ARTICLE: Japan rewrites its sex slave history

[thomas]

The following article has been featured in The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/) on 31 March, 2001:

Japan rewrites its sex slave history

By Stephen Lunn, Tokyo correspondent

[b]The winners write history, it is said. In Japan's case, it seems, the loser rewrites it.[7b]

The Hiroshima High Court this week overturned the only ruling ever given in favour of the "comfort women" � women mostly from South Korea, The Philippines and China forced into military brothels to provide sex for Japan's Imperial Army during its military expansion of the 1930s and then World War II.
The ruling coincides with the release of a new film, Merdeka, being launched by supporters of Japan's nationalist right wing that portrays Japanese troops during the 1930s as liberating heroes, freeing countries such as Indonesia from their colonial oppressors.

Earlier this year, despite outrage from China and South Korea, the Japanese Government refused to intervene in the authorisation of a junior high school history text written by right-wing historians that, according to its opponents, ignored the plight of the sex slaves and claimed Japanese military occupation had a positive effect on south-east Asian nations, freeing them from Western rule.

Even famous Japanese manga (comic) cartoonist Yoshinori Kobayashi has got into the act this month, with a series of cartoons depicting Taiwanese women volunteering to act as "comfort women" for the Japanese army troops. Kobayashi has since been banned from visiting Taiwan.

The Hiroshima Court's ruling must have been all the more galling for the three South Korean women who originally won their case in 1998, because they brought the appeal claiming the 900,000 yen ($14,700) damages award was too little. They were seeking up to Y396 million.

The court reversed the lower court's ruling in favour of the abused women, saying it had no right to ignore Japan's constitution, under which the government is not required to apologise for wartime actions or to provide compensation for any suffering.

"I hate the Japanese. I don't feel like thinking of anything for now," Pak Du-ri, 76, one of the former sex slaves who brought the action, said after the court's verdict on Thursday.

Lawyers for the women said they would appeal the ruling to Japan's Supreme Court.

While the court's position was basically that any such compensation or apology must come from the parliament after a change in the constitution, there is considerable doubt the Government would be inclined to help, given its position on the textbook issue and its fears of a backlash from nationalist supporters.

The group responsible for compiling the new history text, led by Kanji Nishio, a professor at the state-run University of Electro-Communications, maintains the present authorised textbooks are biased and full of overly apologetic self-denigration.

The new textbook, to be introduced into the curriculum for the school year beginning on Monday, has infuriated South Korea's parliament.

"Japan's distortion of historical facts is to betray all humankind in the world who aspire for democracy and peace, as well as a serious challenge to Asian neighbours that fell victim to Japan's imperialism," a resolution passed by the parliament said.

Copyright ｩ The Australian

[名無し]

Another Comfort Woman Passes Away (http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200402/kt2004022621060910620.htm)A native of Hadong, South Kyongsang Province, Chung was dragged off as a sexual slave when she was just 13 years old in 1937.

She left home thinking she was going to work at a factory in Japan to help release her father from the Japanese, but what later followed was eight years of being raped by Japanese soldiers in Indonesia.The first Japanese soldiers' attack in Dutch Indonesia was in 1942.
Whoever wrote this article didn't even know that? How was it possible that they raped her between 1937 and 1941, in Indonesia??


This is a very short timeline of events there in 1942:
Jan. 1 Army starts landing Tarakan Island, the very first attack
Jan. 11 Navy paratroops land Manado city in Sulawesi Island
Feb. 27 Battle of Java Sea
Mar. 1 16 Army led by Liutenant General Hitoshi Imamura lands Java Island
Mar. 9 Dutch surrender

[lineartube]

Hadong is in Korea, therefore she was a Korean and the article does mention that she was dragged around.

Forcing women into prostitution isn't exactly a high moral ground, even for XXth century world standards, so exactly what would be the consequences of the Japanese government acknowledging and apologizing for this particular sad event? Somehow I feel that there is more than money at stake here.

[名無し]

Somehow I feel that there is more than money at stake here.Yes, it is actually a mockery of readers who blindly believe everything they are told.

This is the same news in another newspaper site: An Activist for Comfort Women Dies (http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200402/26/200402262315299779900090409041.html)She died yesterday at her home in Jinhae, South Gyeongsang province at the age of 80.She died on Feb. 26th, 2004 at the age of 80, which means she was born in 1924.Ms. Jeong said that she had been forcibly taken to Indonesia by the Japanese military when she was only 13 years old.Taken to Indonesia when she was 13 years old means it was in 1937.After taking Ms. Jeong from her home in 1937, the Japanese military sent her to Jakarta, Indonesia through Taiwan, China, Thailand and Singapore. Confined in Jakarta for seven years, Ms. Jeong was forced to serve as a sex slave there.Confined in Jakarta (called Batavia before 1942) for seven years means, it was either 1937 to 1944, or 1938 to 1945 considering time spent in Taiwan, China, Thailand and Singapore.

Indonesia was a Dutch colony until the end of 1941. Dutch rule means that there were no Japanese soldiers in Indonesia before 1942.

Had any editor ever thought of double-checking it before this news report was published.

[Lina Inverse]

Yes, it is actually a mockery of readers who blindly believe everything they are told.

This is the same news in another newspaper site: An Activist for Comfort Women Dies (http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200402/26/200402262315299779900090409041.html)She died on Feb. 26th, 2004 at the age of 80, which means she was born in 1924.Taken to Indonesia when she was 13 years old means it was in 1937.Confined in Jakarta (called Batavia before 1942) for seven years means, it was either 1937 to 1944, or 1938 to 1945 considering time spent in Taiwan, China, Thailand and Singapore.

Indonesia was a Dutch colony until the end of 1941. Dutch rule means that there were no Japanese soldiers in Indonesia before 1942.

Had any editor ever thought of double-checking it before this news report was published.
Indeed... seems like they just wanted to bring some anti-Japanese stuff and didn't care for accuracy :okashii:

[digicross]

Well... The fact is that any of the rape was NOT part of the OFFICIAL agenda of the Japanese military.

Prostitution is part of the official agenda, but taking people for prostitution by force was never part of the official agenda.

But... There were people taken by force for prostitution, and these were done by people who are part of the Japanese military (or at least people doing things under the name of the Japanese military), though these people aren't the only ones, there are also people who are not part of the Japanese military.

Why was these rapes were done? Chances are these things are done so that there would be materials to defame the Japanese people, both in the past, the present, and the future.

Those who make a big fuss over rapes are usually aren't the ones who were raped, because they would just prefer to let things pass, but instead those who make a big fuss over it are those who would gain the most over the defamation of the defendant.



As for women being tricked into sexual service that they don't want to do.

These things happened before the Japanese participation in the Pacific war and after, and these things still happen to this very day. And the people responsible for that seems to be already doing this even before World War I.

Women (especially young girls) in a kind of way are innocent people, just like babies. They can be easily tricked.

[Golgo_13]

Wouldn't be the first time a country somewhere on this Earth tried to re-write history.

[urecco]

Wouldn't be the first time a country somewhere on this Earth tried to re-write history.
It is not a historical thing but a political thing.

The movement of "Japanese sex slavery" began in 1980's after the non-fiction novel "watashi no sensouhanzai-my war crime" published.
In the book, the author,Seiji Yoshida,said he had forced many Korean women to work as prostitue.However he confessed that the book is fiction after many people had mentioned errors in it.

Then China and Korea gov'ts re-wrote their history books without any check.
Actually,there are many ex-comfort women who say they were forced to work or tricked to work,but some of them told a lie or,at least, made terrible mistakes when they claimed.Some of them claimed that they were tricked by Korean ,and one of them claimed that she had had 26,145 yen in her bank in 1945,when she could buy a small house in her home town for about 1,000 yen.Above all,if every testimony were trustful,they could not know that it was due to Japanese agenda or even it was done by private brokers which ordered to force korea women to prositute.

There are no real evidence.If there were,China and Korea definitely would have claimed it before the "non-fiction" novel published.
Where could China and Korea find out enough evidence to re-write their history books adding Japanese new war crime?

If there had been more than 10,000 comfort women forced to work, there would have been big campaign or movement against it.

[sabro]

Not this subject too? Japan has acknowledged this crime and appologized. Get over it.

[urecco]

Policitans can't change the history.
Please,read it.
http://coralnet.or.jp/kakichi/qa-1.html

[bossel]

Policitans can't change the history.
Please,read it.
http://coralnet.or.jp/kakichi/qa-1.html
Not that I think your crappy link is worth a response, but well, I can't help it:

From the UNHCHR (http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/7fba5363523b20cdc12565a800312a4b/3d25270b5fa3ea998025665f0032f220?OpenDocument#Appe ndix):

"The present appendix relies exclusively on the facts established in the Japanese Government's own review of the involvement of Japanese military officials in establishing, supervising and maintaining rape centres during the Second World War."

& another one:
http://www.comfort-women.org/Unfinished.htm

[sabro]

I did not know until recently (what I learned on this forum) that there was such a large revisionist movement in Japan. Does anyone know how wide spread the movement to rewrite history in Japan is? How does the average person on the street feel about those who would deny Japan's role in 20th century war crimes?

Honestly, this scares me.

[urecco]

Bossel,First link calls the comfort station "rape camp"
Second one calls the comfort women "sexaul slaves"

there is a simple question.
Did they get paid?

[bossel]

Do you really think it makes much difference for a girl who is forced to work as a "prostitute" whether she gets (a probably rather symbolic amount of) money, or not?

[urecco]

There were some or many comfort women who had decided to became a prositute by their own will.
If they got paid,"comfort stations" should not be called "rape camp" and "comfort women" should not be called "sexual slaves."

They were prostitutes.And the problem is why they became a prostitute.

[bossel]

Redefining history again?

Forced labour is slavery. Being paid doesn't make it really better.

Whether you want to call it slavery or not, I don't care.

[urecco]

How many of them were forced to work?

There were about 8,000 Japanese comfort women.Were they slaves?

In Korea,who forced to work them?

[stupidumboy]

There were two kind of systems for using women workforce during the war period in Japan and Korea. (actually the systems applied for the both countries equally)

One was "挺身隊" a technically 'volunteer corps' -but that was forceful system planned by the Jpanese government to use the women workforce(aged from 12 to 40) for the industrial production in the factories.

And the other is the hot issued "從軍慰安婦" -often so called 'comfort women' who served for the militarymen's sexual desire near the military bases.

The comfort women system was mainly managed by the private keepers of a brothel in both countries but Japanese government encouraged that system by connecting women with private keepers or allowing as many passports as they could.

the Korean women were not paid their saleries by some cheating managers and they misunderstood its all ripped by the government as I think.

[sabro]

Urecco, I hate to ask, but if you got kidnapped and gang raped by a bunch of American convicts, and then they gave you a pack of cigarettes, would that be okay?

