Miike Takashi - Genius or Depraved Perv?

Hairyneville · Dec 13, 2002, 04:32

It's a struggle to find Japanese films outside of Japan, unless they're fifty years old or belong to the "extreme" genre. I must admit I'm a big fan of "Beat" Takeshi Kitano, so having found one gem in the mire of the Japanese extreme films available in the UK, I thought I'd try finding out more about Takashi Miike.

I bought Audition after reading rave reviews. It's a brilliant film, although I've only watched it once. The last 15 minutes put me off repeat viewings. . . I won't spoil it for anyone yet to see the film . . . just be sure to sit near a bucket. Rather than blindly spend money on others of Miike's films, I've been checking out features and reviews online and in magazines. Is it just me, or is this one sick bar steward?

I don't know about everyone else, but watching someone masturbate onto a pot plant while watching a woman being raped doesn't sound like entertainment to me. All of Miike's films (with the sole exception of Audition, it seems) look like they involve rape, or at the least use women in roles as objects rather than characters. In one review, Miike said that he didn't make films with strong female characters or leads because "he is a man and only understands the thoughts of men". I'd hate to meet any of his male buddies, considering what the blokes in his films get up to.

It seems to me that all this stuff about Miike being a cinematic visionary is a load of old arse. If he can't even put himself in the place of a woman sufficiently to create a proper female character, what kind of director is he? Imagine if Studio Ghibli took his stand - all their films feature strong female characters, usually in the lead role. Beat Takeshi has a number of strong female characters in his films - I think his latest film, "Dolls", features a number of (admittedly tragic) female characters. Why the hell is Miike's stuff so easy to find when there must be so many better Japanese films that have never made it off their native shores?

Oooooooooo, it makes me MAD!

Twisted · Dec 13, 2002, 05:47

The reason his films are so popular and easy to find outside Japan, is because that genre is practically not done in Hollywood. If anyone tries it gets killed by the censors.

Generally people are perverted primitive beings that like to watch people suffer. Takashi simply offers what many people want to see.
It's a bit unfair to compare him with other directors, since every director has his or her own trademark. Otherwise they wouldn't be outstanding.

Twisted · Dec 19, 2002, 05:19

Well, i've just watched Audition and i must conclude that Takashi is a genius. He's toying with his audience.

The fact that this movie has two endings is also explained in the movie itself: "The sponsor didn't like a certain part of the movie".

I think Takashi is a fan of David Lynch.

thomas · Dec 20, 2002, 00:00

I have never seen any movie directed by Miike Takashi, but reading through the reviews I got interested.

Generally people are perverted primitive beings that like to watch people suffer. Takashi simply offers what many people want to see.

I am afraid that's true, Peter.

Miike himself vehemently denies that Audition is meant as social criticism. In fact he denies the existence of any kind of artistic pretense in his films, instead stating that he is in no position to criticise his fellow men and that he simply wants to create the best possible result from the material offered to him.

Midnight Eye offers excellent reviews of Takashi's oeuvre:

Audition

Dead or Alive - Hanzaisha

Dead or Alive 2 - Tobosha

City of Lost Souls - Hyoryu Gai

By the way, the reviewer is member of our board, but hasn't been around for a while.

Irena · May 19, 2003, 02:59

Wow, this thread seems to be dead since February, why?
However I have seen only the "Audition" and "Visitor Q" - I vote for the "Genius".

As about "Visitor Q" - some reviews I agree with are at
http://www.naturalbornviewers.com/ar...orq/review.htm
http://www.midnighteye.com/reviews/visitorq.shtml
http://www.lovehkfilm.com/panasia/visitor_q.htm

Hey, Hairyneville (I really like your Angry Postal Worker letters by the way

), do you think all those Japanese people reading violent mangas while commuting to work are just a dangerous murderous perverts (not to mention the writers)?

As about women in Takashi Miike's movies,
just read a page on a movie made by Shungiku Uchida (a mother in the 'Visitor Q")
http://home.snafu.de/fablab/queervie.../english85.htm
(by the way, anyone knows where I can find her mangas online? Her homepage has moved OUT).

