3 Japanese Hostages in Iraq - HUGE news in Japan

[Mandylion]

Three Japanese nationals are being held hostage in Iraq by a group called the "Mujahedeen Brigades." The group is demanding the Japanese SDF forces leave Iraq within three days or they will kill the hostages.

From Mainichi Daily News (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20040408p2a00m0fp012009c.html)

Qatar-based satellite broadcaster Aljazeera said Thursday that three Japanese nationals have been taken hostage by a group in Iraq.

The group, who calls itself "Mujahedeen Brigades" in English, threatens to kill the three Japanese unless Japan's Self Defense Forces (SDF) leave the country within three days, Aljazeera said.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda said, "We are sending the SDF for (non-military) humanitarian reconstruction efforts, and therefore there is no reason to call them back."

Foreign Minister Yoriko Kawaguchi said that Japan would do its utmost to ensure the release of the three.

"You have two choices. To withdraw the troops, or we will burn them alive," the group, Saraya al-Mujahedeen, said in a letter sent to Aljazeera.

In Tokyo, shocked government and police officials are investigating details through the Japanese Embassy in Baghdad.

"The information we have is awfully vague. We assumed that if any Japanese was to be attacked, it would be SDF troops," a Foreign Ministry official said on condition of anonymity. "But we face a worst scenario with civilians being taken hostage. At this stage, we don't understand what kind of group detained them."

This is a huge story in Japan (and rightly so). It has even made the morning tabloid news, usual reserved for gossip and love stories. I have seen the TV footage and I assure you the hostages are very real and not some stunt.

The political and social fall-out is nothing short of astounding. If Koizumi sticks to his guns and the hostages are killed, the SDF will not touch foreign soil again for another 20 years IMHO. If they pull the SDF out, any terrorist group with half a brain will know they can get the Japanese government to cave in by attacking the weakest and most helpless of its citizens (in this case humanitarian workers).

If the three die, I expect we could see only the second handover in political power in Japan since the end of WWII. If they pull out, Japan will continue to be on the outskirts of world power politics and a soft target for terrorists. I don't see how this could do anything but make Japan even more xenophobic and warry of any foreign person not blonde and blue-eyed.

And the deadline of three days? It took the SDF weeks to get set up even after getting to Iraq. How are they going to get out in three days? The demands are so strict it will me near impossible to meet them if that is what the government decides to do.

I don't know about you all, but the only solution I see is to try and bust them out. But then the group expects that (unreasonable time limit) and will be ready - if they can find them.

This is going to be a very nasty lesson for Japan about the current way IR is played.

[Keiichi]

I saw the news an hour ago. Quite unfortunate, like bullies picking on a weakling. I suppose they could bust them out, but how would they do that? They certainly won't be able to do it themselves that's for sure. I think they'll have to pull out...

[Mandylion]

They would need the US to do it for them and who knows how high on the to-do list that would be...I guess it all comes back to the should you negotiate with terrorist debate? Experience says no, but I don't know how that would go down with the Japanese public...

[Maciamo]

More from the BBC : Iraq plunges into hostage drama (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3611397.stm)

Elsewhere, one Canadian and an Arab Israeli were also kidnapped, but seven abducted South Koreans were released.

That is a good proof that they were aiming at Japanese, mistook the Koreans for Japanese, then released them.

The three are believed to be Noriaki Imai, an 18-year-old male volunteer worker, Nahoko Takato, 34, a female volunteer worker, and Soichiro Koriyama, a 32-year-old male freelance photojournalist.

18 year-old volunteer ? Frankly, could their be any worst target ? :(

It seems clear to me that they are targetting civilians of the US and UK allies, as they know most of them have joined the war half-reluctantly and that kind of events could easily shift the balance. That is why they bombed the train in Madrid, and it worked. Now it's Japan, then who ? They haven't attacked the US and UK (yet) because they know it won't deter them and risk even more retaliations.

Tokyo has said it is firm in its resolve to keep troops in Iraq despite the threat.

Here is the first answer to Mandylion's question.

[Mandylion]

Ah, they say that now, but wait until things get down to the wire. Does Tokyo really think the Japanese public is willing to take the murder of three non-SDF folks for a cause they really didn't support to begin with?

Of course things could go the other way and this might serve to strengthen the resolve of the public to support future missions. It all comes down to how NHK spins this one.

[Jean-Francois]

Osama Bin Laden is no ordinary hot-headed terrorist. Indeed, despite the heinous crimes he commits, Osama Bin Laden possesses all the elements of an outstanding commander. He is intrepid, mercurial, calculative and manipulative. And most important, he knows his enemies very well. He is using the mechanics of a democracy to win this war.

The scene of the mulilated American bodies dragged along on the Iraqi streets is just too heart-broken for the Americans to watch. Terrorist attacks in the lands of the American allies caused second-thoughts even in the hearts of pro-American habitants.

The killing of the Japanese hostages will arouse anti-American feelings among the Japanese public who will put pressure on their government to back out from the war against terrorists. Even though it's not up to the J-government to back out, the disapproval form J-people is enough to destroy the morale of SDF and causes conflicts among the two governments.

Osama Bin Laden is using the voting power of the Americans and the citizens of its allies to win this war.

In The Art of War, Sun Tze said:
The strategy of superior commanders is to thwart a large organization so that they cannot grow and to inspire awe among their opponents so that they do not unify.

