The future of JREF

[thomas]

This thread is dedicated to all comments, reactions and suggestions in regard to our latest announcement re: "The future of JREF". Discuss away!

:)

[PaulTB]

Originally posted by thomas
This thread is dedicated to all comments, reactions and suggestions in regard to our latest announcement re: "The future of JREF". Discuss away!

:)

そうしますっ！

feel that the developments of the past few months

Which I obviously arrived too recently to have caught.

require us to resort to stricter moderation here at the forum in order to enforce certain Rules of Conduct, especially as far as the more popular subsections dealing with pop culture are concerned.

I'm only here for the Japanese Language forum (and the 日本語限定コーナー - if anybody posted there ;-)

I would hope that changes will not include (for instance) per-post, pre-display approval for those forums as that would seriously hamper their utility.

For that matter there is no sticky "Terms of Use" or "Read this before posting!" in those forums so I don't know if I've been breaking any rules of conduct (although I doubt it).

[thomas]

Originally posted by PaulTB
For that matter there is no sticky "Terms of Use" or "Read this before posting!" in those forums so I don't know if I've been breaking any rules of conduct (although I doubt it).

There`s a link to the "Forum Guidelines" at the bottom of each page. Besides, you are supposed to read the rules that are displayed right before you click that infamous "Accept" button while signing up.

;)

[PaulTB]

Originally posted by thomas
Besides, you are supposed to read the rules that are displayed right before you click that infamous "Accept" button while signing up.
Life's too short to read, and remember, everything you have to click [Accept] to on the Internet.

Originally posted by thomas
There`s a link to the "Forum Guidelines" at the bottom of each page.
Hmm, so there is.

Probably I never felt the need to go that far down the screen.

From a user interface point of view I think stickies at the top beat links at the bottom every time.

I _did_ actually look along the
Home | User CP | Calendar | Photo Gallery | Quizzes | Market Square | Members | New Posts | FAQ | Logout
line before posting, and even read the FAQ. Frankly I don't think it's going to be getting much attention down on the botton line of the page.

[jeisan]

ah growing pains. if you guys need any help let me know, even if it is just grub work.

oh yeah and if anyone is like me and found this thread before the announcement, you can read it here. (http://www.jref.com/forum/announcement.php?s=&forumid=22)

[Elizabeth]

It pretty much goes without saying that restricting content not immediately related to Japan should be the guiding principle of any Japan forum and that extraneous riffraff should be eliminated as much as possible, but I'd hardly say the Photo Gallary was the main offender in this regard.

私はその件を静観する態度を取る。
(I'll take a wait and see attitude.) :)

[Glenn]

I, too, initially came here for the Japanese Language Forum and the Japanese Only Forum. However, upon looking through some of the other fora, I found that some of them can go on tangents that, while may not relate directly to Japan, offer an opportunity to express ideas and exchange philosophies. While this may not be the express intent of these fora, I do believe that they can be valuable for understanding different ways of thinking, which contribute to the overall richness of the community, and an understanding of different cultures. I think that losing such contributions would be a shame.

Of course, I suppose that the streamlining is intended to get rid of mindless posts more than intellectual conversations, in which case I would be in favor of the change. The question then would be where would the line be drawn (i.e. what exactly would be considered a mindless post)? I suppose that my question is, exactly what content would be considered inappropriate topics for discussion in the fora?

Also, I liked the member gallery. It was nice to see faces behind the screennames and avatars. However, if it must go to save space, then it must go. I can live with that.

[kirei_na_me]

Excellent, Thomas. Thank you for all that you're doing. It is a welcomed change, in my opinion.

[Winter]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this all turns out.

[Iron Chef]

I welcome the proposed changes and look forward to their implementation.
:)

[Keeni84]

I've not been here for too long, but change is good, in my book! :) Good luck with everything going on. :)

[Iron Chef]

Re: Glenn's statement of "The question then would be where would the line be drawn (i.e. what exactly would be considered a mindless post)? I suppose that my question is, exactly what content would be considered inappropriate topics for discussion in the fora?" it all comes down to common sense and Moderator/Admin discretion. On the whole, I would say that we've been pretty flexible/tolerant up to this point (maybe too much so...) in what is allowed. If you would like an example of what I personally consider "mindless":

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61267#post61267
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61234#post61234
:)

[Hachiko]

And so I say...

