So you want to live in Japan? - Japanese Culture and You

[Rio Lee]

A must read written by someone on outpost nine forums, dont know why, I just feel that I need too post this here too for those that want to come to Japan (me included). And sorry if i post it in a wrong place.

Originally Posted by pierrot le fou@Outpostnine forums

Title : So you want to live in Japan? - Japanese Culture and You

So you want to live in Japan? You want to teach English? You want to study abroad? You want to emigrate? You want to make a pilgrimage? There are so many people whose view of Japan and living there is unrealistic or overly optimistic, and so many people who can use a reality check. I hope to provide some realistic information and insight into living in Japan as someone who's done it for a couple years.

Yes, this makes me biased, because clearly I am not you, and my views, beliefs, and notions about Japan have been shaped by my residence and my perceptions before I came.

To help you understand what that bias is, I'll explain first why I'm here.

I have always loved languages. I studied French in elementary school at a bilingual French/English school in the US. I studied Spanish in middle school as well as high school. I have been interested in Japan since the Ninja Turtles and the Karate boom of the 80's, and was egged along through high school with exposure to Japanese games and cartoons, which I had been previously exposed to but didn't realize them as Japanese products.

When I got to college, I floundered around searching for something that would grab my interest, and took a smattering of courses in all subjects, from anthropology, to logic, to higher level math (linear algebra), to Constitutional law and religion. I took Japanese my second year along with some science and more math, to round out the base of politics and science. My second year of college, my Japanese professor changed, and what had been a fun course turned into a boring review of Kanji, and didn't aid me in my goal of conversational ability. I failed and gave up on Japanese. I ended up graduating with a degree in religion and political science.

My first year Japanese professor ended up at Harvard, which was where my house and my job where I was post-graduation. We met up for drinks and dinner now and then, didn't practice conversation that much, but kept in touch because we got along well. I hated my job at the time, working at a tech company doing quality assurance testing for printer software. I bitched to my professor about the job, and she kept suggesting I teach in Japan. Eventually she brought an application for the JET programme, and told me to get it done or else.

I applied, got into the program, quit my job, and left for Kyoto prefecture in August of 2003. I was placed in the same prefecture as Az, and rode down on the shinkansen together from Tokyo, impressed with his Japanese and wondering how the **** I was going to function with my minimal grasp of Japanese.

I could read kana without much of a problem, maybe about 50 kanji with any competence, and knew a smattering of phrases with relatively poor hearing.

I had very little concept of what to expect, as I knew very few Japanese people, and as I was soon to find out, Japanese people living abroad are quite different from Japanese people still living in Japan. Incredibly different.

I think I'm a rather middle-of-the-road participant in the JET program. Many people come because they have a large interest in Japanese language and/or culture. Many others come because they stumbled upon the program and figured that it was a good way to travel around Asia. Most applicants have very little job experience in the 'real world' post-college. I was neither ambivalent towards Japanese culture, nor drooling over the chance to experience it. I had been once during college and enjoyed it, but lost most motivation with the change to a crappy professor.

So in short, my bias is that I applied neither as a Japanese fanatic, nor as a freeloader looking for an easy job with decent money.

As I said, most of the people on JET fall into one of those two categories -- those who think it's an easy job that will allow them to put off real work for a while and do something fun, and those who have this image of Japan as a focus of their studies and interests and want a chance to experience it first hand.

The former group tends to not do so well in Japan. Most of the people I know who had no interest in Japan, and couldn't speak the language, got out of the country quickly. The job they thought was easy turned out to be relatively boring, and the life outside of their job generally included a boatload of alcohol, and a constant feeling of isolation. That is a generalization, but one that is based on observation rather than assumption.

The latter group tends to divide into several different types depending on where their interest in Japan stems from. The anime/manga/whatever fanatics tend to do the worst, realizing quickly that Japan is not a mecca for nerds and geeks, and that most Japanese people have seen far less anime than they have. They start to realize that reading the manga and watching it here isn't much different that doing the same in the US using their computer.

