James Clavell's Shogun

[canadian_kor]

Any thoughts on this book? :-)

[RockLee]

Hey Kor....what's it about? Maybe I'll go look it up :-)

[Uncle Frank]

I sure loved the movie!

Frank

:blush:

[Glenn]

Wasn't it a mini-series that ran for a week or two back in the seventies? I saw a little of it on the Hallmark channel or something like that a few months ago.

[kirei_na_me]

Yes, Richard Chamberlain was in it.

[Uncle Frank]

My first VCR was an RCA model for $1200, boy have they changed since then! Now I need to get time to put 225 six hour tapes onto DVD's .

Frank

:blush:

[canadian_kor]

Hey Kor....what's it about? Maybe I'll go look it up :-)

It's a book written in the 1970s (over 1100 pages) turned into a TV series. It's about an Englishman who became stranded in Japan with his crew during the Tokugawa period. I've read only 1/3 of it so far. So far very good and gives you a glimpse into Japanese life, politics, and culture during that period.

[Uncle Frank]

already seen the movie, rent it! For it's day, it was really good! I think it was as good as "The Last Samuri"?

Frank

:blush:

[Dan B]

The DVD set came out about 9 months to a year ago and I bought it. The miniseries originally came out around the same time that I moved over to Japan in the late 70s. I liked the series (and still do), but I remember hearing that the Japanese reaction to it wasn't very positive.

It's set about 30-50 (?) years after Jesuit missionaries first arrived in Japan. Blackthorn, played by Chamberlain, is a western navigator (they call him あんじんさん, which I'm to understand means "pilot") who leads the first non-Portuguese trading vessel into Japanese waters. He's an interesting character, but he's no linguist...

For example, after being made a samurai and given a beautiful katana and wakazashi by Lord Toranaga, who is among the most powerful military leaders (daimyo?) at the time, Blackthorn says, "どおも."

Even when I was a kid I figured Blackthorn's response was at least a little informal for such a situation... :p

Dan

[senseiman]

I made the mistake of renting the edited version of the series, which was absolute crap. They cut out so much of it to fit it into a 2-hour tape that none of the story made sense.

I have a personal interest in it because I live right next to the castle they used in the series as "Osaka castle". Its really Himeji Castle.

The story is in large part based on the real adventures of an English seaman named William Adams, who was the pilot of a Dutch ship that washed up off the coast of Kyushu after crossing the globe via the straight of magellan. I kind of dislike Shogun because Clavell for some reason felt it necessary to change all the names and fictionalize some of the events of Adam's life when a re-telling of his actual story would have been much more interesting. Adam's rose form being a fugitive sailor to being one of Tokugawa Ieyasu's most trusted advisors, and was awarded the rank of Hatamoto, which was just below the rank of Daimyou, the local lords who controlled Japan's feudal society. There is a good book called "Samurai William" out there, which has a pretty entertaining portrayal of Adam's life and that of the other English and Dutch traders who first arrived in Japan at the beginning of the 17th century.

[Duo]

It's a book written in the 1970s (over 1100 pages) turned into a TV series. It's about an Englishman who became stranded in Japan with his crew during the Tokugawa period. I've read only 1/3 of it so far. So far very good and gives you a glimpse into Japanese life, politics, and culture during that period.

I read it all, about 3 years ago. Is very good, very detailed, very descriptive. A must have for Japanophiles. There is a very good ninja ambush scene in it.

[DoctorP]

Kor...
I haven't read the book yet, but I saw the mini-series when I was a kid.

If you like that one, pick up a copy of Mushashi. It is about Miyamoto Musashi, one of the most famous swordsmen in Japanese history. In over 60 bouts, he never recorded a loss! It is about 1000 pages, but very addictive and hard to put down! IMHO

:wave:

[okaeri_man]

i love that book! i discovered it in my bookshelf one day (passed down with all the other old books from my parents), and read it everyday, not wanting to sleep, until i finally finished it. and i'm not usually much of a reader...

i read it again since then since it was so good, but there were a few japanese errors in it. actually quite a few :mad: it's shiKATA ga nai, not shigata ga nai damn it! everytime i saw that i corrected it in my book.

Originally Posted by Dan B
He's an interesting character, but he's no linguist...
well perhaps... but by the end of the book he did reach a fairly fluent level - pretty decent considering the short time he was there for.

