Zen Buddhism

[Hoyu]

This thread was created for any who might be interested in discussing topics directly related to Zen Buddhism.

Just to get the ball rolling you can click on the following hyperlink to check out a really cool Zen Multimedia Website:

http://www.do-not-zzz.com/

p.s. make sure you have your speakers on, and do a lot of clicking around with your mouse.

[Maciamo]

This site is very attractive. Sorry for using this word, but it's true. It's quite entertaining. I was just wondering why it says that, when meditating, you should listen to sounds you don't usually hear (and close your eyes, like the monk on the picture, I guess). Does Zen buddhism privilege hearing over seeing ? Why is that so ?

NB : When the fly came on the head of the monk, I waited and waited, but it seems that it has been programmed in a lineary way, so that you can't continue to the next page if you don't click on it (or anywhere on the screen). I felt cheated, as I had no way of "winning" ("be right"). That presupposed that nobody visiting this site knows about meditation, or could endure the virtual fly bothering.

[Hoyu]

Originally posted by Maciamo

Does Zen buddhism privilege hearing over seeing ? Why is that so ?

Because when we practice Zen, we are actually sitting in Zazen with our eyes focused three feet in front of us. The eyes lose focus while in Zazen, and this is what causes the sense of hearing to become incredibly vibrant.

Originally posted by Maciamo

NB : When the fly came on the head of the monk, I waited and waited, but it seems that it has been programmed in a lineary way, so that you can't continue to the next page if you don't click on it (or anywhere on the screen). I felt cheated, as I had no way of "winning" ("be right"). That presupposed that nobody visiting this site knows about meditation, or could endure the virtual fly bothering.

The fact that you felt cheated suggests that there is an incredibly huge ego that needs awareness of. The intent of this Multimedia website is to offer you a basic understanding of this fact. This site presupposes that the vast majority of those who come to Zen through a Multimedia site have absolutely no clue what our practice is about.

Were you bored when the fly was upon the head of the master? Were you trying to get something more out of it? If you had just sat there for hours watching the fly on the sensei's head... what then?

I would love to explain the basics of Japanese Zen to any who are interested, but I can assure you that there will be a lot of the same sort of exercise involved. Zen is one of the most boring things that anyone could think of. Are you sure you want to know more about it Maciamo?

[Hoyu]

ZEN IS BORING

Let's face it. Zen is boring. You couldn't find a duller, more tedious practice than Zazen. The philosophy is dry and unexciting. It's amazing to me anyone reads this page at all. Don't you people know you could be playing Tetris, right now? That there are a million free porno sites out there? Get a life, why don't you?!

Joshu Sasaki, a Zen teacher from the Rinzai Sect, once said that Buddhist teachers always try to make students long for the Buddha World, but that if the students knew how really dry and tasteless the Buddha World actually was, they'd never want to go. He's right. Look at Zen teachers. Not a one of them has any sense of fashion. They sit around staring at blank walls. Ask them about levitation, they won't tell you. Ask them about life after death, they change the subject. Ask them about miracles and they start spouting nonsense about carrying buckets of water and chopping up fire wood. They go to bed early and wake up early. Zen is a philosophy for nerds.

Boredom is important. Most of your life is dull, tasteless and boring. If you practice Zazen, you learn a lot about boredom. I remember the first time I sat Zazen, I was real excited. I figured I'd be seeing visions of four armed Krishnas descending from the Heavens, or I'd be fading into The Void just like the old Beatles song, or reach Nirvana (whatever that was) or some great wonderful thing. But the clock just ticked away, my legs started aching, and stupid thoughts kept drifting by. Maybe I wasn't doing it right, I thought. But no, year after year it was the same. Boring, boring, boring. After almost 20 years it's still boring as Hell.

People hate their ordinary lives. We want something better. This, our day to day life of drudgery and work, is boring, dull and ordinary, we think. But someday, someday... There's an episode of The Monkees* where Mike Nesmith says that when he was in high school he used to walk out on the school's empty stage with a guitar in his hands thinking "Someday, someday." Then he said that now (now being 1967, at the height of the Monkees fame) he walks out on stage in front of thousands of fans and thinks "Someday, someday." That's the way life is. It's never going to be perfect. Whatever "someday" you imagine, it will ever come. Never. No matter what it is. No matter how well you build your fantasy or how carefully you follow all the steps necessary to achieve it. Even if it comes true exactly the way you planned, you'll end up just like Mike Nesmith. Someday, someday... I guarantee you.

Your life will change. That's for sure. But it won't get any better and it won't get any worse. How can you compare now to the past? What do you know about the past? You don't have a clue! You have no idea at all what yesterday was really like, let alone last week or ten years ago. The future? Forget about it...

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can't tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I've ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.

You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that. Countless teachers would have interpreted my experience as a merging of my Atman with God, as a portent of great and wonderful things, would have praised my spiritual growth and given me pointers on how to go even further. And I would have been suckered right in to that, let me tell you! Woulda fallen for it hook line and sinker, boy howdy. If a teacher doesn't shatter your illusions he's doing you no favors at all.

Boredom is what you need. Merging with the Mind of God at the Edge of the Universe, that's excitement. That's what we're all into this Zen thing for, right? Eating tangerines? Come on, dude! What could be more boring than eating a tangerine?

Some years ago some psychologists did a study in which they sat some Buddhists monks and some regular folks in a room and wired them up to EEG machines to record their brain activity. They told everyone to relax, then introduced a repetitive stimulus, a loudly ticking clock, into the room. The normal folks' EEG showed that their brains stopped reacting the stimulus after a few seconds. But the Buddhists just kept on mentally registering the tick every time it happened. Psychologists and journalists never quite know how to interpret that finding, though it's often cited. It's a simple matter. Buddhists pay attention to their lives. Ordinary folks figure they have better things to think about.

If you really take a look at your ordinary boring life, you'll discover something truly wonderful. Our regular old pointless lives are incredibly joyful -- amazingly, astoundingly, relentlessly, mercilessly joyful. You don't need to do a damned thing to experience such joy either. People think they need big experiences, interesting experiences. And it's true that gigantic, traumatic experiences sometimes bring people, for a fleeting moment, into a kind of enlightened state. That's why such experiences are so desired. But it wears off fast and you're right back out there looking for the next thrill. You don't need to take drugs, blow up buildings, win the Indy 500 or walk on the moon. You don't need to go hang-gliding over the Himalayas, you don't need to screw your luscious and oh-so-willing secretary or party all night with the beautiful people. You don't need visions of merging with the totality of the Universe. Just be what you are, where you are. Clean the toilet. Walk the dog. Do your work. That's the most magical thing there is. If you really want to merge with God, that's the way to do it. This moment. You sitting there with your hand in your underwear and potato chip crumbs on your chin, scrolling down your computer screen thinking "This guy's out of his mind." This very moment is Enlightenment. This moment has never come before and once it's gone, it's gone forever. You are this moment. This moment is you. This very moment is you merging with the total Universe, with God Himself.

