nihongo grammar help...

winampman · Jul 6, 2003, 18:15

hey everybody

1. Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada
I often see "tada" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). What does that mean?

2. Genjitsu ni me wo sorashite mo
I often see "mo" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). However, I'm used to seeing it in the middle of a sentence.. like "boku wa Tokyo mo itte". How is it different when its at the end of a sentence? or is it the same?

3. Some more questions... how would "dou demo" and "dore dake" each be used at the beginning of a sentence?

4. Nani mo umare ya shinai
I'm not familiar with the way "ya" is being used here... I usually see it like, "anime ya manga ga suki". How does it work in the sentence above?

If you can answer any of the questions above, I would greatly appreciate it! よろしくお願いします!!!

Elizabeth · Jul 6, 2003, 21:03

Originally posted by winampman
hey everybody

Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada
I often see "tada" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). What does that mean?]

I can't give a terribly coherant grammatical explanation, but in this case "tada" is most likely "gratis" or "free" In other words, someone has lost their personal sense of style that has now become commonplace and widely available. (?)

Genjitsu ni me wo sorashite mo
I often see "mo" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). However, I'm used to seeing it in the middle of a sentence.. like "boku wa Tokyo mo itte". How is it different when its at the end of a sentence? or is it the same?]

I'm not precisely sure how you're intending "me" to be used here -- but "mo" after the gerand form of a verb or "te" form of an "ii" adjective (in the middle or at the end of a sentence) essentially translates to "even if" or "even though." Tabete mo (ii)...."Even if I do eat is it also/still alright," "may I eat?" It is roughly analogous to "demo" after nouns.

Some more questions... how would "dou demo" and "dore dake" each be used at the beginning of a sentence?

Well, you could simply say...."dou demo ii" ("I don't care, anything is fine") or "(hontou ni) dou domo ii koto nandakedo" ((Although it doesn't (really) matter....)).

Examples of "dore dake" might be "Dore dake ii," "Dore dake desu" (I'll just take that much/many, that alone is fine) while you'll occasionally run across hilarious phrases like "Dore dake kaoo!" (You'll probably only (need to) buy this (quantity!) in commercial advertising, for instance.

And someone please correct these overly literal translations.

Nani mo umare ya shinai
I'm not familiar with the way "ya" is being used here... I usually see it like, "anime ya manga ga suki". How does it work in the sentence above?]

I think "ya shinai" here is emphasizing the "not doing" of something, in this case the lack of births (or production?) -- saying in essence something "isn't doing any procreating or reproducing."

tasuki · Jul 7, 2003, 13:17

Not to cut in on Elizabeth's explanations, but again, I think the complete text of where you found your interrogations may be in order. Yet...

Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada

"tada" to mean "free of charge" is usually used with a form of "dearu", such as "da" or "desu", since it's a noun. However, Japanese often use "tada" preceded or followed by a comma to make a counterpoint, in which case "tada" means "however" or "but". That depends on what follows. In this case, I think it means "but".

Genjitsu ni me wo sorashite mo

This sentence structure is not to be mistaken with such as one you cited as an example. This structure is "--te mo" and means "even though/if" or "despite" as Elizabeth said. However, in this case it is used in the negative. For example "Tatoe benkyou shite mo, zenzen oboerarenai" Even if I study, I just can't seem to rememeber. I find that this structure is more often used in the negative (ie "oboerarenai" I can't remember) than the positive, but it depends on the context.

Nani mo umare ya shinai

This "ya" is a spoken form of "wa" or "ga", in certain circumstances, such as the one above. It is not grammatically correct and bears no connection to your example (the anime and manga one).

If these sentences run together, as I think they do, you get something like "I lost my style, but averting my eyes from this reality will not yield anything." or in a less "translation" style "I lost my style and nothing will be gained from running away from the fact."

Elizabeth · Jul 7, 2003, 14:01

Originally posted by tasuki
[B]Not to cut in on Elizabeth's explanations, but again, I think the complete text of where you found your interrogations may be in order.

Yes, most assuredly. These still come across as song fragments, don't they???

Where else COULD such pretentious sentences without any formal punctuation have been cut from I wonder....

Although the "tada" explanation is probably almost equally inexcusable....

tasuki · Jul 7, 2003, 14:09

What do you mean by "Although the "tada" explanation is probably almost equally inexcusable...."?

Elizabeth · Jul 7, 2003, 14:40

Originally posted by tasuki
What do you mean by "Although the "tada" explanation is probably almost equally inexcusable...."?