Well, to me it's an extraordinary movie: I have been watching it, and thinking: oh no, it's just a metaphor (exaggerated witty comment on the social reality; a movie on the fantasy), one can't take it serious.... and then - after it's finished I realized it all CAN be true (such things do happen... and everywhere)... just a happily regressed psychotic family, a moment ago before Police comes... a definite Japanese David Lynch (or even better). Not a Lost Highway - but a Lost JR Track.

Ja mata ne!
Irena

Igirisujin · Jul 19, 2003, 22:37

watch Happiness at the katakuris, Sound of music meets, low key thriller & a touch of wallace and gromit.

He does comedy and he is very good at it!
My favorite

Gaki · Jul 22, 2003, 00:51

Happiness of the Katakuri's is one of his best movies ! It made me laugh so much !! ^^

GopherKhan · Nov 8, 2003, 09:09

I don't know if this has been discussed (I'm new here) but I read an interview with Miike where he stated he eliminates the fiemale characters quickly before they have any chance to bring a sense of order to the chaotic universes the male characters occupy.

Male's are warlike and nonsensical by nature, and to have an entity/person/female that brings order to his universe would be to give an unfair advantage to the protagonist(s).

I dunno, but I feel the guy has a point there.

I've done a few reviews of Miike films (one with my fiancee/review team partner) on the site which you may want to check out.

Dead or Alive: Hanzaisha
http://www.filmrot.com/articles/filmrot/004192.php

and

Ichi the Killer
http://www.filmrot.com/articles/filmrot/004006.php

I plan on checking out Gozu this weekend.

Tell me what you think

-GopherKhan

jovial_jon · Nov 11, 2003, 21:44

i would certainly say Miike is a genius...

regarding his use of female characters - i think he is trying to show that we are perfectly fine with watching men being sliced to bits etc but if we watch it happening to a woman we are sickened - so in an odd kind of way he is promoting gender equality..........or maybe not, i dont know

at the end of the day his films are hugely entertaining - and im not talking solely about the violence - everything about the mise en scene is perfect for me- the sets, the sound/music etc etc...the guy is a genius

Beatnik · Jan 25, 2004, 03:21

Miike is most definitely a genius, this thread seems to be focused on violence so here's an excerpt from the only English language book about the director (Agitator by Tom Mes), regarding a controversial scene from Ichi the Killer where a womans nipple is apparently cut off:

"By using suggestion, Miike implicates the audience in the violence. The violence the viewer purports to have seen took place not on the screen but in his or her own head. The viewer creates and decides for himself the intensity of the violence in these scenes. If it shocks the viewer, then to all intents and purposes the viewer is shocked by his own imagination. The viewer fills in the blanks and is provoked into finding violence inside himself, violence that is more painful and disturbing than anything Miike explicitly shows in the film, because each individual viewer decides the intensity for himself...

...This is a matter of filmmaking technique, it has nothing whatsoever to do with ideology and can therefore not be considered misogynist. Particularly when the filmmaker's intention is to make the viewer question the uncritical consumption of violent images. This leaves no room for misogyny, since it would contradict the intent."

I agree. Sick scenes arent just stuck randomly into his films for the hell of it, this isnt a conventional filmmaker. A regular director would have rape scenes etc, to make the film exciting and popular for the target audience, wheras Miike shrugs genres and target audiences and includes such scenes to either challange the viewer or to develop his characters.

An amazing director whose directed something like 50 films in 11 years, and the majority of them are of amazing quality.

GopherKhan · Mar 11, 2004, 11:52

sorry. Those pages are no longer there. Started my own site with my fiancee at http://www.dreamlogic.net All our miike reviews can be found there.

Anyone seen his new samurai project with Beat Takeshi yet?

JohnnyLo · Mar 12, 2004, 01:43

I think Miike is a great director. My favorite movie is Koroshiya Ichi (Ichi The Killer). I like movies with od characters and out of the ordinary scripts. Sure Ichi the Killer is a bloody and gory movie, but thatｴs not all. Great actors and original script just makes this a 10/10 movie...

but thatｴs only my opinon...

JohnnyLo · Mar 12, 2004, 01:45

[QUOTE=GopherKhan]sorry. Those pages are no longer there. Started my own site with my fiancee at http://www.dreamlogic.net All our miike reviews can be found there.
QUOTE]

Nice site! Iｴm also doing a reviewing site soon

GopherKhan · Mar 16, 2004, 11:54

[QUOTE=JohnnyLo]

Originally Posted by GopherKhan

sorry. Those pages are no longer there. Started my own site with my fiancee at http://www.dreamlogic.net All our miike reviews can be found there.
QUOTE]

Nice site! Iｴm also doing a reviewing site soon

Muchas gracias.

