The State of the JREF political forums (rant)

[noyhauser]

As some people may know I'm not above ranting once in awhile. It usually doesn't do very much, and it probably ticks a few people off, but It gives me a modicum of peace of mind... so here goes.

I joined JREF somewhere abouts two years ago... I can't really remember how I joined in the first place (probably had something to do with me trying to keep touch with my Japanese roots) but I do know that it immediately made a big impression on me. I kinda enjoyed engaging in discussions, some serious, mostly not. I remeber when the photo thread was created, and over time I've developed some good friendships on here. The crazy old guy kinda grew on me, I guess.

However I think where I've spent most of my time is in the political forums. Its not suprising, since I work in International relations, and I enjoy discussing my field. I'd almost say its my biggest passion in my life. Way back when I really enjoyed the discussions I had. I mean I was bothered that that the form slanted a bit to the liberal left (I'm not a conservative by any means though) but people were openminded and it was really an excellent place to discuss issues in Japanese and world politics. I enjoyed it.

For a number of different reasons I left the board. Part of it was I got in an argument and I said something that I regret saying, but also I became really busy with my work, when the forum went down for an extended period of time I just stopped posting. This month a friend online emailed me and asked me to start posting... and I now see why.

The forum that I once enjoyed so thoughoughly has been transformed into some unrecognizable form, because of the controversy about War crimes and guilt from the Second World War. Real discussion has been minimized and taken over by jingoism and rhetoric, which is unfortunate... because before this forum was filled with intelligent discussion. It seems that any good discussion on Japan gets corrupted after a few pages by people who just can't help themselves by posting something bad about Japan.

I'd like to say this to the people who can't seem to help but spam the boards with this topic. This isn;t a board to mobilize support, and essentially spamming topics isn't going to change anybody's mind I assure you... If anything continunally pushing people about Japan's wartime guilt actually accompishes the exact opposite of what you think it will; it hardens people's positions as a counter and you just promote radicalism in response to your radicalism. I consider people who insessently spam about Japan's guilt to be one step above troll status, even if you are intelligent about it.

At this point I've already spoken to five people that have quit posting in the News and current affairs because of the people who insessently post on how japan is terrible ect. I suspect some of the people I used to have discussions with have left as well because of some of you people. To the People who think they are in the complete moral right about japan's guilt and are convinced you are right because nobody wants to post about it anymore, don't fool yourself. People just don't want to post anymore because they see that discussion with you is pointless, not because you are right, but because you aren't here for discussion. You're really here to hear your own voice, and nobody elses.

I'm not against free speech or for censorship. However what people are doing today on this board is ruining it. There are so many things I could talk about, but I'm unlikely to do so because of some of your actions on this board. I could post on recent developments with oil pipelines between china and Japan over russian oil, but I'm unlikely to do so. Its your people's loss more than anything else. I'm sure other people have had good topics to talk about as well, but won't because of how this board has deteriorated.

I think its time some people take a good hard look about why they post here. If your main reason for being here is to bash Japan, and sorta contribute on other aspects of the board, are you really sure your time is being well spent?

Notice has been served. And if you think giving me negative reputation will have any affect on me, think again. Enough people have come to me to complain about this, people that I think JREF values and have been here for quite some time, not worthless trolls that have no better purpose in life but to whine. IF you want to give me negative reputation do so, I have a good laugh at it... I especially enjoy the ones that have comments... because I find it so ironic when you try to justify it.

Have a pleasant day.

[Dutch Baka]

nice post, i get so annoyed about the same bloody thing from the second world war, it like everyday there are people posting about it...

i am on jref now around 6-7 months or something, i am enjoying it, but i hear from a lot of people it was better before...

i wish i could discuses things good, but sometimes i am not confident enough of my english, or my knowlegde, but yeah, maybe in the future i will discuse in some good threads!

[noyhauser]

DOn't worry about it my friend, I think most people understand that this is a multiligual board, and for many people this is not their first language. Intelligence shows through no matter your language. I know a lot of smart people on here who are terrible at eigo, and a lot of very closed minded people who can speak very well.

I think the board was better before. But I think not only have a lot of people left, but when new people come to see the board they see this all this ridiculous behavior for a lack of a better word, and then don't bother posting. I'd like to see that change and close this chapter in JREF's history.

[Dutch Baka]

well lets give it a try, to post better messages instead of posting as much as possible... and discuse some nice threads, and forget about this stupid threads

[noyhauser]

Personally, it takes me a bit of time to put together good posts. For example I'd like to respond to this thread, but I really don't have enough time to. I probably will sometime in the future.