Well, mine of course....it was the day's first activity after stumbling out of bed at 6:45 this morning,

but I still should have realized the way I had it set up following the verb was ungrammatical.

tasuki · Jul 7, 2003, 14:45

Bah! No sweat. As long as someone picks it up. But you're right, this is probably from a song... It would make sense. Is it morning now, where you are? I cannot wait for my day to be over... Problems over problems, over problems... That's what you get for working with disorganised people...

winampman · Jul 7, 2003, 16:44

どうもありがとうございました.

you guys are lifesavers... lol

Originally posted by tasuki
If these sentences run together, as I think they do, you get something like "I lost my style, but averting my eyes from this reality will not yield anything." or in a less "translation" style "I lost my style and nothing will be gained from running away from the fact." [/B]

Actually... the middle sentence (genjitsu ni me wo...) is from a different song! but thank you anyways.

Originally posted by tasuki
Is it morning now, where you are? I cannot wait for my day to be over... Problems over problems, over problems... That's what you get for working with disorganised people...

:-/... I had to work with a disorganized person as well... for about 9 months...

its over now... but i know how you feel..

tasuki · Jul 7, 2003, 16:57

It's been three years, for me...

Well, the genjitsu me wo... means to close one's eyes to reality, then. You do work hard at this, don't you? I'm impressed. My studies have taken a flying sincee I started working for a Japanese company...

Elizabeth · Jul 7, 2003, 18:15

Originally posted by winampman
[B]どうもありがとうございました.

you guys are lifesavers... lol

Actually... the middle sentence (genjitsu ni me wo...) is from a different song! but thank you anyways.

Winampman,
(sorashitemo)....逸らしても. Which still doesn't make it a sentence with mo at the end

.

And were you aware of this animelyrics forum with a j-pop board and other wideranging discussions of Japanese language/grammar that I believe accepts submitted translations from members as well...

http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/forum_show.pl

tasuki · Jul 7, 2003, 18:32

逸らす wouldn't, but そらす does... In this particular instance, the word is more often used without kanji and means to wilfully avert one's eyes from something or more colourfully to refuse to see something.

So　現実に目をそらしても, Even if I refuse to look at reality...

If it ends in a negative, it can make perfect sense in a lyrical sort of way. As in someone hiding from reality into a fantasy world... Ooops, I may be saying too much about myself here... better shut up...

winampman · Jul 8, 2003, 12:01

Originally posted by tasuki
It's been three years, for me...

Originally posted by tasuki
You do work hard at this, don't you? I'm impressed. My studies have taken a flying since I started working for a Japanese company...

Ah.. well, work is more important than trivial studies... My job is... just being a student... it doesnt pay much money..

Originally posted by Elizabeth
Winampman,

And were you aware of this animelyrics forum with a j-pop board and other wideranging discussions of Japanese language/grammar that I believe accepts submitted translations from members as well...

http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/forum_show.pl

Hmm... it looks very interesting... thanks, Elizabeth!

tasuki · Jul 8, 2003, 12:06

Yeah, well, I'd love to pursue trivial studies for fun instead of working, despite the money aspect...

yummy · Nov 27, 2005, 23:39

I'm Yummy, Japanese teacher in Ibaraki. I'm very interested in your conversatin and question below.

1. Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada
I often see "tada" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). What does that mean?

I think......
First;
I suspect that phrase says "Jibun no SUTAIRU o nakushi cyatta" { (I) have lost my style. (and I fell it is sorry) }. Is not right? If it is, "nakushi cyatta" equal to "nakushite shimatta (or "shimai mashita")".
Japanese make short them like " [VERB-(te)]+chatta", very often. I believe you already know "[VERB-te]+shimai mashita" construction.

Second;
If that phrase is really "Jibun no SUTAIRU o nakushite TADA", I should say this is very strange Japanese. It might be on the halfway of sentence. For example, "Jibun no SUTAIRU o nakushite.(this might be the end of this sentence) TADA･････(another sentence is put after)" {(I) have lost my style. However･････}.

That's all. I hope all of you understand my English....!

Jul 6, 2003, 18:15	#1
winampman Regular Member Join Date: Jul 1, 2003 Posts: 23	nihongo grammar help... hey everybody 1. Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada I often see "tada" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). What does that mean? 2. Genjitsu ni me wo sorashite mo I often see "mo" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). However, I'm used to seeing it in the middle of a sentence.. like "boku wa Tokyo mo itte". How is it different when its at the end of a sentence? or is it the same? 3. Some more questions... how would "dou demo" and "dore dake" each be used at the beginning of a sentence? 4. Nani mo umare ya shinai I'm not familiar with the way "ya" is being used here... I usually see it like, "anime ya manga ga suki". How does it work in the sentence above? If you can answer any of the questions above, I would greatly appreciate it! よろしくお願いします!!!