What's your review site gonna be? Any recommendations of Miike films we haven't reviewed yet?

JohnnyLo · Mar 16, 2004, 18:27

My review site will be about everything Asian. So not only movies but all things I can get my hands on. (ok maybe not girls ;))

StorDuff · Mar 17, 2004, 12:06

Ichi the Killer is by far the best (I have seen). The torture scene was cool, the part where the guy was beating and raping his prostitute girlfriend made me smile, and when the head yakuza guy (I forgot his name) was getting beat up and enjoyed it, and the final fight where he dropped all his metal skewers, the nipple slicing...in fact, I love that movie!

I like Audition a lot, aside from the 'feeding scene', that was absolutely disgusting. The ending was nice, unfortunately the dog scared me more than anything else.

Visitor Q, I never even finished that movie it was such crap.

These are, unfortunately, all I've seen. I have Full Metal Yakuza I have been meaning to watch. And Kitano, he's funny

Elgin · Mar 17, 2004, 14:17

Wo! I justed watched Audition and the movie left me feeling like an idiot. Can someone tell me what the hell happend in the end? Did that really happend to Aoyama or was it just a dream?

I gotta tell you the thing that scared me the most was when that phone rang and that girl was just waiting for it.

DVDaholic · Mar 17, 2004, 15:11

Has anyone watched the Ichi the Killer Anime?

GopherKhan · Mar 18, 2004, 06:32

I guess you could attribute it to a fever dream of sorts. Sort of a mix of flashbacks and dreamscapes based un knowledge he had acquired but not quite assembled. She did torture the hell out of him though.

As for the Ichi Anime, I've got it, along with 6 of the ichi mangas. The anime I have on dvd and the manga's are huge zip files. If you want I could find a way to make the manga's available to you online.

Either way, the anime was sort of a disappointment. It actually was kind of annoying.

Elgin · Mar 18, 2004, 08:54

Maybe that happends to you for not having sex for a long time.

GopherKhan · Mar 18, 2004, 16:48

Originally Posted by Luc

Maybe that happends to you for not having sex for a long time.

I assume you're talking about the halucinations and the fever dreams?

jovial_jon · Mar 18, 2004, 20:40

i thought the anime was pretty cool. nothing special, but enjoyable. havent got round to getting hold of the manga though. and i thought visitor q was pretty good. i almost turned it off myself at the beginning because it is just porn for about 10 minutes..but it gets better as it goes on - the bit where the dad confronts his son's bullys outside the house has me in hysterics every time

GopherKhan · Mar 19, 2004, 00:09

The part where he gets stuck inside the dead girl was surprisingly funny as well. He even came loose with a cork popping sound.

I agree. After you get past the first 10 minutes, Visitor Q is a blast.

Dec 13, 2002, 04:32	#1
Hairyneville Angry Postal Worker Join Date: Nov 28, 2002 Location: South of England Age: 30 Posts: 51	Miike Takashi - Genius or Depraved Perv? It's a struggle to find Japanese films outside of Japan, unless they're fifty years old or belong to the "extreme" genre. I must admit I'm a big fan of "Beat" Takeshi Kitano, so having found one gem in the mire of the Japanese extreme films available in the UK, I thought I'd try finding out more about Takashi Miike. I bought Audition after reading rave reviews. It's a brilliant film, although I've only watched it once. The last 15 minutes put me off repeat viewings. . . I won't spoil it for anyone yet to see the film . . . just be sure to sit near a bucket. Rather than blindly spend money on others of Miike's films, I've been checking out features and reviews online and in magazines. Is it just me, or is this one sick bar steward? I don't know about everyone else, but watching someone masturbate onto a pot plant while watching a woman being raped doesn't sound like entertainment to me. All of Miike's films (with the sole exception of Audition, it seems) look like they involve rape, or at the least use women in roles as objects rather than characters. In one review, Miike said that he didn't make films with strong female characters or leads because "he is a man and only understands the thoughts of men". I'd hate to meet any of his male buddies, considering what the blokes in his films get up to. It seems to me that all this stuff about Miike being a cinematic visionary is a load of old arse. If he can't even put himself in the place of a woman sufficiently to create a proper female character, what kind of director is he? Imagine if Studio Ghibli took his stand - all their films feature strong female characters, usually in the lead role. Beat Takeshi has a number of strong female characters in his films - I think his latest film, "Dolls", features a number of (admittedly tragic) female characters. Why the hell is Miike's stuff so easy to find when there must be so many better Japanese films that have never made it off their native shores? Oooooooooo, it makes me MAD!

