Help with Japanese R's

Nikki · Nov 20, 2002, 07:19

Hello everyone first of all I want to say neat forum. I just joined and was wondering if I could get some help.

I am a college student here in the states and I am just now starting to learn it this year. I do pretty well in class except for my accent. At my university we get daily performance grades in how well we speak in class. Our classes are conducted in all Japanese except for our lectures on Japanese grammar which we have as a different class.

Anyway my problem is that I have real trouble saying the Japanese R's. Ra, Ri, Ru, Re, Ro. I have been practicing and have gone in to see my teacher for help but I still have problems with it a little even though ive gotten a little better recently.

Does anyone have any tips that will help me? Its horrible when you know the language but you just cant get a good grade because you just cant pronounce one part right.

thomas · Nov 20, 2002, 07:25

Hehe, I think a Texan "r" must be pretty close to Japanese pronounciation.

No seriously, I leave the lingual subtleties up to more educated members and just bid you welcome!

Nikki · Nov 20, 2002, 07:34

I find that funny considering I lived in Texas for over 20 years and just now moved to another state to go to school.

chlorph · Nov 20, 2002, 23:49

Hey, Nikki -- I'm from Texas too (o.0) I'm no linguistic expert but...

how about pronouncing the 'r' almost (but not quite) like a 'd'? Da, di, du...?

Hoyu · Nov 21, 2002, 00:17

I got the joke Thomas… because I lived in Texas for nearly a decade, and I know that the Japanese words that are spelled in romanji beginning with an "R" sound nothing like the Texan "R" words.

R's definitely sound more like L's.

ex. Ramen sounds like Lemmon.

The funny thing is when my wife used to say the English word Lemmon, it sounded like Remmen. Somehow R's and L's get all mixed up when English speakers first attempt Japanese, and when Japanese speakers first attempt English.

Nikki · Nov 21, 2002, 05:34

so what is your suggestion? Say R's like L's or D's?

Hoyu · Nov 21, 2002, 23:57

posted by Kakuzen

R's definitely sound more like L's.

Twisted · Nov 22, 2002, 00:50

I agree with Kakuzen. I don't have much knowledge of Japanese, but you can find this R/L problem everywhere in Asia. I've been in Thailand a few times and you have to pronouce the R as an L, because otherwise you won't be able to tell a taxidriver where to go.

Nikki · Nov 22, 2002, 02:24

Well the only problem is its not exactly an L but its not an R either. Its what they call a soft R. Sometimes I can do it ok but usually I cant when im put on the spot in class so it comes out wrong.

Twisted · Nov 22, 2002, 04:36

Sounds to me like an R you have to skip. I reckon you have start to pronounce the R, but just before you actually do that, you drop your tongue and move on to the next syllable. The faster you speak, the easier it is.

Nikki · Nov 22, 2002, 05:18

Hmm. Not really. If you did it that way it would just be a different kidn of messed up accent. Oh well I guess I will just muddle through on my own. Thanks for trying to help everyone.

moyashi · Nov 24, 2002, 16:58

Ok, I teach the reverse. I teach my Japanese students how do "L" and "R" with a US pronunciation.

The "r" and "l" in Japanese are difficult because they are so close in construction that an American will have some difficulty.

The "N" sound in CNN news is a strong placement of the tongue on the roof top of the mouth. With "l" being almost the same with only a slight change in position and shorter length of strong pressure. While the "r" is made by pulling the tongue back into a snake like position.

R/L in Japan are closer to the "L" and "N" sound of CNN English yet ... the big difference the movement of the "R" is introduced.

So .... try doing a "l" sound using a slight snake like pull of the tongue with a light (very light) touch of the tongue to the roof top.

The posture of the mouth with L and N in CNN English is almost a smile while the R would be an round shape.

In Japanese R/L the shape is more closre to the L/N of CNN English being almost a smile.

Is this confusing? It's hard to explain without being in person.

Seeing that the Japanese R/L is almost the same structuraly and sound wise it is quite understandable that sailors 200 years ago wouldn't be able to make the difference of which was being done.

So, once more --
smile (except for ru and ro ... the vowels force a round shape mouth)
tap the tongue as a light L sound

That should work.

Cheers and welcome to the board

Nikki · Nov 25, 2002, 01:24

Your advice sounds good. Anything helps. And its not too confusing. I realize how hard it is to explain when not in person. Thanks for trying.

Aug 16, 2003, 03:10

Your R advise is rock solid. I have a N question. Is there a rule of thumb for pronunciating the N? I'm learning some words via romaji, and in a word like RINJIN, is it RI-N-JI-N (4 syllables); and a phrase SHI WA TENSHI NO NIKOGE...[Noir lyrics], it's TE-N-SHI, correct?

Keiichi · Aug 16, 2003, 03:43

In songs, the N part sometimes is pronounced out just to make the syllables match or whatever. I wouldn't depend on that. In regular (proper?) Japanese speech, TENSHI is TEN-SHI.

jspecdan · Aug 16, 2003, 04:03

Japanese pronunciation is just like Spanish. every syllable is said. guess that what the texan 'R's are like. i dunno.

Nov 20, 2002, 07:19	#1
Nikki Junior Member Join Date: Nov 20, 2002 Location: Ohio, USA Age: 31 Posts: 6	Help with Japanese R's Hello everyone first of all I want to say neat forum. I just joined and was wondering if I could get some help. I am a college student here in the states and I am just now starting to learn it this year. I do pretty well in class except for my accent. At my university we get daily performance grades in how well we speak in class. Our classes are conducted in all Japanese except for our lectures on Japanese grammar which we have as a different class. Anyway my problem is that I have real trouble saying the Japanese R's. Ra, Ri, Ru, Re, Ro. I have been practicing and have gone in to see my teacher for help but I still have problems with it a little even though ive gotten a little better recently. Does anyone have any tips that will help me? Its horrible when you know the language but you just cant get a good grade because you just cant pronounce one part right.

Nov 20, 2002, 07:25	#2
thomas Decommissioned ex-admin Join Date: Mar 14, 2002 Posts: 4,209	Hehe, I think a Texan "r" must be pretty close to Japanese pronounciation. No seriously, I leave the lingual subtleties up to more educated members and just bid you welcome! __________________ Remember what the dormouse said, feed your head, feed your head! Last edited by thomas; Nov 20, 2002 at 07:35.

Nov 21, 2002, 23:57	#7
Hoyu Regular Member Join Date: Nov 3, 2002 Posts: 241	posted by Kakuzen R's definitely sound more like L's.

Nov 22, 2002, 00:50	#8
Twisted That man in the corner Join Date: Mar 15, 2002 Location: The Netherlands Age: 35 Posts: 1,456	I agree with Kakuzen. I don't have much knowledge of Japanese, but you can find this R/L problem everywhere in Asia. I've been in Thailand a few times and you have to pronouce the R as an L, because otherwise you won't be able to tell a taxidriver where to go. __________________ ZenLog Earotic

Nov 24, 2002, 16:58	#12
moyashi Regular Member Join Date: Apr 15, 2002 Location: SonyLand Age: 40 Posts: 1,566	Ok, I teach the reverse. I teach my Japanese students how do "L" and "R" with a US pronunciation. The "r" and "l" in Japanese are difficult because they are so close in construction that an American will have some difficulty. The "N" sound in CNN news is a strong placement of the tongue on the roof top of the mouth. With "l" being almost the same with only a slight change in position and shorter length of strong pressure. While the "r" is made by pulling the tongue back into a snake like position. R/L in Japan are closer to the "L" and "N" sound of CNN English yet ... the big difference the movement of the "R" is introduced. So .... try doing a "l" sound using a slight snake like pull of the tongue with a light (very light) touch of the tongue to the roof top. The posture of the mouth with L and N in CNN English is almost a smile while the R would be an round shape. In Japanese R/L the shape is more closre to the L/N of CNN English being almost a smile. Is this confusing? It's hard to explain without being in person. Seeing that the Japanese R/L is almost the same structuraly and sound wise it is quite understandable that sailors 200 years ago wouldn't be able to make the difference of which was being done. So, once more -- smile (except for ru and ro ... the vowels force a round shape mouth) tap the tongue as a light L sound That should work. Cheers and welcome to the board __________________ crazy gonna crazy

Nov 20, 2002, 07:34	#3
Nikki Junior Member Join Date: Nov 20, 2002 Location: Ohio, USA Age: 31 Posts: 6	I find that funny considering I lived in Texas for over 20 years and just now moved to another state to go to school.