The people who have an interest in a martial art, cultural property, the religion, the cooking, or some other aspect tend to do well or poorly depending on their placement. Some find that their area has the cultural things that interest them, and let the hobby occupy much of their free time, and find that it gives them a focus for their stay. Those who get placed far away from someplace they can actively pursue their interest tend to leave quicker, or find another job and relocate to some or no success.

The most successful group is probably the people who study the language extensively beforehand, and view fluency and improvement in their language/translation skills to be a worthwhile goal to pursue, and actively pursue it. They are the ones who most often go on to adapt to the Japanese lifestyle best, and the ones who tend to turn into long-term residents. An understanding of Japanese is critical in understanding the society, cultural quirks, and other miscellany in this country without going entirely batty.

People like me, who don't quite fit into either group, tend to end up viewing this as just another place to live. It's just another job. It has its good and bad points, just like the job that came before it, and depending on how rewarding our job is we will stay or go as we please. Some of us study more than others, most of us end up with at least communicative Japanese, and I feel like we tend to adjust better than many other people because of our view of Japan through our own eyes without the heavy tint of perception and expectation to warp what we see.

There are, of course, exceptions to all groups. There are the people like me who blow off the job because they realize that it's not as demanding as their previous job, and end up turning towards alcohol or travel to enjoy their time here before taking off as soon as contractually possible. There are those who come by chance to delay entrance into the real world who find the job rewarding, or their experiences rewarding, and stay longer term than they expected to. There are those who are into a certain cultural property, and find out that the way it's done in Japan doesn't live up to their expectations.

So many martial artists complain that the Japanese give out ranks too arbitrarily and easily, making it meaningless and easier than what they were used to.

And some of the language people discover that Japanese isn't going to net them a high-paying job quickly and easily, and that the effort required to get a job with it is quite a bit more than what they expected, as they realize how different their book learning was from the real deal.

The JET motto is 'ESID' (every situation is different), and while there are broad categories to fit people into as I just did, there will always be outliers. I am not a predictive genius of how someone will cope in Japan, but I can suggest the trends that I've seen.

So now comes the advice, now that I've given some background and information on what I've seen. Since people tend to be piss-poor about judging why they came here, and incredibly dishonest with themselves a lot of the time about what they want or expect, I sincerely doubt that the prior descriptions will be enough to figure out what type of experience you're likely to have. Here is a list of questions I think you should ask yourself before coming, and answer honestly, as well as explanations about why they're important...

What do you want to come of your stay here?

The concept of living abroad and gaining experience with it is a wonderful one which I wholly support. And I believe that everyone who has the opportunity should try to live abroad at least once in their life to see what it's like and to experience being an outsider. It will develop skills quickly that most people will never learn.

However, why Japan? Why here? There are so many countries in the world where you can visit and enjoy. Japan is one that is VERY hard for people from the West to live in, because of the difficult language, the wholly different culture, and the difficulty of fitting in and adapting. While people may talk **** about the French, it is possible to be accepted into French culture and not stick out like a sore thumb after living there for a while. Chances are that you will not be able to manage the same feat in Japan on appearance alone.

So why Japan? As yourself why you want to come here rather than somewhere else in the world. And be honest with yourself, because we're moving on to the next question...

If your image of Japan turns out to be false, how disappointing will it be?

As I said, I support people travelling abroad to learn about a different culture. However, if your entire stay hinges on the perception of the country you have, and whether or not the reality lives up to that image, you are less interested in experiencing the culture, rather than exploring something you think you already know. And whereas that can be fun, it can also explode in your face when the reality doesn't compare to the image you had.

There are many a miserable person who gets to Japan and thinks it's the land of easy women, awesome gadgets, forward thinking efficiency, and then sees the reality not matching up, and finding that everything they were looking forward to receiving without effort isn't going to happen.

For instance, I came to Japan with my contact with Japanese people being solely immigrants to the US from Japan. I spoke to these intelligent open-minded individuals who I obviously liked the company of enough to spend time around. I expected Japan to have a good portion of individuals like this, so that I could have similar friends around me in Japan as the Japanese I knew in the States. My enjoyment of Japan wasn't dependent on that fact, but I figured that it would be a nice bonus.