Dec 13, 2002, 05:47	#2
Twisted That man in the corner Join Date: Mar 15, 2002 Location: The Netherlands Age: 35 Posts: 1,456	The reason his films are so popular and easy to find outside Japan, is because that genre is practically not done in Hollywood. If anyone tries it gets killed by the censors. Generally people are perverted primitive beings that like to watch people suffer. Takashi simply offers what many people want to see. It's a bit unfair to compare him with other directors, since every director has his or her own trademark. Otherwise they wouldn't be outstanding. __________________ ZenLog Earotic Last edited by Twisted; Dec 19, 2002 at 05:15.

Dec 20, 2002, 00:00	#4
thomas Decommissioned ex-admin Join Date: Mar 14, 2002 Posts: 4,209	I have never seen any movie directed by Miike Takashi, but reading through the reviews I got interested. Generally people are perverted primitive beings that like to watch people suffer. Takashi simply offers what many people want to see. I am afraid that's true, Peter. Miike himself vehemently denies that Audition is meant as social criticism. In fact he denies the existence of any kind of artistic pretense in his films, instead stating that he is in no position to criticise his fellow men and that he simply wants to create the best possible result from the material offered to him. Midnight Eye offers excellent reviews of Takashi's oeuvre: Audition Dead or Alive - Hanzaisha Dead or Alive 2 - Tobosha City of Lost Souls - Hyoryu Gai By the way, the reviewer is member of our board, but hasn't been around for a while. __________________ Remember what the dormouse said, feed your head, feed your head!

Jul 22, 2003, 00:51	#7
Gaki Emperor Gakihito Join Date: Jul 3, 2003 Location: London Age: 27 Posts: 417	Happiness of the Katakuri's is one of his best movies ! It made me laugh so much !! ^^ __________________ I Live In Your Toilet, Smells Bad In Here... My Comic Strip Blog: http://www.kuso4649gaki.co.uk

Nov 8, 2003, 09:09	#8
GopherKhan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 8, 2003 Location: Cauc-asian Age: 28 Posts: 6	Miike tha Man I don't know if this has been discussed (I'm new here) but I read an interview with Miike where he stated he eliminates the fiemale characters quickly before they have any chance to bring a sense of order to the chaotic universes the male characters occupy. Male's are warlike and nonsensical by nature, and to have an entity/person/female that brings order to his universe would be to give an unfair advantage to the protagonist(s). I dunno, but I feel the guy has a point there. I've done a few reviews of Miike films (one with my fiancee/review team partner) on the site which you may want to check out. Dead or Alive: Hanzaisha http://www.filmrot.com/articles/filmrot/004192.php and Ichi the Killer http://www.filmrot.com/articles/filmrot/004006.php I plan on checking out Gozu this weekend. Tell me what you think -GopherKhan

Dec 19, 2002, 05:19	#3
Twisted That man in the corner Join Date: Mar 15, 2002 Location: The Netherlands Age: 35 Posts: 1,456	Well, i've just watched Audition and i must conclude that Takashi is a genius. He's toying with his audience. The fact that this movie has two endings is also explained in the movie itself: "The sponsor didn't like a certain part of the movie". I think Takashi is a fan of David Lynch.