[Mandylion]

Couldn't the opposite happen? You piss a group of people off enough and they are known to do stupid things to get back at you. Countries with long histories of dealing with terrorists tend to take very violent paths to secure their safety. I think it would take a lot for Japan to begin hitting back - perhaps an attack or two within Japan itself - but don't sell the Japanese public short by making them out to be pushovers.

[Jean-Francois]

The opposite might happen but it is not likely. We will see.

Has the Al Qaeda network ever attacked the land of France and Japan? They are just threatening them from being as dedicated to the war as the Americans. When Americans asked the other allies to fight with them, most countries hesitated except England.

However, if US is winning the war, Al Qaeda may decide to go down together and attacks as many westernized countries as they can.

Great leaders know how to deal with the conflict of interests, whom they can piss off and how far they can go. We are dealing with one dangerous man with a brilliant mind here. :shock:

[senseiman]

There isn't any evidence that Osama Bin Ladin or Al Qauida had anything to do with the abduction of the Japanese. Its some new group nobody has ever heard of. Maybe they are related to Al Qauida in some way but nobody knows.

I don't think the Koreans were mistaken for Japanese. After all, Korea has more troops in Iraq than Japan so you would think they would have made even better victims than the Japanese from the kidnappers point of view. I think it may have been a different group that kidnapped the Koreans.

Feel sorry for the victims though, especially the 18 year old. Barely out of high school and there he is in Iraq with some nutball threatening to burn him alive in 3 days.

As for the SDF getting out of Iraq in 3 days, I think the hostage-takers were only demanding that Japan announce its withdrawal from Iraq within 3 days, with the withdrawal itself to take however long it takes.

[Mandylion]

The road to hell is paved with (good) intentions.

If that is all they want, what is stopping the SDF from saying it will leave, getting the three people back, and then staying? You might be right Senseiman, newspapers often leave out little things like that. But then what do the terrorists do? Hold on to the hostages for the three or so weeks it would take for a full withdraw knowing that people are out looking to catch them all that time? Far too risky. I think they meant three days, all or nothing.

[neko_girl22]

apparently these volunteers were documenting the damage US troops have made in Iraq... so it's quite ironic they pick up these guys instead of some of the SDF. Anyway my heart goes out to the families, especially for the 18 year old :(

[thomas]

Just read the papers, quite shocking indeed. But no bolt out of the blue. You cannot send troops into a conflict area and insist on their "humanitarian mission" a la Koizumi & consorts.

I also agree with Senseiman that this groups are most likely genuine Iraqi resistance movements with no connection to the so-called "Al-Qaida" movement.

[senseiman]

The road to hell is paved with (good) intentions.

If that is all they want, what is stopping the SDF from saying it will leave, getting the three people back, and then staying? You might be right Senseiman, newspapers often leave out little things like that. But then what do the terrorists do? Hold on to the hostages for the three or so weeks it would take for a full withdraw knowing that people are out looking to catch them all that time? Far too risky. I think they meant three days, all or nothing.

Thats an interesting point, though the Reuters report I read mentioned that they were calling on Japan to announce its withdrawal within 3 days. If you think about it I don't think it would be particularly hard for them to hide the 3 people for a month or so. After all, they had thousands of troops scouring the country for Saddam and he managed to hide out for over 8 months and about a dozen of his top guys are still out there. Plus all the coalition troops are busy fighting the insurgency at the moment and won't have as many resources to devote to a manhunt. Some of the cities like Najaf, Kut and Fallujah are completely out of the control of the Americans.

Besides, if you think about it once they make the announcement the political damage will have been done whether they decide to stay or not. Thats whats really at stake, the government not being seen to cave in to terrorist demands.

[emperor]

:( God richly blessed that three innocent Japanese!! and cursed Mujahedeen Brigades!!! Does anyone think Koizumi Administration will make a withdrawal from Mesopotamia region? This is really a big trouble for Koizumi and Bush~~~

[alaba]

Breaking News from AlJazeera

Iraqi group to free Japanese hostages

Saturday 10 April 2004, 22:22 Makka Time, 19:22 GMT

The group has threatened to burn the hostages alive


An Iraqi group which said it kidnapped three Japanese hostages has said it will release them within 24 hours, abandoning a threat to kill them.

In a fax sent to Aljazeera on Saturday, the group, Saraya al-Mujahidin said they will release the hostages in response to a call from Iraq's Muslim Clerics Association.

The group also called on the Japanese people to pressure their government to withdraw its troops from Iraq.

Aljazeera on Thursday aired a tape from the group showing the hostages in capture. The group earlier threatened to burn alive Noriaki Imai, 18; Soichiro Koriyama, 32; Nahoko Tokato, 34, if Japan did not withdraw troops from Iraq by a deadline on Sunday.

Imai graduated from high school last month. He is a member of the Campaign to Abolish Depleted Uranium and travelled to Iraq on 1 April to study the effects of depleted uranium on Iraqi children.

Koriyama is a former soldier turned freelance photojournalist.

Takato, is an aid worker and peace activist. She travelled to Iraq in April 2003, after US and British tanks entered Baghdad


Alaba

[silver angel]

Japanese hostages to be released - Arab TV
11 April 2004

UPDATED REPORT
DUBAI: An Iraqi group which said it kidnapped three Japanese hostages has said it will release them within 24 hours, abandoning a threat to kill them, Arabic television station Al Jazeera said today.


"They will release them in 24 hours in response to a call from the Muslim Clerics Association," Al Jazeera said, referring to a body of Iraqi religious scholars.

