te form of verb+kimasu

[Yamatoblue]

:note:
Hi everyone.
I was wondering, what are the meanings of words when we add kimasu to them?
for example:
Mottekimasu 持ってきます(have something?)
yattekimasu　　　　　　やってきます(do something?)
increase　　　　　　　　　増えてきます(increase something?)
Is there a rule to how one can know what the kimasu means within a word?

Also,ＴＥＦＯＲＭ＋ＭＯＲＡＵ（もらう)
増えてもらう(fuetemorau)
してもらう(shitemorau)
やってもらう(yattemorau)

What do these kinds of words mean?
THanks!

[mdchachi]

They pretty much mean what they say.

motte kimasu = hold/carry + come --> bring
yatte kimasu = do + come --> do and come (back)
fuete kimasu -- I think you're mistaken about this one, fueru is an intransitive verb so I don't think it makes sense to say this

In general you use kimasu to indicate that you'll go do the action and return. Like in English, you would say, "I'm going to run out to the store" which infers that you will be gone for a short time and come back. In Japanese, you say, "mise ni itte kimasu." Similarly, in English you might say, "I'm going to start the coffeemaker, be right back." in Japanese you can say "coffeemaker wo tsukete kimasu."
In addition, you use this form to indicate some continuation of action. Like to say, "I've started to understand Japanese" you'd say "nihongo wo wakatte kimashita."

te + morau means receiving of the action. Again, I don't think fuete-morau would work. You'd want to use fuyashite-morau (received an increase). shite-morau, received the doing. yatte-morau means the same as shitemorau.
Examples: tegami wo okutte morau --> I'll have (him) send a letter. You can use the above form as well. kongetsumatsu madeni hiragana wo oboete morau --> [I'm] going to have you memorize hiragana by the end of this month.

[Glenn]

There is no problem with using くる with intransitive verbs. It has the meaning of "begin" or "gradual change of some state." For example, you could say だんだん暖かくなってきた (It gradually got warmer). いく is also used this way with similar meaning, but the nuance is slightly different. Check out this thread on -てくる and -ていく (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/message/message.cgi?thread=jpnE9goXGscE6Uq_L09.html) to see it explained better than I have.

Also, I don't think that transitivity matters for ‐てもらう either, because it means to get someone to do something for your sake (TYJ Message board (http://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/message/jpnE1aE11DTE1a1kNhg.html)). So you could say やっと来てもらったな (I finally got you to come for my sake).

[PaulTB]

They pretty much mean what they say.
Except when they don't.

fuete kimasu -- I think you're mistaken about this one, fueru is an intransitive verb so I don't think it makes sense to say this
Google says not mistaken. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%E5%A2%97%E3%81%88%E3%81%A6%E3%81%8D%E3%81%BE%E3 %81%99)

The other use of てきます is in indicating something has started to do something. e.g. 聞き取れる情報量が増えてきます。

http://www.intl.chubu.ac.jp/komori/kokeshi/No9.html

[EDIT]
Sheesh Glenn, couldn't you have posted a little slower :D

[Glenn]

Lol, sorry. :sorry: :D I like to take my time with these things to make sure that I have them as accurate as possible. :cool:

[PaulTB]

Lol, sorry. :sorry: :D I like to take my time with these things to make sure that I have them as accurate as possible. :cool:
Well so did I - but we still tied at exactly 05:38 ... :p

[Elizabeth]

Yatte iku (to manage, get along) is also not literally translatable as starting or beginning in a direction such as "natte iku", per this message in which he's saying more or less "I'm not sure to what extent it can be said to be comfortable, but such a salary grade may somehow be temporarily manageable....?"

新しく社会人なった人の平均月収が２０万円位、ボーナスで年４０万円位
として年収２８０万円。税金や健康保険を引くと手取り で２４０万円位です。
気持ちがいいというのが、どの程度かわかりませんが、 とりあえずこの位あれば
なんとかやっていけるのではないでしょうか？


And another "来る" as an auxiliary verb example, which only makes sense to me at least as "comes to me asking favors" since there was nothing really explicit in the original translation regarding temporality, continuation or change of state.... I'm not quite sure how you'd handle "Because I'm skilled, my weak-minded supervisor has begun coming to me asking a lot of favors." :? Maybe "watashi ni yoku onegai wo shite kihajimete kimashita" although I'm sure there's something more natural....

私は有能ですから、自信のない上司は私によくお願いを してきます

[mdchachi]

> Google says not mistaken.

Yeah yeah so sue me. After I had slept on it, I realized it would work for intransitive verbs in the second sense. When I said that I was thinking of the first sense of the word -- that of coming. Not continuation of action.

> The other use of てきます ...

I explained that in my original post.

As for te-morau, I was thinking of person-to-person interaction. Sorry about that.
You can't have somebody fueru for you. But you can have (receive) something fueru'ing.
e.g. usagi ga fuete morau --> [I'm] going to have my rabbits multiply.

Sorry about that. Next time I won't answer these things after midnight!

[mdchachi]

Oh, and one more thing, regarding te+kimasu. It's useful to realize that we have the same non-locomotove use of "come" in English. Like in the wakatte kimasu example, you can think of this as "come to understand." Other examples:

I've come to believe in God --> kamisama wo shinjite kimashita.
It'll be nice when I come to be able to speak Japanese --> nihongo wo hanasete kuru to ii
Of course you can say almost the same thing with nihongo wo hanaseru to ii but that sounds more like "It'd be nice to able to speak Japanese."

[Elizabeth]

It'll be nice when I come to be able to speak Japanese --> nihongo wo hanasete kuru to ii

Would the closest alternate be something more like "Nihongo ga hanaseru (Nihongo wo hanasu) you ni naru to ii" ? :note:

[PaulTB]

Would the closest alternate be something more like "Nihongo ga hanaseru (Nihongo wo hanasu) you ni naru to ii" ? :note:
I agree.

話せてくる is practically non-existant out there in WWW land.

話せるようになる has 16,200 Google hits.

I have the strong impression that -te kuru is just not used with the potential form.

[mdchachi]

I wasn't claiming that it was a common thing to say or the best way to say it. I also agree you ni naru to ii sounds more natural. But we were talking about te-kuru; I believe my example was grammatically correct. There's an example of hanasete kita here: http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/miyaken/diary/eachDayAmerica/2003.8.14.html

[PaulTB]

There's an example of hanasete kita here: http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/miyaken/diary/eachDayAmerica/2003.8.14.html
From 'about 14' results for 話せてきた. That puts it way past 'moderately obscure' (e.g. "ざるをえない"), just slips past dialect (e.g. "いわへんかった") and arrives firmly at 'dubious'.

Besides which I didn't arrive at that conclusion as a complete whim - I first checked several other 'potential -te kuru' vs. 'plain -te kuru' combinations.

e.g.
歩けてくる 1 result
歩いてくる 37,400 results

[mdchachi]

What's your point? Does obscurity make it wrong?

Btw, I only get 60 hits for iwahenkatta. I got 899 for yomete kita and 1520 for yomete kuru so it's not quite as unheard of as you're making out.

[PaulTB]

What's your point? Does obscurity make it wrong?
In a word - yes. That is if [certain short construction] is found extremely rarely then it is best to assume it is unnatural until convincing evidence is found otherwise.

Btw, I only get 60 hits for iwahenkatta. I got 899 for yomete kita and 1520 for yomete kuru so it's not quite as unheard of as you're making out.
As such I stand corrected on 'potential-te kuru', but unbowed on '14 Google hits on 7 mora phrase = dubious'.

[mdchachi]

I don't agree. "Unnatural" or "unused" still doesn't make something grammatically incorrect.

I dare you to try it out in the real world. I happened to try it today. My spouse was telling me about some progress she made in reading English. I said, yomete kure to ii ... hanasete kuru to ii ne then I immediately asked if what I said sounded strange and she said no. The funny thing was, I had asked her about the phrase hanasetekuru the other night and she had agreed that it sounded odd. But if you use it at the right place & time, it works.

[Glenn]

Yatte iku (to manage, get along) is also not literally translatable as starting or beginning in a direction such as "natte iku"...

It should be noted that both やっていく (http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%A4%E4%A4%C3%A4%C6%A4%A4%A4%AF&kind=&mode=0&jn.x=49&jn.y=10) and やってくる (http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/search.php?MT=%A4%E4%A4%C3%A4%C6%A4%AF%A4%EB&kind=jn&mode=0&jn.x=21&jn.y=5) have their own entries in the dictionary.

[Yamatoblue]

another question:
what is nattekara （なってから）　and how is that used?

[PaulTB]

another question:
what is nattekara （なってから）　and how is that used?
te-form verbから in general means 'after verbing'.

e.g.

Mr. A: 日本語は簡単ですね。
Japanese is easy.
Mr. B:それは 「源氏物語」を読んでから言え！
Say that _after_ you've read Genji Monogatari!