I was entirely wrong. The intelligent, the motivated, the driven, the tolerant, the exceptional -- those are the people I met in the US. And the average, well, the average is the same everywhere. It took me a long time to meet people here that I was expecting to be quite prevalent. It didn't crush me, but it did change my perception of my first several months when I had few Japanese acquaintances that I could count on as anything more than drinking buddies...

Can you swallow your pride?

This has got to be one of the most important questions for anyone living in Japan. Japanese culture is focused around preserving the 和【わ】 (wa, social harmony), and that means that sometimes you have to swallow your pride and apologize when you did no wrong, or hold your tongue when someone says something stupid, or tone down your argument against a wrong to prevent a friendly meeting from turning into something a little more hostile or uncomfortable.

And it's a hard lesson to learn.

I am a bull-headed piece of **** ******* a lot of the time, and I know it. It's REALLY hard for me to concede that I'm wrong when I can see it as clearly as day. It's REALLY hard to look into somebody taunting me, and lording their correctness over me, and conceding. So when I have to do the same to somebody who isn't even right, it's a real ******* struggle. Swallowing my pride, bowing my head, apologizing for an inconvenience that is not my personal fault is humiliating -- but necessary.

In Japan, so much depends on your social relations and social network. No matter how great your job is, the **** that surrounds your job will occupy a large portion of your time, and most of your time is outside the classroom. There have been so many people who have left due to problems with their supervisor, with their schools, with the expectations of the people above them, and because of their inability to swallow their pride. The people who are the most timid tend to be given a LOT more slack, because they are going to assimilate to the system a lot quicker, or at least not fly in the face of the system.

You have to be able to swallow your pride. If you honestly can't do that, then you are going to run into a brick wall in Japan going full-speed, and it's going to hurt.

How tolerant are you?

This ties in with swallowing your pride in some senses, but in a different way. Japan is an entirely different culture. Entirely different. There are going to be things that you cannot change. You are going to want to change them. You are going to want to take your view of the world and try to shape Japan to it, but Japan is not going to budge if even every foreigner in Japan took that view (and there's not even a chance of that happening anyway).

So you're going to have to be tolerant of people who don't think like you. You're going to have to be tolerant of viewpoints that you disagree with. You're going to have to be tolerant of **** that's said to you without malice but that hurts. You're going to have to grow a thick skin and learn to turn the other cheek. And it's going to suck sometimes. Which is another reason you need tolerance.

You cannot explain so much of this to Japanese people. They are just not going to understand. They are going to take your passionate cries against the system and view them as an affront to them, their identity, and their country. They may be internationalized, have lived abroad, and have experienced some discrimination of their own, but they are still going to have trouble relating to what you're saying. They're still going to shut their ears when you start to rant.

And that's what the foreign community is so good for. That's what foreign friends do best -- let you ***** about a shared experience.

But the foreign community is small. Very small. And unlike home where you can pick and choose your mates based on personality, especially in the middle of nowhere in Japan, proximity more than anything will dominate choices of people you will be around a lot. Tolerance of people you may not even give the time of day to in your home country is of critical importance, because you don't want to drive away your support group.

Sometimes you just need another foreigner to talk to.

What's your goal?

What do you want to do with your time in Japan? The more specific you can be, the more you can pursue an interest, a hobby, or a further career path or study, the more content you will be. Idle time tends to be in abundance when you come to Japan, especially at the beginning. You will find that the flurry of activity when you first come here dies down, and you will be sitting in your apartment wondering what the **** you just got yourself into.

Finding a hobby -- no matter how inane -- is going to help a bunch. Alcohol tends to be the replacement for a hobby, and causes serious serious problems with many many people here (myself probably included). Without somewhere to direct your energy, you will turn to not-so-healthy behaviour. So find a gym, find a sport, find a hobby, find a group, and get out and DO SOMETHING with your time here.

Study, take correspondence courses, work on becoming a world-class cyclist, get in shape, learn a traditional Japanese art, ANYTHING, but have a goal.

All of the advice given in response to the previous questions culminates in one last question which is of utter and complete importance. If the answer to the following question is no, then you should never ever ever come to Japan for more than a trip, because if you get unlucky...

Can you ask for help when you need it?

