Why do japanese learn English so quickly?

[GoldCoinLover]

Or any other foreigner. I was talking to this mexican lady the other day, she said after 2 years she could speak english fluently. I don't know about you, but it'd take me probably 10 years to write, speak, and read japanese fluently. All I know now is the kana and some basic phrases.

Do most japanese people learn english in 2 years? Or longer? Shorter? How long did it take Nagashima-san to learn english? (One of JREF members) If you learned english, how long did it take you to speak it fluently? Is english just an easy language? I can't see it being easy for japanese, considering they must learn to speak different vowels and different sounds they arent used to. Like "french fry", or "maple".

[Mike Cash]

The question heading your post really doesn't belong there, since the content of the post doesn't support the assumption it contains at all.

[GoldCoinLover]

Originally Posted by mikecash

The question heading your post really doesn't belong there, since the content of the post doesn't support the assumption it contains at all.

Right. And the sky is green.

[Mike Cash]

Originally Posted by GoldCoinLover

Right. And the sky is green.

Please reconcile:

"Do most japanese people learn english in 2 years? Or longer? Shorter? How long did it take Nagashima-san to learn english? (One of JREF members) If you learned english, how long did it take you to speak it fluently? Is english just an easy language? I can't see it being easy for japanese, considering they must learn to speak different vowels and different sounds they arent used to. Like "french fry", or "maple"."

with

"Why do japanese learn English so quickly?"


Hint: The content of your post indicates that you don't know if they learn it quickly or not. The question assumes that they do.

[Maciamo]

From my experience as an English teacher in Japan, I can affirm that the Japanese learn English much, much, much more slowly than Europeans. It's fairly normal as Japanese is completely different from Latino-Germanic languages. But yet, even Finnish speakers usually speak very well English with less effort than the Japanese, and Finnish is maybe even more different from English than Japanese.

But I found the reverse more interesting. Why do the Japanese take so long to learn to speak reasonably fluent English, while the majority of the foreigners (Western and Asian) I have met that were really wanted to learn Japanese managed to become fluent with just 2 or 3 years ?

University-educated Japanese have learnt English for at least 10 years, and many still can't hold a simple conversation (although they could probably understand written English at an intermediate level). All the others have learnt English for at least 6 years at school (except maybe the older generations), but usually cannot even make a simple sentence.

I find this rather strange. In a country like Belgium, all people must learn 2, 3 or 4 foreign languages in highschool, and usually 1 or 2 more in option in university even if one does not study foreign languages (e.g I studied economics, but had 3 foreign languages in option). Just after completing highschool, people are usually already fluent in one or two languages. For example, during my studies of economics (in French), those who chose Dutch and English as an option were supposed to have a level equivalent to a TOEIC 800, watch the news and read books and magazines in these languages. This was "highschool level". When finishing university, their level was supposed to be good enough to do business in these languages with native speakers and without hesitation (those who chose German, Italian, Spanish or Japanese started from 0 though, but were still expected to speak conversationally after 4 years of 3-hour/week option). How many Japanese can boast to be able to do the same in only English even after university ? 5% ?

No, the language level at school is radically different between Belgium and Japan. In fact, I have had students who studied English literature at university, and had a TOEIC score of about 600 or 700 (out of 990). In a Belgian university, it is not even the level expected when one enters university for these subjects.

I was not particularily gifted with languages in highschool. In fact, I was among the last of the class in Dutch, and just average in English. I can only imagine that my former classmates now speak both at a higher level than my English now (which already surpass some so-called "native speakers", but that is not very difficult given the quality of education in some Englsih-speaking countries).

In spite of the fact that I was never really gifted for languages, being mostly a scientific in my orientation in all my schooll years then studied economics, I managed to learn 7 languages at a fluent or conversational level. My Japanese level after 2 years in Japan was already better than the one of most Japanese people after 10 years of English, although we have the same handicap.

I certainly agree that it was more difficult for me to learn Japanese than Latin lnaguages, but hardly harder than Germanic languages for a Latin-language speaker. I probably had a harder time with Dutch than with Japanese, although I grew up in a country where it is the dominant language (about 60% of the population).

