100.000 crimes commited by US forces in Japan

[Maciamo]

Reading "A Modern History of Japan, by Andrew Gordon" (http://www.jref.com/shop/showproduct.php?product=14&sort=7&cat=12&page=1), I came over the following paragraph.

"In 1960,[...] the American presence amounted to 46.000 troops stationed on several hundred military installations on Japan's 4 main islands, and another 37.000 soldiers in Okinawa.

Local residents detested the noise of these bases and the chronic instances of violence and rape perpetrated by the soldiers. In addition to tens of thousands of traffic accidents, over 100.000 crimes involving off-duty personnel and Japanese citizens took place from 1952 through the 1970's. The majority were incidents of assaults, including rape and murder. Some 500 Japanese were killed in accidents or assaults over these years. Critics were particularily upset because such crimes fell under the juridiction of American military justice."

These are very shocking figures. It is no wonder that (some) Japanese harbour harsh feelings against US soldiers in Japan. This can also give clues on the feeling of the Japanese having to provide help to the US in Iraq nowadays, when they probably feel that it is wrong to station troops in the same way as they have experienced on their soil - but nevertheless have to comply to the US government's whim.

[Anguz]

I'm so bothered by this kind of things. I can't comment more without being nasty. I'm sorry for the japanese that had to suffer those abuses.

:mad:

[Buddha Smoker]

The good thing is that the military presense has slowly been diminishing. I deal with my the US government with certain aspects of my work in Japan and I will tell you sometimes it can be really annoying and I keep thinking that I am not one of those countless idiots.

Also, I wish I still had the paper from my city hall a while back but had some stats in it.

80% of the crime caused in Japan was my foreigners and 50% of that number(or 40% of the 100) was by US military forces. That's a huge number and people begin to wonder why the good foreigners of Japan have such a hard time....now, I'm too angry to speak for the moment...

[kixot]

I was staying near the Iwakuni base whilke in Japan and was told by some people that lots of crimes were not even communicated to the police because they knew that Americans were never touched by law.
That makes me think about the real numbers.

[Buddha Smoker]

That's true and not true...depends how serious the crime was, I think.

[Arc Light]

heh...you wanna know the probable source of all those crimes? As in what influenced them? I'd bet anything alcohol was a major contributor, if not total. An 18-year-old member of the US Military can get alcohol from anywhere...off or on base. And you can blame lack of discipline while growing up as well.

While I was there, we heard about all kinds of crimes committed by US military, and every one of them involved alcohol and/or drunkenness. It's a shame because there actually are servicemen/women who actually enjoy being there, and we get stereotyped with the drunks.

[Distant]

I'm so bothered by this kind of things. I can't comment more without being nasty. I'm sorry for the japanese that had to suffer those abuses.

:mad:


I find myself wondering how sorry you would be if America hadn't won the second World War and occupied Japan and Germany? Prehaps you would have been happier under those militaristic and xenophobic regimes? Both of those societies considered people who were not of their race or background, to be completely disposable. At least America prosecutes her soldiers when they commit crimes.

[Mike Cash]

heh...you wanna know the probable source of all those crimes? As in what influenced them? I'd bet anything alcohol was a major contributor, if not total. An 18-year-old member of the US Military can get alcohol from anywhere...off or on base. And you can blame lack of discipline while growing up as well.


On what do you base the statement that an 18 year old member of the US Military can get alcohol from anywhere, off or on base?

[RedDrawf]

Until recently I had never given this subject much thought, but I now have a Japanese fiancee and she was raped by two US soldiers about 10 years ago,
so now I feel rage when I see the US military.

[Mike Cash]

Until recently I had never given this subject much thought, but I now have a Japanese fiancee and she was raped by two US soldiers about 10 years ago,
so now I feel rage when I see the US military.

That's right. After all, those aren't individual human beings inside those uniforms. They're all rapists.

[Paul-san]

I'm sorry that your wife had to be subject to that type of crime or any crime for that matter. What drives someone to perform such acts has always dumbfounded me. Being a member of the U.S. Air Force and also a past resident of Okinawa while stationed there, I can say that fortunately the poor actions of the ignorant few over the years don't represent the sum of the thousands of dedicated and professional individuals that have served and continue to do so. I was stationed in Japan for 5 yrs, and loved the country, culture, and the people very much. I even was married there. I was there to experience a couple incidents in which a couple U.S. servicemen did something to degrade our reputation, and it hurt me personally. Most of my good friends were local nationals, and to see the betrayal in their eyes when we watched the news broadcast was very unsettling. I actually apologized to them although I had no connection to the act, other than being a U.S serviceman myself. The beautiful part about it was that they (the locals...my friends) actually consoled me. They understood that there is wrong, evil and ignorance in every culture. Unfortunately, not all have a mutual respect for others and themselves. I am proud of my connection with Japan, being an American...and Black-American, and with the Air Force. I also have a 15 year old daughter in Japan that I love and have been unable to locate for years. I keep faith of our reunion daily. She is beautiful...she is 50% Okinawan, and she too is my love connection with that portion of the world. Please don't lay hate on us all. Thank you & God bless you.

[Bob in Iowa]

I'm sorry that your wife had to be subject to that type of crime or any crime for that matter..... Please don't lay hate on us all. .

Very well stated, Paul-san. As a former serviceman, who also spent five years in Japan, I am also hurt by the actions of any US service personnel who perpetrated crimes against the citizens of our host country.

I also have a very personal connection to Japan. While I was there, 30 years ago, I met a young Japanese lady who became my best friend and my wife. Her family graciously accepted me as one of their own, and I adopted Japan as my second homeland.

Many of us came to love Japan and her people very much. At Yokota Air Base, where I was stationed, classes offered by the University of Maryland on base in Japanese language, and Japanese customs were always in high demand, full of people who sincerely wanted to take advantage of this tremendous opportunity to learn more so that they could better appreciate this fascinating country. The air base was like a small American city, and many military people were there with their families, so the stereotype of the base being full of horny wild young men set to rape and plunder is quite inaccurate.

The notion that military personnel who commit crimes against Japanese citizens are always protected by the US military is also wrong. I knew of several people who were turned over to the local authorities for committing crimes that were, under the Status of Forces Agreement, under the jurisdiction of the Japanese government.

I don't think that any country is devoid of individuals who behave in a violent, boorish, and disrepectful manner, and I think that it is unfair to judge the entire population of US military personnel in Japan by the actions of a relative few.

--Bob

[Kimota]

Also, I wish I still had the paper from my city hall a while back but had some stats in it.

80% of the crime caused in Japan was my foreigners and 50% of that number(or 40% of the 100) was by US military forces. That's a huge number and people begin to wonder why the good foreigners of Japan have such a hard time....now, I'm too angry to speak for the moment...

I don't know where your city hall gets its information, but just on the face of it, claiming that 80% of crime in Japan is caused by foreigners and that 50% of that is by the US military is ridiculous and just not plausible. That would be a fulltime job in itself for the military.

A lot of people, such as Tokyo's governor, have claimed foreigners are responsible for most crime in Japan, and have been raked over the coals for having their facts wrong.

It also doesn't jibe with and article posted here some time ago.

Crime in Japan (http://www.jref.com/society/foreign_crime_in_japan.shtml)

[SkippyDaStudent85]

I find myself wondering how sorry you would be if America hadn't won the second World War and occupied Japan and Germany? Prehaps you would have been happier under those militaristic and xenophobic regimes? Both of those societies considered people who were not of their race or background, to be completely disposable. At least America prosecutes her soldiers when they commit crimes.

Yeah... except not. If a gay soldier is attacked or murdered, no one in the military really cares. If a woman in the military is assaulted or raped, same thing. Someone has to complain and complain and complain just to have the matter "looked into", then they have to continue to hound those in charge until any form of charges are made. The lack of faith in the military's "justice system" has caused countless more accosted servicemen/women to not even report such acts because by the time anything is "done" about it, it's too late.

Also, to trivialize what happened to the Japanese at the hands of their American occupiers is just wrong. Surely, no one (except neo-Nazis and anti-Semetics) trivializes the Holocaust. Americans have proven their lack of caring for other nationalities on several accounts, though not as fanatically as Nazi Germany (at least, not yet). Need I point out the prison camps in the US containing German-American and Japanese-American citizens who were detained because they MIGHT have been traitors. Then, once their innocence is proved, America makes little effort to compensate for their actions.

I understand the whole "to the victors go the spoils" idea, but to call any crime less because we won a war is almost as bad as having lost the war to begin with.

Another side thing that saddens me about American relations with Japan is the latest major anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Now don't get me wrong, I believe the attack was completely wrong. My problem, though, is that we felt that the apologies of the Japanese pilots for their part in the attack was owed to us. Once again, I'm not 100% against the idea, but shouldn't we have apologized for using 2 ATOMIC WEAPONS on them, even though we won? Several historians have said that looking back, it was quite possible to end the war without using them. But I guess we will never know...

I'm done ranting for now. *waits for the bashing to begin*

[sabro]

Most members of the US military conduct themselves quite well. However I can imagine that some of them don't. When you have a group of mostly young men, sometimes away from home for the first time in a distant land, some believing they are untouchable, some drunk, some comming off of battlefields and out of jungles...sometimes they get out of hand, sometimes worse. When you have a group of thousands, there are bound to be some bad ones, and some very bad ones. Hopefully most of these thugs, morons, and animals got some form of justice.

Specifically, I don't know much about what US soldiers do or don't do overseas. 500 murders over twenty years works out to 25 murders a year or 2.5 per month. 100,000 crimes is 50,000 per year or 2500 per month. For a highly transient mobile population of about 100,000 soldiers at any one time, including soldiers on leave from Korea and Vietnam, and sailors from ships. Without knowing the total number that came through Japan (an instead attributing all the crimes to those stationed in Japan) it is impossible to know if these numbers represent a high rate or one that is quite reasonable. It is also impossible to know from this what the US military's response was, and how many were charged and how the convicted were punished.

I wouldn't try to minimize the pain and anger of someone's personal experience. Victims of crime deserve justice. No one deserves to be a victim.

I also understand how frustrated the Japanese are when they can't arrest and punish those committing crimes against their own citizens on their own soil. I can't imagine this being acceptable to Americans in the United States. It's almost like having thousands of nineteen year olds running around California, each with diplomatic immunity.