No man is an island, standing independently. You will suffer culture shock when you get here. If you have proclivity towards depression or mental illness, you may see it flare up. Every year on the JET program, at least one participant seems to commit suicide. There are safety nets. There are solutions. There are ways out. But sometimes everything just catches up with you, and you think you can handle it but couldn't.

You need to have the balls to say, "I can't do this alone, I need help" and go to counselling, or go home, or do something hard like cancelling your contract and going home early.

Yes, this can be true anywhere you live, but Japan truly is a harsh mistress for many people. The stress of living in a different country, a different culture, constantly being stared at, being talked about in front of your face without understanding, being pissed on at work, feeling incapable at your job, the short winter days, the lack of sun, the lack of people around you that you trust, the distance from home, the loneliness, the feeling of being stuck -- most of us feel many of these, not necessarily that strongly, or all at once, but they are different for every person, and some can't handle it.

Everything is just so different here that a swing of highs and lows makes you feel like a manic depressive without their lithium much of the time. You have a wonderful day where you feel like the best damned foreigner who ever set foot in Japan, when you managed to succeed at a hard task through effort and determination, and days where everything is falling apart and you can't find anyone around you to keep you from falling to your knees and sobbing.

And that is going to weigh on you. And it can continue. For days. For weeks. And some people let that get to them. They believe they don't need help. And then they believe there's no one who can help. And then they kill themselves.

So you need to be willing to ask for help. You need to be able to suck up your pride and say, "I can't handle this." You need to be able to make tough decisions on your own, or ask for the help of someone who can help you make them. You need to be able to realize when you're at wits end and get out of a bad situation. And that means you need to realize that you may have to ask for help. Don't bullshit yourself on this point. One out of 5,000 a year is a lot bigger chance than winning the lottery. It can happen to you. Don't **** with your life because you have this view of visiting Japan as a life's ambition which is all that matters.

Realize that help is there if you need it and have the ability to ask.

I think Japan is a wonderful country, and I have been living here for over two years because I enjoy it. But it also isn't all roses and amusing anecdotes about cultural mishaps. It takes a huge strain on your mind and on your body if you're not careful, and sometimes even if you are careful. It can be a wonderful experience, but it isn't perfect, and it probably won't meet your perceptions/expectations of it. I can't tell you what living in Japan is like, because I'm still learning more every day. I just want to offer guidance to people who may not look before they leap. The ground is not solid and paved with gold off that edge, and expecting it to be will only cause you get hurt worse.

Don't let me discourage you from coming or let me colour your perception of Japan as a place that drives even the most stable men mad. Please, take some words of advice and ask yourself those hard questions before you make such a huge decision. And take a day at a time. Because life is too short to waste being dishonest to yourself and miserable.

Good luck.

http://www.outpostnine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1396 <- original text.

I find that the post is a good reference and provide some answers to stuff that I've been wondering about all this times. So what are your opinion on the post?

[Pierrot le Fou]

You know, reading through it as a disconnected observer (or as the person who wrote it) really makes me realize how much my perception towards this country has changed in the two years since I've been here. Clearly I can't follow all my own advice perfectly, but the fact that those would be my recommendations to people coming is unbelievable to me.

I haven't been back 'home' for over two years now. I am going to go through severe reverse culture shock when I do visit home this winter. I have been seriously changed by my experience here, some for the better, and some for the worse. I have gained probably a bit of a drinking problem, but also a different perspective from which to view the world, and a Hell of a lot more patience.

It's scary for me to think about sometimes, only in the sense that a lot changes daily that you don't see happening until you look at it in the long-term.

[Kinsao]

That is an excellent, excellent article. I am not in a position to judge, never having visited Japan, but it makes good sense to me, and echoes many of the thoughts I have had when talking with (or reading) friends who are mad keen on their idea of Japan.



EDIT: Should maybe go in the "culture shock" section?

[Mike Cash]

Seeing a period of two years referred to as "long term" is really making me feel my age....

[Mikawa Ossan]

I thought the article was very insightful and well-written. The only problem I found with the article is that exactly the people who would most benefit from its advice are those least likely to take heed of its warnings. That is of course no fault of the author.