[TwistedMac]

very good book IMO.

Whoever directed the series had the poor judgement of casting the frail little Richard Chamberlain in a role made for some Sean Connery type guy.

as usual in this type of thing book>film

[Bob in Iowa]

I read the book shortly after it was first published in the mid 1970's, and truly enjoyed every page. Coincidentally, I was living in Japan at the time, which, I am sure, made it all the more interesting, since although I was stationed there in the USAF, I had become immersed in the culture after the first year or so -- being 'one of them boys who went native'.

As is usually the case when a book that one really has enjoyed reading is made into a movie, the imagery on the screen does not compare with that which is conjured in the mind -- such was the case with the mini-series. Also, I echo the opinions of others who have posted in this thread that Richard Chamberlain was a poor choice for the lead role. I do recall that the costumes and scenery of the mini-series were quite pleasing even though some of the acting missed the mark.

--Bob

[AE86]

My wife and I just watched the series again back in the spring. I remember it coming out when I was a kid, and I was not allowed to stay up late to watch it.

I have not read the book so I can't comment on that, however no movie ever does a book justice, even a 10 hour mini-series for a 1100 page book!

Having said all that, I think Richard Chamberlain was a fine choice and I will tell you why. A better actor like <insert your favorite here> would have stolen all the scenes. As it is, you really get a chance to know the Japanese actors and the supporting actors because their characters are not our acted by Chamberlain. And besides all that the story is called "Shogun" not "Pilot" which is why the story abruptly ends with Toranaga (Tokugawa) becoming Shogun.

I do agree with Sensaiman that it should be more historical. There is no sense in changing all the names when the real story is so awesome in the first place.

One interesting note about watching the DVD, is the special features disc. In in one very cool fact is that Yôko Shimada who plays Mariko didn't speak a word of English. All the English she speaks in the film she has no idea what it means! That alone is enough to make me say...job well done!

[layn]

I watched it on TV a couple years ago. Great stories, and unexpected ending.
But that was the best scene of Japanese history in gaijin point of view.
I have never seen a better one after that.

[sadakoyamamura]

The love triangle :winklove: was one of the many things I liked:

Buntaro + Lady Mariko + Anjin-san = :box:

Did you know that aside from the book and the mini-series there is also a Shogun the game version and that a Broadway Musical based on the book was presented at the Marquis Theater in 1990-1991? I don't know how good the game is though...

[Shooter452]

already seen the movie, rent it! For it's day, it was really good! I think it was as good as "The Last Samuri"?

Frank

:blush:

I think that SHOGUN was more historically accurate than was the Last Samurai
especially as far as the details of feudal Japanese culture and--most importantly--in the caste system, regarding gaijin and their position within it.

Blackthorne--the Anjin-san--was raised up to the exalted position of hatamoto by Toranaga-sama (for services rendered and more to come later). He was not made samurai, which was largely a hereditary position which only a Japanese could hold. The catch was the fact that up until the Anjin-san had been made hatamoto, no one holding that position had not first been samurai. When he wore the borrowed daisho no one knew if it was correct or not, and he got away with it...in the book.

Clavel researched his book rather carefully, despite some errors here and there, and there was a historical version of Blackthorne, but I think that the relationship was tenuous.

The story line behind the Last Samurai was much less historically accurate, IMHO. If the two scripts were to be evaluated, Clavel's story would have been historical fiction, but the other would have been classified as historical fanatasy.

What both stories do well is provide a window onto the mysticism that is woven into the warrior ethos of the samurai caste and, in the case of Clavel, the binding threads of obligation that are woven web-like between and around the Japanese feudal lords and their vassal-retainers.

WOW! It laid me out when I read Clavel! I have still not fathomed the depth of that philosophy, and I have read much on it.

My favorite character in SHOGUN was Yabu-sama. Despite being a sadistic brute, he was a side of bushido that I understood. He also showed that despite his treachery he was indeed a man of honor.

I really must get another copy. When my house burned down in 2000, mine was ruined by water damage.

[TwistedMac]

heh, sort of ironic it got damaged by water when your house burned down :p

anyway, it should also be taken in to account that james clavell has experienced the japanese culture first hand under rather extreme circumstances... he was in a prison camp in Japan... was it during the 2nd world war? hmmm... I can't remember...

Noble House, Whirlwind, Gai-Jin and Tai-Pan are also interesting reads by clavell, although none is as good as Shogun, and each is ...less good... than the last, chronologically.

