What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

[Maciamo]

Like Kjeld mention it in another thread (http://forum.japanreference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=205&pagenumber=2), there has been a lot of migrations from the Asian mainland to the islands of Indonesia and Japan during the ice age. I recommend a very good book on the development and migration of human societies : Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Jared Diamond (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393317552/qid=1031547198/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-1099547-2529756?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

Indonesians, Malaysians and Philipinos actually originate from Southern China. They'd have migrated on boats via Taiwan and displace the original inhabitants that might have been related to Dravidians of Southern India. In Papua-New Guinea, the indigenous people were more numerous and well settled, so that they had to go around them and continued to Polynesia (all the pacific islands) and New Zealand. With pimitive boats, they were able to travel as far as Hawai or the Easter Islands. Linguistically, all polynesian languages, from Hawai to the Fiji and New Zealand, via the Marianias, Kiribati, Tuvalu, etc. are closely related. They are related to Indonesians languages as well. Differences between regions increase with the time they were settled, not the distance between them. So, 2 groups of islands in the pacific might be 500km away, but the inhabitants of one may only have been settled a few generations away by inhabitants of the other group.

Indonesians ?

I have noticed myself quite a few similarities between Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia and Japanese language. Apart from the very similar pronounciation in both languages, there is the same hierarchical differences in personal pronouns. For example "you" is either "anda" or "kamu" with the same meaning and wa of using as "anata" and "kimi" in Japanese. Likewise, "suki" 好き (to like) translates "suka" in Bahasa. Such similarities are striking. In both languages you can make a plural by doubling the word, like wareware in Japanese (ware = I or you, wareware = we). Doubling of words is so common that there is a kanji that only means the word is doubled(" 々") in written Japanese. However, it is more common in Bahasa nowadays where it is almost systematical. Expressions like "ittekimasu, itteirashai, tadaima and okaeri" also exist in Indonesian (selamat jalan, selamat tinggal...), but not in European languages. I am not a specialist of any of these languages at all. I barely know a few words in Indonesian, but it's enough to see the link with Japanese.

Japanese matsuri ressembles so much Balinese ones that one could wonder if they are actually the same country. I've seen a cremation in Bali ; they cary the dead body very much like Japanese carry a mikoshi. Balinese funerals are joyful and people swinging the "mikoshi" in the streets and making loud noise to scare the evil sprits. Basically, Bali is Hindu, but has mixed it with the original animist religion. Shinto is also an animisn, and we can see lots of other cultural similarities between non-muslim/non-christian Indonesia and non-buddhist Japan. For example, the wall and entrance around traditional houses and the style of Balinese temples and Japanese shrines. Buddhism, Islam and Christianity all arrived much later after the supposed original ancestors of the 2 archipelago split from each other, but have changed radically both societies. We have to look for the purely original culture (what might be very difficult nowadays) to find the connection existing in late prehistoric time.

Koreans ?

Japanese and Korean grammar are very similar. My Koreans acquaintances in Japan told me that some words were also almost identical, such as kazoku, sentaku or hakkiri. Both languages are classsified in the Altaic group of languages. Check this comparison of Altaic languages (http://www.concentric.net/~yoman1/home/altaic.html) together.

About half of Japanese vocabulary comes from Chinese via kanji compounds. However, it seems that there hasn't been any much direct migration from China to Japan, except a few scholars or monks. But ultimately, going back a few millenia, all East Asian are from Chinese-Mongolian origin. Linguistically and culturally, Japanese are closer to Koreans and Indonesians.

[thomas]

Doubling of words is so common that there is a kanji that only means the word is doubled(" 々") in written Japanese.

Orang orang = orang²

:)

Thanks for your excellent expos�, Maciamo!

[moyashi]

hehe, the turtle boy story and the lost island of Atlantis finds proof in more of maciamo's posts :)

Have you found anything more about the Mongolian influence? I know that linguistically both Mongolians and Japanese share deep connections. Let alone appearance wise some are difficult to differienciate. Hmmm, WWI + WWII influences?

[hua he]

suki in Japanese have the same meaning with suka in Malay

Well, actually the Malay term "suka" was translated directly from Hokkien dialect into Malay.

There is a group of people in Malaysia called "Baba" (also called Peranakan). They are mix-blooded descendants of Malay-Chinese (mostly Hokkien). So, Malay absorbed many Hokkien words into their language, like "pangkin" "di mana". The word "suka" in Hokkien and Malay have the same meaning.

[dark_masamune]

i know from what i've studied, i believe the oldest known skeleton found in japan was believed to be at least 400,000 years old. there's a popular idea that because the japanese are much taller than their asian neighbors, there might have been some siberian influence, maybe even european at some point. correct me if im wrong, but the Ainu, being the indegnious class of japan shared alot of characteristics that weren't "typical asian." i also read in another book that some types of tools were excavated in northern honshu that didn't appear to be japanese at all, but norse. with language, the same can be considered of the entire world. it changes with times, based on legitamacy in religion, leadership, ect. not to mention being modified over such a long period of time. its my opinion that it did derive from korean and chinese influence, maybe brought with the first buddists. and eventually added on to. mexican spanish is another great example. spaniards taught the aztrecs their language for trade and missionary purpose but today its more or so a refined mexi-spainish-aztec language. adhering to their own culture and grammar.

[halx]

Hello Maciamo,

probably I don't know much more about Bahasa Indonesia than you (and maybe I should better ask my Indonesian friends) but I think that doubling is not a plural in a grammtical sense but gives "enhanced" meaning to words. Word e.g. is kata but kata-kata is not just words but a sentence, orang is person but orang-orang may refer to a tribe or nation (actually orang alone already means people and I experienced Indonesians to use "people" for a single person), jalan is the street and jalan-jalan might be journey (using many roads probably) or means to take a walk (maybe also detour but I cannot remember). At least that is how I understood it.

Regard the similarity of suka and suki.: This also struck me in one of my first Japanses lessons but I think that could be pure coincidence. There was a very intersting issue of the German publication "Spektrum der Wissenschaften" dealing with the development and history of human languages. The basis of linguistic sciences is, simply put, comparison and one article warned against "obvious" analogies.

Finally you may find many Sanskrit words spread by Buddhism in Indonesian and hence may found similar words in all of south and sout-eastern Asia.

Just once again, I'm not a linguist and all I had to say might have been wrong :) but this topic has always excited me and your contribution is extremely interesting.

[Tellklaus]

Ancient Korean word for Japanese "matsuri" was "ma'z'ri" which meant "welcome the Gods"

[Hanada Tattsu]

Well, I think that two migrations happened in Japan. The first was by the Ainu, who arrived from Europe long before the Yayoi and Jomons from present day South Korea arrived, and drove the Ainu to Hokkaido and Okinawa, where they still reside today.

[Maciamo]

Originally posted by Hanada Tattsu
Well, I think that two migrations happened in Japan. The first was by the Ainu, who arrived from Europe long before the Yayoi and Jomons from present day South Korea arrived, and drove the Ainu to Hokkaido and Okinawa, where they still reside today.

What do you mean from Europe ?

Ainu where from North East Asia (Siberia ?), weren't they ?

I've never heard of Ainu living in Okinawa and those in Hokkaido (less than 1% of all people in Hokkaido) have all mixed blood with Japanese nowadays

[Hanada Tattsu]

No, I read that the Ainu were from Europe, not Western Europe, like England and France, but more of East Europe, like Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. That's what I read.

And as for the Okinawa thing, when the Yayoi and Jomon migrated to Japan, they pushed the Ainu from the main islands, they pushed them down to Okinawa Island, and up to Hokkaido.

[Maciamo]

From what I read, the only Ainu still living in Japan are restricted to Hokkaido. They used to occupy all the north of Japan (Tohoku) till a few centuries ago, then were pushed to Hokkaido (but maybe in the Edo period, not Jomon or Yayoi). People from Okinawa don't look Ainu at all. Their language is related to some native languages of Taiwan (i.e. not Mandarin Chinese), not to the Ainu language, nor Japanese. Besides, it would suprise me that Ainu would have ventured at sea to reach small islands hundreds of km off the coast of Kyushu which they might not have known of. From what I've read, Japanese already lived in Western Japan in Jomon and Ainu in the North-East. Not sure when Japanese arrived in Japan (and from where ? probably Korea, but they also seem to be related to Indonesians ?).

[miyuki]

We have mainly 4 theories about Jomon Jin and Yayoi jin.
Recentry many people support (4).(Some deny (4).)

(1)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were thrown out of Japan by Yayoi jin.
(2)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were mixed with Yayoi Jin.
(3)Native Japanese gradually changed their physical features.
And they became Yayoi Jin.
(4)There lived Native Japanese.They were called Jomon Jin who had physical features from south ward.In Yayoi period,people who had physical features from nothern ward (Yayoi Jin) came to nothern Kyusyu from Eurasia.They went down to Kyusyu and up to Honsyu.Jomon Jin moved to Okinawa and Hokkaido.

According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.

I got these informations from some books.
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.
Interesting!
:blush:

[Maciamo]

I don't think Japanese are closer to Amerindians or Inuits than from Korean and Chinese (and even South-East Asian). Physically they are much closer to Korean and Chinese. SE Asian have darker skin and can be divided in subgroups. Cambodian have very dark skin, but not Vietnamese. Real Thai have brown skin, but many are white because of Chinese imigration (especiallu\y in Bangkok).

I read that Indonesians, Malays, Philipinos and Polynesians were all originally from South China and then migrated by boat.

Japanese can't be from the same Northern Mongoloid group as Ameridians because Ameridians went to America about 10.000 years ago, while even Han Chinese only invaded China from Mongolia only about 3000 years ago. Then, there were no other way than crossing from Korea before the first civilizations (2000BC in China) and the development of proper boats/ships.

Have a look at American Indians from Inuits to Sioux, Cheyenne, Apache, Aztecs, Caribi, Tupi and Quechuas. Eventhough they were the same original group of migrants and it took no longer than 1000 years for them to spread from Canada to Chile/Argentina, they now look very different physically, but all have darker skin. If any of those people had lived in Jomon in Japan, they are probably extinct and surely haven't mixed with further migrants from Korea and China who are present day Japanese.

The ear wax thing is certainly just a matter of climate (even if its in the genes, it could change after a a only few hundred years, like physical features).

