~に聞く / いただかない / し / 代表的な詩の題材

[eeky]

Hi,


1.

皮膚科医に聞く
パッチテストの普及を

(newspaper headline)

Translation given: "A Dermatologist's Perspective: Patch tests should be used more widely."

a) Does ~に聞く mean "ask ~" here?

b) Does 皮膚科医に聞く modify パッチテストの普及, or is it a separate statement? I don't really understand how the two parts connect.

c) What is the purpose of を? I guess there is some omitted and implied verb?


2. ･･･患者さんもそのつもりで協力していただかないと。

Translation given: "... and the patient must cooperate with these facts in mind."

(Edited... sorry, I messed up my original question.) Who is the subject of いただかない? Is it the doctor receiving cooperation from 患者さん?


3. それに、みんなに仲間もできるしね。

Translation given: "And, we get each other's company to boot."

This し means "as well as other things", right?


4. 雪は月や花と並ぶ代表的な詩の題材である。

Translation given: "Along with the moon and cherry blossoms, snow is a typical subject of Japanese poetry.

Here it seems that 代表的な modifies 詩の題材, right? But, generally speaking, is AなBのC ambiguous, and could mean either [AなB]のC or Aな[BのC]?

[Toritoribe]

1) a)
〜に聞く is the same to 〜の話を聞く "to hear one's story/opinion".

b)
The latter. The first line is the main title, and the socond one seems the dermatologist's opinion, i.e., the content of the main text.

c)
Right. 進めるべき, 図るべき or like that is omitted.

2)
Yes.

3)
Right.

4)
Right, but that kind of ambiguousness always exists not only in "AなBのC" but also in "AいBのC" or "AのBのC".
e.g.
短い詩の話 --> 「短い詩」に関する話 or 詩に関する「短い話」
彼の詩の話 --> 「彼の詩」に関する話 or 詩に関する「彼の話」

The fact that the more clear-cut expressions exist shows that the writer thinks the readers would be able to get the correct meaning from the context, I suppose.

[eeky]

Thank you.

1. At this post 〜に聞く meant "ask someone", so I suppose we can only tell if it means "hear" or "ask" from context? Does this not sometimes get confusing?

2. Could we also say 患者さんにも...いただかないと or 患者さんからも...いただかないと? Can we omit に/から only because も is used?

[Toritoribe]

1)
Even if it's transtlated to "to ask" or "to hear" in English depending on the context, 聞く is used in those context without ambiguity. I think that that confusion doesn't exist in Japanese sentence/conversation, though we would be aware of the difference in translating process.

2)
Yes, to add に would be more common. The original might be acceptable, or at least comprehensible, but the writer could be confused it with 患者さんもそのつもりで協力してくださらないと.

[eeky]

Thanks, so let's look again at the sentence in the post I cross-referenced above:

おまわりさんに聞かなかったんですか。

In English, "Didn't you ask the policeman?" and "Didn't you hear the policeman?" are really quite different things. Do you mean that in Japanese the two ideas are not separated as they are in English, so the translation could be either "ask" or hear", depending on context?

[Toritoribe]

The 聞く in the example is usually interpreted as 尋ねる/問い合わせる probably because the situation "to hear the policeman" is not so common, but still it can be 話を聞く. "Didn't you ask him?" have the similar ambiguity also in English, doesn't it? It can mean "尋ねる(ask him about something)" or "頼む(ask him to do something)" depending on the context, I think.

[eeky]

Yes, in English "ask" could mean "ask someone about something" or "ask someone to do something". However, the subject of "ask" always initiates the action, whereas the subject of "hear" is more of a passive receiver. So, you could hear the policeman without having asked him anything.

So, one last question about this if I may. In Japanese, do we use 聞く to mean "hear" even when the subject has not requested anything? For example, suppose we are walking down the street minding our own business, and a policeman comes up and speaks to us. Can we use おまわりさんに聞かなかったんですか in that case too, to mean "Did you hear the policeman?" (i.e. did you hear what he said)?

[undrentide]

～に聞く always means "to ask someone".
To say "hear what the policeman said" one would use 聞える rather than 聞く.
聞く is more like "to listen" or "to try to hear" while 聞える is closer to "to hear" (even you do not try to listen).

[Toritoribe]

OK, how do you think about this example, undrentide-san?

お母さんに聞いたんだけど、風引いて寝てたんだって？

お母さんから聞いたんだけど might be more common, but I believe に is also acceptable when the speaker HEARD about the addressee's catching a cold without asking her.

Yes, in English "ask" could mean "ask someone about something" or "ask someone to do something". However, the subject of "ask" always initiates the action, whereas the subject of "hear" is more of a passive receiver. So, you could hear the policeman without having asked him anything.

I mean 聞く/尋ねる and 頼む are completely different in Japanese just as you feel "to ask" and "to hear" are so. But you use the same verb "ask" in those two situations, right?

[eeky]

I mean 聞く/尋ねる and 頼む are completely different in Japanese just as you feel "to ask" and "to hear" are so. But you use the same verb "ask" in those two situations, right?

I'm not sure which two situations you are referring to. I do not exactly understand the range of situations in which those Japanese verbs can be used.

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 ----------

～に聞く always means "to ask someone".

So, in your opinion, the original

皮膚科医に聞く
パッチテストの普及を

literally means "We (or someone) asked a dermatologist...", right?

[undrentide]

So, in your opinion, the original

皮膚科医に聞く
パッチテストの普及を

literally means "We (or someone) asked a dermatologist...", right?

My interpretation without context is
"(we = author/publisher) asked a dermatologist (for his opinion)"
which is followed by
"(I'd like to call for) diffusion of patch-tests" (for example) which is the dermatologist's opinion.

[Toritoribe]

I'm not sure which two situations you are referring to. I do not exactly understand the range of situations in which those Japanese verbs can be used.

"Didn't you ask him (about something)?" and "Didn't you ask him (to do something)?" in my previous post. The former is translated to 聞く/尋ねる and the latter is 頼む. The same verb "ask" is used in English, nevertheless these two verbs, 聞く/尋ねる and 頼む, are not interchangeable in Japanese. Isn't this similar to "hear" and "ask" in 聞く?

[eeky]

Oh, I see, yes, I guess so...