An Al Jazeera spokesman said the Qatar-based channel received the information in a fax from the group called Saraya al-Mujahideen, which said on Thursday in a tape that it would kill the Japanese if Japan did not withdraw troops from Iraq by a deadline on Sunday.

A foreign ministry spokesman said he was unaware of the report.

Japanese foreign minister Yoriko Kawaguchi appealed in a video message on Saturday for the release of the Japanese hostages in Iraq as protesters called for Tokyo to withdraw its troops to save the captives' lives.

Japan was stunned on Thursday when the unknown group released a video showing the hostages, blindfolded and with a gun to their heads.

Earlier on Saturday, a group calling itself the Brigades of the Hero Martyr Sheikh Ahmed Yassin said they were holding 30 foreign hostages and threatened to decapitate them unless US forces lifted their blockade of the Iraqi town of Falluja.

"We have Japanese, Bulgarian, Israeli, American, Spanish and Korean hostages," a masked gunman said in an footage aired by Arab TV station, Al Arabiya. The footage showed no hostages.

There was no word on the whereabouts of the three hostages and a senior Japanese diplomat sent to Jordan declined to say whether he had contacted the kidnappers.

Some 1000 protesters demanding troops come home gathered near prime minister Junichiro Koizumi's office hours before US vice-president Dick Cheney arrived to start of a three-nation Asian tour.

Koizumi, facing his toughest test, has vowed not to pull out the troops, but some analysts say mishandling the crisis could bring down his government.


more news (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2871773a10,00.html)

[heno heno moheji]

I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but the majority of Japanese public have been keeping their heads surprisingly.
one of the reasons is that three civilians went to Iraq unwisely although Japan Foreign Ministry announces the evacuation recommendation so that the Japanese public should not go to the most dangerous Iraq. maybe the majority of Japanese public feel they deserve it as a result of paying no mind of the evacuation recommendation.
but a portion of public and mass media have been so excited and bubbled over fanatically. they said such as this responsibility belongs to Japan Government, forgetting their own fault.
and a quick digression, some people in 2-channel(the Japanese famous message board) suspect that this affair may be played their own work, judging from the video and fax message which smell fishy.

but if a terror attack arises in Japan, the Japanese public are anything but keeping their heads contrary to the response for this kidnapping of three idiots.

[Yuka82]

But alot of my friends want Koizumi to resign. The Japanese public is split on this one.
Here's the article:
http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040411a7.htm

I dunno...I just want world peace.

[TuskCracker]

Think their was a secret deal.

For Americans, it should have been something like this;

Release them or we will send 20-30 thousand elite Japanese soldiers.

I thinks that is what understood in the Middle-East.

p.s: going to war is no trivial decision.

.

[heno heno moheji]

For Americans, it should have been something like this;

Release them or we will send 20-30 thousand elite Japanese soldiers.

sorry to say, Japan Government cant send the soldiers to purpose to fight constitutionally. therefore Japan need an alliance of another country army ironically.

[Hypertokyo5]

ruh roh!!!!!!! :mad:

[Brooker]

I think the peaceful people of Japan will be very troubled by the hostage situation, but the Japanese government will not back down. Japan may not be a military power, but it's a proud country that doesn't want to be seen as weak.

The politics of Japan and America are so linked (sometimes unfortunately) that I think they will always support each other even if the reasons are a little "iffy".

[Maciamo]

Japan may not be a military power, but it's a proud country that doesn't want to be seen as weak.

Maybe as a country, but Japanese people are often the first to claim their weak physical and "characterial" (lack of opinion & decisiveness...) constitution...

[senseiman]

I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but the majority of Japanese public have been keeping their heads surprisingly.
one of the reasons is that three civilians went to Iraq unwisely although Japan Foreign Ministry announces the evacuation recommendation so that the Japanese public should not go to the most dangerous Iraq. maybe the majority of Japanese public feel they deserve it as a result of paying no mind of the evacuation recommendation.
but a portion of public and mass media have been so excited and bubbled over fanatically. they said such as this responsibility belongs to Japan Government, forgetting their own fault.
and a quick digression, some people in 2-channel(the Japanese famous message board) suspect that this affair may be played their own work, judging from the video and fax message which smell fishy.

but if a terror attack arises in Japan, the Japanese public are anything but keeping their heads contrary to the response for this kidnapping of three idiots.

I have to say that I find this attitude abolutely disgusting. These people went to Iraq because they wanted to help people and now they may pay for their devotion with their lives. You may not have the courage yourself to risk your life to help people, but calling those that do 'idiots', especially at a time like this, is really appalling.

[Yuka82]

I agree with senseiman. There are many conspiracy theories in Japan right now. Especially because we still don't know the whereabouts of the three hostages but the majority of the Japanese, I dare to say, still want them to come back safely to their families. Actually, a lot of people call the Prime Minister "heartless" due to his refusal to meet with the families.

[silver angel]

I just heard that they went back on their word. Are they going to kill them or let them go?

[Ulubatli]

Think that you have taken hostage some innocent people. Your lands under invasion by multi-national army. Your first opponent is very powerful, it is dominating the world. Also there are armies of superpowers in your land.

You try to defend your lands. In order to do this, you have to try different methods since your equipments, gears, technology and army is not enouht to defeat them.

Fırst you will try to scare them. In order to scare them, you will bluff and swagger that you are going to kill 'em all. After several months, you couldn't do anything but be defeated several times. Either, nobody is scared of your bluffs anymore.