[miyuki]

It is true that Japaneses are genetically close to Chineses and Koreans.

The ape-man from Africa reached Eurasia 1,000,000 years ago.
They reached China at least 400,000 or 500,000 years ago.
They already had Mongorian's features.
It is thought that some reached Japan.
(Other assertion: They went to south-east Asia.
They were ancestors of all Asians.
Some of them went to China,southern China to Japan.)
They were "old" Mongoroid (Jomon Jin) and had southern features.

Jomon Jin's gene were fit with people near Lake Bikal.
So some assert that "old" Mongoroid devided into three groups(Siberia,China,south-east Asia) from here.

Some "old" Mongoroid went to China(around Beijin) and Japan.
Others went to south-east Asia.

Others went to northern part of China,Siberia and crossed Bering sea to America.
Then they gradually got other features to live in cold regions.
They were "new" Mongoroid.
"New" Mongoroid in China or korea went to Japan in Yayoi period.
Thus, bodily features of Jomon jin and Yayoi jin were different.
It is said that Ainu and Okinawa people have Jomon jin's features.

Chinese,Koreans,South-east Asiens,Japanese,Native Americans and Inuits are genetically all Mongoroid.

In Kofun period(3rd-6th century), many people with skills were from China and Korea.We call them "Torai jin." They also lived in Japan.

[Maciamo]

I've also noticed that some Japanese (out of 1000 maybe) had darker skin, almost like Indonesians (but they were pure Japanese, I am sure). Could they be descendant from the Jomon-jin who mixed with Yayoi-jin in Honshu, Kyushuu and Shikoku ?

What about Burakumin ? Do they have particular physical features ? How did people recognise them ?

In Edo-jidai, the Japanese class system was very similar to the Indian Caste system. In either country, there were 4 fixed classes (people cannot change class) + outclassed : the "Untouchables" in India and the "Burakumin" in Japan. Both were given dirty jobs and only them were allowed to kill animals and make leather.

In India, the caste system was established by (white) Aryan invaders around 2000BC to sepate dark-skinned native Dravidians and the new white-skinned ruling class (2 higher castes of priest and warriors). Obviously there has been some mixed blood since then, but generally upper-caste have fairer skin (sometimes blue-grey eyes) and lower castes and especially untouchables are darker.

Could the same have happen in Japan with Jomon-jin ? Are they the burakumin ? Do burakumin have darker skin ?

[jspecdan]

This whole thing would explain why when I hear Korean I'm thinking that I'm hearing a totally different Japanese dialect. Korean sounds very similar to Japanese.

[Maciamo]

Korean is 70% similar to Japanese. The grammar and word order is almost the same.

I don't speak Korean myself, but I've lots of Korean friends in Japan, some of whom speak very well Japanese and English as well, so they explained to me how similiar Korean and Japanese are.

As there are so many dialect of Japanese and that a Aomori-ben speaker wouldn't understand a Kagoshima-ben speaker, I guess some of Western Japan's dialect must be even closer to Korean. Unfortunately, I don't know anyobody who speaks Western Japanese dialects (such as Northern Kyushuu) and Korean. Any Japano-Korean linguists here ?

[neko_girl22]

I can hardly speak "standard" Japanese let alone the kagoshima dialect here. Picking up a few words though like "kingo-kingo" and "tege-tege"..... it's fun :)
but confusing as I also know some kansai-ben (hubby is from Kobe originally)

[miyuki]

(answer to post #15)

Burakumin is not a proper name to describe some nations nor some class.
I recognize it a kind of antiwords like an eskimo.
We learn about status distinctions like this.
(you may be boring.sorry...)

In Yayoi period, there were many small countries.
Each counties have rulers and slaves.

I am not sure where such ancient slaves came.
Jomon jin gradually moved toward the north and south.
As there were battles between each Yayoi jin's countries,they might be defeated people,I guess.

In Kamakura or Muromachi period,there were some people thought to be a lower class.
It mainly depended on their occupation.
They were gardeners or singers or performers who walked around village to village etc,.
Some of them made gardens of Ginkaku or Ryoan ji in Kyoto.
They had no houses or they lived by the side of rivers.
Because such non-productive places were free of duty.
As for them,if they wanted or if they could have a chance,they could change their occupation freely.

At Toyotomi Hideyoshi's age (Azuchi Momoyama period), he devided farmers and bushi by laws.By his laws,farmers couldn't be allowed to have any weapons or couldn't move their inhabited areas.

In Edo period, Bakufu succeded Hideyoshi's policy.
They fixed people's class by their occupation or inhabited areas.
They were bushi,farmer,craftman and merchants.
All of them were organized strictly.
They made farmer of low positions.
(They were origins of burakumin,you said.)
It is said that they had to make such positions so that they might not band together against bushi.
At that age, 85% of the populations were farmers. 7% were bushi.

<my opinion>
People had descriminated against some occupations or inhabited areas through such history.
But they could change their occupations or inhabited areas freely until Hideyoshi's age.
Edo bakufu used people's such consciousness in their system.
In fact,they tightened up their laws against farmers of law positions in times of dearth.
Your word "burakumin" may be after Meiji period,after the law on 1871 that made people free from class discrimination of Edo.
Government announced so,but it was not easy to change people's mind immediately.
As for us,educated people never use the word (I believe).

[miyuki]

Maciamo san asked me about color of skin.....
sorry my answer is far from your question..............................

[miyuki]

but I coudn't let your word pass.............................................. ................

[miyuki]

please start your topic 'what's the orgin of japanese people' again............................................. .................................................. ...

[Gaki]

It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.

BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.

A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ when he was in his search for the magical herb of immortality, sent thousands of people to the east for the "mushroom islands".
But of course we know these thing doesnt exist, and since they couldnt find and going back to China would only mean death (for not finding it, is an offence to the emperor). So these people who travelled to the east, found the island of Japan and settled there.

LOL ~ just re~read what i wrote and i sound like such a story-teller ^^;

Also you can see with facial looks there are many similarities between the two.

[Maciamo]

The encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=18376&tocid=0&query=burakumin&ct=) has this explanation on the Burakumin. The term itself is apparently neutral ("hamlet peolpe") :

also called Eta (“pollution abundant”), outcaste, or “untouchable,” Japanese minority, occupying the lowest level of the traditional Japanese social system. The Japanese term eta is highly pejorative, but prejudice has tended even to tarnish the otherwise neutral term burakumin itself.

Unfortunately I haven't suscribed to this site, so I can't get the rest of the article. If someone has, or has a paper or CD-Rom version, could they give us more info.

[miyuki]

I looled up my dictionaries.
Kojien and Super nihongo daijiten(CD-ROM) explain Buraku shortly.
But both don't have the word "Burakumin."
Others explain Buraku = villages.

Kojien (Iwanami)
Kokugo Jiten (Kadokawa)
Kanwa Tyu Jiten (Kadokawa)
Shin Kokugo Reikai Jiten (Syogakukan)
Shinsyu Kokugo Kanwa Jiten (Syueisya)
Super nihongo daijiten CD-ROM (Gakkenn)

[miyuki]

I found the word in "Suiheisya sengen(1922)," which was the declaration that they demanded the degnity of human beings.
They called themselves so with pain and pride.

[-Z3oM-]

japan ppl originated frm korea...www.uglychinese.org has the info

[sonatinefan]

Hello,

Linguistically I read that Japanese is primarily Altaic, but with a significant Austronesian substructure. Perhaps this supports the theory that there were different factors-One from Southeast Asia, and another from Northeast Asia, and the Ainu.
I have also read a theory that the Altaic component of Japanese may be related to the language spoken in Archaic Koguryo, a kingdom located in Korea and Manchuria attested in 30 BCE.

[Uncle Frank]

you turn them upside down, it says on their feet : "MADE IN JAPAN".

Frank

:? :blush:

[Martialartsnovice]

Excuse Me, Maciamo

I like you are right when you sadi that the Ainu gene/bloodlines would have come from Lake Bakal in Siberia. But What led to the migration as you said was the ice age and land bridges. It was the case also for the Native American Indian Tribes, with their migration, they did it to follow their food supplies, afterwards the bridges were deestroyed by the glacial recession. It could have been the cases with the Ainu, they must have followed their food animals down the continent to the Isalnds of present day Japan (Nihon). As for the darker gene coloration, it could have been a migratory wave as noted in earlier postings, or it could have been a physical adaption to life on an Island. The Native Americans have beeen gene-mapped to their origins for common ancestory, and European and American scientists and genetists have found that most current Asian peoples and Native American Indian tribes share the same ancestoral beginings. But as for the ear wax idea, it is a physicla change to suit the enviroment of the persons surroundings.

[ToMach]

Linguistically I read that Japanese is primarily Altaic, but with a significant Austronesian substructure. Perhaps this supports the theory that there were different factors-One from Southeast Asia, and another from Northeast Asia, and the Ainu.
I have also read a theory that the Altaic component of Japanese may be related to the language spoken in Archaic Koguryo, a kingdom located in Korea and Manchuria attested in 30 BCE.
Japanese has in deed some caracteristics that make it close to the Altaic languages (Turkic, Mongolian, Manchu-Tungusic, Korean), but the Altaic languages don't constitue a genetic language family, as Indo-European for example. Their similarities come from cohabitation and borrowing. It is thus not surprising that Japanese would share some of those similarities if it comes from NE Asia.
The evidence for a link with Austronesian is rather thin.
About Koguryo, the places name of this kingdom look similar to Japanese, but we don't know if it reflects the language of Koguryo neither what this language really was.

I have noticed myself quite a few similarities between Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia and Japanese language. Apart from the very similar pronounciation in both languages, there is the same hierarchical differences in personal pronouns. For example "you" is either "anda" or "kamu" with the same meaning and wa of using as "anata" and "kimi" in Japanese. Likewise, "suki" 好き (to like) translates "suka" in Bahasa. Such similarities are striking. In both languages you can make a plural by doubling the word, like wareware in Japanese (ware = I or you, wareware = we). Doubling of words is so common that there is a kanji that only means the word is doubled(" 々") in written Japanese. However, it is more common in Bahasa nowadays where it is almost systematical. Expressions like "ittekimasu, itteirashai, tadaima and okaeri" also exist in Indonesian (selamat jalan, selamat tinggal...), but not in European languages. I am not a specialist of any of these languages at all. I barely know a few words in Indonesian, but it's enough to see the link with Japanese.
Sorry to say that, but for me it is far away from enough to see a link with those 2 languages. You cannot establish a relationship with typological similarities (pronunciation, word order, grammatical constructions, etc) or with one or two words that look like (anata for "you" is quite recent in Japanese, and kimi means "lord" at first). The methodology of historical linguistics is far more exigeant.