May 19, 2003, 02:59	#5
Irena Regular Member Join Date: May 9, 2003 Age: 43 Posts: 63	Wow, this thread seems to be dead since February, why? However I have seen only the "Audition" and "Visitor Q" - I vote for the "Genius". As about "Visitor Q" - some reviews I agree with are at http://www.naturalbornviewers.com/ar...orq/review.htm http://www.midnighteye.com/reviews/visitorq.shtml http://www.lovehkfilm.com/panasia/visitor_q.htm Hey, Hairyneville (I really like your Angry Postal Worker letters by the way ), do you think all those Japanese people reading violent mangas while commuting to work are just a dangerous murderous perverts (not to mention the writers)? As about women in Takashi Miike's movies, just read a page on a movie made by Shungiku Uchida (a mother in the 'Visitor Q") http://home.snafu.de/fablab/queervie.../english85.htm (by the way, anyone knows where I can find her mangas online? Her homepage has moved OUT). Well, to me it's an extraordinary movie: I have been watching it, and thinking: oh no, it's just a metaphor (exaggerated witty comment on the social reality; a movie on the fantasy), one can't take it serious.... and then - after it's finished I realized it all CAN be true (such things do happen... and everywhere)... just a happily regressed psychotic family, a moment ago before Police comes... a definite Japanese David Lynch (or even better). Not a Lost Highway - but a Lost JR Track. Ja mata ne! Irena

Jul 19, 2003, 22:37	#6
Igirisujin Junior Member Join Date: Jul 19, 2003 Age: 27 Posts: 1	watch Happiness at the katakuris, Sound of music meets, low key thriller & a touch of wallace and gromit. He does comedy and he is very good at it! My favorite

Nov 11, 2003, 21:44	#9
jovial_jon Co-owner: Jovesca Records Join Date: Oct 4, 2003 Location: North West England Age: 24 Posts: 621	i would certainly say Miike is a genius... regarding his use of female characters - i think he is trying to show that we are perfectly fine with watching men being sliced to bits etc but if we watch it happening to a woman we are sickened - so in an odd kind of way he is promoting gender equality..........or maybe not, i dont know at the end of the day his films are hugely entertaining - and im not talking solely about the violence - everything about the mise en scene is perfect for me- the sets, the sound/music etc etc...the guy is a genius

Jan 25, 2004, 03:21	#10
Beatnik Junior Member Join Date: Jan 25, 2004 Location: East of comformity, West of convention Age: 29 Posts: 17	Miike is most definitely a genius, this thread seems to be focused on violence so here's an excerpt from the only English language book about the director (Agitator by Tom Mes), regarding a controversial scene from Ichi the Killer where a womans nipple is apparently cut off: "By using suggestion, Miike implicates the audience in the violence. The violence the viewer purports to have seen took place not on the screen but in his or her own head. The viewer creates and decides for himself the intensity of the violence in these scenes. If it shocks the viewer, then to all intents and purposes the viewer is shocked by his own imagination. The viewer fills in the blanks and is provoked into finding violence inside himself, violence that is more painful and disturbing than anything Miike explicitly shows in the film, because each individual viewer decides the intensity for himself... ...This is a matter of filmmaking technique, it has nothing whatsoever to do with ideology and can therefore not be considered misogynist. Particularly when the filmmaker's intention is to make the viewer question the uncritical consumption of violent images. This leaves no room for misogyny, since it would contradict the intent." I agree. Sick scenes arent just stuck randomly into his films for the hell of it, this isnt a conventional filmmaker. A regular director would have rape scenes etc, to make the film exciting and popular for the target audience, wheras Miike shrugs genres and target audiences and includes such scenes to either challange the viewer or to develop his characters. An amazing director whose directed something like 50 films in 11 years, and the majority of them are of amazing quality. __________________

Mar 11, 2004, 11:52	#11
GopherKhan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 8, 2003 Location: Cauc-asian Age: 28 Posts: 6	sorry. Those pages are no longer there. Started my own site with my fiancee at http://www.dreamlogic.net All our miike reviews can be found there. Anyone seen his new samurai project with Beat Takeshi yet?