I have one friend that as a nineteen year old sailor, "busted up a bar" in Yokohama and hospitalized a few people back in the 1980's. He spent eighteen months in brigs on ships-- they were supposed to transfer him to San Diego, but somehow he just kept making circles around the pacific. He had to do another 3 months here, and then he was dishonorably discharged. He could have gotten a harsher sentence, but at least you all can know that some of these miscreants do get punished.

[playaa]

This kind of stuff really agrivates me, being I do know this happens ALOT people seem to think that since they are in the military they are entitled privileges, though it carries heavy penalties for the military members involved in such acts as this, it still happens. It gives people that do not participate in these types of things and appreciate the cultures and hospitality of foreign countries bad names/face.. And the locals usually get a certain bad assumption that we are all this way.. I will never understand why.... :/

[babar-san]

Reading "A Modern History of Japan, by Andrew Gordon" (http://www.jref.com/shop/showproduct.php?product=14&sort=7&cat=12&page=1), I came over the following paragraph.

"In 1960,[...] the American presence amounted to 46.000 troops stationed on several hundred military installations on Japan's 4 main islands, and another 37.000 soldiers in Okinawa.

Local residents detested the noise of these bases and the chronic instances of violence and rape perpetrated by the soldiers. In addition to tens of thousands of traffic accidents, over 100.000 crimes involving off-duty personnel and Japanese citizens took place from 1952 through the 1970's. The majority were incidents of assaults, including rape and murder. Some 500 Japanese were killed in accidents or assaults over these years. Critics were particularily upset because such crimes fell under the juridiction of American military justice."

These are very shocking figures. It is no wonder that (some) Japanese harbour harsh feelings against US soldiers in Japan. This can also give clues on the feeling of the Japanese having to provide help to the US in Iraq nowadays, when they probably feel that it is wrong to station troops in the same way as they have experienced on their soil - but nevertheless have to comply to the US government's whim.



jeeeezzzuuusssss......i had no idea the figures were that high:( they seriously should consider giving the japanese authorities jurisdiction over these offenses, thats just plain insulting to think that american troops could potentially get away with much more than if they were charged by a japanese court. makes me ashamed to admit their from my country. :souka:

[Bob in Iowa]

jeeeezzzuuusssss......i had no idea the figures were that high:( they seriously should consider giving the japanese authorities jurisdiction over these offenses, thats just plain insulting to think that american troops could potentially get away with much more than if they were charged by a japanese court. makes me ashamed to admit their from my country. :souka:

I wouldn't hang my hat on the accuracy of the figures in the article or on the accuracy of the perception that US military personnel stationed in Japan are immune to prosecution by Japanese authorities. During the time that I was stationed in Japan as a member of the USAF, I personally knew several people who were turned over to the Japanese police after being caught by the US military authorities for commiting crimes in which the local police had jurisdiction. This was done in compliance with the Status of Forces agreement that was in effect at the time.

[DoctorP]

I wouldn't hang my hat on the accuracy of the figures in the article or on the accuracy of the perception that US military personnel stationed in Japan are immune to prosecution by Japanese authorities. During the time that I was stationed in Japan as a member of the USAF, I personally knew several people who were turned over to the Japanese police after being caught by the US military authorities for commiting crimes in which the local police had jurisdiction. This was done in compliance with the Status of Forces agreement that was in effect at the time.


There are many military personnel in Japanese prisons now for various crimes...in fact the Japanese authorities usually do gain jurisdiction over military members. There is usually a short delay to ensure that the servicemember in question is the correct person though! If a military member is arrested by the Japanese authorities, he remains in their possesion until charged or released. The only time there is a question on turning them over is if the authorities have to retrieve the member from a base...the only reason for the delay is to ensure that the military members rights are not refused.

[ippolito]

I think that if an us soldier drunk as many....when they go out for fun
make phisical injuries to person (japanese western but a person)
is on charge of the local police to arrest him immediately as he will pay in jail of what he did...
I d not understand why for most of americans fun is drink beer gin
whisky etc...what about nice women or a nice film
why on your society the drink is so important...even in the morning.
Driving drunk can be like a killer on the road...do they realize this?
The problem is that, it is real that in many countries drink is important more than other things...but whe we are talking about militars in an
another country they should be an example for the natives...
they should not be aware to go somewere in saturday knights when many soldiers get drunk as always....

[jerry4]

isn't andrew gordon lady d's autobiographer?

[Kimota]

I d not understand why for most of americans fun is drink beer gin
whisky etc...what about nice women or a nice film
why on your society the drink is so important...even in the morning.


It's not. In the morning? What are you talking about?! Don't believe every Bruce Willis movie you see. I think you'll find that Americans drink in the same proportion as people in just about every other country, on average. If you really want to go to a country where alcohol is a central part of society, try Japan. Alcohol and drunk driving laws in America are such that if you have one beer, you're drunk driving, so you'd really have to be nuts to go anywhere and drink, unless you have a designated driver.

Many people go on dates and to the movies. Not everyone spends their night crying into a bottle.

[sabro]

Lots of Americans don't drink at all. Lots of US soldiers don't drink, and most do not commit crimes.

[Maciamo]

I d not understand why for most of americans fun is drink beer gin
whisky etc...what about nice women or a nice film
why on your society the drink is so important...even in the morning.

Actually, if we look at the statistics of alcohol sales per country and divide it by the number of inhabitants, we see that the Italians (then the French) have the highest consumption of wine (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_win_con) per capita among developed countries. For beer (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_bee_con), the heavist drinkers are the Irish, Germans, Austrians and Belgians. For strong alcohol like whisky, the Japanese are first ! The Americans don't rank so high for any kind of alcohol (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_tot_spi_con). But I guess it's normal since they can't drink before 21, so the average is forcedly lower than in Europe. However, Americans beat everybody when it comes to soft drink consumption (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_sof_dri_con) (an American drinks on average 4,2x more soft drinks than an Italian and 10x more than a Japanese).

[Shooter452]

There are many military personnel in Japanese prisons now for various crimes...in fact the Japanese authorities usually do gain jurisdiction over military members. There is usually a short delay to ensure that the servicemember in question is the correct person though! If a military member is arrested by the Japanese authorities, he remains in their possesion until charged or released. The only time there is a question on turning them over is if the authorities have to retrieve the member from a base...the only reason for the delay is to ensure that the military members rights are not refused.

THANK YOU!

And it is about time that the nonsense being spouted here was addressed!

The Japanese authorities have had full jurisdiction of felonies committed on Japanese soil against Japanese nationals since at least 1972 on Okinawa, and some time before that on the mainland. Japanese Police on Okinawa would come onto the bases to the PMO and submit arrest warrants. The military authorities were not permitted to refuse those warrants and could only delay the transfer of accused personnel long enough to assert the possible validity of the crimes--in cases of mistaken identification sometimes the JP's could be satisfied that the accused was not the proper perp, but usually to be accused was sufficient cause to detain.

All Americans who do not bear diplomatic passports are subject to Japanese law. They are adjudicated in Japanese courts and languish in Japanese prisons if convicted. During the time I spent with PMO on Okinawa in 1979-80, only three accused Marines I know of were found "not guilty" when taken before the bar in Japan. All the other were convicted. To be a US serviceman in Japan was often sufficient proof to convict in Japanese courts.

I am not saying that these men were wrongly convicted. I worked with Japanese investigators. They are painstaking detectives who present very thorough cases to the prosecutors. They do not grant the accused as many rights as are common in US courts, but the courts in Japan are what they are. Res ipsa loquitur.

My point is that all this talk about the invulnerability of US military personnel in Japan is--by my personal experience--a load of bilge, to be kindly toward those who bespeak it. In short, they do not know what the hell they are talking about. You fill in the blanks for yourself.

The point being, when US personnel are admitted to Japan, they are thoroughly briefed on their status as guests. They are warned to be wary of the authorities and to avoid even the appearence of felonious conduct. They are told that if they act in an inappropriate way, in the opinion of the Japanese authorities, they will get their pee-pees slapped in a screen door. And that is usually exactly what happens.

I do not defend the conduct of some US servicemen. Some ot the acts I have seen are reprehensible, and deserve punishment. In the case of one such act, perpetrated on a Japanese school girl (the phrase itself has become a cliche, but this was exactly the case), the perps are sitting in prison in Naha, unless they have been moved to the mainland. They will sit there for the rest of their lives. It is what it is.

I cannot validate the numbers quoted and I really feel that they seem outrageously high. Still, I have not the evidence to refute them either.

[lexico]

"Stereotyping is diminingshing," says the following excerpt from Alan Levy's "An American Jew in Vienna." (http://www.cas.umn.edu/WP002.HTM)
Then how can I reduce a person into a statistic?

"I have frequently been asked to give my personal definition of anti-Semitism, and I reply instinctively as an assimilated Jew forced to fly the flag in a state of siege: 'It’s when anyone thinks of me as a Jew first and Alan Levy second—a definition, I admit, that makes a number of Jews anti-Semitic, too.' The encounter with the deputy mayor of Vienna enabled me to expand my horizons of thought. We all like to think we are unique. I even like to think Mr. Mayor Mayr is unique. Anyone who tells me he knows my kind is not only diminishing himself and me but also his fellow beings."

[Japan4Life]

Yeah... except not. If a gay soldier is attacked or murdered, no one in the military really cares. If a woman in the military is assaulted or raped, same thing. Someone has to complain and complain and complain just to have the matter "looked into", then they have to continue to hound those in charge until any form of charges are made. The lack of faith in the military's "justice system" has caused countless more accosted servicemen/women to not even report such acts because by the time anything is "done" about it, it's too late.
What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know anything about the military? Christ, I have never heard such a shallow statement. Someone can be murdered and no one cares? What are you, locked in a freakin box? Like any american citizen, military members to prosecuted, however, unlike in America, ALL cases of murder are known about and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We have no immunity. If anything, we get prosecuted worse in a military court then we would in a civilian court. Plus, if it happened in the US or another country on thier soil, that service member is subject to prosecution from both the military courts and the local jurisdiction. So please, don't talk out of you ass. Especially if you have no freakin idea what you are talkin about.

I also understand how frustrated the Japanese are when they can't arrest and punish those committing crimes against their own citizens on their own soil. I can't imagine this being acceptable to Americans in the United States. It's almost like having thousands of nineteen year olds running around California, each with diplomatic immunity.
Does anyone really even know what they are talkin about? Diplomatic immunity? Ok, it's very obvious you have no concept of military justice or foriegn judicial jurisdiction. If you don't know what you are talking about, do say anything, because it makes you look more like an ass. Personally, I don't care if I offend any of you. If you are stupid, I should expect you be humiliated publicly. Then you'll learn to know what you are talkin about before you open your "man pleasures".