[Mike Cash]

Originally Posted by noyhauser

It seems that any good discussion on Japan gets corrupted after a few pages by people who just can't help themselves by posting something bad about Japan.

Don't you just hate it when someone ruins a good discussion by posting a dissenting opinion? This must be stopped immediately.

[noyhauser]

Haha... yeah, EVERYBODY LISTEN TO ME.

All kidding aside, I'm not asking for a love in, and neither am I asking for no criticism. Actually I thrive on good discussion. But when someone posts something that has little to do with the discussion at hand just to prove their point about some completely unrelated issue, that is the problem. And it seems to happen more and more these days.

[Mike Cash]

Welcome to the internet.

[noyhauser]

I'm a bit of a internet veteran myself, and on websites that are far more vile and condecending than JREF will ever be.

But JREF WAS different, this didn't happen in the past. Thats why I liked posting here. And really I don't think it should happen here regardless... most of the topics are repeditive and often bear little semblance to the forum they are in. Thats my point.

[Elizabeth]

The Japanese language section was also better smaller, with a much higher ratio of native/near native speakers to kids wanting their homework done or help with anime problems, the same can probably be said of just about every fora and subfora we offer here.

[noyhauser]

Hey Elizabeth.... long time no text.
I'm not really familiar with the forum, but isn't there a rule about not asking for homework?

[Mike Cash]

If there is, it gets ignored along with all the other rules. Again, welcome to the internet.

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by noyhauser

Hey Elizabeth.... long time no text.
I'm not really familiar with the forum, but isn't there a rule about not asking for homework?

They haven't been taken down lately if there ever was....and it isn't usually so explicit anyway. The main problems making it more and more frustrating to try and attract new people are a shortage of high-level conversation threads and overall lack of interest in doing everyone's translations -- the vaccum created by a few core members leaving really does have a compounding effect....for any of you even thinking of going now !

[Uncle Frank]

I try hard not to repeat subjects, but it's difficult to think up new ideas all the time. Sometimes you start what you hope will be a good thread and get 2 replys, tends to discourage the thought process.It seems at the moment that J-Rock rules the roost. If every post and thread is a subject you have no interest in, it makes it a little hard to spend time here and stay loyal. It seems hard too, to come up with a thread that generates heavy thinking but not emotions that get out of control. In the past we have had some members that were banned for loseing their temper over posts and going off the deep end. I have trouble with posts that seem to deal with hateing someone for past deeds. I know we shouldn't forget history, but it seems crazy to keep re-living past history just to carry on the hate. I can't help but think of Roddney King's "Can't we all just get along?" statement. Maybe I should get rid of my rose colored glasses with the rainbow design and "Love one another" on the ear pieces?

Frank

[kirei_na_me]

Yes, it has changed. Not that it's a bad thing, but a lot more people have joined. That means a lot more activity everywhere. There seems to be a lot of people thinking they can be handed gigantic translation projects on a silver platter, Japan-haters, and of course, the hundreds--if not thousands--of J-Pop posts per day(which is my personal favorite ).

I think I was the main one who pushed for the Japan/China bilateral section, and sometimes, I think it's created a monster. We've got a lot of these "subtle bashers", I call them, but I am the one who really pushed for it, so I really shouldn't say anything. The reason I pushed for it was because I wanted to confine all that anti-Japanese sentiment to one section. I didn't want it spread throughout the site. People need to realize that this site is primarily for people who are genuinely interested in Japan and have some kind of connection to Japan. I am all for not sugar-coating it, but it's not supposed to be for those who want to bash it constantly.

Believe me, I am not one to praise Japan. I think it's a well-known fact among the members that I'll be almost the last one to praise it, but there needs to be some happy medium. I think there are people here whose main agenda is to bash Japan, but they try to mix in everywhere else. This is one of my main gripes. This is what gets to me the most. See, I make no bones about the problems I have with the Japanese on some issue, where other people try to disguise their real agenda, I believe. Anyway, that's another story...

All I want is for people to get along. I know that sounds corny and unrealistic, but that's what I want. I want to see people being civil. I really don't like to see insults thrown around. It bothers me.

Ok, this is sounding a bit corny, so I'll stop.

Just try to think before you type, and by thinking, I mean taking other people's feelings into consideration. I don't mean the deeper-than-the-depths-of-the-Marianas-Trench type thinking. I mean just being nice...being considerate. That's pretty simple and doesn't require much thought.