[urecco]

There were two kind of systems for using women workforce during the war period in Japan and Korea. (actually the systems applied for the both countries equally)

One was "挺身隊" a technically 'volunteer corps' -but that was forceful system planned by the Jpanese government to use the women workforce(aged from 12 to 40) for the industrial production in the factories.

And the other is the hot issued "從軍慰安婦" -often so called 'comfort women' who served for the militarymen's sexual desire near the military bases.

The comfort women system was mainly managed by the private keepers of a brothel in both countries but Japanese government encouraged that system by connecting women with private keepers or allowing as many passports as they could.

the Korean women were not paid their saleries by some cheating managers and they misunderstood its all ripped by the government as I think.

It's amazing that you know lots of things.
I thought most Korean people do not know the difference between "挺身隊" and "從軍慰安婦".Indeed,the commitee which is tring to protect "comfort women" is called The Korea 挺身隊 *** committee,isn't it.

Japanese gov't encouraged private pimps to recruit or collect prostitutes.
Maybe,because Army did not have spare soldiers to recruit prostitutes or the gov't wanted to avoid crimes committed by soldiers.
Admittedly,some or many pimps deceived and kidnapped women.
However ,according the japanese military record,after knowing it,they ordered to choose the pimps to avoid wired pimps in 1937.
Unfortunately,this order is somethings distorted as "involvement of Japanese Army".
I don't know whether this order succeed or not.

Urecco, I hate to ask, but if you got kidnapped and gang raped by a bunch of American convicts, and then they gave you a pack of cigarettes, would that be okay?
It would not be okey.but this metaphor is unsuitable.

As I said before,not all comfort women were deceived or kidnapped.
And at least,in Korea,the army never deceived or kidnapped but pimps did.
In addition,their advarage wages were not something like packs of cigarettes,but about 800 yen per month whilst the avarage soldiers' wages were about 15 yen per month.
some pimps did not pay well.But soldiers paid moderate fees.

If you got kidnapped and forced to work as a prostitute and could not get paid,who would you hate:customers or pimp?

[TwistedMac]

If you got kidnapped and forced to work as a prostitute and could not get paid,who would you hate:customers or pimp?
both. and with burning passion.

[sabro]

Again, all the accounts I can find say these women (mostly little girls) were kidnapped and raped- forty to sixty times a day, drugged, beaten, starved, dragged around the pacific and finally whoever survived was simply abandoned. But I guess this is okay with you. (Imaginary pimps and paychecks make it so--I guess my metaphor would have to include a pimp for you and more than a pack of cigarettes to be suitable. How much would we have to pay you per month to make brutally gang raping you okay?)

You seem to be privy to some secret information that the Japanese imperial army was a bunch of peace loving boy scouts out on a Sunday picnic. I've looked through all the posts on this forum and I've come to the conclusion that your information is unreliable. Basically you have found information to match your revisionist view and you disregard all the other information. I hope someday you will wake up to the pain, suffering and death Japan caused during the last century. It's not a proud chapter in your history, but like slavery or the genocide of the American Indian in the US, or the holocaust in Germany-- It needs to be remembered.

I keep replying. Why? If you were a neo Nazi I would reply. If your were denying slavery in the US I would reply. If your said that the Native Americans were not that badly treated or that the US was blameless in its conduct in latin America and the Phillipines last century- I would argue with you. Hiding these things would be wrong.

Eventually I will tire and give up, move on to talking about sporks and tatoos. Then you can spout your right wing fairy tales and feel like people believe this misdirected and pathetic drivel.

[urecco]

Did I say it would be okey to be kidnapped?
victims would have hate both.
But whose fault?
pimps.

Did the Army force women work?-no evidence.
Did the Army order pimps to kidnap or deceive women?-no evidence.
Did the Army force women who had been kidnapped and explained it to continue to work?-no evidence.
Unfortunately most Korean girls could not speak Japanese.

Although you said my sources were unreliable,
you haven't even shown any evidence besides Ohta testimony.

Give me sources besides Yoshida confession.

there were no witness, no movement against comfort women and no document which prove Japanese Army forced women to work.

Are revisionists' sources unreliable?
Did 4 million Jews die in Auschwitz? NO
Did nati make soap from human bodies? NO
Did Japanese newspaper boast the civilians killed? NO
What do you think about that?

[bossel]

no document which prove Japanese Army forced women to work.
Look at Rabe's diary again!

Are revisionists' sources unreliable?
Obviously quite often.

Did 4 million Jews die in Auschwitz? NO
Who says so? The number is closer to 1m (960,000 or something). Are you mistaking that for the overall number of Jewish Holocaust victims? Which would be 5 to 6m.

[sabro]

Did I say it would be okey to be kidnapped?
victims would have hate both.
But whose fault?
pimps.

Did the Army force women work?-no evidence.
Did the Army order pimps to kidnap or deceive women?-no evidence.
Did the Army force women who had been kidnapped and explained it to continue to work?-no evidence.
Unfortunately most Korean girls could not speak Japanese.

Although you said my sources were unreliable,
you haven't even shown any evidence besides Ohta testimony.

Give me sources besides Yoshida confession.

there were no witness, no movement against comfort women and no document which prove Japanese Army forced women to work.

Are revisionists' sources unreliable?
Did 4 million Jews die in Auschwitz? NO
Did nati make soap from human bodies? NO
Did Japanese newspaper boast the civilians killed? NO
What do you think about that?

Bossel- thank you very much.

Urecco, you still seem to be saying that the conduct of the Imperial Army was fine with you. That somehow these thousands of women mistook their brutal treatment for a gesture of goodwill. That it wasn't the Army's fault because the women didn't speak Japanese. Somehow these other non-Army people just found these lost and wandering women and decided to pimp them out and scatter them across the pacific. You say there are no witnesses when thousands of soldiers have come forward and thousands of former comfort women have come forward, where documents confirm and investigations have concluded a vast criminal system that victimized thousands of women.

The Nazi's kept great records. They would be insulted and offended by your diminuishing their "accomplishments." They killed well over 6 million Jews. They also murdered communists, homosexuals, the handicapped, gypsies, slavs and political dissenters. They experimented with the harvest of skin, fat for soap, and gold teeth to try to squeeze every penny out of the operation. They figured out the most efficient killing methods and how little gas or coal would be needed to creamate the bodies if the oven were kept hot. They were quite proud of what they had done all the way to the end.

You should skip back and check the refernces that we have attempted to give you on this thread and throughout the forum. Type "comfort women" into google and see what comes up. Ask any old Japanese soldier that was there what he thinks. Because you can read Japanese check out the microfiche of WWII newspapers and read the stories yourself. You yourself have only cited one dubious source-- a right wing revisionist. Others you take out of context or seem to apply only the rosiest interpretation to what they wrote. I have given you my agenda-- not to slam the Japanese or to make them look bad, but to call what you keep posting here utter crap.

I don't think a 40 year old American should have to school a 24 nihonjin about his own history. You should know better.

That is what I think about that.

[urecco]

Look at Rabe's diary again!


Obviously quite often.


Who says so? The number is closer to 1m (960,000 or something). Are you mistaking that for the overall number of Jewish Holocaust victims? Which would be 5 to 6m.
According to the robe's diary,Japanese officer(s) or soldier(s) and the member(s) of red Red Swastika Society went to the university and searched the women who would work as prostitues and the member of Red Swastika Society looked around and picked up some women.They were ex-prostitute.That's why they easily agreed to be comfort women.
I forgot the date.But besides this epsode,Robe never mentioned about comfort women at least in Japanese ver.
It shows that comfort women were nothing but prostitutes.

I know some revisionists distort the information or make fake evidence.
However,it is also true that the mainstream historians use the fake information or never reexamine the "reliable" evidence.

AS you know,now the number of victims who died in Auschwitz is seemed to be about a million.However,the mainstream historinas said 4 million had died until 1990,when USSR dissolved.
You can check the picture of stone monuments.
http://www.white-history.com/numbers.htm
Until 1990,no mainstream histrian said the 4 million victims were doubtful.
Actually,if they had denied the 4 million,they would have been called "revisionists".
The meanstream histrians just followed USSR's statement,
even though there was no reasonable evidence.
4 million killed in Aucshwtz was widely believed for over 40 years.

Many people are still showing the article of "100 killing" as evidence of massacre even though the article never say they killed either civilians or POWs.

Anyway,in Japan,no histrian says that Japanese Army systematically and directly forced women to work as prostitutes.
According to 李栄薫,리이영훈,Lii (Lee) Yeonghun,the professor of Seoul Univ.,
in Korea,no scholar says either.
Are they revisionists?

Unsurprisingly,wikipedia Japanese ver. says the same.
Surprisingly,wikipedia English ver. says roughly the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

Bossel, please check Germany ver.
Sabro,please read wikipedia.

[bossel]

It shows that comfort women were nothing but prostitutes.
I remember that episode quite well, I think. The Japanese officers came there & demanded a certain number of women for their brothels. They didn't know if there were any prostitutes among the women there (neither did the US woman in charge). They discussed for a while & the US American couldn't change the soldiers' mind. Only after another foreigner arrived (or was already there & had just then the idea, don't remember) & (his Chinese aide?) asked, if there were any prostitutes among the women, the impasse ended. Do you really think, the Japanese soldiers would have left without "comfort women", if no prostitutes would have been present?

However,the mainstream historinas said 4 million had died until 1990,when USSR dissolved.
Which mainstream historians? Since I can remember (which means: since the late 70's), nothing has changed in the overall number of 6 million Jews killed. If there would have been a sudden drop in confirmed deaths at Auschwitz of 3m, the total would have had to change as well.

You can check the picture of stone monuments.
If you would have checked thoroughly, you would have seen that the plaques say "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews". Anyway, can't see what a plaque has to do with mainstream history.

http://www.white-history.com/numbers.htm
Oh yeah, that's a great source, very objective. On another page of their site you will find the denial of the existence of gas chambres in Auschwitz.

Surprisingly,wikipedia English ver. says roughly the same thing.
You really see only what you want to. Quotes from Wikipedia:
"it is not correct to categorise all comfort women as voluntary. Many were tricked by fraud or their families were forced to sell these women due to economic hardship, and especially in Japanese colonies some were kidnapped by these middlemen as part of human trafficking"

"especially in the countryside where the presence of middlemen or brothels are rare, the army directly demanded that the local leaders procure women for their brothels. The situation became worse as the war progressed."

"each unit made up the difference by demanding tribute from locals or, more often, by direct looting. Moreover, at this point, when locals, especially Chinese, were considered to be hostile, they carried out the policy known as "purging" (in Japanese 燼滅作戦, in Chinese 三光作戦)"

Bossel, please check Germany ver.
There is no German version of this.