Bring it on.

Hopefully these policies will reduce the number of "bumps" on this board. ;) :note: ;)

[noyhauser]

I think we all know my sentiments on this subject after 3 months of ranting on it....

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by Iron Chef
Re: Glenn's statement of "The question then would be where would the line be drawn (i.e. what exactly would be considered a mindless post)? I suppose that my question is, exactly what content would be considered inappropriate topics for discussion in the fora?" it all comes down to common sense and Moderator/Admin discretion. On the whole, I would say that we've been pretty flexible/tolerant up to this point (maybe too much so...) in what is allowed. If you would like an example of what I personally consider "mindless":

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61267#post61267
http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61234#post61234
:)
Why not retroactively close or delete these threads then? Or at least post a master list of content now considered unacceptable so that everyone is on the same page. Weeding here and there at anyone's discretion doesn't seem likely to make much of a dent in the problem, although hopefully simply raising the issue will make common sense a little more common, for the short term anyway. :p

[lineartube]

How about a re-shuffle of topics by age layers? The problem of what is refered as "mindless topics" is because of most of them are made by a young audience who don't have yet the skills for engaging in a intellectual stimulant conversation.
They mean well and shouldn't be alienated just because of their age.
I believe that there shouldn't be uselless repression or supression of topics. Just create different layers in the forum that would allow for everyone to be happy about it. Though I must admit that it probably won't be easy, since in my experience I always dealt with visitors from a vertical market and not a horizontal one. One thing I know is that you can't please everybody, so in the end you have to choose what is your targeted-audience. Whithout that definition you won't go far.

[Shidenkai]

To change the actual status of jref is truly a crime! The end of Jref.:bawling:

[Winter]

In conjunction with lineartube's comment; as older peoples, shouldnt we have developed a tad more patience to tolerate the 'mindless posts'?

After all, they are just children, for the most part.

[Uncle Frank]

To go to a new server that can handle all the bandwidth we need and some left over??? And to leave things the way they are more or less.
Figure in enough bandwidth to run a busy chat room with many members on line.
Now divide the money ammount we need to put us in the futue by the number of really active members. Can it really cost that much?????
I mean I really like things crazy the way it is, and I think we will keep growing if things stay the way they are!!
Could Thomas or someone in admin come up with a dollar figure to give us an idea ????????????

Thanks Frank

[kirei_na_me]

I think lineartube makes some good points.

Also, I think there still needs to be a place where people can talk about light topics. It shouldn't be heavy all the time. Not everyone has the time to master Kanji and not everyone knows every single solitary detail of Japanese history. Then again, not everyone wants to log on here and see nothing but the gazillionth *sweatdrop* as the latest post in that thread.

This is a break for me sometimes. I mean, here I am. 27 years old. Stays at home with kids 24/7. Doesn't get out that much anymore, especially in all this damn snow and ice. Adult conversation is rare, and when I do find it, it is with people that don't have much of a brain. They can only talk about getting their nails done or getting their roots touched up. It's just kind of fun to come in here and chat around with a diverse group of people. Whether it be about where to find rice flour, what's on the mp3 player, or if we think Japan is an intellectual country.

Just need to find balance somehow...

[Maciamo]

Just to reassure those afraid not to be able to discuss non-Japan related matters or just be branded as mindless, we are going to keep the chit-chat section. However, we are also going to separate it into "easy chit-chat" and "serious discussion", so that everybody knows their place.

[lineartube]

My personal opinion about the Jref foruns is that I also like them the way it is, but I also knew that there is always room for improvement, so in the end a revolution might not be needed and the creation of what Maciamo refered as the splitting of the chit-chat section might be a positive step.

[Glenn]

Indeed splitting sections would be good (i.e. the heavy versus light post disparity). However, if the problem is bandwidth then there will only be so much room for everything, in which case it would seem that in order to free up space either the criteria for being allowed membership would have to be tightened, or the nature of what is allowed to be posted would have to be limited.