Crime in Japan (http://www.jref.com/society/foreign_crime_in_japan.shtml)
Did anyone actually read this before ranting on like a bunch of ignorant, arrogant assholes? He posted it for a reason. Do your homework before getting into a debate. Oh that's right, they don't teach Americans how to do homework.

Americans have proven their lack of caring for other nationalities on several accounts, though not as fanatically as Nazi Germany (at least, not yet).
Do you honestly believe the words that come out of your mouth?


Look, I do not by any means like America. I was born and raised in America, but I would turn arms against the US military and fight for the Japanese in a heart beat. I have American military experience, the details of which I will not mention. I know that most military members are uncultured and dumb and do stupid things, but that's not the military, it's Americans. They are almost all uncultured, loud, and do stupid things--like talk on subjects they know nothing about. I personally hate Americans with an unruley passion. However, I'm not gonna sit here and let someone speak completely out of their ass about something they don't know anything about. Believe it or not, just cause you watched the military channel that morning, doesn't mean you know enough to be able to carry on a liable debate and make any freakin sense. I do support of a free Japan. Like I said, I would fight against the US to free Japan, without hesitation. So, America's day will come. Japan will have its freedom. However, Japan isn't innocent either. No country is. All countries have their dark history. So quit crying.

-GH

[suirai]

Reading "A Modern History of Japan, by Andrew Gordon" (http://www.jref.com/shop/showproduct.php?product=14&sort=7&cat=12&page=1), I came over the following paragraph.

"In 1960,[...] the American presence amounted to 46.000 troops stationed on several hundred military installations on Japan's 4 main islands, and another 37.000 soldiers in Okinawa.

Local residents detested the noise of these bases and the chronic instances of violence and rape perpetrated by the soldiers. In addition to tens of thousands of traffic accidents, over 100.000 crimes involving off-duty personnel and Japanese citizens took place from 1952 through the 1970's. The majority were incidents of assaults, including rape and murder. Some 500 Japanese were killed in accidents or assaults over these years. Critics were particularily upset because such crimes fell under the juridiction of American military justice."

These are very shocking figures. It is no wonder that (some) Japanese harbour harsh feelings against US soldiers in Japan. This can also give clues on the feeling of the Japanese having to provide help to the US in Iraq nowadays, when they probably feel that it is wrong to station troops in the same way as they have experienced on their soil - but nevertheless have to comply to the US government's whim.

Any scholar will tell you that the use of such general terms and loose statistical information as I see in that paragraph quoted should instantly raise red flags. This is such a load of nonsense it's unbelievable. Of course, if you want to believe this nonsense you will.

I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, but I happen to have in a folder on my desktop with the latest stats from the Japanese government to get you started on specific numbers and then I'll get back to this tomorrow, I hope, with some stats on foreigners and crime.

This sort of reminds me of discussions that result from Ishihara's rants against foreigners. Sad, sad, sad!!!

http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/figures/index.htm#w
.
.
.

[changedonrequest]

I read through the posts here on this thread and would like to make a few comments.
Number one the facts that the OP is stating relates to events that occured roughly 30 to 50 years ago. To assume that things are like that today is just being plain out ignorant. Anyone can rehash history. Okinawa in particular was under US jurisdiction until 1972 and people need to remember what the hell else was going on during that time period as well. VIETNAM, Okinawa and Japan were R&R stops for troops coming out of the jungles in Vietnam, the US combat forces stationed in Vietnam were mostly draftees and not volunteers as in todays military.

Things are different today than compared to even 10 or 20 years ago, did you all know that liberty for US Airmen is currently curtailed do to problems that have occured in the past few weeks here in Okinawa, there is a curfew from 10PM to 5Am for people not being allowed to go off base. In the past that was rarely if ever heard of. Education and training for the troops has increased compared to before, the military are more sensitive to issues regarding the Japanese people than ever before, things are not perfect, and crimes will continue to happen but at least there is more accountability today than in the not too distant past.

As a sidebar here, there have been crimes committed here in Japan that I wish the US Military would have prosecuted and NOT the Japanese courts, why do I say that, because in many cases the Japanese courts are MORE lienent than the US Military would be. Not too many years ago 3 service members in Okinawa were sent to Japanese prison for statutory rape of a young Japanese girl, they got between 6 to 8 years respectively, I am willing to bet the US Military would have sentenced to to much longer sentences if they had jurisdiction, anyone here think otherwise.
Well that's my 2 cents....

Hindsight is 20/20 people please don't forget that.

[Mike Cash]

Not too many years ago 3 service members in Okinawa were sent to Japanese prison for statutory rape of a young Japanese girl, they got between 6 to 8 years respectively, I am willing to bet the US Military would have sentenced to to much longer sentences if they had jurisdiction, anyone here think otherwise.


From the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ):

920. ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(c) Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete either of these offenses.

[DoctorP]

Things are different today than compared to even 10 or 20 years ago, did you all know that liberty for US Airmen is currently curtailed do to problems that have occured in the past few weeks here in Okinawa, there is a curfew from 10PM to 5Am for people not being allowed to go off base. In the past that was rarely if ever heard of.

Actually it's 12am to 5am, but glad to see you are aware of it!


Education and training for the troops has increased compared to before, the military are more sensitive to issues regarding the Japanese people than ever before, things are not perfect, and crimes will continue to happen but at least there is more accountability today than in the not too distant past.

Excellent point!



As a sidebar here, there have been crimes committed here in Japan that I wish the US Military would have prosecuted and NOT the Japanese courts, why do I say that, because in many cases the Japanese courts are MORE lienent than the US Military would be. Not too many years ago 3 service members in Okinawa were sent to Japanese prison for statutory rape of a young Japanese girl, they got between 6 to 8 years respectively, I am willing to bet the US Military would have sentenced to to much longer sentences if they had jurisdiction, anyone here think otherwise.
Well that's my 2 cents....
Hindsight is 20/20 people please don't forget that.

Actually this happened in 1995 (so 10+ years ago). I couldn't believe those guys got such light sentences...In my opinion they should have gotten a minimum of 25 years each! I believe Mike has posted sufficient evidence that the sentence would've been much worse had the military tried them, but it would never be a death sentence. (sadly)

[Mike Cash]

I did a google search on UCMJ sentencing guidelines and was surprised to learn that there are none. Nor are there mandatory minimum sentences. Maximum sentences are set by the President in a separate manual on the conduct of courts-martial.

[大きいアメリカ人]

I dont even see why the US keeps soldiers in Japan, its not needed anymore.

[changedonrequest]

I dont even see why the US keeps soldiers in Japan, its not needed anymore.
I think you either have your head in the sand or you choose to only read news that makes you feel happy.

For anyone to make a statement off the cuff like that tells me much that the person making such a statement is either unaware of the state of the world at this time or is a an uneducated child. Which is it?

Actually this happened in 1995 (so 10+ years ago).
That is "not too many years ago" to me:okashii: I guess to some people here that is ancient history, just like what the OP discusses. I've been here so many years that I am begining to lose count.(and my mind as well I think)


I could swear I heard the Commander of Kadena say 10PM to 5AM well either way......I know(as he snaps his fingers) that's the curfew for all teens on Okinawa......sorry about that my mistake.

[大きいアメリカ人]

I think you either have your head in the sand or you choose to only read news that makes you feel happy.
For anyone to make a statement off the cuff like that tells me much that the person making such a statement is either unaware of the state of the world at this time or is a an uneducated child. I dont see why its uneducated, the Japanese dont want the soldiers there, and im sure they dont want to be there either. Many Japanese act racist and hateful towards the nations that keep them out of harms way, even banning them from alot of public facilities. If that isnt a scream out that they dont want them there, I dont know what is.

Sure things are probably different from a political stand point, but I dont play much attention to global matters, however if calling me an uneduated child makes you feel better, by all means continue.
But conister this:

A Japanese tourist can come to America, enjoy it fully, be treated as an equal amoung its people with no limitations.

An American(or other European) tourist who goes to Japan, will frequently be pointed at, whispered at and talked about behind peoples backs, he will also find that many facilities will not allow him without a Japanese escourt, some will not allow him at all.

http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html

[changedonrequest]

I dont see why its uneducated, the Japanese dont want the soldiers there, and im sure they dont want to be there either. Many Japanese act racist and hateful towards the nations that keep them out of harms way, even banning them from alot of public facilities. If that isnt a scream out that they dont want them there, I dont know what is.
Sure things are probably different from a political stand point, but I dont play much attention to global matters, however if calling me an uneduated child makes you feel better, by all means continue.
But conister this:
A Japanese tourist can come to America, enjoy it fully, be treated as an equal amoung its people with no limitations.
An American(or other European) tourist who goes to Japan, will frequently be pointed at, whispered at and talked about behind peoples backs, he will also find that many facilities will not allow him without a Japanese escourt, some will not allow him at all.
http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html
No it doesnt make me feel any better at all. I wrote what I did as a figure of speech.

Your comments are like trying to compare apples and oranges. The points that you are trying to make about people being pointed at and called "gaijin" have nothing at all to do with whether or not US Forces are stationed here or not. That is a totally different topic related to the aura of Japan being an ethonocentric society.
the Japanese dont want the soldiers there,

I don't know if you are aware of this but there are MANY Japanese that would have loved to see Okinawa stay a US Protectorate similar to Guam. Do you know why? I will give you an opportunity to answer that one first.
I have been on both sides of the fence, US Marine and now have absolutely nothing to do with the military, so believe it or not I can see both sides of the issue rather clearly.

Oh btw the link you listed is one example of one "gaijin" who made a choice to take Japanese citizenship and is VERY sensitive to his "rights". While he has done a lot to raise awareness of foreigners rights here in Japan, there are many "gaijin" that find him to be an annoyance, like a cat wailing in the night.

[DoctorP]

I could swear I heard the Commander of Kadena say 10PM to 5AM well either way......I know(as he snaps his fingers) that's the curfew for all teens on Okinawa......sorry about that my mistake.


You are right Hachiro...it is the curfew for teens on Okinawa on weeknights. 10pm to 5am if they live off base. But you were talking about Airmen, their curfew (currently) is 12am to 5am.