[sabro]

I have a puzzled look on my face. About 200,000 women were exploited by the Imperial Japanese Army in the most brutal and inhuman way. Aha, there were middlemen! And some women were duped! Others were Immoral! I guess that makes it okay.

A plaque was wrong at Auschwitz. Oh, my god?! Urecco I guess you've been right all the time. It's not only the Japanese who were on a benevolent humanitarian crusade, but the Nazi's too.

In case you missed the sarcasm, I'm not being serious. Look at the sites you gave and realize that they confirm what everyone here has been trying to tell you about the evils committed in the last century. I'm sorry that you don't like the truth. But ditch the rose colored glasses and look at it closely. It will make you sick, very sick. But that's a good thing.

[urecco]

I remember that episode quite well, I think. The Japanese officers came there & demanded a certain number of women for their brothels. They didn't know if there were any prostitutes among the women there (neither did the US woman in charge). They discussed for a while & the US American couldn't change the soldiers' mind. Only after another foreigner arrived (or was already there & had just then the idea, don't remember) & (his Chinese aide?) asked, if there were any prostitutes among the women, the impasse ended. Do you really think, the Japanese soldiers would have left without "comfort women", if no prostitutes would have been present?
But, in any case, it is true that Robe did not see that Japanese Army directly forced women to work.


Which mainstream historians? Since I can remember (which means: since the late 70's), nothing has changed in the overall number of 6 million Jews killed. If there would have been a sudden drop in confirmed deaths at Auschwitz of 3m, the total would have had to change as well.

I don't know which ones said that.
But in several countries,minimizing the number of victims of Holocaust was illegal.
And USSR's official statement said the victims were 4 million.
So no mainstream histrians could say it was doubtful,I think.
But I have no source about it.
In my opinion,the plaque was unlikely to mentioned what the mainstream histrians had proved isn't true.

About the total number,what you mentioned is also mentioned by revisionists.
The answer is that total victims were based on the estimates of total population of Jews before the Holocaust and after it.
They say that, at any rate, it is certain that at least 6 million Jews disappeared,so the 3 million Jews must have been killed other places.
If you would have checked thoroughly, you would have seen that the plaques say "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews". Anyway, can't see what a plaque has to do with mainstream history.
What do the plaques saying "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews" imply?


Oh yeah, that's a great source, very objective. On another page of their site you will find the denial of the existence of gas chambres in Auschwitz.
But it does not mean that the plaques are fake.

You really see only what you want to. Quotes from Wikipedia:
"it is not correct to categorise all comfort women as voluntary. Many were tricked by fraud or their families were forced to sell these women due to economic hardship, and especially in Japanese colonies some were kidnapped by these middlemen as part of human trafficking"

"especially in the countryside where the presence of middlemen or brothels are rare, the army directly demanded that the local leaders procure women for their brothels. The situation became worse as the war progressed."

"each unit made up the difference by demanding tribute from locals or, more often, by direct looting. Moreover, at this point, when locals, especially Chinese, were considered to be hostile, they carried out the policy known as "purging" (in Japanese 燼滅作戦, in Chinese 三光作戦)"
I never say that all comfort women were voluntary.
I just said at least in Korea Japanese Army never directly and systematically forced women to work.
Do not ommit the words "once in the front line" for second quote.
燼滅作戦 was carried out in 1940 in order to defeat the guerillas in 河北省　and stopped in 1941.it was horrible order.But I don't know whether they forced women to work at that time,and have never seen the testimony about it.
Of course they might have done it.But I don't know whether it was personal crimes or ordered as a part of policy.

In any case,it is the misconseption that Japanese Army directly forced a large amount of Korean women to work as prostitutes,right?

[bossel]

But, in any case, it is true that Robe did not see that Japanese Army directly forced women to work.
Yeah, right, Rabe himself didn't witness it, hence it didn't happen. Oh, man...


But in several countries,minimizing the number of victims of Holocaust was illegal.
Eg. in Germany it still is.

And USSR's official statement said the victims were 4 million.
So no mainstream histrians could say it was doubtful,I think.
But I have no source about it.
Ever heard of the Cold War? It's rather improbable that any Western historians simply took that number because the SU may have proposed it.

In my opinion,the plaque was unlikely to mentioned what the mainstream histrians had proved isn't true.
Depends, who put it up.

The answer is that total victims were based on the estimates of total population of Jews before the Holocaust and after it.
Only partly, for the greatest part the number is based on detailed records of killed Jews. Even the death squads working behind the front lines in conquered territory had records.

What do the plaques saying "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews" imply?
That not only Jews were killed there. This is common knowledge.

But it does not mean that the plaques are fake.
But it also doesn't make the plaques part of mainstream history.

In any case,it is the misconseption that Japanese Army directly forced a large amount of Korean women to work as prostitutes,right?
Nope. There are enough witnesses to prove otherwise, for what I know.

[sabro]

I am a high school history teacher, but not a holocaust expert. Nor am I an expert on the Nanjing Incident. But I know crap when I see it. For the sake of argument the following figures are for Urecco. The sources are extremely reliable and well documented and also listed if you would like to check them yourself. The great majority of estimates come from German records especially Einsatzgruppen on the eastern front, transportation, concentration camp records, and other surviving SS documentation. It includes reports sent to Himmler from Auschwitz about the number of disposals--dead prisoners exceeding the estimated capacity of 100,000 per month.

Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust
Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown
Table assembled from figures quoted by Milton; Lukas 38-39, 232; Gilbert 824; Berenbaum 123; and Holocaust Internet information sites.

The six million figure used in the Jewish death toll is an estimate for total lives lost. These Jewish lives were taken by a number of groups, not just Nazis. The six million figure includes Jewish lives lost in other countries as well, not just Germany, and by the various modes of killing, not just camp deaths. Ukrainian deaths were due to Russian and Nazi perpetrators alike, some killed on "acquired" German soil, others killed on Russian soil, some killed outright, others slowly worked or starved to death. If Russian Jews, killed on Russian soil by both Nazis and Russians, are considered Holocaust deaths, then the Ukrainians killed alongside them should also be categorized as Holocaust deaths. When groups of people are killed side by side -- in the same manner, by the same perpetrators, for the same reasons (their ethnic identity) -- one cannot separate some from the group and call it a Holocaust and say the others were merely victims of war, or worse, completely ignore their numbers and leave them no record in history. The criteria used to determine the six million Jewish deaths should be the same criteria used for the non-Jews. By using the same criteria for determining Holocaust deaths among all victims, the question of whether non-Jewish deaths were simply victims of war becomes irrelevant.

[jerry4]

can these sins ever be forgiven, let alone erased?

[sabro]

People are trying to erase them all the time.

[urecco]

Bossel sorry for not replying long.

Yeah, right, Rabe himself didn't witness it, hence it didn't happen. Oh, man...
I asked you to give me an example of the witnesses.
then you gave me Robe.
But Robe did not see it.

you should give me another one or admit there were no witnesses.

But it also doesn't make the plaques part of mainstream history.
AFAIK,no historians keep the number of 4 million killed in Auschwitz.

Nope. There are enough witnesses to prove otherwise, for what I know.

who?

@sabro

Did I deny whole Holocaust?
I just meant some information was incorrect.

[sabro]

If you look at the table and explaination above, it hints at the extensive research and documentation that goes into such history. You attempt to "correct" history however seems to be more of an attempt to rewrite and excuse the attrocities of the past. Standing in the company of holocaust deniers is probably a poor way of finding the truth.

[lemiel]

I'm South korean 25years old,
I was suprised by this post's replies. no Evidence. only Prostitution, no rape.
Why? I have grand mother 82years old. and many Korean people that lived when Japan controlled korea still live. young koreans heard that Sex slave story named '從軍慰安婦' ARMY COMFOT GIRL by their grand parents lived when korean was colony.

First, I maybe must thanks about Japan's this crime.
My grand mother did not want marry. But she had to marry my grand father. why?
at that time, Japan colony government officials took unmarried woman or school girl. they said ' For great japan empire, You must serve in factory, Government will give fair pay...'

prostitution was, is, will be.. Yes, it's true. but, In the modern age, Which nation government trick school girl, unmarried woman and make sex slave in the army? It can be recognized by modern japanese?

at that time, In position of Japan goverment, Korean school girl and unmarried woman were Member of Japan empire. Which nation government trick their people, made them sexslave? It's not Crime? If present Japan government do same thing to japanese, Will Japan people say 'prostitution was always.'?

What evidence? many Koreans that remembered that time live until now. They do not Die all. They can not be witness?

Japan could be Leader of East asia. But japan is not leader. why? why many young korean hate japanese? Japan has big power of military, politic, economic, But japan says, "Usa's dirty crime of bomb and nuke, we were the injured party...."
Japan did not say "We did crime in asia, we apologize to Chinese, Korean, Eastern south asia people.." Some japanese even Said "We were Protector of asia against western great powers"

How can german be leader of EU? They recognized their fault, and Apologize their crime many times. Now Who do critisize german? All people say "German is model of conscience" German's historical enemy, France is best friend of german.

How about japan? Japan can say "prostitution can be always..." Nobody can be true freind of japan. and at that time, Japan people was the injured party by Japan empire and military clique, too. Do japanese want to live in same situation?

[urecco]

I'm South korean 25years old,
I was suprised by this post's replies. no Evidence. only Prostitution, no rape.
Why? I have grand mother 82years old. and many Korean people that lived when Japan controlled korea still live. young koreans heard that Sex slave story named '從軍慰安婦' ARMY COMFOT GIRL by their grand parents lived when korean was colony.

First, I maybe must thanks about Japan's this crime.
My grand mother did not want marry. But she had to marry my grand father. why?
at that time, Japan colony government officials took unmarried woman or school girl. they said ' For great japan empire, You must serve in factory, Government will give fair pay...'

prostitution was, is, will be.. Yes, it's true. but, In the modern age, Which nation government trick school girl, unmarried woman and make sex slave in the army? It can be recognized by modern japanese?

you must not know the difference between "挺身隊" a technically 'volunteer corps' and "慰安婦' Comfort women as neither many Korean.
What you heard from your gramdmotehr was mere rumour.

at that time, In position of Japan goverment, Korean school girl and unmarried woman were Member of Japan empire. Which nation government trick their people, made them sexslave? It's not Crime? If present Japan government do same thing to japanese, Will Japan people say 'prostitution was always.'?

Government never tricked or forced.It was done by private middlemen and Japan tried to prevent that crime.

What evidence? many Koreans that remembered that time live until now. They do not Die all. They can not be witness?

there are no reliable testimonies.

Please read it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#The_Japanese_debate_over_comfort_wom en
What caused this issue is the novel written by Yoshida in 1983.

