Unpopular personal characteristics in Japan

[godppgo]

Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.


1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill


Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?

[MeAndroo]

Wow, what if someone were all of them.

This list combines classic negative attributes (lying, excessive complaining, abuse of alcohol) with some that helped build the civilized world. Opportunists, dreamers, debators...these people push science, medicine, political change, industry. I guess I just don't see why those characteristics would be hated.

In America, there's bound to be people who hate each of them, and people who openly endorse each one. I personally dislike 5 and 6. I've been screwed by property owners before, but I've also had good ones who perform their duties well. Complaining is a personal pet peeve since I tend to be somewhat of a cynical optimist, if that makes sense.

People with good social skills...there needs to be more of those.

[nice gaijin]

I'm not sure if you can really characterize all Japanese by saying that they hate specific types of personalities, but a running theme in all those things listed is that they could be described as tertiary producers, or not productive at all. In feudal Japan, the caste system went Samurai, Peasants, Artisans, then Merchants. The order of the latter three is interesting, as the peasants were the primary producers (farmers etc) who were the least expendable (everyone needs what they produce), the artisans built stuff and were important but not as essential, and the merchants just sold stuff; they typically made a good amount of money and did the least production, and in essence were less necessary to society than the others. Most of the characteristics you listed would fall under this latter category.

[nurizeko]

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.

[MeAndroo]

Originally Posted by nurizeko

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.

Did this happen to you? I'm curious to know if you're referring to food or something, because I used to tell my host family I didn't like stuff all the time and they just thought it was funny. And this was long after the novelty of me being a gaijin seemed to have worn off.

[Kinsao]

I don't see why someone would hate an opportunist unless people are jealous because they feel like they had a lucky break, maybe...?

Drunk... haha... that's ironic... everyone dislikes other people's drunk behaviour, but who hasn't done it some time?

Dreamer: I can see the way of thinking, negative aspects, someone who is a dreamer and never actually does anything.

The same with debator; of course it has good and bad things about it, someone who questions and uses their brain, but also it can mean someone who is likely to argue just for the sake of it and stir things up.

I don't think anyone likes complainers or liars.

Ah... number 7... I know what you mean... like recruitment consultants? (No offence meant to any recruitment consultants on here! If you want to fight me, take it outside!)

Yes, and rent collectors too are never the most popular people!

I honestly don't see why someone with good social skill would be disliked... -- unless it's jealousy.

In the UK I think that the most disliked are 5, 6, 7 and 8.

[Flashjeff]

I don't get it. Why would anyone hate a person with good social skills? I'd think that particular trait would be admired instead.

As for dreamers, without them, man wouldn't have split the atom, flown to the moon, created wonders in the fields of art and music, developed medicines to combat diseases, or invented the technological marvels that have helped make our lives better. That also makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by godppgo

Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill
Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?

Could we please know the book from which this came? I don't know about any of my fellow forumites/forumers, but I'd sure like to know the author of that which you've quoted here. Thank you.


.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Originally Posted by suirai

Could we please know the book from which this came? I don't know about any of my fellow forumites/forumers, but I'd sure like to know the author of that which you've quoted here. Thank you.
.

I'd also like to know the original Japanese for #9.

[godppgo]

Originally Posted by suirai

Could we please know the book from which this came? I don't know about any of my fellow forumites/forumers, but I'd sure like to know the author of that which you've quoted here. Thank you.
.

The book title is called 日本人の行動様式 by 荒木博之. Here's a link to the Kinokuniya online store if anyone's interested in finding out more:

http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/gues...IPS=9840118471

I am not sure if there is an English translated version but the book was first published in 1992 so there might exist one. I am about 1/3 through the book and there are some really interesting observations about Japanese. Some I find too theoretical to be practically applied to the Japanese general public.

[godppgo]

Originally Posted by Flashjeff

I don't get it. Why would anyone hate a person with good social skills? I'd think that particular trait would be admired instead.

I think the reason for that is because someone who has good social skills are generally talkative and not afraid of showing themselves which is in the opposite of traditional asian value that showing individuality is a bad thing to do. Conforming to group is most important and showing individuality is a act of placing yourself ahead of the group. This thinking might sound ridiculous in today's world but I did notice asians in my class (including myself) back in high school and university tend to be more quiet and ask far less questions to teachers than others.

[godppgo]

Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan

I'd also like to know the original Japanese for #9.

I read the Chinese translated version of the book. The Chinese description for #9 is 高級的社交手挽. I think 高級 in Japanese Kanji means high class or superb. 社交 means socializing. However, I don't know the appropriate Japanese word for 手挽 which means technique (more for soft skills not hard skills). Maybe someone on this forum can provide a translation for it.

[godppgo]

Originally Posted by nurizeko

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.

Yeah you are suppose to suppress your anger or dislike under any circumstances. The priority in this kind of situation is to maintain a peaceful harmony (hence the name 大和民族 which the Japanese called themselves) rather than expressing your "real" opinion.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

Originally Posted by godppgo

The book title is called 日本人の行動様式 by 荒木博之. Here's a link to the Kinokuniya online store if anyone's interested in finding out more:
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/gues...IPS=9840118471
I am not sure if there is an English translated version but the book was first published in 1992 so there might exist one. I am about 1/3 through the book and there are some really interesting observations about Japanese. Some I find too theoretical to be practically applied to the Japanese general public.