Many people seem to have some impression of Japan as some special mythical place, but naturally the truth is different. Especially if you join the JET Programme and are sent to some little community in the middle of nowhere.

Japan is a difficult place to live in as a foreigner. It's much better than it was even just 6 years ago, but it's still not easy. If you want to fit in, it's even harder.

So I give kudos to the author and the poster. I hope that many of the younger members here take the time to read it seriously.

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by Pierrot le Fou

I have always loved languages. I studied French in elementary school at a bilingual French/English school in the US. I studied Spanish in middle school as well as high school. I have been interested in Japan since the Ninja Turtles and the Karate boom of the 80's, and was egged along through high school with exposure to Japanese games and cartoons, which I had been previously exposed to but didn't realize them as Japanese products.

When I got to college, I floundered around searching for something that would grab my interest, and took a smattering of courses in all subjects, from anthropology, to logic, to higher level math (linear algebra), to Constitutional law and religion. I took Japanese my second year along with some science and more math, to round out the base of politics and science.

It seems that we share quite a lot in common.

Originally Posted by Pierrot le Fou

As I said, most of the people on JET fall into one of those two categories -- those who think it's an easy job that will allow them to put off real work for a while and do something fun, and those who have this image of Japan as a focus of their studies and interests and want a chance to experience it first hand.

I didn't come on the JET programme, but I also teach English (and French and Italian). Like you, I am neither in the Japan-fanatic group nor in the "easy-job" one. I just came because of my wife, because I like experiencing life in different countries, and because I had various childhood or adolescence interests in Japan (martial arts, anime, video games...). Like you I like learning languages. So our position was quite similar from the start. My hobbies in Japan were mostly to learn everything related to traditional and modern Japanese culture, the language, the economy, politics, or whatever there was to learn. I kill my freetime managing this website, which is also a great way to release one's stress and discuss about culture shock or anything on your mind. Would have been much harder without the internet as I am not a party kind of guy, and don't even drink much alcohol (almost exclusively during meals out with friends).

I also had my share of disappointment about Japan. It was not as beautiful or as developed (legally and socially, especially) as I thought. Then :

Originally Posted by Pierrot le Fou

I was entirely wrong. The intelligent, the motivated, the driven, the tolerant, the exceptional -- those are the people I met in the US. And the average, well, the average is the same everywhere.

I had the same experience. My image of the Japanese people I had met abroad was much better than in Japan itself, with a few exceptions. The Japanese with whom I get on the best are those who have lived abroad and are somehow disatisfied with Japanese society as it is now.

Originally Posted by Pierrot le Fou

Can you swallow your pride?

This has got to be one of the most important questions for anyone living in Japan. Japanese culture is focused around preserving the 和【わ】 (wa, social harmony), and that means that sometimes you have to swallow your pride and apologize when you did no wrong, or hold your tongue when someone says something stupid, or tone down your argument against a wrong to prevent a friendly meeting from turning into something a little more hostile or uncomfortable.

I can't swallow my pride in the way you said. But that's not so bad for my job, as I don't have a boss or supervisor (I teach individual or small group lessons in companies or cafes). Social harmony is something very artificial based on rigid social conventions, flattery and hypocritical politeness. It not necessarily good for society as it creates a lot of stress even for the Japanese who grew up knowing only this system. My wife's main reason to want to live outside Japan is the huge pressure that this system puts on everyone's shoulders. I usually find many (Japanese) people who agree about that, so I don't care too much about it. Anyway, as everybody says, a foreigner in Japan will always be considered as an outsider ("gaijin") to the system, and is not supposed or expected to do like the Japanese. It's of course easier to say when one doesn't have to fear being fired by a Japanese boss.

[DoctorP]

I think that one problem with the JET program lies in hiring people straight out of college with little work experience. Many of the people who fail, never had the tools needed to succeed in the first place! You expect someone to jump into a job with little supervision, or supervised by someone who speaks a totally different language and do a good job? Add to that you take someone from a college campus and give them a steady paycheck in a foreign country and your surprised that many of them become drunkards? Then you blame this on the country that they are living in? The problem doesn't lie with Japan, it lies with the week minded individuals who get themselves into something that they are not at all prepared for!

