Since you haven't been through anything like that, I don't see how you can speak as if you know such pain.

[Sarapva]

Ever read "Into the Wild" by Jon Krakauer, about the guy that starved to death up in Alaska?

I haven't read that yet, but I heard about it when it came out. I think that happened when I was in Alaska, in the '80s. I remember hearing about a man when I was there (I think it's the same man) who wrote a journal of his experiences and knew he was about to die, and I think he was living in an abandoned school bus. He was in an isolated spot and got weaker and weaker from starvation.

posted by Mycernius:
That is incorrect and a fallacy. The moons does not perfectly cover the sun in an eclipse.

I think this is not getting the point Scorpion da black was making, which (if I'm right) is a wonderment of our universe that leads us to think there must be a higher power behind it. It doesn't matter what the exact scientific explanation is.

posted by Derfel:
Never, I would never reconsider, you don't know how bloody afraid I am of death.

I can understand how thinking about death can make a person afraid - actually terrified. After all, we're all going to die - we know that and can't escape it. But I think if you looked for some books, Derfel, about near death experiences, it might help calm these thoughts. So many people say that getting near to death was a peaceful, very soothing experience. And of course I don't believe that we're unconscious after death.

[Kinsao]

Now, I haven't read all details on this thread, so I might be repeating in my opinion the views of others, too.

I believe there is such a thing as 'God'. I think this is a spirit, and exists as a form of energy (perhaps 'wavelength', as someone suggested earlier?) which is and can be in a physical form, which can be perceptible to us, and in forms measurable by science, and also manifesting itself in ways which are as yet not understood by science. I don't see a conflict between scientific explanations and God - of course the world has to 'work' somehow, and science finds explanations for this that the human brain can understand. We train our brains, we also evolve, we learn and understand more and more, and there is still much more that we do not understand about how the world works. I believe that 'God' is the energy that enabled the universe to come into existence, and that this energy has no beginning and no end (because even if it was created out of the big bang, even the bang must have had a cause, yes?). I believe it caused 'existence' (science has not fully explained this, neither has 'religion') and that this energy and spirit continues to intervene in the physical and spiritual dimensions of the universe continually - in the form of phenomena that are explicable by science, and those that are not yet.

As for suffering, I bring forward the old argument of free will. In order to eradicate all suffering (much of which is caused by human action), it would be necessary to eradicate free will, and why would it be any good for God to have made puppets rather than creatures with free will? We have mental abilities above those of animals in some respects; if this is caused by evolution of our brains, it is scientific but does not deny the existence of God in any way, for why should humans not have evolved that way, whether or not there is a God?

I don't believe that God is anything like an old man in the sky as described by holy books. I think those writers were trying to describe their concept of what God was like, in their own way.

I don't believe that God is male or female, but neither.

As for 'life after death'... I don't believe our existence totally finishes at death, but obviously I can't say what I think it will be like... all I can say is that it will probably be completely like nothing we could possibly imagine. I don't see it as a comforting thought; rather, if I was an atheist, all well and good, I would love to just concentrate on having fun in this life, quite the contrary from wanting to use this opportunity to do good, I would most certainly take a more selfish line! But the belief that our actions have consequences that are in some way eternal, rather than for this life only, entails a lot of responsibility, which sometimes I would much prefer to escape...

[Mars Man]

That we today can attach and overlay concepts on top of what had come down to us, in aggregate, is a given, but then, actually, we need not use the word 'god' any longer--for the ignorance of past views yet emanates too strongly from it.

The point here is that the English word "God" (especially...also god in some usages) has come down to us with a very attached referent.

In Webster's New World, Second College Edition, we find the following under the entry god:

Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature; deity, esp. a male deity.

-[God] in monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe regarded as eternal, infinite, all-powerful, and all-knowing;

In The Oxford English Dictionary, Vol IV, we find in the entry God, the following:

I. In the original pre-Christian sense, and uses thence derived. 1. A superhuman person (regarded as masculine; see Goddess) who is worshipped as having power over nature and the fortunes of mankind; a deity.

Even when applied to the objects of polytheistic worship the word has often a colouring derived from Christian associations. As the use of God as a proper name has throughout the literary period of English been the predominant one, it is natural that the original heathen sense should be sometimes apprehended as a transferred use of the; 'a god', in this view, is a supposed being put in the place of God, or an imperfect conception of God in some of His attributes or relations.