Mar 12, 2004, 01:43	#12
JohnnyLo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 11, 2003 Location: malmoe, sweden Age: 31 Posts: 8	I think Miike is a great director. My favorite movie is Koroshiya Ichi (Ichi The Killer). I like movies with od characters and out of the ordinary scripts. Sure Ichi the Killer is a bloody and gory movie, but thatｴs not all. Great actors and original script just makes this a 10/10 movie... but thatｴs only my opinon... __________________ Need job in Tokyo now : )

Mar 12, 2004, 01:45	#13
JohnnyLo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 11, 2003 Location: malmoe, sweden Age: 31 Posts: 8	[QUOTE=GopherKhan]sorry. Those pages are no longer there. Started my own site with my fiancee at http://www.dreamlogic.net All our miike reviews can be found there. QUOTE] Nice site! Iｴm also doing a reviewing site soon

Mar 16, 2004, 11:54	#14
GopherKhan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 8, 2003 Location: Cauc-asian Age: 28 Posts: 6	cool cool [QUOTE=JohnnyLo] Originally Posted by GopherKhan sorry. Those pages are no longer there. Started my own site with my fiancee at http://www.dreamlogic.net All our miike reviews can be found there. QUOTE] Nice site! Iｴm also doing a reviewing site soon Muchas gracias. What's your review site gonna be? Any recommendations of Miike films we haven't reviewed yet?

Mar 16, 2004, 18:27	#15
JohnnyLo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 11, 2003 Location: malmoe, sweden Age: 31 Posts: 8	My review site will be about everything Asian. So not only movies but all things I can get my hands on. (ok maybe not girls ;))

Mar 17, 2004, 12:06	#16
StorDuff Regular Member Join Date: Jul 6, 2002 Location: Austin, Texas, USA Posts: 61	Ichi the Killer is by far the best (I have seen). The torture scene was cool, the part where the guy was beating and raping his prostitute girlfriend made me smile, and when the head yakuza guy (I forgot his name) was getting beat up and enjoyed it, and the final fight where he dropped all his metal skewers, the nipple slicing...in fact, I love that movie! I like Audition a lot, aside from the 'feeding scene', that was absolutely disgusting. The ending was nice, unfortunately the dog scared me more than anything else. Visitor Q, I never even finished that movie it was such crap. These are, unfortunately, all I've seen. I have Full Metal Yakuza I have been meaning to watch. And Kitano, he's funny

Mar 17, 2004, 14:17	#17
Elgin Regular Member Join Date: Oct 23, 2003 Posts: 736	Wo! I justed watched Audition and the movie left me feeling like an idiot. Can someone tell me what the hell happend in the end? Did that really happend to Aoyama or was it just a dream? I gotta tell you the thing that scared me the most was when that phone rang and that girl was just waiting for it.

Mar 17, 2004, 15:11	#18
DVDaholic Junior Member Join Date: Mar 17, 2004 Posts: 17	Has anyone watched the Ichi the Killer Anime?

Mar 18, 2004, 06:32	#19
GopherKhan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 8, 2003 Location: Cauc-asian Age: 28 Posts: 6	Audition and Ichi Anime I guess you could attribute it to a fever dream of sorts. Sort of a mix of flashbacks and dreamscapes based un knowledge he had acquired but not quite assembled. She did torture the hell out of him though. As for the Ichi Anime, I've got it, along with 6 of the ichi mangas. The anime I have on dvd and the manga's are huge zip files. If you want I could find a way to make the manga's available to you online. Either way, the anime was sort of a disappointment. It actually was kind of annoying.

Mar 18, 2004, 08:54	#20
Elgin Regular Member Join Date: Oct 23, 2003 Posts: 736	Maybe that happends to you for not having sex for a long time.

Mar 18, 2004, 16:48	#21
GopherKhan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 8, 2003 Location: Cauc-asian Age: 28 Posts: 6	Lol Originally Posted by Luc Maybe that happends to you for not having sex for a long time. I assume you're talking about the halucinations and the fever dreams?

Mar 18, 2004, 20:40	#22
jovial_jon Co-owner: Jovesca Records Join Date: Oct 4, 2003 Location: North West England Age: 24 Posts: 621	i thought the anime was pretty cool. nothing special, but enjoyable. havent got round to getting hold of the manga though. and i thought visitor q was pretty good. i almost turned it off myself at the beginning because it is just porn for about 10 minutes..but it gets better as it goes on - the bit where the dad confronts his son's bullys outside the house has me in hysterics every time

Mar 19, 2004, 00:09	#23
GopherKhan Junior Member Join Date: Nov 8, 2003 Location: Cauc-asian Age: 28 Posts: 6	The part where he gets stuck inside the dead girl was surprisingly funny as well. He even came loose with a cork popping sound. I agree. After you get past the first 10 minutes, Visitor Q is a blast.

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