[bossel]

Government never tricked or forced.It was done by private middlemen and Japan tried to prevent that crime.
From your very link:
"However, since 1992, when the historian Yoshimi Yoshiaki discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited or coerced women into service)"

there are no reliable testimonies.
Nope, probably there are no reliable testimonies you like to see. That's a difference.

[urecco]

From your very link:
"However, since 1992, when the historian Yoshimi Yoshiaki discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited or coerced women into service)"

What you quoted is the reason why many Korean and even some Japanese believe the military forced them to work.
However it is distorted information.
And now even Yoshimi Yoshiaki does not say the military forced them to work.
1992, the paper also published the discovery of documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in selecting the agents who recruited these women into service. The article implied that the document is a smoking gun, proving the government's complicty in the forcible kidnapping of women. The publication of the article was just five days before Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa paid a visit to South Korea. Miyazawa made a formal apology during that visit. However, the investigation by Hata Ikuhiko subsequently discovered that the entire Jeju Island episode documented in Yoshida's book to be a fiction, which the author of the book later admitted. Moreover, the supposedly incriminating documents proving the military's involvement in selecting the agents in fact showed that the military issued such directives to prevent abuse, in response to reports of complaints from the colonial police force about the methods employed by these agents. And it was shown that some of these women were sold by their parents to these agents as bonded labour, a practice not uncommon at the time both in Japan and in Korea.

Nope, probably there are no reliable testimonies you like to see. That's a difference.
Okay give me one which show that the military systematically forced Korean women to work.

[bossel]

Okay give me one which show that the military systematically forced Korean women to work.
You're quite funny in a way. How should a Korean comfort woman testify systematic coercion? She can only witness her own case & that of a few others she met in the brothel.

[urecco]

You're quite funny in a way. How should a Korean comfort woman testify systematic coercion? She can only witness her own case & that of a few others she met in the brothel.
What's the answer.
Korean women had no way to know the systematic coercion.
And there are no documents that shows systematic coercion done by the military.On the contrary,there is a document which shows that Japan gave the order to prevent kidnapping and deceiving.

Think about it.
The victims could not know if they were forced by individual Japanese soldiers or the military order.(the testimonies saying that are rare though)
There are no documents that prove the military forced.
There is a document that prove the military tried to prevent kidnapping.
Who can conclude that the military forced women?

The reason why this issue rose is the so-called "non-fiction" novel written by Yoshida and campaign of apologizing about it done by Yoshida and Asahi Shinbun.
However,the novel was proved to be fiction.
Thus,in Japan,no historians say Japan forced women to be Comfort Women.

What is the reason you think there was systematic forceful coercion?

What is your opinon?
1 everyone was directly coerced by the military(no middlemen)
2 middlemen(agents) had the order(permission) to kidnap or deceive.
3 Both middlemen and the military coerced.
4 middlemen coerced in bad way against the law.

please give me atestimony which backs your opinon up,if you can.

[bossel]

http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148675&postcount=11

And there are no documents that shows systematic coercion done by the military.
Liar!? Why then this "Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women" (http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/pmletter.html)?

& why does the UNHCR say this (see my post linked above):
"The present appendix relies exclusively on the facts established in the Japanese Government's own review of the involvement of Japanese military officials in establishing, supervising and maintaining rape centres during the Second World War."

Thus,in Japan,no historians say Japan forced women to be Comfort Women.
Liar!? Yoshiaki Yoshimi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231120338/103-2131171-9649430?v=glance) is still on the issue.
Others seem to have a similar stance:
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/index-english.htm

What is the reason you think there was systematic forceful coercion?
History.

1 everyone was directly coerced by the military(no middlemen)
2 middlemen(agents) had the order(permission) to kidnap or deceive.
3 Both middlemen and the military coerced.
4 middlemen coerced in bad way against the law.
#3

please give me atestimony which backs your opinon up,if you can.
See sources above. & even the Japanese Asian Women's Fund (not really loved in Korea) admits (http://www.awf.or.jp/english/about/archives/1993_1.html) "there were even cases where administrative/ military personnel directly took part in the recruitments."

[urecco]

Liar!? Why then this "Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women" (http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/pmletter.html)?

He did not say the military directly forced them to work.
Why am I a liar?
In any case,I should have said no "historical document".


& why does the UNHCR say this (see my post linked above):
"The present appendix relies exclusively on the facts established in the Japanese Government's own review of the involvement of Japanese military officials in establishing, supervising and maintaining rape centres during the Second World War."

Comfort stations were settled where the military was.So the military must have involved the establishing,supervising and maintaining.However,Comfort stations were not rape centres and the issue is the way of recruitment.


Liar!? Yoshiaki Yoshimi (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231120338/103-2131171-9649430?v=glance) is still on the issue.
As you know,the one who find the document of involvement of the military is Yoshiaki Yoshimi.He said Japan forced them to work.
But many people argued that this involvement was for preventing illegal recruitment and does not mean Japan forced them to work.
Then he changed his mind.
I don't know when the book of Japanese ver. published,but now he does not say Japan forced them to work.
what he says now is like "the parents sold the daughters.why? because of porvery.why they are poor? Because Japan did not ruled well.It means that Japan forced Korean people to be in the condition they needed to sell their daughter. So it is Japan's fault. the government need to apologize and compansate"
He coined the word "a broad sense of forcible recruitment".
In Japan,the issue is simply if there was forcible recruitment (by the military) or not.
Even now he will say "Yes,there was" but it dose not mean the military forced them to work.

Others seem to have a similar stance:
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/index-english.htm

Totsuka is a layer not a historian.
please see interesting news about him.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040616a8.htm
Agents were arrested for kidnapping and deceiving and punished.
That means gov't never allowed agents to kidnap or deceive.


History.

Could you show me any books or articles which mentioned about forcible recruitment of Comfort women written by 1980?


See sources above. & even the Japanese Asian Women's Fund (not really loved in Korea) admits (http://www.awf.or.jp/english/about/archives/1993_1.html) "there were even cases where administrative/ military personnel directly took part in the recruitments."

Personnel took part in it as individuals.
There were no systematic recruitments.At leaset no proof.

[bossel]

He did not say the military directly forced them to work.
Ah, of course, not directly. Why didn't I indulge in those wonderful wordplays?

Comfort stations were settled where the military was.So the military must have involved the establishing,supervising and maintaining.However,Comfort stations were not rape centres and the issue is the way of recruitment.
From the UNHCHR link:
"These facts, as stipulated by the Japanese Government, clearly demonstrate that contrary to repeated claims that the so-called "comfort women" "worked" in privately administered brothels, the women, many of whom were still children at the time, were in fact enslaved in rape centres either directly by the Japanese military or with the full knowledge and support of the Japanese military. The women and children who were held there against their will inside these "comfort stations" were then subjected to acts of rape and sexual violence on such a massive scale that the nature of the crime may only properly be described as a crime against humanity."

In Japan,the issue is simply if there was forcible recruitment (by the military) or not.
Maybe in Japan. In the rest of the world the issue is responsibility of Japan (-ese government & military authorities).

Totsuka is a layer not a historian.
please see interesting news about him.
Totsuka? Don't know this name (& I don't know, why you insist on professional historians. Just being a historian doesn't make you an expert on the issue of comfort women [else I would be an expert, too. why then argue with me?]). Look at this list (http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/appeal1.htm) on the same website, you'll find the names of some Japanese historians, if you need.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040616a8.htm
Agents were arrested for kidnapping and deceiving and punished.
That means gov't never allowed agents to kidnap or deceive.
Now you're getting freakin' funny! From the article:
"The lower court ruling state that the 15 Japanese women were taken to the brothel in Shanghai from Nagasaki in 1932, even though they were told they would work at diners for Japanese military personnel or at restaurants in Shanghai."
Hence this court ruling is pretty much unrelated to the question whether the Japanese government condoned, allowed or supported the coercion of non-Japanese women into sex slavery.

Could you show me any books or articles which mentioned about forcible recruitment of Comfort women written by 1980?
Why?

Personnel took part in it as individuals.
Whether systematic or not, doesn't really matter (also from the UNHCHR):
"a Government and its officials could be held liable for violations of international law under a theory of "original liability" for acts performed by a Government and "actions of the lower agents or private individuals as are performed at the Government's command or with its authorization"
[...]
The responsible State is then liable "to pay compensation for injurious acts of its officials which, although unauthorized, fall within the normal scope of their duties".
[...]
Thus, Japan is liable for the actions of its military and any of its agents, including the private individuals who ran and profited from "comfort stations" at the request of the Japanese military."

[urecco]

Ah, of course, not directly. Why didn't I indulge in those wonderful wordplays?

As you mentioned, Japan had responsiblility to prevent crimes.But it did not work perfectly.So he appologized.

What I asked you to show is any document which shows systematic coercion.
And you did not show it.

From the UNHCHR link:
"These facts, as stipulated by the Japanese Government, clearly demonstrate that contrary to repeated claims that the so-called "comfort women" "worked" in privately administered brothels, the women, many of whom were still children at the time, were in fact enslaved in rape centres either directly by the Japanese military or with the full knowledge and support of the Japanese military. The women and children who were held there against their will inside these "comfort stations" were then subjected to acts of rape and sexual violence on such a massive scale that the nature of the crime may only properly be described as a crime against humanity."

What Japanese government says is written the link which you showed.
http://www.awf.or.jp/english/about/archives/1993_1.html
Can you show the original article of Japanese government which says Comfort Stations were rape camps?


Totsuka? Don't know this name (& I don't know, why you insist on professional historians. Just being a historian doesn't make you an expert on the issue of comfort women [else I would be an expert, too. why then argue with me?]). Look at this list (http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/appeal1.htm) on the same website, you'll find the names of some Japanese historians, if you need.

I said "Any historians now do not say "the military directly coerced them"
And you said "Liar!?" and showed the link.
From the link I found him.So I said he is not a historian (I did not lie).

Now you're getting freakin' funny! From the article:
"The lower court ruling state that the 15 Japanese women were taken to the brothel in Shanghai from Nagasaki in 1932, even though they were told they would work at diners for Japanese military personnel or at restaurants in Shanghai."
Hence this court ruling is pretty much unrelated to the question whether the Japanese government condoned, allowed or supported the coercion of non-Japanese women into sex slavery.

He is using that incident as a proof of "Comfort Women."
So I implied he is not a good researcher.
Korean were technically Japanese though.

Why?

I mentioned how this issue broke up and the begining was fabrication.
And no real evidence has been found.

You said history is the reason why you think there was systematic coercion.
so I wanted to know what is history.