[-Rudel-]

I'm not sure if the Navy, Army and Air Force are doing it, but 3 months after I left Okinawa in 2004, the USMC MCB Camp Butler Commanding General, put a cerfew for all Marines on Okinawa.

They use a Red card and a Gold card. Most LCpls and below get the red card. This means that you must be in by 10pm every night. Even Saturdays! If you are a Marine that lives off base, someone from your unit (with a gold card) will come check to make sure you are where you are suppose to be.

The Gold card is mostly given to Cpl and Above with maturity and have proven to earn it. Or by Commander's discretion.(sp) This card allows you to be out all night.

I think the latest crime that was convicted between the Military Police and Japanese Police is a female military personel that robbed money from a Taxi Driver.

Okinawa is a strong hold for the US military forces. By all means a quick way to be in or anywhere around the Pacific Theater. Or better put...Strategicly placed. Camp Lester has moved all their troops to Guam. US gave Camp Lester back to Okinawan Gov't which will house many Japanese families.

You know what this cerfew and moving a troops did? It's bringing some of the nightlife, and day life businesses down. Making many workers go out of jobs.

I recently went back to Okinawa to marry my wife. The club, Manhattans use to be packed as sardeen in a can every Friday and Saturday night. NOW...It was literally just me and my wife. All those memories I had before the cerfew are with me, but the fun is all gone now. The business is even slow too. I don't see how they are keeping the club open.

As for relocating troops, it's making it hard for Japanese Contractors who rely on the military bases. Weather it is making new buildings, vehicle maintenances, security for bases. etc.

The fact that the Okinawans want us there are not, is on both sides. Some want us, some don't. I have a feeling that the Okinawans that want us to leave are winning...Until the ones that don't want us, start doing something about it.

Good Okianwa English website with news etc.
http://www.japanupdate.com/en/

[DoctorP]

I'm not sure if the Navy, Army and Air Force are doing it, but 3 months after I left Okinawa in 2004, the USMC MCB Camp Butler Commanding General, put a cerfew for all Marines on Okinawa.
They use a Red card and a Gold card. Most LCpls and below get the red card. This means that you must be in by 10pm every night. Even Saturdays! If you are a Marine that lives off base, someone from your unit (with a gold card) will come check to make sure you are where you are suppose to be.
The Gold card is mostly given to Cpl and Above with maturity and have proven to earn it. Or by Commander's discretion.(sp) This card allows you to be out all night.


Red cards still mean 12am curfew. As for the Air Force? They enacted their own liberty cards last year. The curfew I am talking about supercedes those cards because there was a rash of incidents about 2 weeks ago that spurred the Commander to enforce stricter limits.


I think the latest crime that was convicted between the Military Police and Japanese Police is a female military personel that robbed money from a Taxi Driver.

Close, but there were a few others since then...but similar incidents.

Camp Lester has moved all their troops to Guam. US gave Camp Lester back to Okinawan Gov't which will house many Japanese families.


This is incorrect. Camp Lester is still alive and well. (for now). Half of the base was given back to the government of Japan, but they did not give it back to the rightful families. Instead the Gov't siezed the land and used it to build a new town hall, and are currently building a bypass on some of the other land. Much of it is still unused, but there are future plans for building on it.

[-Rudel-]

I thought it was all of them. NP.

The Red cards are 12am? Shoot, that sucks still. Can't believe I'm going back next year. I wonder if main land is the same way.

Thanks for the heads up.

[changedonrequest]

This is incorrect. Camp Lester is still alive and well. (for now). Half of the base was given back to the government of Japan, but they did not give it back to the rightful families. Instead the Gov't siezed the land

The land wasn't seized by the government it was returned and the previous owners were over compensated for the property. Japan also has laws regarding eminent domain and they applied in this case, maybe it is semantics but......that area that was used to build the new Chatan Town Office had been scheduled for return for nearly 20 years before it actually occured. ( I have family that owned land there)

The rest of Camp Lester is scheduled for return as soon as the new US Military Hospital is built. Also many of the families that were living on Lester were moved into the new high rises that were built next to Bldg 1 on Foster and the new housing across from Kubasaki HS. The Japanese government will also be building a new middle school to replace the one on Lester.

There are similar examples of cases like this throughout Okinawa, do you remember the Machminato Housing Area? If the individual land owners had taken control and did what they wanted you never would have seen "Shin-to-shin" as it is today. That area was returned over 15 years ago, it just took the government 10 years to clear out all the leftover unexploded muntions and snakes from that area. Eminent domain services a purpose in cases like this.

[changedonrequest]

You know what this cerfew and moving a troops did? It's bringing some of the nightlife, and day life businesses down. Making many workers go out of jobs.

I recently went back to Okinawa to marry my wife. The club, Manhattans use to be packed as sardeen in a can every Friday and Saturday night. NOW...It was literally just me and my wife. All those memories I had before the cerfew are with me, but the fun is all gone now. The business is even slow too. I don't see how they are keeping the club open.


That area has been dying ever since the tear gas bombing at Apple House in the late 80's. The build up in Awase and Mihama in Chatan sign the death knell for the Gate 2 area. That area around Sonda and Moromi were doomed since BC Street was taken over as well. Gate 2 has always catered to and will continue to cater to the US military, many of the businesses that are there are run by Indians and not Okinawans. The clubs have all moved to greener pastures in Mihama. Businesses have a hard time surving now a days catering to the US Military alone, that is a fact of life.

[DoctorP]

The land wasn't seized by the government it was returned and the previous owners were over compensated for the property.

They were not overcompensated. The point is, they were not given an option on whether they wanted the land, or if they wanted to sell it themselves. Each land owner would have made more money selling individual plots.



The rest of Camp Lester is scheduled for return as soon as the new US Military Hospital is built. Also many of the families that were living on Lester were moved into the new high rises that were built next to Bldg 1 on Foster and the new housing across from Kubasaki HS.

Some families may have moved by choice, but none of the housing on Lester is empty. That base still has many years before anything happens with that land.

[/QUOTE]
There are similar examples of cases like this throughout Okinawa, do you remember the Machminato Housing Area? If the individual land owners had taken control and did what they wanted you never would have seen "Shin-to-shin" as it is today. That area was returned over 15 years ago, it just took the government 10 years to clear out all the leftover unexploded muntions and snakes from that area. Eminent domain services a purpose in cases like this.[/QUOTE]

I am aware of it. I think they were foolish to use the land the way that they did. There were many better ways in which to use that land. But then again, this is the same island that chose to install a monorail that runs all of what...5km??? What a waste of money that was/is!

[gaijinalways]

I think it's sad that the Okinawans, who in some sense are still not really considered full Japanese by mainland Japanese, bear the burden of the bases. As to the bases being in Japan, it's political and practical reasons that keep the soldiers here. Japan is still pursueing a 'peaceful nation' policy, and the US as a remaining super power still keeping an eye on the Pacific area. Should America be doing it? Depends on what you think of military diplomacy.

I certainly think most soldiers stationed in Japan behave themselves, and I wonder about the figures that Maciamo posted are questionable.

As a side note; As to remarks about Debito, I don't always agree with his methods, but (and it's a big but) what is the Japanese government doing about discrimination? I'd respond a big fat nothing.

[changedonrequest]

They were not overcompensated. The point is, they were not given an option on whether they wanted the land, or if they wanted to sell it themselves. Each land owner would have made more money selling individual plots.
Actually you are wrong here, do you know why? In the case of the Chatan Town Office and the land from Camp Lester, the landowners, they were over compensated, meaning they were given above market value for the property at THAT time. You are talking about "if's"...I am stating facts. Once again hindsight is 20/20.
Some families may have moved by choice, but none of the housing on Lester is empty. That base still has many years before anything happens with that land.
Many families were moved, also as I stated the base is scheduled for return as soon as the Hospital is built, and yes it is going to take many years, and yes the base will be given back to Chatan Town and yes I am glad you know how to read. Do you have to regurgitate things that people wrote?
. But then again, this is the same island that chose to install a monorail that runs all of what...5km??? What a waste of money that !
This statment clearly shows your being misinformed or ignorance about the island of Okinawa and the politics behind it.

First the Okinawa Monorail (YuiRail) runs nearly 13km from NahaAirport to Shuri Castle. It runs through some of the most heavily congested traffic areas on the entire island of Okinawa. From station to station it takes about 25 to 30 minutes to travel the entire length, yet by car the same distance and route travelled could take as much as 70 minutes or more.

Next are you aware that the monorail was part of the continuing public works projects that the government is working on. No I bet you didn't, Also do you know that the mono has planned extensions to Onna son and possibly Ryukyu University Hospital, No, I bet you didn't. Next are aware how much time and planning not to mention cost went into the first stage of the monorail? No, I bet you don't.

Are you aware that partially due to the monorail and it's prime location numerous hotels and capsule hotels have been built to help accomodate the over 4MILLION tourists that come to Okinawa yearly? No, I bet you didn't.

I asked this before and now I will ask this again do you know what "EMINENT DOMAIN" means?

Next back to Camp Lester, like I wrote before again I have to repeat myself. I have family that had land at Lester. THEY were OVER COMPENSATED for the land, there is NO way an individual would have gotten the price for the land that government paid. Do you know where the old Town Office was and the problems that they had there? Did you know that the land that was returned was nearly unihabitable, and individual would NEVER have had the resources to develop that land on it's own because of the hilly terrrain that it was. This is ONE area of land that was returned, others are coming. If you leave it all to the individual NOTHING of any value would occur. Why do you think the roads on Okinawa are all twisty and curvey and had dead ends in unthinkable places? That's because individuals built their houses where ever they wanted and the roads came later. Look at the landfill projects and the return of the Machiminato Area, at LEAST the goernment laid out roads and desginated areas for commercial or residential development.

I get the feeling that you consider your self an Okinawa-nophile am I right?

[DoctorP]

Many families were moved, also as I stated the base is scheduled for return as soon as the Hospital is built, and yes it is going to take many years, and yes the base will be given back to Chatan Town and yes I am glad you know how to read. Do you have to regurgitate things that people wrote?
This statment clearly shows your being misinformed or ignorance about the island of Okinawa and the politics behind it.
Once again, I repeat myself! Housing is still full on Camp Lester. People will not be moving out of there for many more years. If you are referring to the old section of Lester that has already been returned, then say so. The current base of Camp Lester, no housing has been vacated. The hospital is still in the planning stages. Ground breaking will not start for many more years. Lester will however be returned to the locals before Futenma ever is!

First the Okinawa Monorail (YuiRail) runs nearly 13km from NahaAirport to Shuri Castle. It runs through some of the most heavily congested traffic areas on the entire island of Okinawa. From station to station it takes about 25 to 30 minutes to travel the entire length, yet by car the same distance and route travelled could take as much as 70 minutes or more.
Next are you aware that the monorail was part of the continuing public works projects that the government is working on. No I bet you didn't, Also do you know that the mono has planned extensions to Onna son and possibly Ryukyu University Hospital, No, I bet you didn't. Next are aware how much time and planning not to mention cost went into the first stage of the monorail? No, I bet you don't.
Are you aware that partially due to the monorail and it's prime location numerous hotels and capsule hotels have been built to help accomodate the over 4MILLION tourists that come to Okinawa yearly?
I am aware of the tourist that come here, many from Taiwan. I still believe that the planning of the monorail went faulty. I misspoke on the length oviously, but it still serves a very small number of the community. Until they make the needed additions, it will continue to stuggle to make enough money to support itself.

Next back to Camp Lester, like I wrote before again I have to repeat myself. I have family that had land at Lester. THEY were OVER COMPENSATED for the land, there is NO way an individual would have gotten the price for the land that government paid. Do you know where the old Town Office was and the problems that they had there? Did you know that the land that was returned was nearly unihabitable, and individual would NEVER have had the resources to develop that land on it's own because of the hilly terrrain that it was. This is ONE area of land that was returned, others are coming. If you leave it all to the individual NOTHING of any value would occur. Why do you think the roads on Okinawa are all twisty and curvey and had dead ends in unthinkable places? That's because individuals built their houses where ever they wanted and the roads came later. Look at the landfill projects and the return of the Machiminato Area, at LEAST the goernment laid out roads and desginated areas for commercial or residential development.
I disagree still about the pricing on the land. Some owners had very small plots, and perhaps could not use them for much, but some (such as my friends family) had a very large section of land, and did not like it when the gov't told them they had to sell.
I will agree, however, that at the least the Gov't laid out a plan, but the decisions on what was allowed to build up there were not well thought out. A large sports store and a strip mall is not what the area needed. While the constuction allowed for a few short term jobs...the gov't continues to do nothing to help bring in suitable jobs for the long haul for its' citizens.

I get the feeling that you consider your self an Okinawa-nophile am I right?
No, I really do not...there are still a lot of things that I do not know enough to speak about, but this is not one of them. Because of the nature of my work I have an abundance of knowledge on this subject. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

U.S. Forces Kadena base.
Night going-out restriction.
It is canceled.
(current events communication)
2006 February 9
21:1 update
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060209-00000176-jij-soci

[DoctorP]

Nevermind...you beat me to it!

[jp22]

it is probably true that 100,000 crimes have been done by Americans..
as millions were done by the Japanese against the Chinese before
and during WW2

Americans want the military out of Japan... since the current illegal
regime in the US is stealing money from the poor to maintain its
illegal empire

[jp22]

JO: Japanese think Pearl Harbor is a Minimoto invention

[-Rudel-]

Edit out........Nevermind. Gold card and Red card are still implemented by Marines. I think those restrictions were established for all service members just for the US Aircraft that went down. No one was allowed to go near it. Now the restrictions are uplifted, but cerfews are still around. :angryfire

[changedonrequest]

it is probably true that 100,000 crimes have been done by Americans..
as millions were done by the Japanese against the Chinese before
and during WW2
Americans want the military out of Japan... since the current illegal
regime in the US is stealing money from the poor to maintain its
illegal empire
You know at least CC1 and I were able to agree to disagree.. I respect him for his point of view, I look forward to meeting him someday.....yet as I try to respect everyones ideas and opinions I have a lot of difficulty in understanding where you are coming from with this kind of statement. Would you care to expound on this and explain where you are coming from, please?

Throughout history numerous peoples and numerous regimes were guilty of "crimes against humanity", what is your point?

Oh one more thing just who is the US stealing from?

[zeroyon]

The good thing is that the military presense has slowly been diminishing. I deal with my the US government with certain aspects of my work in Japan and I will tell you sometimes it can be really annoying and I keep thinking that I am not one of those countless idiots.
Also, I wish I still had the paper from my city hall a while back but had some stats in it.
80% of the crime caused in Japan was my foreigners and 50% of that number(or 40% of the 100) was by US military forces. That's a huge number and people begin to wonder why the good foreigners of Japan have such a hard time....now, I'm too angry to speak for the moment...

WOW... some people need to WAKE UP in this thread. I know that 100,000 crimes is A LOT and nothing to push aside, but it is HARDLY 80% of the total crime rate, and FAR below it.

The total crimes in Japan were 11,857,203 from 1952 to 1979. The total crimes commitied by US forces during that same amount of time was 100,000. If you do the math, that means that 0.84% of the total crimes committed in Japan were by US forces from 1952-1979. Maybe you moved the decimal place 2 places too far to the right?

Data is from http://www.stat.go.jp/data/chouki/zuhyou/28-01.xls , the Statistics Bureau of Japan. The numbers I added up are under the "General Offences under penal code", which includes homicide, rape, arson, robbery, bodily injury, etc, but does not include traffic accidents, etc. This number is the most likely number that the 100,000 is taken from since all of the 11,857,203 total crimes are "crimes".

Americans also have the lowest crime rate per person out of any nationality in Japan (including the Japanese themselves), as shown here ->http://www.jref.com/society/foreign_crime_in_japan.shtml

Even today, 98.2% of all crimes in Japan are commited by Japanese people.

[suirai]

it is probably true that 100,000 crimes have been done by Americans..
as millions were done by the Japanese against the Chinese before
and during WW2
Americans want the military out of Japan... since the current illegal
regime in the US is stealing money from the poor to maintain its
illegal empire

I don't think I can be as diplomatic as Hachiro about this post. But I will keep my cool and just say that somebody here ain't runnin` on all four cylinders. In fact, maybe just one out of four.

Sad to see such writing.

.

[suirai]

... and I keep thinking that I am not one of those countless idiots.

I'm a bit confused. Who are you referring to as "idiots"?

And how do you know they are "idiots"? I mean, do you know these people you are calling "idiots"? Or is that just a blanket charge against some of your fellow human beings?

[godppgo]

it is probably true that 100,000 crimes have been done by Americans..
as millions were done by the Japanese against the Chinese before
and during WW2
Americans want the military out of Japan... since the current illegal
regime in the US is stealing money from the poor to maintain its
illegal empire


Would you care to elaborate on what you mean by current illegal regime in the US?

[Han Chan]

If US soldiers, who have commited crimes such as rape and murder, were handed over to be tried in the Japanese courts, istead of beeing protected in the Army Bases, some of the anger would be be defused. The present standard practice makes the japanese feel like they are still a occupied country.

If US cared about what other people think of them, they would at least let their criminals "face the music".

[gaijinalways]

I'd like to see the US troops go, but I wonder what will happen when the troops leave Japan. Somehow Okinawa might not be ready for that much land, unless they start relocating people from Tokyo, then I'm all for it:cool: !

But, do you really think the SDF is ready to defend Japan?

[ippolito]

In all the war there are bad guys and good soldiers depends of the percentage.....in the war soldiers forget many things...
Jp soldiers have done a lot of damages to chinese and korean people
as germans but also us, do not forget Hiroshima....in few seconds
1000s of civilian deasappered....and for many years came out monster babies....
In Italy us soldiers won against hitler.....and after the war the only reason
that Tito and Moscow entourage did not came in Italy (where the reds are many) only for the Nato protection....
and probaly Japan could be an good meal for China do Mao as S.Korea..
unfortanly in these moment there are 3 big forces Us an western countries Islam and China....
It seems we are all could be involved in a war total war as Islam with
Iran is getting stronger....and we have milions of islamic in Europe that could potentially get guns e create civil wars inside the eu countries.
I really hope that I am wrong....and that us does not attack iran as iran
would not use atomic bombs agaist israel....
All the nations involved in wars have something to mask of the past
I do not believe that someone has done a "clean" war
am I wrong?

[Sukotto]

Ginowan city


besides the crimes there are also accidents such as the Aug 13, 2004 helicopter crash into Okinawan International University.

--

The US air base at Ginowan city should be left.
In 1996 the US & Japanese governments promised that within
seven years the air base at the center of the city would be removed.

7 years have passed and still the base remains.

There has been a proposal to build an off shore air base smack in the
middle of a coral reef.
Such a base would take another 14 years to complete.
The people of Okinawa do not want this either.

Another proposal is to move the air base to another base - Kadena.
But this too is in the middle of an urban area.

70% of Okinawans want the base relocated outside of Japan.
80% want it to be NOT built any where in Okinawa.

Recently 23,000 Okinawans formed a human chain around the base at
Ginowan city after the Aug 13, 2004 helicopter crash onto the campus of Okinawa International University.

They did this in protest of its continued presence and the failure of the
US and Japanese governments to fulfill their promises to remove the base
within the 7 year deadline.



**
the day of the helicopter crash, after Okinawans put out the fire and
rescued the 3 US service men, the US forces took over the area and didn't
allow any one through. Not media personal, not univesity personal to return
to the school. Despite the area NOT being a part of ANY US military base.

Are you sure Okinawa is still not occupied?

see
http://www.jpri.org/
for info on a 25 minute dvd made by the people of Okinawa.

[Sukotto]

An article on the Status of Forces Agreement and Okinawa
Chalmers Johnson writes that

In Asia, the SOFA is a modern legacy of the nineteenth-century imperialist practice in China of “extraterritoriality”—the “right” of a foreigner charged with a crime to be turned over for trial to his own diplomatic representatives in accordance with his national law, not to a Chinese court in accordance with Chinese law. Extracted from the Chinese at gun point, the practice arose because foreigners claimed that Chinese law was barbaric and “white men” engaged in commerce in China should not be forced to submit to it.

http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17195



It is a shame that first so many crimes take place, especially by guests,
and that/if personal are not tried in local courts.
Are tourists or immigrants in the US allowed to not be tried under US law
and instead under their home country's laws?


Again,
at the very least the air base at Ginowan city should
be closed. It was promised to the people of Okinawa.

[DoctorP]

at the very least the air base at Ginowan city should
be closed. It was promised to the people of Okinawa.


The base will be closed...but part of that agreement to close the base was to find a suitable place to relocate the base. That is so often conveniently forgotten when this subject arises!

As for the SOFA and military personell being turned over to authorities? It happens once sufficient proof has been given that the individual is indeed THE guilty party...and not merely suspected of guilt. This is to protect someone from wrongful prosecution. We all know what the Japanese police interrogation system is like. A trial started this week in Yokosuka for a sailor charged with a crime there. The US took him into custody, but released him to Japan within a week, once it was certain that he was indeed the one who committed the crime.

[Sukotto]

The base will be closed...but part of that agreement to close the base was to find a suitable place to relocate the base. That is so often conveniently forgotten when this subject arises!

It didn't seem that way according to the Okinawans in their dvd.
It seemed that after the rape of a school girl by the US 3 soldiers
back in '95, what was then the proverbial straw that broke the camel's
back for the Okinawans - not a one time "unfortunate" thing - that
it was then that the US & Japanese governments promised the return
of the land with Ginowan city within 7 years.




As for the SOFA and military personell being turned over to authorities? It happens once sufficient proof has been given that the individual is indeed THE guilty party...and not merely suspected of guilt. This is to protect someone from wrongful prosecution. We all know what the Japanese police interrogation system is like. A trial started this week in Yokosuka for a sailor charged with a crime there. The US took him into custody, but released him to Japan within a week, once it was certain that he was indeed the one who committed the crime.



Unless I'm mistaken, and I very well could be, I assume that Japan
has signed all the relevant international treaties with regards to the rights
of 1) human rights (including innocent until proven guilty); 2) prisoner's rights; 3) and treaties against torture.

Or is it perhaps that, like the perception of Chinese law way back then, Japanese law is barbaric and 努hite men� engaged in Japan should not be forced to submit to it?

[changedonrequest]

It didn't seem that way according to the Okinawans in their dvd.
It seemed that after the rape of a school girl by the US 3 soldiers
back in '95, what was then the proverbial straw that broke the camel's
back for the Okinawans - not a one time "unfortunate" thing - that
it was then that the US & Japanese governments promised the return
of the land with Ginowan city within 7 years.
Unless I'm mistaken, and I very well could be, I assume that Japan
has signed all the relevant international treaties with regards to the rights
of 1) human rights (including innocent until proven guilty); 2) prisoner's rights; 3) and treaties against torture.
Or is it perhaps that, like the perception of Chinese law way back then, Japanese law is barbaric and 努hite men・engaged in Japan should not be forced to submit to it?

Firstly the MCAS Futenma will be returned as soon as an alternative location is found for relocation of the base and it's assests. CC1 is correct there.

He is also correct in what he wrote about the handover of US military personel suspected of crimes off the military bases. Just because Japan has signed on to treaties regarding human rights does not mean that their laws are the same as in the states. Japanese police can incarcerate a person for up to 30 days with out charging them of any crime. This link is to arrest procedures in Japan.
http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7110b.html

The criminal justice system in Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan

The US Military's refusal to hand over a "suspect", key word there, is to garuntee the rights of a US citizen until evidence is produced to the satisfaction of the US military that the person in question in any suspected crime is actually a "suspect" or not. The Japanese police can and do detain people and then look for or gather evidence that the detainee is or could be a suspect in a crime.

In other words a person could be detained and then evidence found related to the crime to charge them. Big difference there.

[DoctorP]

Thanks Hachiro for saving me the time of typing all of that again!

[changedonrequest]

Thanks Hachiro for saving me the time of typing all of that again!

No problem, hope you have a good weekend...I am going to have to stay aware a bit more about people posting on this thread. I apologize, I get the feeling that you and I are the only ones posting here that "actually" live here in Okinawa. I may be wrong but......

I am also getting the feeling that a lot of people have many misconceptions about the "who, what, where, when's and why's" about the US Military and it's presence here in Japan.

[Sukotto]

The US Military's refusal to hand over a "suspect", key word there, is to garuntee the rights of a US citizen until evidence is produced to the satisfaction of the US military that the person in question in any suspected crime is actually a "suspect" or not. The Japanese police can and do detain people and then look for or gather evidence that the detainee is or could be a suspect in a crime.
In other words a person could be detained and then evidence found related to the crime to charge them. Big difference there.



So Japan's way of doing things is uncivilized?



As for the situation in Okinawa,
listening, or trying to listen to the Okinawans first
instead of last or not at all (which seems Washington and Tokyo
have done for 60+ years), perhaps pretending to listen,
sounds like a logical first step in change of the 'status quo'
that Okinawans have suffered from even the battle of Okinawa
no thanks to Tokyo.


None the less thanks for the links.
I will look into them when I get time.

[changedonrequest]

So Japan's way of doing things is uncivilized?
What would prompt you to ask that? Just because they have a different way of handling and processing suspects doesnt make them uncivilized now does it?
As for the situation in Okinawa,
listening, or trying to listen to the Okinawans first
instead of last or not at all (which seems Washington and Tokyo
have done for 60+ years), perhaps pretending to listen,
sounds like a logical first step in change of the 'status quo'
that Okinawans have suffered from even the battle of Okinawa
no thanks to Tokyo.

True, listening however does not necessarily mean that any action will come out of it. Try thinking of it this way, lets say the Japanese government is interested in making a trade agreement with the USA, they are not going to talk or negotiate with the governor's of the states that they are doing business with, it will be with the national government.

Okinawa is the same thing, there are national security issues that are very real here in Asia that both the USA and Japan benefit from having a forward deployed presence of the US military. The US has agreed to lessen the burden on the Okinawa people, but things take time.

We are living in an age of "instants" and this issue is not one that can be dealt with in an "instant".

The US is not just pretending to listen, but even to the US representative to the talks regarding the Okinawa base issues said recently that the issue of the bases in Okinawa is a very small and relatively insignificant problem in the overall scheme of things.

Side note here....you know from much of what I have seen regarding the US military here in Okinawa the people that seem to do the most complaining about the issues dont even come from here. Of course the Okinawan's join in particularly when there is an incident, but generally speaking the Okinawan's are pretty cool about the whole thing.

[Sukotto]

What would prompt you to ask that? Just because they have a different way of handling and processing suspects doesnt make them uncivilized now does it?


Well, you posted links to the process of getting
arrested in Japan why? because you thought it somewhat ridiculous
for suspects (US guests) to go immediately into Japanese custody.
Why? because their way of doing things was ridiculous?
barbaric? Definately some degree of cultural superiority going on
that is not entirely to blamed on you.
I'm not saying their way of doing things is right.
Just the idea that
our way as being superior and not adhering to their way while
we are guests is not right.

If people don't like it, a) don't commit crimes; b) leave (in the short
term stay on base)


China such a threat. Why would Japan or the US bomb a major
manufacturing base of theirs. This would hurt their economies too much.
N Korea. South Korea (the only other country that actually matters
in their civil war) has been renewing family ties with them. The Sunshine
Policy...
Forward deployment?
For what?
Preventing countries from existing out from under the global economic system?
A number of middle eastern countries that produce oil had the nerve
to consider conducting their trade of petro for Euros instead of dollars.
This would not be good for the US economy.
But, those middle eastern countries did most of their trade with
Europe, so can you blaim them?
Whose the enemy?
Anybody who doesn't like robber barrons and their P.R. industry.

[changedonrequest]

Well, you posted links to the process of getting arrested in Japan why? because you thought it somewhat ridiculous for suspects (US guests) to go immediately into Japanese custody. Why? because their way of doing things was ridiculous? barbaric? Definately some degree of cultural superiority going on that is not entirely to blamed on you. I'm not saying their way of doing things is right. Just the idea that our way as being superior and not adhering to their way while we are guests is not right.

I posted the links to show people that are uninformed about the system here what a suspect goes through when arrested by the Japanese police. Please don't twist what I am saying to fit how you are or maybe thinking. Your choice of words is interesting. I am not going to take the "bait" ok.

China such a threat. Why would Japan or the US bomb a major
manufacturing base of theirs. This would hurt their economies too much.
N Korea. South Korea (the only other country that actually matters
in their civil war) has been renewing family ties with them. The Sunshine
Policy...Forward deployment? For what? Preventing countries from existing out from under the global economic system?

A number of middle eastern countries that produce oil had the nerve
to consider conducting their trade of petro for Euros instead of dollars.
This would not be good for the US economy. But, those middle eastern countries did most of their trade with Europe, so can you blaim them?
Whose the enemy? Anybody who doesn't like robber barrons and their P.R. industry.

Before I fall out of my chair laughing here please explain to me what your view of this part of Asia is, or should I say isn't? Are you looking to pick a fight or start a flame war with your commentary?

[DoctorP]

Hachiro....please note that Scott pops in only every few months or so and posts in the exact same forums each time. He(she) is totally unable to have an intelligent debate about the subject with you.

[changedonrequest]

Thank you, I will remember that.

[Sukotto]

It's a matter of adhering to our hosts laws or pretending we are better.
Nothing more. In retrospect I should have phrased the whole thing differently. It's not you or other individual soldiers that are to blame
for the US government's arrogance - regardless of whom is in office.

The description of Japan law according to the the US embassy website
you posted did not seem to be barbaric at all. But that is not what
is that part of the debate is about. It is about adhering our hosts
laws while we are guests in other people's countries. In this case
Japan. Saying we shouldn't have to, to be encoded in a SOFA law
is, as Chalmers Johnson says, a throw back to 兎xtraterritoriality�
of the colonial/imperialist era.


Before I fall out of my chair laughing here please explain to me what your view of this part of Asia is, or should I say isn't? Are you looking to pick a fight or start a flame war with your commentary?



I must appologize, and running into too many jingoists on other forums
in the limited online time a non-computer owner has should not be an excuse.
I don't really want to get into a flame war. I do not like them either.
They are a waste of time and energy.

But, do I think China or North Korea has any intention of invading their neighbors? No I do not. I fail to see what either one would have to gain
by such. Both have unresolved civil wars. True. (keep in mind US policy is still that of a 'one China policy') South Koreans in polls in recent years have
said the US was the greatest threat to world peace. Not NKorea or anyone else. It seems SKoreans would be unlikely to support any renewal of war.