Japanese and Korean grammar are very similar. My Koreans acquaintances in Japan told me that some words were also almost identical, such as kazoku, sentaku or hakkiri.
Those words are identical because they are borrowings of the same word in Chinese (not hakkiri)

I read that the Ainu were from Europe, not Western Europe, like England and France, but more of East Europe, like Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.
No the Aynu are definitely Asians, and more precisely mongoloids (not mongolians!). It is clear from biologic studies.

People from Okinawa don't look Ainu at all. Their language is related to some native languages of Taiwan (i.e. not Mandarin Chinese), not to the Ainu language, nor Japanese
Sorry, but this is entirely wrong. People from Okinawa and other Ryukyu islands are closer to Jomon people and to Aynu than Mainland Japanese. And they speak what we call "Ryukyuan", a sister language of Japanese, not related to the languages of Taiwan.

I don't think Japanese are closer to Amerindians or Inuits than from Korean and Chinese (and even South-East Asian). Physically they are much closer to Korean and Chinese. SE Asian have darker skin and can be divided in subgroups. Cambodian have very dark skin, but not Vietnamese. Real Thai have brown skin, but many are white because of Chinese imigration (especiallu\y in Bangkok).
You can't make conclusions from such basic observations. You have to look at the squeletons, blood, DNA, etc.

Japanese can't be from the same Northern Mongoloid group as Ameridians because Ameridians went to America about 10.000 years ago
They can, we can suppose that the Ameridians separated form the group very early (thus their great differences) and migraed, while the other stayed and evolved into what would become Chinese, Japanese and other NE Asian people

I guess some of Western Japan's dialect must be even closer to Korean. Unfortunately, I don't know anyobody who speaks Western Japanese dialects (such as Northern Kyushuu) and Korean. Any Japano-Korean linguists here ?
No, Western dialects are not closer to Korean.

Ancient Korean word for Japanese "matsuri" was "ma'z'ri" which meant "welcome the Gods"
Sorry to tell you that this is a lie. Now, if you have any concrete evidence, I would be glad to see it

[bossel]

Sorry, but this is entirely wrong. People from Okinawa and other Ryukyu islands are closer to Jomon people and to Aynu than Mainland Japanese. And they speak what we call "Ryukyuan", a sister language of Japanese, not related to the languages of Taiwan.
Not quite so, I think. At least according to this
study: (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10380372&dopt=Abstract)

"In the principal components analysis 3 Japanese populations (Ryukyuans, Hondo Japanese, and Ainu) formed a cluster and showed the highest affinity to 2 Korean populations. In the phylogenetic tree Ryukyuans and Ainu were neighbors, but the genetic distance between them was larger than the distances between Ryukyuans and Hondo Japanese and between Ryukyuans and Korean populations."

[canadian_kor]

ToMach, are you familiar with the horse-rider theory about the origins of Japanese? (That the ancestors of the Yayoi were horse-riders from Siberia that passed through Korea and conquered the Jomon natives.)

[ToMach]

Not quite so, I think. At least according to this What I meant is that all Japanese and Aynu are a mixture of Jomon and Yayoi, and the Jomon element is the strongest in Aynu first, Ryukyuans second, and Mainland Japanese last. So, while they remain close to the Mainland Japanese, Ryukyuan people have also a quite strong affinity with Aynu

ToMach, are you familiar with the horse-rider theory about the origins of Japanese? (That the ancestors of the Yayoi were horse-riders from Siberia that passed through Korea and conquered the Jomon natives.)
I think you make a mistake here : the Horserider theory, first proposed by Egami and modified by Ledyard, is about the invasion from the continent through Korea of a horse-riding tribe who conquered Japan and founded the Yamato state around 4th century AD. Thus they conquered not the Jomon but the Yayoi people, and are not the ancestors of modern Japanese.
But this theory has few supporters nowadays, as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.

[Martialartsnovice]

Konnichiwa ToMach-san,

I see that you are deeply interested in the genetic/linguistical background of modern japanese people. I have also heard of the horserifer theory, and have drawn similar conclusions as to your findings. I have also noticed the skin pigmentation differences in the SE Vs NE Asian peoples. It could be as you mentioned about the Riders conquering the Yaori, but I have heard of Early Russian/Scandinavian migrations to the Siberian plains and the Eastern Asian areas via inland Rivers and sea voyages crossing the southern tip of Africa, and of certain Arabic passages through the Caucuss Mountains. It could have been as I mentioned earlier about Siberian connection. THe Siberia theory as I have heard it called seems to me the most logicla, Because One could ride the Danube down to the Russian border, then travel to the Volga, then travel across land to the Amur river in northern Mongolia/Southern Russia. Then from there it would have been a matter of time before people would have sailed for the Japanese island of Hokkaido or even the others.

But this is just theories that I heard or read, in my world studies I especially have concentrated on the Asian histories, especially dealing with the pre Euorpean contaact and the silk road era in China. Europeans owe the Asian and Middle Eastern scientists for there discoveries. Granted that Europe would have discovered them latter on there own. But it could have taken decades longer then it took there Asian counterparts. Yes the Greeks and the Romans did give us the road, arch, geometry, government, and other things but they didnt create the first ironclad warships, or discover fireworks, or coal, or paper money. For all this I am gratefull.

[ToMach]

I have also noticed the skin pigmentation differences in the SE Vs NE Asian peoples.
I don't think that skin color is a reliable evidence, but yes there is a clive between NE Asia mongoloids and SE Asia ones.

It could be as you mentioned about the Riders conquering the Yaori, but I have heard of Early Russian/Scandinavian migrations to the Siberian plains and the Eastern Asian areas via inland Rivers and sea voyages crossing the southern tip of Africa, and of certain Arabic passages through the Caucuss Mountains. It could have been as I mentioned earlier about Siberian connection.THe Siberia theory as I have heard it called seems to me the most logicla, Because One could ride the Danube down to the Russian border, then travel to the Volga, then travel across land to the Amur river in northern Mongolia/Southern Russia. Then from there it would have been a matter of time before people would have sailed for the Japanese island of Hokkaido or even the others.
But we find no archeological or biological trace of a European migration to Eastern Asia nor Japan in prehistoric times.

[canadian_kor]

I posted this link on another thread. I think this is the best info on the origins of the Japanese online: http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/paekch_e.html

I think you make a mistake here : the Horserider theory, first proposed by Egami and modified by Ledyard, is about the invasion from the continent through Korea of a horse-riding tribe who conquered Japan and founded the Yamato state around 4th century AD. Thus they conquered not the Jomon but the Yayoi people, and are not the ancestors of modern Japanese.
But this theory has few supporters nowadays, as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.

So, what is your theory? Who do you believe the Yayoi were? Were they Tungusic peoples who entered the Japanese islands via Korea or another group that came from South East Asia/Polynesia? Personally, I believe that the Yayoi were a people who had two genetic roots: Tungusic and Mon-Khmer.

[ToMach]

I posted this link on another thread. I think this is the best info on the origins of the Japanese online: http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/paekch_e.html.
As I said on the other thread :
I read the book some time ago, but it has two major flaws :
1. It relies too heavily on the horserider theory, which is rejected by most of the archeologists
2. It has too much Korean nationalistic points of view on the ancient history of Korea and Japan.

So, what is your theory? Who do you believe the Yayoi were? Were they Tungusic peoples who entered the Japanese islands via Korea or another group that came from South East Asia/Polynesia? Personally, I believe that the Yayoi were a people who had two genetic roots: Tungusic and Mon-Khmer
I am not an anthropologist neither an archeologist, so I don't have my own theory, but the consensus is that Jomon people (not a single homogeneous people, possibly different austronesian and/or austroasiatic people) arrived very early from South East Asia. Then arrived the Yayoi Korean-like people from the North East (but we don't know their first homeland), and they mixed more or less with Jomon people. The isolated Ryukyuan people got less mixed than the mainland and remained closer to Jomon, and Aynu are descendants of one of the Jomon people who remained very little mixed. This is what is called the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, and is accepted by most of the scholars and scientists in and out Japan.
For Mon-Khmer, what makes you believe that? By the way, at those time, I'm not sure we should speak of Mon-Khmer people, I prefer the broader term "austroasiatic".

[canadian_kor]

As I said on the other thread :
I read the book some time ago, but it has two major flaws :
1. It relies too heavily on the horserider theory, which is rejected by most of the archeologists
2. It has too much Korean nationalistic points of view on the ancient history of Korea and Japan.


I am not an anthropologist neither an archeologist, so I don't have my own theory, but the consensus is that Jomon people (not a single homogeneous people, possibly different austronesian and/or austroasiatic people) arrived very early from South East Asia. Then arrived the Yayoi Korean-like people from the North East (but we don't know their first homeland), and they mixed more or less with Jomon people. The isolated Ryukyuan people got less mixed than the mainland and remained closer to Jomon, and Aynu are descendants of one of the Jomon people who remained very little mixed. This is what is called the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, and is accepted by most of the scholars and scientists in and out Japan.
For Mon-Khmer, what makes you believe that? By the way, at those time, I'm not sure we should speak of Mon-Khmer people, I prefer the broader term "austroasiatic".

I read somewhere that the modern Japanese has Mon genetic roots from South East Asia (possibly from the Vietnam-Cambodian region). National Geographic Japan once had an issue dealing with the Mon peoples in South East Asia and how similar many of them look to many modern Japanese.

[Martialartsnovice]

:-)But the early migrations of the Scandinavians, That I spoke of, happened in the formation of the germanic tribes. Such as the Goths, Huns, and other such tribes. In one respect the skin color couldnt be used, as a link, due to varying exposures to sun.

[ToMach]

I read somewhere that the modern Japanese has Mon genetic roots from South East Asia (possibly from the Vietnam-Cambodian region). National Geographic Japan once had an issue dealing with the Mon peoples in South East Asia and how similar many of them look to many modern Japanese.
This may indeed be possible. There are traces of migrations to Japan from Southern East Asia, but the details are not clear, and I don't think that the fact that those people "look similar" to Japanese is a sufficient proof.