Nov 20, 2002, 23:49	#4
chlorph Lurker Join Date: Oct 21, 2002 Location: Kobe, Japan Age: 31 Posts: 5	Hey, Nikki -- I'm from Texas too (o.0) I'm no linguistic expert but... how about pronouncing the 'r' almost (but not quite) like a 'd'? Da, di, du...?

Nov 21, 2002, 00:17	#5
Hoyu Regular Member Join Date: Nov 3, 2002 Posts: 241	I got the joke Thomas… because I lived in Texas for nearly a decade, and I know that the Japanese words that are spelled in romanji beginning with an "R" sound nothing like the Texan "R" words. R's definitely sound more like L's. ex. Ramen sounds like Lemmon. The funny thing is when my wife used to say the English word Lemmon, it sounded like Remmen. Somehow R's and L's get all mixed up when English speakers first attempt Japanese, and when Japanese speakers first attempt English.

Nov 21, 2002, 05:34	#6
Nikki Junior Member Join Date: Nov 20, 2002 Location: Ohio, USA Age: 31 Posts: 6	so what is your suggestion? Say R's like L's or D's?

Nov 22, 2002, 02:24	#9
Nikki Junior Member Join Date: Nov 20, 2002 Location: Ohio, USA Age: 31 Posts: 6	Well the only problem is its not exactly an L but its not an R either. Its what they call a soft R. Sometimes I can do it ok but usually I cant when im put on the spot in class so it comes out wrong.

Nov 22, 2002, 04:36	#10
Twisted That man in the corner Join Date: Mar 15, 2002 Location: The Netherlands Age: 35 Posts: 1,456	Sounds to me like an R you have to skip. I reckon you have start to pronounce the R, but just before you actually do that, you drop your tongue and move on to the next syllable. The faster you speak, the easier it is.

Nov 22, 2002, 05:18	#11
Nikki Junior Member Join Date: Nov 20, 2002 Location: Ohio, USA Age: 31 Posts: 6	Hmm. Not really. If you did it that way it would just be a different kidn of messed up accent. Oh well I guess I will just muddle through on my own. Thanks for trying to help everyone.

Nov 25, 2002, 01:24	#13
Nikki Junior Member Join Date: Nov 20, 2002 Location: Ohio, USA Age: 31 Posts: 6	Your advice sounds good. Anything helps. And its not too confusing. I realize how hard it is to explain when not in person. Thanks for trying.

Aug 16, 2003, 03:10	#14
futureproof Guest Posts: n/a	Your R advise is rock solid. I have a N question. Is there a rule of thumb for pronunciating the N? I'm learning some words via romaji, and in a word like RINJIN, is it RI-N-JI-N (4 syllables); and a phrase SHI WA TENSHI NO NIKOGE...[Noir lyrics], it's TE-N-SHI, correct?

Aug 16, 2003, 03:43	#15
Keiichi Hi Join Date: Mar 9, 2003 Posts: 818	In songs, the N part sometimes is pronounced out just to make the syllables match or whatever. I wouldn't depend on that. In regular (proper?) Japanese speech, TENSHI is TEN-SHI. __________________ K1

Aug 16, 2003, 04:03	#16
jspecdan Follower of None Join Date: Aug 14, 2003 Location: ...Saitama... Age: 26 Posts: 127	Japanese pronunciation is just like Spanish. every syllable is said. guess that what the texan 'R's are like. i dunno. __________________ _J-Spec Dan American born with Japanese specifications. Saitama - home of...initial D 4th Stage's WRX!

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