Whether systematic or not, doesn't really matter (also from the UNHCHR):
"a Government and its officials could be held liable for violations of international law under a theory of "original liability" for acts performed by a Government and "actions of the lower agents or private individuals as are performed at the Government's command or with its authorization"
[...]
The responsible State is then liable "to pay compensation for injurious acts of its officials which, although unauthorized, fall within the normal scope of their duties".
[...]
Thus, Japan is liable for the actions of its military and any of its agents, including the private individuals who ran and profited from "comfort stations" at the request of the Japanese military."

Any Korean people have no right to get compansation for the Japanese act due to the treaty in 1965.
So Korea should pay everything.

And as you mentioned, Koizumi already apologized about Comfort women.

There are no need to write about individual crimes in the textbooks.

There is a big difference between individual crimes and systematic crimes of the military or authorities.

Think about it.
There were Mafia in Germany, and they kidnapped foreign women and forced them to provide sex.There were even cases that soldiers took part in the kidnapping.
Victim said "I was kidnapped by a German soldier."

Would you say the German military forced them to provide sex?

[bossel]

As you mentioned, Japan had responsiblility to prevent crimes.But it did not work perfectly.So he appologized.
To use your own methods here: He did not apologise directly for not being able to prevent crimes. He said "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women." Involvement goes a bit further than being "unable to prevent."

What I asked you to show is any document which shows systematic coercion.
And you did not show it.
There is not one single document (that I know of). There is enough evidence to give a general picture of the involvement of the Japanese military, though.

Coomaraswamy report to the UN: (http://www.comfort-women.org/coomaras.htm)
"the consistency of the accounts of women from quite different parts of South-East Asia of the manner in which they were recruited and the clear involvement of the military and Government at different levels is indisputable.
[...]
The first comfort stations under direct Japanese control were those in Shanghai in 1932, and there is first-hand evidence of official involvement in their establishment. One of the commanders of the Shanghai campaign, Lieutenant―General Okamura Yasuji, confessed in his memoirs to have been the original proponent of comfort stations for the military."

International Commission of Jurists: (http://www.comfort-women.org/Unfinished.htm)
"1. The Japanese Imperial Army and Navy initiated the setting up of a vast network of comfort stations for the exclusive use and "enjoyment" of the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy, before and during the Second World War. The Japanese military planned and executed the provision of comfort facilities to its troops, wherever they were located. Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese, Filipino, Malaysian, Indonesian and Dutch women and girls were put into these comfort stations and sexual services were extracted from them under duress.

2. The taking of these women, even where it was done initially by private persons, was soon handled by the Japanese military itself. It appointed recruitment agents who were given special permits for travel to and from military establishments. These recruiters were actively assisted by the military (kempeitai) and local police, to ensure that the girls and women "volunteered". It is indisputable that these women were forced, deceived, coerced and abducted to provide sexual services to the Japanese military."

Can you show the original article of Japanese government which says Comfort Stations were rape camps?
Why should the Japanese government have to write this?

I said "Any historians now do not say "the military directly coerced them"
And you said "Liar!?" and showed the link.
From the link I found him.So I said he is not a historian (I did not lie).
From the link you'd have also found a number of Japanese historians. If you have problems with seeing things you don't like it's not my fault.

Korean were technically Japanese though.
So, when Koreans coerced women in the name of the Japanese military into Japanese brothels the Japanese military was responsible either way. Good point.

I mentioned how this issue broke up and the begining was fabrication.
And no real evidence has been found.
Crap! You mean no evidence you like has been found.

You said history is the reason why you think there was systematic coercion.
so I wanted to know what is history.
History is: the fact that there was a system under Japanese control to force women into sexual slavery.

There are no need to write about individual crimes in the textbooks.
Individual crimes are in history books.
The Japanese sex slave system was so widespread that it can't be called an individual crime, anyway. The number of up to 200,000 victims of the comfort women system bears witness to that.

There is a big difference between individual crimes and systematic crimes of the military or authorities.
Both can go hand in hand.

Would you say the German military forced them to provide sex?
Actually, yes, the German military in WWII did so.

[urecco]

Coomaraswamy report to the UN: (http://www.comfort-women.org/coomaras.htm)
"the consistency of the accounts of women from quite different parts of South-East Asia of the manner in which they were recruited and the clear involvement of the military and Government at different levels is indisputable.
[...]
The first comfort stations under direct Japanese control were those in Shanghai in 1932, and there is first-hand evidence of official involvement in their establishment. One of the commanders of the Shanghai campaign, Lieutenant―General Okamura Yasuji, confessed in his memoirs to have been the original proponent of comfort stations for the military."

The biggest issue is the way of recruitments.
]Coomaraswamy report to the UN: (http://www.comfort-women.org/coomaras.htm) mentions.
Nearly all evidence concerning the recruitment of "comfort women" comes from the oral testimony of the victims themselves.
Testimonies are not enough to prove anything.If they were,UFOs and Nessie would be proven.
People need to examine the testimonies.
About recruitments,Coomoraswamy just picked up these theree testimonies.

about no.54,she said
"I was taken to the police station in a truck, where I was raped by several policemen. "
In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean.
I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese.
And she said.
"There were around400 other Korean young girls with me and we had to serve over 5,000 Japanese soldiers as sex slaves everyday - up to 40 men per day "
Firstly,there should be rumour about missing 400 young girls.
It must be impossible to kidnapped 400 girls without any witnesses.
Are there any dairies, newspapers or whatever mentioning missing girls?
Secondly,the fact that 400 girls were raped by 40 soldiers a day means that about 5,000 soldiers raped girls 3 times a day.It would be guite tough.
Thirdly,if that comfort station was supervised by agent, military could not pay the money for about 16,000 rapes a day,so it should be supervised directly the military.However,there were no comfort station supervised directly by the military in North Korea (if I am wrong,please let me know)
"One Korean girl caught a venereal disease from being raped so often and, as a result, over 50 Japanese soldiers were infected. In order to stop the disease from spreading and to 'sterilize' the Korean girl, they stuck a hot iron bar in her private parts. "
One Korean girl caught a veneral disease from being raped thus the one of guys who raped her had caught a venereal disease before that.On average,soldiers raped 3 times a day,girls were raped 40 times a day.It must have been speread widely.
If there were 50 soldiers infected,why was only one girls tortured like that?
And the military order soldiers to use condoms in order to prevent venereal diseases for keeping their strength.
"I think over half of the girls who were at the garrison barracks were killed. Twice I tried to run away, but both times we were caught after a few days. "
Even though she tried to run away twice,she survived.What did the half of the girls who were killed do?

about No.55
there are several questions.
Who drived the Japanese truck? Japanese agent? Korean agent? or soider?
When she realised there were not factory,what did she ask about it?
Did she understand Japanese?
Who managed the Comfort Places.
"She tried to resist the men and bit one of them in his arm. She was then taken to the courtyard and in front of all of us, her head was cut of f with a sword and her body was cut into small piece.. "
This thing never happened if agents managed the Comfort Place,because she could earn much money and there was no reason to miss it.
Even it was managed by the military,it was big loss to kill comfort women.
Why were "all of us" at the courtyard? Many soldiers were queuing.
How did she know the girl had bitten?
Of course there is a possiblity that the soldier was high rank and gathered everyone and explained what she had done and killed her as a kind of show trial.But if so,she would say so.
To cut into small pieces...By sward?

No.56
she was 73 years old in 1995 when the report published.
She went to work the Japanese military factory,when she was 17 (in 1939)
She worked there for 3 years (untill 1942)
She was raped and she forced to be Comfort Women.
She worked as Comfort Women for 5 years (untill 1947)
cf. Japan lost in 1945.

You guys might think "this revisionist is too captious."
However if you want to critisize something without real evidence,there must be a massive amount of oral testimonies without any incoherances and circumstantial evidence.

For some people,the testimonies of no.54,55 might be very reliable,however no.56 is definately crap.And also in the meaning of examination, Coomoraswamy report is crap.

Circumstance evidence.

Korean historians argue there were 200,000 Korean comfort women.
And chinese historians argue there were 200,000 Chinese comfort women.
If so,at least there were 400,000 comfort women.
And people say they were raped 10 to 40 times a day.
At least 95% of Comfort stations were managed by private agents.
A sex cost at least 1.5yen.The salary of low rank soldiers was 12 yen per month.
The total number of Japanese military was about 4 million.
You can easily know 400,000 comfort women is a myth.

There was no movement against comfort women in Korea during the war.
Korean gov't never mentioned about comfort women in the treaty of 1965 even though both Japan and Korea promised to renounced every right (including individuals')to claim about the fact in Japanese ruled era.

China never claimed about Comfort women when they executed the war criminals.

Only one comfort station was claimed by Holland.
Okada was executed for it.
However,Japan had banned forcible recruitments and Holland never claimed about the responsiblity of Japan.

U.S. official report for Comfort Women in 1944.
http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html

After the campaign of Asahi Shinbun,this issue broked up.
It is false accusation.

[bossel]

The biggest issue is the way of recruitments.
That's just you, as I said.
The issue is responsibility for the whole sex slave system.

Testimonies are not enough to prove anything.
That depends on the testimonies.

About recruitments,Coomoraswamy just picked up these theree testimonies.
Used these 3 as examples.

In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean.
Hmm, didn't you say these Koreans were technically Japanese? What's more, the police worked for the Japanese, hence Japanese responsibility.

If you have problems with parts of these testimonies or with the report in general, contact the rapporteur or raise a formal complaint & then let us know the reaction.

oral testimonies without any incoherances
Actually, it would be quite surprising if there were no incoherences in witness accounts.

[Shibuyaexpat]

urecco,
I'm still trying understand your argument through that catalog of what you deem as facts. Are you arguing that comfort women never existed or are you stating that because the numbers don't quite add up that their existence is overblown or exaggerated?

Pardon me if i sound dismissive of your post, but it's similar to other posts I've seen (not from you) related to the Nanjing Massacre--in that, through the act of tallying up facts and figures you hope to dismiss the campaigns of the Japanese Imperial Army in Asia. As I've stated in other posts, the fact is that the Japanese Army, unlike the German one, did not keep meticulous records. A lot of what we know now that happened during the European campaign stems from the Nazi's own records. Therefore, we are in a situation where verbal testimony (where and when available) is the only means of extrapolating the past events. Are those perfect? Are they 100% accurate? Do they fit within your criteria of "valid" information? No. But they are an account of people who were invaded by another country.

To your comment: "In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean. I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese." I not only find this insulting, but rather inane on your part. That's the equivalent of laying sole blame on the Jewish prisoners who helped the Nazis in the concentration camps for the deaths of other Jews who weren't complying. Allow me to interpret your argument: Japan invaded Korea. Koreans willfully, gladly and eagerly join the Japanese police force. Koreans, with no fear of their lives or the lives of their families, willing rape women of their own nationality. Japanese Army quietly sat by, disgusted with Koreans' low morality. Tell you what, let me put a gun to your head or the heads of your family, and then demand that you rape your mother/sister/aunt. And then lay the blame on you for actually doing it. A bit severe, but I hope you understand my point on this.