II. In the specific Christian and monotheistic sense. The one object of supreme adoration; the Creator and Ruler of the universe. (Now always with initial capital.)

This highlights the problem of imagery and sense with the English word "God." For that reason, when the proper noun as applied by the Abrahamic belief-systems is not intended to be referred to nor associated with (as those three systems model the different shades of their separate data bases) the word would best be avoided. This is the argument I stand by.


"what do you mean by 'god'?" The OP title, as colored and nuanced by this quote (which comes up twice in the OP) must be looked at more carefully here for this thread.

This is not a matter of saying 'x is god,' but rather one of saying, 'god is x. (and there is a difference) This is true in that, for example, if to the question 'what do you mean by [the word] god?' we were to answer, 'I mean energy.,' we would be left with the summary that 'energy is god'--which we know is not true, because energy is, without any doubt, energy. The referent for the word 'energy' is fixed in our language already.

If a person were to say, instead, that 'god is energy,' then we could summarize with 'god consists of/is made up of energy,' which would not be denying already concluded English definitions. However, even, by simply using the English word 'god' (not even "God") we can run into problems because the imagery and descriptive clauses which had been used to support and conceptualize that term from way back when, firstly leave us with the Christian concept of the deity, as defined in those two dictionaries.

If we were to substitute the word 'god' (or "God") with the word 'ultimate', then we could make some assertions along the line that we have been doing. Energy is the ultimate. The universe is the ultimate. Such statements leave out the usual religio-historical baggage that most always accompanies the word 'god.'

The follow up portion, about why then, if we chose to keep the word god, we would come to the conclusion that their is no agreement on a single god-model, in the next post

[Skullcrushergurl]

Ugh. Never mix science and spirituality. You get thread topics like this one.
GOD has no definiton.
People type his name in lower case like he's just a thing or put a star in place of a letter. Idiots. We have to answer to someone and God is that person.
Christians have been made to believe that God is male. I don't have too much of an opinion there. But I do believe in God. I wish humans would stop making everything complicated. Either you believe in God or you don't but don't EVER try to mix God with science.
If you don't believe in God, at least have respect for "the creator" whom is known as God. You may have you different beliefs about him/her/it but at least respect the person that created you!

[Derfel]

We simplify the term because we're humans, our comprehension lacks, for example, you wouldn't call him a person otherwise, as surely if he exists he isn't a person, but an entity of a sort.

[Mars Man]

Skullcrushergurl chan, allow me, please, the opportunity to sit down with you and spend a few posts encouraging introspective meditation, and discussing a few matters of 'cultural linguistics'--of sorts.

For one, it is important to focus on what the essence of the word science is; what it signifies at heart. The term 'science' draws out the fundimental essence of 'knowing'--for which reason we have branches such as pure science, natural science, and so on. Whatever it is that we may claim to 'know,' we can say is 'science.' And, for that very reason, Skullcrushergurl, we are quite right in testing any and all claims to 'know.'


GOD has no definiton.

May I ask just why you say that? Could I please patiently suggest that you explain your thought fully? Would you please allow me to urge you to reason through on what the meaning of the sentence would ultimately be?

Could I please ask you to take a little time, run through all the details, and then make an outlined thesis on how a person is supposed to have respect for something that they do not believe to be true?

I would also wish to encourage deeper thought over just how we could make the claim that a single person created me--for example. I am pretty certain that since the homo sapien is not asexual--like the sand lizard in the Southwest United States desert, that just reproduces out of its own DNA--we need two people to create us.

* * * * * * * *

We already have evidence here of the matter which I am putting forth. Here and now, today, we have recieved an idea/concept/teaching which is very much rooted in the Judeo-Christian past. Regardless of all the New Age, politically correct attitudes adopted by the Christian-based religionists of the past 100 or so years, a full and exhaustive study will quite easily reveal the essential roots of definition and referent discription of what has come to be "God" in our English language.

To escape from that entrapment, we need to set aside the usage of that word--for as I have said before, and will persistently argue--it is too heavily burned by old thinking which has not stood the test of time.

What ever happened to Valhalla, (sp?) or Thor, or Baal? As you would have guessed, such imagery simply does not come to mind in the brains of most English speakers when there is any association activity upon hearing the word "God", or god, is there?