[Shooter452]

Also he wrote King Rat about POW's in Burma. I read that while a patient aboard the USS SANCTUARY in 1969, courtesy of the SEAsia War Games (2d Place participant). Good read, but as with most authors, his books got better with practice. Clavel in my opinion peaked with SHOGUN but that is not to say that his others were not worth reading.

The firemen tell me that most damage in a house fire is by water and smoke. Whatchagonnado?

[TwistedMac]

oh right, forgot about king rat >_<

[phelonious]

the book's absolute fantasy. an essentialist's dream of something that never was.

[gokarosama]

I take issue with "Phelonious's" statement. How, pray-tell, can one place such a dismissive judgment on what is supposed to be historical fiction in the first place? Of course the names are changed and the situations never REALLY happened exactly as they may have occured historically. It's a NOVEL! And based, at least, on a real Westerner and real Japanese, unlike, say LAST SAMURAI, which I also, actually, enjoyed (except the ninja's....insert eyeroll).

It's Clavell's best, by my account. Definitely worth reading, and much more juicy than the miniseries, which I also enjoyed.

[Dutch Baka]

The movie was awsome i think... i liked the girl a lot sexyyyyy ....

i liked the story, and i liked that with every japanese word he said it in english to.... nice learning for japanese also :D ....

great movie..!!! i watched the 9 hours isnt (12....) in 2 days...

[EnzoHonda]

I really enjoyed Shogun, although it got a little too political towards the end. I want to second senseiman's recommendation of "Samurai William." It uses the diaries of various sea-faring Europeans to give a good illustration of what Japan was like (in the eyes of the Europeans, anyway) It's a history book, but it is actually entertaining to read.

[Loyalist]

The book was so good that my school work suffered because i could not stop reading it. Also I bought the DVD series and my schoolwork suffered even more!!! Read the book and watch the movies today people!!Shogun=the cool.

[Ikyoto]

I read the book so many times I wore out five copies so far. And when I took a course in asian hsitory in college I heard about Bill the sailor and after reading that I was truely amazed.

One thing I want is some Japanese people to give their reactions to the book and series!

[Ikyoto]

よこしまだ　is one of the world's greatest faces and her acting is a measure that all otehr actresses should strive to meet.

[deadhippo]

i read it as a teenager
it was a lot of fun but basially a boys hero story that idealises the samurai era
i think any mature adult wouldnt be that interested

[xeo4d]

I got the book a while back and ill be honest it looks a bit daunting. It sounds interesting from what you all said, yet I need to find out if I can fit it in with all the other books I am currently reading. I can't believe I still havent read it.
I wonder how many other people buy a book and never read it, just sitting on their shelves? It makes me feel guilty. :relief:

[nice gaijin]

I read it back in seventh grade and have read it twice again since. I remember going all over to find the miniseries on tape (this was before dvds existed) and finally staying up for two days watching it. I have heard horrible things about the abridged version and never felt compelled to watch it. My brother acquired the dvd box set last year and I watched it again; as most things, it wasn't nearly as good as I remember from when I was a kid.

The only other Clavell novel I've read was King Rat, which I remember being very good, but Shogun remains my favorite. It gave me my first first language lesson and my glimpse into old Japanese culture, both some good and bad aspects. Don't get me started on crap like "The Last Samurai," where Tom Cruise was simply a vehicle to bring the movie to an American audience. I agree that the story of the real sailor would have made a better historical depiction of what really happened, but I think that by instead writing a novel loosely based on William's exploits, Clavell was able to make use of his creative license and take liberties with the story, and didn't have to conform to a singular reality to maintain historical accuracy.

[kellymich]

the book's absolute fantasy. an essentialist's dream of something that never was.

It is a piece of art ...

It is not meant to be completely historically or socialogically accurate.

It gave american audences a chance to see the great Toshiro Mifune and a fine performance by Yoko Shimada ... it also exposed them to the japanese language and a little bit of the culture.

It gave them a small taste of old japan in a way which treated it subject with respect. -- this was rather new for american audiences at the time many of who had only thought in terms of japan as our enemy in world war II.

I think it still stands the test of time and is a very well done film.

[Pwopy]

Wow, just finished Shogun last night. As a fairly slow reader, I spent many-a-night awake until 3am but simply could not put it down. Then I would fall asleep and dream about it. The world he creates seems so real, it was easy to imagine myself it in.