The life you're living right now has joys even God will never know.



FOOTNOTE

*For those of you not up on old US pop culture, The Monkees was a TV comedy show about a rock and roll band that ran from 1967-68 and was rerun throughout the 70s. The Monkees were supposed to be just like The Beatles. Mike Nesmith was the "leader" of the band, the John Lennon character. To everyone's surprise, when The Monkees, a fake rock band, went on tour they attracted almost as many squealing teenage fans as The Beatles had a few years before.

Source: http://www2.gol.com/users/doubtboy/boring.html

[Maciamo]

I think you have the wrong person. I wasn't bored when the fly flew around. I am rarely bored, because if nothing happens, I still have to many things to think about, or just relax (what you call meditation). I have tried a lot of things in my life, and I know very well that extreme situations or material possessions don't bring you happiness; it depends on your state of mind. I have been 5 months in India, living with the minimum necessary, but I was happier than when I was a child getting anything I wanted jwhen I wanted. I sometimes despise some people I know very well (I won't tell more) for being too materialistic (though I also was when I was little). Some people think they can only be happy if they buy brand clothes, go on holiday to a luxury resort in Hawaii, buy the newest tehnologies when they are released, eat at expensive restaurants... you get the picture. Actually, it never shocked me as much as in Japan. Japanese people seem so spiritually deprived that the only thing they understand is money (my wife as well, and it's no need trying to change her). That's why it makes me laugh to hear Westerners believing that Japanese (or Chinese as well) are Buddhist. Who knows, there might be a higher proportion of Buddhist-minded people in Western countries than in Japan.

If enjoying the taste of a tangerine is a form of enlightment, then I am an accomplished Buddhist without knowing it.

I am interested in Buddhism, but I am not looking for "peak experiences, amazing visions or nirvana", neither to become a better person (better for whom, with which criteria ?). I don't even care about doctrine and rules. I am an "spiritual" atheist, and I didn't like hearing of "God" in Brad Warner's passage. Buddhist is kind of pantheistic, but I'd rather call the "whole" either the Universe or the Nature (and without "mother").

[Hoyu]

The following is another link to a pretty cool (yet boring) Multimedia website produced by Kodaiji Temple in Kyoto:

http://www.do-not-zzz.com/zero/index.html

[Hoyu]

You must have mistaken me for someone who could have mistaken you as being the wrong person. I, too, have traveled quite extensively around the world, and many things I had encountered on my travels were quite interesting at first, but soon lost their appeal and became downright boring. It's interesting that you had mentioned Hawaii. I lived eight years in Hawaii. At first I simply could not get enough of surfing, snorkeling and hiking... in fact they seemed very zen-like to me in their not needing me to think... just experience the moment. Yet, like everything else, after a while they became boring to me and I just lost interest. So I moved on to other pursuits. It's really interesting when you live in a place like Hawaii for so long that you realize that you have actually begun to take it for granted.

As I had written in a post on another thread here at the Japan Forum, I know that Buddhism plays a relatively small role in present day Japan. Buddhist funerals and cultural festivals are for the most part the only involvement that the average Japanese person has with the religion. Most Japanese don't attend weekly services like you might find Western Buddhists doing. The thing is that there are a lot of cultural things of Japanese society that have their roots in Buddhist philosophy. Most don't think about festivals like Obon and Hanamatsuri as having Buddhist affiliation, but they do. Many of the ancient arts still practiced in Japan also have a Buddhist influence. Zen Masters have been quite famous for their poetry, calligraphy, tea ceremony and archery throughout several hundreds of years in Japanese history. And even cartoons like "Ikkyu san" have filtered some Buddhist humor and wisdom into mainstream society.

Regardless, the national poll shows that of those who claim a religion in Japan, the vast majority claim to be Buddhist. My understanding is that while Shinto pre-dates Buddhism, and is more spiritual in its pantheistic approach to daily life, Buddhism is quite agnostic and has in recent times taken a back seat to daily life applications. You mentioned that, "Japanese people seem so spiritually deprived that the only thing they understand is money" and I have also witnessed this. While the Kami shrine of Daigoku-Sama appears to be incredibly popular in Japan, only a relatively small and elite group of Japanese scholars attend lectures on the Buddha's teachings.

The attempt to attain "peak experiences" or have "amazing visions" is not Buddhism, and "nirvana" is nothing more than your own awareness of enjoying the tangerine. It's very ordinary, contrary to popular belief. And when Brad Roshi uses the term "god," you have to understand that his primary audiences are theists of some form or the other. As Buddhists, most don't have an opinion on if "god" does or does not exist, nor is it an issue for us... that is until someone makes it an issue. Brad Roshi obviously knows his audience because he gets tons of email about his website.

I should probably make one thing lucidly clear here Maciamo. Buddhism accepts both atheist and theist my friend, yet the key is in seeing beyond all dualistic designations including better/worse and atheist/theist .

How do you do that?

Well... I can assure you that it's very boring. :o

[Maciamo]

Hmm, that was on the same site as the other clip.

Could you maybe explain the concept of thi site ? What is the point of the "can you see it" or "listen" part ? My wife happened to see the part with the kind of spheres we could zoom in. I was trying to guess what they were (pralines ?), but her instant reaction was : "kimochi warui, kimochi warui, mou yamete yo !".

Quite funny to see how differently we perceive things. To the question "where are you ?", I answered the same as the Chinese guy : "here !" Of course, I am not in the computer, not in this movie, just watching it from outside. I am maybe to down-to-earth for this kind of riddles.

[Maciamo]

The thing is that there are a lot of cultural things of Japanese society that have their roots in Buddhist philosophy. Most don't think about festivals like Obon and Hanamatsuri as having Buddhist affiliation, but they do. Many of the ancient arts still practiced in Japan also have a Buddhist influence.

Everything depends on what you call Buddhism. For me, Buddhism is the teachings of Gautama and that's all. Like for Christianity, people have added and arranged the original concepts with their own believes and for political reasons. Christians have Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Coptics, Armenians, etc. Muslims have Sunni and Shi'ite. Buddhist have too many sects to name here. Some are radically different. Nichiren is intolerant and want the anihilation of other sects. That's almost anti-buddhist in itself.