People don't like to be occupied.
Why do US forces need to be in Japan?
That is the 'not trying to be humorous' question I am asking.


vandalism on a bar bathroom wall:
fighting for peace is like !@#$ing for virginity




Masahide Ota the former governor
of Okinawa seems like one person at least that would have represented
more than an outside voice on the matter of bases.

[changedonrequest]

Sukotto have you ever actually been to Okinawa?

Masahide Ota the former governor
of Okinawa seems like one person at least that would have represented
more than an outside voice on the matter of bases.

What link did you copy and paste this statement from?

People don't like to be occupied.
Why do US forces need to be in Japan?
That is the 'not trying to be humorous' question I am asking.


There is another thread here about this topic, I'm sure you can find it.

[Sukotto]

"Okinawa: Cold War Island" is at least one book I've read on the topic.
Its chapters are written by various people from their varying backgrounds.

Masahide Ota, the former Mayor, wrote at least one chapter in that book.

According to stats in one of the chapters the amount of crimes
committed by US troops since they got there equals to roughly one
every other day.

Under the string headed
"Is it time for US Force to leave Japan?"
I posted two responses from two of the authors I emailed with
regards to whether or not Okinawans actually mind US troops there,
as well as a link to a site that archives a newsletter titled "The Ryukyuan".

Again, I do not wish to start a tic for tat flame war.



Here I will post the response from a 3rd author:


Thanks for reading the "Okinawa" book. It is edited by one
of the most distinguished political scientists of the United
States. I consider it a great honor to have had the
opportunity to participate in it.

Your interest in Okinawa is appreciated. Okinawa is a
small place with many people. The people-land ratio indicates
that people are land hungry. Any square inch of land is
treasure to add to one's asset under the circumstance.

The U.S. military occupies 20% or so of Okinawa Island,
plus vast air and water areas around it. The U.S. military
and Okinawa people compete for scarce land. This land is of
course the natural endowment for use by Okinawa people, they
think. Why should the U.S. military keep occupying so much of
their land and crowd them out out?

That is the basic question. The U.S. military has failed
to give a convincing answer to that question. So have the
governments of the U.S. and Japan. In effect, they have
appropriated so much of Okiinawa people's land by sheer force
without explanation or apology.

In this context, conflict around a scarce resource
develops as expected under similar conditions anywhere.

People have to make a living. They cannot afford to
complain about their deprivation all the time. But grievances
are always in their hearts. These erupt from time to time.

The bed rock of these grievances is undeniable. Public
opinion polls show that a great majority of Okinawa people
want the U.S. military to vacate the land they are occupying
as soon as possible.

Who can be "cool" about the whole thing? If "cool"
means "steady calmness and self control" as said in the
dictionary, it is remarkable that Okinawa people keep the
cool most of the time despite all the negative metrics that
show how much they suffer from the presence of the U.S.
military sitting on large chunks of their land.

Maybe those Okinawa people are all saints. They do not
show anger or resentment visibly. One has to spend time with
them before they open up for honest serious dialogue.
Especially, U.S. persons must be careful in asking them
questions on how they feel about U.S. bases in their midst.

That is how things are in Okinawa. It takes considerable
effort on the part of fortunate and powerful outsiders to
understand how a people lacking luck and power to match
relates to them.

Have I helped you at all? I hope at least a little.
Thank you again for your interest in Okinawa. I hope you
will come around to the Okinawa people's side and see the
basic injustice of power perpetuated on them.

[Uchite]

But, do I think China or North Korea has any intention of invading their neighbors? No I do not. I fail to see what either one would have to gain by such.
Why do you think the Japanese government is so concerned about nuclear tests and missiles being tested?

[Buckethead]

So - Why are the US still in Japan?

[Uchite]

So - Why are the US still in Japan?

Evidentally, the Japanese government still wants the U.S. there.

[Sukotto]

Why do you think the Japanese government is so concerned about nuclear tests and missiles being tested?


Why would N Korea want to build missiles and/or nukes?

[Uchite]

Why would N Korea want to build missiles and/or nukes?
Because they would like to take over Asia. Don't you remember the Korean War?

[Uchite]

Double post. Sorry.

[Sukotto]

Because they would like to take over Asia. Don't you remember the Korean War?



I didn't know the Korean civil War was about taking over Asia?

[Yank]

From what I have seen. It's mostly the black military personel. Blacks commit 90% of the violent crimes in U.S.A. It's no surprise that they would do in Japan what they do in the United States. Twice as many blacks are dishonorably discharged from the U.S. military than whites. They seem to think that them and Asians should get along just because they are both non-white. But get annoyed when Japanese treat them like they treat every other visitor to Japan. Just look up 100 Black Facts and 1 white lie. You'll see. How about those black Marines that did those rapes and robberies in Okinawa. One stomping in that poor middle aged Japanese woman's stomach until she died. He stole her purse. He said he did it because of the way she recoiled from him stepping out of the shadows asking her a question. Oh yeah! What sort of reaction should she have? When this 6' 5" animal of a group known to commit crimes in the area, surprises her?
It was at night time. If you don't believe me I challenge anyone to look up the facts themselves.

[indian_sukhoi]

over 100.000 crimes involving off-duty personnel and Japanese citizens took place from 1952 through the 1970's. The majority were incidents of assaults, including rape and murder. Some 500 Japanese were killed

What the Hell. i Never thought like this and never heard before

[CBT1979]

Most G.I.s would like to go home, being in the US with their families and friends. But the US government thinks and feels different. They think that Japan is a useful pawn to expand the pacific fleets power projection. They allow the JSDF access to advanced weapon systems but not the intercontinental striking capability etc. The Pentagon often acted like that with their "allies". If you are useful, they will support you no matter what. But if you are no more use and become an obstacle to them, you might find yourself on their list "axis of evil" in the worst case.
In terms of naval forces, Japan already has the biggest and most advanced fleet in Asia. Runner-Up are China and India.

[chibichibi005]

Living here in Yokosuka and having been near the Honch and out in the Honch myself, I have to say that drinking is a major factor of why sailors here get in trouble and there are SEVERAL sailors in the Japanese prisons because of their stupidity and lack of control. Most are in prison for extreme lapses in judgment, mostly due to drinking (or that has been the main ingredient in the past four major problems resulting in US citizens in Japanese prisons). I have been at Lawson's and some drunk sailors with girlfriends come in, start screaming and acting like idiots over the karaage being fresh or not, getting angry with the clerks because they don't speak English...it's really embarrassing!! I hate how these people make Americans look as a whole. I think it's a combination of ignorance, not being socially responsible, drinking and poor judgment.

I would like to know where these "numbers" came from. A valid source?

[Sukotto]

Why do you think the Japanese government is so concerned about nuclear tests and missiles being tested?

nukes and missiles couldn't be for self-defense against far superior forces of the US, SKorea, or Japan, each on their own, the first in this list actually attacking a sovereign nation as an act in flagrant violation of international law because they did not have wmd's.


For domestic politics?
A boogie man is a tried and true technique to distract populations from domestic problems. The US government uses it all the time. And they're not the only ones. Witness Iran's prez whipping up hatred against expansionist Israel that gets translated into the western press as "wipe Israel off the map" even though those exact words he never spoke. Unless you can find the translation of the exact speech? It's always "their" fault. Gotta have a scape goat to refocus anger to somewhere.

[Mrjones]

there migh that amount of crimes in one day if you are strict enough.

[Habu31]

I do agree that a good portion of crimes all around the world are related to drugs or alcohol. And there has been some discredible things done by soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen and other foreigners in Japan. The statictics are garbage though. When I read the paper or watch the news and I hear about japanese and american/foreign people committing crimes. More the japanese. Everyone is led to believe that the majority of the crimes are committed by foreigners. I tell ya, When i got a parking ticket and went to pay it, man was that place full of japanese people. Also paying fines. Where did all those statistics go? They are out there. But you won't here japanese people talking about it much. Especially to americans or foreigners.

I wish people would just stop pointing fingers and just fix the problem. If the problem lies in one person, that person should be punished for their actions. As a world society, we are quick to make an opinion of a group due to one persons' actions. Especially when the majority of the US military a in japan are there to do their jobs with pride and honor, feed their families, and represent their country well. When their jobs are to put their lives on the line to protect the intresets of japan and other places in the world simultaneously. Man, that would suck if some idiot creating statistics somewhere lumped my parking ticket with a murderer or rapist. But is so, oh well. I know I have no control over misinformation.

[Anohito]

Living here in Yokosuka and having been near the Honch and out in the Honch myself, I have to say that drinking is a major factor of why sailors here get in trouble and there are SEVERAL sailors in the Japanese prisons because of their stupidity and lack of control. ...

I'm going to quote something relevant to this discussion from the Japan Today forum that was posted about a year ago.

"I'm going to have to interject here. Despite your (and a few others’) assertions here, your reputation isn't as unsullied as you'd like to think. The citizens of Yokosuka and surrounding areas OFTEN have direct "interaction" with the fine sailors stationed here but the sailors don't realize it (and don't care anyway).
Get on any early morning southbound train on the Keikyu-sen and witness any number of drunk sailors passed out on the train. Sometimes this scene includes complimentary vomit and/or urine on the floor. Fine ambassadors indeed.
In fact, get on any train going north or south in the evening and odds are in your favor that there will be at least a few loud obnoxious sailors (sometimes even sober ones) making asses of themselves (worse than the worst J-high school punks by far).
After "knocking off", head down to Shioiri station and witness the “interaction” that goes on there. By "interaction" of course I'm talking about the sailors (anywhere from two to fifteen or so) sitting around drinking from paper bags. There are normally also homeless people chillin' with them, too – it's a fine mix. Public consumption of alcohol outdoors while off base is prohibited by Fleet Activities Yokosuka, by the way. Another example of great discipline.
Walk down Dobuita street (or any others in the area, for that matter) on any given evening and witness these fine young men stumble around and fight each other (although I'll admit that shore patrol's been pretty thick the last few weeks).
I could go on with more but there's no need to - you all are aware of what great ambassadors sailors often are . . . unless you're one of the fine men I'm referring to, of course.
I'm not trying to label you all as bums and criminals but the idea that these few "bad apples" (that were caught) are the only problem sailors you’ve got over here is simply ludicrous. The Navy needs to clean up its act. Now."

I thought it was bad when I was stationed at Yokosuka, but the situation seems to have become even worse since that time.