I was not completely satisfied with the ending, however. Yes, the getting-there was brilliant, and there was an obvious climax of sorts (that I won't spoil), but then it felt like Clavell suddenly realized, "Holy Jeez, I'm on page 1,000 already?! Better wrap it up." I guess I really want to know what happens next, and next, and next... and now I never will! :(

By the way...

Blackthorne--the Anjin-san--was raised up to the exalted position of hatamoto by Toranaga-sama (for services rendered and more to come later). He was not made samurai, which was largely a hereditary position which only a Japanese could hold.

Having just finished it, I can tell you that this statement is inaccurate; Blackthorne absolutely was made samurai, and Mariko and others refer to him as such many times.

[Pwopy]

i read it as a teenager
it was a lot of fun but basially a boys hero story that idealises the samurai era
i think any mature adult wouldnt be that interested

While I won't claim to be a "mature" adult, I'm 37, just read it, and thought it was brilliant. I'm a history buff and read mostly non-fiction, and did not in any way feel that this book idealized the samurai era. Considering the sheer volume of popular culture available on the topic of samurai and ninja (mostly idiotic), I think Clavell did one of the most admirable jobs ever in showing what it really was like, and in trying to capture the mindset of the people of that time.

Clavell did a remarkable job in switching "voices" throughout the book, and when you were in Blackthorne's "head" he absolutely condemned the brutality, the violence, and the cheapness of human life. There are numerous instances when Blackthorne is shocked and dismayed, and even devastated (in the case of his cook, for example, those of you who recently read it will know what I'm talking about). On the other hand, when in the "head" of the Japanese characters, he tried to portray how that brutality seemed to make totally logical sense to them.

One of my favorite things about the book is the way Blackthorne changes over time to appreciate SOME of the Japanese culture, such as their emphasis on cleanliness and medicine, and their lack of hang-ups about sex. He thinks back to how disgusting living conditions were in Europe, how misinformed their doctors were. However, he NEVER accepts the brutality or the superiority of the samurai over the commoners. At the end, he learns to politely maneuver the other samurai to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, and that is how he overcomes it. This is very complex stuff, and in 99% of other popular books/movies/etc, he would simply have become "the worst badass of them all," out-brutalizing everyone else.

I think it's particularly poignant that as brave as he was, he never learned to use his samurai swords during the novel; I think that's a metaphor for his never fully accepting their bushido code.

Clavell's continued use of the concept of karma may have seemed less relevant to you when you read it as a teenager. I, for one, am glad I only just got to this book now, as an adult.

[bartbeanie]

:-) i saw the series in school and really like it alot. then i saw it again on cable, the family channel i think. when i watch it again, it seem very old, but i enjoyed watching it again. i read part of the book, but i got bored with it and quit. it is a good book, but it is too long.

[anjinsan]

Shogun the novel was based loosely on the exploits of several real-life characters, fused into one story. Both Mariko and Blackthorne had counterparts in history: Gracia Hosokawa and Will Adams, respectively.

Toranaga, of course, is supposed to be Ieyasu Tokugawa.

Clavell did not just sit down and pen a fantasy. Like other historical novelists he does not (nor--and this is important--does he claim to) tell factually true stories, but represents historical events and personalities to give a sense of history on a metaphorical level. To dismiss the whole novel as a fantasy is shortsighted and unfair.

The 2-hour edited version of the film has added violence and allows you to see Yoko Shimada's breasts. Those are the only additions to a butchered 9-hour full edit (which has minimal violence and no nudity--it was a prime time TV miniseries in the US, after all.)

I highly recommend reading the book before seeing the video, and I recommend seeing the 9-hour version before--sigh--you decide you just have to see Mariko's breasts and rent the two-hour version.

The book has its flaws, but on the whole it's a great read for anyone interested in the beginning machinations of the Edo period. There were some interesting reviews contrasting the film with the movie somewhere online; I'll see if I can find them.

[ArmandV]

I met James Clavell back in 1977-78 and got him to sign my copy of "Shogun." Unfortunately, I misplaced it or it got swiped.

[anjinsan]

By the way, that's Blackthorne in my avatar. :)

[nice gaijin]

I noticed, and your user name is the name given to him by his captors, since "Blackthorne" was too hard for them to pronounce :)

That must have been interesting, Armand. Was it a book-signing or a chance encounter?