Second, you will try to attack tactically to weak points of invaders. Suicidal bombings are one of these tactical attacks. Another tactical attack is to take hostage civillians. You know that civillians are innocent people and invaders have to reply. If it were soldiers that has been taken hostage, invaders wouldn't care so much since soldiers went there venturing their lifes however civillian lifes are important.

Once you have taken hostage some civillians, you have two things to do:
1. Continue to threat the invaders using innocent hostages.

If the invaders does not withdraw;

2. Either free hostages or kill them.

If you kill innocent hostages, you are no longer a hero in your lands. You will no longer get help from the international society since you have killed innocent people. No organisation can endanger the help of international society. And if you kill the innocent hostages, you will give a reason to the invaders and make it legitimate to be invaded.

So, don't worry, they are not that much stupid to kill the hostages. They will be freed very soon... I am very much sure about that...

[Satori]

Maybe I should have posted at the end of this thread instead of the one I created here:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8082

[Mandylion]

Second, you will try to attack tactically to weak points of invaders. Suicidal bombings are one of these tactical attacks. Another tactical attack is to take hostage civillians. You know that civillians are innocent people and invaders have to reply. If it were soldiers that has been taken hostage, invaders wouldn't care so much since soldiers went there venturing their lifes however civillian lifes are important.

If you kill innocent hostages, you are no longer a hero in your lands.

If things gave gotten so bad that a force needs to take and threaten to kill civilians, I don't think the people you are representing are going to hate you if those civilians are killed. Just look at Israel and Hamas. Suicide bombings in Israel haven't turned their supporters against them. I don't see how three Japanese being killed are going to turn Iraq against terrorist groups.

If your theory was true, 9/11 should have been the end of Al Qaeda.

So, don't worry, they are not that much stupid to kill the hostages. They will be freed very soon... I am very much sure about that... You don't take hostages unless you are ready to kill them. When you take hostages you get in a big game of "chicken" (person who gives up first wins). If you want to be cold about this, killing the hostages woul not be stupid. It would be smart. Now, everyone has to take you seriously when you take hostages in the future.

No great terrorist organization / revolutionary force ever got to the position they are/were in through playing nice. If Hamas or Al Queda only issued empty threats, what is the point?

[Ulubatli]

In fact, you made a good point. But the thing is that are they terrorists or rebellian groups? We know that terrorist (one who tries to achieve a purpose by using act of violence) do not care about civillians or international society... However, if you are a rebellian group, that you should take into account the opinion and thought of international society about you. Does Al-Qaeda or Hamas able to get any help from the international society? No... However, a defensive army of a rebellian group should take these into account in order to get help and legitimize itself...

If they are terrorist groups like Hamas or Al-Qaeda, than you are right, you made a good point... However, they seem to be a defensive group.

[Mandylion]

Well, said Ulubatli - that makes your first post a bit clearer to me now. Thanks:) But we are still talking about using violence to bring about change right? If the people holding the Japanese in Iraq are freedom fighters and not terrorists, they are using violence to achieve an end - I doubt those three Japanese asked to be taken hostage. Their captivity was begun and was/is maintained through the use or threat of force.

On top of that a group like Hamas probably does not consder itself a terrorist group but rather a liberation/rebellion group and neither do most of the people they are trying to impress. They don't seem to realy care about international opinion since most of it seems to be going towards Israel (despite all the stuff with walls as of late). The only people they are concerned are other like-minded groups.

The problem with revolutionary groups is that terror is one of the biggest weapons they have. It has almost never failed to be used. They try and shape the public relations fall-out that the people they kill were somehow connected to the regime they are trying to overthrow. Oftentimes that is not the case. This pattern is played out again and again. Civilians will always be caught in the middle.

I'm not up to date on the particulars of revolution in the last century, but has there recently been (as in since the Russian Revolution changed the name of the game) a violent revolutionary movement that did not use terrror to some extent?

[senseiman]

The comparison with Hamas is interesting because one of the groups of kidnappers in Iraq (not the one that took the Japanese though) claims to be acting in the name of the late spiritual leader of Hamas, Sheik Yassin, who was recently assasinated by the Israelis.

There are some differences between Hamas and the Iraqi resistance though. They are both fighting foreign occupation of their land, but Hamas has the additional aim of conquering Israel, the homeland of both the Palestinians and their oppressor's. The insurgents in Iraq just seem interested in ending the occupation, which is a much more realistic goal than that of Hamas. In that regard, you can see why international public opinion would be more valuable for the Iraqi insurgents than for Hamas. Hamas' goals and views are so out of whack that few people outside of the occupied territories would sympathize, if for no other reason than that they are completely impossible. Some Iraqi groups, like Sadr's militia, are obviously aiming at goals which they reasonably believe to be achievable and thus are more likely to court international opinion.

[Mandylion]

Ah, well put senseiman. I can see how that would work.

But isn't hostage taking such a distasteful tactic (esp. in this case when your hostages are third party humanitarian workers) that you are not going to win any points beyond the people who already argee with your cause?

[Elizabeth]

What is still unclear to me is any evidence that these previously unheard of fringe terrorist cell groups are even looking for or require national or international support. Governments from Russia to France to the Phillippines and Japan are already either beginning evacuations of their nationals and/or peacekeeping troops or considering it. The factors underlying this surge in kidnappings and street to street fighting over the last couple weeks hasn't been well explained either, but I doubt very seriously any conditions on the ground have suddenly become so unbearable that taking hostages has became a last resort. It's more likely a vulnerability such groups as the so-called Mujahadeen Brigade have been looking to exploit for some time and the opportunity has now, for whatever reason, presented itself.

[senseiman]

True, Mandylion, kidnapping isn't going to win the insurgents any sympathy from the international community. But the kidnappings can definitely change international public opinion about the conflict. The kidnappings of the Japanese, for instance, has put tremendous pressure on the Japanese government and may in fact cause it to collapse if things don't go well. At the very least, it will probably turn the Japanese public more strongly against Japan's involvement in the war.

[senseiman]

What is still unclear to me is any evidence that these previously unheard of fringe terrorist cell groups are even looking for or require national or international support. Governments from Russia to France to the Phillippines and Japan are already either beginning evacuations of their nationals and/or peacekeeping troops or considering it. The factors underlying this surge in kidnappings and street to street fighting over the last couple weeks hasn't been well explained either, but I doubt very seriously any conditions on the ground have suddenly become so unbearable that taking hostages has became a last resort. It's more likely a vulnerability such groups as the so-called Mujahadeen Brigade have been looking to exploit for some time and the opportunity has now, for whatever reason, presented itself.

The kidnappings seem to be directly related to the US seige of Fallujah. Almost all of the abductions occured in the area between Fallujah and Baghdad and most of the groups involved have specifically mentioned the ending of the siege as the main condition for the release of their hostages.

The siege is an absolutely senseless atrocity being carried out by the Marines in my opinion. According to hospital sources over 600 people have been killed so far, most of them women, children and the elderly. About a third of the population of 200,000 have fled the city and hundreds of people's homes have been destroyed. The cause of the siege was the Bush administration's desire to be seen acting to avenge the deaths of 4 US mercenaries whose grizzly deaths in Fallujah 2 weeks ago shocked the American public. It is nothing more than a bloody act of vengeance and it has sickened Iraqis from all religious groups.

[Yuka82]

Thank god the hostages were released and they are safe! :D

[TuskCracker]

sorry to say, Japan Government cant send the soldiers to purpose to fight constitutionally. therefore Japan need an alliance of another country army ironically.

Don't let pathetic bullies, with AK47's and RPG's push a great nation around.

[Jean-Francois]

The terrorists are trying to drive a wedge among the coalition force. Don't let them succeed. The Americans might make wrong calculations sometimes but they are NO BULLIES. What do you expect Bush to do? Sitting around and wait for the terrorist organizations to grow? Who started the war first? What about the Americans who died in 911?

[playaa]

Jean-Francois, finally someone who has the same opinion as me. So many ANTI-BUSH people it makes me sick. America is called a bully by everyone, even many of its own people, but what are we supposed to do, tuck our tails and run? Wait for the next attack? People fail to think that what if it was them that went under attack? What would they do? I don't think the answer is to hard to come up with.

[bossel]

Who started the war first? What about the Americans who died in 911?
Which relation does 9/11 have to the Iraq war?

Anyway, not all Iraqis who fight the invaders are terrorists.

[senseiman]

The terrorists are trying to drive a wedge among the coalition force. Don't let them succeed. The Americans might make wrong calculations sometimes but they are NO BULLIES. What do you expect Bush to do? Sitting around and wait for the terrorist organizations to grow? Who started the war first? What about the Americans who died in 911?

YEAH! This'll teach Saddam to think twice before he sends hijackers to attack America again!

Oh...wait! Wasn't that some other guy who the Americans let escape in Afghanistan because they were too busy preparing to attack Iraq?

I'm all confused now.

[den4]

Seems like two of the former hostages want to remain in Iraq, despite their family and government's view they should leave. Seems like efforts are also being made to put a condition that if future reporters/volunteers insist on remaining in dangerous territory, that they will have to pay for any rescue attempts that becomes necessary.
The Photographer dude, the one with the attitude, appears not to be very grateful that he was rescued...unless he was just getting over his shock...but if his attitude shows that that is how he is, then the next time he gets held as hostage, he should pay for his own rescue, rather than having the people of Japan worry about him like they have up to now....including his mother...whom according to the news had called him an idiot for his comments.... :o

[Maciamo]

One more important thing about the Japanese civilians and Self-Defense Forces in Iraq ; First I thought that the SDF were forced against their will by the government (themselves under US pressure), but I was told that most if not all of the 550 SDF soldiers in Iraq now volunteered to go to Iraq and personally wanted to go. Millions of Japanese would want them to go back to Japan, but aren't they free, like civilians, to go to and stay in Iraq if they want to.

If the problem is "using the taxpayer's money", that is an invlaid argument now. It may have cost a lot to send them first, but now that they are in Iraq, it would propably cheaper not to repatriate them, as life is much cheaper in Iraq (food, etc.), and the gov. would have to sustain them for doing virtually nothing in Japan.

And last but not least, why call back troops now that they know that (Japanese) civilians can be in danger. Isn't it also the roles of these troops to protect their country's civilians ? Leaving now would be cowardice, even more when 2 of the 3 hostages decide to stay. Then, what about their responsibility. They are in Iraq to protect civilians, and leave once the slightest trouble comes up ? What's that for an army ? Is that really the kind of people Japanese expect to defend their country ? No, SDF could only stay in Iraq now, even if it wasn't a good idea to dispatch them in the first place.

[playaa]

Good post Maciamo.


AND Senseiman: The U.S. did not up and leave that case, I know first hand there is still if not more military enlisted personel in afghanistan right now, then ever.. Looking for Osama. You do not hear much about it because that is not where live fire, and resistant forces are, afghanistans fight is over, its basically a man hunt now over thousands of miles of mountains for 1 guy. So before you make acclaims of stuff like that get some facts.

I am currently an active duty U.S. Navy enlistee and know of atleast 130 people who are on cruises right now for specific afghanistan missions and nothing to do with Iraq, Along with the thousands of other enlisted personel over there.

[Elizabeth]

Seems like two of the former hostages want to remain in Iraq, despite their family and government's view they should leave. Seems like efforts are also being made to put a condition that if future reporters/volunteers insist on remaining in dangerous territory, that they will have to pay for any rescue attempts that becomes necessary.
The Photographer dude, the one with the attitude, appears not to be very grateful that he was rescued...unless he was just getting over his shock...but if his attitude shows that that is how he is, then the next time he gets held as hostage, he should pay for his own rescue, rather than having the people of Japan worry about him like they have up to now....including his mother...whom according to the news had called him an idiot for his comments.... :o
I gather this is the same one mentioned in this article who had been criticized for recklessness and irresponsibility, although it didn't give his comments or any reasons. One thing at least it never hurts to have the French on your side outlining all the humanitarian good of being able to help so many Iraqi civilians now that Saddam is no longer a threat :relief:

http://www.asahi.com/international/update/0417/011.html

[bossel]

If the problem is "using the taxpayer's money", that is an invlaid argument now. It may have cost a lot to send them first, but now that they are in Iraq, it would propably cheaper not to repatriate them, as life is much cheaper in Iraq (food, etc.), and the gov. would have to sustain them for doing virtually nothing in Japan.
I doubt that. They very probably import most of their food from around the world, only some fruits & vegetables will be of local origin, if anything at all. I don't really know about the Japanese troops, but the German troops in Afghanistan import virtually everything they need, from water to potatoes.

Accommodation also should be rather expensive, since they have to live in extra-secured compounds.

I know that German troops get additional payment for missions abroad, I suppose that's valid for Japanese also.

Costs are therefore probably much higher than if they were being sustained for doing nothing in Japan.



that is not where live fire, and resistant forces are, afghanistans fight is over, its basically a man hunt now over thousands of miles of mountains for 1 guy. So before you make acclaims of stuff like that get some facts.
The fight is over, hmmm?

This is from the US DoD, Central Command Operations Briefing of Friday, April 16:

"there's not just the al Qaeda, but the Taliban and the HIG [Hezbe Islami Gulbuddin], the three insurgent elements inside of Afghanistan that we're constantly in hot pursuit of, that we -- again, we develop intelligence, we do precision attacks"

I don't know which news sources you have, but I hear rather regularly of attacks & ambushes in Afghanistan. There may be less fighting going on, there may be fewer US casualties than in Iraq, but the fight is far from over.

[Maciamo]

I doubt that. They very probably import most of their food from around the world, only some fruits & vegetables will be of local origin, if anything at all. I don't really know about the Japanese troops, but the German troops in Afghanistan import virtually everything they need, from water to potatoes.


And they call themselves soldiers ? :okashii: Shame on them. Even young backpackers are tougher than them.

[bossel]

Hey, you have to keep your soldiers in a good mood!

[senseiman]

Good post Maciamo.


AND Senseiman: The U.S. did not up and leave that case, I know first hand there is still if not more military enlisted personel in afghanistan right now, then ever.. Looking for Osama. You do not hear much about it because that is not where live fire, and resistant forces are, afghanistans fight is over, its basically a man hunt now over thousands of miles of mountains for 1 guy. So before you make acclaims of stuff like that get some facts.

I am currently an active duty U.S. Navy enlistee and know of atleast 130 people who are on cruises right now for specific afghanistan missions and nothing to do with Iraq, Along with the thousands of other enlisted personel over there.

Don't get me wrong, playa, I used to be an enlisted man in the Canadian army myself and I know at least one guy I used to serve with who is in Afghanistan at the moment. The last I read there are about 10,000 US troops in Afghanistan fighting Al-Qaida and the Taliban as opposed to 135,000 or so in Iraq. Big difference.

According to Richard Clarke, immediately after 9/11 the Bush administration was so obsessed with attacking Iraq that they deliberately undermanned the invasion of Afghanistan so as to have enough troops ready for an Iraq invasion. This required the military to depend heavily on unreliable and dishonest Afghan allies, and this over-dependence is widely credited with having allowed many senior members of Al-Quaida and the Taliban to escape. In light of this, I stand by what I wrote above.

[bossel]

Maciamo, it seems the US is doing just the same for their guys in Iraq as what the Germans do in Afghanistan. I found this in an NYT article about closure of roads due to attacks on convoys which led to problems in food supply.
Just one company, Kellogg Brown & Root, is "responsible for delivering 40 percent of drinking water, food and fuel consumed by the American occupation authority and the 135,000-soldier command."

I think, it's reasonable to assume the Japanese are doing the same.

[playaa]

I stand with what I said about us not doing the Afghanistan situation wrong. But I also do not disagree with the Bush adminsitration being obsessed with Iraw and fulfilling his fathers job. Which makes me a 50/50 split on Dislike and Like of Bush. But I do not think Kerry will benefit the U.S. any more then Bush, as said and stated before.. The Presidency is nothing but for power and moneyand to be elected next time so it wont hardly ever be ran right.

[ippolito]

I think that with sep. 11th Osama declaired an open war...
in all the world and anytime...it is western agaist fondamentalistc islamic
unfortunanly my country have paid more thatn other after us soldiers..
19 italians were killed and now a civilian has been shut on his head...
but before the shut he said:
now i let you see how an italian dies

this remebers me the way of
Bushido that for many japanese it is something to see in the cinema,
like in the last Samurai.
I have been in japanese martial arts for 30 years...and I learne that when
you must fight in reality you cannot use you power 50 %

Now there is a war (not declared like in the past) we saw what happen in spain and spanish governement is escaping like a mouse when see the cat.....

Why they take civilians ? it is too easy....
women reporters....etc....

I think Japan should resist adn not do like the spanish....
Onu is something slowmotion.......most of them are employes well paid
and to take a decision and to be operative take a months and months...
Where were Onu when in Rwanda milions of civilians were killed like chiken?




I agree with senseiman. There are many conspiracy theories in Japan right now. Especially because we still don't know the whereabouts of the three hostages but the majority of the Japanese, I dare to say, still want them to come back safely to their families. Actually, a lot of people call the Prime Minister "heartless" due to his refusal to meet with the families.

[heno heno moheji]

Oh, ippolito.
I am sorry to your sadness and deplore their loss.

but the temporary withdrawal of Japan Self-Defense Forces becomes to be rumored recently, for the reason that Samawah, Iraq south area, where Self-Defense Forces are dispatched is not turning into a noncombat area.
if they withdraws, I'm anxious that everyone looks on it as the evidence witch Japan is compromised by terror.
What do you think?

[kuchi]

well, i hope japan pulls out. this is a shameful war that should be brought too an end. i know american troops under the bush regime will do what is necessary too keep all the countries currently in iraq there. bush is having trouble in america, with the facts coming out that people in his admin lied about the war, coupled with no reason too go there other than saddam being a bastard (and there are plenty in the world, no need too single out ones that have tried too kill your dad, have oil, and buisness moguls like haliburton would drool over). bush, in his infinite stupidity, originally called this war a "crusade" against terrorism, and claims it has carried over from afghanistan. i can tell you that if you want insurgents, uttering the word "crusade" is the way too do it. and as i believe none of the reasons for going too iraq, every person who dies there...EVERY person, is an act of barbaric murder. these people should be reason enough for the meager troops japan has there for political reasons too withdraw. japans leader can only prove how corrupt he is if he allows even one japanese citizen too die for political reasons.



EDIT sry i wrote this post after only reading page one...ignore any reference that has already transpired plz.

[ippolito]

I understand tha Japan as Italy could be a target.....
but all are doing something to get the power even Al Sadre
could reach an agreement with us ...as to have more power in the new
iraqi gov. in July....but if this will be an accomodation what happen to those iraqi fighters that died few weeks ago trying to do a battle against marines? So those young gave their life for this man and his religion
there are no religions that admit omicides.
I can image how much money the us gov has planned for us companies
for the recostruction in Iraq, but Ithink they made some mistakes
of undervalue the postwar situation....
In my ignorance I could say let them live as they wish....with religious
power behind the future iraqui gov. and they would care by themself
only as italians are doing send medicines and food......perhpas it could explode a civil war with milions of deaths...perhaps not....who could say this?
kumbawa
Ippolito san[/

[Jack Dean Tyler]

The American's claim me as one of their own. And, I'm against the war in Iraq (and Afganistan too). May I ask any Japanese who would care to answer why they are involved with the likes of the "American president"? What would a typical modern Japanese do if the situation with the hostages held in Iraq were reversed? If modern Japan were invaded, would a the Japanese even fight at all?

[yimija]

Well, in the first place, what is Japan doing over ther ? :? That is the real question.

... and don't serve me any of this bush..shxxxx abour saving the world !

Nobody believe that any more. Today we all know that "daddy's little boy" wanted a revenge, because daddy said so and decided, along with his mates he had then in his government in the '90 (the same as in this government today) and little boy did just that what daddy ordered. It was all based on lies, contempt and total non-respect of his fellows citizen.

Now what we have to find out is : what's the relation between "little boy's" daddy and... Koizumi's dad ?

[ippolito]

I think that us politics have done many mistakes......on the first Gulf war they were to take Saddam but they stopped....so they need a new war with more deads
to get him and the story is not finished.......it seems another Vietnam
I hope for all especially for the children that always pay in wars.....
with death or bad injuries that alll this will finish in this year.....
Perhaps e multinational force without us and british and italians could be accepted as to let them create a democratic gov. but it is very difficolt to organize that force
with the mission to defend the innocent people all this could be reache oly with
agreements with imam and local important people...wthout this i think that it will very difficolt to have a clear future...there this my simple opinion...
Ippolito

[yimija]

Well now Sir :

I think Japan should resist adn not do like the spanish....
Onu is something slowmotion.......most of them are employes well paid
and to take a decision and to be operative take a months and months...
Where were Onu when in Rwanda milions of civilians were killed like chiken?[/QUOTE]

You should'nt talk about things you dont know, especially about ONU (or UNO in english). Obviously if you think ONu is slow motion, maybe you are only partly right and in some cases only. But you should also ask yourself : "Why ?" Just try to take along five or your best friends and ask them to resolve a very important matter, where life & death is concerned, a topic which will cost millions or billions. See then if you can resolve that in less than five minutes. UNO, it's over 150 countries, and not all friends in the first place. ONU has made many mistakes, yes, but this organization is constantly the theatre of internal discussions (fights ?) between so many ideologies and politics. That might be part of an answer to your questions.

Now just imagine the world without ONU, and see what it would be.

Rwanda ? I wonder why the US did not interfere with those dangerous killers ? ah yes, of course ! No petrol. Why the italians did not go there in the first place ? Ah, yes, no american friends, of course ! And still no petrol.

you see ? nothing is white or black. It's in the shady parts of grey that one has to find the answers.

as for the spanish withdrawal, i hope the polish government will have the same guts as the spanish and get out of there, too. Koizumi should follow, this is a no-good war (is there such thing as a yes-good war ?), Berlusconi will not have the strength of characters to pull out, of course.

in the end, the entire world is losing. No winners !

Have a wonderful day ippolito san

[ippolito]

I understand thast the power of us in onu is very heavy....but there are other nationsmuch more powerful than Italy like Russia Germany and China....
Italy does not have many soldiers and now is changhing as to have only volunteers and professional soldiers but the numbers are very different....
In Rwanda could go also russians chinese and or german and french....
so multinational force without us...as us doesn't had any interests there as you wrote....Ithink sometime could change in a near future if Kerry will win the elections
but he will be under pressaure by the economic forces thet are very strong there.
It seems that most of the countries just look what happen....everywere
and they look like Switzerland always far from all the problems of this world,
as I often say no positions no decisions
Here about Berlusconi most parties say that leave now Iraq it will let them going
certanly to a civil war as to conquist the power between Sunniti and Sciiti..
and regiolous influence could bgien sometime similar to Kossovo with many deads.
I think, in my simple mind, that the solution is out us but jp italians and all the others there with new countries involved ..as to defend and assist the civilians
and the new indipendent Iraqui gov. but this it will be very difficolt.......
also you should have nice day.....
Ippolito san

[ippolito]

You should'nt talk about things you dont know, especially about ONU


Sorry but I saw the results....I do not know if you are japanese but here
at less than 500 km Serbs and albanees were destroying themeself
even women and children they called etnic cleaning and only Nato
stopped all this....Onu just approved...so I am talking about onu
based on what are the events....in this case lets Forget about
Cecenia or Tibet.....forgotten problems.....
take care
Ippolito







]

[yimija]

Hi Ippolito,
whatever we, little ones we are, have to say about wars, doesn't mean a thing.
Unfortunately !

The war(s) in the Balkans seemed to be over but it's not, and probably wont be for another generation or two, or three. And that is a nasty one, juste like any other war.

The war in Irak should never have been. It's solely (the stupidity of) one man, without any guts but just to please his daddy who went there. And there has been enough other (stupid little sheeps) men to follow. All that for economic reason and none other.

The one who applied for reason before war were laughed at. The french, german, belgium, swiss (and many others) governments were treated as traitors and perfidious !

Some african nations even lost their financial aid they received from america. How disgusting can you get ?

Let the Iraki people organize their own country, even if there must be bloodshed. Out with everybody, let them tell us who they want to help. A nation, (almost all nations in fact) have been born this way, through pain and suffering. Is it inevitable ? I do not have the answer and no one has it.

What are the causes of all the wars ? Not so many :

1) Religion & ethnic (Ethnico-religious)
2) Economics, for petrol or other goods, for land, and so on...

3) ? That is all

One can find other minor reasons (if there are such "minor" reasons to kill), but they will all bring you back to 1) or 2).

Long time ago, they fought for fire. That was survival. This reason is yet completely unecessary.

or is it ???

good week to all

[名無し]

Magazine Ads about Hostages Covered up in Sapporo Subway (http://home.kyodo.co.jp/all/display.jsp?an=20040418085)SAPPORO, April 18, Kyodo - Stickers have been placed on ads for Shukan Shincho weekly magazine hung in subway trains in Sapporo to hide personal information on the three Japanese hostages recently released in Iraq, Sapporo City Transportation Bureau officials said Sunday."Personal information" finally available in English, this is the article based on the Weekly Shincho (http://www.shinchosha.co.jp/shukanshincho/) reports.

Drug Addict and Leftists: the truth about the three Japanese hostages in Iraq (http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0,4386,248940,00.html)

http://www.2log.net/home/mass/photo/iraq.jpg
「自業自得」 「税金泥棒」 「ぬるぽ」

[heno heno moheji]

Cooooom━━━━(ﾟ∀ﾟ)━━━━ing!!!! the message from 名無し(nanashi) san.

[名無し]

Drug Addict and Leftists: the truth about the three Japanese hostages in Iraq (http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0,4386,248940,00.html)The article is archived, now available here (http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0,4386,248940-1083535140,00.html).

[ippolito]

like all lands after many years under a commander like Saddam.....if no NAto or Onu
there will be a civil war as to get the power btwn Sciiti and Sunniti and the religious parties that are very strong....perhpas it was better to leave all like before...and some of those the bilions of dollars spent give to those pooor african countries were children die every day without food and nothing medicine food water.....
This should be the most important goal of us adm.on working with onu to help those children getting food and not bombs....perhaps all this could stop the terrorism and could change those contries consideration for us gov.mnt
This is my simple consideration....but in this moment is an utopia....and milions of children will continue to die every year as no food and water and medicines and doctors unfortunanly this is a reality....not an utopia or a fantasy of a simple man like me.....
have a nice weekend to all