[thistle]

Interesting thread, with some interesting discussions, I enjoyed reading it,
but where are all the members now? Seems quite a few of them were banned....
Guess that's why things have been a little dull around here lately:souka: :(

[TOKYO64]

When I was stationed in Okinawa I saw so much disrespect to the locals. I was ashamed to be part of that at first but then I realized later that it really is an individual thing. But America needs to wake up and smell the coffee not the oil as is the case in Iraq. There we are behaving the same way we have been for years. We need to wake up and get out of Japan. Japan should be a neutra country anyway and in many ways the policy in Japan is dictated by what America says or does. And would you want a bunch of foreign soldiers or sailors or whatever walking around your home town urinating in your favorite garden or park? Americans out of Japan now!

[KirinMan]

When I was stationed in Okinawa I saw so much disrespect to the locals. I was ashamed to be part of that at first but then I realized later that it really is an individual thing. But America needs to wake up and smell the coffee not the oil as is the case in Iraq. There we are behaving the same way we have been for years. We need to wake up and get out of Japan. Japan should be a neutra country anyway and in many ways the policy in Japan is dictated by what America says or does. And would you want a bunch of foreign soldiers or sailors or whatever walking around your home town urinating in your favorite garden or park? Americans out of Japan now!

How many years ago was that? You must be refering to the time around the Viet Nam War, because the situation has changed dramatically here in Okinawa. Sure there is some disrespect by a few, but the overwhelming majority are very polite and work hard to show respect to their hosts.

Oh and with regards to the urinating, I don't particularly like the Japanese people that take a leek on the wall around my house either. When in Rome.....!

[GodEmperorLeto]

The problem is twofold:
First, the American military does not have a long and rigorous tradition of intelligence. Secondly, American soldiers are permitted to get away with this sort of thing by their officers. The courts martial have a tendency not to throw the book at these guys. Now, I must also point out this (http://www.jref.com/forum/showthread.php?p=430769#post430769) thread. Japanese men being able to rape 外人　（gaijin) women is quite unjust. I have no problem with a people being judged by their own laws. However, that judgement must be just. I wouldn't want to see an American stoned in Saudi Arabia for breaking a law that would warrant a minor fine here. But there needs to be justice done, nevertheless.

[KirinMan]

I have no problem with a people being judged by their own laws. However, that judgement must be just. I wouldn't want to see an American stoned in Saudi Arabia for breaking a law that would warrant a minor fine here. But there needs to be justice done, nevertheless.
__________________

For arguments sake here only and not to start a "war" I would like to ask you a few questions and make a comment or two as well ok?

I understand your point but where do you draw the line? I mean let's say a servicemember was found to have raped a child in Saudi, would you think that stoning them would be unjust?

I for one wouldn't but then again I have kids and probably wouldn't be thinking straight if someone did that to mine.

Are you aware that there are times that Japanese law is much much much more lenient than the UCMJ? For example when the three US servicmen here in Okinawa where tried and convited in the Japanese court for rape of a 12 year old girl here a few years back, they received sentences from 7 to 8 years in prison. The UCMJ would have put them away from probably somewhere between 15 to 30 for the same offense.

I forget where I read this and please don't quote me on it but I think you will get my point. In Europe I think it was around 2 or 300 hundred years ago people were hung for any number of petty offenses, and the Queen decided that it was time to show more fairness and eased the laws. Long story short; I am pretty sure you know where this is going, but crime exploded, purely because people "knew" what the consequences were going to be for their actions.

I do not disagree with the Islamic Code of law when it comes to their laws about theft, murder, rape etc. They in thereselves are great deterents to crime.

Did you have problems with the American that got whipped in Singapore(?) for some minor offense? I am American as well, yet I dont think that it's justice system actually prevents anyone from doing anything wrong, in some cases I think it is quite the opposite.

At least if you do something wrong "there" you know damn well ahead of time that something is going to come off. Sounds like a great deterent to me. I dont think Saudi has over 1,000,000 people in it's prisons either, nor Japan either.

[Sukotto]

in response to deterants in general,
I think the US has around 2 million, in prisons and jails.

The amount of crime and people in prisons/jails,
I think one has to take into account the social and historical conditions
of a particular country, rather than just say country X has strong deterants, say stoning, and they have low crime.

30 years ago the US had like 2-400,000 people in jails and prisons.
Now around 2 million. -according to Angela Davis in her short book
"Are Prisons Obsolete? The most jailingest country on the planet.
This is mostly do to the war on drugs, which despite rhetoric targets
the casual user/small time seller, rather than those that bring/allow
drugs into the country.

Does anybody know if those 3 US military guys had to serve their time
in a Japanese prison? Having to serve in a foreign country's prison might
actually serve as a deterant, unless they think they've covered all the bases and can get away with it. But if they are drunk out of their minds, they probably aren't doing that much thinking.


But again, social conditions.
quoting GodEmperorLeto:
[Quote/]First, the American military does not have a long and rigorous tradition of intelligence. Secondly, American soldiers are permitted to get away with this sort of thing by their officers.[Quote]

The mere presence of a massive number of foreigners that are forced to be there and have little or no interest in learning the local language or culture is going to cause much boredom and unrest, as Okinawa and else where have proven. Not to excuse it, but to try to explain.

[KirinMan]

Does anybody know if those 3 US military guys had to serve their time
in a Japanese prison? Having to serve in a foreign country's prison might
actually serve as a deterant, unless they think they've covered all the bases and can get away with it. But if they are drunk out of their minds, they probably aren't doing that much thinking.


Yes they are being held in a Japanese prison. Once a suspect has been handed over the US no longer has any jurisdiction over them. As the crime was committed in "Japan" against a Japanese person I think that is justified.

There was a time in the not too distant past where that wasnt the case. American's commited henious crimes, some even suspect murder, but were never held accountable for their actions.

[Kilt]

Reading
[I]"In 1960,[...] the American presence amounted to 46.000 troops stationed on several hundred military installations on Japan's 4 main islands, and another 37.000 soldiers in Okinawa.
Local residents detested the noise of these bases and the chronic instances of violence and rape perpetrated by the soldiers. In addition to tens of thousands of traffic accidents, over 100.000 crimes involving off-duty personnel and Japanese citizens took place from 1952 through the 1970's. The majority were incidents of assaults, including rape and murder. Some 500 Japanese were killed in accidents or assaults over these years.

100,000 crimes over 20 years = 5000 per year.
Over 80,000 troops indicates that 8% of the troops were involved in some sort of crime. That means over 90% of the troops are not involved in crime.
500 dealth over these years = 25 a year. Assuming similar statistics for US forces when compared with locals for vehicle deaths, more than 50% (about 14) of these deaths were due to traffic accidents and not associated with violent assaults. Consider the sex and age group of the people you are looking at (young males), these numbers are actually quite reasonable. Sadly I suspect a larger number of rapes and assaults went unreported.

You also have to factor in the time, this was after a major war between the US and Japan. Although you hear many stories of the US soldiers sharing food, candy and stuff like that with Japanese residents that were suffering in the years following the war, I suspect many US soldiers had some serious negative feelings towards the Japanese.

I am not justifying any crime, murder, rape or even a car accident. But if you attack another country and the next thing you know they take you over, I wouldn't expect preferential treatment. I think any crime, especially violent crime is one crime too many. But you are being unreasonable if you think it won't happen. And if you think of the alternatives to the US occupying Japan, I think the Japanese should be quite happy, as I doubt they would be very happy as a Communist Japan. Seriously, Japan was pretty short of Allies in 1945.

Kilt.

[包龙星]

1.Japan is an independent nation
2.Japan is one of the leaders in the field of world's tech\ economy and industry.
3.Japan has a big population in the world.
4.Japan government has the ability to solve problems of their own country.
5.Japan is Japanses peoples' own motherland, no one can share the rights with them in the land of Japan..

USA troop's existence in Japan reminds me of the shameful latest 150 years history of China...Though Japan's not my homeland,I still think it a evil deed.

[Kinneary]

Japan wants the US there, and therefore we are not imposing ourselves on them. I'm hard-pressed to see how Japan wanted the US to maintain its military presence in their country, and the US agreeing to do so, amounts to an evil, shameful, deed.

[justinod]

I looked at the article that one of you linked up there somewhere... but im new to the site and cant add links, lol. It seems that the Japanese press is a bit off on its characterization of foreigners and crime:
# Chinese (0.428%)
# Brazilians (0.351%)
# Japanese (0.291%)
# Russians (0.271%)
# Philippinos (0.101%)
# Thais (0,051%)
# Koreans (0.024%)
# Britons (0.021%)
# Americans (0.016%)
This is the breakdown of crimes per people based on nationality. It seems that americans are about 1/18th as likely to commit a crime in japan compared to japanese people. hmmm... there goes this thread! Looks like racism prevails in Japan once again since most people I talk to here in Japan seem to think that foreigners commit all the crime here.

[Sukotto]

I wouldn't say the whole thread is gone, since the title of it is:

"100.000 crimes commited by US forces in Japan"
(which does not include trafic accidents)
and that was between 1952-70, according to the article cited.

But you are probably right about the small percentage of crimes committed
by foreigners compared to natives. That sort of racism poisons the immigration debate in the US as well. I've seen it in my town's corporate owned newspaper. It is disgusting and people go off saying "i'm not racist", when they don't pay any attention to the statistics even if they are presented to them.

But the thread isn't really about crimes in general,
but crimes committed by US forces in Japan; part of the footprint the bases put down with their presence.

[justinod]

I see the point there. Yes, this thread is about the past. My comment was in response to the 99% of the posts here that are debating the CURRENT situation regarding the issue.
As far as the crime rates of immigrants in the USA, I would say that it is about the same when we are talking about AUTHORIZED immigrants. However, the illegal population is committing crimes at a much higher rate than citizens or legal residents. Keep in mind that 30% of LA's jails' population is illegal immigrants.
I should digress:
Yes, this is about the crimes of armed forces here in Japan. So the facts remain: American soldiers commit far fewer crimes by ratio (the 'but there are less of them' is irrelevant) then Japanese nationals by oh... about 18 to 1! Yes, the article refers to 'Americans' in Japan not exclusively the military personnel; the military here is probably about 98% of the American population that is here.
The other argument that has been used here is that the cases of crimes that are committed by US military men are not counted since they are prosecuted by way of the UCMJ. This is a false argument. Almost every article that contains a statistic about this topic uses ARRESTS! Thus, even if a sailor or marine commits