As for Obon, its origins are probably more animist than Buddhist, as it is the cult of the ancestry, something that might have come straight from China. I have never heard of such a thing in India or Tibet. I don't think that Gautama (a Hindu) would have been in favour of ancestors worshiping.

Hanamatsuri ? Is that "Hina Matsuri" ?

Zen Masters have been quite famous for their poetry, calligraphy, tea ceremony and archery throughout several hundreds of years in Japanese history.

Well, this has nothing to do with Buddhism itself. Ask a Thai or Tibetan monk about tea ceremony or archery... You are saying that lots of Japanese cultural things have their roots in Buddhism, but really show that its (Japanese) Buddhism that has been influenced by Japanese culture.

Regardless, the national poll shows that of those who claim a religion in Japan, the vast majority claim to be Buddhist.

Maybe, but when I ask most people a few question about Buddhism, they are completely at a loss. I hear things like "we go to th Buddhist temple on New year's day", when they really mean to the "Shinto shrine". Where I live, nobody can tell me for sure if the "fudousan" is Buddhist or Shinto (well, it is Buddhist). If I speak of Shingon or of Soto and Rinzai Zen, 95% of the people have either never heard of it or don't know what it is. We somebody tells me they are Buddhist in their family, I ask which sect and they are not even sure. The funniest thing is that a year ago, I didn't know anything about Japanese Buddhism - so I am not at all a specialist, but I know more than the so-called "native" Buddhist, which is really alarming.

yet the key is in seeing beyond all dualistic designations including better/worse and atheist/theist .

I don't usually make dual oppositions. There are myriads of religious/spiritual point of view ; some have been callled or grouped under such names as : monotheism, polytheism, animism, agnosticism, deism, atheism, pantheism.... Of course this is a very simplified view. Among polytheist, you have the one believing in natural gods (sun, sky, fertility, thunder, etc.) and other in "human gods" (wisdom, art, beauty, love, war, hunting, king of the gods, etc.) or even mix of both. Some atheist just don't care about religion (like most Japanese people), other are atheist for philosophical reasons (like me). Contrarily to the majority of the people, I don't have a dualistic view of the world, but rather gradualistic or plural. There is no good nor bad for me. All depends on the point of view, the situation and the system of values itself.

[Hoyu]

Originally posted by Maciamo

Hmm, that was on the same site as the other clip.

Could you maybe explain the concept of this site ? What is the point of the "can you see it" or "listen" part ?

Yes... Kodaiji is the only Zen Buddhist organization that has attempted such multimedia pieces. It's kind of like sitting in a park watching the bird’s fly, the wind in the trees, a dog trotting by, etc. Instead of thinking bird, wind, tree, dog... sometimes we just take it all in without separating things conceptually into dualistic designations. This website is supposed to inspire a similar awakenedness. But then at the end it suddenly asks, "where are you?", as if to point out that during the process of going through the motions of this multimedia piece the "you" "I" or "me" was not present. There was only the experience, without the need to separate self from other. Then you might have noticed that all the words posted on the message board by people whom had had the same experience, were suddenly thrown up into your face (to eventually cover your entire monitor screen), and this was obviously added to simply drive the point home. Our minds are so full of thoughts, multitasking almost ceaselessly. In the peace of experiencing the moment without a dichotomous rational fueling our fire, we may actually awaken to nirvana. True... we can't stay there... but knowing it's there is a tremendous leap in the right direction (IMHO).

[Hoyu]

Let me first just say how grateful I am to have met someone as kind and congenial to dialogue on such challenging topics as yourself.

I am cool with your definition of what Buddhism is. The Buddha-dharma (teachings) is definitely the heart of the proverbial artichoke. Yet I never said that certain festivals like Obon had their origins in Buddhist thought, just an enhancing affiliation with it. As Buddhism moved from India down into SE Asia and up through the silk rout to China and then on to Korea and Japan, it took on the facade of the many different cultures it came into contact with. While Buddha had taken a rather proactive stance against certain aspects of Hinduism (i.e. the caste system and the concept of a permanent and independent "self"), Buddhism has for the most part absorbed mainstream spiritualities of every country it has come into contact with, and this is exactly why traditions like Zen had absorbed Taoist concepts in China and Shinto concepts in Japan. BTW Hanamatsuri (http://www.seattlebetsuin.com/HANAMATSU%20RI.htm) is a Japanese festival held all over the world in celebration of the Buddha's birth.

This being said... I think you are simply nit-picking in regard to the archery issue, and you know full well what I am speaking about here. There are a lot of cultural aspects of Japanese society that have an application of Buddhist philosophy.

Your comments on the naiveté of the vast majority of Japanese people, which I have also experienced, in regard to recognizing the different sects of Japanese Buddhism, are quite well founded good friend. Designations like Soto-shu, Rinzai-shu, Obaku-shu, Kegon-shu, Tendai-shu, Nicherin-shu, Jodo-shu and even Jodo Shin-shu appear to be quite foreign to many Nihonjin. While living in Japan I learned to ask about the founders names instead. If you ask if they have ever heard of "Shinran Shonen" (for example) you may meet a few that will respond apparently knowingly of the teachings of that particular daishonen.

Don't be alarmed that you think you "know more" about Buddhism than the majority of people you might meet in Japan. And that whole "Native Buddhist" conceptuality should be abandoned ASAP. You have spent much energy here attempting to debate the fact that Nihinjin are not Buddhist... from where does this "Native Buddhist" notion come? Buddhism is not JUST Japanese. It has moved through Japanese history as an integral part, yet is global at this point. I would suggest that anyone who takes the "Triple Gems" is in fact a "Native Buddhist." Some just have a need to dig more into the esoteric teachings of my religion than others, and after having been there and done that, I find myself a bit envious of those who simply practice in freedom from many of these concepts.

You stated, "There is no good nor bad for me. All depends on the point of view, the situation and the system of values itself." and I couldn’t have said it better myself.

In deep appreciation and gratitude :bow:

[Anastasia]

I hate to intrude but what you two have been talking about sounds so facinating to me. I'm a very simple person and even the smallest things make me happy. Though I do find it hard to fit in with my age group (I'm 19) because I dont like to drink and party, I dont feel the NEED to do drugs or to have a constant boyfriend.
So far I really like the sound of Zen, it actually sounds interesting to me (like i said i'm a simple person)
I love photography and working outdoors, I'm in school right now to be a Fish and Wildlife Technician and that is what makes me happy. Being outside and helping nature is what i really like.

