Project "Sono Tanka wa..." Phase TWO!

[Emoni]

Alright, for those who remember back a bit, I'm STILL working on my tanka project.

Due to some reasons, I've decided to write two tankas. The first I BELIEVE is finished, however if you see any mistakes what-so-ever let me know. Especially if you are sure it is incorrect.

On the first, the only area I'm personally unsure of is the use of ni or de in the phrase hitomi ni imasu. I'm fairly sure it is ni though. This one is written more formally.

The second tanka is still very new, and VERY flawed as well. Any advice and comments are welcome. This one is meant to be written more casual and personal.

A final comment. The first tanka I want to title as "What is seen" or "sight" (Miru?) and the second I want to be "feelings" or "what is felt" (Komochi?). I'm at a loss how to say this part especially.



Tanka #1 "What is seen")

美しい 5 Utsukushi Beautiful
いつも賢い 7 Itsumo kashikoi Always intelligent
親切な 5 Shinsetsu na Kindness
瞳に居ます 7 Hitomi ni imasu This is in your eyes/In your eyes are these
さようなら姫 7 Sayounara hime Good bye Princess



Tanka #2 "Feelings")

その凝視 5 Sono Gyoushi That look/That gaze
言葉あるない 7 Kotoba Aru Nai There are no words
オライオン 5 Oraion Orion (constelation)
夜空を去った 7 Yozora wo Satta It has left the night sky.
いいの夢だった 7 Ii no yume datta It was a good dream...


Thanks for any help you can give, I wouldn't have made it this far without help previously.

[Golgo_13]

Tanka #1 "What is seen")

美しい 5 Utsukushi Beautiful
いつも賢い 7 Itsumo kashikoi Always intelligent
親切な 5 Shinsetsu na Kindness
瞳に居ます 7 Hitomi ni imasu This is in your eyes/In your eyes are these
さようなら姫 7 Sayounara hime Good bye Princess

美しい 5 Utsukushi - try Utsukushiku
いつも賢い 7 Itsumo kashikoi - try itsumo kashikoku

The use of "ku" instead of "i" allows the lines to flow better.

kashikoi = is a bit on the patronizing side. You'd use it for friends and little kids. "Kimi wa kashikoi ne." Do you really want to describe how intelligent she is? Is it that important? In a Tanka? How about "Itsumo yasashiku" (still 7 syllables). Yasashii is "being sweet" whereas shinsetsu is kind.

瞳に居ます 7 Hitomi ni imasu - Not really said this way in japanese. Probably better to say "Can be seen in your eyes" Hitomi ni mieru (7)

姫 is generic princess. To make it more poetic, you want to use "o姫sama" but that uses up 5 syllables. You want to at least have an "o" in front of "hime". There might be a more archaic term for good-bye (since this is about feudal period I assume). Let me check.



I'll look at the other tanka another time.

[Emoni]

Very insightful Golgo. Thank you for looking at it so close. I guess it isn't quite as finished as I believed it was, I'll have to make sure to look at it more.

Thank you.

[Golgo_13]

-------------------------------
I'm goin' line by line:

Tanka #2 "Feelings")

その凝視 5 Sono Gyoushi That look/That gaze
Good!

言葉あるない 7 Kotoba Aru Nai There are no words
Can't say it like that.
Try "Kotoba ni dekinai" (8) or "kotoba ni dekinu" (7)

オライオン 5 Oraion Orion (constelation)
Tha Japanese pronounce this o-ri-o-n (4), so add a 1-sound preposition like "no" or "ga" etc.

夜空を去った 7 Yozora wo Satta It has left the night sky.
Good!

いいの夢だった 7 Ii no yume datta It was a good dream...
Drop the "の". "だった" is 3 sounds.

[Emoni]

Going to work on a redo of these both tonight or tomorrow if I can.

On the shorter version of "good bye" for the first. In two dictionaries I noticed Sayounara written as sayonara sometimes. Is it actually possible to drop the extra 'u' or is this just a mistake in them?

(Edit only O-Ri-O-N huh? Never ever would have guessed that. Thanks for pointing it out.)

[Golgo_13]

On the shorter version of "good bye" for the first. In two dictionaries I noticed Sayounara written as sayonara sometimes. Is it actually possible to drop the extra 'u' or is this just a mistake in them?

Yes, you can drop the "U".


(Edit only O-Ri-O-N huh? Never ever would have guessed that. Thanks for pointing it out.)

There are other suggestions there.

"Saraba" (Portuguese derived) is a good word for "good bye".

"Ohime yo saraba" -- 7 syllables!