Yet I could say it took time with Japanese mostly because I was not very motivated to learn it once I got the basis. After 5 months in a Japanese school, I have only learnt it casually by myself during my free time. I didn't need it for my job (being a English and French teacher), and didn't learn it because I liked it, but just because of my environment. If I had had to study it to pass exams like at school or university, I am sure I would have become fluent more quickly than in German or Dutch, because Japanese is a very basic language, with a simplistic grammar (apart from annoying illogical particles, and an even more annoying plethora of homonyms), and most Japanese use as much vocabulary in their daily life than a elementary schooler where I grew up (no, maybe less). Then the pronuciation is by far the easiest of any language I have learnt, and the kanji only help speed up the learning as we can guess the meaning of words we don't know from the root (a much more difficult thing to do in Latin and Germanic languages).

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by GoldCoinLover

How long did it take Nagashima-san to learn english?

1) He doesn't really know English. He uses an online translator to participate in the forum except for the posts in Japanese.

2) Don't you think it would have been better to have asked him directly?

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by Glenn

1) He doesn't really know English. He uses an online translator to participate in the forum except for the posts in Japanese.

How did you know that? lol

Yeah the poster shouldve asked directly... things are getting heated/tense in here!

[Pachipro]

In my 13 years' experience as an English conversation "teacher" and having owned my own English school in Japan, I have discovered that the Japanese are probably the slowest learners of a foreign language in the world. This is due to the psychology of the Japanese mind in that they have convinced themselves, on a sub-concious level, that it is impossible for them to learn a foreign language. And this is probably re-inforced in school, on TV, by their teachers, and peers, etc.

However, such is not the case as I think Japanese can learn any language quickly if given the right atmosphere.

Case in Point: Miyako. She was a high school student of mine for two years and had been studying English conversation since she was in junior high school. She was a very shy girl with glasses and kind of plain looking. She was so shy that she would hardly look at me during class and always had her head down.

However, after 5 years of "studying" from native speakers she couldn't hold more than a very simple conversation. It was sad and is the usual case among Japanese and is something I had learned to accept. I sometimes felt guilty about accepting money from these people as it was hopeless that the majority would ever learn to speak on a basic level, especially among the adults. As hard as I tried to engage her, or any of my students, in conversation they had a mental block to learning it and some of my students had been "learning" English conversation for more than 10 years!

One day Miyako approached me about attending a six month exchange program in the states during her senior year in high school. I told her that it was a wonderful idea and that it would be a great experience for her. She was a little reluctant and shy, but my wife and I convinced her to go. A few months later off she went.

About eight months later I get a knock at my door in the late afternoon. I opened the door and a very cute, stylish, young Japanese woman was standing there. I had never seen her before and said in Japanese, " Yes, may I help you?"

In perfect, and I do mean perfect, American English and accent she says, "Sensei, don't you recognize me? It's me. Miyako," she said with a smile.

I was stunned! Gone were the glasses and shy demure. She had a stylish haircut, makeup and tight jeans. This WAS NOT the same girl I had been teaching English to for two years. No way! But it was.

I invited her in and my wife and I had a wonderful conversation in English with her. At first she was shy at her school in America, but the students and host family were friendly and she soon picked up the language. I asked her how she had aquired it so quickly and she said that since no one spokle any Japanese it was easy! I was still stunned at this sudden transformation and especially that she spoke with a mid-western US accent and had not a hint of a Japanese accent. She said that she enjoyed America so much that she was going to attend University there instead of Japan. No, this was not the same woman. Shy Miyako would've been too afraid to do that.

I believe that once Japanese (and mayby anybody for that matter) are thrown into an English speaking, or whatever language they are learning, environment, like in a foreign country, where no Japanese is spoken they will learn quickly as there is no other option. I found this to be true especially among my adult students who had studied or worked for some time in an English speaking country, much the same way living in Japan forced me, Maciamo, Mad Pierrot, Mike Cash, and others like Elizabeth to learn Japanese so quickly and fluently. (I don't know if Elizabeth has lived in Japan, but she is very fluent.)