[Hoyu]

You may just be able to find a Zen teacher near you Anastasia.
Click on the following hyperlink to check it out:
http://www.iijnet.or.jp/iriz/zen_centers/country_list_e.html

[miyuki]

Hi,Kakuzen,Machiamo.

Kakuzen said;
>There are a lot of cultural aspects of Japanese society
>that have an application of Buddhist philosophy.

In public school, we never learn about the principl of Buddhism.
Only we learn when Buddha began to preach in India.
On the other hand, our teachers used to say that when we learned American or European culture,we had to learn Christianity.
They said it was common sence for learners.

Buddhism for Japanese is the same as Christianity for
Americans or Europeans?...I am not sure,
though I know some of our culture or events issured from Buddhism.


At any rate,I have to learn about Buddhism to talk with you.*S*

[moyashi]

@Kakuzen
Welcome and yoroshiku!

@ buddahood
Wahoo!

Great Thread. I've been itching for a level of dialogue for a while now. I bought a feng shui (fu sui) book to keep myself occupied in the mean time.

I wish I had the time to have a few beers with the local monks, roll around and jolly it up.

I really need the practice to train my mind, myself and to remember that I'm already a buddha. Gee, I forget sucha simple thing all the time and it pisses me off actually. Which is a problem too. So, here I am a dog chasing his own tail when he should know that dang tail is his own and he shouldn't be chasing it. But, he dogs didn't chase their tails we wouldn't have zen or any of the other offshoots of buddhism ... hehe, I wish I could just write *nix to denote a flavor of UNIX.

@ joke-hood
I have 2 of the gems in my trunks ;)

@ ewww
Moyashi is a lewd buddha

:D

Cheers !!

[Anastasia]

Thank you Kakuzen :bow:
if i was living in my old city i could go to the one in Hamilton but unfortunatly i moved 8.5 hrs away from toronto to practicaly the middle of nowhere! (i'm right beside Sault Michigan) HAHAH no not the middle of nowhere but definatly not anywhere near any of those locations :)
thanx anyway ^_^

[Hoyu]

Originally posted by Anastasia

if i was living in my old city i could go to the one in Hamilton but unfortunately i moved 8.5 hrs away from toronto to practically the middle of nowhere!

In that case I suggest you visit the following web page, and read starting with the lectures given by Taitaku Pat Phelan:

http://www.intrex.net/chzg/talklist.htm

Please let me know if I might be of any further assistance. :bow:

[moyashi]

:D hehe, why's that? :D

[moyashi]

hmmm, OK, I do admit I have my faults and sometimes come across aa being a jerk and various other wonderful pleasantries but I think we have a small misunderstanding here largely on my part, my wording didn't come over as I had expected it would.

I've been techincally a Buddhist since 1991 or so. I just don't go around telling people since the sect that I'm technically still listed in isn't thought well of in Japan. I did have problems with that sect's organization and recruiting techniques in the States and I do make comments about how they spend money in Japan but I have never complained about the teachings that they follow.

I pray at the family butsudan every OBON at the temple where the ancestor's bones and ashes are kept. I admit that I enjoy this occasion quite a bit since I enjoy the tranquilty of the place? the praying? what ever the feeling I have when I go round praying at the family graves and temple located family butsudan is just so ... speachless.

I also have read several different books on zen, buddhism, and sychronicity and how it relates to buddhism. At the time Amazon wasn't yet on the net and books to be found in Japan where at a premium so my choices my have been bad. I also am very found of Taoism. I do have a strange sense of religion and have found myself corrected by friends especially concerning Catholism.

So, sorry if you possibly took offence at my try at zen wit. It was just that after reading 2 years ago about zen and the many quizes (err forgot the actual term) I was really excited to see a person here on the boards who is actually an apparent practicioner and was hoping to have found guidance.

[Hoyu]

After reading this most recent post from Moyashi, you could have knocked me over with a feather (in a good way). Thomas suggested that I should "cross swords" with you. So my most recent post (which was later deleted by Thomas) was a sort of calling you out on comments you had made both here, and on the following thread.

http://forum.japanreference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=697

Well... censorship has it's pros and cons. Regardless... I must say that if you are sincere in your most recent post to this thread, then you quite obviously are not a Buddhist-basher. You’re just someone with an odd sense of humor that will probably take me some time to catch on to.

I assume you are a member of the SGI, due to your obscure references to the sect.

And in that case:

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo!!! :bow:

[thomas]

Just to avoid public confusion: I regard this issue as peacefully resolved.

Love & peace.

[moyashi]

SGI, yeah, that's the sect.

Back in college, a bit difficult to explain, I was sort of recruited by a high school friend's mom. At the time, I had given it a go and later ended up quitting after bumping into an area manager. I couldn't withdraw my name from the list because of my high school friend's mother and the respect and thanks I had for her. The funny thing was that about 2 months after the incident, the guidelines for the US were changed and the area manager got horizontally transferred to a non-important post.

I must admit that I was very glad to have had the chance to go through such an interesting experience while living in the States.

I like forward to reading more from you!

[Hoyu]

Thanks Moyashi...

This thread was actually started in response to a couple of multimedia pages that the good people at Kodaiji had launched on the web.

Did you get a chance to check them out?

http://www.do-not-zzz.com/

http://www.do-not-zzz.com/zero/index.html

[moyashi]

Ugh ... I walked into the fly thing. I should've been more on my toes.

I liked them.
Too bad I'm the type that doesn't have time to kick back and enjoy things more.

[Anastasia]

woah there are female Buddhist??? neat i didnt think females could be Buddist. As you can see my knowledge on Buddism is VERY limitied :blush: but i am willing to learn in my free time away from the heavy loads of school work :) (gotta keep my grades up!)

[Hoyu]

It's quite interesting that while in the Theravadin Buddhist traditions of SE Asia (Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, etc.) you might be hard pressed to find a female monk (aka. nun). Yet in the Mahayana traditions found in Taiwan the vast majority of monastics are all female, and you will also find many Buddhist nuns in Tibetan Buddhism, Korean Buddhism, Vietnamese Buddhism and even in Japanese Buddhism (however... mainly in Japanese traditions practiced in the West).

[Hoyu]

Originally posted by moyashi

Too bad I'm the type that doesn't have time to kick back and enjoy things more.

The fact that you recognize this, speaks volumes about your predisposition in regard to recognition of "self."

Bowing in homage to the Lotus Sutra: :bow:

http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/

[Anastasia]

Women R-U-L-E! go chickies!!!;)

[moyashi]

The fact that you recognize this, speaks volumes about your predisposition in regard to recognition of "self."