I have long said that the JET program would be better off if they would raise the age requirements and drop the need for a degree. You would end up with more mature people who really want to be here, and have the drive and desire to do a good job. (for the most part) Then again...you would occasionally get some old pervert who is only interested in teenage girls (or boys)...but the system will weed those guys out and they will get what they deserve!

*(sits back and waits to see how many people I pissed off!)

[advigilo]

intresting thread

[Pierrot le Fou]

Originally Posted by mikecash

Seeing a period of two years referred to as "long term" is really making me feel my age....

To my credit, I never referred to two years as 'long-term,' it's certainly long enough to have lived here, seen much of what life is, and have the pendulum swings of culture shock get smaller and smaller to give me a relatively balanced perspective.

I cannot see myself as an expat or any sort of 'true' long-termer, because it just doesn't mesh with me. I don't really like the Japanese system, not in a bitter 'it is horrible!' way, but in a 'this isn't the place for me' sort of way. I wear a medium long shirt, and in Japan I have to get at least a large so it's long enough. I'm sure it works for lots of people, but it just doesn't fit me quite right.

As far as the people who need to read this being likely to ignore it, you're quite possibly right, but if it changes even one person's mind and prevents them from diving in over their head, then it was worth the time, eh? And if it gets us folk already living here to give our experiences here another thought, that's an added bonus. And considering the amount of thought (read: 10-15 minutes of typing) that I put into writing it, it helped me flesh out my ideas of what Japan is and isn't to me.

And that's good too.

God only knows where the next 5 years will take me...

[Mike Cash]

Originally Posted by Pierrot le Fou

To my credit, I never referred to two years as 'long-term,'

Upon close inspection of the thread, I find that you didn't directly do so. But I'm sure you can see how "It's scary for me to think about sometimes, only in the sense that a lot changes daily that you don't see happening until you look at it in the long-term." led to that impression.

As far as the people who need to read this being likely to ignore it, you're quite possibly right

I can't possibly be right about that; I never said it.

[xerxes99]

The closer i get to leaving for Japan the more anxious and nervous i get. Thank you so much for posting this article. I have a feeling it will be very helpfull.

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by xerxes99

The closer i get to leaving for Japan the more anxious and nervous i get. Thank you so much for posting this article. I have a feeling it will be very helpfull.

If you come as a tourist, there is no need to worry. This list of advice (with which I wholly agree) is mainly for people going to live in Japan and work there for a Japanese company, and possibly far away in the countryside (where other foreigners are few and far between, and the risk of depression greater). Anyway, people who know JREF and have Internet at home in Japan have little chance of getting depressed. I think all JET program participants should be given an Internet connection with JREF as their homepage. Whenever there is a problem (culture shock or else), we are here to talk about it !

[lastmagi]

Thank you very much for the thoughtful piece, Pierrot and Rio. I thought it was a great refresher on the realities of being in Japan.

As a JET applicant, I've done some research on the programme. I've realized that the programme is not the best and that there are still lots of problems with it, like the bureaucratic nature of some of the higher-ups and the inability to speak out against things you wouldn't like. Still, I, too, have an interest in the language. I've only taken one year of the language, but I've already discovered that I love actually learning new grammar points and new ways to make sentences (of course, I'll probably change my mind once I get to the Politeness Level and Colloquialisms parts!). Besides the language (since JETs aren't allowed to speak in Japanese in the classrooms anyway), I'd also love to be able to teach the kids, since I'd like to be seen as a role model of sorts, if possible. And then there's being able to experience another culture (a vague statement, I know), and to meet new people.

Of course, being just an applicant, my mind's been more on the selection process than the culture shock.

I cannot see myself as an expat or any sort of 'true' long-termer, because it just doesn't mesh with me. I don't really like the Japanese system, not in a bitter 'it is horrible!' way, but in a 'this isn't the place for me' sort of way. I wear a medium long shirt, and in Japan I have to get at least a large so it's long enough. I'm sure it works for lots of people, but it just doesn't fit me quite right.