And finally, I don't see the relevance of the U.S. official report for Comfort Women in 1944, especially since the case of comfort women became more documented in the decades to follow. Why were the cases brought forth so late? Well, there's this little thing in Korea called a social stigma, see. A woman's virginity (and therefore, moral standing) is paramount to her future life as wife, mother, etc. To be gang-raped is not something a woman openly discusses with a lot of people.

By your comments and those of other revisionists on the issue of comfort-women, I would have to assume that a) women in Japan often report cases of rape, forced sex, and sex slavery, as clearly from your comments, you can't understand why they would wait so long to tell their story; or b) rape, forced sex and sex slavery never happens in Japan, and that all those reported cases here are just in fact, more fabrications of prostitues.

[A.A. Lee]

There is no doubt in my mind that the Japanese commited atrocities in Asia. And they were systematic crimes of the military. Sure they didn't record a lot of the things they did like the Germans did, but there are stories, zillions of them, too many to be denied, and the unrelenting hatred of many older generations of Chinese and East Asians towards the Japanese. Japan can deny such war crimes all they want, but the world knows. There may be no hard evidence for forced prostitution during WWII, but it's believable considering all of the other things that happened.

I don't think there's any way one can compensate the victims of war crimes. I mean if Germany was to pay the survivors of Holocaust money for their pain and suffering, how much would be enough? No amount of money could ever make up for it. All people can do now is acknowledge the error of our ways and write laws against these crimes. I don't think the Japanese of today should have to pay for their fathers errors, but they should at least admit that these events happened. It angers me when someone tries to dismiss them with whatever reasoning. The testimony of the people count.

[urecco]

That's just you, as I said.
The issue is responsibility for the whole sex slave system.

If they wished to become a prostitute (or there was no way but to become),
they were not slaves no matter what the working condition was.
If they forced to provide sex, they were slaves.

In that meaning,the way of living or salary was not as important as how they were recruited.

Would you say it is okay to force women provide sex if they get paid more than adequate?


Used these 3 as examples.

I do not know how many people did she asked.
If she asked just 3 people, she really biased for the victims(self-stalyed) or was naive.
If she asked hundreds or thousands people and choose the three, her dogma or foolishness was extraordinary.

This is the quality of authorized report.
People never doubt about reliable of the testimonies.


Hmm, didn't you say these Koreans were technically Japanese? What's more, the police worked for the Japanese, hence Japanese responsibility.

I was not mentioning about who has the responisbility.
I mean there must have been Korean policemen and some of them must have leaked the information about kidnapping and some campaigns should have happened.


If you have problems with parts of these testimonies or with the report in general, contact the rapporteur or raise a formal complaint & then let us know the reaction.

Japan gave massive reports against it, however China,Korea and maybe Singapore blamed Japan a lot.
As you know,Japan has been required eternal remorse and apology.
So caring the emotion of the people in East Asia,Japan stopped arguing.
Actually,it was Japan's fault, I agree.


Actually, it would be quite surprising if there were no incoherences in witness accounts.

Actually it is quite surprising that people believe that testimony which says she worked after the war as Comfort Women.

[urecco]

urecco,
I'm still trying understand your argument through that catalog of what you deem as facts. Are you arguing that comfort women never existed or are you stating that because the numbers don't quite add up that their existence is overblown or exaggerated?
"Comfort women" is another way of saying "prosititutes".
There were prosititutes. In that meaning,there were comfort women.
To put brothels near military establishments was common at that time.
The number of prosititutes have nothing to do with war crimes or abusing human rights.

The reason why I mention about the number is to let people know the quality of Korean (Chinese) official statement.

But they are an account of people who were invaded by another country.
It is very naive to think that victims never lie.


To your comment: "In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean. I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese." I not only find this insulting, but rather inane on your part.That's the equivalent of laying sole blame on the Jewish prisoners who helped the Nazis in the concentration camps for the deaths of other Jews who weren't complying.
I doubt the whole testimony. I have no intention to insult Korean policemen.

BTW,you really bias for Korean.
You seem to think Korean were always right and good and Japanese were alway wrong and evil.
Your rhetoric is too simplified.

And finally, I don't see the relevance of the U.S. official report for Comfort Women in 1944, especially since the case of comfort women became more documented in the decades to follow. Why were the cases brought forth so late? Well, there's this little thing in Korea called a social stigma, see. A woman's virginity (and therefore, moral standing) is paramount to her future life as wife, mother, etc. To be gang-raped is not something a woman openly discusses with a lot of people.
I do not know any documents mention about forcible recruitments or terrible living condition of Comfort Women before Yoshida testimony(1983).
Why were the cases brought forth so late?
There is a big chance that they just tell lies according the newspapers or what campaingers say based on Yoshida testimony(fabrication).
Even if the victims had never discussed comfort women by themselves,there would have been witnesses, families who could not shut the mouth,policemen,ex-soldiers and politicions who knew about comfort women.
If there had been that big issue,it would have been revealed decades ago.

What I want people to know are.
1 Evidence
There was involvement of Japanese military(for preventing forcible recruitment)
There were the rules for hygiene, hours of service, contraception, payment of women and prohibitions of alcohol and weapons.
There was an US officla report about the comfort station managed well.

Japan at least tried to supervise Comfort Station well and at least one Comfort Station was managaed well.

2 Circumstance evidence
No campaingn agaist comfort women in Korea during WWII.
No mention in Tokyo Trial.
No mention in any other trials besides the one(individual crime) claimed by Holland
No mention in the treaty in 1965 between Korea and Japan.
(Both country and their people renounced right to claim any act in colonel era)
UN report says
"Nearly all evidence concerning the recruitment of "comfort women" comes from the oral testimony of the victims themselves. "

In 1983 Yoshida's fabricated "non-fiction" novel published.(Yoshida said he forced many korean to provide sex for Japanese military)
Asahi newspaper campaigned about Comfort Women widely.
Korean newspapers follewed.
Japanese association searched victims.
(In some country they found 20,000 self-styled comfort women because of misunderstanding that victims cound get 2 million yen.There are people who lie because of money.)
Many abused ex-comfort women came to claim.

Even Kum Ju Hwang ,who said she had worked as comfort women for 5 years since 1942 (cf. Japan lost in 1945),and Jeong Seo-wun,who said she had been taken to Indoneasia in 1937 or 1938 and worked as Comfort women for 7 years (Indonesia was ruled by Holland until 1942),have been supported by many people.
No one blame ex-comfort women who say something impossible besides Japanese right-wingers.It encourages people to tell a lie.

The testimonies given after Yoshida's confession are not enough to prove the overview of comfort women.
This issue was allegedly well-known because of polictial power of Korea and China, Japanese Kowtowing deplomatic policy and propaganda of Asahi newspaper and tie-up newspapers all over the world.

[bossel]

If they wished to become a prostitute (or there was no way but to become),
they were not slaves no matter what the working condition was.
Wrong.

In that meaning,the way of living or salary was not as important as how they were recruited.
Wrong again.

Would you say it is okay to force women provide sex if they get paid more than adequate?
Of course it's not OK. That's idiotic.


I do not know how many people did she asked.
Then you obviously didn't read the report well enough.

If she asked hundreds or thousands people and choose the three, her dogma or foolishness was extraordinary.
More probably yours is.

I was not mentioning about who has the responisbility.
I know. That's your problem: ignorance/denial of responsibility.

I mean there must have been Korean policemen and some of them must have leaked the information about kidnapping and some campaigns should have happened.
Nope, you said: "I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese."

Japan gave massive reports against it
Sources?

The reason why I mention about the number is to let people know the quality of Korean (Chinese) official statement.
The quality of your statements does match the quality of CCP statements.
A total of 4m Japanese soldiers is a pretty low estimate. The estimates I remember range from 5.5 to 9.x million.


Your rhetoric is too simplified.
Look, who's talking. I sometimes wonder if all fundamentalists attended the same rhetoric schools. Whether religious, ideological or nationalist, they all use the same crappy discussion tactics.

If there had been that big issue,it would have been revealed decades ago.
Not necessarily.

There was involvement of Japanese military(for preventing forcible recruitment)
Speaking of too simplified rhetoric. This is one nice exemplifying attempt of twisting words: Involvement, yes, but only on the side of law & order. Very funny!

There was an US officla report about the comfort station managed well.
You don't mean by any chance the same report you quoted earlier, largely relying on testimonies of comfort women? How can you trust this report if you don't believe in their testimonies?


Japan at least tried to supervise Comfort Station well and at least one Comfort Station was managaed well.
One station was managed well? Even if that were true, what difference would it make?

In 1983 Yoshida's fabricated "non-fiction" novel published.
Liar. It's not a novel.


The testimonies given after Yoshida's confession are not enough to prove the overview of comfort women.
There are not only testimonies.
You really start getting on my nerves with your revisionist crap. You're becoming a little nuisance.
There is enough evidence to show that Japan set up a sex slave system. The question of overall responsibility is clear, even if there are minor inconsistencies in some points.

[urecco]

Wrong.
Wrong again.
Please explain how they are wrong.

Then you obviously didn't read the report well enough.

Do I need to read everything?
She imply almost no evidence besides testimonies.
And at least one testimonies is totally crap.
It proves that she never examined the reliablity of testimonies and concluded Japan did war crimes.


I know. That's your problem: ignorance/denial of responsibility.

Nope, you said: "I wonder if Korean raped her as well as Japanese."

What are you on about?
It is obvious I doubt the reliablity of testimonies.
I do not mean Korean raped thus Korean is bad or anything.
What I wanted to say is "Would Korean rape Korean girl kidnapped by Japanese? I guess not.
Then what were they doing?
The testimony was quite strange."
I should have written "I wonder what Korean were doing at that time."

Sources?

It is bit hard to find in English.
Would you change anything after showing the sources?
If not,I don't search it.

The quality of your statements does match the quality of CCP statements.
A total of 4m Japanese soldiers is a pretty low estimate. The estimates I remember range from 5.5 to 9.x million.

Even if 10 million soldiers were there,there are no difference.
Soldier could not pay the fee once three days.
cf,I use the lowest estimate of 10 rapes a day.


Not necessarily.

But it is enough odd to say this issue is doubtful.
Please give me the reason why all victims,families,policemen,pliticians and ex-soldiers had remain silent before Yoshida comfession was well-known.

Speaking of too simplified rhetoric. This is one nice exemplifying attempt of twisting words: Involvement, yes, but only on the side of law & order. Very funny!