:note:
I'm missing something ???
I'm really tired tonight also being 2am doesn't help.
Could you explain more?

[Hoyu]

Well... You said that you don't take the time to "kick back and enjoy things more," and in so stating, you imply that you recognize the importance of doing so. This proves to me that you do have quite a bit of awareness in regard to your own condition, and how to improve it.

[moyashi]

This proves to me that you do have quite a bit of awareness in regard to your own condition, and how to improve it.

:cool:

I realize that I have to make changes yet I can't see my own faults.
I'm always willing to change and try to become a better person, I just need to be able to see that my current way is wrong.
:o

Aspects outside of my personality I have a much better grasp on my faults and it's only laziness, in a sense, and possibly a lack of resolve that is stopping me. I'm not so to say lazy since I'm always active --- hmmm, maybe I'm to spread out in my activities ... oh well.

Thanks for expanding on that comment!

[Anastasia]

I hear ya on the laziness part, i am soooo out of shape and lazy its not even funny. but now i walk to and from school everyday, which is a half hour walk and if i want to go down town to the water or mall its an hour walk or more. so i 'm getting better but i still sit on my butt a lot. but its really hard to change habbit, someone told me that its lack of motiviation......is that it? i feel myself to be very motivated especially when it comes to school and volunteering....hmmm.... i guess i just like to kick back and relax after a very hard day at school, which is normal....i guess... :)

[deborah gormley]

I suppose Zen takes a totally focused indivual to accept and appreciate the lessons and tasks apparently used by the buddist people, I have read these posts and I still cant seem to get focused on the images and sounds(links) this is probably due to my lack of knowledge and discipline, I cant apologise for this because I feel like an alien, intruding in a religion that I had no call to investigate but curiosity has made me enter the world of Zen breifly and I must admit its truely a different perspective on live than what I am accustomed too, living a live of total self awareness and discipline just simply is not me,(I mean that as a compliment to all of you above) my personality and attitude to my own live is what makes me unique, its my own thoughts and not "what I should think" my own path in life and "not where I nessacarily should be" :bow: but for those of you who can take and deal with the path in live that requires total and unwavering control, discipline, self-awareness ect , I have only admiration for you, I resect it, hold it in my thoughts as a powerfull religion and a tough one:bow:
(please exuse my spelling, I lack discipline there also)

[moyashi]

@ laziness
Laziness for me is not picking up something that has fallen on the floor actually. I take the elvator instead of the stairs out of laziness? or just because I lack the discipline to keep fit?

haha, lot's of things to take into consideration. Sloth is probably much worse? Can anybody fill in the Catholic images involved here? I've never been much to keep up or studied on the Bible.

@ Debs
My own opinion here.
Hmm, don't let the strenuous discipline scare you off. My simple understanding of Taoism and Buddhism is that essentially you lead an "Aware" Christian life. So, by trying to the best of your ability to follow the Lords words you essentially are doing the same as many Taoist and Buddhist.

Zen, I've always thought of as a way to train yourself further and more rigorously. Kakuzen should be able to correct my mistakes.

Cheer up and don't worry :D

[Hoyu]

Dear Deborah,

I understand that living a life of total self-awareness and discipline is not what you are interested in, but a really interesting thing about Zen is that we come to realize that none of us actually live a life of total self-awareness and discipline. Little by little we come to be more mindful in our daily lives, it's not a forced effort that becomes militaristic in it's regiment. Sure... I sit in zazen for about 30 minutes in the morning, and 30 minutes in the evening, but I don't spend my whole day in total and unwavering control, discipline and self-awareness.

And you might have noticed my personality in some of my writings here. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good personality, but Zen people don't walk around like zombies I assure you. And Zen is not really a religion either. We're not worshiping anything. It's just a lifestyle. Or it could be compared to brushing your teeth. You do it 2 - 3 times a day and reap the benefits along the way.

Perhaps I have given you the wrong impression about Zen... sorry about that. Maybe it would be better to visit a Zen Master in person, and ask her/him what the big deal is about Zen. There are only five places you can do this in N. Ireland. The cool thing is that even if Zen still sounds unattractive to you once explained by a Master, the dojo may serve as the sort of Japanese hub in your area, and they will more than likely offer a lot of cultural festivities with yummy Japanese food.

Cork Zen Dojo
19 North Main St.
CORK
Ireland
Contact: Fergus Galvin
Tel.: 353-21-4662917
E-mail: irish_zen@hotmail.com
Internet site
Denomination: Japanese Soto School
Lineage: Taisen Deshimaru
Teacher: Alain Liebmann
Affiliated to: A.Z.I.; Galway Zen Dojo; Dublin Zen Dojo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper Pipe Zen Group of Dublin
32 Collins Avenue, Killester
DUBLIN 5
Ireland
Contact: Brendan Breen
Denomination: Korean Chogye Order
Lineage: Seung Sahn
Affiliated to: Kwan Um School of Zen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dublin Zen Dojo
11 North Great Georges St
DUBLIN
Ireland
Contact: Mary
Tel. : (+35) 01-8730944
Denomination: Japanese Soto School
Lineage: Taisen Deshimaru
Teacher: Alain Liebmann
Affiliated to: A.Z.I.; Galway Zen Dojo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galway Zen Dojo
Bridge Mills O'Connell St.
GALWAY
Ireland
Contact: Alain Liebmann
Tel. : (+35) 091-529484
Internet site
Denomination: Japanese Soto School
Lineage: Taisen Deshimaru
Teacher: Alain Liebmann
Affiliated to: A.Z.I.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Limerick Zen Dojo
Punches Cross
LIMERICK
Ireland
Contact: John Egan
Tel. : (+35) 061+357118

[deborah gormley]

@ Kakuzen:bow: "I'm impressed!, that was a wonderful jesture , I will check out the details you have left for me, and thank-you! :bow: I dont beleive that your-self or any-one else has mislead me in the facts of Buddisim, I beleive it was my interputation of the facts, but now I'm a little "Wiser".

@ moyashi, :note: trying to the best of your ability to follow the Lords words hmm now that sounds just so familiar to me, that maybe my words of "I feel like an alien, intrudeing in a religion" are really to strong and like you said, its a training of ones mind, :bow:

[deborah gormley]

@ sloth

well it as seen as one of "Seven Deadly Sins" and that scares me sooo much! its beleived to be discribed as " a desire for ease in life", a slothful person will not carry out "Gods" deeds because of the effort it would entail ect, how-ever it becomes a deadly sin at the point of slowing down and causeing a halt to the energy that "God" so graciously gave us, its a physically lazy and unwilling person that can only be deemed this title, but most people slow down naturally due to old age, or illness this is not considered a sin at all thats just a natural accurance,oh! I'v read it some where that the punishment for a slothful person in the after life is "thrown into a snake pit":eek: :eek:

[moyashi]

@ sloth
"thrown into a snake pit" probably to make those folks dance and move around a bit.

Hmmm, so a couch potato would qualify as being slothful. ouch that's scary. Thank goodness I even use my WC time wisely ... hehe

[Hoyu]

Deb: It's my pleasure. I would be interested to hear what Japanese-Irish Zen is like. Please let me know if you do decide to follow up on any of the leads I have offered.

"Just don't do something, sit there" - unknown author

[Anastasia]

ooo....i'm a very bad person for religion, i would rather learn about world religions and experiment than stay in my own (Christianity) i dont go to church and i do believe in God, yet i dont its hard to explaine, but the world of science has taken me over and i like to have substancial proof...(we learned all about the Scientific Method and what not) But dont get me wrong i still believe, i just need proof for somethings... but Zen interested me because i dont hear every five seconds that i'm "damned to a life in Hell" that people who are different (gays and lesbians) are damned to hell, (that really bothered me because my aunt and cousin are gay)...and one thing i hate the most is the past of religion. the murder and lying in the name of God just sickend me
**** I really hope that i haven't offended anyone, this is only MY opinion and shouldn't be taken as an insult. Its just the way i view things ****:bow:

[Hoyu]

Well... I'm not trying to convert anyone here. That would be impossible because, as I had stated, Zen is more of a lifestyle than a religion. Don't get me wrong. Zen definitely is an offshoot of Mahayana Buddhism, but we don't participate in worshiping of a god, deity or deities. We just sit and watch our breathing. And there's nothing heretical about this by any religious standards. You can be a Christian, Muslim or Jew and still practice zazen. Or you could be an Atheist and practice zazen. Straight or gay... Zen is kind of like brushing our teeth... anyone can sit in zazen regardless of their sexual preference, cultural or religious backgrounds.

[Anastasia]

so what religion do you follow personally? you've probably already said that but here is my lack of noticing detail... i dont even know if i have a religion,... i'm more like a stray that cant find a home. i think the church is too much like ..um say the white house, there is way too much politics in it for me, its not about god anymore..am i the only one whos noticed that? (i hope not)
tell me all you can about your religion, i'm keeping my mind open to absolutly everything :)
and anyone can tell me about thier religions (i already know about christianity and catholism) (sorry about any miss spelled words, thats probably why i'm doing so badly in English....:o )

[Hoyu]

I guess I consider myself to be more of a spiritual person than I do religious person because I don't really worship anything, and the question of if there is, or is not a God, has never been an issue for me. So I'm not really an Atheist, but I'm not a Theist either. I guess I'm more of an Agnostic when it comes to religious issues.

I just try to be the best person I can be, I try to help others in any way that I can, and try not to hurt anyone along the way. My idea about spirituality is not to look for absolution from sin, but to I try to learn from my own mistakes. Zen is really good this way because it definitely affords you the opportunity to introspect, yet without harsh and critical judgment.

:bow:

[Hoyu]

Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening ~ by Stephen Batchelor: Click here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573226564/104-1139689-7382309)

Buddhism: The Religion on No-Religion ~ by Alan W. Watts: Click here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1882435192/qid=1037459738/sr=1-48/ref=sr_1_48/104-1139689-7382309?v=glance&s=books)

[Anastasia]

I really like the idea of just living my life and not worrying about going to hell for every little thing i do.
I guess i dont worship anything either, i dont go to church anymore and i dont pray, i just exsist. i go about my life trying to help others also in anyway that i can. and i'm pretty resistant to pain so i dont usualy get hurt. I still have strong moral values thats for sure ^_^
oh just a question, could Zen help one to study to thier fullest? i'm having such a hard time staying focused on what i need to study and i notice that i'm not fully understanding, no matter how many times i go over it doesnt stick. could Zen help my consentration in my studies?

[Hoyu]

It has been my experience that the regular practice of Zazen (sitting meditation) definitely is conducive to increasing my ability to remain focused and in full concentration.

I would suggest you begin by spending about 15 minutes in the morning in Zazen. You can refer back to the lectures given by Taitaku Pat Phelan for instruction on how to practice Zazen properly.

http://www.intrex.net/chzg/talklist.htm

[Anastasia]

Thank you ^_^ i hope my poor neglected body can handle getting up 15 mins earlier :p

[Hoyu]

Think of it as mental hygiene. If we were to calculate how many minutes we spend everyday practicing physical hygiene like brushing our teeth, bathing, hair care, etc, etc... and then ask how much time we actually spend each day on exercises that assist with our mental health... it should become quite obvious how neglectful we really are.

I suggest that waking up fifteen minutes earlier each day will prove to be incredibly beneficial for you, if you use this time to practice Zazen. You might begin with bathing and brushing your teeth because it assists with circulation and waking up. Then before you do anything else to get ready for your day, find a place to sit in Zazen for fifteen minutes.

Let me know if you have any specific challenges while sitting in Zazen and I will do my very best to assist you.

:bow:

[Anastasia]

i think i'm still trying to get a handle on it ^_^
i will try as soon as i get over strep throat, i get up at 6:15AM everyday to begin with and i need all the sleep i can get till i'm all better :)

[Hoyu]

Yes... definitely get over your strep throat... but while you lay there in bed... you could count your breaths.

Inhale thinking the number 1, then exhale thinking the number 2, inhale thinking 3, exhale thinking 4, etc. up to 10 and then start over again.

Zazen when ill can be quite enlightening.

I assure you!

Get well soon... :bow:

[Anastasia]

Thank you ^_^
I'll have to try that tonight!:)

[Hoyu]

By relaxing the body and calming the mind, meditation seeks to alleviate the harmful effects of tension and stress--factors that are known to aggravate a number of medical conditions. Although meditation has its roots in Eastern religious practices, its health benefits are independent of its spiritual aspects. Each practitioner can bring his or her own beliefs and world view to the meditative experience.

Meditation has measurable effects on the pattern of electrical impulses flowing through the brain. Studies with an electroencephalograph (EEG) show that it boosts the intensity of the alpha waves associated with quiet, receptive states to levels not even seen during sleep. Other studies show increased synchronization of brain waves between the two hemispheres of the brain during meditation, lower levels of stress hormones, and improved circulation. Levels of lactic acid, a potential by-product of tension and anxiety, drop after meditation. When practiced for an extended period of time, meditation has also been found to reduce oxygen consumption, slow the heart rate, and bring down blood pressure.

Devotees of meditation often claim that it improves their memory and other mental abilities, protects them from disease, and reduces their use of alcohol and drugs. Some studies have found that long-standing practitioners (those who've been meditating for several years or more) tend to make fewer doctor's visits than non-meditators. Other studies have found that meditation can reduce or reverse cardiovascular disease; improve the ability to cope with chronic illness; reduce anxiety, panic, and fear of open spaces; and relieve mild depression, insomnia, tension headache, irritable bowel syndrome, and premenstrual syndrome. One study of mindful meditation found that it reduced the rate of relapse in those with emotional disorders. Meditation has even been found to increase the longevity of healthy older adults.

Pain relief is another of meditation's more successful applications. While it can't completely eliminate discomfort, it does help people cope by reducing their tension and anxiety. For instance, the deep breathing exercises taught in childbirth classes are a form of meditation that helps women cope with the pain of labor and delivery.

Source: http://health.yahoo.com/health/alternative_medicine/alternative_therapies/Meditation/

[deborah gormley]

just reading these last few posts has brought back a memory of a simple kind of medetation that I once particpated in, I was still attending school so it was maybe 1984 (ish) all my class students and myself went on a religious retreat with the teachers and a few well respected clergy men, the time spent in meditation was maybe a total of 15 mins, the scene was as follows,,,,
white gowns had to be worn(in our minds) we where talked threw a beautyful gardens of white flowers,on the right hand side a wooden bench, on the left hand side a large pond with lilys and sun rays reflecting off the ponds surface,,, I cant remember much more but the garden was the focus, we where all instructed on what we seen in fine detail and I found the detail,of small pebbles,wet or dry quite facinating it was so intense but relaxing, I remember the coldness then the instruction on how to control your body tempreture by allowing yourself to send warm blood to your waist, then thighs, then legs, then finally feet, I have remembered this event very fondly, and will no doubt spent a while thinking of this and wondering why I have never done this again since!!:bow:

[Hoyu]

Yes... that sort of guided meditation is very popular in the West. That Christian clergymen would be teaching such a thing at a religious retreat for children is a bit surprising, truly wonderful nonetheless.

There have been several ecumenical efforts between Buddhists and Christians in order to find some middle ground that everyone can agree upon. Meditation/Prayer just happens to be one of these subjects.

If you have found that the Zen Dojo's in N. Ireland are just too far away from you, yet you still want to learn about Zazen meditation, then I would be more than happy to try to assist you in anyway I am able. But just remember what I quoted from Brad Warner, "Let's face it. Zen is boring."

:bow:

[Hoyu]

Sunday Times, November 03, 2002, Contributed by Liam Clarke

Belfast, Ireland -- VETERANS of the Troubles in Northern Ireland are seeking the help of Zen Buddhists in facing their traumas.

Loyalist and republican former prisoners are among those who have signed up to join the Black Mountain meditation centre, which is due to open in Belfast later this month. The Buddhist retreat is the brainchild of Paul Haller, the Zen Abbott of San Francisco and a native of Belfast's Falls Road. Frank Liddy, a north Belfast community health worker who has been a practising Buddhist for the past seven years, is also behind the scheme.

Haller, who left Belfast 30 years ago to become a Buddhist monk in Thailand, but later moved to San Francisco, said: "I feel a great commitment to helping Belfast. I have been coming back every year for the last five years, and I've found that many community programmes are trying to build peace in Northern Ireland. We feel that the Buddhist training offers a unique contribution to facilitate that, not to replace what is already there, but as a complement to it."

The Black Mountain centre will be the second Buddhist centre to open in Belfast. At the end of the summer the Potala Buddhist centre opened its doors in Belfast Donegall Pass, a working-class community where it is offering meditation classes under Kelsang Drolkar, an Irish-born nun.

The steering committee for the new Zen centre includes Liddy, a former Sinn Fein activist, and Dougald McCullough, an executive committee member of the Progressive Unionist party, the political wing of the UVF. David Ervine, the PUP leader, is not a Zen enthusiast but supports the project. "If they can contribute anything to help us through our pain, they are welcome," he said.

Source: http://www.buddhistnews.tv/current/eire-zen-N.php

[Anastasia]

i'm really sorry i'll come back some other time, i'm just sick as a dog right now and i figured i'd just say why i haven't been on in a while. i'm now fighting two infections so i dont knwo when i'll be on next
:bow: thanx for everything

[Hoyu]

I hope you get well soon my friend.

:sick: :atchoo: :sick:

I look forward to hearing from you again here at J-ref.

:happy: :) :clap:

[thomas]

Wishing you a speedy recovery too, Anastasia!

[moyashi]

Get well eh!

[Anastasia]

Thank you everyone ^_^ i am much better now and i'm back!
i'll get my flu shot soon so i dont get sick again :) it is very cold here....very very cold...we are far into the negatives here...brrrrr!

[cowo]

Kakuzen

Konichiwa
I had to bring this thread up again, simply because i spent the last few hours by reading through it and the other links you posted. The Brad Warner page for instance is really great.
But now my head is spinning. For me reading English still needs concentration and i spent mine for today.
I just started to read Dogen Zenji's Shobogenzo yesterday, so i did a search on "Dogen" in this forum in case that something interesting might appear. So i was a bit suprised and totally grateful to find someone with your level of knowledge.
:bow:
I have to admit that all my understanding about Buddhism comes from books i read. Because i know no Buddhist in person. So i'm really glad to finally talk (write) to one. :)
The first book i read as a kid about Buddhism was some kind of introduction i found at our public library. It was from DT Suzuki ki and i can't remember the title. Althoug i read it twice, i didn't really understand much of it. But i think i got the idea of it / got a sense how Buddhism feels. It's hard for me to explain, even in German. :(
After that i kind of sticked to it and read more books. But it's hard to find any good ones. In German even harder. (There is so much crap on the market) Maybe you can recommend some?

I followed one of the links (http://www.iijnet.or.jp/iriz/zen_centers/centers_data/germany.htm) you posted before and was amazed how many Zen-Centers exist in Germany. Can you explain some of the differences between the denominations, lineages and affiliations?