Sure kids are kids and mean well and all, and I do suppose that we should be able to look past some of the one line "lol" posts, but if these are what is eating up space, then it seems that they should be the first to go, IMHO. After all, does "yeah, lol" relate to Japan in any significant way? If bandwidth weren't a problem, then I wouldn't have too much of a problem with these types of posts, because I try to stray away from them anyway. However, it seems to me that this is a problem, unless I am missing the whole argument for restructuring the fora. Am I missing the point?

Also, I can see Iron Chef's point about the posts to which he linked (and I agree with his discretion), but these seem to me to be obvious examples. I suppose these types of posts will be the only ones restricted by the proposed new rules. Am I right, or is there more grey area?

[kirei_na_me]

There have been a few threads I wish I and could've deleted altogether(not including spam or other extremely obvious ones, of course). You know, how many threads are there that are pretty much about the exact same thing? That's one of the things I'm looking forward to. Maybe having a clearer line drawn, so that decision will be easier to make.

[Glenn]

That is a good point. I have seen already in the month that I have been here the same question asked numerous times. I suppose that it would be impossible to make people use the search function, but perhaps an FAQ section (for threads, in addition to the more technical aspects of navigating the site, etc.)? Of course, this may be more trouble than it is worth, but I wonder... Maybe there is some other way to eliminate these multiple postings of topics.

[Winter]

I think this problem solves itself. In most message boards, when someone posts a topic thats been done before, the other members single them out, and down right attack them for being redundant.

In other words, when it comes to things like that, the members take care of it usually. You cant get much better than that.

[lineartube]

Now that I had a bit more time to think about it, I think that there shouldn't be any radical changes. Sure, that the Information topology, like the categories and topics, could be reshuffled and improved, but in the whole, I think the forum is ok because this is a community, and though a virtual one, its strenght isn't shown by its strong points or weak points, but by the overall experience that it allows to give to its visitors.

Discussing about creating even more sub-foruns is conter-productive. That will only lead to more confusion and one day, without you know it, you'll need a manual (or a tour guide) just to know in which forum a person should post. Not to mention that it borders on Eugenics. "Lets get rid of dumb people and put them in special places. Where does it begins? Where does it stop?"

Good or bad topics, they all contribute to the Jref Foruns experience, and as long as the excesses of guide lines are curbed, it will be fine.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by Winter
I think this problem solves itself. In most message boards, when someone posts a topic thats been done before, the other members single them out, and down right attack them for being redundant.

In other words, when it comes to things like that, the members take care of it usually. You cant get much better than that.
I'm not quite sure why that isn't more the norm here, although much of the untidiness in the language forum at least is from members registering to ask one or two questions only to eventually drop out, or in many cases never ever be heard from again. So you have to wonder whether most of them would take any attack about as seriously as they seem to consider other members' time and energy before doing any preliminary searching/translating themselves in the first place. For reasons I can't begin to fathom, there have even been cases with back to back, word for word identical threads "I want to LEARN JAPANESE!" or "My name in KANJI!" and so it goes, on and on and on..... :p

[deborah gormley]

I think the changes that Thomas and maciamo purpose would be great for the forum:bow:
How-ever I have my reservations:bluush: I dont speak Japanese:blush: and I only know things about Japan because I learned them here!
I first logged on to the forum in search for a pen-pal, "looking for Keiko" but I have yet to locate her, but the friends I have made here and the time I spend her are truely irraplaceable(spell?):love: these changes are scary to the likes of me!!!. I call this forum "my forum" to my friends and family, and they all know that this forum means a lot to me! I do appreicate that changes will be made and people will have to ajust! I just want to know if people like me will still have a purpose!!!
@maciamo,,, your remarks of the forum having the easy chit-chat section makes me feel better! :clap:

[Keeni84]

I am confused about what you mean about layering of ages...Would it be something like, only 15-19 year olds can post here, and 15-19 year olds can post here, and 20+ can post everywhere, or what???

Or are you trying to eliminate the younger folks here all together??