[Kinsao]

I like to look in Politics section and read what people have posted, but I very, very rarely post anything there myself. This is because I feel that my knowledge is nowhere near good enough to keep up with everyone else's. There seems to be a load of well-informed and intelligent people (of various points of view) who post in all the sections on J-ref, and quite simply I can't compete.

However, I do feel kind of bad that I post a lot more in the J-pop section than in any other. I feel like I don't contribute anything to the forum, not compared with what I get out of it. I don't live in Japan; I have never even visited there. I know that people can take part in a discussion by using intelligence, even if they don't have first-hand knowledge, but I am not very clever. I try to make contributions to Serious Discussions and Chit Chat and Miscellaneous (areas where I can better disguise my lack of knowledge or brain!), but my postageness is extremely unbalanced all the same.

Ummmm... I just read that and realised it's all "me, me, me..." ... I just felt bad that I seemed to neglect some major areas of the forum, and really, I just wanted people to know that I still read them even though I don't post... (like anyone cares wtf I do, anyway!)

Also, I wanted to say that as far as spammers and Japan-bashing goes, this is a whole load better than some other forums I've been on. There seems to be people willing to keep those "types" in line, or at least try and squeeze some sensible, real discussion out of them. And behaviour that is clearly out of order is dealt with pretty well, I think.

One last thing, totally irrelevant but I have to say it because I'm annoying that way ... I very occasionally (I want to stress the very occasionally) run across a bad vibe about the J-pop section. (I am ABSOLUTELY NOT meaning from anyone in particular, I want to make that quite clear.) Mainly because, there are a vaaaast number of posts made there, many of which are very short, pretty pointless and miles from the topic. I, personally, would love to see more "serious discussion" there, too. But I would also like to say that the people who post on there are among the most friendly and welcoming I have ever encountered on Japan- or music-related forums/message-boards (some of the hate that goes around in some has to be seen to be believed! ). That's part of the reason for the insane amount of postageness; people feel comfortable enough to become chatty, perhaps to the detriment of the theme, but to the benefit of... something else, I'm not quite sure of the word. And they don't all stay in J-pop all of the time.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm bitching at all. I'm just sort of trying to stand up for people in their absence, I guess.........

[lastmagi]

Originally Posted by Kinsao

I like to look in Politics section and read what people have posted, but I very, very rarely post anything there myself. This is because I feel that my knowledge is nowhere near good enough to keep up with everyone else's. There seems to be a load of well-informed and intelligent people (of various points of view) who post in all the sections on J-ref, and quite simply I can't compete.

However, I do feel kind of bad that I post a lot more in the J-pop section than in any other. I feel like I don't contribute anything to the forum, not compared with what I get out of it. I don't live in Japan; I have never even visited there. I know that people can take part in a discussion by using intelligence, even if they don't have first-hand knowledge, but I am not very clever. I try to make contributions to Serious Discussions and Chit Chat and Miscellaneous (areas where I can better disguise my lack of knowledge or brain!), but my postageness is extremely unbalanced all the same.

Kinsao, the fact that you are interested in stuff happening in the "real world" of Japan and making an effort to educate yourself by reading the posts on current events is admirable. I don't think there's any need to feel bad about not contributing, and I think I've seen you post sometimes here anyway. We're all here to learn!

One last thing, totally irrelevant but I have to say it because I'm annoying that way ... I very occasionally (I want to stress the very occasionally) run across a bad vibe about the J-pop section. (I am ABSOLUTELY NOT meaning from anyone in particular, I want to make that quite clear.) Mainly because, there are a vaaaast number of posts made there, many of which are very short, pretty pointless and miles from the topic. I, personally, would love to see more "serious discussion" there, too. But I would also like to say that the people who post on there are among the most friendly and welcoming I have ever encountered on Japan- or music-related forums/message-boards (some of the hate that goes around in some has to be seen to be believed! ). That's part of the reason for the insane amount of postageness; people feel comfortable enough to become chatty, perhaps to the detriment of the theme, but to the benefit of... something else, I'm not quite sure of the word. And they don't all stay in J-pop all of the time.

I don't mean to sound as though I'm bitching at all. I'm just sort of trying to stand up for people in their absence, I guess.........

It's true that I'm not the most sympathetic to many fans of j-pop culture, even though I'm kind of one myself. I do note that the atmosphere is one in which people are comfortable being chatty and friendly. On the other hand, the pointlessness, the hyperness and the shallowness (and at times immaturity, most definitely seen in other forums) of the posts do get irritating and make me question to what extent I want to be in with the mainstream crowd of japanese music. I think one of the things that bug me, to put this part back OT, is the "bubble aura" I sometimes get from j-pop culture fans. Obviously does not include everyone, but I think there's a sense of idealization of the Japanese and its culture, which may mislead them into thinking that Japanese society is picture perfect. Just a hunch, and like I said, not descriptive of everyone.

(Sorry for the OT below, but Kinsao brought up an interesting discussion about the JPop forum)

I think that the j-music culture among fans is still in its very earliest stages of development. My theory is that since there is relatively little professional interest in the topic (and little interest among j-music fans in professionalism), and that j-music is most accessible from anime (which is only beginning to be taken seriously in Western academia), it will take some time for more serious discussions to come around. Hopefully, people will grow out of whether "Haido-sama" will divorce "Megu-b*tch" just to marry them and make them a princess with pretty bishounen bodyguards with yaoi tendencies.

[kirei_na_me]

Kinsao, at least you make appearances in other areas! That's not the only section you hang in. You contribute a lot in other sections of the site, therefore, you rock my socks!

[Kinsao]

Originally Posted by lastmagi

It's true that I'm not the most sympathetic to many fans of j-pop culture, even though I'm kind of one myself. I do note that the atmosphere is one in which people are comfortable being chatty and friendly. On the other hand, the pointlessness, the hyperness and the shallowness (and at times immaturity, most definitely seen in other forums) of the posts do get irritating and make me question to what extent I want to be in with the mainstream crowd of japanese music. I think one of the things that bug me, to put this part back OT, is the "bubble aura" I sometimes get from j-pop culture fans. Obviously does not include everyone, but I think there's a sense of idealization of the Japanese and its culture, which may mislead them into thinking that Japanese society is picture perfect. Just a hunch, and like I said, not descriptive of everyone.

(Sorry for the OT below, but Kinsao brought up an interesting discussion about the JPop forum)

I think that the j-music culture among fans is still in its very earliest stages of development. My theory is that since there is relatively little professional interest in the topic (and little interest among j-music fans in professionalism), and that j-music is most accessible from anime (which is only beginning to be taken seriously in Western academia), it will take some time for more serious discussions to come around. Hopefully, people will grow out of whether "Haido-sama" will divorce "Megu-b*tch" just to marry them and make them a princess with pretty bishounen bodyguards with yaoi tendencies.

I am extremely interested in what you say, Lastmagi! It seems like a different world from the one in which I move. I became interested in Japanese music because of one song that I downloaded, from a site I accessed by mistake when searching for something else. I knew absolutely zilch about Japan at that time. I have never watched anime, and bought my first few manga only last week! Hey though, I am not trying to justify myself and claim to be any different from other fans of Japanese music! I am just really interested to see another angle.

I have seen examples of what you mean about people idealising Japan and its culture, and that is very incomprehensible to me. I can't see how anyone can in fact be so... unrealistic, I suppose is the word I'm looking for.

I have a soft spot for Japanese music because that is what made me want to learn Japanese language. I found myself involuntarily 'learning' from comparing romaji lyrics with translations! And I decided to learn formally. So I feel in some way music helped to 'educate' me... lol.

As I play instruments, I was very interested in what you might call the 'technical' side of the music; how it is put together and how it is played, etc. etc. Japanese culture itself held no interest for me whatsoever (I mean, no more so than any other country - they are all interesting of course!)

But I am not sure exactly what you mean by 'professionalism' Do you mean by 'professional interest', from musicians and people involved in the music industry? Lol - although I'm not the world's greatest musician, I would be very pleased to have more 'musiciany' discussions under the j-pop umbrella. (Although, a number of the regular posters there do in fact play instruments, so, not always 'armchair enthusiast'!) I think there is a lot of genuine musical interest there, which is what hooked me into Japanese music to begin with, as I was getting bored with the music scene in the UK. In all honesty I feel largely 'out' of the j-pop/rock scene because my interest is very strongly on sound rather than visuals. My interest in the 'visuals' stems largely from my background in fine art, and I regard it seperately from music altogether. I also am sometimes a little sorry that there are not more older j-pop/rock fans. I think people sometimes think it's only for teenaged fangirl types. Well, they are missing out, in my opinion!

Ohhh... I am so sorry to go on about this. It's just... music is something that's very close to my heart. And I find it too hard to shut up about it!

[Kinsao]

Awww thank you so much for your nice comment Kirei!

[noyhauser]

Kinsao, I agree with what you're saying about the Jpop forum. Actually it sounds a bit like the state of the Anime Forums about two years ago, which I also ranted a bit about in much the same way you did. Personally though I don't think that these are problems for the forum. Being a bit naive about what japanese music or anime has to offer is not a terrible thing. It can get annoying for sure, but its really not that bad.

On the other hand what I'm talking about here is very different. Jrockers generally keep in their little area, and generally don't interfere with other areas of the board. People like yourself contribute with other areas of the board, which is a positive. Also People are generally willing to learn about Jrock and your opinion probably matters a great deal Kinsao. Actually looking over the forum the other day made me want to break out my MD collection and listen to some tracks.

However what I'm complaining about clearly is not limited to a small area, nor are people open to learning or enhancing learning on the board. the Anti Japanese group disfigures the political discussions on this board. Arguments are pointless because people don't want to learn about the other side... rather they want to just push their political agenda. People who want to talk about Japa or something similar get hounded for their view and "educated" about what is the right way to think. There is no discussion just rhetoric. The reputation system gets abused by people to support each other for their view... ratings aren't given according to the quality of the post. I'm getting negative reputation for posts on other threads just because I said this here. Thats not right and clearly against the whole idea behind reputation.

I think its wrong. And its not inevitable either. I don't think the people who are doing this will listen, or change their views, but maybe moderators can enforce more order. For example we don't need 10 threads about warcrimes in the Japanese history forum. On almost every single board I know of that would be considered spamming, and a moderator would step in. It isn;t healthy for the board at all because it gives prospective posters a skewed view of what this forum is about. It has contributed to longtime posters not posting anymore; People who have balanced intelligent views about japan.

And I agree there are worse boards out there, I've seen a few. However that doesn't mean that nothing should be done here.

[mad pierrot]

I don't think the people who are doing this will listen, or change their views, but maybe moderators can enforce more order. For example we don't need 10 threads about warcrimes in the Japanese history forum. On almost every single board I know of that would be considered spamming, and a moderator would step in. It isn;t healthy for the board at all because it gives prospective posters a skewed view of what this forum is about. It has contributed to longtime posters not posting anymore; People who have balanced intelligent views about japan.

Difference of opinion. I don't think mass deletion of threads and banning people is a productive way of keeping respectable forums. You're basically arguing that unless people post as you do, they shouldn't be allowed in at all. I agree there are posts that don't live up to the standard of intelligent, adult discussion, but like Mike said, this is the internet. There's always going to be bozos out there. Remember, you have the option of ignoring people. If people aren't living up to your standards, then go in there and fight it. Start more intelligent discussions.

[nurizeko]

The WW2 threads are this places equivilant of the christian vs science or democrat vs republican type of threads.

We should make a new sub-forum called japan and WW2, might keep them out of the way.

[Mike Cash]

While a new sub-forum for Japan and WWII may very well be a worthwhile thing to have, people with serious axes to grind will still post anywhere and everywhere they think they can gain an audience.

[Mycernius]

I don't think a sub-forum for Japan and WWII would be a very good idea. The subject causes some very radical posts and already upset people to the point where they will leave Jref or start insulting and nasty posts. One forum for this subject will probably have more locked down threads than the rest of the fora put togther. Unfortunatly the subject, despite being 60 years old, makes good ammunition for the governments of the far east and will continue using it as long as it makes people forget other problems. As Mikecash said, this is the internet and you can't stop people from airing their views, however radical they may be.
I don't post much on the political forum as it is an area I am not well versed. I will see the occasional thread or post that will pique my interest and feel I must reply to it, but most of the time I will just read through them.
As for the j-pop forum. Most of the people who are currently posting and creating threads on this forum are teenagers. I am not having a go at them, but most of them are more interested in the music scene than politics and some of the serious discussions. If you read through some of the threads on j-pop you will see that they seem to be getting along fairly well and are starting some genuine friendships. Okay some of the threads are a bit grating for the older members, such as the *huggles* etc, but it is one of the less confrontational forums and everybody is having fun in there. They might not want to post on some of the more serious threads due to the content of some threads. For some teenagers, especially if English is not your first language, the subject matter can be daunting and they could be afraid of being smacked down by older, more experienced members. I wish some of them would post in the other sections, as I feel a younger persons view can be very refreshing and can actually open up more paths to go down and explore.