[Emoni]

Hmmm, guess it's a toss up between the shortened Sayonara Ohime(does it lose any meaning droping the u? Less formal?) and Ohime yo saraba. Never ever seen saraba before, and confused by the yo. Not sure it quite fits, but if I can drop the u without a loss then I'll change the hime to Ohime like you recomend.

[Emoni]

Here is the next revision. Let me know what you think.


Tanka #1 "What is seen")

美しく 5 Utsukushiku "Beautiful"
とても賢く 7 Totemo Kashikoku "Very bright"
悲しみも 5 Kanashimi mo "Sorrow also"
瞳に見える 7 Hitomi ni Mieru "In your eyes, I see these"
さよならお姫 7 Sayonara Ohime "Good bye Princess"



Tanka #2 "What is felt")

その凝視 5 Sono Gyoushi "That look"
言葉にできぬ 7 Kotoba ni dekinu "There are no words"
オリオンは 5 Orion wa "Orion"
夜空を去った 7 Yozora wo satta "Has left the night sky"
いい夢だった 7 Ii yume datta "It was a good dream"


On tanka #1, I'm trying to start with three "ideas" that are seen in her eyes. Beauty, Inteligence, but sadness as well. Then a good bye. I'm not sure I used the correct form of the words to do this however. The tenses are probably wrong even still :(

On tanka two, it has three parts. First about the look on her face (which I might never figure out... another story) and that there are no words. The second part has to do with the constelation orion leaving the sky now, as it is summer. The third has to do with everything being a very nice "dream" at least for me that is... more of a remembering. I'm hoping the last line doesn't sound too happy, or discounting of the the first four lines.

Anyway. Some year I'll finish this ;) Then to pray my shodo skills are good enough.

[Golgo_13]

Hmmm, guess it's a toss up between the shortened Sayonara Ohime(does it lose any meaning droping the u? Less formal?) and Ohime yo saraba. Never ever seen saraba before, and confused by the yo. Not sure it quite fits, but if I can drop the u without a loss then I'll change the hime to Ohime like you recomend.

Do that. Sayonara Ohime is good. "Saraba" is only used by males.

Here is the next revision. Let me know what you think.
Tanka #1 "What is seen")
美しく 5 Utsukushiku "Beautiful"
とても賢く 7 Totemo Kashikoku "Very bright"
悲しみも 5 Kanashimi mo "Sorrow also"
瞳に見える 7 Hitomi ni Mieru "In your eyes, I see these"
さよならお姫 7 Sayonara Ohime "Good bye Princess"

Tanka #2 "What is felt")
その凝視 5 Sono Gyoushi "That look"
言葉にできぬ 7 Kotoba ni dekinu "There are no words"
オリオンは 5 Orion wa "Orion"
夜空を去った 7 Yozora wo satta "Has left the night sky"
いい夢だった 7 Ii yume datta "It was a good dream"


On Tanka #1: The things you see in her eyes--you have adjectives (utsukushii, kashikoi) and a noun (kanashimi). Make them nouns since you can't really see adjectives--try using utsukushisa or kashikosa. Still, "kashikoi" to describe a young adult princess doesn't sound right. If she's about 4 or 5 years old you could use "Orikouna". I still wouldn't dwell on the intelligence part. That's not really a quality that makes a princess appealing.

On Tanka #2: "gyoushi" is okay, but it's not a commonly used word. Try something else that's more often used in poetry or song lyrics like "shisen" (still 3 sounds). And compare "ii yume o mita" with what you have. The rest looks good.

[Emoni]

So adding "sa" to the end of an adjective makes it a noun? I never got to that level of Japanese, so hopefully I can use that correctly.

Intelligence is one of the most important parts so I have to have something like "Totemo Kashikosa" in the tanka. As for the 4 or 5 year old princess thing... well if she was that young there would be a SERIOUS problem here lol

I looked up shisen, and might change to that. It is more common and poety hmm? Probably will change to that then.

I'm wondering on mieru though, is it the informal form of the verb? I was trying to keep the first formal, and wasn't sure if this broke that?

Thanks again for all the help. These two tanka should be ready soon enough, the final review will be to have someone who is Japanese take a look at it. But first have to get it as close to perfect as possible :)

[Golgo_13]

So adding "sa" to the end of an adjective makes it a noun? I never got to that level of Japanese, so hopefully I can use that correctly.

yes,
Kashikoi => Kashikosa
Kanashii=> Kanashisa
Yasashii => Yasashisa

美しく 5 Utsukushiku "Beautiful"
とても賢く 7 Totemo Kashikoku "Very bright"
悲しみも 5 Kanashimi mo "Sorrow also"
瞳に見える 7 Hitomi ni Mieru "In your eyes, I see these"
さよならお姫 7 Sayonara Ohime

But in your tanka you should stick with "utsukushiku" etc. Sounds better. I take back what I said.