:-)But the early migrations of the Scandinavians, That I spoke of, happened in the formation of the germanic tribes. Such as the Goths, Huns, and other such tribes. In one respect the skin color couldnt be used, as a link, due to varying exposures to sun.
There were maybe migrations of Scandinavian people to Germany, I don't know, but aside from the Mongoloids, there was no other massive migration to ancient Japan. And you shouldn't put the Huns along with the Goths as a Germanic tribe.

[ToMach]

For people interested in the problem of the origins of the Japanese people, one of the best book is :
Hudson, Mark J. 1999 Ruins of Identity : Ethnogenesis in the Japanese Islands, University of Hawai'i Press
It is a critical synthesis of many studies : anthropology (genetics, virology, skeletons, dentology), archaeology and linguistics. It is not only about Japanese, but also Ryukyuans and Aynu.

[Wang]

I am not an anthropologist neither an archeologist, so I don't have my own theory, but the consensus is that Jomon people (not a single homogeneous people, possibly different austronesian and/or austroasiatic people) arrived very early from South East Asia. Then arrived the Yayoi Korean-like people from the North East (but we don't know their first homeland), and they mixed more or less with Jomon people. The isolated Ryukyuan people got less mixed than the mainland and remained closer to Jomon, and Aynu are descendants of one of the Jomon people who remained very little mixed. This is what is called the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, and is accepted by most of the scholars and scientists in and out Japan.

I also think this is the most likely theory of the origins of the Japanese.

Now the question is where did the Yayoi come from? The following article was posted a while ago on this forum has found evidence that supports the theory that the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze.

"People who introduced irrigation techniques to the Japanese archipelago in the Yayoi Period (250 B.C.-300) were believed to have come to Japan either from the Korean Peninsula across the Tsushima Strait, or from northern China across the Yellow Sea.
The latest findings, however, bolster another theory suggesting the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze, which is believed to be the birthplace of irrigated rice cultivation.
Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, said the researchers compared Yayoi remains found in Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han (202 B.C.-8) in Jiangsu in a three-year project begun in 1996.
The researchers found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.
Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jomon Period.
But the most persuasive findings resulted from tests revealing that genetic samples from three of 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains, the scientists said."

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news111.htm

[canadian_kor]

For people interested in the problem of the origins of the Japanese people, one of the best book is :
Hudson, Mark J. 1999 Ruins of Identity : Ethnogenesis in the Japanese Islands, University of Hawai'i Press
It is a critical synthesis of many studies : anthropology (genetics, virology, skeletons, dentology), archaeology and linguistics. It is not only about Japanese, but also Ryukyuans and Aynu.

ToMach, can you give us a brief synopsis of the book?

I also think this is the most likely theory of the origins of the Japanese.

Now the question is where did the Yayoi come from? The following article was posted a while ago on this forum has found evidence that supports the theory that the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze.

"People who introduced irrigation techniques to the Japanese archipelago in the Yayoi Period (250 B.C.-300) were believed to have come to Japan either from the Korean Peninsula across the Tsushima Strait, or from northern China across the Yellow Sea.
The latest findings, however, bolster another theory suggesting the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze, which is believed to be the birthplace of irrigated rice cultivation.
Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, said the researchers compared Yayoi remains found in Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han (202 B.C.-8) in Jiangsu in a three-year project begun in 1996.
The researchers found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.
Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jomon Period.
But the most persuasive findings resulted from tests revealing that genetic samples from three of 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains, the scientists said."

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news111.htm

Sorry to burst your bubble Wang, but the Yayoi did not come from eastern China. Scholarship generally agrees that the Yayoi were generally of the Siberian-Tungusic stock (with some mixing with the "original" Koreans) that entered Japan via Korea. That article is flawed, I believe.

Btw, I also read somewhere that the Ainu were not a proto-Caucasoid race, but Austronesian Negroids (like the Australian aborigines). I found this interesting, since some Ainus do have Australian aboriginal facial traits (however, many modern Ainus look virtually mongoloid with some caucasoid traits).

[To anyone reading] Another thing, why are many Japanese so adverse to the idea that their ancestors came from nomadic tribes from Siberia? I found this curious. It's like many of them (even some scholars) like to move away from the idea that Japan had any sort of connections with Siberia.

[Wang]

Sorry to burst your bubble Wang, but the Yayoi did not come from eastern China. Scholarship generally agrees that the Yayoi were generally of the Siberian-Tungusic stock (with some mixing with the "original" Koreans) that entered Japan via Korea. That article is flawed, I believe.

Why is this article flawed? What counter evidence do you have?

[ToMach]

ToMach, can you give us a brief synopsis of the book?
It supports the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, with Modern Japanese coming from a mixture of Jomon people from South Asia with Yayoi people from the Korean peninsula

Sorry to burst your bubble Wang, but the Yayoi did not come from eastern China. Scholarship generally agrees that the Yayoi were generally of the Siberian-Tungusic stock (with some mixing with the "original" Koreans) that entered Japan via Korea. That article is flawed, I believe.
Siberian? I don't think so. For Yayoi, we know that they came from the Korean peninsula, but maybe that before that they were in the Yangtze area, this is a possibility.

Btw, I also read somewhere that the Ainu were not a proto-Caucasoid race, but Austronesian Negroids (like the Australian aborigines). I found this interesting, since some Ainus do have Australian aboriginal facial traits (however, many modern Ainus look virtually mongoloid with some caucasoid traits).
Aynu are definitely NOT Caucasians. They are proto-Mongoloids, but not Negroids

[To anyone reading] Another thing, why are many Japanese so adverse to the idea that their ancestors came from nomadic tribes from Siberia? I found this curious. It's like many of them (even some scholars) like to move away from the idea that Japan had any sort of connections with Siberia.
From Siberia, I don't think so, so let's say "from the continent". And if the Japanese come from mainly Yayoi agricultors, they can not be nomadic tribes. But I don't think they are reticent to the idea of a migration from the continent.

[canadian_kor]

It supports the dual model of Japanese ethnogenesis, with Modern Japanese coming from a mixture of Jomon people from South Asia with Yayoi people from the Korean peninsula


Siberian? I don't think so. For Yayoi, we know that they came from the Korean peninsula, but maybe that before that they were in the Yangtze area, this is a possibility.


Aynu are definitely NOT Caucasians. They are proto-Mongoloids, but not Negroids


From Siberia, I don't think so, so let's say "from the continent". And if the Japanese come from mainly Yayoi agricultors, they can not be nomadic tribes. But I don't think they are reticent to the idea of a migration from the continent.

Regarding the ethnography of the Ainu, click here: http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/jp-origin.htm

I don't know how one can say that the Yayoi were descendants of people from eastern China. If the Yayoi came into Japan through Korea, they were more likely to be of Tungusic origin. The Tungusic element arrived in Japan before the Paekche and Koguryo refugees arrived in Japan circa 400 AD.

Also, many of the Japanese may not be reticent of the idea that they came from the Asiatic continent, but they do downplay the idea that the Japanese in general descended from tribes that came from Siberia or Central Asia.

[ToMach]

Regarding the ethnography of the Ainu, click here: http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/jp-origin.htm
I prefer not to rely on this rather Korean nationalistic website. When on another page (Who are the Koreans? (http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/go-chosun.htm)) you see such crap as :
The first Korean nation, Han-gook (also pronounced whan-gook, 桓國), was established in 7,197 BC and lasted 3,301 years. According to an archive recently discovered (桓檀古記), this nation was made of 12 tribes in the region of Lake Baikal in Siberia. About 5500 years ago, the climate in Siberia began to cool down and people from this nation began to move out in several directions. One group, sumiri (수밀이 須密爾 -- called the Sumerians by the Westerners), migrated to Mesopotamia and established the Ur, Urk, Lagash, Umma and other city states. The Sumerians had dark hair and share a common linguistic origin with the Koreans. Another group crossed the Beringia and moved into America, while a third group moved into Manchuria and the Korean peninsula. A branch of the America-bound group moved to Japan through Saccharin and pushed out Ainus who came from south centuries earlier.
The king of Han-gook dispatched about 3,000 colonists to the area around Mt. Baiktu, which was inhabited by primitive tribes - the Tiger and the Bear tribes. The Han colonists subdued these tribes and established a new nation, Bai-dal (배달국 倍達國, also called 구리 九黎 and 한웅 桓雄 in Chinese chronicles) in 3,898 BC. This new nation occupied much of Manchuria and expanded into China: at its peak, Bai-dal occupied Habook, Hanam, Shantung, Gangso, Ahnwhi, and Julgang provinces of China. Its culture flourished: creation of 'Chinese' characters, codification of the Oriental medicine, advances in farming methods, and other innovations commonly attributed to the Chinese. The Bai-dal kingdom lasted 1565 years under 18 kings.
Go-Chosun (also called Dangun Chosun) followed Bai-dal in 2333 BC and lasted 2096 years. It was the most powerful nation in Asia of its era but it is rarely mentioned in history books because Japanese and Chinese historians shy away from glorifying the Korean people.
I just cannot considere anything written there as serious.
By the way, the source quoted for "Ainus descended from the Jomon people who inhabited the Japanese island. The Jomon people belonged to the Negroid coastal people of the Sundaland during the last Ice Age" seems also very unreliable to me. And there are many things wrong in the rest of the article.
I don't know how one can say that the Yayoi were descendants of people from eastern China. If the Yayoi came into Japan through Korea, they were more likely to be of Tungusic origin. The Tungusic element arrived in Japan before the Paekche and Koguryo refugees arrived in Japan circa 400 AD.
But what if those Tungusic people were originally from that region of China?

Also, many of the Japanese may not be reticent of the idea that they came from the Asiatic continent, but they do downplay the idea that the Japanese in general descended from tribes that came from Siberia or Central Asia.
Again I don't think this is true anymore. Why do you have this impression?

[ippolito]

A question Maciamo
When I was last year in Tokyo I saw many girls with boots (it was winter)
that were walking with difficulties....the same problem I have not seen in Korea..
is the seisan position that make some problems to jp women?

[TuskCracker]

Malaysians

I lived in Malaysia. They are descendants of Polynesians.

[梁铠赞]

It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.

BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.

