Jref Kansai Ben thread

[nhk9]

Hi guys,

I've been in Jref forum for quite some time now, and from what I've seen, most discussions are on the standard Japanese, or Hyoujungo. I was wondering if we could have a thread on other hougens, or dialects.

I am recently taking the challenge of learning Kansai Ben, the dialect that is central to the Osaka and Kyoto region. I think the dialect is quite complex, in terms of the number of variations, and the amount of slangs... not to mention that I need to learn new vocabulary for the words that I already know.

First I would like to ask about the conjugation patterns of verbs for honorific speech in Kansai ben. I have read from a Japanese grammar book that -haru is used to make a verb into honorific. The problem with learning this pattern for me is that it seems like there are special cases for using this -haru.

For example, in standard language, "to say" is "iu"
Sometimes, I see that Kansai people would say "iiharu" in place of "ossharu". From this pattern, the haru seemingly follows the renyoukei of the verb, or continuation of the verb (ie. the -masu stem)

However, when using godan verbs, it seems like haru is placed after the "mizenkei", or imperfective form of the verb, as evident by the conjugation of "kaku", to write
kaku -> kakaharu (instead of kakiharu)

The book that I read doesn't exactly tell when to use which conjugation for different verbs. I was wondering if anyone could give me a favour and provide a few more examples for this wonderful grammar form.

nhk9

(background on Japanese grammar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_grammar)

[Miki-san]

The book "Kinki Japanese" by Palter/Slotvse is a good source for learning the Kansai dialect. According to this book, the -haru form is most often heard in situations that fall somewhere between formal and informal. And especially used by women. This conjugation is believed to be derived by shortening nasaru to -haru. In most places in Kansai, the -haru form is conjugated to the -i base of the verb. But in Kyoto and surrounding areas, it's conjugated to the -a base. You can also make a sentence polite by using -harimasu (masu) or by using -harun desu (n desu). And you can use it with -te form to create the -ing form.

Examples:
Doko e ikiharun desu ka?
Doko e ikiharimasu ka?
Doko e ikaharun desu ka? (Kyoto)
Doko e itteharun desu ka?


Hope this helps.
Miki-san

[ToMach]

You should first of all have a very good level in standard Japanese. You don't apply for a job, write a letter, etc in kansai dialect.
Then, don't forget that a foreigner speaking a dialect will sound very strange to Japanese people.
My advice would be : learn to understand the dialectal forms, but don't use them yourself too much.
And don't forget also that Osaka and Kyoto, although both labelled "kansai-ben", are in fact not the same. ex:
Kyoto = yomaharu / Osaka = yomiharu
iehen = "I can't say" in Kyoto / "I don't say" in Osaka (I can't say = iwarehen)

A major difference between standard and Kansai Japanese is the pitch accent : if you speak standard Japanese with the Kansai accent, you will still sound "kansai", and if you speak Kansai Japanese with a different accent, you will sound very very weird.
ex : stand. saKURA / kansai SAKURA
niNJIN / ninjiN
HAru / haRU! (with a falling tone on the ru)

[epigene]

Yes, ToMach is right.

Kansai-ben consists of a variety of dialects for Kyoto, Osaka and other parts of the Kansai region. It is also difficult to express in the written form. You really have to HEAR it because of the subtle differences in accent and pitch by dialect.

I can never imitate a Kansai-ben speaker.

FYI, Nangi-san is from Kansai.

[TheKansaiKid]

Most foreign speakers hear the unique kansai words and think "cool", but I learned most of my Japanese while living in the Kansai area and even when I use very standard Japanese vocabulary I am told that I sound kinda funny because my Accent is so strongly kansai... Imagine a Japanese guy with a slight japanese accent and a strong boston accent mixed together. My advice to you is just study Japanese the Kansai-isms will come to you naturally and they aren't hard to figure out from context you don't "NEED" to learn it it kinda sticks to you over time