This book was published in 1979.
In Japan, it is an end of high growth.


http://books.yahoo.co.jp/book_detail/00724933

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by godppgo

Yeah you are suppose to suppress your anger or dislike under any circumstances. The priority in this kind of situation is to maintain a peaceful harmony (hence the name 大和民族 which the Japanese called themselves) rather than expressing your "real" opinion.

I wouldn't say under any circumstance...but anyway, in the absense of any context this list is almost too random and self-serving to deserve further comment. Opportunism, dreaming, debating complaining and lying I personally would associate more strongly with the Chinese temperment, maybe that is what the author was also tacitly implying.

[Dekamaster]

Geez. The book's old (that's my age already). Probably the content would be pretty much outdated too.

[godppgo]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

Opportunism, dreaming, debating complaining and lying I personally would associate more strongly with the Chinese temperment, maybe that is what the author was also tacitly implying.

This could be a valid guess as most Japanese's life philosophy came from the Chinese. The biggest difference between Japanese and Chinese is that Japanese are willing to accept changes while the Chinese are living in the past. I think the main reason those disliked personalities are pointed out by the author is to remined the Japanese how out-dated their traditional thinkings are in today's world. Just another example of Japanese's self-judging nature.

[Ma Cherie]

I think you're right about how some Asians don't speak up in class. I see that alot in my courses. We can be having a very deep discussion on an issue and I would never hear one of the Asian students speak up.

I think I'm going to have to question those qualities that the average Japanese person tends to dislike. I mean, number two in particular. Aren't some japanese salarymen supposed to go to a bar with calleagues and get drunk to take the stress off from working a whole bunch of hours a week?

[kirei_na_me]

Drunk?!

That's pretty funny considering the fact that almost all the Japanese people I know drink pretty heavily.

From my experience, I'd say the most hated is the debater. All the Japanese people I know despise arguing about something. They just can't take it. Complainer is way on up there too.

[Flashjeff]

Originally Posted by godppgo

I think the reason for that is because someone who has good social skills are generally talkative and not afraid of showing themselves which is in the opposite of traditional asian value that showing individuality is a bad thing to do. Conforming to group is most important and showing individuality is a act of placing yourself ahead of the group. This thinking might sound ridiculous in today's world but I did notice asians in my class (including myself) back in high school and university tend to be more quiet and ask far less questions to teachers than others.

Well, that's really fascinating, but I think it's also something of a generalization. I like to think I have good social skills, but I'm not all that chatty. You don't have to be talkative to be sociable. While conforming seems to be important, it does take away from one's own sense of uniqueness and individuality, turning one into a lemming. But, given that book is over 25 years old, perhaps things have been updated since then.

[Hideki_Matsui_Beast]

Yikes! I'm all of those except number eight, I think.

Maybe that's why the only Japanese person I know in real life doesn't like me.

[epigene]

Originally Posted by Hiroyuki Nagashima

This book was published in 1979.
In Japan, it is an end of high growth.
http://books.yahoo.co.jp/book_detail/00724933

As Nagashima-san points out, I think it is outdated. Japan underwent an economic boom and collapse after that and the rise of young and talented business entrepreneurs represented by Masayoshi Son of SoftBank on one end and Horie-mon (of Livedoor) on the other (despite his failure). Japanese outlook toward society has changed a lot. Even Prime Minister Koizumi has shown support to non-traditionalists.

1. Opportunist: I think this is received positively as people who take on risks to succeed.
2. Drunk: Accepted because so many like being drunk. Personally, I think there is no cure for Japanese love to get drunk to relieve stress... Even women do now!
3. Dreamer: Acceptable now for reason stated in (1)
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot): There are a lot of debators on TV now. They're not exactly welcome but have won recognition.
5. Complainer: People no longer are hesitant to complain.
6. Liar: I don't think anybody likes liars.
7. 仲介業者 (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent): The fact that there are still people who support Horiemon I think suggests people who make money in brokerage are being accepted as professionals. (There are those, especially the young, who think he was just unlucky for not being skillful enough to evade laws.)
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living): Everyone wants to be one.
9. Person with good social skill: I think it depends on what you define as "good." People with truly good social skills are well liked, I think.

[yukio_michael]

Originally Posted by nurizeko

Apparently making a passing statement in japan like; "oh, i dont like this after having tried it" is tantamount to insulting their family honour or something.

I've just found, more closely from living with a Japanese girl, that individual likes and dislikes are much less encouraged than say--- just going with the flow and eating natto or cabbage or whatever, despite the fact that you just don't like it.

Other people may not care, but your significant other has a special interest in nagging you into the person whom they'd like you to be. Just my observations.... ;)

...As for drunks, I can't imagine Japan without a healthy population of plastered train passengers just trying to get themselves home.

[misa.j]

Originally Posted by yukio_michael

...As for drunks, I can't imagine Japan without a healthy population of plastered train passengers just trying to get themselves home.

Neither can I. You see at least 3 or 4 of them in each car after 9 oclock. It would be funny if they made one car for only drunks like how they did for women.

[Elizabeth]

5. Complainer: People no longer are hesitant to complain.

By no longer, I suppose is meant to pertain mostly to young people -- although there may be fewer Japanese every year that can accept pain and hardship gracefully without whining or griping and expecting to have everything go their way, there are still enough in my experience to make a significant cultural impact. My own preferences, though, also fall into a pattern of less personal freedom and a more hikame and majime society so I wouldn't like to see any of the qualities entirely reversed.