Jul 6, 2003, 21:03	#2
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,581	Re: nihongo grammar help... Originally posted by winampman hey everybody Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada I often see "tada" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). What does that mean?] I can't give a terribly coherant grammatical explanation, but in this case "tada" is most likely "gratis" or "free" In other words, someone has lost their personal sense of style that has now become commonplace and widely available. (?) Genjitsu ni me wo sorashite mo I often see "mo" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). However, I'm used to seeing it in the middle of a sentence.. like "boku wa Tokyo mo itte". How is it different when its at the end of a sentence? or is it the same?] I'm not precisely sure how you're intending "me" to be used here -- but "mo" after the gerand form of a verb or "te" form of an "ii" adjective (in the middle or at the end of a sentence) essentially translates to "even if" or "even though." Tabete mo (ii)...."Even if I do eat is it also/still alright," "may I eat?" It is roughly analogous to "demo" after nouns. Some more questions... how would "dou demo" and "dore dake" each be used at the beginning of a sentence? Well, you could simply say...."dou demo ii" ("I don't care, anything is fine") or "(hontou ni) dou domo ii koto nandakedo" ((Although it doesn't (really) matter....)). Examples of "dore dake" might be "Dore dake ii," "Dore dake desu" (I'll just take that much/many, that alone is fine) while you'll occasionally run across hilarious phrases like "Dore dake kaoo!" (You'll probably only (need to) buy this (quantity!) in commercial advertising, for instance. And someone please correct these overly literal translations. Nani mo umare ya shinai I'm not familiar with the way "ya" is being used here... I usually see it like, "anime ya manga ga suki". How does it work in the sentence above?] I think "ya shinai" here is emphasizing the "not doing" of something, in this case the lack of births (or production?) -- saying in essence something "isn't doing any procreating or reproducing." __________________ たとえ辛くても、永遠に続く苦しみなどないでしょう。 Last edited by Elizabeth; Jul 6, 2003 at 23:27.

Jul 7, 2003, 13:17	#3
tasuki Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: Location: Tokyo. Country: Quebec, Canada Posts: 365	Not to cut in on Elizabeth's explanations, but again, I think the complete text of where you found your interrogations may be in order. Yet... Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada "tada" to mean "free of charge" is usually used with a form of "dearu", such as "da" or "desu", since it's a noun. However, Japanese often use "tada" preceded or followed by a comma to make a counterpoint, in which case "tada" means "however" or "but". That depends on what follows. In this case, I think it means "but". Genjitsu ni me wo sorashite mo This sentence structure is not to be mistaken with such as one you cited as an example. This structure is "--te mo" and means "even though/if" or "despite" as Elizabeth said. However, in this case it is used in the negative. For example "Tatoe benkyou shite mo, zenzen oboerarenai" Even if I study, I just can't seem to rememeber. I find that this structure is more often used in the negative (ie "oboerarenai" I can't remember) than the positive, but it depends on the context. Nani mo umare ya shinai This "ya" is a spoken form of "wa" or "ga", in certain circumstances, such as the one above. It is not grammatically correct and bears no connection to your example (the anime and manga one). If these sentences run together, as I think they do, you get something like "I lost my style, but averting my eyes from this reality will not yield anything." or in a less "translation" style "I lost my style and nothing will be gained from running away from the fact." __________________ - His arrogance is matched only by his firepower. - La culture, c'est comme la confiture: moins on en a, plus on l'etend. - TANSTAAFL.

Jul 7, 2003, 14:01	#4
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,581	Originally posted by tasuki [B]Not to cut in on Elizabeth's explanations, but again, I think the complete text of where you found your interrogations may be in order. Yes, most assuredly. These still come across as song fragments, don't they??? Where else COULD such pretentious sentences without any formal punctuation have been cut from I wonder.... Although the "tada" explanation is probably almost equally inexcusable....

Jul 7, 2003, 14:40	#6
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,581	Originally posted by tasuki What do you mean by "Although the "tada" explanation is probably almost equally inexcusable...."? Well, mine of course....it was the day's first activity after stumbling out of bed at 6:45 this morning, but I still should have realized the way I had it set up following the verb was ungrammatical.

Jul 7, 2003, 14:09	#5
tasuki Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: Location: Tokyo. Country: Quebec, Canada Posts: 365	What do you mean by "Although the "tada" explanation is probably almost equally inexcusable...."?