Granted, some do not learn the language even after living in a foreign country for some years. But that is their choice because I think they much rather preferred to hang around with those that spoke their own language. I've seen it in Japan with English speaking people and I've seen it here in the US with Japanese people. I think it is very sad for someone to have lived in a foreign country for more than a year and not be able to speak the language at least on a conversational level.

So for you, GoldCoinLover, it will probably take you many years to learn Japanese if you are studying it here in the US for a couple of hours a week and with no other chance to speak it or practice it outside the classroom. However, if you go and live in Japan, and really desire to, you will be able to speak fairly fluently, including reading and writing after only a year or so if you have the desire. I recommend it to anyone rather than throwing away your hard earned money like most Japanese seem to do studying Eikaiwa in Japan. But hey if they want to throw it, I'll be there to catch it.

If Miyako can do it, anyone can.

[lexico]

Originally Posted by Minxie

How did you know that? lol

Although Glenn could answer that question himself, I think as a member, I might be able to answer that. Glenn said that because Hiroyuki Nagashima-san said so several times, and also because through his active support by answering many, many, many questions of language and Japanese information, Hiroyuki Nagashima-san has become a public figure on this forum. There's also a thread dedicated to him, too. Hiroyuki Nagashima is my friend

Yeah the poster should've asked directly... things are getting heated/tense in here!

Not really; this is how a lot of discussions go. "It is another person that sharpens one's mind, as steel sharpens steel."

The OP's thesis is actually an interesting one although the colloquial presentation might look a bit confusing (Mike pointed out this obvious contradictory appearance.)

"If it can be said that a native speaker with many vowels learning a new language with fewer vowels should be easier than for a native speaker with fewer vowels learning a language with more vowels, then how does a Mexican with only 5 vowels of /a, e, i, o, u/ easily learn English with 8 vowels in only 2 yrs while an American with 8 vowels /a, e, ae, i, o (open), o, u, @/ might spend 10 yrs (Goldcoinlover's self-assessment) to learn Japanese with only 5 vowels ?"

I think that is one way of looking at the question intended by GoldCoinLover.

[blade_bltz]

Pachipro - I think you've got it right on the money. I am friends with two Japanese guys, both of whom made it out to the States, both of whom picked up English at an incredible speed and now speak it at a perfectly natural level.

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by Pachipro

InI believe that once Japanese (and mayby anybody for that matter) are thrown into an English speaking, or whatever language they are learning, environment, like in a foreign country, where no Japanese is spoken they will learn quickly as there is no other option. I found this to be true especially among my adult students who had studied or worked for some time in an English speaking country, much the same way living in Japan forced me, Maciamo, Mad Pierrot, Mike Cash, and others like Elizabeth to learn Japanese so quickly and fluently. (I don't know if Elizabeth has lived in Japan, but she is very fluent.)

Thanks for sharing this story, Pachipro. I completely agree that living in the country helps a lot to learn the language, except of course if one hangs out with people who speak another common language (English or whatever).

What probably helped me learn 6 foreign languages is that, like many Belgians (and Europeans in general, especially Northern European), I used my sumer holidays at school and university to study a few weeks or a month in a language school in another European country. This was great as it allowed me to experience living in another country for a short period (either in a host family or an apartment), allowed me to visit the city of my choice and the region (I stayed in Florence, Rome, Sevilla, Salamanca and Barcelona, from 2 weeks to 6 weeks each). This was less costly than going there as a tourist, as I didn't stay in a hotel and cooked by myself. The lessons were generally only 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, so there was still plenty of free time.

I quizzed my wife and other Japanese acquaintances about this, and nobody seems to do the same while still a student in Japan. All the people who go abroad with a "ryugaku" programme do it after their studies (usually after working a few years), and usually for a period of one year.