Involvement is really misleading word used by Asahi newspaper.
But polician admitted the involvement,even though it is not something supposed to be called involvement.
For example,in any countries,there is a law for preventing murder.
Asahi's rhetoric is like "As long as the gov't give the law,there is governmental involvement with murder."

You don't mean by any chance the same report you quoted earlier, largely relying on testimonies of comfort women? How can you trust this report if you don't believe in their testimonies?

The testimonies were given after the fabricated Yoshida's confession.
US report was written during the war by hostile people,there were no need to justify or glorify Japanese Comfort Station.

Liar. It's not a novel.

In any case,it is fabrication,is it a big deal whether to say confession or non-fiction novel.

There are not only testimonies.

Give me please!

[Shibuyaexpat]

"Comfort women" is another way of saying "prosititutes".
There were prosititutes. In that meaning,there were comfort women.
To put brothels near military establishments was common at that time.
The number of prosititutes have nothing to do with war crimes or abusing human rights. Are you saying that ALL comfort women were prostitutes? Just how many prostitutes do you think were in Korea? I'm not discounting that there were SOME (if not FEW) prostitutes who called themselves "comfort women," but you seem to be saying that they were all prostitutes, and therefore the Japanese Army should be absolved of any wrong-doing.

The reason why I mention about the number is to let people know the quality of Korean (Chinese) official statement. As I mentioned before, the "quality" of these official statements has always been inherently flawed because UNDER JAPANESE OCCUPATION, who much real data could anyone gather? Think about that. Your country is under the rule of another country. How much leeway is there for subjugated citizens to find information on the full-scope of the invading nation's campaigns?!! THINK!
It is very naive to think that victims never lie. I don't even know where to start with this one. They are VICTIMS!! Meaning that there are victimizers! YES?!!! That means that the victimizers (Japanese Army) are responsible for the acts committed against the VICTIMS?! NO??!! In this situation, who stands to gain more from lying? The victims who are trying to explain what happened or the victimizers who are trying to escape punishment?!!!
I doubt the whole testimony. I have no intention to insult Korean policemen. No, your purpose is clear. It's to insult ALL Koreans!
BTW,you really bias for Korean.
You seem to think Korean were always right and good and Japanese were alway wrong and evil.
Your rhetoric is too simplified. Did they teach you that deflection tecnique at the Japanese Imperial Debate club? My "bias" is for accurate information. Have I ever stated that Koreans are always right? In fact, if you knew my family's history, you would know that we are VERY ANTI-KOREAN, even though, we are from Korea. I have an American citizenship because of the dictatorship of Park Chunghee. I would be very careful where you tread...
I do not know any documents mention about forcible recruitments or terrible living condition of Comfort Women before Yoshida testimony(1983).
Why were the cases brought forth so late?
There is a big chance that they just tell lies according the newspapers or what campaingers say based on Yoshida testimony(fabrication).
Even if the victims had never discussed comfort women by themselves,there would have been witnesses, families who could not shut the mouth,policemen,ex-soldiers and politicions who knew about comfort women.
If there had been that big issue,it would have been revealed decades ago. Korea was climbing out from the rubble of the Japanese occupation and of WW2, when BAM!, the Korean conflict happens. Afterwhich, a dictatorship is in place and then only into the mid- to late-eighties, does the country enter into the infancy of a democracy (some may argue earlier or later depending upon the slant). Tell me, which which timeframe do you see a condition ideal for open discussion and discovery of what happened?

What I don't understand is that why do you insist that everyone outside of Japan is lying on the subject of comfort women?

I was going to argue each of your points, but that's a futile attempt at trying to assert my point of view. Clearly, there is no amount of evidence will ever persuade you otherwise. Maybe it is you that is biased, as clearly, "You seem to think [Japanese] were always right and good and [EVERYONE ELSE]were alway wrong and evil."

I'm through.

[urecco]

Are you saying that ALL comfort women were prostitutes? Just how many prostitutes do you think were in Korea? I'm not discounting that there were SOME (if not FEW) prostitutes who called themselves "comfort women," but you seem to be saying that they were all prostitutes, and therefore the Japanese Army should be absolved of any wrong-doing.

I explained the system of comfort women.
Agents recruit women.The women provide sex.
The cliants (Japanese soldiers) pay the fee.
It is prosititution.

If Japan order to agents to forced women to provide sex,it is bad.
But what is bad is not the system of Comfort Women but the order of forcible recruitments.

Thus,I say the biggest problem is whether Japan ordered forcible recruitements.
As I mentioned before, the "quality" of these official statements has always been inherently flawed because UNDER JAPANESE OCCUPATION, who much real data could anyone gather?
When they have no real date,they should say that they do not know the number.
It cannot be the excuse of incredibly exaggerated number.
No, your purpose is clear. It's to insult ALL Koreans!
Unless I believe that testimony is true, I do not mean Korean policemen raped kidnapped Korean girls.
Do you think I believe that testimoy is true?
Is it clear?
Clearly not.
Did they teach you that deflection tecnique at the Japanese Imperial Debate club? My "bias" is for accurate information. Have I ever stated that Koreans are always right? In fact, if you knew my family's history, you would know that we are VERY ANTI-KOREAN, even though, we are from Korea. I have an American citizenship because of the dictatorship of Park Chunghee. I would be very careful where you tread...
Do you bias for accurate information?
But you said "testimonies are not accurate, and Korean offcial statements are flawed." and you support them.
You bias for inaccurate information or Korea.
You mean you are Korean American. right?
Why do you show Japanese Flag?
Korea was climbing out from the rubble of the Japanese occupation and of WW2, when BAM!, the Korean conflict happens. Afterwhich, a dictatorship is in place and then only into the mid- to late-eighties, does the country enter into the infancy of a democracy (some may argue earlier or later depending upon the slant). Tell me, which which timeframe do you see a condition ideal for open discussion and discovery of what happened?
Even comfort women in North Korea could discuss through governmental support.
As long as their opinon get on well with dictator,they can speak anything.
Anti-Japanese has been continuous policy after the world war II.
In fact the people who were killed and could not speak were pro-Japanese citizens.
Even now,the govenment is trying to ban people from showing any beneficial points of Japanese Colonization.
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/03/20/20050320000019.html
sorry I cant find English version.But I believe you can read Japanese.

[Shibuyaexpat]

If Japan order to agents to forced women to provide sex,it is bad.
But what is bad is not the system of Comfort Women but the order of forcible recruitments.
Thus,I say the biggest problem is whether Japan ordered forcible recruitements. I think this is where we differ. You still seem to believe that the matter of “forcible recruitements” is a matter up for debate, as if there is still some question on whether or not this actually happened.
When they have no real date,they should say that they do not know the number.
It cannot be the excuse of incredibly exaggerated number. Like many elements of research, the numbers are based on the most accurate information available, and then an estimate is provided. I’ll reiterate (for the last time) my previous point: It doesn’t matter if there was one, 100, 100,000 or 1,000,000 comfort women. The fact remains that the Japanese Imperial Army forcibly raped women. Will you deny this? And don’t go asking me for data on if the rapes actually happened if you’re not going to believe the testimony of the victims. You seem to believe that the Japanese army (or any other rapist) would keep a catalog diary of all its victims.

Unless I believe that testimony is true, I do not mean Korean policemen raped kidnapped Korean girls.
Do you think I believe that testimoy is true?
Is it clear?
Clearly not.
Tell you what. I’ll gather 15 men and force them to gang-rape you repeatedly. Let’s see how “accurate” your testimony is.
Do you bias for accurate information?
But you said "testimonies are not accurate, and Korean offcial statements are flawed." and you support them.
You bias for inaccurate information or Korea. I said:
Therefore, we are in a situation where verbal testimony (where and when available) is the only means of extrapolating the past events. Are those perfect? Are they 100% accurate? Do they fit within your criteria of "valid" information? No. But they are an account of people who were invaded by another country. Notice I used “perfect,” “100% accurate.” Read carefully, my friend, because the words are there for a reason. NO INFORMATION CAN 100% accurate. Are you 100% accurate in all of your memories and recollections??!! I’m not supporting FLAWED data. I’m supporting the best AVAILABLE DATA!!!
You mean you are Korean American. right? No, I mean I’m American of Korean descent. Big difference.
Why do you show Japanese Flag? Because the way that this forum is set up, the flag is an indicator of where you currently live. I currently live in Tokyo (hence SHIBUYAEXPAT handle).
Even comfort women in North Korea could discuss through governmental support.
As long as their opinon get on well with dictator,they can speak anything.
Anti-Japanese has been continuous policy after the world war II.
In fact the people who were killed and could not speak were pro-Japanese citizens. Where are you getting this information that pro-Japanese citizens were killed? And if they were, could it be because they were committing crimes against their own people? Did that ever occur to you?
Even now,the govenment is trying to ban people from showing any beneficial points of Japanese Colonization.
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/dat...0320000019.html
sorry I cant find English version.But I believe you can read Japanese.
HA!HA!HA! “Beneficial points of Japanese Colonization?” I dare you go to any country outside Japan and pose this topic. If there were any benefits, the overall atrocities committed, I think, would outweigh all the benefits. Your comment is akin to a murder defending his action by saying that the victim doesn’t have to worry about paying taxes anymore.

[bossel]

Please explain how they are wrong.
Not only the beginning is important, but also the end & the in-between.

Let's see, a totally unrelated, hypothetical & completely unrealistic example:
I hire you as an office worker for a salary of 1800 per month. After you signed your contract, I don't pay you, don't let you leave my premises, I let you only clean the dustbins & the sewers, smack you over the head every time I see you, & every other day I put a stick up your arse. After 5 years of that, I'll give you a pay-check over 1800 Turkish Lira, give you a hand-shake & a smile. You can return home (or better yet: I simply kill you, since this would save me some money & relieve me of some effort).
I suppose, since I hired you properly I did everything right?

Do I need to read everything?
Of course not. You only need to read those points which fit into your narrow mindset. :okashii:

The testimony was quite strange.
Your related questions are stranger.

Would you change anything after showing the sources?
That depends on the sources.

Even if 10 million soldiers were there,there are no difference.
Soldier could not pay the fee once three days.
cf,I use the lowest estimate of 10 rapes a day.
Whose estimate is that? Me seems, your calculation is slightly over-simplified, anyway.

Please give me the reason why all victims,families,policemen,pliticians and ex-soldiers had remain silent before Yoshida comfession was well-known.
See Shibuyexpat.

The testimonies were given after the fabricated Yoshida's confession. US report was written during the war by hostile people,there were no need to justify or glorify Japanese Comfort Station.
Er..., have you read the same report as was linked before? Where in there does anybody "justify or glorify Japanese Comfort Station"?

In any case,it is fabrication,is it a big deal whether to say confession or non-fiction novel.
A big deal? No, but it very clearly shows your way of twisting & turning the truth until it fits your perspective.
It's memoires, if you know what that means. You believe it's a fabrication.