I can see that myself. While I am outwardly able to swallow my pride, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to handle certain differences, such as the emphasis on "social harmony," and the lack of legal or social progress, as Maciamo pointed out. The JET programme to me, if I get in, isn't intended as a goal in itself, but just a means to enrich my experiences.

[Mike Cash]

Originally Posted by Maciamo

If you come as a tourist, there is no need to worry. This list of advice (with which I wholly agree) is mainly for people going to live in Japan and work there for a Japanese company, and possibly far away in the countryside (where other foreigners are few and far between, and the risk of depression greater). Anyway, people who know JREF and have Internet at home in Japan have little chance of getting depressed. I think all JET program participants should be given an Internet connection with JREF as their homepage. Whenever there is a problem (culture shock or else), we are here to talk about it !

Out of curiosity....I wonder how many people on JREF lived in Japan before personal computers proliferated and when the internet (for common folks, anyway) didn't yet exist.

[Elizabeth]

I can see that myself. While I am outwardly able to swallow my pride, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to handle certain differences, such as the emphasis on "social harmony," and the lack of legal or social progress, as Maciamo pointed out. The JET programme to me, if I get in, isn't intended as a goal in itself, but just a means to enrich my experiences.

I don't mean to play naysayer, but anyone ambivilant about social harmony and conventional behavior may want to look for another language and culture to fulfill those interests. Getting to a competent level of fluency before going will absorb the unpleasant or difficult parts of the system to a very large extent....but most people who pursue the language to that level are in it for a very specific reason. As everyone so far has mentioned, Japanese life for foreigners is a never ending project and an awful lot of time and effort to put into something 'for the experience' or 'personal growth' without being sure of what you'll ever get in return.

[lastmagi]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

I don't mean to play naysayer, but anyone ambivilant about social harmony and conventional behavior may want to look for another language and culture to fulfill those interests. Getting to a competent level of fluency before going will absorb the unpleasant or difficult parts of the system to a very large extent....but most people who pursue the language to that level are in it for a very specific reason. As everyone so far has mentioned, Japanese life for foreigners is a never ending project and an awful lot of time and effort to put into something 'for the experience' or 'personal growth' without being sure of what you'll ever get in return.

I understand as much. I was simply being realistic about my endeavors. I think any kind of cultural change won't be picture-perfect, and that I ought to be aware of what I'm getting into, just as I would if I were to try any other culture. Also, from the passage I quoted, I was drawing more along the lines of the viability of any long-term prospects, not something that is a year or so long as in the JET Programme.

Perhaps, I came off too strongly when I said "wouldn't be able to handle certain differences." Yes, it annoys me whenever I read about foreigners being discriminated against in Japan, and no change coming about to fix that. Yes, it annoys me when there are some politicians propogandizing to the people and influencing their opinions. Those were in fact what I was referring to (not that these are found only in Japan, of course- only in a different way). But as a prospective short-term resident, my goal is not to push some political or social reform agenda (not that I'd be able to do it in the long-term, anyway). Certainly, these things may affect me, and I should be aware of them, but I'm in it for the experience.

I guess we'll see, though. After all, as the mantra goes, ESID.

[Tokyo-K1]

This is a very interesting thread, it helps break down the myths and brings things back down to earth with regard to how people view Japan.
Many view Japan as some utopian society, but like any other country it will have its own share of problems. I would expect it to be even more so for a "foreigner" living in Japan. Japan is still a relatively ethnically homogenous country and that coupled with it's strict work culture with low tolerance for failure can put huge pressure on the individual.

I've never been to Japan myself, so I guess my opinion here doesn't count as much weight, but for the time being I would refrain from moving to Japan. That is until one gets a good grasp of the language, culture and norms in their society. Diving headfirst into a new surrounding without proper preparation is foolhardy regardless of what country it is.

[xerxes99]

Originally Posted by Maciamo

If you come as a tourist, there is no need to worry. This list of advice (with which I wholly agree) is mainly for people going to live in Japan and work there for a Japanese company, and possibly far away in the countryside (where other foreigners are few and far between, and the risk of depression greater). Anyway, people who know JREF and have Internet at home in Japan have little chance of getting depressed. I think all JET program participants should be given an Internet connection with JREF as their homepage. Whenever there is a problem (culture shock or else), we are here to talk about it !