My question is WHY ? Why is it common (even normal) for students in some European countries to go on a study-holiday programme abroad (some go to the USA, Canada, Latin America, or even as far as Australia). Money is probably not a problem, as Japan is also a rich country. If Europe is too far, they could go to Australia, Hawaii, Hong Kong, Singapore or even Korea to learn Korean (European students do not limit themselves to 1 or even 2 languages). Time is not a problem. The Japanese have about 6 weeks of summer holiday. Motivation is not a problem as may Japanese go and study abroad later anyway. Could it be that Japanese parents (with almost no exception) refuse to finance these very useful and not so expensive overseas studies, or worse, that they try to prevent them from doing so because "foreign countries are dangerous" ? I can't understand why the same parents who pay expensive "juku" or private lessons in Eikaiwa schools to their children for years, would not want to pay for 2 or 3 weeks of English in a similar (and probably cheaper) school in, say, Australia. I can't understand that a university student is too young to go abroad, when others of the same age who do not go to university go on "ryugaku" programmes by themselves.

Then what about highschool student exchange programmes like AFS or Rotary Club ? These seem virtually unheard of in Japan. There used to be 3 or 4 non-European exchange students in my last 2 years of highschool, but never a single Japanese. When I asked in Japan, I was told that such programmes existed but were very rare. These programmes do not cost anything and are as safe as it can be, as the exchange students stay in a carefully selected host family that take good care of them (and is responsible for them, like real parents). The highschool English level in Japan is not the issue. Many people go on such programmes in countries where they do not know the language at all (Russia, Thailand, Brazil, etc.), and learn when they arrive. After one year they are usually fairly fluent, wherever they chose to go. This is because they have no opportunity to speak their native language, and must communicate with locals at school and in the host family. Such programmes should be encouraged more in Japan.

My recommendation for Japanese people who want to become fluent in another language (or want their children to become fluent) is :
- go on study-holiday trips for a few weeks during summer holidays
- go on a one-year exchange programme in highschool or university
- go on a "ryugaku" programme for one year, and DON'T stick around other Japanese people (so avoid big cities like London, as you WILL be tempted).

The last one is already common, but is by far the most expensive, and possibly the least efficient. My wife also stayed for 6 month in London, but she stayed half of this period in a student appartment where all the other tenants were Japanese. I know how common this is in London, so don't do the same mistake.

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by lexico

"If it can be said that a native speaker with many vowels learning a new language with fewer vowels should be easier than for a native speaker with fewer vowels learning a language with more vowels, then how does a Mexican with only 5 vowels of /a, e, i, o, u/ easily learn English with 8 vowels in only 2 yrs while an American with 8 vowels /a, e, ae, i, o (open), o, u, @/ might spend 10 yrs (Goldcoinlover's self-assessment) to learn Japanese with only 5 vowels ?"

I think GoldCoinLover only "talked" to this Mexican person on the Internet (in written), and so could not judge the accent. But Mexcians speak Spanish, a language derieved from Latin, and so have a lot of facilities learning English, as about half the vocabulary is similiar (and the grammar is not SO different).

Lexico, what do you mean that English has 8 vowels ? I counted 13 of them without the diphtongs. They are here on Wikipedia.

[lexico]

Yes, I know what you mean. In phonetic trascription of the major international varieties of English there are monophthong vowels of either 13, 14, or 18 depending on classification. English Phonology

The number of phonemes in English

The number of speech sounds in English varies from dialect to dialect, and any actual tally depends greatly on the interpretation of the researcher doing the counting. The Longman Pronunciation Dictionary by John C. Wells, for example, using symbols of the International Phonetic Alphabet, denotes 24 consonants and 23 vowels used in Received Pronunciation, plus two additional consonants and four additional vowels used in foreign words only. For General American it provides for 25 consonants and 19 vowels, with one additional consonant and three additional vowels for foreign words. The American Heritage Dictionary, on the other hand, suggests 25 consonants and 18 vowels (including r-colored vowels) for American English, plus one consonant and five vowels for non-English terms.

However in phonemic transcription which is equivalent to a broad transcription allophonic variations that can be distinquished acousitically are merged depending on purpose of the transcribing. (there are many ways to do this. Phonetic Transcription)

Narrow and broad transcription

There are two general types of alphabetic phonetic transcription: broad transcription and narrow transcription. Broad transcription is usually just a transcriptions of the phonemes of an utterance, whereas narrow transcription encodes information about the phonetic variations of the specific allophones in the utterance.

Going back to your link, this is how I counted 8 monophthongs in North American English by merging the 13 vowels defined in wiki English Language in your link.

monophthongs in narrow transcription

01. i/iː Close front unrounded vowel bead
02. ɪ Near-close near-front unrounded vowel bid
03. ɛ Open-mid front unrounded vowel bed
04. æ Near-open front unrounded vowel bad
05. ɒ Open back rounded vowel bod
06. ɔ Open-mid back rounded vowel pawed
07. ɑ/ɑː Open back unrounded vowel bra
08. ʊ Near-close near-back rounded vowel good
09. u/uː Close back rounded vowel booed
10. ʌ/ɐ Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Near-open central vowel bud
11. ɝ/ɜː Open-mid central unrounded vowel bird
12. ə Schwa Rosa's
13. ɨ Close central unrounded vowel roses

I merged the following category of vowels in my broad transcription.
First, short and long monophtongs
Second, lax and tense monophthongs
Third, monophthongs in proximity to each other
Fourth, ignore rhotic colouring.

monophthongs in broad transcription

(1) i: Close front unrounded
01. i/iː Close front unrounded vowel bead
02. ɪ Near-close near-front unrounded vowel bid
13. ɨ Close central unrounded vowel roses

(2) e: Open-mid front unrounded
03. ɛ Open-mid front unrounded vowel bed

(3) ae: Open front unrounded
04. æ Near-open front unrounded vowel bad

(4) o: open back rounded
06. ɔ Open-mid back rounded vowel pawed
07. ɑ/ɑː Open back unrounded vowel bra
(*) NAE lacks this sound, either pronouncing it as (4)
05. ɒ Open back rounded vowel bod

(5) u: close back rounded
08. ʊ Near-close near-back rounded vowel good
09. u/uː Close back rounded vowel booed

(6) @/invereted v: Central
10. ʌ/ɐ Open-mid back unrounded vowel, Near-open central vowel bud
11. ɝ/ɜː Open-mid central unrounded vowel bird
12. ə Schwa Rosa's

Oops, the number should have been 6, instead of 8 ! Miscalculation on my part. These 6 monophthong vowels are what I find phonetically distinct enough to be easily distinquishable by an ESL/EFL student. I guess my interpretation breaks down because there are only 6 vowels in North American English which is only 1 more than Japanese in number. What can be said is that the 6 NAE vowels and the 5 Japanese vowels are only close in /i, e/ but quite different in the Japanese /a, u, o/ ~ NAE /ae, u, a~o, central/ sounds. This would be one area of difficulty in learning a different vowel system in either direction.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by lexico

Although Glenn could answer that question himself, I think as a member, I might be able to answer that.....Not really; this is how a lot of discussions go. "It is another person that sharpens one's mind, as steel sharpens steel."

Thanks for the 411 on Hiroyuki.

Also... i was just kidding around about "things are getting heated/tense in here!" ... its kind of like a witty sarcastic tone... lol... but thanks for replying to that too

[misa.j]

Learning English in Japan could be very challenging and trying to be fluent is almost impossible.
It might sound silly, but speaking English with correct pronounciation in front of other Japanese people can occasionally make you feel uncomfortable because they simply don't understand what you're saying or envy you.

They start having English classes in middle school or, for some kids, they start going to "Juku" which has English course in elementary school, but what they learn in English classes doesn't really help for conversation. They emphasize on grammer and vocabulary, and they teach you to understand it in Japanese which makes it very confusing for most students. I'm thinking that's one of the reasons not many people are willing to commit in studying seriously.

Well, I've been living in the US for over six years now, but I don't think I'm fluent yet when it comes to speech, I still have a lot to learn. Everything I do, like thinking, singing to myself(?), dreaming is in English, though.

[Keiichi]

One of the main reasons some do commit to studying it is for the University entrance exams to get into a good University. But of course, as mentioned, just grammar and vocabulary is highly emphasized, as that's what's on the entrance exams also. Afterwards, the English knowledge of most just goes straight down the drain since it's not needed anymore.

Keiichi

[GoldCoinLover]

Thank you for the response. What is Eikaiwa ?

I don't know how long it would take me to learn japanese in america (but probably 10 years), but I plan to get on some type of exchange program at a community colleage to go there and learn japanese, see if I like it, and live there for awhile.

That mexican lady I talked to, I talked to her at McDonalds. All the latio people seem to work there.It wasn't on the internet

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by GoldCoinLover

That mexican lady I talked to, I talked to her at McDonalds. All the latio people seem to work there.It wasn't on the internet

And how was her grammar ? Didn't she confuse past simple and present perfect, mistake in irregular tenses, confuse some prepositions or add "the" where it's not needed ? These are all typical mistakes of Spanish speakers. If you can't tell, the you are not ready to become an English teacher.

Btw, Eikaiwa means "English conversation" in Japanese.

[WHEATTHlNS]

That mexican lady I talked to, I talked to her at McDonalds. All the latio people seem to work there.It wasn't on the internet.

Uhh. . .

10 years to "learn" another language? Thats. . .ALOT of time - are you going for FLUENCY or UNDERSTANDING - cause theres a difference, and being the lazy individual I am, I'd much rather go with UNDERSTANDING and be satisfied.

And ENGLISH is a pain to learn. I hated it and its filthy grammar and hate it now. It is so markedly different from JAPANESE thats its not even funny - no plurals, no pronouns, no subject verb agreements - ahhhhh the joy.

[Dream Time]

it only depends on how much effort you put in learning the language, and how much you use it.

when i was in Hong Kong, my english was very poor, also never really had the chance to use it outside the classroom, i came to Canada when i was 10, i came into the ESL class, and i was able to hold up conversations in English within 3 months.

[Dream Time]

i think English is very easy to learn

Chinese, on the other hand, is very, very difficult.

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by WHEATTHlNS

And ENGLISH is a pain to learn. I hated it and its filthy grammar and hate it now. It is so markedly different from JAPANESE thats its not even funny - no plurals, no pronouns, no subject verb agreements - ahhhhh the joy.

No pronouns in Japanese ? What about watashi, boku, ore, anata, kimi, etc. as personal pronouns ?

As for subject-verb agreement, there aren't really any in English except for the verb "to be" and the final "s" at the 3rd person. Not really difficult compared to Latin grammar.

[WHEATTHlNS]

Let me requalify and say that (unless explicit and needed) pronouns arent as important in JAPANESE as in ENGLISH. But if I had the time I could come up with a laundry list of differences between ENGLISH and JAPANESE language (at the top would certainly be formal and informal speech patters) -

And so far, the only grammar I've seen are the backwards commas (those have yet to be given a name in our class) and periods.

[Mike Cash]

I think you're confusing grammar and punctuation.....

[Kinsao]

I think whether or not Japanese people learn English quickly depends a great deal on the individual person (i.e. their capacity for learning), the circumstances, their tutor (or lack of), and other incalculable variables.

For instance, I think it's pretty much certain that if you go and live in a country, you will learn the language much faster than by taking classes in your own country. Similarly, if you take classes, you will learn faster than if you try and learn by yourself.

I can't really talk from experience as I have only know few Japanese people living in the UK In all cases I would say their English skill was "good" but not "perfect"; I mean they have no trouble in understanding and being understood, but still have some accent and the occasional incorrect grammer or words. This is no more or less than I would expect from, say, a native Italian speaker living in the UK.

If someone is motivated, has average level of intelligence, and lives in an English-speaking country, there is no reason they couldn't learn English quickly. If they continue to live in Japan, probably they wouldn't get such a good accent, though (unless they had a really good tutor, maybe?)

The same goes for the other way around, native English speakers learning Japanese. However, I was only really thinking about speaking and understanding. Writing the kanji would be harder to learn than for Japanese to learn the Western script. But not being good at kanji shouldn't hamper things like accent, especially if the person was living in Japan.