Give me please!
Read the UNHCHR report!

[urecco]

I think this is where we differ. You still seem to believe that the matter of “forcible recruitements” is a matter up for debate, as if there is still some question on whether or not this actually happened.
There is no proof besides testimonies.
Nobody besides Dutch gov't mentioned Japanese forcible recruitments for 40 years despite the existance of treaties and war crime tributals.
And every testimony came to be given after fabricated Yoshida testimony.
That's enough to doubt the existance of forcible recruitments.

BTW,there is one comfort women who claimed with evidence.
Her name is 文玉珠 and she showed a banknote and advenced a claim for the savings of 23,145 yen (worth 50 to 100 million yen now) which she could not have withdrawn.
cf.she had been sold by parents to an agent.
Like many elements of research, the numbers are based on the most accurate information available, and then an estimate is provided. I’ll reiterate (for the last time) my previous point: It doesn’t matter if there was one, 100, 100,000 or 1,000,000 comfort women. The fact remains that the Japanese Imperial Army forcibly raped women. Will you deny this? And don’t go asking me for data on if the rapes actually happened if you’re not going to believe the testimony of the victims. You seem to believe that the Japanese army (or any other rapist) would keep a catalog diary of all its victims.
What is the source of the estimated number?
Even if it did not the matter if there was one or 1,000,000, it does not justify the exaggeration.
And also the number of total comfort women is important.
If there were 200,000 comfort women,there was little chance that agents recruited them properly,whilst if there were 100 comfort women, there were no need to force them as long as the salary was fair.
According Japanese historian, the total number of Korean comfort women were about 4,000.

Notice I used “perfect,” “100% accurate.” Read carefully, my friend, because the words are there for a reason. NO INFORMATION CAN 100% accurate. Are you 100% accurate in all of your memories and recollections??!! I’m not supporting FLAWED data. I’m supporting the best AVAILABLE DATA!!!
There are documents which show Japan tried to prevent forcible recruitment and the rule for managing brothel properly.
And report of properly managed brothel.
They are the best available date.

Testimonies wihtout examination do not prove anything.
No, I mean I’m American of Korean descent. Big difference.
Because the way that this forum is set up, the flag is an indicator of where you currently live. I currently live in Tokyo (hence SHIBUYAEXPAT handle).
Sorry,i misunderstood that.
Where are you getting this information that pro-Japanese citizens were killed? And if they were, could it be because they were committing crimes against their own people? Did that ever occur to you?
In 李承晩　era, to admire Japanese Colonization or to critisize Lee Chosen era were crimes.Some must have been killed.
But the point is even under the dictatorship they could say many things as long as they were agaist Japan.

HA!HA!HA! “Beneficial points of Japanese Colonization?” I dare you go to any country outside Japan and pose this topic. If there were any benefits, the overall atrocities committed, I think, would outweigh all the benefits. Your comment is akin to a murder defending his action by saying that the victim doesn’t have to worry about paying taxes anymore.
What I want to say is that Korean cannot say beneficial points of Japanese Colonization.It does not matter whether the benefits outweigh the loss.
The benefits were:
Japan abolished brutal hierarchy in Korea.
(Every Korean says they are descendant of Yangban,which was high class,so they do not care when and why it was abolished)
Japan systemized Korean alphabets (hangle),which was regarded as alphabets for idiots by Yangban.The first dictionary of Korean were published during the Japanese Colonial era.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200402/200402260026.html
Much was invested in schools, public health systems, railways, hydroelectric projects, and the like.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0295970650/ref=dp_nav_1/002-7083977-6540850?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

It is absurd to ban people especially historians from mentioning what gov't want to hide.

[Shibuyaexpat]

There is no proof besides testimonies.
Hey DJ, spin another record. This song’s getting old. Nobody besides Dutch gov't mentioned Japanese forcible recruitments for 40 years despite the existance of treaties and war crime tributals.
And every testimony came to be given after fabricated Yoshida testimony.
That's enough to doubt the existance of forcible recruitments. Why would the Dutch have any incentive to lie about this? If the Korean, U.S., Chinese, and/or Russian gov’ts mentioned this, I’m sure that you would be shouting conspiracy.
BTW,there is one comfort women who claimed with evidence.
Her name is 文玉珠 and she showed a banknote and advenced a claim for the savings of 23,145 yen (worth 50 to 100 million yen now) which she could not have withdrawn.
cf.she had been sold by parents to an agent. Huh? I’m still trying to figure out the relevance of this comment. What is the source of the estimated number?
Even if it did not the matter if there was one or 1,000,000, it does not justify the exaggeration.
And also the number of total comfort women is important.
If there were 200,000 comfort women,there was little chance that agents recruited them properly,whilst if there were 100 comfort women, there were no need to force them as long as the salary was fair.
According Japanese historian, the total number of Korean comfort women were about 4,000. Listen, this is getting us no where. You seem to believe that comfort women were all just professional prostitutes and that the Japanese government did its very best to ensure that these women were fairly-treated and relatively well-cared for. Moreover, Japanese soldiers were kindly, gentlemanly patrons of brothels where these women worked and spent (frugally) their monthly stipends to enjoy a little R&R from the hardships of war. No number I provide will ever dissuade you of this. There are documents which show Japan tried to prevent forcible recruitment and the rule for managing brothel properly.
And report of properly managed brothel.
They are the best available date. Who are the authors of these documents? Japanese? Koreans? Chinese? Americans? And what were their motivations in authoring such documents? You seem to believe that documents are more official than statements from victims, and what I’m arguing is that documents—no matter how official—are also self-serving interests.
Testimonies wihtout examination do not prove anything. Documents with bias also do not prove anything.

In your assertion that Korea benefited from Japanese colonization, you listed several books. Well, here are some counterpoints:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520213610/ref=sid_av_dp/102-5846168-4144155?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801438543/ref=pd_sim_b_5/102-5846168-4144155?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231125399/ref=pd_sim_b_3/102-5846168-4144155?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231120311/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-5846168-4144155?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962771309/ref=sid_av_dp/102-5846168-4144155?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
(see how easy it is to cherry-pick references?)
Japan abolished brutal hierarchy in Korea. And Japan’s hierarchy system is less-“brutal” in what way? Japan didn’t “abolish the brutal Korean hierarchy” for altruistic reasons. By destroying that system, it undermines social stability which can lead to uprisings against the invaders.
Japan systemized Korean alphabets (hangle),which was regarded as alphabets for idiots by Yangban. From the UCLA Language Materials Project: http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=76.

“The modern effort to establish Hangul as the writing system of the Korean language was ended in 1910 by Japan, which formally annexed the peninsula as a colony of its empire. During the colonial occupation, Japanese was the official language of Korea; Korean was suppressed by laws forbidding its use. Japanese became the language of instruction in the schools and by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum. In 1940, Koreans were forced to change their family names and use Japanese surnames instead.”
The first dictionary of Korean were published during the Japanese Colonial era. http://english.chosun.com/w21data/h...0402260026.html If you had carefully read the article, you would see that this dictionary is the THIRD EDITION of that dictionary. As we do not know the publishing date of the FIRST EDITION, I would hold off patting that Nationalistic shoulder. Additionally, the fact that the third edition was published during the occupation period bears no insight as to whether or not the Japanese government approved of and supported its publication. This would not be the first time text was published in opposition to the occupying regime.
Much was invested in schools, public health systems, railways, hydroelectric projects, and the like.
Railways: From http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr15/f22_nak.html
“During the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese military had built supply railway lines through Korea, which permitted strengthened international links with Japan's domestic lines at the War's end.”
I’m not going to bother responding to other ones because hopefully, you get the idea.

[sabro]

Shubayaexpat-
Domo Arigato Gozaimasu. You have done such an excellent job refuting the kind of right wing revisionist crap that makes my skin crawl. Again thank you.

[Shibuyaexpat]

Sabro, thanks for your words. Knowing our good friend, we can expect more along the lines of:
-"testimonies don't mean/prove anything"
-"There are legitimate, hard facts-driven documents from Japanese government that say that Japanese occupation of Asian countries was done benevolently."
-"Countries/documents/testimonies/accounts/evidences contrary to above point are lying and try to mar the beauty of Japanese history!"

And my personal favorite: "My opinions are correct because I've cherry-picked and narrowly interpreted the evidence that support them."

[sabro]

I think he should blame the fascists and militarists for keeping such good records during world war ii. Without their hard work documenting their own attrocities, all we would have are those millions of witnesses they left alive.

[urecco]

Hey DJ, spin another record. This song’s getting old.
Do you agree there is no proof besides testimonies?
Yes or NO. please answer it.
Why would the Dutch have any incentive to lie about this? If the Korean, U.S., Chinese, and/or Russian gov’ts mentioned this, I’m sure that you would be shouting conspiracy.
I never say the Duch lied.
Dutch mention Japanese soldier forced dutch women to work in brothel.
And he was executed.
It is personal war crime.Japan never allow soldiers to do so.

The fact is Korean had never claimed about comfort women until Yoshida testimony became famous.
Who are the authors of these documents? Japanese? Koreans? Chinese? Americans? And what were their motivations in authoring such documents? You seem to believe that documents are more official than statements from victims, and what I’m arguing is that documents—no matter how official—are also self-serving interests.
Documents with bias also do not prove anything.
documents with bias do not prove anything and testimonies without examination do not prove anything.
When what prove forcible recruitments of comfort women?
And Japan’s hierarchy system is less-“brutal” in what way? Japan didn’t “abolish the brutal Korean hierarchy” for altruistic reasons. By destroying that system, it undermines social stability which can lead to uprisings against the invaders.
Japan's hierarchy? What do you mean?
Korean could become politions and in fact there were Korean politicians.
There was no official hierarchy between Korean and Japanese.
Why don't you think abolish of slavery is a benefit?

From the UCLA Language Materials Project: http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/Profile.aspx?LangID=76.

“The modern effort to establish Hangul as the writing system of the Korean language was ended in 1910 by Japan, which formally annexed the peninsula as a colony of its empire. During the colonial occupation, Japanese was the official language of Korea; Korean was suppressed by laws forbidding its use. Japanese became the language of instruction in the schools and by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum. In 1940, Koreans were forced to change their family names and use Japanese surnames instead.”
In 1886, Inoue (follower of Yukichi Fukuzawa) published first newspaer 漢城周報 written in both Chinese charactor and Hangul.After that Korea came to use Hangul.
Before 1886,how many documents were written in Hungle?
Do you know any official document written in Hungle?

"by 1938 the Korean language had been completely eradicated from the curriculum" means until 1937 Korean language was one of the subject in school.
In fact, Korean was taught as a compulsory subject until 1937.
From 1938 to 1941