[Mycernius]

GOD has no definiton.
The ever favourite refuge of the theist. I always come up against this. It is like a refusal to discuss God or gods.
I don't have too much of an opinion there. But I do believe in God.
Which one? There are plenty to choose from.
Either you believe in God or you don't but don't EVER try to mix God with science.
Why not? YE creationists and ID believers do this all the time. Yet when sensible science comes along to disprove all thier "facts" they come out with God and science must be seperate. They try the one rule for us and one rule for you a lot and get all sulky when we don't play by their rules.
If you don't believe in God, at least have respect for "the creator" whom is known as God. You may have you different beliefs about him/her/it but at least respect the person that created you!
I do respect my creators. They are called my mother and father, not some sky spirit.:okashii:

[Pachipro]

It is said that God created us in His image. Now why would God be a human looking individual when there is probably much life out there in this vast universe of ours that may look similar to us, but not completely? Is it not man himself that gave God that image? And is that other life in the universe made in His image also? Then God would have to be a chameleon. That's very arrogant of the human race if you ask me.

God, to me, is an onipotent being who does not possess a human looking body, but is instead a spirit, a light, or conciousness if you will. To say we understand what and who God is and what He (why a He? why not an it or a She?) may look like and then to proclaim that He looks like us is the epitomy of arrogance. Especially when we have not even ventured to the nearest planet yet or even come close to understanding even 1/100 of 1% of this universe. Also, it is said that no man has ever seen the face of God so why give him human characteristics which are fallible to begin with?

There is absolutely no proof that God dictated the Bible to mere man and why do we insist on giving "Him" human features and personality and characteristics? We are told that "He" is a vengeful, jealous God and demands that we bow down before him and worship Him or suffer His wrath as a consequence. Then we are told that we have free will, given to us by God to do as we please! Sounds contradictory to me. If that be the case then God is no different from us mere mortal human beings and He suffers from the same shortcomings such as jealousy and pride. Sorry, but I cannot swallow that. If that be the case, then that is no God of mine, nor do I want Him to be.

God, as has been falsly taught to us through the ages through the writings of man only, is NOT the true God in my opinion, nor is any other God of any other religion as they all seem to have human characteristics which I refuse to believe. A true God would be above that.

In my mind, the true God, or spirit, or Great Conciousness, or whatever is a very loving God who loves us unconditionally regardless of whether we accept him or not and "He" does not judge us nor will he make us suffer for our actions.

We do have free will and if we fail to follow the right path we must come back to this life again to right our ways for if there really was a God similar to what we have been taught, in human form, He would stop all the wars and killing and corruption and different religions, and let us know that there is only one God and one way, but that is not His job. His job is to stay out of the way and let us find our own way to Him by doing what is right and not following the false teachings of man and the "fallen angels".

We are here on this strange planet of dark and light, good and bad, positive and negative, etc., for one reason and one reason only and that is to learn right from wrong as the earth itself if basically a bad place inhabited and run by "the fallen angels", if you will, who may never leave this planet. Do we succumb to the "dark side" and get stuck coming back forever and ever or do we eventually learn and rise above to another, higher plane of existance?

That is why we are here and no God will intervene with the learning process we all have to experience. They don't call it "school-house earth" for nothing.

[Sarapva]

We are told that "He" is a vengeful, jealous God and demands that we bow down before him and worship Him or suffer His wrath as a consequence. ... If that be the case then God is no different from us mere mortal human beings and He suffers from the same shortcomings such as jealousy and pride.

A true God would be above that.

In my mind, the true God, or spirit, or Great Conciousness, or whatever is a very loving God who loves us unconditionally regardless of whether we accept him or not and "He" does not judge us nor will he make us suffer for our actions.

We do have free will and if we fail to follow the right path we must come back to this life again to right our ways ...

This is exactly my belief! I don't think God (meaning whatever God is) has our human traits of getting angry when someone doesn't do what we want or the way we want. God would be human then. The reason "he" is God is because he's above all that - he loves us and wants us to do well, but we have to follow our right paths. I think the trouble comes when we get off our paths and try to control things ourselves. But then God patiently waits until we find it again. I say "thank God" for God! We don't need more fallible humans getting angry and destroying things.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I have seen people losing all faith in God because of the most dramtic things happening in their lives. Yet others look for help when there is nothing left in their lives but God.