Jul 7, 2003, 14:45	#7
tasuki Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: Location: Tokyo. Country: Quebec, Canada Posts: 365	Bah! No sweat. As long as someone picks it up. But you're right, this is probably from a song... It would make sense. Is it morning now, where you are? I cannot wait for my day to be over... Problems over problems, over problems... That's what you get for working with disorganised people...

Jul 7, 2003, 16:44	#8
winampman Regular Member Join Date: Jul 1, 2003 Posts: 23	どうもありがとうございました. you guys are lifesavers... lol Originally posted by tasuki If these sentences run together, as I think they do, you get something like "I lost my style, but averting my eyes from this reality will not yield anything." or in a less "translation" style "I lost my style and nothing will be gained from running away from the fact." [/B] Actually... the middle sentence (genjitsu ni me wo...) is from a different song! but thank you anyways. Originally posted by tasuki Is it morning now, where you are? I cannot wait for my day to be over... Problems over problems, over problems... That's what you get for working with disorganised people... :-/... I had to work with a disorganized person as well... for about 9 months... its over now... but i know how you feel..

Jul 7, 2003, 16:57	#9
tasuki Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: Location: Tokyo. Country: Quebec, Canada Posts: 365	It's been three years, for me... Well, the genjitsu me wo... means to close one's eyes to reality, then. You do work hard at this, don't you? I'm impressed. My studies have taken a flying sincee I started working for a Japanese company...

Jul 7, 2003, 18:15	#10
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,581	Originally posted by winampman [B]どうもありがとうございました. you guys are lifesavers... lol Actually... the middle sentence (genjitsu ni me wo...) is from a different song! but thank you anyways. Winampman, (sorashitemo)....逸らしても. Which still doesn't make it a sentence with mo at the end . And were you aware of this animelyrics forum with a j-pop board and other wideranging discussions of Japanese language/grammar that I believe accepts submitted translations from members as well... http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/forum_show.pl

Jul 7, 2003, 18:32	#11
tasuki Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: Location: Tokyo. Country: Quebec, Canada Posts: 365	逸らす wouldn't, but そらす does... In this particular instance, the word is more often used without kanji and means to wilfully avert one's eyes from something or more colourfully to refuse to see something. So　現実に目をそらしても, Even if I refuse to look at reality... If it ends in a negative, it can make perfect sense in a lyrical sort of way. As in someone hiding from reality into a fantasy world... Ooops, I may be saying too much about myself here... better shut up...

Jul 8, 2003, 12:01	#12
winampman Regular Member Join Date: Jul 1, 2003 Posts: 23	Originally posted by tasuki It's been three years, for me... Originally posted by tasuki You do work hard at this, don't you? I'm impressed. My studies have taken a flying since I started working for a Japanese company... Ah.. well, work is more important than trivial studies... My job is... just being a student... it doesnt pay much money.. Originally posted by Elizabeth Winampman, And were you aware of this animelyrics forum with a j-pop board and other wideranging discussions of Japanese language/grammar that I believe accepts submitted translations from members as well... http://www.animelyrics.com/forum/forum_show.pl Hmm... it looks very interesting... thanks, Elizabeth!

Jul 8, 2003, 12:06	#13
tasuki Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: Location: Tokyo. Country: Quebec, Canada Posts: 365	Yeah, well, I'd love to pursue trivial studies for fun instead of working, despite the money aspect...

Nov 27, 2005, 23:39	#14
yummy Junior Member Join Date: Nov 27, 2005 Posts: 1	Hi! I'm not sure I can explain well, but will try!! I'm Yummy, Japanese teacher in Ibaraki. I'm very interested in your conversatin and question below. 1. Jibun no SUTAIRU nakushite tada I often see "tada" at the end of a sentence (like the one above). What does that mean? I think...... First; I suspect that phrase says "Jibun no SUTAIRU o nakushi cyatta" { (I) have lost my style. (and I fell it is sorry) }. Is not right? If it is, "nakushi cyatta" equal to "nakushite shimatta (or "shimai mashita")". Japanese make short them like " [VERB-(te)]+chatta", very often. I believe you already know "[VERB-te]+shimai mashita" construction. Second; If that phrase is really "Jibun no SUTAIRU o nakushite TADA", I should say this is very strange Japanese. It might be on the halfway of sentence. For example, "Jibun no SUTAIRU o nakushite.(this might be the end of this sentence) TADA･････(another sentence is put after)" {(I) have lost my style. However･････}. That's all. I hope all of you understand my English....!

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