A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ when he was in his search for the magical herb of immortality, sent thousands of people to the east for the "mushroom islands".
But of course we know these thing doesnt exist, and since they couldnt find and going back to China would only mean death (for not finding it, is an offence to the emperor). So these people who travelled to the east, found the island of Japan and settled there.

LOL ~ just re~read what i wrote and i sound like such a story-teller ^^;

Also you can see with facial looks there are many similarities between the two.
my history teacher taught me the same things...I believe it's not a belief....I think it's the truth....^^ any opinion??

[tai2]

Great subject. Here is an interesting link ...

http://www.dai3gen.net/epage0.htm

Seems there are many varying opinions on this subject, I would be curious to know what is actually taught in elementary schools regarding the origin of Japanese people... anyone know?

[ToMach]

I believe it's not a belief
Hum...interesting argumentation...
Let's say that's a myth, maybe the distorted reflect of part of the truth or not, and let's look for real evidence somewhere else.

[Tonysoong]

Similarity between the Japanese language and the Fu-jian (southern China) dialect indicates that:

Anthropologically speaking, the Japanese may have originated from the south of China and may have at a time been brought to what's called Japan today by sea winds.

In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just something like the citystate wars within China.

[Tonysoong]

Similarity between the Fu-jian (coastal south China) dialect and the Japanese language suggests that the Japanese people may have originated in China and then at one time carried to what's called Japan by sea winds.

In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just like one of those citystate warfares within China.

Hmmm... interesting, isn't it?

[Wang]

In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just like one of those citystate warfares within China.

Hmmm... interesting, isn't it?

What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way. :shock: :shock:

[梁铠赞]

@wang

u are Taiwanese arent u? I believe u know the term 華人or華族...these 2 words refer to Chinese..but we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....
we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China...but we just claim that they(Japanese,Korean) are came from the same anchestor with the Chinese who originated from China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world...it's have nothing to do with occupying other countries...

[lexico]

I believe u know the term 華人 or 華族... we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....I think I see what you mean; and I'm trying not to misread your freindly intentions. Nevertheless, I believe we live in a time when 'ethnicity' has become a hypersensitive issue to many people. This, in my opinion, is due to the regrettable colonial experience of the 1800's-1900's that literally obliterated so many indigenous countries, cultures, and languages all over the non-west European sphere.

Please do not take my comment as a criticism of your explanation of 華人or 華族 nor of the customary use within China or Chinese speaking communities. But I for one would greatly appreciate if you would refrain from translating it as 'someone with a Chinese face.' I would much more appreciate the alternative translation 'Asian-looking.' Being called 'Chinese-looking' can be taken well; nevertheless it is still inaccurate ultimately.

I'm just asking for just a little political correctness, or simple courtesy, as it can become an emotional thing for many, many Asian-looking people who happen not to be Chinese either by country or ethnicity.

btw 'race' in 'yellow skinned race' or any 'race' should be avoided, I think, because it reminds us of WWII attrocities in a very, very disturbing way. I know you didn;t mean that though.we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China.I'm quite relieved at your statement. :D
but we just claim that we (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) came from the same ancestor who stayed at China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world.There's just a little danger here. Just to give you an alternate theory, the lowlands of the latest glacial peaks were below the current sea level.

Please check the shallow underwaters region in yellow-green (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_wp.jpg) where the majority of hunter-gatherer-fisher-farmers of the early neolithic period of East Asia are believed to have lived in. I'd say most Asians are descended from those lowland peoples, with a relatively small contribution from the highland peoples if I am allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction.

Yet I too admit it makes popular myth and story telling fun and easy to understand for the children. ;-) No harm done as long as we don't take it literally.
What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way.Wang, while I understand your frustration at least on the superficial level, I somehow get the feeling that you are being paranoid about the Chinese legitimacy. Chill out, and you'll do just fine. Building up your resources and resourcefulness. Taiwan will have every right to exist and flourish as any other country. But contending with Mainland China for legitimacy would be asking for trouble it seems. Also picking on faults beyond what is acceptable as two equal countries in the international community is not cool. I don't know how to say it another way. Why can't you be diplomatic about your neighbor's faults ? You shouldn't try to use it to your advantage.

[梁铠赞]

I think I see what you mean; and I'm trying not to misread your freindly intentions. Nevertheless, I believe we live in a time when 'ethnicity' has become a hypersensitive issue to many people. This, in my opinion, is due to the regrettable colonial experience of the 1800's-1900's that literally obliterated so many indigenous countries, cultures, and languages all over the non-west European sphere.

Please do not take my comment as a criticism of your explanation of 華人or 華族 nor of the customary use within China or Chinese speaking communities. But I for one would greatly appreciate if you would refrain from translating it as 'someone with a Chinese face.' I would much more appreciate the alternative translation 'Asian-looking.' Being called 'Chinese-looking' can be taken well; nevertheless it is still inaccurate ultimately.

I'm just asking for just a little political correctness, or simple courtesy, as it can become an emotional thing for many, many Asian-looking people who happen not to be Chinese either by country or ethnicity.

btw 'race' in 'yellow skinned race' or any 'race' should be avoided, I think, because it reminds us of WWII attrocities in a very, very disturbing way. I know you didn;t mean that though.I'm quite relieved at your statement. :D
There's just a little danger here. Just to give you an alternate theory, the lowlands of the latest glacial peaks were below the current sea level.

Please check the shallow underwaters region in yellow-green (http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/gazette/jpg/regions/fr_wp.jpg) where the majority of hunter-gatherer-fisher-farmers of the early neolithic period of East Asia are believed to have lived in. I'd say most Asians are descended from those lowland peoples, with a relatively small contribution from the highland peoples if I am allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction.

Yet I too admit it makes popular myth and story telling fun and easy to understand for the children. ;-) No harm done as long as we don't take it literally.
Wang, while I understand your frustration at least on the superficial level, I somehow get the feeling that you are being paranoid about the Chinese legitimacy. Chill out, and you'll do just fine. Building up your resources and resourcefulness. Taiwan will have every right to exist and flourish as any other country. But contending with Mainland China for legitimacy would be asking for trouble it seems. Also picking on faults beyond what is acceptable as two equal countries in the international community is not cool. I don't know how to say it another way. Why can't you be diplomatic about your neighbor's faults ? You shouldn't try to use it to your advantage.
I want to say thank for reminding me this things...haha english is not my mother tounge...and I rarely speak english :bluush:
you have corrected my mistake well hehe...^^ :cool:

I want to correct my words about all chinese-lookin people originated from China...but I am quiet sure that we came from same anchestor...wat do you think lexico??

[Grimmo]

What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way. :shock: :shock:

I've looked through many other japan-related web sites. Almost of all of them are dedicated to the same topic. But they say that chinese are from the south east or south west asia.

It seems that this web site is run by chinese, as I never see japanese themselves interested in this topic, or at least in expressing or propaganding their position.

Cheers.

[Grimmo]

@wang

u are Taiwanese arent u? I believe u know the term 華人or華族...these 2 words refer to Chinese..but we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....
we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China...but we just claim that they(Japanese,Korean) are came from the same anchestor with the Chinese who originated from China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world...it's have nothing to do with occupying other countries...

I said I saw some post from other forums, so this is just a copy and paste . In general, it looks to me that about half of japanese (or if I would be bold, around 60% of total japanese population)are somehow related to modern chinese and korean, but the rest seems to have a blood of Jomon/Ainu.

------------------------
Y chromosomal DNA variation in east Asian populations and its potential for inferring the peopling of Korea.

Kim W, Shin DJ, Harihara S, Kim YJ.

Department of Biology, Dankook University, Cheonan, Choong-Nam, Republic of Korea. wookkim@ansco.dankook.ac.kr

We have examined variations of five polymorphic loci (DYS287, DXYS5Y, SRY465, DYS19, and DXYS156Y) on the Y chromosome in samples from a total of 1260 males in eight ethnic groups of East Asia. We found four unique haplotypes constructed from three biallelic markers in these samples of East Asians. The Japanese population was characterized by a relatively high frequency of either the haplotype I-2b (-/Y2/T) or II-1 (+/Y1/C). These dual patterns of the distribution of Y chromosomes (I-2b/II-1) were also found in Korea, although they were present at relatively low frequencies. The haplotype II-1 was present in Northeast Asian populations (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Mongolians) only, except for one male from the Thai population among the Southeast Asian populations (Indonesians, Philippines, Thais, and Vietnamese). The Japanese were revealed to have the highest frequency of this haplotype (27.5%), followed by Koreans (2.9%), Mongolians (2.6%), and mainland Chinese (2.2%). In contrast, the frequency of the haplotype I-2b was found to be 17.1% in the Japanese, 9.5% in Indonesian, 6.3% in Korean, 3.8% in Vietnamese, and 2.7% in Thai samples. These findings suggested that the chromosomes of haplotype I-2b were likely derived from certain areas of Northeast Asia, the region closest to Southeast Asia. Phylogenetic analysis using the neighbor-joining tree also reflected a general distinction between Southeast and Northeast Asian populations. The phylogeny revealed a closer genetic relationship between Japanese and Koreans than to the other surveyed Asian populations. Based on the result of the dual patterns of the haplotype distribution, it is more likely that the population structure of Koreans may not have evolved from a single ancient population derived from Northeast Asians, but through dual infusions of Y chromosomes entering Korea from two different waves of East Asians.

PMID: 10721667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/deyap.gif
Fig. 2 Distribution of Y haplogroups in east Asia. Circle area is proportional to sample size, and the nine haplogroups are represented by different colors

The distribution of Y-chromosomal variation surveyed here reveals significant genetic differences among east Asian populations. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

Haplogroups C-RPS4Y711 and K-M9 were widely but not evenly distributed in the east Asian populations. Haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 appears to be the predominant northeast Asian haplogroup, with high frequencies in Mongolians (Buryats, 37.3%; Khalkhs, 42.9%) and Manchurians (22.7%; Table 2, Fig. 2). The moderate frequency of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 Y-chromosomes in Korea (15.0%) implies a genetic influence from northern populations of east Asia, starting possibly in east Siberia. Su and Jin (2001) suggest that the RPS4Y711-T chromosome originated in east Asia, probably in the southeast, and then expanded to the north (Siberia), based on the genetic diversity of Y-STR markers. However, the observed low Y-STR diversity of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 chromosomes in their surveys of Siberian and central Asian populations compared with east Asian populations could also be explained by a more northern (Mongolian and/or Siberian) origin followed by genetic drift resulting from small effective population sizes (Pakendorf et al. 2002). Recently, Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman (2003) have suggested that haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 expanded both through a southern route from Africa (e.g., India) to Oceania, and a northern one to Mongolia, Siberia, and eventually to northwest America. Further genetic surveys are required to test these hypotheses, with additional markers and more samples from diverse regions of Asia.
In contrast, M9-G Y-chromosomes show an opposing distribution to those carrying RPS4Y711-T in east Asia: they are more frequent in southern populations than in northern ones, showing a clinal variation from about 90% to 60% (Table 1). The haplogroups carrying the M9-G mutation and additional sublineages of M9-G in Korea appear to be at an intermediate frequency (81.9%) between southeast and northeast Asian populations. This result implies that the Korean population may be influenced by both the northeast and southeast Asian populations. Even within haplogroup O, the most frequent Korean STR haplotype (23-10-13 with the markers DYS390-DYS391-DYS393, 19% of haplogroup O; Table 3) is the most frequent in the Philippines (27%), whereas the second most frequent Korean haplotype (24-10-12, 16%) is the most frequent in Manchuria (45%). Thus, the distribution of haplogroups K-M9 and C-RPS4Y711 may reflect dispersals from both north and south. The settlement of each region at different times needs to be considered in order to understand the peopling of east Asia. Recently, Karafet et al. (2001) have noted that realistic explanations for the peopling of east Asia have to accommodate more complex multidirectional biological and cultural influences than earlier models have allowed.

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/depca.gif
Fig. 3 Principal components (PC) analysis of haplogroup frequencies in 11 east Asian populations (circle Koreans, open diamonds southeast populations, closed diamonds northeast populations)


In this study, the Koreans appear to be most closely related overall to the Manchurians among east Asian ethnic groups (Fig. 2), although a principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies reveals that they also cluster with populations from Yunnan and Vietnam (Fig. 3). The genetic relationship with Manchuria is consistent with the historical evidence that the Ancient Chosun, the first state-level society, was established in the region of southern Manchuria and later moved into the Pyongyang area of the northwestern Korean Peninsula. Based on archeological and anthropological data, the early Korean population possibly had a common origin in the northern regions of the Altai Mountains and Lake Baikal of southeastern Siberia (Han 1995; Choi and Rhee 2001). Recent studies of mtDNA (Kivisild et al. 2002) and the Y-chromosome (Karafet et al. 2001) have also indicated that Koreans possess lineages from both the southern and the northern haplogroup complex. In conclusion, the peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process with an initial northern Asian settlement followed by several migrations, mostly from southern-to-northern China.

[Grimmo]

This one I saw over and over again and posted on numerous other japan related sites.

------------------------
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v77n3/42338/42338.h tml
Y-Chromosome Evidence of Southern Origin of the East AsianSpecific Haplogroup O3-M122

Hong Shi,1,2,6 Yong-li Dong,3 Bo Wen,4 Chun-Jie Xiao,3 Peter A. Underhill,5 Pei-dong Shen,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,7 Li Jin,4,7 and Bing Su1,2,7

1Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology and 2Kunming Primate Research Center, Chinese Academy of Sciences, 3Key Laboratory of Bio-resources Conservation and Utilization and Human Genetics Center, Yunnan University, Kunming, China; 4State Key Laboratory of Genetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai; 5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA; 6Graduate School of Chinese Academy of Science, Beijing; and 7Center for Genome Information, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati

Received March 14, 2005; accepted for publication June 29, 2005; electronically published July 14, 2005.

The prehistoric peopling of East Asia by modern humans remains controversial with respect to early population migrations. Here, we present a systematic sampling and genetic screening of an East Asianspecific Y-chromosome haplogroup (O3-M122) in 2,332 individuals from diverse East Asian populations. Our results indicate that the O3-M122 lineage is dominant in East Asian populations, with an average frequency of 44.3%. The microsatellite data show that the O3-M122 haplotypes in southern East Asia are more diverse than those in northern East Asia, suggesting a southern origin of the O3-M122 mutation. It was estimated that the early northward migration of the O3-M122 lineages in East Asia occurred 25,00030,000 years ago, consistent with the fossil records of modern humans in East Asia.

It should be noted that when we discuss the origin and migration of human populations, a time periodwhich part of the human-population history is under scrutinyshould be clearly defined. Recent population movement and admixture could wipe out or significantly diminish the original genetic signatures of early population movements. Therefore, to extract information for modern human origin and early population movements that happened before the Neolithic period, population-specific markers, such as SNP markers on the Y chromosome, become useful for the study of regional population movements (Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). At the same time, recent gene flow between distantly related populations can also be identified and removed in an analysis based on population specificity. Hence, in this sense, extreme caution should be exercised in selection of genetic markers in the study of the origin and early migrations of a continental population, because genetic variations introduced through recent gene flow could create false interpretations, as in two previous studies (Ding et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001). The same logic also applies to the selection of populations; ethnic populations with long histories of inhabitation in a region are always preferred for inferring early population histories.

In East Asian populations, there are three regionally distributed (East Asianspecific) Y-chromosome haplogroups under the M175 lineage (fig. 1)O3-M122, O2-M95, and O1-M119together accounting for 57% of the Y chromosomes in East Asian populations (table 1). The O3-M122 has the highest frequency (41.8% on average) (fig. 2) in East Asians, especially in Han Chinese (52.06% in northern Han and 53.72% in southern Han) (table 1), and it is absent outside East Asia. Previous studies have shown that O2-M95 and O1-M119 are prevalent in SEAS and probably originated in the south (Su et al. 1999, 2000a; Wen et al. 2004a, 2004b) (table 1). Therefore, tracing the origin of O3-M122 became critical for a full understanding of the origin and early migrations of modern East Asians.


http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v77n3/42338/fg2.jpg
The frequency distribution of the O3-M122 haplotypes in East Asian and other continental populations. The data used were from published studies (Su et al. 1999, 2000a, 2000b; Qian et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Lell et al. 2002; Jin et al. 2003; Wen et al. 2004a)

[Martialartsnovice]

Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group. Europe's population is thought to have originated from groups of nomadic tribes that roam from the Central Asian Steppes, and the Balkans.

I know that when kanji, and katakana are used, they are a altered form of Chinese scripts. These I know developed into the characters today during Japans years in the centuries prior to the spread of Western Europes colonialization of the Indonesian archipleago and then Britains colonial holding of India, etc. These characters are faintlyu similar to their chinese counterparts.

Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.

The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.

Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia. That when the ancestors of the modern chinese started settling the Yangtze river valley and other river valleys, they each started to develop dialects that today have lead to the creation of Korean, Japanese, Chinese and other spoken languages in Southeast Asia.

[bossel]

Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group.
That's no question. All human populations share the same root. All mongoloid populations share another root, somewhat closer to modern times. The problem is to point out the last common pre-Japanese ancestral population (& who it is shared with).

Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.
Polish is slavic, actually.

The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.
Modern languages are most often similar yet different from their ancient predecessors. I don't really understand what you mean by "based on regional dialects or archaic tongues".

Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia.
Doubtful. That there is a common root is obvious, but that this root still exists is improbable, since languages evolve over time (if they don't evolve, they're dead).

[Martialartsnovice]

Thanks for the info

Question: What languages officially are recognized as dead or outdated, how are people today able to learn them. I know Latin has played a part in the formation of modern Spanish, Italian, French. Ancient Greek evolved into the modern greek spoken today.

IS it possible though to piece together a shall we say a Asian Latin or Greek that could be like the Rosetta stone in translating ancient Egyptian.

[bossel]

Question: What languages officially are recognized as dead or outdated, how are people today able to learn them. I know Latin has played a part in the formation of modern Spanish, Italian, French. Ancient Greek evolved into the modern greek spoken today.

IS it possible though to piece together a shall we say a Asian Latin or Greek that could be like the Rosetta stone in translating ancient Egyptian.
Dead languages are usually defined as having no native speakers anymore. There is some ambiguity, though: Eg. Latin as such is dead, but has never died. As you said, it evolved into several other languages. & what we now learn as Latin, is only a snapshot of that language at a certain time/era.

As we are not sure about every detail of Latin pronunciation, we know even less about ancient Egyptian. We know the consonants from their hieroglyphs, but almost no vowls.

Latin & Egyptian are fairly easy to reconstruct in comparison to other "dead" languages which don't have a written record, but reconstruction is possible even for a language like Proto-Indo-European. What we then have is no more than an educated guess, though. The same should be possible for Japanese. But I don't know how reliable the guess-work for proto-Japanese is.

I just googled for proto-Japanese & found some 800 results. I suppose, you should do the same & judge for yourself whether you find the proposed ideas convincing.

[Grimmo]

Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group. Europe's population is thought to have originated from groups of nomadic tribes that roam from the Central Asian Steppes, and the Balkans.

I know that when kanji, and katakana are used, they are a altered form of Chinese scripts. These I know developed into the characters today during Japans years in the centuries prior to the spread of Western Europes colonialization of the Indonesian archipleago and then Britains colonial holding of India, etc. These characters are faintlyu similar to their chinese counterparts.

Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.

The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.

Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia. That when the ancestors of the modern chinese started settling the Yangtze river valley and other river valleys, they each started to develop dialects that today have lead to the creation of Korean, Japanese, Chinese and other spoken languages in Southeast Asia.

Ethnically, japanese are quiet distinct according to the genetics study.

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/china3.png

Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP =Japanese. Han=Chinese

Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian populations.

[hungarian_tom]

You were discussing about European roots of Japanese. And also mentioned the horserider ancestry. You mentioned most of the European nations as possible relation to the ancient Aynu people. However you've forgotten one. The Hungarians.

No, I do not want to say that Hungarians are relatives to the Japanese. If you go into Hungary you see only few faces with Asian motives. During the Hungarian's history in Europe, which is officially dating back to 896 AD, the Hungarian population was quite totally diversified with the around living nations. So, it is now hard to distinguish of the other nations in Central Europe.

If you search after Hungarian ancient history, most of the websites and the "official books" will claim that Hungarian people are belonging to Ugro-Finnic people, due to their language.

However the ancient Hungarian myths and legends, and ancient scriptures about Hungarian's origin tell a different story and only partially tolerate any Ugro-finnic relation. During the Communism the publications about this issue were banned, and all the autors and scientists who researched this field were proclaimed as dilettant and fantasying.

Yes. Some of the theories are really ridiculous. However if you deepen yourself into the ancient Hungarians history, and read lots of publications fianlly you can reach a conclusion that Hungarian people surely had relations to the Turkic people at least to the Hun (Xiong nu) people. I do not even mention the large amount of turkish words in the hungarian language, which one are officially proclaimed only as "borrowed" or "argued about it's origin."

You have lead this topic to very scientific level with these genetic proving. I do not understand much genetics, but eeven though I've read about that Japanese professor, Hideo Matsumoto (maybe I write it wrongly), that one tried to make the genetic map of the world.

He has also taken some samples (thousands) from Hungary in the 80's ? and finally has reached such a conclusion that in the largest amount of the Asian character in Europe has occured in the Carpathian Basin which one can be considered as real hystorical Hungary.

Another thing. If a Hungarian explorer or scientist is arriving to Central Asia or East Asia, and reveals his identity the original inhabitants of that region greet the and treat them more hospitally and warmly than the other Europeans.

Why? I've read not only once that in those peoples memory and legends-stories is existing a nation, which one once lived with them. Probably were even relatives to each other. But that nation in their memories took itself up and moved towards the far-far west and became part of Europe.

Whose are those people? The Turkish the Ukrainans, Lattvian?
Not really...

エガミ　ナミオ;EGAMI Namio;江上　波夫(著)


「匈奴・フン同族論」
#The Hypothesis concerning the Ethnic equality between the Xiongnu and the Huns.
『民族研究所紀要』 1. 東京:民族研究所 1944/8/15. pp.71-117(+5).
歴史考古：前近代 北アジア一般


アンザイ　カズオ;ANZAI Kazuo;安斉　和雄(訳);アンビス，ルイ;HAMBIS, Louis(著)


『アッチラとフン族』
Attila et Huns.
(文庫クセジュ　536) 東京:白水社 1973. 162p.
歴史考古：前近代 中央アジア一般

シゲマツ　シュンショウ;SHIGEMATSU Shunsho^;重松　俊章(著)


「エフタルの西遷に就いて(1)-(2)」
The Western Migration of the Hephthalites.
『歴史地理』 28:3,5. 東京:日本歴史地理研究会 1916/9/1,11/1. pp.43-46,139-153.
歴史考古：前近代 西トルキスタン


トクナガ　ヤスモト;TOKUNAGA Yasumoto;徳永　康元(著)


「ハンガリーにおける近年のフン研究について」
Research on the Huns in Hungary.
『民族学研究』 14:3. 東京:日本民族学協会 1950/2/15. p.84.
総記：学界動向 コーカサス・タタール


I cannot read Japanese. But probably there are some answers in those books.

But if those contradict against what I think, what about the recent studies in China-Turkestan about the similarity between Uyghur and Hungarian music? Motives of art? Similar stories?

I still do not know enough about it. I know that I know very little. But I decided to write this forum, even though it's about the origin of Japanese.

[hungarian_tom]

By the time I found sg. interresting. I was overwhelmed! But I do not take this as "Holy Word"

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2000.6420145.x

[Mitsuo]

I've heard that the japanese were mixed between Chinese, Russian, and Mongolian. I don't know.

[TuskCracker]

Origin Of Japanese People

Is their consensus on the answer. Their is too much disagreement to figure this out !

[Minty]

According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
(Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
Tamil in India are mixed.
The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.
I got these informations from some books.
Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.
Interesting!

Well that the ear wax theories can’t be right. In my family my mother my brother and myself have wet ear waxes, while my father, my other brother and my sister have dry ear waxes. There is no record whatsoever in our family tree that we have been mixed with Japanese or Native Americans. We are 100 percent Han.

for the ear wax idea, it is a physicla change to suit the enviroment of the persons surroundings

Most of our families members have lived together and some still live together for a long period of time, but the ear waxes differs among my family. After we migrated to other country/ies, our two different kinds of ear waxes among my family remained the same since birth.

[Dharma]

It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.
BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.
A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ .

Here I listed two useful websites, you may want to have a look:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm
http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html

Actually I noticed that the Japanese traditions and costumes have a lot of similarities with Chinese Han Dynasty (e.g. tatami, low table) and Tang Dynasty Period.

[Dharma]

What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way. :shock: :shock:

I just did an essay on "identity politics". What's your definition of claim? On Taiwan issues, the chairman of Taiwan National party just gave a speech in my Uni and I quite agree with his opinion: let's just remain current status, and when democracy from both reach an equilibrium level, unification is possible. The whole world is becoming smaller and smaller and I really like this word "Earth Village". Peopel need to learn to avoid extreme self-identification.We are not the most powerful being and there's no ownership to land or river. Where are these people who once created a brilliant page of their own nation? Ashes to ashes.....

[pipokun]

How loud voice was from PRC embassy or government for his visit?
Taiwanese officials' visit has been still sensitive matter here.

By the way, this is what Jiang Zemin addressed his speech at my uni in 1998.
中国は世界最大の発展途上国であり、いまなお社会主義 の初級段階にあります。
PRC is the largest developping country in the world, and still the first stage of socialism.
Hope that the stage advances to 1.01 beta or something now.

[Grimmo]

Here I listed two useful websites, you may want to have a look:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm
http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html
Actually I noticed that the Japanese traditions and costumes have a lot of similarities with Chinese Han Dynasty (e.g. tatami, low table) and Tang Dynasty Period.

Han chinese is originated from south east and south west asia.

http://www.uglychinese.org/Chinese_migration.jpg

The following figures came from National Science Museum at Ueno/Shinjuku, and supposed to reflect how the mainstream scientist (inland/overseas) sees the origin of japanese people.

http://www.kahaku.go.jp/special/past/japanese/ipix/5/img/5_26_03.jpg

Mainstream hypothesis of migrations into the Japanese islands from Sibelia and Korea. Red=Jomon/Ainu (native islanders), Yellow=Yayoi (korean/chinese)

http://www.kahaku.go.jp/special/past/japanese/ipix/5/img/5_17_03.jpg

It is known that japanese shares about 60% of genes from continents, and 40% from Ainu/Jomon, proto-caucasoid.

[Grimmo]

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ull/19/10/1737
Free Online Journal Edition

The Emerging Limbs and Twigs of the East Asian mtDNA Tree
Toomas Kivisild*, Helle-Viivi Tolk*, Jüri Parik*, Yiming Wang, Surinder S. Papiha, Hans-Jürgen Bandelt and Richard Villems*

*Department of Evolutionary Biology, Tartu University and Estonian Biocentre, Estonia;
Department of Medical Genetics, Sun Yat-Sen University of Medical Sciences, People's Republic of China;
Department of Human Genetics, University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne;
Department of Mathematics, University of Hamburg, Germany

We determine the phylogenetic backbone of the East Asian mtDNA tree by using published complete mtDNA sequences and assessing both coding and control region variation in 69 Han individuals from southern China. This approach assists in the interpretation of published mtDNA data on East Asians based on either control region sequencing or restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) typing. Our results confirm that the East Asian mtDNA pool is locally region-specific and completely covered by the two superhaplogroups M and N. The phylogenetic partitioning based on complete mtDNA sequences corroborates existing RFLP-based classification of Asian mtDNA types and supports the distinction between northern and southern populations. We describe new haplogroups M7, M8, M9, N9, and R9 and demonstrate by way of example that hierarchically subdividing the major branches of the mtDNA tree aids in recognizing the settlement processes of any particular region in appropriate time scale. This is illustrated by the characteristically southern distribution of haplogroup M7 in East Asia, whereas its daughter-groups, M7a and M7b2, specific for Japanese and Korean populations, testify to a presumably (pre-)Jomon contribution to the modern mtDNA pool of Japan.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/vol19/issue10/images/medium/mbev-19-10-16-f03.gif
Fig. 3.―Phylogenetic reconstruction and geographic distribution of haplogroup M7. a, A network of HVS-I haplotypes, which comprises the superposition of the most parsimonious trees for the three postulated sets of M7a, M7b, and M7c sequences. The mutations along the bold links were only analyzed for a few Japanese sequences (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ) and―toward the root of M―for some Chinese sequences (this study): the corresponding individuals with (partial) coding region information are boxed. Numbers along links indicate transitions; recurrent HVS-I mutations are underlined. The age of mtDNA clades is calculated (along the tree indicated by unbroken lines) according to Forster et al. (1996) , with standard errors estimated as in Saillard et al. (2000) . Sample codes (and sources): AI―Ainu (Horai et al. 1996 ); CH―Chinese (Betty et al. 1996 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ; Qian et al. 2001 ; Yao et al. 2002 ; this study); IN―Indonesian (Redd and Stoneking 1999 ); JP―Japanese (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Horai et al. 1996 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ; Seo et al. 1998 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ); KN―Koreans (Horai et al. 1996 ; Lee et al. 1997 ; Pfeiffer et al. 1998 ); MA―Mansi (Derbeneva et al. 2002 ); MJ―Majuro (Sykes et al. 1995 ); MO―Mongolians (Kolman, Sambuughin, and Bermingham 1996 ); PH―Philippines (Sykes et al. 1995 ; Maca-Meyer 2001 ); RY―Ryukyuans (Horai et al. 1996 ); SB―Sabah (Sykes et al. 1995 ); TW―Taiwanese Han (Horai et al. 1996 ) and aboriginals (Melton et al. 1998 ); UI―Uighur (Comas et al. 1998 ; Yao et al. 2000 ); YA―Yakuts (Derenko and Shields 1997 ). b, Frequencies of the subgroups of M7 in Asian populations are inferred from the preceding HVS-I as well as partial HVS-I and RFLP data (VN―Vietnamese: Ballinger et al. 1992 ; Lum et al. 1998 ). Mainland Han Chinese are denoted as follows: GD―Guangdong, LN―Liaoning, QD―Qingdao, WH―Wuhan, XJ―Xinjiang, YU―Yunnan (Yao et al. 2002 ), SH―Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999 ). The number of M7 sequences in relation to the sample size is indicated under each pie slice proportional to the M7 frequency

--------------------------------------
So chinese is much closer to Vietnam, and Thailand, and Nepal in terms of genes.

