What to do about Yasukuni?

[DaMo]

I've discussed the issue with the Chinese and Koreans many times. Koizumi apparently cannot visit the Yasukuni shrine in official capacity anymore, thanks to a recent court ruling, but even that doesn't seem to satisy those who want Japanese officials to not visit the shrine at all.

How did the remains of the war criminals get interred in the shrine in the first place? That's what I would like to know. Who approved it, and what madness possessed them to do so?

Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

[kara]

Yasukuni issue has 2 contentions.
1)?violate the constitutional(Article20 & 89) separation of state and religion or not.
2)?violate the Treaty of Peace with Japan(signed at San Francisco, 8 September 1951) or not.

Contention 1) is an absolutely domestic problem, no connection to Chinese & Koreans. And for your information, the recent court opinion(not ruling) you mentioned didn't challenge contention 2) but this, and Japan has appellate courts and the supreme court.

About contention 2), you can read the article 11 of the Treaty of Peace with Japan here (http://www.taiwandocuments.org/sanfrancisco01.htm). Japanese Diet granted clemency to condemned criminals with "the decision of a majority of the Governments represented on the Tribunal" in Aug/1953. And other war criminals were paroled with respect by 5/may/1958.

In addition, Neither (both)Korea nor the People's Republic of China were invited to the San Francisco Peace Conference. So, they may not have the right to accuse Japan of violating that treaty.

Furthermore, both countries concluded such treaty with Japan which had already granted clemency to them.

Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea(June 22, 1965) (http://www.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~worldjpn/documents/texts/docs/19650622.T1E.html)


Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China(September 29, 1972) (http://www.ioc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~worldjpn/documents/texts/docs/19720929.D1E.html)


>Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

It is said there's no way for Shinto tradition. But their dogma/tenets are not so rigid compare to other religions, so there will be some room to compel it like other cases around the world.

[名無し]

NHK (http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/dailynews.html) reported on May 16th, 2005Koizumi: Foreign Countries Should Not Intervene in Yasukuni Shrine Visits

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has indicated that he will visit Yasukuni Shrine this year, saying it is up to him to decide on the appropriate time.

At a parliamentary committee meeting on Monday, Mr Koizumi referred to the Chinese demand that he stop visiting the controversial shrine in Tokyo.

Mr Koizumi said "Foreign countries should not intervene in how Japan honors its war dead. The issue of enshrined Class-A war criminals is often debated in Parliament. But Confucius of China said 'Condemn the crime, not the criminal'. I will judge for myself when to visit."

Mr Koizumi said China has called on Japan to show repentance through its acts, and that Japan has done so for the past 60 years, since the end of World War Two. Mr Koizumi has visited the shrine annually since taking office in April 2001.

Neighboring countries, including China and South Korea, have been critical of the visits.Kǒng Zǐ of China said, 伯夷、叔齐不念旧恶，怨是用希.
Modern Chinese seem to feel that this kind of virtue does not necessarily apply to the 倭人 subhumans.

[lexico]

Confucius of China said 'Condemn the crime, not the criminal'.
This is Buddhist, not Confucian. For the idea to work in reality accountability must come first. Visiting the Yasukuni Shine is not considered accountable because it degrades the world it destoryed by glorifying the chief criminal elements of Imperial Japan that Yasukuni enshrines. What goes thru the minds of people who nervously reacts to outside criticism while taking refuge in the fantasy world of the late Empire ? Let me quote some examples: please tell me what remote chances of accountability you see in it.

"The War Was not With Asia --a Mr.Nishitani

"The war wasn't fought against Asia; we fought against Britain and the US."

"Shedding Asia Rhetoric 脫亞論 --Fukuzawa Yukichi"

"In Europe (referring to Germany)... they talk about the Holocaust as if it were somebody else's business. ...In Japan's case there are people like Mr. Takahashi who emphasizes the importance of taking the ultimate reponsibility for the Nanjing Massacre, Comfort Women, and Unit 731. But this kind of argument is illogical and wrong. I don't like it. There are those people like me who think that 'philosphy' cannot be such a dreadful thing." (please check with relevant source. The text used for retranslation is not always clear with the pronouns.)

The following is about the idea of 'condemning the crime and not the criminal' and how it is applied in the reintegration of criminals and preventing repeat offenders. (the original page has been removed, and this is a cached version.) I wonder if Mr. Koizumi has any practical plans regarding his reference to the idea, or was it pure smoke rhetoric ?

Comments on John Braithwaite's Theory of Reintegrative Shaming

Professor Braithwaite has defined two different kinds of shame. One kind is stigmatizing shame, which disintegrates the moral bonds between the offender and the community. The other is reintegrative shaming, which strengthens the moral bonds between the offender and the community.
Braithwaite's alternative to stigmatic humiliation is to condemn the crime, not the criminal.

The idea here is that we should hate the sin but love the sinner. It gives offenders the opportunity to re-join their community as law-abiding citizens. In order to earn that right to a fresh start, offenders must express remorse for their past conduct, apologize to any victims and repair the harm caused by the crime.

According to Braithwaite, shaming is the key to controlling all types of crime. Stigmatization (bad shaming) increases crime but reintegrative shaming decreases crime. Reintegrative shaming means that expressions of community disapproval are followed by gestures of reacceptance. When we become outcasts, we reject our rejecters and shame no longer matters to us.

Japan:

This is the only county in the world that has experienced a steady drop in crime for the last 50 years. And this is not simply a response to improvements made after world war two, because crime also dropped from 1976 to 1980, well after war time restoration.

In Japan, prosecution only proceeds when the suspect refuses to apologize and provide compensation to the victim or victims. In fact, less than two percent of those convicted of a crime serve any time in prison. Even 27 percent of those convicted of murder serve no prison time.

Relatives of the criminal and supervisors often commit suicide after the crime occurred. This is part of the shaming process.

In Japan, children’s literature reflects the process of reintegrative shaming. For example, in the Japanese version of Little Red Riding Hood, the wolf falls on his knees and tearfully promises to mend his ways.

There is a cultural assumption of basic goodness, which probably relates to Buddhism. Criminals are thought to be controlled by a bug. Americans are likely to say to a police officer "Why Me?," while Japanese are likely to say, "I’m sorry."

Shaming and repentance builds internal control, or a conscience. Shaming of local offenders (at the neighborhood level) is likely to impress upon kids the wrongness of criminal behavior.

Women are more susceptible to shaming: see page 99 for a path diagram of the theory.

15 summary points about the theory:

1. The deterrence literature suggests that deterrence works primarily through the fear of shame from close friends and family members; not from formal sanctions.

2. Shaming has "general deterrence" value since it deters others who want to avoid shame.

3. Shaming works best for those with strong attachments to other people.

4. Stigmatization breaks down attachments and therefore increases crime.

5. Shaming develops good internal control (a conscience).

6. Repentance after offending builds respect for the law.

7. Citizens become "instruments of social control" with reintegrative shaming.

8. Once one develops a conscience from shaming, "timely anxiety" towards temptation always arises.

9. Shaming includes both the process of building up consciences and the most important means of dealing with crime.

10. Gossip about criminal behavior is important in building up the moral order.

11. The threat of public shaming (e.g., courts) puts pressure on parents and teachers to effectively utilize private shaming.

12. Public shaming helps a society agree about the boundary of deviant versus conforming behavior.

13. Cultures with reintegrative shaming establish a smoother transition to socialization practices in the family and those in the society.

14. Gossip is a good form of shaming because it is not excessively confrontational.

15. The effectiveness of reintegrative shaming is enhanced when it is also directed at the offenders family, co-workers, and friends.


Another site

http://www.restorativejustice.org/rj3/Full-text/Revisitingreintegrativeshaming.pdf

http://vorp.org/vorpnews/9611.pdf

John Braithwaite, a native of Australia, has enlightened us with a theory that has far reaching abilities in the study of crime reduction.

[TuskCracker]

.
Yasukuni?

What/Who is this ?

ANSWER; Japanese war memorial, with this;

-> The Yasukuni Shrine is a Shinto shrine located in Tokyo that commemorates Japan's war dead.

-> A big political contravercy surrounds the Yasukuni Shrine because since 1978, fourteen class A war criminals are among the 2.5 million people enshrined at Yasukuni.

[名無し]

This is Buddhist, not Confucian.Read 孔丛子 刑论 Kǒngc�ngzǐ X�ngl�n.

[lexico]

Read 孔丛子 刑论 Kǒngc�ngzǐ X�吉l�n.
1. Fine. Please tell me the exact, literal translation of 恶其意不恶其人. What is the context of said passage ? Would you say NHK's rendering of Mr. Koizumi's statement a faithful one to the original ? Or does it exactly reproduce Mr. Koizumi's wording ? The discrepancy is obvious, so one shouldn't quote Confucius for some easy cover. That's called the fallacy of false authority.

quote: 孔叢子　漢　孔鮒 〔刑論第四〕 (http://www.literature.idv.tw/ebook/%A6%E8%BA~/%A4%D5%C2O%A4l.htm) with permission for non-commercial use

仲弓問古之刑教與今之刑教． 孔子曰古之刑省． 今之刑繁． 其為教． 古有禮． 然後有刑． 是以刑省． 今無禮以教． 而齊之以刑． 刑是以繁． 書曰． 伯夷降典． 折民維刑． 謂先禮以教之． 然後繼以刑折之也． 夫無禮則民無恥． 而正之以刑． 故民茍免． 孔子適衛、衛將軍文子問曰、吾聞魯公父氏不能聽獄． 信乎． 孔子答曰、不知其不能也． 夫公父氏之聽獄． 有罪者懼． 無罪者恥． 文子曰有罪者懼． 是聽之察． 刑之當也． 無罪者恥． 何乎． 孔子曰齊之以禮． 則民恥矣． 刑以止刑． 則民懼矣． 文子曰今齊之以刑． 刑猶弗勝何禮之齊． 孔子曰以禮齊民譬之於御則轡也． 以刑齊民譬之於御則鞭也． 執轡於此而動於彼御之良文子曰吳越之俗無禮而亦治． 何也． 孔子曰、夫吳越之俗． 男女無別． 同廁而浴． 民輕相犯． 故其刑重而不勝． 由無禮也． 中國之教． 為外內以別男女． 異器服以殊等類． 故其民篤而法． 其刑輕而勝． 由有禮也．

孔子曰、民之所以生者衣食也． 上不教民． 民匱其生． 飢寒切於身而不為非者寡矣． 故古之於盜． 惡之而不殺也． 今不先其教而一殺之． 是以罰行而善不反． 刑張而罪不省． 夫赤子知慕其父母． 由審故也． 況為政者奪其賢者而與其不賢者以化民乎． 知審此二者則上盜息． 上盜猶大盜也書曰茲殷罰有倫． 子張問曰何謂也． 孔子曰不失其理之謂也． 今諸侯不同�ｺ． 國君呈? 曰非從維從． 孔子曰君子之於人也． 有不語也． 無不聽也． 況聽訟乎． 必盡其辭矣． 夫聽訟者． 或從其情． 或從其辭． 辭不可從． 必斷以情． 書曰人有小罪、非眚、乃惟終、自作不典、式爾有厥罪小� A乃不可不殺、乃有大罪、非終、乃為眚災、適爾既道極厥 辜、時乃不可殺．

曾子問聽獄之術、孔子曰其大法有三焉． 治必以�ｪ�ｪ之之術歸於察察之之術歸於義． 是故聽而不�ｪ是亂也． �ｪ而不察是慢也． 察而不中義是私也． 私則民怨． 故善聽者雖不越辭． 辭不越情． 情不越義． 書曰上下比罰、無僭亂辭、書曰哀矜折獄、仲弓問曰何謂 也、孔子曰古之聽訟者． 察貧窮哀孤獨及鰥寡老弱不肖而無告者． 雖得其情． 必哀矜之． ●者不可生． 斷者不可屬若老而刑之謂之悖． 弱而刑之謂之剋． 不赦過謂之逆． 率過以小罪謂之枳． 一作疻猶傷也夫過則宜宥若率以為小罪亦傷乎義故宥過赦� ｬ罪． 老弱不受刑． 先王之道也． 書曰大辟疑赦、又曰與其殺不辜、寧失不經、書曰若保赤 子、子張問曰聽訟可以若此乎、孔子曰可哉． 古之聽訟者． 惡其意不惡其人． 求所以生之． 不得其所以生乃刑之． 君必與眾共焉． 今之聽訟者． 不惡其意而惡其人． 求所以殺． 是反古之道也．

孟氏之臣叛、武伯問孔子、曰如之何．荅曰臣人而叛． 天下所不容也． 其狀自反． 子姑待之． 三旬果自歸孟氏． 武伯將執之． 訪于夫子． 夫子曰無也． 子之於臣． 禮意不至是以去子． 今其自反． 罪以反除． 又何執焉． 子修禮以待之． 則臣去子將安往． 武伯乃止．


2. What is your understanding of the Analects of Confucius passage ?

論語 公冶長編第五-二十二 子曰,伯夷叔齊不念旧恶怨是用希

[edit2: 18:10 May 21, 2005, Tokyo Standard Time. Appended message 17:30 moved to new post.]

[名無し]

Visiting the Yasukuni Shine is not considered accountable because it degrades the world it destoryed by glorifying the chief criminal elements of Imperial Japan that Yasukuni enshrines.Link (http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/koizumispeech/2004/11/22press_e.html)The specific issue of Yasukuni Shrine did come up in our discussion, and I listened to the view expressed by the Chinese side. I explained in my response that I pay my respects at Yasukuni out of my belief that we must never again fight in wars.The rest of the world is wise enough to refrain from publicly blaming or judging religious behavior of foreign culture, in order to avoid possible crash of civilizations.

Those who are intolerant of pagans might not care about a strange yet interesting way of handling evil ghosts, the 菅原道真 and 平将門 cases for instance.

[lexico]

名無し,

Please assume responsibility for your posts Nos. 3 and 6, and answer my questions in post No. 7. This is an English section and you've failed to supply English translations of Chinese passages that you've provided.

Please do so at your earliest convenience. Otherwise you are being disrespectful of members who do not speak Japanese or read kanji. Who knows what these passages mean to Mr. Koizumi or you ? You wouldn't want to be considered contemptful of members, would you ?

Regards, Lexico

[名無し]

"Shedding Asia Rhetoric 脫亞論 --Fukuzawa Yukichi"Fukuzawa was disappointed by the backward attitudes of Northeast Asian countries when the Western colonialism was reaching there.
He concluded that it was unrealistic to expect their awakening to form an ally for blocking the threats together, and advised that Japan should embrace westernization alone, leaving the rest of the Northeast Asia.
That is what his Datsuaron published on Mar. 16th 1885 meant.
It is easy to imagine how he became sick of people living in the past back then.

Interestingly some people seem to believe that Datsuaron is an essay that insisted that Japan should colonize Asia just like Western countries. Let's see if there is anything like that in the original text.　世界交通の道、便にして、西洋文明の風、東に漸し、至る處、草も気も此風に靡かざるはなし。蓋 し西洋の人物、古今に大に異なるに非ずと雖ども、其擧動の古に遅鈍にして今に活發なるは、唯交通の利器を利 用して勢に乗ずるが故のみ。故に方今当用に國するものゝ為に謀るに、此文明の東漸の勢に激して之を防ぎ了る 可きの覺悟あれば則ち可なりと雖ども、苟も世界中の現状を視察して事實に不可ならんを知らん者は、世と推し 移りて共に文明の海に浮沈し、共に文明の波を掲げて共に文明の苦樂を與にするの外ある可らざる なり。
　文明は猶麻疹の流行の如し。目下東京の麻疹は西國長崎の地方より東漸して、春暖と共に次第に蔓延する者の 如し。此時に當り此流行病の害を惡て此れを防がんとするも、果して其手段ある可きや。我輩斷じて其術なきを 證す。有害一遍の流行病にても尚且其勢には激す可らず。況や利害相伴ふて常に利益多き文明に於てをや。當に 之を防がざるのみならず、力めて其蔓延を助け、國民をして早く其氣風に浴せしむるは智者の事な る可し。
　西洋近時の文明が我日本に入りたるは嘉永の開國を發端として、國民漸く其採る可きを知り、漸次に活發の氣 風を催ふしたれども、進歩の道に横はるに古風老大の政府なるものありて、之を如何ともす可らず。政府を保存 せん歟、文明は決して入る可らず。如何となれば近時の文明は日本の舊套と兩立す可らずして、舊套を脱すれば 同時に政府も亦廢滅す可ければなり。然ば則ち文明を防て其侵入を止めん歟、日本國は獨立す可らず。如何とな れば世界文明の喧嘩繁劇は東洋孤島の獨睡を許さゞればなり。
　是に於てか我日本の士人は國を重しとし政府を輕しとするの大義に基き、又幸に帝室の神聖尊嚴に依頼して、 斷じて舊政府を倒して新政府を立て、國中朝野の別なく一切萬事西洋近時の文明を採り、獨り日本の舊套を脱し たるのみならず、亞細亞全洲の中に在て新に一機軸を出し、主義とする所は唯脱亞の二字にあるの みなり。
　我日本の國土は亞細亞の東邊に在りと雖ども、其國民の精神は既に亞細亞の固陋を脱して西洋の文明に移りた り。然るに爰に不幸なるは近隣に國あり、一を支那と云い、一を朝鮮と云ふ。此二國の人民も古來亞細亞流の政 教風俗に養はるゝこと、我日本國に異ならずと雖ども、其人種の由來を殊にするか、但しは同様の政教風俗中に 居ながらも遺傳教育の旨に同じからざる所のものある歟、日支韓三國三國相對し、支と韓と相似るの状は支韓の 日に於けるよりも近くして、此二國の者共は一身に就き又一國に關してして改進の道を知らず。交通至便の世の 中に文明の事物を聞見せざるに非ざれども耳目の聞見は以て心を動かすに足らずして、其古風舊慣に變々するの 情は百千年の古に異ならず、此文明日新の活劇場に教育の事を論ずれば儒教主義と云ひ、學校の教旨は仁義禮智 と稱し、一より十に至るまで外見の虚飾のみを事として、其實際に於ては眞理原則の知見なきのみか、道徳さえ 地を拂ふて殘刻不廉恥を極め、尚傲然として自省の念なき者の如し。
　我輩を以て此二國を視れば今の文明東漸の風潮に際し、迚も其獨立を維持するの道ある可らず。幸にして其の 國中に志士の出現して、先づ國事開進の手始めとして、大に其政府を改革すること我維新の如き大擧を企て、先 づ政治を改めて共に人心を一新するが如き活動あらば格別なれども、若しも然らざるに於ては、今より數年を出 でずして亡國と爲り、其國土は世界文明諸國の分割に歸す可きこと一點の疑あることなし。如何となれば麻疹に 等しき文明開化の流行に遭ひながら、支韓兩國は其傳染の天然に背き、無理に之を避けんとして一室内に閉居し 、空氣の流通を絶て窒塞するものなればなり。輔車唇歯とは隣國相助くるの喩なれども、今の支那朝鮮は我日本 のために一毫の援助と爲らざるのみならず、西洋文明人の眼を以てすれば、三國の地利相接するが爲に、時に或 は之を同一視し、支韓を評するの價を以て我日本に命ずるの意味なきに非ず。
　例へば支那朝鮮の政府が古風の専制にして法律の恃む可きものあらざれば、西洋の人は日本も亦無法律の國か と疑ひ、支那朝鮮の士人が惑溺深くして科學の何ものたるを知らざれば、西洋の學者は日本も亦陰陽五行の國か と思ひ、支那人が卑屈にして恥を知らざれば、日本人の義侠も之がために掩はれ、朝鮮國に人を刑するの惨酷な るあれば、日本人も亦共に無情なるかと推量せらるゝが如き、是等の事例を計れば、枚擧に遑あらず。之を喩へ ば比隣軒を竝べたる一村一町内の者共が、愚にして無法にして然も殘忍無情なるときは、稀に其町村内の一家人 が正當の人事に注意するも、他の醜に掩はれて湮没するものに異ならず。其影響の事實に現はれて、間接に我外 交上の故障を成すことは實に少々ならず、我日本國の一大不幸と云ふ可し。
　左れば、今日の謀を爲すに、我國は隣國の開明を待て共に亞細亞を興すの猶豫ある可らず、寧ろその伍を脱し て西洋の文明國と進退を共にし、其支那朝鮮に接するの法も隣國なるが故にとて特別の會釋に及ばず、正に西洋 人が之に接するの風に從て處分す可きのみ。惡友を親しむ者は共に惡友を免かる可らず。我は心に於て亞細亞東 方の惡友を謝絶するものなり。

[lexico]

名無し,

Thanks for answering, albeit in part, post No. 7. But it's still not in English. Could you kindly provide a literal English translation if it's not too much trouble ?

Also, I hate to remind you to please assume responsibility for your posts Nos. 3 and 6 IN ASCENDING ORDER, and respond to my other questions in post No. 7 also. Please take your time in answering them, perhaps one at a time.

Regards, Lexico

[Mike Cash]

How did the remains of the war criminals get interred in the shrine in the first place? That's what I would like to know. Who approved it, and what madness possessed them to do so?

Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

So basically you wish to deprive others of their freedom of religion?

[qwertyu]

Deprive them of their religious rights? What do you think if Hitler were enshrined in the Kolner Dom and the Jews were to protest visits there by Shroeder/Kohl? Would they be trying to deprive them from practising Catholicism?? Enshrining a war criminal in a place of worship is a political act, as is its protest.

Also, "Condemn the crime, not the criminal?" The problem here is that the "crime" isn't even condemned!! Yasukuni Shrine isn't just a Shinto temple, it is a Valhahal to the extreme defense of Japan's WWII history and neo-fascist Revisionism of the most blatant variety. Those rightwing LDP members like Ishihara also hold the same views. Here's what it says in wikipedia:

"In the People's Republic of China and South Korea, the shrine has become embroiled in controversy as a symbol of Japanese Militarism of the World War II, and a symbolic center of Japanese right-wing nationalism.



A pamphlet published by the shrine says "War is a really tragic thing to happen, but it was necessary in order for us to protect the independence of Japan and to prosper together with Asian neighbors." In others, the shrine runs a museum on the history of Japan, commemorating the soldiers who fought for Japan, remembering them as Kami. The English website claims that "Japan’s dream of building a Great East Asia was necessitated by history and it was sought after by the countries of Asia." The Japanese website claims that "Comfort women were not forced to serve by the Japanese Empire. Koreans were not forced to change their names to Japanese ones." The shrine also points to atrocities committed by the Allied forces, such as the sinking of the Tsushima Maru, a transport ship torpedoed and sunk leading to the deaths over 1500 people, of which 700 were elementary school children. A documentary-style video shown to museum visitors portrays Japan's conquest of east Asia during the pre-World War II as an effort to save east Asia from the imperial advances of western powers.



About 1,000 POWs executed for war crimes during World War II are enshrined here. This was not a political issue back then as Yasukuni was supposed to enshrine all Japanese War casualties. However, on October 17, 1978, 14 Class A war criminals (according to the judgement of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East), including Hideki Tojo, were quietly enshrined as "Martyrs of Showa" (昭和殉難者 Sh�檜a junnansha). ....When revealed to the media on April 19, 1979, this started a controversy which rages to this day. The shrine has further angered many with its defiant defense of the war criminals; the same pamphlet mentioned above also claims: "Some 1,068 people, who were wrongly accused as war criminals by the Allied court, were enshrined here." The shrine's English-language website refers to those 1,068 as those "who were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces." After the revelation of 1979, the Emperor of Japan stopped paying visits to the shrine and this has remained the case ever since. However there are also strong voices amongst the people of Japan in support of the visits [1]�A(http://www.asahi.com/special/shijiritsu/TKY200404190343.html), including Governor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara, who on August 15, 2004, indicated his strong hope for the Emperor to once again start paying visits to the shrine.



The controversial nature of the shrine has figured largely in both domestic Japanese politics and the country's relations with other countries in the region in the years since 1978. Three Japanese prime ministers have caused an uproar by visiting the shrine since then: Yasuhiro Nakasone in 1985, Ryutaro Hashimoto in 1996, and especially Junichiro Koizumi, who visited four times, in August 13, 2001, April 23, 2002, January 15, 2003 and January 1, 2004. Visits by prime ministers to the shrine generally provoke official condemnation by nations in the region, especially the People's Republic of China and South Korea, as they see such action as the the attempt to legitimise Japanese Militarism. Visits to the shrine also are controversial in the domestic debate over the proper role of religion in government: Some of LDP politicians insist that visits are protected by the constitutional right of the freedom of religion and that it is appropriate for legislators to pay their respects to those fallen in war. However, they refuse any proposal that a non-religious memorial be built for Japan's military dead so that those wishing to honor them do not have to visit the Yasukuni Shrine. The shrine also objects to any proposal that a non-religious memorial be built and the shrine claims that "The Yasukuni Shrine must be one and only memorial for Japan's military dead."

It is not a religious site but an obviously political one.

[Mike Cash]

You're letting your rage blind you.

I agree that the war criminals enshrined there are despicable people. And I think that politicians making visits is ill-advised, to say the least.

Just because you don't like their politics doesn't make it any less a religious site. Nor does it make the enshrinement any less religious an expression.

There are those in the world today who could make just as heated and just as (seemingly) pertinent arguments to rationalize asking the question, "Who thought up Islam and what can we do to eradicate it?"

We may not like what some or all adherents of a certain religion or faith subscribe to, but that doesn't make outside pressure to force them to change any less an expression of religious intolerance and bigotry.

It's no moral challenge to stand up for tolerance of that which doesn't offend us. The test is in standing up for that which does.

[sabro]

And to think that Shoeless Joe and Charlie Hustle can't get into Cooperstowm.

[qwertyu]

You're letting your rage blind you.

Rage? Please point out the "rage" bits. The bulk of my post was a cut and paste from wikipedia.


Just because you don't like their politics doesn't make it any less a religious site. Nor does it make the enshrinement any less religious an expression.

So? By adopting a blatant political stand, it opens itself to political charges. Just because it is a religious entity doesn't mean it cannot be criticised for its political role. You Americans do not seem to mind condemning Saudi Wahhabism and cracking down on it for its "extremism". So, are you interfering in Muslim religious freedom??

There are those in the world today who could make just as heated and just as (seemingly) pertinent arguments to rationalize asking the question, "Who thought up Islam and what can we do to eradicate it?"

At this juncture, I seriously question your sanity. The Chinese and Koreans ARE NOT SEEKING TO ERADICATE SHINTOISM. I need to cap this because you seem not to notice. How can anyone even make such an unbelievably stupid and outlandish "analogy"? That protesting the eulogising of a heinous invasion that killed 20 million and those who committed crimes against humanity tantamounts to infringing on shintoism?


We may not like what some or all adherents of a certain religion or faith subscribe to, but that doesn't make outside pressure to force them to change any less an expression of religious intolerance and bigotry.

Read this s l o w l y, since you seem to have difficulty in comprehension. Nobody, but not a soul, is asking the Japanese to change the religion of shintoism. Unless of course it is the religion of Shintoism, not just Yasukuni, that advocates and defends invasion and colonisation of other countries and killing civilians in the millions for a Greater Japanese Empire!

This isn't about religion per se, this protest is against the POLITICAL stance of Yasukuni Shrine summed up previously. Nobody gives a toss whether it is a Shinto or Buddhist or Falungong or Christian or Muslim or Hari Krishna Shrine. It is the highly offensive political manifesto and the entire WWII context of what Yasukuni says it represents that riles the former victims of Japan. Did anyone raise a ruckus about the shinto religion at all?

It's no moral challenge to stand up for tolerance of that which doesn't offend us. The test is in standing up for that which does.

Are you quoting Bush? This is complete gibberish. I'm perplexed. So, if something offends me, say, fascism or racism, the "moral challenge" or "test" for me is to stand up for it? How about since you are offended by the Chinese/Korean protests, you stand up for them? How about making the demand on the Japanese to defer to its former victims for a change, since this undoubtedly pains you?

It's not so much the so-called "rage", but your, um, brilliance that blinds.

[qwertyu]

It seems it even violates the peace treaties signed by Japan. From the Washington Times, a pro-Republican paper even:

http://tinyurl.com/aw73k

Minoru Morita, a political analyst in Tokyo, pointed to Article 11 of the post-World War II Treaty of Peace with Japan: "Japan accepts the judgments of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and of other Allied War Crimes Court."
�A�A�A�A"By accepting them, Japan was allowed to rejoin the international community and its independence was officially recognized," Mr. Morita said. Based on the premise of the 1951 treaty, Japan also signed peace treaties with China and South Korea.
�A�A�A�A"It is treaty violation" that a Japanese prime minister pays his respects at Yasukuni Shrine, Mr. Morita said. "So I have said he must stop doing so at any cost. Japanese politicians, however, think they are allowed because the U.S. does not say anything."

The bigger question may be why the US thinks it is in their interest to stoke this mischief. Divide and conquer?

[lexico]

Yasukuni issue ...
>Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

It is said there's no way for Shinto tradition.I'll make it quick, simple, and painless. To call Yasukuni Shintoism a long established religious tradition of Japan is the greatest piece of blatant lie that's been going around as much as the Tenno worship as a living god was a lie.
I'm not exactly going to debase myself by linking up the comical 'tradition' flash image, but we can rest assured Yasukini tradition dates no further back than 1869 (built as 招魂社)-1879 (renamed as 靖國社). It was an invented tradition just like the Taekwondo 太拳道 of Korea was invented during the time of Pres. Li, Sungman, or the Korean National Flag was conceived of in Sept. 1882 by Emperor Kojong 高宗; subsequently used for the first time on foreign soil, Kobe, during Bak Yonghyo's mission to Japan on Sept. 25, 1882.

Historical revisionists like Ashizu Uzuhiko criticises the occupation policy makers at the US Pentgon;

"They turned (state) shinto into a grotesque idol, and on that basis, applied pressure on the Japanes people who believed in it."

"The Japanese cultured collaborators helped the Ocupation Powers draw up the state shinto image which is nothing more than an ideoligical fabrication to confound the Japanese people."

Koyasu Nobukuni only relays the facts, but Ashizu has a point. The current fervor with Yasukuni shrine is an even more recent invention that's been jazzed up to negate, and in defiance of, the Allied Powers requirements of SCAP orders and the articles of San Francisco Peace Treaty 1952.

According to this interesting view by Mr. Ashizu, although contrary to his intentions, Yasukuni shintoism as we see it today has arguably a 12 year tradition if we can call it a tradition.

And what about the War Museum 遊就館, annex to the Yasukuni shrine, housing 10,000 pieces of weaponry including naval fighters and the last cannons from Okinawa ? It just keeps getting uglier as we look closer.

references:

Murakami Shigeyoshi 村上重良 [國家神道] 1970

"The national shinto is a national religion invented by the modern Tenno-ruled state; it dominated the minds of the Japanese people during the near 80 year period from the Meiji restoration to the Pacific War. This newly invented state religion of the late 19th century combined the two shintos of shrine shintoism and royal shintoism; employing the courtly rites as its base, it wove into its fabric the two rites of Ise and the shrine."

Murakami Shigeyoshi 村上重良 [天皇の祭社] 1977

"State shintoism was established during the Meiji 10's (1877-1886) when Japan sought to separate rites and religion and distinguised shrine shintoism from other religions and invented the state rite as a supra-religious state rite. This newly created state rite in content is a religion that directly associated royal shitoism and shrine shintoism, and precisely amounts to having all shrines submit to the religious authority of the Tenno."

Koyasu Nobukuni [Kokkato saishi] Seidosha 2004

[Mike Cash]

Rage? Please point out the "rage" bits. The bulk of my post was a cut and paste from wikipedia.




So? By adopting a blatant political stand, it opens itself to political charges. Just because it is a religious entity doesn't mean it cannot be criticised for its political role. You Americans do not seem to mind condemning Saudi Wahhabism and cracking down on it for its "extremism". So, are you interfering in Muslim religious freedom??

"You Americans"? I thought it was Mike Cash, individual, and some anonymous string of adjacent keyboard characters, individual, taking issue with each other on this.

You wish to interfere with the right of religious expression of some people, justify it on the ground you don't like their politics, and when the bigotry of this is pointed out you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?




Are you quoting Bush? This is complete gibberish. I'm perplexed. So, if something offends me, say, fascism or racism, the "moral challenge" or "test" for me is to stand up for it? How about since you are offended by the Chinese/Korean protests, you stand up for them? How about making the demand on the Japanese to defer to its former victims for a change, since this undoubtedly pains you?

I have said or intimated somewhere that I am offended by the Chinese/Korean protests? This is news to me. If you could point out any place that I have done any such thing, I would appreciate it. I also don't know where you get off making assumptions about what does or does not pain me in regards to the relations between Japan and her former victims. But you seem to be so fond of leaping to conclusions, making blanket statements, and putting words into other people's mouths that I suppose I really shouldn't be surprised.



It's not so much the so-called "rage", but your, um, brilliance that blinds.

Nah, what really blinds is your, um, lack of critical reading skills.

[qwertyu]

You wish to interfere with the right of religious expression of some people, justify it on the ground you don't like their politics, and when the bigotry of this is pointed out you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?

You have pointed out no such thing. You have not demonstrated the logic of how objection to the political stance of ONE particular shrine = bigotry and interference into the religious expression of Shintoism in general. Care to try it again?

you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?

I did no such thing either. I drew an analogy [a less rabid and offensive one than that which you proffered about the "pertinent" arguments for eradicating Islam no less!!] to illustrate my point to you since you seem to be the only one having a great battle separating the critique of a particular political stance adopted by one particular religious entity [eg. Al Qaeda or Yasukuni] from the larger religious context to which they belong [Islam and Shintoism]. The only one accusing others of religious bigotry here is none other but you.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind if someday, bin Laden's ashes, along with his top Al Qaeda lieutenants and the 11 9/11 kamikazes, are interred and glorified as demi-gods at a prominent Muslim mosque as martyrs to the cause of thwarting American evil crusade against Islam, and where high profile Muslim leaders regularly pay their respect. By your own logic, any objection to that would be interfering in the religious freedom of Muslims.

[qwertyu]

I have said or intimated somewhere that I am offended by the Chinese/Korean protests?

Since you equate protests against Yasukuni shrine visits with "basically wishing to deprive others of their freedom of religion" and "bigotry", in your words, I presume that the protests offend you, unless you yourself are not offended by said "deprivation" and "bigotry".

You know, if you say A=B and B=Very Bad Thing, then you are saying A=Very Bad Thing.

[Mike Cash]

Since you equate protests against Yasukuni shrine visits with "basically wishing to deprive others of their freedom of religion" and "bigotry", in your words, I presume that the protests offend you, unless you yourself are not offended by said "deprivation" and "bigotry".

You know, if you say A=B and B=Very Bad Thing, then you are saying A=Very Bad Thing.

There go your critical reading skills failing you again.

Where did I equate protests against Yasukuni shrine visits with wishing to deprive others of their freedom of religion?

It is one thing to protest. It is another thing to wonder "Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?", which is what my original remarks were addressed to. Would you care to tell me how to "de-shrine" people without depriving the people who "shrined" them of their freedom of religion?

[qwertyu]

Mike, you can't squirm out of this. My posts have always been about the right of victims to protest Yaukuni shrine and what it stands for. You accuse me of RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY without even explaining WHICH of my words did that. Read the following over and over again until you get the sort of tripe you accuse others in a knee-jerk way, will you??? This is what you posted and accused me of:

You wish to interfere with the right of religious expression of some people, justify it on the ground you don't like their politics, and when the bigotry of this is pointed out you defend yourself by questioning if I am interfering in Muslim religious freedom?

You clearly stated here MY OBJECTION TO YAUKUNI'S POLITICS = INTERFERENCE WITH THE RIGHT OF RELIGIOUS EXPRESSION = BIGOTRY

Are you not even literate enough to understand your own posts??????

You arrive at the CONCLUSION first and foremost that I am a BIGOT and wish to deprive the Japanese of their right of religious expression, the ONLY evidence you cite is that my objection to Yasukuni's politics. To recap, my objection to Yasukuni is that they declared WWII Japanese war criminals who were responsible for the murder of millions [judged no less by your own country] as heroes and martyrs, and that Japan, despite committing heinous war crimes, was a liberator, not an aggressor of Asia, a view vehemently offensive to its victims.

Does such an objection constitute religious BIGOTRY??? I need an answer, yes or no. If "no", you need to retract your accusation.


Another question that needs your answer. If Americans object to Muslims redefining and worshipping bin Laden and 9/11 perpetrators as liberators of Islam, on the grounds that they were not liberators but terrorists and 9/11 is a crime against innocent civilians, is that an act of interference in the freedom of expression and the religious rights of Muslims???

You claimed I accused you of interfering in Muslim religious freedom. This is preposterous as in this analogy, I am asking YOU if you would consider such an objection religious bigotry. The ball is in your court.

The remains of the Japanese Hitlers and Himmlers were NOT interred at the Yasukuni shrine until 1978. Those who enshrined them there and declaring them as heroes and gods are participating in a political act, as these were politicians, whether the enshriners be Buddhist or Shintos. The religion is immaterial. The act itself is political and abhorent to the victims of these men. If Yasukuni shrine had adopted the stance that the war was a crime and that these are war criminals but that they should nonetheless be buried there not as heroes but as sinners, the reaction from the victims might have been different. But the opposite is true!

Any decent person who does not feel that war criminals should be glorified would find this glorification of the Asian Holocaust objectional.

Either dis-inter the remains and build a separate memorial, Shinto or otherwise, which would deprive rightwingers of the excuse that they are paying their respects to all Japanese soldiers at Yasukuni, or change the political rhetoric. It is that simple, and does not detract from Shintoism itself. In fact, it can be argued that glorifying crimes against humanity and war criminals is a blight on what any decent religion should represent.

Objection to the latter is what every conscientious person should do. In your own words, a formidable "moral challenge" for you, no doubt.

[Tonysoong]

NHK (http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/dailynews.html) reported on May 16th, 2005Kǒng Zǐ of China said, 伯夷、叔齐不念旧恶，怨是用希.
Modern Chinese seem to feel that this kind of virtue does not necessarily apply to the 倭人 subhumans.

Forgiveness needs to be endorsed with hearty repentance

[qwertyu]

That's so true. What is there to forgive if the crime isn't even admitted???

[lexico]

May I rephrase yours into two sentences since the Japanese gov't and some of its citizens obviously seem to confuse the two ideas ?

1. Forgiveness reserves the right to endorse repentance, but should not, and cannot, be forced upon the vitcim.

2. Forgiveness reserves the right to examine the quality of repentance.

3. Please honor the spirit and letters of the Peace Treaty, represent historical events of aggression that are internationally accepted, and not push for military expansionism; violation thereof shall be considered insincere repentance.

[Tonysoong]

Originally Posted by DaMo
How did the remains of the war criminals get interred in the shrine in the first place? That's what I would like to know. Who approved it, and what madness possessed them to do so?

Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?

So basically you wish to deprive others of their freedom of religion?


Damo is asking questions that i think Japanese should have asked themselves. But regretfully, many of our Japanese friends like mikecash seem to have their unique way of defining religion. What is the the name of the Japanese religion of which honoring Class A war criminals is an indispensible part? Does killing civilians and raping women have to be part of that religion so that you don't need to repent?

If this whatever-you-may-call-it is your Japanese religion, please allow me to remind you that this religion does never serve maintenance of your soul. And even worse, Koreans and Chinese may need to invent their own religions to counter yours, say for the sake of world peace.

[Tonysoong]

May I rephrase yours into two sentences since the Japanese gov't and some of its citizens obviously seem to confuse the two ideas ?

1. Forgiveness reserves the right to endorse repentance, but should not, and cannot, be forced upon the vitcim.

2. Forgiveness reserves the right to examine the quality of repentance.

3. Please honor the spirit and letters of the Peace Treaty, represent historical events of aggression that are internationally accepted, and not push for military expansionism; violation thereof shall be considered insincere repentance.

Thanks, lexico, you make my meaning clearer.

[lexico]

No problem, Tony. Your first sentence has the strong, pursuasive ring to it, but I was just concerned that it might be too hard for some to grasp. :sorry:

As for Mike's argument, I'm hesitating to counter because I'm not sure of Mike's intentions. I'm trying to picture this thread as something close to a mock civil court: The Victims vs. Official Performance of Yasukuni rituals
case: Yasukuni rituals violate the victims in a symbolic manner causing pain and agony
advocates: members, members

It appears to me that member 名無し has taken leave unable to back up his/her defense, and taking pity upon the defendant, member Mikecash filled in to assist due legal process by representing the defensless defendant. I just hope we don't get carried away; nevertheless I shall take my turn presently. Nothing personal, Mike ! :wave:

[Tonysoong]

Mikecash seems a faithful religious defendent.

[Mike Cash]

Mikecash seems a faithful religious defendent.

Which is probably odd, considering I am a devout Atheist.

[Tonysoong]

Which is probably odd, considering I am a devout Atheist.

You are, though you are in blind defense of religious freedom.

[Iron Chef]

Since when was defending religious freedom a bad thing...? Maybe i've misconstrued your meaning here, not sure. Clue me in.

[Tonysoong]

Mikecash is just a little bit self-contradictory. He assists with the invention of the Jpapanese-specific religion which i termed as "whatever-you-may-call-it" , yet claiming himself to be atheist. Confusing, isn't it?

[kirei_na_me]

Maybe he is just more open-minded when it comes to accepting the fact that there are people from all kinds of religious backgrounds. Nothing wrong with that.

[qwertyu]

I am learning a great lesson here. You can conflate two completely different issues - the religion of Shintoism and objection to a nasty political act by one particular shrine - and convince people that it is one and the same as long as you claim it repeatedly and the audience is inclined to prefer your message.

How can anyone call this "defending religious freedom"?

I really know very little about Shintoism and desire enlightenment. Does Shintoism itself advocate the invasion and colonisation of another country/people? Does it excuse crimes against humanity committed by its adherents as long as it is perpetrated against another people in the name of one's country? I would guess the opposite, that most religions abhor avarice and violence, but if those are Shintoism's tenets, then indeed, I am against it because this position is plain wrong. However, if it is just the position of Yasukuni Shrine, and not that of Shintoism in general, then I am explicitly ONLY against that aspect of Yasukuni Shrine, and nothing at all against Shintoism, the religion.

Religion has been co-opted by politics throughout history. Just recently, the Vatican publicly apologised for its role in anti-semitism history and the German Catholic Church's tacit support of Nazism. Imperial Japan's kamikaze pilots were assured that they would be worshipped at Yasukuni Shrine for the sacrifice of their lives to further the terrible enterprise of creating a Japanese Empire enslaving all of Asia. Any chance that Yasukuni Shrine would apologize? As much chance as Japan acting like Germany, I suppose.

George Bush claims to be a devout Christian leader representing God's country, so is the invasion of Iraq a Christian act? Are critics of the Iraqi invasion attacking Christianity?

Are the thousands of auto-da-fe [burning at the stake of heretics] conducted by the Church's Inquisition in the Middle Ages representative of Christianity, and is any condemnation of it a deprivation of Christian rights?


I guess with some people, the two are the same. You are for it or against it, and if it is a religious entity, it can commit any act with impunity and any criticism of said act only means you are against religious freedom and "narrow-minded". That makes so much sense.

What a "moral challenge"!

[qwertyu]

While researching Shintoism [very little covered out there], I came across this very relevant column. It is well-argued, except I would point out that the Palestinian "terrorists" suicide bombers are fighting haplessly for their homeland from a position of military weakness and defense against an occupying power, whereas kamikazes were fighting a war of offense and aggression with the support of a very powerful military for the domination of other countries and peoples.

http://japanfocus.org/article.asp?id=088

[lexico]

Mike, before I jump in with an argument, I'd like to pose a simple question. Are you sure Damo's idea is going against 'freedom of religion' ?

How did the remains of the war criminals get interred in the shrine in the first place? That's what I would like to know. Who approved it, and what madness possessed them to do so ?

Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?It appears that DaMo is referring to the indivdual's natural and constitutional right to excercise 'freedom of religion.'So basically you wish to deprive others of their freedom of religion ?Your question seems to concern the state's freedom of religion, or am I mistaken ?
Then what happens when these two separate rights are in conflict ?
Which 'freedom of religion' takes precedence in legal power according to the constitution ? The individual's or the state's ?

[Mike Cash]

So some people would feel better if I said that forcing Yasukuni to "de-shrine" people would be to interfere with their right to freedom of speech rather than their right to freedom of religion?

I can't understand why Tony thinks it self-contradictory for me to be an Atheist yet at the same time believe in the freedom of religion.

[lexico]

Since when was defending religious freedom a bad thing...?You're absolutely right.
I can't understand why Tony thinks it self-contradictory for me to be an Atheist yet at the same time believe in the freedom of religion.Perhaps we can all remember Maciamo's thread, Can you play the devil's advocate? (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16949&highlight=devil%27s) and calm down a little ? :bluush:

[edit: This was to ask Tony not to pursue Mike's character, as it can be considered an invalid/irrelevant line of argumentation. But since Kireiname misunderstood, I think I must state it explicitly so as to prevent further confusion.]So some people would feel better if I said that forcing Yasukuni to "de-shrine" people would be to interfere with their right to freedom of speech rather than their right to freedom of religion?I think what bothered Mike was the impression that certain pressures from the outside to change certain Japanese ideas would be infringing on Japanese soverign rights to religious freedom, and I think we can all understand that.


DaMo's question is legitimate, however, because it deals with an internal matter.How did the remains of the war criminals get interred in the shrine in the first place? That's what I would like to know. Who approved it ...?Tony reasserts the question:Damo is asking questions that i think Japanese should have asked themselves. In fact there have been talks, requests, rejections, and lawsuits by individuals, both Japanese and foreign, all family or next of kin to the deceased because the government enshrined them in Yasukuni against the family's will.

In other words, there is sufficient cause to complain about the infringements on rights to the individual's freedom of religious belief of not having to accept governmental decisions to enshrine them, and to keep them enshrined, withtout their knowledge/consent and/or against their will.

[edit: In the above paragraph, "rights to individual freedom...against their will" was bolded and capitalized originally. Since Kireiname considers it confrontational, I've normallized the text to unbolded, uncapitalized.]

The material I have seen are scattered, and which appears to be only the tip of the iceberg. Let me find some more data and return to the subject.

One request of self-restraint: I'm also guilty of having made the mistake, but the flag of residence has NOTHING to do with the person. So please let us refrain from making personal remarks referring to the flag, or assumptions stemming from the flag. Thanks.

[kirei_na_me]

Perhaps we can all remember Maciamo's thread, Can you play the devil's advocate? (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16949&highlight=devil%27s) and calm down a little ? :bluush:

I think mike sounded very calm when he stated that?

I tend to think people are not calm when using caps and bold print.

[lexico]

Kireiname,

Sorry for not being clear. I was talking to Tony, actually. I also removed the caps and bolds. I hope that helps to reduce the tension. But what are caps and bolds for then ? How do I emphasize a point that I have made, that didn't seem to have gotten across ? :?

I am pointing out that DaMo's idea and Mikecash's idea are different ones and not necessarily in conflict with each other in principle (there is no evidence to that as far as the posts go, unless I have other personal knowledge of the two members which I don't), not becuase they have different views on 'freedom of religion' but because they are actually talking about different things. To discuss would definitely help us, including me, to understand better, but isn't it important that we are aware of such a difference ?

And one more thing, do you really perceive things all in terms of conflict, black and white ? I was not being sarcastic when I affirmed Iron Chef's opinion. But is that how you read me :?

[qwertyu]

Which is more important, calmness or REASON?

I guess maybe reason isn't as important as one's own PREFERENCE and very selective point of view.

And yes, caps are meant to emphasise points that are blatantly overlooked, the way they are used as headlines, for example. Last I checked, caps don't make any sounds either.

For all of mikecash's "calmness", though I would argue that accusing someone of bigotry isn't at all civil or calm, I'm afraid I still haven't received any answers to my questions and request for a retraction.

[qwertyu]

What puzzles me about the Japanese is this. Forget about asking them to feel empathy for other Asians for a moment. What do they feel when they see the kamikazes, young talented Japanese men with wives and children, used as propaganda props by the very entity that demanded them to needlessly sacrifice their young lives in the name of reprehensible values and ideology? The past 50 yrs showed that Japan, and other Asian nations, are capable of modernity and prosperity without colonising others or embarking on aggressive wars. What would the kamikazes, as dead spirits, say to the Japanese people? They died for a mistake? The powerful old men in government and the Yasukuni shrine sold them and us all a lie at the very worse, or at the very least, committed huge blunders. Perhaps it wasn't apparent 60 yrs ago, but certainly, we all know better today. So why aren't Japanese people condemning the lies propagated by Yasukuni Shrine? Why aren't they appalled? Is it because the truth is more unbearable? Is it because it is better to be wrong than to admit mistakes? Do they think it will demean their country? These are geniune questions to which no one seems to have answered.

[Mike Cash]

The answer to your hypothetical question regarding Osama should be readily apparent without specifically being answered. Just take the same principles I applied to the Yasukuni situation and apply them to your hypothetical. Principles which get applied differently on a case-by-case basis aren't worthy of being called principles. I've stated mine here, so the answer should be clear.

As for a retraction, don't hold your breath. I am not in the habit of apologizing for statements I make on the internet. I say what I think, put my name to it, and stand behind it.

Now perhaps you will do me the kindness of telling me how an outside power can forcibly "de-shrine" people whom others have enshrined without infringing upon their right to religious freedom and/or their right to freedom of political speech?

[Masa]

China and Korea should shut up.We keep giving much money over many years .

Yasakuni shrine is in Japan it's our culture .If Japanese person want to go he go.

Nothing to do with China or Korea .

Most Japanese don't care what China or Korea think. We only care what America think. Not interested in China or Korea thinking

[qwertyu]

Thank you Masa! you answer for your country admirably! banzai!

[qwertyu]

No, mikecash. NOTHING you have posted is apparent. You didn't answer any questions to back up your assertion that my criticising the unsavoury politics of a particular religious entity equals religious bigotry. It's rather cowardly to throw an accusation and insult and then run away without answering the request for substantiation.

[qwertyu]

Now perhaps you will do me the kindness of telling me how an outside power can forcibly "de-shrine" people whom others have enshrined without infringing upon their right to religious freedom and/or their right to freedom of political speech?

You give the Chinese and Koreans too much credit for what they can MAKE Japan do. How is anyone forcibly "de-shrining" the war criminals in Yasukuni Shrine? With threats of bombs? With sanctions? They are free to do it. Free to lie about history. Free to hold their former victims in contempt. Free to declare Japan never did wrong. But are their former victims then FREE to protest?

But then if you are not a hypocrite, you should also concede that accusing those who TALK about protest of Yasukuni politics and de-shrining of bigotry is ALSO infringing on their political right to free speech.

Discussion of de-shrining ISN'T the same as FORCING THE ACT.

Free speech should be equally available to those you like and those you don't.

The tenets of free speech, however, do not protect lies, libel, baseless accusations.

We are attempting a civil discourse here, but you feel pretty free to accuse others of bigotry without presenting a valid case. This is an abuse of the right to free speech.

[Mike Cash]

Uh....did you read the original post? The part asking what can be done to "de-shrine"? That implies it being done by outside coercion, and not by convincing the offending parties to give up their offensive behavior by getting them to come around to your way of thinking.

Have I said somewhere in this thread that no one is free to protest Yasukuni? You'll have a hard time finding a statement from me to back that up.

If you don't think that infringing on the religious freedom of others is bigotry, then console yourself that you're not a bigot. I'll go on considering such behavior bigotry, though. And I will feel free to call bigotry "bigotry".

[qwertyu]

The part asking what can be done to "de-shrine"? That implies it being done by outside coercion, and not by convincing the offending parties to give up their offensive behavior by getting them to come around to your way of thinking.
That implies no such thing. Others can very well suggest citizens' petitions, media discussions, law suits by families, the opposition party may raise a parliamentary vote, reversion to honour the surrender treaty, a whole host of possible, completely legitimate options, some of which have been attempted, which you are trying to stop from even being raised. So much for free speech.

Just because you don't come round to another person's thinking doesn't mean that you can persist in whatever you wish to do with impunity. If you falsely accuse me of bigotry in a larger context, I can take you to court for libel, where I can make the law stop you, just an example here. You don't ever need to change your mind but I have a legitimate, just recourse to right a wrong. Is this co-ercion?

Have I said somewhere in this thread that no one is free to protest Yasukuni?

Sure, I am free to protest Yasukuni, but then you called my protest bigotry. I have posted your very comments to that effect. Do you then support bigotry? You said no, then you are not supporting my right to protest. A=B=Very Bad Thing, etc..ad nauseum.

If you don't think that infringing on the religious freedom of others is bigotry, then console yourself that you're not a bigot. I'll go on considering such behavior bigotry, though.

This is the mother of strawmen. Sure, infringing on the religious freedom of others is bigotry. But how does talk on a thread infringe on freedom of worship of ANYONE? If the Yasukuni Shrine itself infringes on the right of someone else, is that then completely permissible?

First, you declare that you are not against others' right to protest Yasukuni's politics, BUT then you call that bigotry. You can't have it both ways. Either the protest is a right of free speech and thus not bigotry, or the protest is wrong, impermissible and is bigotry.


If you have ANY evidence that other than protesting against the POLITICS of Yasukuni, I have written something that offends the Shinto religion, post it! Surely you must relish the opportunity of proving you are right that I am a bigot.

[Ewok85]

"You Americans"? I thought it was Mike Cash, individual, and some anonymous string of adjacent keyboard characters, individual, taking issue with each other on this.

Mike Cash is now the offical spokesperson for the United States of America! Congrats on the promotion Mike!

[bossel]

Uh....did you read the original post? The part asking what can be done to "de-shrine"? That implies it being done by outside coercion, and not by convincing the offending parties to give up their offensive behavior by getting them to come around to your way of thinking.
Sorry, but this is not quite correct, the original post said:
Also, is there any way for the war criminals to be "de-shrined" somehow?
Now, to me, that doesn't exactly sound like or even imply "How can we [foreigners] force Japan to de-shrine war criminals."

[Mike Cash]

Right, force need not be involved. We'll just "de-shrine" human souls from a religious institution without the consent or cooperation of the institution. This will also not interfere with their religion. It must not, because if it did we would be bigots, and we can't stand to think of ourselves as such.

And for the guy with a name that comes from raking a finger across the keyboard....that Osama question is the mother of all strawmen. And if you want to sue me, that is your perfect right. I'll not be losing a lot of sleep worrying about it.

[qwertyu]

Ewok, the "You Americans" context is mine:

"You Americans do not seem to mind condemning Saudi Wahhabism and cracking down on it for its "extremism". So, are you interfering in Muslim religious freedom??"

This sentence is completely factual and accurate, unless mikecash isn't American, then I would omit the "You". Since 9/11, Americans have been condemning Wahhabism, a branch of Islam to which bin Laden belong, for preaching extremism and fanaticism. Nothing objectional to this sentence, it's just mikecash knee-jerking.

Since mikecash shirks away from this challenge, I shall take it on.

It is a valid rhetorical question and an analogy. If you can't even make out the difference between a rhetorical question and a strawman, I hope you are not teaching English in Japan!

Americans condemn 9/11 as a crime, and its perpetrators as criminals. Likewise, not only the victims of WWII, but the Allied Tribunal have condemned the invasion of Asia as a crime and the men responsible for the Asian Holocaust as war criminals. Glorifying of Al Qaeda and worshipping bin Laden would be considered abhorent to most Americans. Likewise for the Asians. Objection and protest against glorifying 9/11 and enshrining bin Laden and his kamikazes is only natural for Americans, and do not constitute religious bigotry against Islam. Likewise for Asians.

I have no interest in you, far less to dispense any further attention. I am using the libel example to illustrate yet another fallacy that you propagate, that you need to bring people round to your POV or it's coercion. One cannot always count on people to do the right, honourable thing, to take the high road or to empathise with their victims, to change their gut opinions or prejudices, as you have admirably illustrated, but one can seek protection from the law and resort to other legal, legitimate means to prevent harm [eg. lies, tawdry accusation, slander, smear] from being done to oneself. This isn't coercion, this is called justice.

On the internet, it is amply sufficient for me to defend myself against your accusations of bigotry by proving how groundless they are.

[Mike Cash]

You'd probably also have trouble proving how I had libelled somebody named "Qwertyu". Unless, of course, that is the name you go by in real life.

And I do wish you people would let me know when I am going to be called upon to be the official representative of all Americans so I can comb my hair and borrow a necktie from somebody first.

Assuming that I am somehow involved in oppressing some group of Muslims just because I am American makes just about as much sense as me assuming that the Chinese in this thread drove tanks over people in Tiananmen Square.

[qwertyu]

It really doesn't make a difference to me if you are American. I am only debating the points. I have very fond feelings for the US, having spent a significant formative part of my life there, and it pains me terribly to witness what has happened to it, from 9/11 to an illegal, brutal invasion, the corruption, the Abu Ghraibs. This is a seriously wrong trajectory and not the America that others looked up to.

I do not assume any such thing about you. I am simply drawing a parallel to illustrate how groundless it is of you to accuse me of bigotry and oppressing Shintoism.

Auf Wiedersehen!

[bossel]

Right, force need not be involved. We'll just "de-shrine" human souls from a religious institution without the consent or cooperation of the institution. This will also not interfere with their religion. It must not, because if it did we would be bigots, and we can't stand to think of ourselves as such.
Damo was asking a question, he did not demand forceful removal of their names (I'd consider removing them without consent of the involved religious institution as forceful).

Since these "human souls" have been put there rather late after WWII, what happened to them before? Free floating somewhere?
& if so, why not let them float free again? Can't be that bad.

Anyway, to me that's not the issue of Yasukuni. Let religious people adore whatever they want: pink elephants, the potato of life or dead humans.
The issue is the Japanese political elite & their stance regarding Yasukuni & the enshrined war criminals. Perhaps we should focus on that instead of the shrine itself.

[Mike Cash]

As I said, I think the politicians visiting Yasukuni is ill-advised, and I am phrasing that just as mildly as I know how. To be more blunt, I think it's <expurgated> stupid.

As to where the souls were all those years, I'll be damned if I know.

[qwertyu]

Now, I'm not much into the God business, but I can see myself adoring pink elephants....:-) where are those, bossel?

[名無し]

House of Representatives 162th Session, Budget Committee Log (May 16th) (http://www.shugiin.go.jp/itdb_kaigiroku.nsf/html/kaigiroku/001816220050516021.htm)　そういう中で、日中間の問題におきましても、靖国の問題 がお話出ましたが、これは私がかねがね申し上げておりますように、どの国でも戦没者に対する追悼を行う気持 ちを持っているはずであります。どのような追悼の仕方がいいかということを他の国が干渉すべきではないと私 は思っております。
　今日の日本の繁栄は、あの六十年前、過酷な戦争で日本国民も大きな犠牲を受けた、そして、当時、家族を持 ちながら、戦場には行きたくなかった方も心ならずも国家のために戦場に赴いて命を落とさなければならなかっ た、そういう方の犠牲の上に今日の日本の平和と繁栄があるのではないか。そういう戦没者に対して心からの追 悼の誠をささげるというのがなぜいけないのか、私は理解できません。そして、日本は二度と戦争をしてはいけ ないという気持ちでお参りをする。現に、六十年間日本は、二度と戦争にも巻き込まれず、戦争もしていないん です。そういうことに対して、靖国参拝してはいけない、この理由が私はわからないんです。
　民主党の中にも、靖国参拝すべしという議員がおられます。国民の中でも、すべきである、しない方がいい、 した方がいいといろいろな議論があります。しかも、中国が、胡錦濤国家主席との間でも、あるいは温家宝首相 との会談でも、靖国の問題が出ました。靖国参拝はすべきでないというお話もありました。しかし、今のような 理由を私は申し上げました。現に東条英機氏のＡ級戦犯の問題がたびたび国会の場でも論ぜられますが、そもそ も、罪を憎んで人を憎まずというのは中国の孔子の言葉なんです。
　私は、日本の感情として、一個人のために靖国を参拝しているのではありません。心ならずも戦場に赴いて命 を犠牲にした方々、こういう犠牲を今日の平和な時代にあっても決して忘れてはならないんだ、そういうとうと い犠牲の上に日本の今日があるんだということは、我々常に考えておくべきではないか。現在の日本というのは 、現在生きている人だけで成り立っているものではないんだ、過去のそういう積み重ねによって、反省の上から 今日があるわけでありますので、戦没者全般に対しまして敬意と感謝の誠をささげるのが、これはけしからぬと いうのはいまだに理由がわかりません。
　いつ行くか、適切に判断いたします。

[Tonysoong]

Really farcical for us to waste time and energy here debating over whether a third party needs to mend his way. It's his own business.

To put it in an impartial way, no culture is free from its barbaric traits. Like in China, they have what they call communism, which is (at least once was) no less brutal than militarism in a way. So if we can't expect China to develop a better conscience so as to reject communism, can we still be well-composed here advising Japan to develop any better conscience?

Some may ask, what else could be there to be called Japan if those war-ghosts were de-shrined? Yes, it IS a question. Japan IS Japan as Japan itself may know better.

[名無し]

Really farcical for us to waste time and energy here debating over whether a third party needs to mend his way. It's his own business.NHK news (http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/dailynews.html)Top Court Refuses Yasukuni Appeal

Japan's Supreme Court has rejected compensation claims over Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni Shrine in 2001, upholding rulings by lower courts.

The plaintiffs sued for compensation over Mr Koizumi's 2001 visit to the Shinto shrine, arguing that it violated the constitutional separation between the state and religion.

Presiding justice Isao Imai said no compensation was due, given that shrine visits by any officials of other parties do not infringe upon their rights.

He said a visit by the prime minister is no different.

Friday's decision marks the only time the Supreme Court has ruled on issues related to Mr Koizumi's visits to the Shinto shrine.

Yasukuni Shrine honors Japan's military war dead, as well as former Japanese leaders convicted of war crimes after World War Two.

The top court made no determination as to whether the prime minister's visits are constitutional nor whether they constitute official acts of state.

[changedonrequest]

Taken from the Japan Times http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20060721a1.html

An interesting debate is starting up with the upcoming annual Obon season. Koizumi is still planning to visit Yasukuni Shrine on August 15th while other politicans are wavering.

If the Emperor stopped visiting the shrine I would think that out of respect of that decision the PM should as well and I agree that a secular shrine should be built by Japan to honor the dead as well.

Friday, July 21, 2006

Hirohito visits to Yasukuni stopped over war criminals
Emperor Hirohito expressed strong displeasure in 1988 over Yasukuni Shrine's decision in the late 1970s to include Class-A war criminals on the list of people honored there, sources said Thursday, citing a memorandum by a former Imperial Household Agency official.
"That's why I have not visited the shrine since," the Emperor, known posthumously as Showa, told former Imperial Household Agency Grand Steward Tomohiko Tomita, according to a memorandum written by Tomita that was obtained by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun.
The sources said the Emperor was referring to his decision not to visit after the shrine decided in 1978 to honor the 14 Class-A war criminals, confirming Thursday's Nikkei article.
The memorandum confirms speculation by historians that the reason Emperor Hirohito refrained from visiting the shrine was because of its decision to honor the war criminals. He visited the shrine eight times after World War II, the last time in November 1975.
Asked about the report, Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe said the Imperial Household Agency did not have details on the matter, as the media report was based on a personal memo, adding, "I believe that the Imperial Household Agency handled Emperor Showa's visits to Yasukuni Shrine after careful consideration of the circumstances, such as the social conditions of the time."
Asked if the government will reconsider how to commemorate the war dead, Abe said the government will not comment on whether the Class-A war criminals should be enshrined elsewhere, and stressed that the state's position on the issue "remains unchanged."
"As for Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visits, that's for him to decide," said Abe, who supports Koizumi's contentious visits to Yasukuni. Abe added there is no change in his own stance of paying respect to those who have fought and sacrificed themselves for the country.
Yasukuni Shrine declined comment on the Nihon Keizai Shimbun report.
Tomita, who died in 2003, recorded conversations with the Emperor in his diaries, dating from 1975 through 1986, and journals, from 1986 to 1997, the sources said.
The entry about Yasukuni Shrine was dated April 28, 1988, they said.
"At some point, Class-A criminals became enshrined, including Matsuoka and Shiratori. I heard Tsukuba acted cautiously," the Emperor was quoted as saying in reference to wartime Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka and Toshio Shiratori, who became Japan's ambassador to Italy in 1938.
Tsukuba is believed to be Fujimaro Tsukuba, a former chief priest at Yasukuni who declined to honor the war criminals even after he received a list containing their names from the government in 1966.
"What's on the mind of Matsudaira's son, who is the current head priest?" the Emperor was also quoted as saying, noting the priest appeared to have quickly made the decision to honor the war criminals without giving the matter much thought.
"Matsudaira had a strong wish for peace, but the child didn't know the parent's heart. That's why I have not visited the shrine since. This is my heart," Tomita quoted the Emperor as saying.
Emperor Hirohito was apparently referring to Yoshitami Matsudaira, who was Imperial Household minister immediately following the end of World War II, and his son, Nagayoshi, the Yasukuni head priest who decided to enshrine the war criminals in 1978. The criminals were honored at the shrine in October 1978

[caster51]

If the Emperor stopped visiting the shrine I would think that out of respect of that decision the PM should as well and I agree that a secular shrine should be built by Japan to honor the dead as well.

I dont think so.
the ppl who want to go should go...

[caster51]

Quote:Friday, July 21, 2006

Hirohito visits to Yasukuni stopped over war criminals
Emperor Hirohito expressed strong displeasure in 1988 over Yasukuni Shrine's decision in the late 1970s to include Class-A war criminals on the list of people honored there, sources said Thursday, citing a memorandum by a former Imperial Household Agency official.
"That's why I have not visited the shrine since," the Emperor, known posthumously as Showa, told former Imperial Household Agency Grand Steward Tomohiko Tomita, according to a memorandum written by Tomita that was obtained by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun.
The sources said the Emperor was referring to his decision not to visit after the shrine decided in 1978 to honor the 14 Class-A war criminals, confirming Thursday's Nikkei article.
The memorandum confirms speculation by historians that the reason Emperor Hirohito refrained from visiting the shrine was because of its decision to honor the war criminals. He visited the shrine eight times after World War II, the last time in November 1975.
Asked about the report, Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe said the Imperial Household Agency did not have details on the matter, as the media report was based on a personal memo, adding, "I believe that the Imperial Household Agency handled Emperor Showa's visits to Yasukuni Shrine after careful consideration of the circumstances, such as the social conditions of the time."
Asked if the government will reconsider how to commemorate the war dead, Abe said the government will not comment on whether the Class-A war criminals should be enshrined elsewhere, and stressed that the state's position on the issue "remains unchanged."
"As for Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visits, that's for him to decide," said Abe, who supports Koizumi's contentious visits to Yasukuni. Abe added there is no change in his own stance of paying respect to those who have fought and sacrificed themselves for the country.
Yasukuni Shrine declined comment on the Nihon Keizai Shimbun report.
Tomita, who died in 2003, recorded conversations with the Emperor in his diaries, dating from 1975 through 1986, and journals, from 1986 to 1997, the sources said.
The entry about Yasukuni Shrine was dated April 28, 1988, they said.
"At some point, Class-A criminals became enshrined, including Matsuoka and Shiratori. I heard Tsukuba acted cautiously," the Emperor was quoted as saying in reference to wartime Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka and Toshio Shiratori, who became Japan's ambassador to Italy in 1938.
Tsukuba is believed to be Fujimaro Tsukuba, a former chief priest at Yasukuni who declined to honor the war criminals even after he received a list containing their names from the government in 1966.
"What's on the mind of Matsudaira's son, who is the current head priest?" the Emperor was also quoted as saying, noting the priest appeared to have quickly made the decision to honor the war criminals without giving the matter much thought.
"Matsudaira had a strong wish for peace, but the child didn't know the parent's heart. That's why I have not visited the shrine since. This is my heart," Tomita quoted the Emperor as saying.
Emperor Hirohito was apparently referring to Yoshitami Matsudaira, who was Imperial Household minister immediately following the end of World War II, and his son, Nagayoshi, the Yasukuni head priest who decided to enshrine the war criminals in 1978. The criminals were honored at the shrine in October 1978



some mass media announced this memo migit be faked.

[caster51]

Arthur Waldron
http://suzuroku.iza.ne.jp/news/newsarticle/column/other/10482/

[Han Chan]

It seems that the public in Japan has been influenced by the late Showa Emperor's point of view regarding the Yasukuni Shrine. Now 54% are against the PM visiting!

I made a new thread about this:

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25128

[ricecake]

The one million dollar question is,do traditionally conformist-minded Japanese population influence policies in Japan ?

Japan often superficially presents itself as a modern democracy,but limping like a " 4th Worlder handicap " in terms of democratic practices in my book.

[名無し]

some mass media announced this memo migit be faked.This year's trend is to use emperor to bash class A war criminals. Yet another one here:

Hirohito Cited Tojo in U.S. Strike (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200607260710.html)The emperor replied that it had never been his intention for the declaration of war to be issued to American officials hours after Japanese aircraft bombed Pearl Harbor. He said that decision was made by Tojo, a Class-A war criminal who was later hanged.
Although that might have been Japan's official stance at that time, it is known to be untrue now: MOFA admitted its incompetence in 1994, as mentioned in the past post (http://www.jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=281412).

Whoever wrote the article in Asahi and the one who approved it are either
� clueless about the topic and didn't even know the 1994 MOFA document
or
� knowingly smear Tojo with a false accusation to fool readers.

It is after all red Asahi.

[nurizeko]

What to do about Yasukuni?

Ignore it and get on with our lives.

[gs001]

Ignore it and get on with our lives.
If German government build a war death memorial and move
statues of Hitler and his complice in, and German chancellor visit there every year, will European Ignore it and get on with your lives?

[changedonrequest]

If German government build a war death memorial and move
statues of Hitler and his complice in, and German chancellor visit there every year, will European Ignore it and get on with your lives?

It's a good point perhaps, but they didn't and Japan did.

Another thing I have recently become curious about is why the relatively sudden dispute about Yaskuni?

Haven't the PM's of Japan been going to Yasukuni since the end of the occupation by the USA or at least since the 60's?

Why weren't other countries protesting before, at least about the internment of the Class A war criminals, when the memories were much more "fresh", rather than now 60 years after the war?

[leonmarino]

Haven't the PM's of Japan been going to Yasukuni since the end of the occupation by the USA or at least since the 60's?Well, many PM's have visited the shrine, but not all of them and Koizumi is the first one to visit it five years in a row, making it almost an official annual visit. When being asked if he visits the shrine as a private person or as the PM of Japan, he hasn't given a straight answer, which might be contradicting with the division of state and religion.

[changedonrequest]

Well, many PM's have visited the shrine, but not all of them and Koizumi is the first one to visit it five years in a row, making it almost an official annual visit. When being asked if he visits the shrine as a private person or as the PM of Japan, he hasn't given a straight answer, which might be contradicting with the division of state and religion.

Well this year will be his last one, so hopefully things will settle down.

I am aware of the division of church and state issues as well as the "private" person statements that he makes.

That only gives a partial answer to my question. Where were the protests before Koizumi? It almost seems hypocritical to have people that had no experience with the Japanese during WWII to be protesting the visits now.

[caster51]

If German government build a war death memorial and move
statues of Hitler and his complice in, and German chancellor visit there every year, will European Ignore it and get on with your lives?

what is japan related with Hittler.?
sorry i cant imagin what are you talking.
Hittler killed Jew that have a noting to do with War.
against what contry did nazi fight ?
ir was merely ethnic cleanup
there is a Napoleon memorial ,,

[leonmarino]

?
what is japan related with Hittler.?
sorry i cant imagin what are you talking.
Hittler killed Jew that have a noting to do with War.
against what contry did nazi fight ?
ir was merely ethnic cleanup
there is a Napoleon memorial ,,
Hitler exploited the jewish people both financially and physically, in labour camps and death camps.. It has a lot to do with the war. In any case, even if it the holocaust didn't have anything to do with the war, the German counsellor visiting a Hitler memorial would be unthinkable of, as Hitler was responsible as the leader of the country: a war criminal A++.

There is nothing wrong with commemorating the war dead I guess, but it's a bit tricky when war criminals are involved. War criminals, as the name suggests, are criminals. So was Robin Hood but these people didn't steal from the rich and give to the poor, these men were responsible for major massacres and seriously bad stuff.

I know Caster that you don't care about what the overwhelming majority of the historical books and other sources say about Japan's wrong-doing during the WW2 period, but let's assume that these men are responsible for the ruthless killing and raping of Nanking and other stuff. Can you imagine why people might be offended by a PM commemorating these men? The same way a Hitler-memorial would be highly offensive and wrong.

Now you do have a point in mentioning the existence of a Napoleon memorial as he wasn't momma's little sweetheart either. But Napoleon had contributed a lot to the forming of Europe; the Code Napoleon is a civil code system that is the basis of many systems of law in Europe, and he abolished feudalism and serfdom, and established freedom of religion, all in the spirit of the French Revolution, in which he also played a key role at some point. In short: Napoleon has contributed something positive to the world as it is today. What have the war criminals contributed except for a shamefully dark page in human history?

Hachiro: I have no idea what caused the renewed interest in the shrine and the PM's visits.. Maybe the protests were there all along, but the media coverage was lacking?

[changedonrequest]

Hachiro: I have no idea what caused the renewed interest in the shrine and the PM's visits.. Maybe the protests were there all along, but the media coverage was lacking?

Thank you....I've been living here for 20 years and it has been within the past 5 years or so that Korean's and Chinese people have been protesting the visits to Yasukuni Shrine.

I want to know why people didn't protest previous to that. Something just doesnt seem right.

[nurizeko]

If German government build a war death memorial and move
statues of Hitler and his complice in, and German chancellor visit there every year, will European Ignore it and get on with your lives?
Irrelivent, Germany isnt Japan, isnt Yasakuni, and the Chancellor doesnt honour the war criminals, you still hang onto the flawed ignorance of the fact the vast majority of souls at Yasakuni are honourable war-dead, which is the people the Japanese PM actually visits for, claiming otherwise is merely ****-stirring for lack of a better term on your part.
Also to be bluntly honest I wouldnt care, Hitler has been dead a good 60+ years now, I quite frankly wouldnt care, it seems Asians are much like the mythical dwarves in this respect, holding bitter blood grudges a long time after the events have occured.
The war-criminals were charged and put to death, they have been punished, and their names forever dishonoured, it matters not any longer where their remains/souls rest, the fact is they are dead, in this life or the next they have suffered the fate they have earned for whatever actions they have done in life.
Knowing this, the mouth frothing rage from some Asians is merely a mis-guided illogical and unjustifiable act on their part, they werent alive durring the war, and most Chinese at least could probably have more argument with Mao, or whoever else, Japans acts in China have only been one of many pointless conlficts the Chinese have inflicted upon themselves/been involved in for whatever reason.
My grandfather fled from Germany and settled in the UK because of the war, I suppouse I should get in a total rage over it and make demands on Germany and the German people until I'm satisfied.
Chances are I have more connection to the war then you either way.
And yet knowing this I still sont care, I dont particularily know why I dont care, merely that I dont.
If anything I have respect and admiration of Germany because thats half of my "roots".
How old are you?....it doesnt matter, I am convinced beyond a doubt the war was already a fading memory by the time you were born, why you and those like you chose to get in a rage over a shrine is illogical and beyond me, I have just as much right to hate on a neighbouring country as you yet I dont.
Whats your excuse?, really.
Germany still has buildings and landmarks that were around durring the Nazi regime, yet france doesnt call for their demolishion, German soldiers lie in Military graveyards and memorials, Britain doesnt froth at the mouth for their desecration.
Even European war criminals were given proper burials.
Stop hanging onto the past, remember the lessons it taught, but dont hang onto the old bitterness which no lnoger has justification, the war is long over, its participants dead, all its doing is tainting modern relations.

I want to know why people didn't protest previous to that. Something just doesnt seem right.

Its political and nationalistically motivated, nothing else.

It works for America, when morale is down just beat up on the "skinnies" or "towel heads", in Britain, its about comming down on perceived loose immigration and the dirty foreigners taking advantage of the cracks.

What better way to prop the Chinese regime/Give Koreans some higher morale then to hate on a neighbour and demonise them.

Its been a trait of nations since time began, best way to fight a war is to make your people think of the enemy as near inhuman.

I dont reckon this case will start a war, but it helpsnational morale in a way, though I personally think in a pretty immature and primitive fashion.

[caster51]

Hitler exploited the jewish people both financially and physically, in labour camps and death camps.. It has a lot to do with the war.
japan never killed like that ppl
many of jew was German. why jew was killed?
which contry did they belong to?
In any case, even if it the holocaust didn't have anything to do with the war, the German counsellor visiting a Hitler memorial would be unthinkable of, as Hitler was responsible as the leader of the country: a war criminal A++.
there is no ctiminal befor WW2 on the war.
war is rights of nation.
I know Caster that you don't care about what the overwhelming majority of the historical books and other sources say about Japan's wrong-doing during the WW2 period, but let's assume that these men are responsible for the ruthless killing and raping of Nanking .
bring the evidences of pics
what hell is that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongzhou_Incident
The Tongzhou Incident appears mostly in Japanese far-right literature, and very rarely in Western, Chinese and other sources. Chinese historians believe that the right-wing organizations in Japan use this incident to downplay the atrocities committed by the Imperial Army in the Nanjing Massacre upon the citizens
there are many doccument at that times.
Now you do have a point in mentioning the existence of a Napoleon memorial as he wasn't momma's little sweetheart either. But Napoleon had contributed a lot to the forming of Europe; the Code Napoleon is a civil code system that is the basis of many systems of law in Europe,
killing is killing. dont you think so?
I said japan killed many chinese soldiers as a battle in nanking
there are many 便衣兵　who pretend civillian like vietnam war.
many civilians become victimes like hiroshima

[caster51]

if I have a chance, I would visit their memorials.
we fought to protect our motherland.
why do not respect each other as a former enemy.

[changedonrequest]

?

what is japan related with Hittler.?
sorry i cant imagin what are you talking.
Hittler killed Jew that have a noting to do with War.
against what contry did nazi fight ?
ir was merely ethnic cleanup
there is a Napoleon memorial ,,

So are you suggesting that Japan erect a memorial to Tojo?

Japan killed many that had nothing to do with the war as well, that still doesnt justify the points you are trying to make.

[caster51]

So are you suggesting that Japan erect a memorial to Tojo?
there is no ashes of deceased ,remains , mortuary tablet and monument of tojo in yasukuni.
we just believe they are there.
it is pure religious thing.
how can we divide.
it is ok to divide their soul.
it means thier soul is getting spread evrywhere

[caster51]

Japan killed many that had nothing to do with the war as well, that still doesnt justify the points you are trying to make
because of WAR
your logic is completely for victers

please tell me if there is no victims of civilian

[caster51]

Japan killed many that had nothing to do with the war as well, that still doesnt justify the points you are trying to make
japan did not kill them indiscriminately like nazi did against Jew even it was a WAR
and Yes, tojo was nominated in jewish Golden honor book
there is no ppls who want to visit for praise them.
just pray for peace
worship?
it must be wrong transletion of 参拝

[changedonrequest]

japan did not kill them indiscriminately like nazi did against Jew even it was a WAR


Tell that to the P.O.W.'s in the camps run by the Japanese Army.

THe list goes on, the point is not Hilter or Germany Caster, but Japan and Yasukuni.

Whether or not Koizumi goes as a "private" person or otherwise, he is the leader of Japan. He doesnt give up that leadership, even when he is on vacation.

He very well knows how Japan's neighbors feel about the whole situation and yet he continues to aggravate them.

Okinawa has one, one for the entire country would be wise as well.

[gs001]

if I have a chance, I would visit their memorials.
we fought to protect our motherland.
why do not respect each other as a former enemy.
I know there are a lot of people in Japan always want to
challenge the recognized principle of the world.
maybe that is why Japanese were hated.
western always blame China for our military modernization
but if you have a neighbor stiffly believe it is their
"right" to "pretect his motherland" by invading other's
territory, what will you do?

[caster51]

if you have a neighbor stiffly believe it is their
"right" to "pretect his motherland" by invading other's
territory, what will you do?
to make some enemy is american policy.
so is china....
china need an enemy to get strong nationalism.
it is a illusion. however politics need it to unify
japan dose not need an enemy.
is there any real enemy against china?
what dose china protect ? who is an enemy againt china?

[pipokun]

I know there are a lot of people in Japan always want to
challenge the recognized principle of the world.
maybe that is why Japanese were hated.
western always blame China for our military modernization
but if you have a neighbor stiffly believe it is their
"right" to "pretect his motherland" by invading other's
territory, what will you do?
It is fair that your government modernize her amy or engulfs tons of natural resources around the world, but I just hope that she should refrain from selling arms to poor nations. You have lots of other products you can sell to them.

Tell that to the P.O.W.'s in the camps run by the Japanese Army.
...

Just check what the POWs' nations did to the evil Japanese incl. Taiwanese and Koreans belonging to the army after the war.
For example, do you think letting you eat gobo burdocks is an intolerant abuse to deserve to death?

[leonmarino]

killing is killing. dont you think so?Yes, killing is killing and killing is bad. But Napoleon isn't commemorated for his killings but rather his other achievements. What did the Rapers of Nanking achieve?

[changedonrequest]

Just check what the POWs' nations did to the evil Japanese incl. Taiwanese and Koreans belonging to the army after the war.
For example, do you think letting you eat gobo burdocks is an intolerant abuse to deserve to death?

pipokun, I'm sorry but I don't follow what you are refering to here. My response was to caster and his insinuating that the Japanese Imperial Army was not guilty of executing innocents.

Now I got it, brain wasn't functioning too well last night it seems. Thanks:wave:

[gs001]

to make some enemy is american policy.
so is china....
china need an enemy to get strong nationalism.
it is a illusion. however politics need it to unify
japan dose not need an enemy.
is there any real enemy against china?
what dose china protect ? who is an enemy againt china?
If most of Japanese have the same idea like you,
Japan definitely is our enemy.
now you are under the pressure of USA and dare not to
do anything, but we must prepare for the day when USA
collapse and you dare to "protect your motherland"
again. I hope at that time China will have enough
strength not only defeat Japanese invasive army
but also be able to liberate your Islands just like
what Soviet Union did to Germany in WWII.

[ricecake]

Hachiro: I have no idea what caused the renewed interest in the shrine and the PM's visits.



It was former PM Nakasone revived the annual visits to Yasukune Shrine in the late 1980's.

Tojo's granddaughter financed and personally scripted a film in 2000 to " superficially cleaned " his name by falsely proclaimed Pacific War never was fought and Tojo was never found guilty as mass media suggested.

[gs001]

caster51, you define a war which Japanese invaded
dozens of countries and caused dozens of million of
people's death as a war to "protect your motherland"
and believe you have the "right" to do so, that
has broken the bottom line of human morality.
terrible Japanese!

[Han Chan]

caster51, you define a war which Japanese invaded
dozens of countries and caused dozens of million of
people's death as a war to "protect your motherland"
and believe you have the "right" to do so, that
has broken the bottle line of human morality.
terrible Japanese!

Only a minority of japanese support the right-wing nationalistic point of view that the war was justifiable and was merely to protect the motherland. So, it is unfair to call the japanese: terrible! When you let yourself become provocated by caster, please remember that there are many peaceloving people in Japan who do not agree with people like caster!

[changedonrequest]

Only a minority of japanese support the right-wing nationalistic point of view that the war was justifiable and was merely to protect the motherland. So, it is unfair to call the japanese: terrible! When you let yourself become provocated by caster, please remember that there are many peaceloving people in Japan who do not agree with people like caster!

However what is particularly scary though is the fact that the Education ministry in it's wisdom is working very hard at downplaying the entire portion of Japanese history that is centered around WWII.

More people like Caster are going to be born and what do we do then?

[UmaScum]

However what is particularly scary though is the fact that the Education ministry in it's wisdom is working very hard at downplaying the entire portion of Japanese history that is centered around WWII.

More people like Caster are going to be born and what do we do then?

History ought to reflect the contributions a society makes to its peoples and the world. It should not be some pandering on of what other countries may want other countries to do.

In the case of Japan, the Japanese people have no interest in what happened to Nanking simply because denial is strongly interwoven into the psycho/social make up the the people ; e.g. "saving face" and " never accepting accountability" are all considered a cultural norm by most Japanese.

The revisionist textbooks that were written by the Reform society are totally in line with what needs to be taught. Germany was never/ never will be a shining example of what a country should be.

prior to WW2 Japan had never known defeat for over 2600 years. This frame of thought had been apart of the Japanese peoples.

[ricecake]

Oh ... osias,is that you or mistaken ? :p

[pipokun]

It was former PM Nakasone revived the annual visits to Yasukune Shrine in the late 1980's.
...
PM Nakasone? Rivived the annual visits? Wrong.
Prime Ministers before Nakasone had visited at the shrine, and your government did not oppsed it at all.

PM Nakasone suspended his visit in order to save your liberal leader, Hu Yaobang's face. But it was a great loss for many people that Mr. Hu lost his position after all.

[ricecake]

My US government didn't opposed it,come again ?

FYI ... My president is George Walker Bush Jr :worried:

I've never lived in mainland China/Taiwan/HK,my family left that country back in the 1870's.Many overseas born full blood ethnic Chinese aren't fond of Japan either,don't solely blame Chinese mainlanders for anti-Japan bashings.

[caster51]

Tell that to the P.O.W.'s in the camps run by the Japanese Army.

japan did not educated them well
http://sea.ap.teacup.com/nikkeif/img/1149903918.jpg
truth was some kind of like that.
anyway who did that accuracy ww

german ,russian POws in japan
http://www.bart-movie.jp/

[caster51]

how many times do you belive ccp propagandas.

How about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TVKeuBYCc&search=propaganda%20japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEIGQpK6VVE&search=propaganda%20japan

you gays still brainwashing?

plesase show me the doccument and disscuss.
you guys aer just complaining emotionaly

education is nothing to do with me.
because I failed that. LOL

[caster51]

education in bruma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SxAQMNtw70&search=%E3%83%93%E3%83%AB%E3%83%9E
how are Myanmar ppls taught about that.

do you know thire army march:cool:

[ricecake]

:lol: ... Here comes caster's presentation of amateur videos for laughs,you never could write analytical posts base on factual history.

FYI .... nearly zero Overseas Chinese take CCP's news propaganda machine seriously,only ignorant foreigners think we're brainwashed for the truth is great majority of us are anti-Communist ( PRC ) at heart.

[caster51]

what is yours?
nothing?:blush: :blush:

[ricecake]

I've respect for factual history,unlike someone spams threads with " doctored " cut/paste articles and unacademic youtube.com videos.

[caster51]

Video is mightier than the pen :cool:
I've respect for factual history,unlike someone spams threads with " doctored " cut/paste articles and unacademic youtube.com videos.:blush:

[ricecake]

Video is migher than the pen



Oh .... it's pure propaganda you highly value,then your posts @ Jref amount to " garbage " catagory basically.

Words of a self-confessed Japanese propagandist :smash: :lol:

[caster51]

it's pure propaganda you highly value,then your posts @ Jref amount to " garbage " catagory basically.

it makes an evident. LOL

BTW where is yours ?

[caster51]

it's pure propaganda you highly value,then your posts @ Jref amount to " garbage " catagory basically.

Yes, chinese education......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLRRI3kn3vo&search=%E3%80%80%E6%95%99%E7%A7%91%E6%9B%B8

[pipokun]

My US government didn't opposed it,come again ?
FYI ... My president is George Walker Bush Jr :worried:
I've never lived in mainland China/Taiwan/HK,my family left that country back in the 1870's.Many overseas born full blood ethnic Chinese aren't fond of Japan either,don't solely blame Chinese mainlanders for anti-Japan bashings.
Needless to say, the govenment I meant above is not the US.
And I know some immigrants tend to be fanatically nationalistic.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

caster51-san,
You watch only information convenient for oneself.
The book which I recommend to you.

Essence of failure
An organization theory study of the Japanese armed forces
失敗の本質 - 日本軍の組織論的研究

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/4122018331.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Nomonhan Japan Against Russia, 1939
Alvin D. Coox
ノモンハン　草原の日ソ戦 1939

[ricecake]

caster51-san,

You read only information convenient for oneself.



Here is one occasional :nihonjin: voice of rational.:heyhey:

[caster51]

You watch only information convenient for oneself
Essence of failure
An organization theory study of the Japanese armed forces
失敗の本質 - 日本軍の組織論的研究.
sorry I cant understand.
what book is that?
why does it come from
at least they cant give me any information about pows.
then i want to discuss about that.
I dont need emotional comment.
I need a document.

[leonmarino]

sorry I cant understand.
what book is that?
And as if my magic, suddenly his ability to read and comprehend failed.. :D

[caster51]

what doccument do you have?:-)
that is one of books of informations....
poor man.

[ricecake]

suddenly his ability to read and comprehend failed.. :D



Aha ............ It's true,Japanese right-wing political circle has ownership to the word " dementia " :lol:

[caster51]

http://sea.ap.teacup.com/nikkeif/img/1149903918.jpg
maybe it is againt this book of information about POWS?:blush:
その日の締めくくりとして、コリア人に引き合わされた 。
彼らは（日本人に比べ）大型で、顔は平たく、知性に劣 り、日本人が与えた屈辱を我々に転嫁した。
どんなに試みても、我々は彼らと本当の付きあいは確立 できず、体罰となると、日本兵よりも彼らをはるかに恐 れた。http://sea.ap.teacup.com/nikkeif/img/1145029997.jpg

[caster51]

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4531080548/249-6694251-8985910?v=glance&n=465392
日本人戦犯の責任を軽減するつもりはないが、占領地域 で最も嫌われたのは、このころ日本国籍を持っていた朝 鮮人だったことに注意しておかなければならない

In kongkong...
http://mikomo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/u-f2.htm
謝永光著 chinese auther
ほとど人の手先となって悪事を働いていた朝鮮人であっ た。
当時香港住民は日本軍に対すりももっと激しい憎悪の念 を彼らに抱いた
http://nandakorea.sakura.ne.jp/img/spiral.jpg
who are the most of B and C criminals ?

[ricecake]

Here comes caster51's ( Uyoku ) :car: ok ... ok ... you're a self-promote propagandist,we now believe you're one indeed.


hehe .... :lol: .... hehe ..... ghosts of Japan Militarism in your bones :shiver:

[caster51]

ok ... ok ... you're a self-promote propagandist,we now believe you.

you are only emotional propagandalist :blush:

[caster51]

Bush contacted japannese Department of Foreign Affairs to visit yasukuni afew years ago.
japan thanked him and refused him politely to visit bacause it would make him a trouble.
in the past...
http://photo.jijisama.org/YasukuniG.html
http://photo.jijisama.org/YasukuniY.html
http://www1.odn.ne.jp/~aal99510/yasukuni/nenpyo_2.htm

昭和20（1945）年1月 満州国 王充郷・駐日大使
昭和21（1946）年3月22日 米国 GHQ　ロバート・G・ガード氏
昭和29（1954）年4月26日 （国連） 首席参謀　ターレント陸軍大佐
昭和31（1956）年4月19日 中華民国 張道藩・立法院院長一行
昭和31（1956）年5月17日 ビルマ（現ミャンマー） 政府最高顧問　ウー=ティ=テイラ大僧正
昭和33（1958）年2月4日 パナマ リカルド=マルティニェラ駐日大使
昭和34（1959）年4月5日 トルコ エテム=メンデレス国防大臣（副首相）
昭和35（1960）年3月23日 ビルマ（現ミャンマー） ウー=ヌー前首相
昭和36（1961）年12月15日 アルゼンチン フロンディシ大統領夫妻
昭和38（1963）年2月11日 フランス 海軍練習艦隊司令官　ストレリー海軍大佐以下候補生乗組員
昭和38（1963）年6月4日 タイ プミポン国王夫妻（名代：中村元司令官）
昭和38（1963）年6月25日 米国 空軍士官学校士官候補生一行
昭和39（1964）年6月3日 インドネシア 大使館付武官　イマム=サルジョノ海軍中佐
昭和39（1964）年9月20日 ビルマ（現ミャンマー） タイセン労働大臣
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昭和40（1965）年4月16日 タイ 海軍練習艦隊司令官　パントム海軍少将一行
昭和40（1965）年7月10日 アルゼンチン 海軍練習艦リベルタッド号艦長オスカルモヘ海軍中佐以 下海軍士官候補生
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海軍練習艦隊艦長　エンリケ=ヴェリア海軍大佐以下
昭和41（1966）年5月30日 チリ モランビオ駐日大使
チリ海軍練習艦隊エスメラルダ号艦長　ロベルト=ケリー中佐以下
昭和41（1966）年10月29日 米国 沖縄民政府政治顧問　ジェームス=マーチン夫妻
昭和43（1968）年6月25日 ブラジル 海軍練習艦隊　クストディオ=デ=メーロ号
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昭和43（1968）年9月6日 ブラジル ドンジャイネ・カトリック司教
昭和43（1968）年12月2日 西ドイツ 連邦軍総監　ウイリッヒ=メズィエール陸軍大将
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昭和45（1970）年7月2日 アルゼンチン 海軍練習艦リベルタッド号艦長エミリオ=エリワード=マセーラ海軍大佐以下
昭和46（1971）年3月26日 パプア-ニューギニア M.T.ソマレ氏国会議員
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昭和47（1972）年3月15日 イスラエル 情報副部長　ギルボア准将
昭和47（1972）年3月21日 スペイン 海軍練習艦隊ファン=セバスチャン=エル=カー号
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昭和47（1972）年10月19日 イタリア 駐日武官　R.ドルランディ空軍准将
西ドイツ 駐日武官補佐官　クウス=ボルツェ陸軍少佐
ブラジル 駐日武官　J.B.フアリア海軍大佐
アルゼンチン 駐日武官　T.N.オリーヴァ海軍大佐
昭和48（1973）年1月28日 西ドイツ 陸軍総監　エルネスト=フェルバー陸軍中将
昭和48（1973）年2月14日 南ベトナム バオダイ殿下（ベトナム元皇帝）
昭和48（1973）年3月3日 ペルー 海軍練習艦隊　アレハンドロ=ペレス=ルイス艦長以下乗 員60人
昭和48（1973）年5月14日 チリ 空軍士官学校研修団　団長フアン=シューエン空軍少将以下
昭和48（1973）年6月4日 ソ連 ビクトル.V.マエフスキー　プラウダ論説委員
昭和48（1973）年11月7日 トンガ タウファハウ=ツポウ4世国王
昭和49（1974）年2月19日 フランス 海軍ヘリ空母ジャンヌ=ダーク号ベリエール艦長以下
同海軍駆逐艦フォーバンエドワード艦長以下
昭和49（1974）年4月8日 米国 駐日大使館付武官　リチャード=ネルソン=スタンダード大佐以下
昭和49（1974）年10月28日 インド G.S.デロン大佐以下
昭和50（1975）年11月8日 ビルマ（現ミャンマー） ウー=ボー=レーサ農業大臣
昭和52（1977）年3月7日 フランス 海軍練習艦ジャンヌ=ダルク号艦長ステファーノ=ボーサン海軍大佐
海軍フォルバン号艦長ジョンノエル=プーリカン氏
駐日大使館付武官　アンドレ=ルメール海軍大佐
昭和52（1977）年3月26日 英国 クワイ河再会団（大戦中、泰緬鉄道建設に従事）
精神科医　W.H.オールチン博士
昭和52（1977）年9月4日 タイ 国軍副司令官　クリアン=サック大将以下
昭和52（1977）年9月19日 西ドイツ 駐日大使館付新任武官　カール=ハインリッヒタルス氏
駐日大使館退任武官　ペーター=フシュミット氏
昭和52（1977）年11月22日 アルゼンチン 空軍士官學校　ヘスス.C.カペリーニ氏以下
昭和54（1979）年10月28日 インド カルカッタ市　チャンドラボース=リザーチィン=スティテュード館長
シシール=クマール=ボース夫妻
昭和55（1980）年11月1日 チベット チベット仏教（ラマ教）　ダライ=ラマ14世法王
昭和56（1981）年1月26日 米国 在日米空軍横田基地司令官　ドゥエイン.C.オーベルグ大佐夫妻以下
昭和56（1981）年4月29日 米国 在日アメリカンスクール教育長　リチャード.T.オスナー氏
昭和56（1981）年5月12日 オーストリア ウイーン大学宗教学　フリッツ=フィンガー=ライダー教授夫妻一行
昭和56（1981）年6月2日
昭和56（1981）年6月22日 インドネシア アラムシャ.R.プラウィネガラ宗教相
昭和57（1982）年11月25日 エジプト 前世界イスラム審議会事務総長　モハメッド=トゥフィ� bク=オーエイダ博士
昭和58（1983）年8月4日 米国 国立公園アリゾナ記念館　ゲーリー=カミンズ館長
昭和58（1983）年11月9日 インド マガタ大学歴史学教授　アングッシュマン=ラビ博士
マガタ大学歴史学教授　シンジャ=アワンマドゥ=クレジ 博士
昭和59（1984）年12月13日 インド 旧インド国民軍　シャーザダ=ブランデイーン=カーン陸軍大佐
昭和60（1985）年6月10日 エジプト モハメッド=サミー=サーベット駐日大使
アニース=ネマタラー駐日公使
昭和60（1985）年7月23日 米国 在日米空軍横田基地空軍司令官　ウォル=ファイル大佐
昭和60（1985）年10月18日 西ドイツ 駐日大使館国防武官　マウル大佐
昭和61（1986）年6月6日 米国 在日米空軍横田基地空軍副司令官　エドワード=フライ大佐
昭和62（1987）年10月19日 西ドイツ 元駐日大使館付武官　クルグ海軍大佐夫妻
昭和63（1988）年8月13日 パキスタン 駐日大使館付陸軍准将　ブリカディー=ムハマド=ネイブ=テナ氏
昭和63（1988）年10月27日 米国 在日米空軍横須賀基地司令官　スティーブン.H.ハウエル海軍大佐
平成元（1989）年6月20日
平成元（1989）年11月14日 西ドイツ ハンブルク市国防軍指揮幕僚学校教官　エーベルバルト=メシェル空軍大佐
平成2（1990）年10月27日 統一ドイツ シュトゥットガルト放送交響楽団団長　ルッツ=リューデンマン博士
平成3（1991）年10月30日 チリ ルネ=アベリウク通産大臣
平成4（1992）年3月1日 スリランカ C.マヘンドラン駐日大使
平成4（1992）年7月10日 フィンランド カリ=ベリホルム特命全権大使
平成5（1993）年9月21日 リトアニア アドルファス=スレジェべシス首相
平成5（1993）年11月7日 タイ 空軍司令官補佐　サマート=ソサティット空軍大将
平成6（1994）年6月15日 イギリス 駐日大使館付武官　M.スミス海軍大佐
平成7（1995）年4月26日 インド 故ラダ=ビノード=パール博士令息　プロサント=パール氏
平成7（1995）年5月30日 チベット テンジン=テトン前主席大臣（首相）
平成7（1995）年8月2日 ミャンマー（旧ビルマ） ウ=アエ文化大臣
平成7（1995）年8月14日 パラオ（ベラウ） イナボ=イナボ政府顧問
平成7（1995）年11月1日 ドイツ ロベルト=ウェルナー駐日武官夫妻
平成8（1996）年6月15日 イギリス 駐日大使館付武官　ロバートソン大佐
駐日大使館付武官　エドワーズ大佐
平成8（1996）年6月17日 パラオ・ぺリリュー戦の旧日米両軍関係者53人
平成8（1996）年8月13日 イラン M.シャケリ駐日大使館一等書記官
ドイツ 駐日大使館国防武官　ロベルト=ウェルナー陸軍大佐
平成8（1996）年8月20日 スロベニア ダニーロ=チュルク国連大使
平成8（1996）年10月18日 トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　ネディム=アンバル海軍大佐
平成8（1996）年11月1日 韓国 李玖・旧朝鮮王朝王子
平成9（1997）年4月5日 トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　ネディム=ランバー海軍大佐
ルーマニア 駐日大使館付武官　ダン空軍大佐
インド 駐日大使館付武官　カトチ陸軍大佐
マレーシア 駐日大使館付武官　ハミド海軍大佐
イスラエル 駐日大使館付武官　ドルファン准将
ロシア プロコペンコ駐日大使館事務官
駐日大使館付武官　エヴストラホフ陸軍少将
タイ 駐日大使館付武官　シーラカムクライ氏
平成9（1997）年4月13日 タイ プーン=サック海軍中将
平成9（1997）年4月22日 ルーマニア ダン空軍大佐
スイス ドルガー防衛軍大佐
タイ ポンプン陸軍大佐
平成9（1997）年11月25日 インド 故ラダ=ビノード=パール博士令息　プロサント=パール夫妻
平成10（1998）年4月4日 ルーマニア 駐日大使館付武官　ラルジュアーヌ陸軍大佐
イスラエル 駐日大使館付武官　ドルファン准将
インド 駐日大使館付武官　ヴォドガオン=カール海軍大佐
ブラジル 駐日大使館付武官　キーゼル海軍大佐
ポーランド 駐日大使館付武官　スタルシコ陸軍大佐
ロシア 駐日大使館付武官　エフストラフコ陸軍少将
駐日大使館付武官　ボカチョンコフ海軍大佐
スイス 駐日大使館付武官　マイヤ陸軍大佐
トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　アンバル海軍大佐
平成10（1998）年4月22日 イスラエル 駐日大使館付武官　ドルファン准将　（春季例大祭当日 祭に参列）
ブラジル 駐日大使館付武官　キーゼル海軍大佐　（同上）
トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　アンバル海軍大佐　（同上）
ポーランド 駐日大使館付武官　スタルシコ陸軍大佐　（同上）
平成10（1998）年6月27日 米国 米海軍第七艦隊　ミカエル=ローランド=オリバー海軍大佐
平成10（1998）年8月 米国 在日米軍横田基地の空軍関係者、遊就館見学
平成10（1998）年10月18日 トルコ セミー=イエシブルサ海軍大佐
ポーランド スタルシコ陸軍大佐
平成11（1999）年1月17日 ブラジル サンパウロ市　松柏学園
平成11（1999）年3月19日 カナダ ビクトリア市　セントマイケルズ=ユニバーシティ=スクール
平成11（1999）年4月3日 インド 駐日大使館付武官　ウェヘライ海軍大佐
ルーマニア 駐日大使館付武官　イラン=ラアルジェアヌ空軍大佐
ロシア 駐日大使館付武官　ボカチョンコフ海軍大佐
タイ 駐日大使館付武官　マイトリー空軍大佐
駐日大使館付武官　スリヤン陸軍大佐
トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　イエシルブルサ海軍大佐
イラン 駐日大使館付武官　サファリ海軍少将
ブラジル 駐日大使館付武官　フェヘライ海軍大佐
マレーシア 駐日大使館付武官　ハミド海軍大佐
平成11（1999）年9月13日 チベット チベット仏教　リクー=ブッダ=ダツ氏
平成11（1999）年10月19日 ポーランド 駐日大使館付武官　ヴワデイスフク=スタルシコ陸軍大� ｲ
トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　イエシルブルサ海軍大佐
平成12（2000）年1月12日 米国 コルゲート大学学生
平成12（2000）年4月5日 台湾（中華民国） 高砂族元義勇兵・遺族
平成12（2000）年4月8日 トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　セミー=イエシブルサ海軍大佐
ルーマニア 駐日大使館付武官　イラン=ラアルジュアル空軍大佐
イスラエル 駐日大使館付武官　ズイブ陸軍大佐
スイス 駐日大使館付武官　マイヤ陸軍大佐
ミャンマー（旧ビルマ） 駐日大使館付武官　キン=モン=ウィン陸軍大佐
イタリア 駐日大使館付武官　オファーノ=ルチアーノ海軍大佐
ポーランド 駐日大使館付武官　キメク=トーマス陸軍大佐
ロシア 駐日大使館付武官　ボカチョンコフ海軍大佐
インド 駐日大使館付武官　ヴァドガオンカール陸軍大佐
駐日大使館付武官　ビスワン空軍大尉
メキシコ 駐日大使館付武官　セルジオ=ララ=モンテジャーノ海軍少将
平成12（2000）年4月17日 台湾 高砂族元義勇兵・遺族
平成12（2000）年4月26日 インド 沿岸警備隊長官　ジョン=コリンズ=デシルバ海軍中将
平成12（2000）年10月18日 イタリア 駐日大使館付武官　オッタリオ=ルティグハーノ海軍大佐
トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　クトイ=ジング氏
平成13（2001）年3月22日 カナダ ビクトリア市　セントマイケルズ=ユニバーシティ=ミドルスクール
平成13（2001）年4月7日 スイス 駐日大使館付武官　ハンズ.R.マイヤ陸軍大佐
インド 駐日大使館付武官　ヴァドガオンカール陸軍大佐
イスラエル 駐日大使館付武官　ズイブ陸軍大佐
ミャンマー（旧ビルマ） 駐日大使館付武官　キン=モン=ウィン陸軍大佐
ポーランド 駐日大使館付武官　スタルシコ陸軍大佐
ルーマニア 駐日大使館付武官　ラルジュアーヌ陸軍大佐
トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　セミー=イエシブルサ海軍大佐
ドイツ 駐日大使館付武官　ライムンド=ヴァルナー海軍大佐
ブラジル 駐日大使館付武官　クラウジオ=ホジェリオ=デ=アンド� �=フロール海軍大佐
平成13（2001）年4月7日 台湾（中華民国） 高座会（台湾出身元少年工員・家族）
平成13（2001）年4月22日 ブラジル 駐日大使館付武官　クラウジオ=ホジェリオ=デ=アンド� �=フロール海軍大佐
トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　クタイ=ゲンチ陸軍大佐
平成13（2001）年4月26日 米国 海兵隊第三師団長　ウォーレス=グレッグソン海兵隊少将
平成13（2001）年6月27日 インド ヒンドゥー教徒　カリアン=ババ氏
平成13（2001）年10月18日 トルコ 駐日大使館付武官　クタイ=ゲンチ陸軍大佐
平成13（2001）年10月30日 アゼルバイジャン アリ=マシホフ元首相・人民戦線党最高評議会議長
平成14（2002）年3月 韓国 駐日大使館付武官　柳海軍大佐
駐日大使館付武官　除陸軍大佐
平成14（2002）年4月10日 ペルー アルベルト=フジモリ元大統領
平成14（2002）年5月31日 米国 在日米軍空軍基地将校会　ロニー=デート空軍少佐以下
平成14（2002）年8月 米国 国立公園アリゾナ記念館　キャサリン=ビリングス前館長
平成15（2003）年2月 南アフリカ アッパ=オマール前広報庁次官
平成15（2003）年4月 スイス 駐日大使館付武官　ハンズ.R.マイヤ陸軍大佐
平成17（2005）年4月4日 台湾（中華民国） 台湾団結連盟（台連）　蘇進強主席ら同党訪日団

[ricecake]

Bush contacted japannese Department of Foreign Affairs to visit yasukuni afew years ago.japan thanked him and refused him politely to visit bacause it would make him a trouble.



You absolute deserve a BAN @ Jref for this unconfirmed statement ! :sick: person.

[ricecake]

education is nothing to do with me.because I failed that.



Obviously failed post-war Japan's peace education,judging by constant spamming Jref with propaganda militarism materials from Japan's WW 2. :car: ( Uyoku )

[caster51]

Obviously failed post-war Japan's peace education,judging by constant spamming Jref with propaganda militarism materials from Japan's WW 2. ( Uyoku )
:blush:
yeah I hate those black noisy buses:blush:
that might be a counteraction of sayoku(日教組）:souka:
ppl are getting to thaw from masochism.
anyway, it is no pronlem that ppl visit Yasukuni to pray for peace

as a nation of country with a constitutional government, i dont admit to judge by ex post facto method:wave:

[Han Chan]

Dear Caster and Ricecake

Could I suggest that yhe two of you continue you dialoge as a chat. You obviously both enjoy it. However, it's not interesting for the rest of us!

[Han Chan]

It seems like several leading LDP politicians now agree that the war criminals should be seperated from the regular war-dead in Yasukuni. It is also interesting that there are now thoughts about changing the shrine into a secular monument or alternatively to build a secular war memorial. Very interinstin article in Asahi yesterday:

"Can old twist on old plot defuse Yasukuni?
08/09/2006

BY YU NOGAMI

THE ASAHI SHIMBUN

Foreign Minister Taro Aso has stirred the bubbling Yasukuni pot by urging the controversial war-linked Shinto shrine to voluntarily disband as a religious entity and become a national secular memorial.

The proposal changes the terms of the contemporary Yasukuni debate, which in recent years has largely focused on whether the prime minister should pay his respects there.

Instead, Aso suggested the Diet pass a law to make Yasukuni secular, and that the Diet decide who to honor there.

Finance Minister Sadakazu Tanigaki is another voice calling for Yasukuni to take action of its own accord.

Tanigaki, who has said he will not visit the shrine for the time being, endorses the idea of separating the 14 Class-A war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni from the war dead.

It is Yasukuni's enshrinement of war criminals alongside the war dead in the first place that is the problem, he said.

"The ball is now in Yasukuni's court," Tanigaki said.

In some ways, Tanigaki and Aso are similar. Both plan to run in the Liberal Democratic Party presidential election to choose Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's successor. And both are urging the shrine to take voluntary action.

But Aso has gone a step further and suggested that the Diet be the one to decide who to honor at the shrine--including the possibility of separating the Class-A war criminals.

In his proposal, Aso said that prime ministerial visits are transforming Yasukuni into a political issue, and obscuring the shrine's true aim of offering a place to pray for the sprits of the war dead.

He has given his proposal to both Yasukuni Shrine and Nippon Izokukai, a national association of bereaved families of the war dead.

Aso has also indicated that he will not pay respects at Yasukuni until the shrine takes up the burden of change. That burden, he made clear at a news conference Tuesday, is squarely on Yasukuni's shoulders.

Hidenao Nakagawa, LDP policy chief, backed up Aso by mentioning that he could submit a bill to allow the government to manage Yasukuni.

Consensus is far from secured, though. Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe told reporters Monday that he does not want any review on Yasukuni's enshrinement policy.

"The government is not in a position to state opinions on Yasukuni Shrine's religious positions and rites," Abe said.

The debate has only begun. But it seems increasingly likely to force Japan to finally come to terms with its role in World War II in addition to the pros and cons of a secular Yasukuni and treatment of Class-A war criminals.

"Whether Yasukuni should be secular was debated some 30 years ago," pointed out LDP veteran Taku Yamasaki in a speech Monday.

But, said Yamasaki, "it is unlikely that the shrine will give up its religious status."

Rather, Yamasaki believes a better solution is to build a separate, secular war memorial.

In fact, in the 1960s and 1970s the LDP drafted a bill to put Yasukuni Shrine under state control, and submitted it to the Diet five times. But it never passed, and was eventually scrapped in June 1974.

Yasukuni Shrine itself was open to the idea of state management, being under the jurisdiction of the navy and army ministries during the war. But things did not work out that way. Some argued that making Yasukuni state-run would be a return to wartime policies. Others pointed out that making the shrine secular was procedurally difficult, involving changing the wordings of celebratory speeches there.

While the shrine resisted such changes, Nippon Izokukai changed tactics: It started encouraging prime ministers to make official visits to Yasukuni.(IHT/Asahi: August 9,2006) "

[tiku taku]

Yasukuni is the shrine, so this is the religion. No one can change its teaching except GOD.

[Dutch Baka]

It`s good to read Aso his opinion about this, because Abe would probably continue to visit the shrine if he will become PM.

[名無し]

China, S. Korea to Accept One Shrine Visit by Next Leader (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20060813a1.html)The Chinese and South Korean governments intend to accept one visit to Yasukuni Shrine by the next prime minister, but only on condition that no more visits are made during his tenure, informed sources said Saturday.↓

China, South Korea Deny Report They would Accept Shrine Visits by Future Japan Leaders (http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/archive/news/2006/08/13/20060813p2a00m0na006000c.html)South Korea and China denied a news report Sunday that they had agreed to accept visits to a Tokyo war shrine by future Japanese leaders if current Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi stays away for the rest of his term.China and Korea have never made any joint statement on Yasukuni before, so it is easy to suspect credibility of the report by Jiji and Kyodo anyway.
Was it one of typical disinformation tactics for just testing water. Were the "sources" Tokyo, Seoul or Shanghai.

[caster51]

Koizumi

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060815-04648171-jijp-pol.view-001

if j-PM continues to visit yasukuni. it will be natural ..
then they will lose a Yasukuni card gradually

[名無し]

Na�ve people who think that the issue will be solved by deshrining class A war criminal had better read the following news report.

NHK news (http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/dailynews.html)S.Korea: Yasukuni Visits Unacceptable

A South Korean presidential spokesman says it would be unacceptable for Japanese leaders to visit Yasukuni Shrine even if the shrine separates major war criminals from Japanese war dead. The shrine in Tokyo honors those who died for Japan in past wars as well as Japanese leaders convicted as war criminals after World War Two.

A South Korean presidential spokesman, Jung Tae Ho, told South Korean reporters on Wednesday that it will not resolve the issue if the shrine merely separates major war criminals.

South Korea strongly opposed Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni Shrine on Tuesday --- the anniversary of the end of World War Two.

He also said the shrine has facilities which glorify Japan's militarist past and that Japan's view of justifying past wars of aggression would not change even if the shrine separates them.

South Korean Foreign Affairs and Trade Minister Ban Ki Moon told reporters that South Korea will only agree on a summit with Japan on condition that Japan's next prime minister holds what he says is a correct view on their shared history. The Yasukuni issue has strained ties between Japan and South Korea.They will not stop complaining by removing class A war criminals. They will next demand to close down the museum, then eventually demolish the whole Yasukuni.
That is because their culture does not have such virtue as praying for soldiers who had to die for the nation. They will not get satisfied even after burning down all Shintoism shrines then digging up every single grave to vandalize it.
A new nonreligious facility will be blamed by them too as glorification of militarism anyway.

[ricecake]

They will not stop complaining by removing class A war criminals. They will next demand to close down the museum,then eventually demolish the whole Yasukuni.

They will not get satisfied even after burning down all Shintoism shrines then digging up every single grave to vandalize it.



Masked-nationalistic ranting ... ranting ... ranting,scare tactics won't work.:p

Yasukuni Shrine is a right-wing institution with Japanese nationalists pulling strings behind the scenes.

Someone's post counts equivalent to Japanese right-wing propaganda machine.

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Na・e people who think that the issue will be solved by deshrining class A war criminal had better read the following news report.
NHK news (http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/dailynews.html)They will not stop complaining by removing class A war criminals. They will next demand to close down the museum, then eventually demolish the whole Yasukuni.
That is because their culture does not have such virtue as praying for soldiers who had to die for the nation. They will not get satisfied even after burning down all Shintoism shrines then digging up every single grave to vandalize it.
A new nonreligious facility will be blamed by them too as glorification of militarism anyway.

Mr. Koizumi visited the Yasukuni Shrine as the Prime Minister from Japan on the 15th of August. I can understand the hurt feelings of the Koreans and Chinese people, because he signed in as PM Koizumi.
Any Japanese can pray for the souls of their lost beloved ones during WW II, so can the PM of Japan of course, but not as the PM from Japan but simply as Mr.Koizumi and certainly without camera's or any other big show he made of his visit to pray or whatever. It was very unrespectful.

[Han Chan]

They will not stop complaining by removing class A war criminals. They will next demand to close down the museum, then eventually demolish the whole Yasukuni.
That is because their culture does not have such virtue as praying for soldiers who had to die for the nation. They will not get satisfied even after burning down all Shintoism shrines then digging up every single grave to vandalize it.
A new nonreligious facility will be blamed by them too as glorification of militarism anyway.

This purely pessimistic speculation. It is just as likely that the stance of South Korea would soften if the political leaders in Japan showed that they actually cared about the feelings of their neighbors.

[Sukotto]

I have some questions about Yasakuni shrine and Shinto. I don't really have an opinion on Yasakuni, but i am against all war and heed to Yoda's advice after Luke told him he was looking for a 'great warrior' : "Wars do not make one great."

That said, didn't I read that Shinto had been a traditional "folk" religion or group of religions and quite noncentralized, until maybe the last century or so when the emperor system adopted it as their own as a way to justify their rule while claiming descent from the Goddess of the creation myth.

If that, how would Yasakuni tie into it?
Is Yasakuni of the state shinto version or the non-centralized "folk" version?

[Jlin]

Na・e people who think that the issue will be solved by deshrining class A war criminal had better read the following news report.
NHK news (http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/dailynews.html)They will not stop complaining by removing class A war criminals. They will next demand to close down the museum, then eventually demolish the whole Yasukuni.
That is because their culture does not have such virtue as praying for soldiers who had to die for the nation. They will not get satisfied even after burning down all Shintoism shrines then digging up every single grave to vandalize it.
A new nonreligious facility will be blamed by them too as glorification of militarism anyway.

Well, form other Asian nation's perspective, it was the right wing group that have succefully enshrined the class A war criminals into Yasukuni in 1978. And starting about 10 years ago. Their influence made into the education ministry and the school history textbooks were toned-down on the subject of WWII atrocities. And maybe the right wing group will not stop ther and the next logical step for Japan would be to rearm itself and maybe what happened 60 years ago will repeat again.
But in reality, the vast majority of Chinese do not hate Japanese for the current diplomatic problems, they understand this is the problems between the two governments.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

I have some questions about Yasakuni shrine and Shinto. I don't really have an opinion on Yasakuni, but i am against all war and heed to Yoda's advice after Luke told him he was looking for a 'great warrior' : "Wars do not make one great."
That said, didn't I read that Shinto had been a traditional "folk" religion or group of religions and quite noncentralized, until maybe the last century or so when the emperor system adopted it as their own as a way to justify their rule while claiming descent from the Goddess of the creation myth.
If that, how would Yasakuni tie into it?
Is Yasakuni of the state shinto version or the non-centralized "folk" version?

Yasukuni shrine was established to mourn for a person killed in action (the Emperor side) by Boshin War on August 6, 1869.

"An enshrined deity" is not God or the Emperor appearing in a myth,
It is the war dead who "gave life to Japan".
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/index.html

Other than Yasukuni shrine, there is the Shinto shrine which does "an enshrined deity" of an officer.
東郷神社 (TOGO SHRINE)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dg%C5%8D_Shrine
乃木神社 ( NOGI SHRINE)
http://www.nogijinja.or.jp/

[caster51]

Former Taiwanese Presidential Adviser Kin Bi-Rei on Yasukuni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdAgYx1-Fcg

[Gentleman10]

I was thinking on the way to class today...

Are foreigners allowed to visit Yasukuni Shrine? If so, has anyone been?

[caster51]

Are foreigners allowed to visit Yasukuni Shrine?
yes...
please pray for peace in the world and health for your family.

that is also their hope.

[gaijinalways]

Yes, I have visited it, though I still consider praying they raze it or remove the war criminals and the names of people whose relatives wish that there family members' names were not listed there.

[名無し]

Are foreigners allowed to visit Yasukuni Shrine?yes...Numerous non-Japanese VIPs have visited Yasukuni, including Dalai Lama in 1980.
Notice that it was after class A war criminals were enshrined.

It is in a way sad that some people still feel that Japan should not be allowed to have the memorial day holiday.

[Gentleman10]

Hmm, well you know... if my study abroad stuff works out next year, I really think I just may see it to get a glimpse of what all the fuss is about. If one were to argue this subject so boldly, I'd say It's probably a good idea to see just how peaceful or insulting the shrine may be. I really am curious to see it.. as long as I'm not harrassed by officials/ conservatives for being foreign.

I guess I aught as well elaborate on what I think about Yasukuni while I'm here. Frankly I feel rather torn apart by the subject. I think I understand why the Japanese love it so much, and I think I understand why foreigners (south asians, chinese etc) hate it so much. I think it's really that Japanese and non Japanese simply aren't thinking of the shrine in the same light, and thus they don't see eye to eye with each other.
I am going to try and approach this subject from an unbiased and clear perspective as an American. Honestly I think many of the opinions on yasukuni are just so distoreted it's so hard to make up your own mind sometimes, especially when being informed from a Japanese or victimized Asian nation. At the same time, I think Westerners have a sense of democratic bias installed in them concerning the issue, but I'm about to address that.
I have been taught that the Japanese war criminals are the ones responsible for committing horrible atrocities all across Asia. They were the ones responsible for the rape, violence, and horrible experiments etc etc that created the tensions that lie between Asian and Japan today. I have also been taught that some Japanese believe these atrocities never happened, as if the Japanese had never harmed a fly during WW2, while the reality was that they were at the peak of their military expansion. I also know that as a result of this brutal past, many Asians today demand reparations for these not so recent atrocities, and that the Japanese governement is denying many of these people their payment.
Ok, that is what I have learned through my most-likely biased US education and information, now this is what I think:
What we really have to do is break this up into 3 perspectives, a Japanese, a non-Japanese Asian, and a Western perspective if we all want to understand what Yasukuni is about. I'm not saying any of this is exactly accurrate (if I'm wrong in any way, feel free to argue lol), but I'm really thinking I'm hitting the reason why everyone has their panties in a twist.

Let's start with teh Jp perspective:
Now if I were to put my shoes shoes of a typical Japanese I think my opinion would go something like this. To begin with I think it would be difficult to understand why people have a problem with politicians honoring the Japanese war dead to begin with. I think the Japanese view their fallen as a symbol of what their ancestors went through to create the prosperous Japan they live in today. Everyone knows all of Asia has a very rigid heirarchical sense of honor as far as elders are concerned, so isn't this just a way of honoring those before you who took bullets for your sake? Think about it, a classic message advocated is to "meet [teh soldiers] at yasukuni" to celebrate the prosperity created for Japan. I think the Japanese feel overcriticized for going to yasukni, because foreigners do not understand the concepts of taking the good of the Japanese soldier while removing the bad and already officially apologizing for the atrocities committed. Think of it this way, American soldiers (or any soldier for that matter) has had their share of raping foreign women, viciously treating enemy POWs and whatever. The Japanese have had their share of sins as well, they're only human (I'm not using this as an excuse by any means to say that what they did was right).
For a nation that has been in existence for a very long time, I would naturallly assume that a good portion of pride as a Japanese was established. And being the collective society that Japan is, everyone no matter what they did, is considered to have done their job for Japan, because to exclude even a single member would not express the tight bond of comraderie between the Japanese people. Therefore, the Japanese rather accept their atrocities regardless of what they did, but at the same time, I think they are regretful that to build their nation required so much pain on everyone else's part. BUT that regret is not the point of yasukuni. Even as caster said (I think he's Japanese, are you?)
---
[Yasukuni is meant to] pray for peace in the world and health for your family.

that is also their hope.
---
yasukuni is a place to respect all the dead, because to banish even one of the deceased would remove any sense of honor from that person, regardless of his/her status.
Because of this deep philosophy that foreigners do not understand, and because other Asians are so overwhelemed by anger of the actual atrocities, Japan get annoyed at the rest of the world, and they simply choose to shutdown/ignore everyone else's complaining, and just go about their business considering it a private affair that people shouldn't really be getting into to begin with. The rest of Asia says that "yasukuni reminds them of the atrocities and is a reminder of their horrid past", but I can imagine how this annoys Japan b/c they don't think that's the point of yasukuni. While the rest of the world will not settle for this, Japan expects everyone else to turn the other cheek if they don't agree with the way they handle their business.
In short, this is a matter of pride to the Japanese to honor the everyday recruit who left his wife and children to shed his blood for a better tomororw.
On a seperate note, I have a feeling that the Japanese kinda want to seperate themselves from these horrible events in order to identify as a more peaceful people, so I can see why it could be difficult to face such a haunting past.

----

The Rest of Asia: Well guys, damn I'd be pissed too if I were China Korea south asia. In fact, I'd be really pissed. If Japan isn't completely owning up to what they did to their people. I mean really, wouldn't we all? If the Japanese come to China and decided to use them for scientific experiments, and completely obliterate Nanjing, well of course they have reason to be furious. Additionally, why would Japan have the nerve to honor those who tortured so many people? It just doesn't add up.. and thus animosity spreads throughout Asia (except for Taiwan, who, in my opinion, sometimes mindlessly thanks Japan withouth thinking). Because the Japanese shutdown whenever it comes to giving a full explanation of Yasukuni shrine (most likely because they see it as a private affair), everyone else sees this is a slap in the face saying "Deal with it, that's all I have to say" arrogant attitude. Well, that's not cool beans with everyone now is it? And for the fact that the Japanese prime minister of all people has the nerve to go and not explain himself b/c he, as well as the rest of Japan is kinda annoyed at having to deal with all this to begin with.... well folks, I can clearly imagine why Asia is kinda ticked.

US/Europe: *I probably am speaking from a more American perspective than I am a european one, so work with me here*
To us, as far as the general population is concerned, I think it's difficult for most people to grasp the fact that these nations like china and japan have been in existence for so long. While America may be a blantantly patriotic country, how many times have you heard that it is your duty "as an American" to do "~~~'? While we may hear that only every 4 years (it's our duty as Americans to vote), on the flipside, how many times have you heard on Jtv that it is Xさん’s duty as a Japanese as a form of motivation one way or another? I think what we have trouble understanding is the deep sense of pride enstilled in many Jp people, and therefore it is hard for us as westernesrs to approach this deeply touchy subject beyond the basic ethics of right and wrong. The reason why Americans see yasukuni as a place that aught to be condemned is because we can only relate yasukuni as a reminder of an Axis enemy (and naturally we think of Japanese general's like Hitler, and no one likes him), and thus we feel compelled to erase this shrine of Jp generals. While the rest of Asia probably believe the Jp generals to be the Asian Hitler equivalent, Americans, the founders of democracy and "fair play" would obvious demand a removal any idols of the atrocities. What the US doesnt' recoginize is that yasukuni is more than a shrine of idolization.... it's a shrine of religion, more specifically a religion that's been founded for who knows who long. Let's face it, no way in hell is anyone just going to stop a tradition which has been going on for 10000000 years, especially a group of people as culturally staunch as the Japanese. But because of cultural differnces, it is difficult for the US to make such request to our newly befriended allies, and it is difficult for the Japanese to say to their newly befriended allies "You guys don't get it.. it's more than that".

*phew*, well in conclusion, what I really think needs to be done is that people just talk without gettting pissed at each other, although I think people on all sides of the globe may be a bit too confused/angry with each other at this point to do that. I really think what Japan needs to do is, rather than shut down when it comes to talking, is the exact opposite. What they really need to do, is seriously talk to china about what they think. I think it would be quite possible to communicate "We aren't changing our ways, but things aren't exactly the way you see them. let me tell you just why we do the things we do." while maintain that infamous Japanese staunchness for culture.

My advice to the rest of Asia is to become less pissed, and more passive aggressive in facing this issue with Japan. Because the Japanese really don't want to bring back up old wounds of being reminded of the horrid atrocities committed, I think it would be kinda futile to ask for $9999999999999 in reparations when dealing with a different generation in political power. Think about black people in the US with reparations. It would be rediculous to ask a completely different generation of government for huge sums of money no matter how bad the crime, b/c apparently ppl aren't too fond of having to say "I'm sorry" for the sins of their fathers (especially when saying sorry means forking over cash). If people were to want to reach a peaceful settlement the way to make peace with a person you're at odds with is to calmly approach them and slowly start off with "let's talk". Hopefully, if the Japanese aren't feeling too introverted, just maybe we can start up some negotiations.

US/Europe: Frankly i think the most we can do is just sit and watch, and encourse asia to friggin get along. I really don't think Japan is going to acknowledge a country so culturally different when it comes to addressing such a cultural issue. I have the feeling that many westerners would get a cold shoulder when addressing the yasukuni issue, but just maybe if we play our cards right someone will listen to what we have to say just a lil bit more.

Blah, why can't we all be friends (>_<) ?

Well, if you reached the end of the mega passage, congrats. go ahead and criticize the hell out of anything I said that sounds odd or didn't come off just right, I can probably be more clear in shorter responses. Anyway, hopefully this will be some food for our brains to munch on for a while, so enjoy.

[caster51]

Japanese ppl's Feature against Spirit of the war dead and even enamy's one, the Japanese shows respect and honour to them.
Because enemy also fought to protect the home country.

[hanachan]

Japanese ppl's Feature against Spirit of the war dead and even enamy's one, the Japanese shows respect and honour to them.
Because enemy also fought to protect the home country.

And also shows respect and honour to animals that died in the war,
such as military horses and dogs, even carrier pigeon for military communications.

If you have a chance to go Yasukuni, you can see those memorial monuments.

[KirinMan]

And also shows respect and honour to animals that died in the war,
such as military horses and dogs, even carrier pigeon for military communications.
If you have a chance to go Yasukuni, you can see those memorial monuments.

Well it seems fitting that all animal's are enshrined together in memorial for service to the country.

I just think it's a shame that JSDF personel that died in service defending Japan can not be enshrined there, only those that died fighting in a war of agression.

To me at least those that died defending Japan, the JSDF, should be honored in the same way. In a way by not allowing them to be enshrined at Yasukuni they are saying that the animal's deserve more honor than the men and women of the JSDF.

[diceke]

I just think it's a shame that JSDF personel that died in service defending Japan can not be enshrined there, only those that died fighting in a war of agression.
You need to note that the shrine was first constructed to commemorate the dead of the civil war 1868-1869. But I agree, there is no war that's not aggressive.:wave:
Those JSDF personnel who died serving the country are enshrined in the Gokoku Shrine, along with the war dead.

[KirinMan]

You need to note that the shrine was first constructed to commemorate the dead of the civil war 1868-1869. But I agree, there is no war that's not aggressive.:wave:
Those JSDF personnels who died serving the country are enshrined in the Gokoku Shrine, along with the war dead.

However they were refused internment at Yasukuni.

[Mikawa Ossan]

However they were refused internment at Yasukuni.
Saying that they were refused internment implies that internment was applied for. Do you know if this is the case? (I don't know.)

Because that's different than going straight to the Gokoku shrine without applying and being denied internment at Yasukuni.

[hanachan]

I just think it's a shame that JSDF personel that died in service defending Japan can not be enshrined there, only those that died fighting in a war of agression.
To me at least those that died defending Japan, the JSDF, should be honored in the same way.


I think so.
However, as long as the official position of JSDF is not clearly defined, it's difficult. Yasukuni won't refuse to enshrine the victims of JSDF, but they can't do that today. The government should decide about this legally.
Anyway a few of our neighbour countries may complain it.

By the way, do you know the fact of that;
At the time of Korean war, Japan carried out minesweeping of Korean sea area by American request.
This mission was secret. Because Japan was under occupation, and she didn't have "official" Navy at that time.
The victims in this mission were enshrined at Kotohira shrine known as "Konpirasan" in Kagawa.
Kotohira shrine is the deity as the guardian of the sea.
In spring and autumn every year, JSDF ships come to the port of Takamatsu, my hometown, to visit Kotohira shrine.

[KirinMan]

Saying that they were refused internment implies that internment was applied for. Do you know if this is the case? (I don't know.)
Because that's different than going straight to the Gokoku shrine without applying and being denied internment at Yasukuni.

I will try to find the thread again where there was a link included with information about this topic.

I am pretty sure I read it somewhere here on this forum.
I don't know about the "going straight to Gokoku with applying" part though.

[名無し]

Lee Pays Respects at Yasukuni (http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=77055&CtNode=45)"We didn't receive my brother's belongings or his body, so my father did not believe that my brother had passed away. That was why we did not build a tomb for him," Lee said.

"Because he is my brother, it is natural that I visit (the shrine) and pay my most sincere respects to him," the former president told the press.
A retired old man who might not live for a long time finally met his elder brother's spirit. Some media reported that Dr. Lee was teary-eyed.

Anyone who can spit acid words about that is a savage.

[diceke]

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/06/japan.lee.reut/index.html

TOKYO, Japan (Reuters) -- Former Taiwan president Lee Teng-hui, despised by Beijing for asserting the self-ruled island's sovereignty, paid his respects at a Tokyo's Yasukuni war shrine on Thursday, despite China's objections.

Lee's visit could cast a cloud over the recent thaw in Sino-Japanese relations, although a Japanese government spokesman said it would have "nearly zero effect" on ties.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry had no immediate comment on Lee's pilgrimage to Yasukuni, which is seen by many in Asia as a symbol of Japan's militarism before and during World War Two.

But Beijing had earlier warned Japan it risked harming ties by allowing Lee to visit the country. Tokyo had countered that his trip was for tourism and should have no impact on relations.

Lee, 84, told a news conference before going that his pilgrimage to Yasukuni was a personal matter to pay respects to his elder brother, who died fighting for the Japanese during World War Two, when Taiwan was a Japanese colony.

"It is completely personal, please don't think of anything political or historical," he said, speaking in Japanese. "As family, showing respect to my elder brother by visiting the shrine is something I must do."

Some 300 supporters of Lee, who was educated in Japan and led Taiwan from 1988 to 2000, shouted "banzai" (long life) when he arrived at the shrine. Some waved Japanese flags.

Yasukuni honors millions of Japanese war dead -- among them soldiers from Taiwan and Korea who fought for Japan, their colonial ruler at the time -- but also some convicted war criminals, including wartime prime minister Hideki Tojo.
Fragile rapprochement

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe had said Japan was a free country and would not prevent Lee from visiting the shrine.

Lee's pilgrimage could damage the fragile rapprochement in Sino-Japanese ties that began after Abe took office in September and made an ice-breaking trip to Beijing.

Relations had worsened under Abe's predecessor, Junichiro Koizumi, largely due to Koizumi's annual visits to Yasukuni.

Before becoming prime minister, Abe had backed Koizumi's visits to the Yasukuni shrine, but he has declined to say whether he would go there while in the country's top post.

Some diplomats said Lee's move was partly an appeal to conservative Japanese politicians who favor tighter ties with Taiwan, with which Tokyo has no formal diplomatic ties.

Beijing has claimed sovereignty over Taiwan since 1949, when China's Nationalist forces fled to the island after losing power on the mainland to Mao Zedong's Communists.

Unlike much of Asia, which harbors deep resentment toward Japan due to its wartime aggression, Taiwan maintains a more friendly attitude toward its neighbor to the north.

Taiwan was already a Japanese colony when World War II broke out and was largely spared the fighting and harsh treatment meted out to many of the countries that Japan occupied during the war.

Many in Taiwan also credit Japan for helping to modernize the island and maintain rule and order there.

In another move that might irk Beijing, Japan's Justice Ministry decided to let U.S.-based Chinese pro-democracy activist Wei Jingsheng enter the country for medical tests, Kyodo reported.

Wei had arrived at Tokyo's Narita airport at the weekend to attend an event to mark the anniversary of the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrators that killed hundreds, possible thousands, of students and workers.

But Japanese immigration authorities had refused him permission to enter the country because he lacked a visa. He has been staying at a hotel near the airport since his arrival.

Wei, 57, suffers from diabetes, Kyodo said.

[citygirl07]

Each Southeast Asian country has a different dialect for every neighborhood of their country. Say, for instance you mix a guy from the country with a guy from the city. One thinks, he's such a faggot. The other thinks, dang he's too girly and old fashioned.
Everywhere you go, even in the United States of America, people deal with hating one another. Cause it's easier! Easier to categorize people so you can just get on with your life. But usually, instead of relying on what older people say about our history of what remains from the world wars, make friends with people of different ethnicities and try to view people like they are from a prism of colors. I mean everybody, even poor people. Don't ever make fun of somebody cause they are ugly or not smart enough. If you are ever bloodguilty from hiding the truth from them, you have no answer to give to God in the end. By the way, what did they say about koreans? bakame

[Han Chan]

Emperor Hirohito held "the view that the enshrinement of Class-A war criminals would leave a deep source of problems for the future with regard to countries involved in war" with Japan:

TOKYO, Aug. 4 KYODO

Late emperor concerned over Class-A war criminals damaging ties

The late Emperor Hirohito was concerned about Yasukuni Shrine's enshrinement of Class-A war criminals because he thought it would adversely affect Japan's future relations with the countries Japan had fought in World War II, according to a onetime aide to the emperor.
It was reported in July last year that a memorandum by a former Imperial Household Agency chief showed that the late emperor had expressed displeasure about the Tokyo shrine's honoring of Class-A war criminals. But the specific reasons for the emperor's discontent regarding the enshrinement were not known.
The late Yoshihiro Tokugawa, a former grand chamberlain to Emperor Hirohito, told poet Hirohiko Okano about what he claimed were the views of the emperor, posthumously known as Emperor Showa, according to Okano.
Tokugawa visited Okano, a prominent Japanese poet who had been on the jury of the Imperial New Year's poetry reading since 1979, in the fall of 1986 to seek his advice regarding dozens of ''waka'' poems composed by Emperor Hirohito, Okano said.
One of the poems had a line expressing ''anxiety'' about Yasukuni Shrine. Okano asked Tokugawa what the ''anxiety'' referred to and Tokugawa cited the honoring of Class-A war criminals at the shrine, according to Okano.
Tokugawa was then quoted as saying, ''His majesty holds a view opposed to the enshrinement of Class-A war criminals. There are two reasons.''
''One is that he believes it alters the nature of the enshrined deities when (Yasukuni Shrine) is made to honor the souls of people who went to war for the country and died in wars,'' the grand chamberlain was quoted as saying of the shrine's move to honor Class-A war criminals.
Tokugawa also said that Emperor Hirohito held ''the view that it will leave a deep source of problems for the future with regard to countries involved in war'' with Japan, according to Okano.
In explaining the background to the composition of the verse, the former grand chamberlain told Okano, ''If such 'anxiety' had been explicitly represented in the poem, it would have had an adverse effect, so a request was made to add a touch of euphemism,'' said Okano, who was a professor at Kokugakuin University in Tokyo at the time Tokugawa consulted him.
Emperor Hirohito paid homage at Yasukuni eight times after World War II and made his last visit in November 1975. Yasukuni added 14 Class-A war criminals including wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tojo to its list of those honored at the shrine in 1978.
The current emperor, Akihito, has not visited Yasukuni since ascending to the imperial throne on the death of his father, Emperor Hirohito, in 1989.
Yasukuni has been a constant source of diplomatic disputes since then Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone visited it along with Cabinet ministers on Aug. 15, 1985, the anniversary of the end of World War II in the Pacific theater. After fierce protests from China and other neighboring countries, Nakasone did not pay a visit the following year.
Former Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi visited the shrine every year while he was in office from 2001 to last year, heightening anti-Japan sentiment in China and elsewhere.
Current Prime Minister Shinzo Abe maintains a policy of remaining ambiguous about visits to the shrine.
The shrine's precursor was built in 1869 and was renamed Yasukuni Shrine in 1879. It was built to honor those who died in wars fought by the Japanese government. The majority of the around 2.5 million people enshrined at Yasukuni were military servicemen and civilian employees of the Japanese military.
==Kyodo

Found in: Kyodo News: http://home.kyodo.co.jp/modules/fstStory/index.php?storyid=329535