Nature is my God; the trees, the clouds, the sun, the mountains, the storm, the snow, the lovely flowers. Maybe God is a woman, a mother, who loves us nevertheless all our faults, bad habits, crimes and so on.
I think that most people feel that there is "something" pure, better, more honest, capable of true love, than we are. Or "something"you have to fight for or even have to die for.
Ah well, these are just my ideas and feelings and I don't pretend that I am right.
I am open to all ideas.

[Pachipro]

I couldn't agree with you more Elizabeth-chan!

[Chi65]

Yes, as from my feelings, whenever I am "on my ways" again, I feel closest to "IT"(can be whatever it likes to be), very well also in reach for everything as much as being in reach myself this way, its a wonderfull "being interwoven" feeling, that always cheers me up.
Thank you, Elisabeth van Kampen, shall we go for a walk then? :-)

[Sarapva]

...whenever I am "on my ways" again, I feel closest to "IT"(can be whatever it likes to be), very well also in reach for everything as much as being in reach myself this way, its a wonderfull "being interwoven" feeling, that always cheers me up.

I have this feeling too of being "in the flow" of things sometimes, and I think it means I'm on the right path, or living harmoniously with the "chi".

[Chi65]

Whatever that is, chi, since it has so very many meanings (and annoys scientists ;-))

But right, the flow is what I really like, even a storm belongs to it, its natural in my opinion, and refreshing. (I have been clearly in some taifoon's eyes too, with bright sun, amazing!).
But I am a person, that does not mind surprises in general. Insofar a safety net of one system is even a bit frightening. But maybe an artist and synnie is not very much in need for this. Even my now dead granddad was thinking, fixed structures are not good, moving, moving, was what he suggested. He was a forestier and lived within nature, always healthy, and he became very old. . . if thats not a goal...
It does not work the way, I wished, but the general view is always present.
God? We never talk about, until he once was very annoyed, about christian people, who did not move, but wrapped it all, as he said.
And another (as old, he lately died with 97) uncle studied comparative religions and ended up, living with aborigines in Australia and listening to and writing about them. He could not stand childlike fat angels, amongst others here. . .:-)

[centrajapan]

The reason why Christianity spread about somewhere around 2000 years ago is politics connected with the Roman Empire. The earth is many millions years old. It existed much before Christianity. The Old Testament is filled with metaphores which have similarities with other old books.

If there is no god, no higher power, than all we have to believe in is us and I don't think many people have enough faith in humanity to feel good about that.

Having god then becomes a pretext or an excuse to do something bad and corrupt ourselves, since I am only a human. If there is no god then it is only up to yourself and you have to start to believe in yourself and try to become pure as in purification or enlightment. I sound like a new age priest.Humans don't have all the answers so they create answers which they convert others with either voluntarily or by force.

Alot of people now are saying the Bible is cosmic metaphores. Stars, sun, planet. It could be that ancient civlisations in Peru or in Egyp studied the suns movement and came with mathematical formulas which calculated an age. An age is a time span over a very long period of time. Who comes up with these kind of theories? Archeologists, historians, scientist, media and education and various other institutions.

No one has proved that there is a god no one has proved that there isn't a god either.

[Dimitree]

I am sorry to just have pasted a small chunk of your very well written post there but I especially agreed with this part of it.

Hello :wave:
I don't think that God is an energy :) simply because energy is just a component in the big picture.

[yamahaR1]

the Japanese people are gods

[Chi65]

When they thought so themselves, they got a bomb or two.

When the US thought so, they got the towers blown,

when the Germans thought so, they were smashed, etc.,
etc.

just to remember a few answers. . .

[Mavrek]

Excellent post but I don't believe in all this.

[Chi65]

Hi, maybe you can explain, how you see things from a pakistanian view?
That would be interesting then.

[Mycernius]

Excellent post but I don't believe in all this.
How does that point of view go down in Pakistan?

[Chi65]

How does that point of view go down in Pakistan?
We have someone fine from Pakistan in another forum, there seem to be some that think for themselves. . .but this does not really surprise me, thinking back at those I met in north Pakistan, when there.
If now the fundamentalists wish to spread fear, it may not work the way they think. . .

[Mavrek]

Thanks for an excellent article.The discussion about is unending.There are a lot of views about the God.There is never last and final words about God.