Some tiny portions of SK shares Jomon and Ainu bloods, (YAP+: 2% of SK, mtDNA markers: 5% of SK). This msut be due to the recent colonization of korea, and possibly long-time trade relationship.

[Grimmo]

According to genetic results, apporx. 60% or more Japanese are of continental origin (korean/chinese). However, there are significant jomon/ainu bloods in them.

I think on average, japanese appearances are nowhere in east asian.
My guess is due to the the distorsion introduced by jomon/ainu bloods, and their unique facial structures. I guess, there must be some japanese who could be almost deemed as chinese or korean, but there are japanese who is completely outside the chinese/korean facial features.

---------------
http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/brown99.pdf

The first modern East Asians ?:
another look at Upper Cave
101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
Peter Brown
Department of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology
University of New England
Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/minatogawa.gif

MINATOGAWA 1
The Minatogawa 1 male skeleton was found in 1970 at the
Minatogawa limestone quarry on Okinawa (Suzuki and Hanihara 1982).
111
The first modern East Asians?: another look at Upper Cave 101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
Three female skeletons, in varying states of preservation, and assorted
other fragments were also recovered. The Minatogawa skeletons have
been described in detail in Suzuki and Hanihara (1982), with Suzuki
(1982) describing the crania. Additional comparative information can
be found in Baba and Nerasaki (1991). The Minatogawa 1 cranium is
not as complete as Liujiang and Upper Cave 101, particularly in the
basi-cranium, facial skeleton and temporal regions. Several of the
dimensions used in the analysis to follow had to be estimated.
Unlike Liujiang and Upper Cave there does not appear to have
been any concern over the reliability of the dating of Minatogawa.
Radiocarbon dates of 18,250 ±650 to 16,600 ±300 years BP were obtained
from charcoal inside the fissure (Kobayashi et al. 1974). Fluorine content
of human and non-human bones within the site suggested that they
were contemporaneous (Matsu’ura 1982). Assuming that the site was
well stratified, that the carbon dates do bracket the skeletons and that
the skeletons were not intrusive, then Minatogawa remains do have a
strong claim to being the earliest modern human skeletons in East Asia.

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/minatogawaPC.gif

Overall, the scatter plot of Functions 1 and 2 indicate the relative morphological
similarity of the modern and Neolithic Chinese groups, while the
modern Japanese are closer to a wider range of East Asian and Native
American populations. Plots of the total group dispersions associated
with Figure 3 revealed the large degree of overlap between the Neolithic
and modern Chinese and between the modern Japanese, Anyang,
Hainan and Native American groups. The Eskimo and Ainu were more
distinct, as were both of the Australian Aboriginal groups.

Please note that northern and southern japanese are in the middle point between N/S chinese and ainu/jomon/minatogawa. This represents the japanese population
divided into the two completely diverged skull/facial structures.

[Grimmo]

I presume that on the northernmost japan (aomori, akita, etc), people's face can have many features like ainu, jomon, minatogawa, but no chinese like facial structures could be expected, because of the genetic distributions of YAP+ and DE-YAP and some mtDNA markers. The rest will be defined as yayoi coming from the continent through korean peninsula.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/londonross/facetype2.gif
The results show the average faces of east asian (and some other related)populations.

Please notice that N/S japanese faces are slightly different from N/S chinese. I think this is due to the ainu/jomon population and/or mixtures of both natives and continentals.

Northern chinese are independent of modern yayoi japanese facial structures. Southern chinese are somewhat similar, so the southern chinese tribes may have immigrated to japan through korea 2kya, which now comprises the 60% of total japanese population.

Please note the ainu/jomon (native japanese islanders) which should represent roughly 40% or less of total japanese population (by the results of genetic analysis) shows dissimilarity to the Northern/Southern chinese.

[Grimmo]

Method of matching up the morphological data with samples:
So what does Ainu and Northern Japanese really look like?
Superficially, we have to consider the representative of the population rather than averaging out. I think the person from the noble family seems to be the most suitable sample for dissecting the phenotype of northern japanese. This is due to the traditional japanese system that samurai or any noble class belong to the lords so the number of years these lords govern means that the samurai under the hierachy has lived with them and rather stay in one place for the long period of time.
Traditional samurai (bushi) and aristocrat (kuge) are hereditary. It's not like your boss fussing around his people, and throw them away. They have very limited capability to even fire off their workers. Except a few dictators like Oda Nobunaga, and Taira no masakado, local lords have to take care of people as much as they do to their family. You can verify this by looking at the cheap furnitures of the lords, if you ever had a chance to visit shiro au japon. In cases the noumin (farmers) complain to the central authority (Tenno or Shogun), they themselves be replaced with other guys. Attachment of those nobles to their lands are unusual by western standard, and can only be understood in cultural context.
From heian to edo period, japanese feudal systems impose severe restrictions (shouen seido to baku han taisei) on moving of people. People belongs to shou (or han), and are not allowed to move to other prefectures. This is why japanese calls their society, mura (village). They don't accept outsiders, for if they do it, they will be punished by the highest authority to illegally admit people from the outside. This static nature of society seems to be of particular importance, as this seems to be a much powerful tool to separate the population.
Taking samples based on locations are justified given that northern han and southern han chinese are sometimes merely classified by their birthplaces, although researchers claim that they do more surveys, but in countries other than japan, you have to make quiet a strong assumption. How about Caviella at Stanford? He's using this method on northern and southern han chinese population. So as long as we stick to the old Japanese population, our method does not go beyond the conventional research method. You just need to take the oldest pictures of the oldest family people, then I think the method is accurate enough.
The figure above of the National Science Museum at Ueno shows the predicted distributions of modern japane ethno-demography. We see the strong support for assuming that eastern, north eastern, northern japan, and southern japan has the higher frequency of habitation of native islanders. The comparison of skulls with, say, central japanese may reveal some morphological differences between each of japanese populations.
I think some renowned or famous guys in this field like Philip Deitiker used more radical approaches for classifying people by looks, and that's similar to mainstream genealogist. I used more conventional approaches than these people. I used the Brown's resutls (posted above) based on Howell's approaches and tried to match up the results with some historical figures who has more information known than J-POP or K-POP singers who only has the birthplace on their profiles. These samurai has a history of some up to 1000 years or more , and this makes me feel that they are representative of both ainu/jomon and yayoi japanese.
Northern Japanese
Mutsu Munemitsu, A minister of Foreign Affair
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/mutsu.jpg
He is nothern japanese from the noblest family in northern japan.
His family tree is from Hiraizumi-Fujiwara clan (Emishi related Ainu).
His ancestor includes some figures like Date Masamune, and the origin of family dates back more than 1000 years ago,
The same person
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Munemitsu_Mutsu_2.jpg
Iinuma Sadakichi (1853-1931) born in Aizu-han
http://img5.picsplace.to/img5/16/iinuma.jpg
Eastern Japanese
Katsu Kaishu, Admiral of the Shogun's fleet
http://www.cgj.org/150th/jpegs/kanrin8.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Kaishu_Katsu_2.jpg

[Grimmo]

Now, having said about the nothern japanese (northern can be replaced by northernmost). I would like to mention about the southernmost japanese.
They are known to be related to Ryukyuan/Okinawan, and their phenotypes seem to be fairly ainu, but they seem to be mixed with continentals, so they show more varieties. Prime Minister Koizumi's family comes from the noble family in Kagoshima-ken, and he belongs to this class of people.

Togo Heihachiro, An admiral, A national hero in Japan-Russo War (no involvement in WWII)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Togo%28Europe%29.JPG

Southernmost Japanese. His ancestor was a neighbor of koizumi's.

Togo Heihachiro in his 58 years old
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/ADMIRALTOGO.JPG
Okubo Toshimichi, Revolutionary, A founder of Meiji Government
Born in Kagoshima, Southernmost Japan
http://www.ndl.go.jp/portrait/260_260/427-53/001/0005_r.jpg

He is the suppoter of domestic development and resisted the
"Conquering of Korea".

He suppressed regional rebellions by the former
samurai class that ended with the Satsuma Rebellion,
but was assassinated by a former samurai in 1878.

His background is middle-ranking samurai, and his phenotype
seems to be from the relation to Ryukyuan, native islanders.

The same person
http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/okubo.gif

[Grimmo]

http://www.geocities.com/londonross1/china3.png
Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP =Japanese. Han=Chinese

Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian population.

[Grimmo]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/AinuGroup.JPG
Group of Ainu people, 1904 photograph, taken in Hokkaido Japan
From Wikipedia "Ainu People"
Due to intermarriage with the Japanese and ongoing absorption into the predominant culture, few living Ainu settlements exist. Many "authentic Ainu villages" advertised in Hokkaido are simply tourist attractions.
If you search the Ainu people over the Web, you will most likely see the fake Ainu people's picture. These are fake japanese pretending to be ainu for tourism
http://www.arco-iris.com/George/images/ainu_pair.jpg
http://library.osu.edu/sites/rarebooks/japan/images/full/supplement/16.jpg

[Grimmo]

Komura Jutaro (Southern Japanese), Minister of Foreign Affair, Harvard Graduate
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/komura.jpg

Akiyama Saneyuki (Southern Japanese), Hero in Japan-Russo War, Vice-Admiral, died in 1918
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/saneyuki_01.jpg

Akiyama Yoshifuru (Southern Japanese), General, The founder of Japanese Cavalry
http://www.jacar.go.jp/img3/yoshifuru_03.jpg

[Grimmo]

Average (not necessarily typical) Korean face
http://www.andongkim.com/articles/2005/08/media/koreanfaceavg16.jpg
http://www.andongkim.com/articles/20...koreanface.htm
Korean scientists allegedly produced what they call, "the average Korean face". The Korean Institute of Science and Technology information (KISTI) working together with the Catholic Institute for Applied Anatomy made computer tomographic scans of Koreans last year and with the aid of a supercomputer produced a "digital Korean" -- a 3-D video of the average Korean's physical structure.
Do you see much differences from the northen japanese?
Northern han CHINESE face.
http://www.angle.org/anglonline/?req...e=05&page=0393
Perception of Facial Esthetics by Native Chinese Participants by Using Manipulated Digital Imagery Techniques
Sample population
The Chinese rater group consisted of 85 native Chinese participants from Beijing. Of these raters, 38 were women, and 47 were men (45% women and 55% men). Their mean ag