If you are thinking about doing that, all I can say is: Don't! Making kids post in certain areas because of age is just wrong. I believe that each poster should be criticized based on his or her own posts---not of those from his or her peers.

There are older folks here who make silly posts as well, and younger folks who make intelligent conversation.

Maybe I am still a little confused about what you guys want.

[Maciamo]

Originally posted by Elizabeth
For reasons I can't begin to fathom, there have even been cases with back to back, word for word identical threads "I want to LEARN JAPANESE!" or "My name in KANJI!" and so it goes, on and on and on..... :p

For this very reason, I have posted some new guidelines (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61768#post61768) in the Japanese language section yesterday.

[Maciamo]

Originally posted by Keeni84
I am confused about what you mean about layering of ages...Would it be something like, only 15-19 year olds can post here, and 15-19 year olds can post here, and 20+ can post everywhere, or what???


Don't worry this is not going to happen. Age is not a criteria in itself for the quality of posts. If I was really worry about "kids" posting immature comments, I would set the bar at 12, not 19. On the other hand there are grown-ups that are more immature than kids.

I am aware than teenagers represent a considerable part of the forum members, and we should therefore cope with them, not discriminate them on basis of their age.

[Keeni84]

Oh, okay, thank you guys! I was a little confused, is all. I agree with Elizabeth, though---seeing I want to LEARN JAPANESE for 5 lines straight just doesn't get us anywhere.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by Maciamo
For this very reason, I have posted some new guidelines (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61768#post61768) in the Japanese language section yesterday.
Thanks, Maciamo. Another issue that comes up at least every other week it seems is the process of downloading Japanese fonts and Global IME for Windows or other operating systems. Pinning a link such as this for initial review might be another useful step.

http://www.jref.com/japanese/

[deborah gormley]

@J-ref forum,, hummmm \I am probably one of the biggest culpruts of posting off threads and off on tangents:bow: That I have too recognise and bow too!! I"m also part of the immature section, (althouht I"m 34 years of age) hahaha Where do I groupe??? (I have particiapated quite a lot,, In non Japanese topics) and again I bow and accept!!:bluush: :o :bow: how-ever I have every confidence that the J-ref and maciamo begining will be that of the most exceptional and unbeleivable beginnings:bow:
I welcome there beginings and the change!! as a new member!!! opened armed and accepting what the new member brings!!!:bow: :bow:

[Mandylion]

Sounds great to me. Esp. in the photo galleries. Keep up the good work!

[Uncle Frank]

Man, thank God the Forum is back up. The past few weeks have been SOOOOOO LONELY!!! Now we just have to get in touch with all the old timers & let them know we're up !!

Frank

[deborah gormley]

Hmmm but how do we conquer that mountain!!! maybe Thomas/maciamo,, could have a solution!!! without a lot of hassle of course! those guys need a rest now!!!(bow) You both have done an excellent job!!! rest and come back satisfied!!
your forum needs you!!

[Uncle Frank]

probably like getting a helicopter kit, putting it together, and flying it !
I don't think I would want to try it without alot of professional help !!
Glad you got it up & flying gentlemen, CONGRATS !!!

Frank

[deborah gormley]

we members are delighted!! this forum mean alot to alot of people! me included:note:
@ franks discription of contacting members lolol,, hhhmmmm thats sounds about right!!:bawling: well lets see what happens??? :angel:

[Eternal Wind]

hope for more to return to the forum ne!

[Shinmeiryu]

Originally posted by Eternal Wind
hope for more to return to the forum ne!

I don't think we'll have to worry too much about that with the new upgrade to the current best php forum software out there. Ah yes, so many useful options. :happy:

[Ewok85]

I almost fell over when i logged on and found this forum gone! You could have left a message :bawling:

But its good to see its back, im a little worried about some of these 'changes' that your proposing. My suggestion is that you add a message and lock unwanted posts, serving as an example to others and like someone else said, most of the time the regulars will bombard dumb posts till they are dead anyhow.

Another thing is half the fun of the internet is not knowing exactly who you are talking to. Im only 18 but i could probably pull off any age in the scale of 12-50 if I tried hard enough. Such is the internet.

Good work, keep it up! :rose: