WW-II, Atrocities, Comfort Women [Archive]

suntory

Sep 29, 2003, 13:28

fact is the Japanese will NEVER pay compensation. It just wont happen....they havent even said sorry have they?? and after 60 years.
Besides the Koreans are victims but not powerfull victims like the Jews (if the jews were really victims that is...)
The US made Germany pay HUGE amounts in compensation to the Jews, infact Israel is built from the pockets of the Germans.
The US had the opportunity to make the Japanese pay also...but didnt....why? simply cause the Koreans werent Jews! and it obviously didnt suite them.
Anyhow to be honest I dont believe that the Holocaust actually happened to the extent that is protrayed. After all I have read and heard and seen I really dont think so.
As one said after the war and leading up to present day with all the Jew victims putting in for claims "who did Hitler kill??"
Anyhow there are people who would disagree with me, infact quite a few I guess, but thats ok I was the same I was bought up thinking just as you......the Germans were sick monsters, oh the poor jews.....but then I had an open mind and read read and read some more. if you have an open mind check out David Irvings site (search google).
But to be honest I dont think compensation is right. Every Human race has suffered some time in the past. Its important to learn and to show that you have learnt from past mistakes.
But then again im not a victim........

senseiman

Sep 29, 2003, 16:00

"some" people would disagree with you? I would say that the vast majority of people find the views and motives of anti semitic holocaust deniers like yourself to be morally repugnant and rightly so.

KenUmedaira

Oct 7, 2003, 12:11

Japanese government did pay compensation... you guys don't know it?

To Korea - 108 billion yen + 72 billion yen in 1965 was paid.
Besides all Japanese assets were left in Korea, which amount was 6 billion US dollars at that time (estimated by GHQ).
Both Korean and Japanese government have agreed every past issue was settled off by it. Japanese government wanted to pay to individuals, but Korean government did not use the reparation money for that purpose.
(for details see: http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/index.html
and
http://www.zephyr.dti.ne.jp/~kj8899/nikkan-shori.html)

Later on, Korean government finaly did compensation for those "comfort women" from 1974. They finished paying in 1977, then abolished the law in 1982. Many Koreans also know this.
Therefore, what's happening now is --- Japanese government paid to Korean government, Korean government did pay for those "ex-comfort women" --- and now, some of them are still insisting that they have not received any money nor any apology while we paid, Japanese prime minister"s" (= several prime ministers!) apologized, but they are asking for more money.

By the way, many of those refer to Germany --- but Japan did not do the same holocaust crime so this logic does not fit to our case. Also, Germany did pay for Jewish individuals but has paid anything to other countries as a nation. This is because their logic is that "Germany was illogically occupied by Nazis ("so we are not responsible!" - although Nazis became leading party by election ) and Germany is a different country."
Their reparation has not finished yet while that of Japan is already over.

senseiman

Oct 7, 2003, 12:21

Actually the money paid to South Korea in 1965 was aid, not compensation for the war, though in return for it the South Korean government gave up all future claims against Japan for reparations. The reason it was aid rather than reparations was because the Japanese government didn't want to acknowledge that it had done anything wrong during its occupation. North Korea wasn't given anything, so the issue of reparations is still an open case with them.

The Japanese didn't commit full scale genocide like the Nazis did, but they still commited some heinous atrocities during the occupation of various Asian countries. I suppose the best argument you can make is that the French and Americans were equally brutal in their occupation of east asia after the war, so they should be apologizing and paying reparations too.

KenUmedaira

Oct 7, 2003, 12:32

>money paid to South Korea in 1965 was aid
that's correct, and that's why prime minister Obuchi still had to tackle this issue (but he did, and settled - so it's over now.)

Also Japan has not paid to North Korea that's true - I understand this is because they are not a "legitimate government" in Korean peninsula.
By agreement between Japan and South Korea (in 1965 - SK was, and still is, in a war against North Korea), Japanese government has to regard South Korean government as the single legitimate government of Koreans. This was originally a request from South Korean government (I heard so), and they received all money - whatever it's called "aid" or reparation for the entire peninsula. So, I understand Japan do not have to pay any money to North Korean government.

By the way senseiman, did you know that Korean government had comfort women as well, during Korean war?
(see: http://japanese.joins.com/php/article.php?sv=jnews&src=soci&cont=soci0&aid=20020224192941400)

KenUmedaira

Oct 7, 2003, 12:41

>>money paid to South Korea in 1965 was aid
>that's correct, and that's why prime minister Obuchi still had to
> tackle this issue (but he did, and settled - so it's over now.)

I mean it was originally over in 1965 as both country agreed everything in past was settled off by the agreement, but it seems Koreans forget. Recently American tank ran over a girl and they still blame U.S. troops - although they did apologize and built a monument etc. Why do those Koreans still request apology (and money?).

KenUmedaira

Oct 7, 2003, 13:45

my apology for continuous posting, but my lost memory is back now:

Japan paid "aid" to South Korea and it was not called "reparation" - but in fact it was. True reason is, if it is a "reparation," South Korea also has to return all assets of Japanese (including both government and non-governemt) - which amount is actually much bigger than reparation amount Korean government originally insisted.

Now the same thing is going on between Japan and North Korea - instead of reparation, North Korea has been insisting for "economic aid" as seen in the announcement made last year.

Needless to say, no Japanese will agree if Japan just pay for economic assistance and still let them ask for compensation while they keep Japanese assets left there.

joho

Oct 7, 2003, 16:17

Stephen

Agree, most people prefer things of the past to be left alone.

But, then again, how do you forget something like a member of your family being beheaded by a Japanese occupation soldier?

My grandfather was that unfortunate innocent victim.

visit url: www.singaporean.per.sg/arthur.html

KenUmedaira

Oct 7, 2003, 17:15

joho,

you have not read all postings after stephen.
Japanese government has settled off those past issues with other countries.
If you don't know I can tell right now - 2.9 billion grant was given to Singapore in 1967.

an easy question:
There's a Japanese embassy in Singapore. So Singaporean embassy in Japan. If those issues had not been solved, WHY HAS YOUR GOVERNMENT AGREED TO REOPEN RELATIONSHIP WITH JAPAN AND EXCHANGE AMBASSADORS?

You are also a citizen of those countries which received compensation and settled all past issues between Japan. If you are not satisfied, just go blame your government or become a politician. It's not too late.
(Anyway, why are you in Japan Forum???
In order to advertise bad things about Japan?)

I don't deny there were war crimes in past, and all other countries also made such mistakes during wartime.
But Japanese government did settle those issues one by one, even at the time Japan was still a poor country.

About your grandfather I don't know if he was killed for really no reason, or doubted as a spy - or even still alive now - honestly I don't care. It's impossible to prove here. Instead just remain stating that some were real spies and some were not.

Anyway, for your information 920 Japanese soldiers were also executed after WWII due to doubts for abuse to prisoners/citizens,
and "crimes against human behavior"... which are in these days regarded as nothing but a mere revenge by winners.
But those soldiers were executed anyway, and those who returned to Japan and all Japanese citizens had to pay a lot of money as a compensation.
Japanese force did not order to kill innocent people (please show a proof if wrong), and such crimes were done by individuals so Japanese goverenment do not apologize, of course, but instead every Japanese including my parents did suffer by paying instead of those criminals. Money cannot replace people's lives, but remember there has been an agreement between Singapore and Japan, and this issue is over.

joho

Oct 7, 2003, 17:34

ken

Why am I in Japan Forum ? - well, this is a free country , don't you believe in freedom of speech and human rights? - or
...are you a typical racist?

Btw, I did not setup this topic, the threader did :)

visit: www.singaporean.per.sg/arthur.html

KenUmedaira

Oct 7, 2003, 17:51

hi joho - my favorite man:

Yeah, this is a free speech country --- my apology for silly question. It is a great point some other countries do not have. I am not familiar to situation of this field in Singapore, and would appreciate if you could tell a little about it as well.

Meanwhile, I still think you have not response to all points and keep your attitude unchanged. I am not a racist of any kind, and I have respect to Singapore as a great country with pride and power. Even I noted you and your postings, which have not replied to any logical questions, I still have this belief in Singapore.
But I really think you should complain to your government, not here or to Japanese or japanese government.
Or be a politician if not satisfied.

Besides, free speech does not justify ignoring an important fact Japanese did settle past issues with Singapore or all other countries (except North Korea which Japan do not regard as a nation).

joho

Oct 7, 2003, 22:38

Ken

You must have noticed by now that I neither dispute nor support your 'other points'. I have no comments on them except to say this - most Asian countries, especially China, would forgive Japan's past ONLY if Japan issues a formal admission of guilt and apology for atrocities committed by Japanese Military government in WWII.

No amount of money can compensate for the hurt .

Singapore is a democratic country. You can post anything you wish in public discussion forums. There is even a Government feedback website where you could criticise the country's policies and regulations freely, and without fear of being arrested.

bossel

Oct 8, 2003, 07:52

"This is because their logic is that "Germany was illogically occupied by Nazis ("so we are not responsible!" - although Nazis became leading party by election ) and Germany is a different country.""

I wonder, where you got that from. FR Germany always accepted responsibility for Nazi war crimes. The former GDR (Eastern Germany) did not (AFAIK). FRG compensated not only individuals but also countries: 100 billion Marks of war reparations, about 102 billion Marks for individual victims and about 755 billion Marks of industrial and enterprise compensation.

"Japanese force did not order to kill innocent people"
Well, ever heard of Unit 731? What about the Nankin/Nanjing massacre? Before you deny the latter, you may want to read this:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ccba/cear/issues/fall99/text-only/yoshida.htm

bossel

Oct 8, 2003, 08:03

Would it really matter how many millions have been killed in the holocaust? Murder is wrong, to me it doesn't matter very much if you kill 1, 1000 or 6 million.

KenUmedaira

Oct 8, 2003, 09:19

bossel :

that's what I heard when studies about history of German national flags - and I know Germany paid to individual Jewish victims, but the holocaust was not technically "war crime."

And for war crimes - correct this if I'm wrong - Germany has not finished payment to those nations won at WWII.
And the explanation of German government seems to be what I posted ---

However I am interested in your viewpoint so please let me ask a question:

- other than payment to Jewish individuals, did German government paid reparation to U.S., U.K., Russia or any other country?

About Unit 731 - originally it was a sanitation unit to prevent vermins in China, however all documents about it were confiscated by U.S. government and still has not revealed yet, as far as I know. Many of what we hear is rumors, propaganda etc.... as far as I know.

Manjing Massacre - as long as I studied, this is a pure propaganda which never existed, which was proved by a college professor Shudo Higashinakano, and after his thesis came out there are not even one claim from Chinese side which can turn this fact over.
No evidence was found so far although Chinese insist 300,000 people were slaughtered. One fact I can quickly give is that,
population of Nanjing was 200,000 people before Japanese force occupied (so not possible to kill 300,000) and 1 month later it increased to 250,000, and this survey was done by a third party.
(For some more details you can refer to:
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/index.html )
This website also welcomes questions if you have any.

KenUmedaira

Oct 8, 2003, 09:31

>other than payment to Jewish individuals,
>did German government paid reparation to U.S., U.K., Russia >or any other country?

bossel - why do I ask such a questin is, that I am interested in recent lawsuits in U.S. In California there's a law that victims in wartime can sue companies of enemy countries for compensation, and Japan also have several cases.
However, as Japanese government has settled this issue off at Sanfrancisco treaty soon after the war, now we are free of further responsibility and can insist "year, we did pay you already."

see this news.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20031008a5.htm

I heard Germany has not done this yet, and there will be a lot of court cases going on so just curious.....

KenUmedaira

Oct 8, 2003, 11:03

Sorry for continuous posting

bossel - I searched on the internet for Germany's postwar reparation. And found several sites explaining about it.

Please let me know if wrong - in short, Germany did pay for those individuals, but has not tied peace treaty with the Allies.
(one website explains this is because Germany was separate, and West Germany wanted to tackle this problem after re-united.)
Meanwhile Japanese governmend has finished tieing peace treaties at Sanfrancisco, and has already paid to governments of all countries involved in WWII (except North Korea, which Japan does not regard as a legitimate nation).
All of those countries have agreed to give up rights for compenstion by receiving agreed reparatio amount.

Considering this, now Japan has already given money to those governments and it is them, not Japan, who has to deliver the money to those individuals. We cannot ignore those governments and scatter money abroad, as it would be against all those peace treaty.

After studing it, I still think Germany has not finished what Japan has done to settle off issues in WWII... what do you think?

bossel

Oct 8, 2003, 11:15

I think, only revisionists doubt the fact that there actually was a massacre in Nanjing. The only question is the number of casualties, 10000, 100000 or 300000. This issue seems to be settled even for most Japanese historians. Look at my link above (I assumed you'd come up with this fabrication story, that's why i provided the link).

The German reparations are a bit more complicated because in the final settlement regarding reparations from 1952/3 the issue of forced labour was exempted, to be reviewed after German re-unification.

In general German war reparations were done with in 1953. Later, in bilateral global agreements with several countries settlements for victim compensation (partly except forced labour) were reached.

In 1999 a foundation was created which should compensate all who were forced to work in Germany. The lawsuits in the US have been settled by the creation of this foundation, quote: "all claims against German companies arising from their
involvement in National Socialism should be pursued through the foundation instead of the courts."

I'm not aware of still pending lawsuits anywhere.

bossel

Oct 8, 2003, 11:34

The records were returned to Japan in the late 1950's & early '60's for what I know.

Anyway, I don't think the USA was able to capture all files that ever existed. Most were probably destroyed.

joho

Oct 8, 2003, 11:40

Whatever the compensation and monetary settlements, there should be sincerity in those acts.

Germany showed geniune sorrow and have apologised profusely for war crimes committed by Hitlers men. Japan has yet to admit guilt and has not issued any sincere apology .

Money means nothing to hundreds of thousands of murdered civilians in WWII. Money cant bring the dead back to life again.

The irony of Japan's Military Government excuse for war - to liberate Asia from western control. Instead of liberating Asians, Japanese soldiers went on a murder campaign in which civilians in Singapore were indiscriminately picked and summarily executed. This was done just to instill fear and co-operation from the locals.

According to my grandmother, at the first day of their occupation in Singapore, Japanese soldiers rounded up about 5,000 innocent young men and executed them at Changi Beach !

My grandfather 's head was displayed at a bridge. He was a young community leader. I do not know him as I was'nt born that time.

KenUmedaira

Oct 8, 2003, 12:38

bossel:

>I think, only revisionists doubt the fact that there actually was a massacre in Nanjing.

I don't know or care about your definition of "revisionist," but this is not true any more after Mr. Higashinakano has proved it did not happen, and was a pure wartime propaganda. The guy reported this incident to west was hired by Chinese natinalist party - the record was found in Taiwan.
Also the proofs of slaughter were only testimonies. Skulls displayed at Nanjing museum in China has not shown when those people were killed - fyi the place had so many wars during Chinese history. What made you believe this, by the way?

About German reparation - is there any website explaining the reparation in 1953?

> In 1999 a foundation was created which should compensate
Year, I read it somewhere but don't know if compensation has been already done - what I read was that the offered price was way too low compared with requested amount. If you know further please let me know?
Also, one question - why is it a foundation, not a government? any reason?

- Unit 731
I have not read that. Then, what's written in the record?

Hi joho:
The thing is, Japan did apologize for several times. I don't know what you mean by "sincerity" - but I don't think there are no better sincerity than making Japanese aplogize for several times, tie peace treaty and reparation. Japan did that all.
Besides, treaty and reparation was done between two countries, and the other part did admit all issues in past is over.
And Japan is not eager to invade other countries, of course.

Oh, forgot to say this - Japan did liberate asian countries from western control. Some are thankful (ex. Indonesia, Burma, India) - some are not. I don't care - Japan is not asking them to thank us, of course. Japan did it to protect Japan. But there were soldiers who believed in the ideal and I respect it.

>According to my grandmother
how could she tell those 5,000 people were innocent?

joho

Oct 8, 2003, 13:53

Ken -

"How could you tell 5000 people were innocent. ..." This question reminded me of post-war war crime hearings, most Japanese Commanders used that same line....they justified the killings by saying criminals were executed not innocent civilians. They did that inspite of evidences against them from live witnesses ...and admissions from fellow japanese soldiers.

I am tellling you from facts related to us by our trusted ancestors and you are asking this unbelievably evasive question? You are telling me my grandmother lied? Her village friends and school friends were in the first batch slaugthered by Japanese troops.

Since you are asking for it let me give you references to read up and digest....

http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/WeirdWildWeb/courses/theo1/projects/2001_chen/forgotten_holocaust.htm

http://www.marshallnet.com/~manor/ww2/atrocity.html

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

Btw, I didnt hear a word of sorry or apology from you - for my grandfather's murder by Japanese soldier.

visit: www.singaporean.per.sg/arthur/html

joho

Oct 8, 2003, 14:05

Japan did not apologise until recently. Kunichiro Koizumi had no choice. China is now a powerful country, both economically and militarily, and China insists nothing short of a formal apology will mend the past.

Question -

Millions of innocent lives were snubbed out in Asia by Japanese troops.

For 60 years, Japan refused to admit guilt and DID NOT apologise for their WWII murderous acts.

WHY ?

senseiman

Oct 8, 2003, 14:19

I agree with Joho, asking "how could she tell those 5,000 people were innocent?" is a truly disgusting thing to say. An apology is definitely necessary, questioning the honesty of someone's grandmother is extremely rude, especially given the obvious personal connection Joho has with this issue.

The fact is that the Japanese had no right to be in Singapore and that any Singaporean killed by the Japanese was innocent by virtue of the illegitimacy of the Japanese occupation.

Japan certainly did not liberate any countries, it conquered them and treated them just as badly if not worse than the Europeans did. And after being 'liberated' by the Japanese they went right back to being European colonies after the war anyway.

I think what Joho means by a lack of sincerity in Japanese apologies is that one day the prime minister says sorry and the next day he goes to Yasakuni Shrine and prays for the dead souls of war criminals. A lot of right wing politicians think like you that Japan did these countries some sort of a favour by invading them. They have no real feeling of guilt over what Japan did, but are in fact proud of it. You will never hear a German politician bragging about how beneficial the occupation of Poland was to the Poles, but Japanese politicians seem to think their occupation of China, in many ways equally as brutal, was somehow charitable.

KenUmedaira

Oct 8, 2003, 14:35

>most Japanese Commanders used the same line
yeah, because they need proof to decide whether or not those applicants were lying. It's just ridiculous to compensate without it. Even you don't do such a thing. Do you pay to me if I suddenly scream out for money, because my lost aunt was raped by your father? I want to be nice to you, but what you are telling me is just illogical.

>Btw, I didnt hear a word of sorry or apology from you - for my grandfather's murder by Japanese soldier.

If it is true it's a sad thing and would not be hesitant to send my condolences, BUT I don't know if that's true - and I cannot apologize to what I don't know if true or not.
What I know is that, there are people who tell lies in this world.

Another thing which makes me sad is that, you are seemingly trying to use your grandfather's death as a tool to discriminate Japanese.
Anyway, I can keep this on and on but really think we should play around with someone's death which cannot be proven to be true - so I recommend we both stop talking about it.

> Question -
Please show me a proof by which I can agree "Millions of innocent lives" were snubbed out.

So far I don't think that's true, although there must have been casualties who were mistaken as spies, or brutally murdered by some (not majority) Japanese soldiers who disobeyed wartime rules.

My counter - question to you :
Why hasn't people bring the "proofs" of crimes of Japanese troops to Japanese embassy or MFA? then they will pay - if they are proven to be true.

KenUmedaira

Oct 8, 2003, 14:50

senseiman,

I also recognize this is not a pleasant thing to talk about - how to prove if those killed were innocent or not.
But this is unavoidable when someone tells such a thing on a net and suddenly ask for apology (and even more).
We all know it's cannot be proved, so why don't we talk about something more productive or fruitful?

>it conquered them and treated them just as badly if not worse than the Europeans did

just one point - Japan paid money to them when those countries became independent, while no Europeans or conquerers in America or Australia paid to those natives.
There are still so many bad words on this issue, but I believe Japan's liberation of some asian countries (may not be all countries, though) would be correctly evaluated in future.

About YasukuniJinja - serious error in your comment.
There are no war criminals in Yasukuni jinja.
Those several dozens who were jailed or executed by the Allies - based on Tokyo Trials, but the trials were nothing but mere revenge by the Allied powers. Japanese government has officially announced that long time ago. Anyway, Yasukuni and many Jinja in Japan are place to calm souls of those who died in tragedy - and going there is not an encouragement of war.

And if those asian countries do not like it, why don't they call back ambassadors and close doors of relationships?

KenUmedaira

Oct 8, 2003, 15:02

One more thing about Yasukunijinja.

This is an illogical claim from China and Korea:
It was not until 1985 China firstly claimed about Japanese Prime minister going to Yasukunijinja. But until then this was regularly done (after WWII, some 40 times by Japanese Prime Minister) and they said nothing. NOTHING.
China suddenly started this as if they have been concerned for hell of a long time - and this is obviously for political purpose.
Besides, current Chinese government is a communist government, and Japan didn't fight them. Japan fought GuoMing party which were against communist party and later "retrieved" to Taiwan.

joho

Oct 8, 2003, 17:35

Ken

If you cease to be sceptical maybe you will start to believe and trust in the goodness of others.

I am really glad for this chance opportunity to air my grievances about Japan's past aggression to a real live Japanese. I started searching for answers for a long time. Why? Because my family often talked about our grandfather. I even begun searching the internet to chat with a few British War veterans who are still alive. That's how I found Arthur Lane (refer to my website: www.singaporean.per.sg/arthur.html). You can write to Arthur and asked him if I talked to him about my grandfather's death under Japanese samurai sword.

Now, at least I know my grandfather would be pleased that I have spoken to a Japanese about his murder . I am more convinced now, why Japan refuses to sincerely apologise for the death of millions of fellow Asians. I salute your nationalistic spirit albeit in the wrong spirit.

senseiman

Oct 8, 2003, 18:53

Ken, you seem to be of the beleif that the Japanese commited NO crimes during the war, which I find very hard to believe.

Its true that the western countries haven't paid any compensation or made apologies for their colonial rule, while Japan has in some cases. But that is seperate from the issue of whether Japan 'liberated' or 'conquered' those countries in the first place. It seems quite clear from the historical record (as well as common sense) that the Japanese didn't invade these countries because they wanted the people to be free, it was purely motivated by self-interest.

As for the Tokyo trials, they were one-sided and hypocritical. But that does not exonerate the Japanese for the atrocities they commited, it just means that a lot of Allied generals should have been tried for war crimes too.

bossel

Oct 9, 2003, 03:39

Nanjing massacre:
Have you read the link? I think, it says that even most Japanese historians now agree that there was a massacre.
There was not only 1 witness.
My sources are mostly Western (not Chinese, if you might think so), partly from the internet.

German reparations:
Don't know of any recent website, but you can find some numbers in my attachment. It's from Fisch: "Reparationen nach dem 2. Weltkrieg", calculated on the basis of 1938 dollar-value.
Ost-/Gesamtdeutschland = Eastern/whole Germany
ﾃ穆terreich = Austria
offiziell = official
Gesamtleistungen = overall compensations
Besatzungskosten = cost of allied occupation
pro Kopf = per capita

bossel

Oct 9, 2003, 03:53

foundation:
It was created due to the fact that individual companies were sued for forced labour compensation. It's supposed to compensate all claims against German companies, so they can go on in their business without constantly dealing with individual law suits. It was created in mutual consent of victims' organizations, economy & the gouvernments of Germany & the US.
German gouvernment & economy both paid into the fund.

More info:
http://www.unc.edu/depts/europe/papers/030416seifert.pdf

Unit 731:
The records are in Japan, ask your gouvernment. The copies in the US have only been made publicly available rather recently, they (the NARA, I think) have only just begun to examine it. The US administration itself has not made public any content yet, AFAIK.

KenUmedaira

Oct 26, 2003, 19:46

joho, senseiman and bossel:

Please forgive my absence for long time as I was involved in business trips as well as tourism to Singapore:

There are so many things going on here simultaneously so I just start again with important things.

joho:
I have been studying about activities of Japanese Imperial force in Singapore. So far what I have found out is, that there were many Chinese Singaporeans who were killed by Japanese Army (technically this term is incorrect - actually it should be called Chinese UK citizens in Singapore, as Singapore was a part of UK and Japan was fighting against UK, not to asian countries).

How this happened was, UK troops surrendered after Japanese force conquered the island, with mutual agreement that UK troops and Chinese voluntary soldiers disarm. But a part of the Chinese soldiers ignored this and disguised themselves into lay people (this is against international customs and Hague Treaty) - which made Japanese force start searching for the soldiers.

There were five Japanese troops in Singapore although three of them kept out of main city in order to avoid troubles.
One of the two troops was led by Satoru Ohnishi - according to his book their group had several lay people wear masks to keep them annonymous and had them testify names of doubtful people. Then they also checked with lists of anti-Japanese societies - by this method they executed at largest 1,000 people.

About the other troops I have not yet found record, but I read an article about Mamoru Shinozaki, an ex-officer at Japanese consulate there, who helped innocent Chinese Singaporeans from executions by a lieutenant-colonel named Tsuji. And it reports there must have been cases which Tsuji ordered his men to "execute" suspects although that was not an intention of up above.

Therefore, now I do believe there were such casualties like you mentioned. Even though it was caused by one crazy commander and not the whole intention of Japanese Imperial force - as Tsuji's order was refused for several times as some of his men didn't believe them. Also there were Japanese who protected Chinese Singaporeans like Shinozaki. Besides those Chinese voluntary soldiers are also to blame, as they ignored the risk of involving citizens into purge.
However I am to send my condolences to those innocent people who were slaughtered and sending my personal apology for remarks which may have offended you.

Senseiman:
I think you misunderstood - I have never said Japanese commited NO crimes at war. In fact, there is not even one country who did not commit any war crimes.
Japan did send forces to European colonies in Asia and its purpose was of course self-defence for the first place. However I still believe it was also their wish to liberate those countries - but for a reason related to self defence as well. Japanese force surely knew they could not keep fighting without help of other asian people, and Japanese soldiers did help independence of Burma, India, Malaysia, Indonesia to name a few.
But, if Japan had won the war the world would not have been as good as this reality today - and I think it was good for the world to have Japan lose the war and became peaceful nation.

bossel:
Nanjin massacre - in fact some support this, some don't here.
And as far as I searched Nihon Nanking Gakkai has shown the most
detailed and reliable data which deny this incident.

German reparations - thanks for explanation - however I am somewhat unable to open the bmp file. Don't know why. But if my understanding is correct foundation has solved the problem so there will be no more lawsuits in U.S.? I would appreciate your thoughts.

Unit 731 - thanks info, I will try serching for records.

KenUmedaira

Oct 26, 2003, 20:30

I just want to correct a sentence in my previous post:

>one crazy commander
Actually there were more than one serviceman who had bad feelings against Chinese in Singapore and there must have been more than one who led to the same behavior as Tsuji did.
The article I read explain this is because Chinese in Singapore and Malaysia financially assisted Chinese Nationalists led by Jiang Jie Shi who fought against Japan, and those Chinese organized anti-Japanese resistance as well as voluntary force when Japan fought UK in Singapore.

joho< if you are interested in the article I can briefly translate it for you.

bossel

Oct 26, 2003, 23:57

bmp-file:
I think, it works when you right-click on it, then "save [link] target as..." (depends on your browser).

reparations:
For what I know, all cases of forced labour in the US will be dealt with by the foundation. I have not heard recently of any pending law suits there.
But I think, for quite a while into the future there will be people all over the world trying to get compensation although the gouvernments have already bilateral agreements. Most of those cases will probably be dismissed, though.

joho

Oct 27, 2003, 08:05

Hi Ken

I am faintly aware of that article. Of course there were other war atrocities cases and testimonies from Japanese soldiers against their own commanders.

I find no pleasure in blaming any Japanese or British soldier for killing civilians. If anyone should be blamed for war atrocities, it should be the head of state or military rulers. Foot soldiers were forced to kill because maybe they believe in military propoganda or nationalism. Or simply it's because they had to kill, or be killed - by their own commander or enemy.

http://www.tumj.com

KenUmedaira

Oct 27, 2003, 10:07

Hi joho,

>Foot soldiers were forced to kill because maybe they believe in military propoganda or nationalism

After studying this history my opinion is that those foot soldiers obeyed orders to execute "suspects for terrorism" although some of them surely knew innocent people must have been confused in the arrested (that's why there were soldiers who double-checked orders or demanded written command to find out Tsuji's order was true).
But the main reason I suppose they must have believed they had to do it, was in order to maintain safety of the city.

If anyone should be blamed.... If so, I think some of Chinese voluntary soldiers should be blamed as well as those bad commanders like Masanobu Tsuji. They should have disarmed at least. Those guys chose to carry weapons and use civilians as "shields" to protect them which I think is the largest reason for involving civilians into tragedy.
Once occupation started Japan was responsible for maintaining public peace in the city, so they could not have ignored the fact that there were a risk of terror by armed Chinese voluntary soldiers - which reminds me of current situation U.S. troops have been facing in Iraq.

joho, I am just curious - is there anyone who also criticize the action those Chinese voluntary soldiers took? It is a fact that they ignored the truce condition and put many civilians' lives in jeopardy - if we both are to learn something from history this should be mentioned as well....

joho

Oct 27, 2003, 13:24

In WWII, anyone who defended Singapore against Japanese aggression is a hero in the eyes of Singaporean, Asians and the world!

Unfortunately you were not there to see the dead civilian bodies after Japanese Bombers strafed Singapore day and night. Thousands died in the initial air assaults by Japan. Those airial bombings were carried out to cower the population so that Singaporeans would submit to Japanese Occupation.

KenUmedaira

Oct 27, 2003, 14:07

noted your idea but several things Chinese voluntary soldiers did were obviously wrong, especially they involved civilians into fight against Japanese force. And some Japanese commanders like Tsuji did wrong things. So I still believe the responsibility rests with both sides, and it is essential to realize how and why it happened in order to prevent such thing happen again.
Japanese soldiers are heros in Japan - as well as those soldiers in Singapore - I do pay respect to them, but I have not forgotten this.

Remember, guerrilla tactics were, and still are not allowed - it's a war crime. This rule must have been kept in order to protect civilians. It was unfortunate your heros were the first to ignore rights of innocent civilians and gave reasons to bad commander like Tsuji chance to justify his cruel wish. Singaporeans should keep this in mind, too - it is easy, but not sufficient to blame Japanese side only. Because of the terrors under Japanese occupation, they had to start searching for terrorists.

>Unfortunately you were not there to see
you were not there, either, right? We both just heard from someone else.
I know war at that time always involved civilians and it is really tragic. But it does not justify Chinese voluntary soldiers to ignore truce rules and risk civilians' lives. Nor does it justify Masanobu Tsuji's insane "Sook Ching" orders which was personally issued.

traveljapan

Nov 21, 2003, 01:05

Originally posted by KenUmedaira
Japanese government did pay compensation... you guys don't know it?

What about all the U.S. POWs in WWII held by the Japanese? They were never compensated for the tortures they went through, and their treatment was clearly against the Geneva Convention. They also were forced to work for Japanese companies during the war. In the 1950s, the Japanese and U.S. governments made an agreement to not pursue these issues for trade reasons. There are efforts to reverse this, and allow former U.S. POWs to be compensated, but politicians are always leery of rocking the boat, and the years continue to pass.

Watcher

Feb 9, 2005, 01:56

I don't want to go ranting again. Please see my posts earlier.

Ken: you are either 1) brainwashed by the faulty Japanese education system... or 2) have a strong bias for Japan if you aren't a Japanese native.

Bottom line: Japan needs to sincerely apologize. Then perhaps, only then, could this issue be started to be put to rest. But you know, I don't see that really happening.

Just my thoughts...

joho

Feb 25, 2005, 17:52

I told myself not to visit this forum again and was surprised when I received notice of Watcher's post recently. So here I am back here after 17 months of absence.

I have added a new page to my website and it's something to do with the Japanese Imperial Army's cruel treatment of hospital patients, nurses and doctors in Singapore. This incident happened just 1 day before British Army surrendered to Japanese Army in 1942.

You can view it at
http://www.singaporean.per.sg/Alexandra_hospital_massacre.html

If any Japanese, especially Ken, still insists on Japan's innocence I suggest you go to -

http://www.s1942.org.sg/dir_defence7.htm

- and find out more of Japanese Imperial Army's atrocities.

lemiel

Mar 7, 2005, 18:26

to Kenumedaira

I read your post
"If it is true it's a sad thing and would not be hesitant to send my condolences, BUT I don't know if that's true - and I cannot apologize to what I don't know if true or not.
What I know is that, there are people who tell lies in this world."

I do not want to critisize you, But If I am you, I will try to find information about that and decide between apologizing and refutation.

so I give this Photo about Japanese troops's war Criminal to you. These acts were so terrible in modern times.... How do you think about that?

http://blog.naver.com/ymwolf__/40005767149

First image is Young girl was killed by Japan police.

Second image is not proof of Japan War criminal.

other image are proof of nanging massacre

that consisted japan newspaper article that praised Japan soldier's beheading competition.

Do you think this photo cannot be proof of Japanese war crime?

Revenant

Mar 7, 2005, 19:39

Those who cannot let go of the past are forever enslaved by the past, and cannot live and experience the now as the now should be experienced. To forgive is much more conducive to happiness.

PaulTB

Mar 7, 2005, 20:02

Those who cannot let go of the past are forever enslaved by the past, and cannot live and experience the now as the now should be experienced. To forgive is much more conducive to happiness.

Forgive, but not necessarily forget and certainly not deny.

lemiel

Mar 7, 2005, 23:08

Yes, To forgive is much more conducive to happiness. I agree.
I think Korea and japan need each other because East asia's peace.
But Who can forgive injurer who deny crime, and be proud his past act?

See this saying...

In 1982, Japan Land minister,"松野幸泰" said
"Korean text book can be wrong, For example, Nobody know right or wrong about Korean history text that was written that japan invaded korea"

In 1986, education minister"Husio Masayuki" said first
"Do not say again! malcontent think about his nation did same thing in history"
and apologized saying. but he say "I remain my opinion in politicion"

and education minister"Husio Masayuki" said second
"If Invasion were, Victim people thought about their problem. at that time, Whoever made korea to colony, so Japan's invasion was not perfect true. Victim nation had blame and trouble" and he was fired.

and "Husio Masayuki" said third in 文藝春秋
"at that time, Japan's politic was same imperialism with Western Power. but, it's unfairness that only japan was critisize. Korea was inability and weak. the half responsibility of "unhappy history between korea and japan" was Korean's"

in 1995, Watanabe michio, past diplomatic minister said
"Japan controlled korea. but there was not colonization in San Francisco's agreement, so Annex was lawful. It was not forced. If people call that, [Colonization], [Invasion war], It make many problem"

in 1996, the general affairs department minister "Eto dakami" said
"at that time, Japan's invasion was bad. but did good thing. Japanese did not think that korean were Colony people. and We did not steal cultural assets of korea, china(****, Too many cultural assets were stolen and robbed) like england, France."
and In Off the record "Murayama's apologizing was not true"

in Obuchi ministry, Japan agriculture minister "中川昭一" said
" Forced Sex slaves were not true."

In 小泉純一郞(koizmi junichiro)ministry, Japan education minister "nakayama" said
"In new textbook, Reducing "從軍慰安婦, sex slave", "Foced going together" was Good thing."

How do you think? Can you say "they are a few people in japan?"
They were minister, Politician in upper apologizing.
Can you think that true, fomal Apologizing?

In spite of that absurd of Leader of japan, Korean and chinese's Demand that Japan apologize fomal, truly was too excessive and persistencial?

Shooter452

Mar 7, 2005, 23:55

In spite of that absurd of Leader of japan, Korean and chinese's Demand that Japan apologize fomal, truly was too excessive and persistencial?
No, it is not excessive at all. The Japanese were barbaric throughout the war and have yet to totally come to grips with it. Altering the history texts to make themselves out to be victims is disgusting and a crime in itself.

There are no clean hands in the Sino-Japanese or the Pacific War. It was cruel beyond consideration, and all sides approached it from the view of a racial war, where the "other side" was subhuman and deserving of extermination. But Japan must accept greater responsibility and shame for their acts before they can ever purge themselves of those acts. Concealling, fabricating, and prevaricating are not the paths to enlightenment. Only facing squarely and admitting--including some breast-beating and little ashes in the hair--are the only way, and they ain't there yet, folks.

They are still whining about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and saying "look what you did to us!" Their hypocritical eyes refuse to glance at the horribly tupendous acts that were done in their name.

If the Germans were forced to wear a collar of guilt for sixty years because of what happened in Europe, it is only right that the Japanese step up to the plate and take one for the team also.

sabro

Mar 8, 2005, 02:06

The attrocities committed by Japan in China and throughout Asia from the 1930's to the end of WWII are well known by everyone but the Japanese and well documented by any historical standard. The attrocities were appalling, and usually unprovoked and because Japan was the sole aggressor in the area, she bears the entire the fault and reponsibility. Appologies from persons not yet born at the time are probably less important than simple acknowlegement of this past. To excuse it, deny it, or devalue it is a harmful insult to those who suffered and to their descendents.

I watched "The Fog of War" about former Defense Secretary Robert Macnamara.
He spoke of the cruel math that he was involved in during WWII: how many US lives per acre of Japan destroyed...He repeated the quote by Gen Curtis Lemay about being glad that we won the war, because they would be tried as war criminals if they lost. Although every culture tries to paint the best picture of its own history, it does not serve future generations (in Japan, present generations) if that picture is a total fiction. In the US, we need to remember the Indian Wars and attrocities committed against native Americans, slavery, the treatement of Irish, Chinese, Russian and other immigrant groups. Segregation, the Depression and Japanese-American internment. Real History is better than fake. How can you even begin to understand your past if the story you have is not just an optomistic retelling, but an outright lie?

Macnamara also brought up the point that in the days after the first bomb, raids on other targets continued. If Japan had not surrendered, the bombing would have intensified, along with coastal shelling from surface ships until more atomic bombs could be prepared. Millions of civillians would have died.