Thanks for your help
cowo

p.s.: I haven't practised Zazen yet, but (after i read this thread) i will try. :)

[Hoyu]

Hi COWO,

In Germany you will find that the vast majority of Zen Centers are of the Japanese Soto Zen denomination. You will also find a fair amount of Japanese Rinsai Zen and combination Soto/Rinsai Zen traditions as well. The next largest concentration appears to be the Korean Chogye Son tradition, followed by the Vietnamese Ch'an tradition and even one Chinese Ch'an tradition has established a center in Germany.

The differences between all these different traditions would be difficult to list, and even more challenging to discuss in detail. Perhaps if you were to ask specific questions about the traditions in accord with your likes and dislikes, or if you were to pick the closest Zen Centers to your home and ask me about their traditions, then I could be of some assistance to you.

In Gassho, Kakuzen

[˜r”’–VŽå]

I am quite interested in Zen and have read quite a lot about religion and philosophy of religion particularly. I really admire certain aspects of Zen practice and thought, but feel that there are certain darker elements that are not really talked about too much in the west. Zen has been linked to militarism and imperialism, and several of the roshi who came to America have quite dodgy backgrounds. I find that in America specifically Zen is quite closely associated with environmentalism and more liberal personality types. I find that people like this I know like this in Japan are often Christians. It is kind of an odd switch. Western hippies are Buddhists, Japanese hippies are Christians! Its all good I suppose. There was a zen temple near the town where I lived in Iwate-ken for three years and the main priest guy invited me to do zazen with him but i never did. we drank together several times. that is another weird thing about western zen people...they are often vegetarians, dont drink, etc....which is definitely not the case in Japan. Maybe the west has preserved the true nature of zen. Ill be going back to Japan soon, so I will look more into things again. I think it is really essential for people getting into zen to understand that it is not some super pure thing. It has just as much baggage as any other religion or set of philospical ideals. that doesnt mean one should not do it, though. you have to use your own judgement.

peace,

˜r”’–VŽå

[Mandylion]

I would say America and the west has made its own cult of Zen in many respects. Like you mentioned, there are enough differences to almost be able to draw a line between Japanese Zen and American Zen. One is not more pure than the other though, it all depends on who you ask. Both cultures approach zen through different sets of conditioning. I would say that western zen buddhists still carry a lot of the Judeo-Christian concepts of rigid doctrines (a penchant for law and organization, absolutes) while Japanese zen buddhists (a minority sect in Japan) approach the same thing from a more flexible stance, also dealing with a long interaction between other sects of Buddhism (Jodo, Tendai etc). But, as long as they take you to the same place, it doesn't matter which style you choose.

There is also a trend in the west to read zen into various Japanese arts, but that is a different thread.

[Anastasia]

Maybe you guys can help me out here, my boyfriend is very religious and his father is a minister i was born christian, but i am such a curious person i want to learn about world religions but he thinks its wrong! i told him i like to read about buddhism and he told me i shouldn't because its wrong and that i could be influenced to change religions. i dont understand how buddhism is so wrong i dont think it is but since its not christian, since its different its wrong..if i have another discussion with him about religion again i think i'm going to freak! i just dont know what to do with him.. i mean this is me i like to learn a lot of new things and he's so narrow minded and i have such a broad view on the world its really starting to annoy me.
maybe you could give me some sites that i could maybe (if i beg) get him to look at
thanx

[Iron Chef]

That's an interesting dilemma you pose because you raise two noteworthy points:

1) "my boyfriend is very religious" followed by...
2) "he's so narrow minded and I have such a broad view on the world"

This is unfortunately a fault I have found in many of my own friends as well who claim to be comfortable with their respective faiths. Personally, I never understood this. If someone is so secure in their beliefs and hold absolute conviction for what they believe as "truth" then why are they always the first ones to get defensive and sweepingly dismiss anyone else's belief system? But I digress...

Anyways, as a former Seminarian who has since radically changed (yes, I actually spent two years at St. Lawrence Seminary thinking that was my calling... don't get me started 8-p) I don't really know what advice to give you. I think the issue may stem from the fact that you may be more of a spiritually-oriented Christian as opposed to your boyfriend who is more "religious" per se and in line with the fundamentalist line of thought (accept Christ as your saviour and be saved or burn in Hell for all eternity, blah blah, etc. etc.).

I may be way off base here but I guess you guys should really just sit down, talk things over, work it out somehow, and hash out your differences. There is nothing wrong with two people being together who have differing opinions on faith as long as both people are open-minded and flexible in what they believe. When one person tries to dictate (as in your boyfriend's case) what the other should believe or attempt to validate or disprove the other person based on the tenets of their faith, then you have a problem.

[Hoyu]

Hi Anastasia,

The paradox is that while he is judgmental about other religions, you are harboring judgmental feelings about him being judgmental. While I can appreciate you wanting the ones you love to share in your open-mindedness, the fact is that not everyone is at that level. This is why as Buddhists we need to know when it is appropriate to compassionately practice patience and tolerance in order to illuminate wisdom.

In cases such as these the very best we can do is to plant the seeds, it is up to them how soon the seed will grow to bear fruit. Showing your boyfriend websites on Buddhism and hoping that he gets the Buddha’s message may only exacerbate your situation. Buddhists are not typically evangelical. We don’t go out trying to convert everyone to our religion. What we do is simply practice the Buddha’s teachings to the best of our ability, and people are naturally drawn to Buddhism through our example. If you really want to teach your boyfriend about Buddhism then I would suggest that you first practice it yourself. Through your actions alone, may he come to appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha.

Here is a website, not for your boyfriend to study, but for you to study:

About Buddhism (http://buddhism.about.com/ ) < click here

(If you study all the information found in the links located on the left hand column of the "About Buddhism" webpage, then you will know more about Buddhism than most Buddhists do. All you will have to do then is to apply it to every aspect of your daily life. No easy task, I assure you.)

Respectfully, Kakuzen

[Anastasia]

Thank you both for your oppinions. I know i'm young but i like to think i'm very understanding of other people. but i think i have a lot of learning to do, i'm not impatient with him i'm frustrated that he feels he needs to save my soul...he doesn't TRY to stop me he sure lets me know that he doesn't approve though and the fact that he's not accepting me for who i am and what i like bothers me cause its not like i'm telling him what he should believe. i'm happy that he believes so strongly i think everyone should have something to believe in and that its of their own choice and that they shouldn't feel threatened by eternal damnation if they dont choose the right religion.
thank you for the site i hope i get time to look at it but i'm over my head in homework and readings. but i'll try ^_^
hopefuly my sanity will beable to survive this relationship :p

[Hoyu]

I look forward to speaking with you more about this when you find the time.

Respectfully, Kakuzen