I'll be in Osaka for at least year. Thanks for the advice Maciamo. I definitely plan on using JREF as often as I can while im there.

[Maciamo]

Originally Posted by Tokyo-K1

Many view Japan as some utopian society, but like any other country it will have its own share of problems.

I wouldn't say "like any other country". A Westerner in Japan is much more likely to encounter "problems", such as lasting culture shock, difficulty to be accepted, etc. than in any Western country (Latin America included). I have never had so many things to disagree with when I was living in Italy, Spain, Germany or Britain. In fact, I hardly feel like I am abroad in these countries, apart from the language, food, architecture and a few different customs. In Japan, the differences run much deeper than that.

Japan is still a relatively ethnically homogenous country and that coupled with it's strict work culture with low tolerance for failure can put huge pressure on the individual.

The "strict work culture with low tolerance for failure", I think, is a false stereotype. I also had this image of Japan before coming and quickly realised that it the work culture and tolerance to failure were in fact much more relaxed than what I had been used to. The working pace is slower and more relaxed in Japan, which is why they manage to work longer hours. Many people just "wait" for the boss to finish as it is good manners not to let the boss be the last to work (alone) in the office.

As for tolerance to failure, it is so high that people do not fail at school (i.e. almost nobody ever repeats a year, even with very poor results), and people do not get fired, even when their work performance are poor ("job for life" mentality oblige, but also because the law makes it very difficult to fire someone due to performance). Regarding school, that is why people who have learnt English for 6 years and still cannot make an easy sentence manage to graduate. Likewise, I have met many people who do not know many of the "basic" 1945 joyo (daily use) kanji, even among college graduates.

[Pierrot le Fou]

In Elementary and Junior High School, you cannot fail. You cannot be put in detention. You cannot be disciplined or sent out of the room. You cannot be held back. In High School, you can be expelled from one school, but you will just be sent to another school, and while you can fail, it is almost entirely impossible to be kicked out against your will.

It's the same with companies. It's almost impossible to get fired from a salaried position in Japan. They will try to force you to resign yourself, by passing you over for promotions, giving you grunt work to do all day, ignoring you in the office, but it is VERY rare that you will simply be told to pack up your desk because you're fired.

Japan is nothing like the perception of 'nose to the grindstone' workers we have. Sure they work more hours, but in comparison to the US, it's a cakewalk in the average office.

[Mike Cash]

Two points:

1. I've seen at least a half dozen Japanese coworkers fired.
2. Long-standing foreign conceptions to the contrary, not everybody in this country works behind a desk.

[Pierrot le Fou]

But most people in salaried positions do. The manual labour is generally part-time hourly labour -- not a full-time job. There are exceptions, but in general, desk-jobs are the norm for the majority of the salaried populace. Be it in a company in the private sector, or a bureaucrat, most folk over 30 are employed behind a desk.

And what jobs have you seen these coworkers fired from? What kind of company is it? And what reason were they fired for?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Actually at the hotel/wedding company I worked at, hardly anyone worked behind a desk as you say. Just the people at the honsha. And no, it wasn't a small company, either.

I know of one guy who got fired for inflating his sales numbers.

[Mike Cash]

Originally Posted by Pierrot le Fou

But most people in salaried positions do. The manual labour is generally part-time hourly labour -- not a full-time job.

I beg to differ about manual laborers "generally" being part-time workers. And about them being "hourly" labor either, for that matter.

There are exceptions, but in general, desk-jobs are the norm for the majority of the salaried populace. Be it in a company in the private sector, or a bureaucrat, most folk over 30 are employed behind a desk.

And you base that assertion on what, exactly? It sounds like the sort of misinformation one would pick up from an orientation manual or something.

And what jobs have you seen these coworkers fired from?

Truck driving.

What kind of company is it?

I'll let you guess.

And what reason were they fired for?

Incompetence. Being unreliable. Bad attitude. Stuff like that.

[DoctorP]

I have only one worker who sits behind a desk and she is the secretary. Everyone else works a full shift in temperatures normally 10-15 degrees (F) hotter than the outside temp. Oh...and everyone is subject to be fired based soley on performance!