[ArmandV]

That must have been interesting, Armand. Was it a book-signing or a chance encounter?

Neither. He was a special guest at a political dinner for a California State Assemblyman I used to work for. Later, maybe about a week or two, I was up in the state capitol in Sacramento and he was there at a party I attended in another assemblyman's office.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I met James Clavell back in 1977-78 and got him to sign my copy of "Shogun." Unfortunately, I misplaced it or it got swiped.
Oh my God, that sucks so bad, dude.

The 2-hour edited version of the film has added violence and allows you to see Yoko Shimada's breasts. Those are the only additions to a butchered 9-hour full edit (which has minimal violence and no nudity--it was a prime time TV miniseries in the US, after all.)
It's a lot like David Lynch's Dune miniseries (not the Sci-Fi Channel one). Both were originally longer, but edited for violence/nudity. The movies were shorter, cut out lots of stuff, but had all the violence (and in the case of Dune, better special effects).

[jonerik]

The DVD containing the bonus material that comes with the set is quite interesting; interviews with the surviving cast members (Yoko Shimada is still gorgeous) and people on the production crew. The American crew members found working in Japan to be incredibly difficult. The Japanese studio cameras were - surprisingly - a couple of decades behind the American ones. The American crew was also a little frustrated by the way the Japanese set builders worked. In the US the set builders build sets to be taken apart easily when the shooting is completed. The Japanese set builders were constructing the sets to last, almost as though they were real houses or rooms, or whatever. On top of that, Japan didn't have nails back then, so the set builders were constructing the sets with period materials; wood pegs and ropes mostly.

[anjinsan]

Japan didn't have nails back then

The Japanese set-builders did reportedly disingenuously remark that they had "never seen" double-head nails, which the US production crew had offered them to speed up set-building. I suspect this was a way of deflecting a conflict so they could continue working in the traditional way.

As Jonerik points out, the Japanese crew insisted on building the sets properly and not as facades. (Would that this same desire for high production values existed in current Japanese TV dramas....)

Japan did of course have nails in the 1970's.

[jonerik]

Japan did of course have nails in the 1970's.
Yes. By "back then" I meant circa 1600.

[Riyko]

I loved this book, i've read it 3 times through and I originally read it for my great books class. I've also seen the mini series and both movies. I love how it shows you the mindset of japan back in the 1600's, the only real thing that never made sense to me was how mariko knew english unless back then they also knew some english.

[Pachipro]

the only real thing that never made sense to me was how mariko knew english unless back then they also knew some english.
If you'll remember, Mariko was a Christian and learned English from Father Alvito who compiled the first Japanese/Portuguese or was it Spanish?)/English dictionary.

She probably also attended ECC or NOVA in the evenings when she was visiting Tokyo.:wave:

[Uchite]

I greatly enjoyed the full week-long series. I have to get it on DVD one of these days. I thought the entire cast was great. Toshiro Mifune is probably my favorite actor in history. He is just so great in any role. He just becomes the characters he plays!

It also shows and makes one think about differences between the East and the West.

I have not read the book, but should. It is so long though!

Was the film ever released in theaters?

[Pachipro]

I have not read the book, but should. It is so long though!
Uchite you must read the book as it is so much better and more in depth than the mini-series in that you really get to understand what each character is thinking. Clavell is a master in that art.
I guarantee that once you begin reading it you will not be able to put it down. Although it is a work of fiction based on a real person it is a must read for anyone even remotely interested in Japan as it gives great insight into the lives of the people and their way of thinking in the Tokugawa era.
Was the film ever released in theaters?
There was a two hour movie released, but it is just a condensed version of the mini-series. I would not recommend seeing the movie.

[Uchite]

Uchite you must read the book as it is so much better and more in depth than the mini-series in that you really get to understand what each character is thinking. Clavell is a master in that art.
I guarantee that once you begin reading it you will not be able to put it down.
Thanks Pachipro! Will do!

Although it is a work of fiction based on a real person it is a must read for anyone even remotely interested in Japan as it gives great insight into the lives of the people and their way of thinking in the Tokugawa era.
Forgive my ignorance and/or lack of memory but who was it based on?
There was a two hour movie released, but it is just a condensed version of the mini-series. I would not recommend seeing the movie.
I'll definitely pass on it then! :-)