Intelligence is one of the most important parts so I have to have something like "Totemo Kashikosa" in the tanka. As for the 4 or 5 year old princess thing... well if she was that young there would be a SERIOUS problem here lol

Then you shouldn't use "Kashikoi". That's what I meant. You use that word for a little kid, but not appropriate for an adult.

Either way, you can't use "totemo" with kashikosa, so you'll have to keep it as kashikoku

I'm wondering on mieru though, is it the informal form of the verb? I was trying to keep the first formal, and wasn't sure if this broke that?


There might be other verbs (to see) but mieru is perfectly acceptable.

-----------------

If you must emphasize intelligence, don't use "kashikoi". That's not very formal and it doesn't sound right for your tanka. A little child or a dog is "kashikoi" but not a princess that you have in mind.

Is her intelligence comparable to that of a professor or a scientist? Then consider

優れた 【すぐれた】(4 sounds) great; excellent
知能 【ちのう】(3 sounds) (n) intelligence; brains;

"優れた 知能" would be appropriate to describe Einstein, and it's 7 sounds

BUT THEN . . . it still doesn't sound right because your tanka is dealing with feelings and emotions, not science or mechanics.

People say "Atama ga ii" to say that someone is very intelligent. It's still informal but unlike "kashikoi" it can be used to refer to adults.

美しく 5 Utsukushiku "Beautiful"
Atama mo yokute (7) "Very bright"
悲しみも 5 Kanashimi mo "Sorrow also"
瞳に見える 7 Hitomi ni Mieru "In your eyes, I see these"
さよならお姫 7 Sayonara Ohime

Why is her beauty and intelligence seen in her eyes ONLY? You can just see how beautiful she is without even looking in her eyes, right?

DO you want to say "You are beautiful. You are intelligent. But I can see sorrow in your eyes. Good bye Princess?"

Then try

美しく 5 Utsukushiku "Beautiful"
Atama mo ii ga 7 < "Very bright, but . . ."
悲しみga 5 Kanashimi ga
瞳に見える 7 Hitomi ni Mieru "In your eyes, I see sorrow"
さよならお姫 7 Sayonara Ohime

Ganbatte kudasai!

[Emoni]

Alright, back to the writing board. Thanks :)

[Emoni]

Here we go, I think I'm nearing the finish line finally... I think! ;)


Tanka #1) "What is seen"

美しさ 5 Utsukushisa Beauty
優れた知能 7 Sugureta Chinou Great intelligence
悲しみも 5 Kanashimi mo Sorrow as well
瞳に見える 7 Hitomi ni mieru These I see in your eyes
さよならお姫 7 Sayonara Ohime Good bye Princess


Tanka #2) "What is felt"

その視線　 5 Sono Shisen That look
言葉にできぬ 7 Kotoba ni dekinu There are no words
袖星は 5 Sode Boshi wa The sleave stars
夜空を去った 7 Yozora wo satta They have left the night sky
いい夢だった 7 Ii yume datta It was a good dream


Current issues with Tanka #1)

-Title "what is seen" or "vision" maybe has still not been figured out how to say.
- Wanted all the first three lines to be "ideas" that are seen and expressed in her eyes. Hopefully the tenses are now appropriate.

Current issues with Tanka #2)

-Title "What is felt" or "feelings" still not figured out how to write.
-Not sure if to use O Ri O N, O Ra I O N, or Sode Boshi. Sode Boshi seems to be the japanese name of the constellation, which if common enough and well know I'd prefer to use probably.
-The last line still doesn't feel right. Mita seems to be used with dream as you hinted. Yet I'm not sure if it would work? Ii yume o mita seems to be I had a nice dream, compared to ii yume datta which seems to be it was a nice dream.



Whew...

[Golgo_13]

Yoku dekimashita! :bravo:

Good work! :bravo:

Good idea to keep foreign words (like "orion") out of a Tanka. duh. :D

Here's my translation of a classic American Poem into a haiku:

Shitsuren shi
Unko shinikite
Onara dake :hihi:

(originally in English)
Here I sit brokenhearted
Came to **** and
Only farted

:D :cool: :bravo: :sorry: :blush:

[Emoni]

lol ok that is wierd! :D

So I guess this is as close as I can get for now? I'll run it by a native speaker and hopefully they can clear it through the "final stage" then it's off to thousands of hours of shodo practice heh :)

[Golgo_13]

Alright, back to the writing board. Thanks :)

Oh, and please don't forget to give me some "reputation" points. :D :D :D :D :D

[Emoni]

Dunno what that does, but already did that a while ago actually ;)

[Golgo_13]

I wuz just kiddin', but thank you anyhao. :bow: