Is English a fair language in an intercultural communication?

osias · Jun 7, 2006, 21:38

My Question is:

Is English a fair language in an intercultural communication?

English is a mother tongue for some, a second/third etc. language for others. The acquisition of the language costs more (in terms of effort, time, and money) for the latter, while one's own language is sufficient for the former. The acquisition is more difficult, when one's mother tongue has very little in common with the target language.

Those who speak (write) English as a non-native speaker are placed at a disadvantage when it comes to a discussion on a forum like this one. The language blocks Japanese people's access to the forum, but this is JAPAN FORUM!

What do you think?

leonmarino · Jun 7, 2006, 22:43

Originally Posted by osias

Those who speak (write) English as a non-native speaker are placed at a disadvantage when it comes to a discussion on a forum like this one. The language blocks Japanese people's access to the forum, but this is JAPAN FORUM!

I think there are plenty of forums out there where you can discuss similar matters in any language you like, including Japanese. Besides, this forum does have a Japanese section.
For the purpose of this forum, which is in my opinion to discuss Japanese matters concerning land, culture and language, an international language as English is well-suited. Japanese people willing to join the discussion have already learned English or are learning it, and can improve their skills here. Moreover, I find it a nice way to get to know people and value-adding to this forum.
Having said that, I don't really understand what point you are trying to make in this matter; what do you think Osias?

Elizabeth · Jun 8, 2006, 00:44

I agree with oasis on the point that writing in Japanese in a forum about Japan should not be penalized anywhere -- by native or non-native speakers.

That said, though, I can only recall one or two cases of Japanese members wanting very much to express very long and complex political or historical opinions, outside of the Japanese subforum, and they were allowed to go through because machine translators are obviously ineffective and as long as a human is willing to do paraphrase and partially interpret....there's not a rule in place that would stop them.

As leon pointed out, it's just an issue doesn't seem to arise on JREF all that frequently...I'm sure having a greater Japanese presence here would be very enlightening to many who have never been there. On the other hand, having those discussions in Japanese goes on many places elsewhere and is not going to impact anyone that can't or isn't interested in learning to read them.

osistlk · Jun 9, 2006, 04:15

Elizabeth, are you a professor or something...

osias · Jun 15, 2006, 16:08

The whole world should learn to speak Japanese, so that the Japanese who don't speak english can communicate with others without learning english.

Just kidding.

But English isn't a neutral language at all. It just happened to be the most common language for a historical reason.

leonmarino · Jun 15, 2006, 16:10

Originally Posted by osias

But English isn't a neutral language at all. It just happened to be the most common language for a historical reason.

Can I ask you what is a neutral language in your perspective, and why?

**Glenn** · Jun 15, 2006, 16:15

How about Esperanto? But even that leans heavily towards the Romance languages.

dreamer · Jun 15, 2006, 20:21

if France didn't make a mistake centuries ago, French would be the most taught foreign language by now :P
J/K
I don't think people don't want to use japanese, but a big part of the members here are teens or young people who are fascinated by japan and who've never been there. I for instance am only able to understand very basic sentences so reading a political subject is out of question for me.
Of course, if my japanese was better I wouldn't mind it, since I am myself quite interrested in the language, but life has made it quite difficult for me to have the time to learn japanese so I'll stick with english for the moment... ^^'

Kaleikuiha · Jun 16, 2006, 07:53

Elizabeth is correct... but if you want to talk about what language is neutral then try at Latin, Greek, Cletic, German.... those are far more neutral in europian languages... but here on the Wired I think all languages are fairly = !
Ja ne.

JimmySeal · Jun 16, 2006, 08:31

Anyone who wants a Japan forum in Japanese is welcome to create one. This one happens to be in English and is accessible to English speakers who may or may not be able to speak Japanese.

I think the renowned linguist Mario Pei said something along the lines of - People can spend lifetimes squablling over which language is simpler than another, etc, but what to do if you want an international language is just pick one and go with it, no matter which one. - As it were, English happens to be, for the most part, occupying that role at the moment currently because the largest economy in the world is in an English-speaking country.

I have no problem with people using Japanese here, but the concept that, "This is a forum about Japan so people should be allowed to use Japanese instead of English," is faulty logic.

GodEmperorLeto · Jun 17, 2006, 14:28

Even though English isn't the easiest language on Earth to learn, it isn't incredibly hard for Europeans to learn it. It is Indo-European, so it has much in common with both Romance languages (especially since it was heavily influenced by French) and German (a sister-tongue).

But English is tough for Japanese speakers to learn. We have phenomes that they don't... many phenomes. We have about 15 distinct vowel sounds, and regional accents may add 1 or 2 more. Japan has 5 vowel sounds. In addition, English (being an Indo-European language) has definite and indefinite articles, and a very lacksidaisacal utilization of them (especially when compared to German, French, ancient Greek, etc), while Japanese doesn't. English has plural and singular forms of nouns and verbs. And English also has more verb tenses (I think, but I may be wrong). Add to that, English has an enormous vocabulary drawn from 1000 years of loan-words from French, Greek, Latin, German, Celtic, etc.

If anything, Japanese is probably easier to learn how to speak than English.

**Glenn** · Jun 17, 2006, 15:57

I think the term you want is "phones." By the way, it's not "phenomes" but "phonemes."

Jun 7, 2006, 21:38	#1
osias Banned Join Date: Apr 4, 2006 Posts: 233	Is English a fair language in an intercultural communication? My Question is: Is English a fair language in an intercultural communication? English is a mother tongue for some, a second/third etc. language for others. The acquisition of the language costs more (in terms of effort, time, and money) for the latter, while one's own language is sufficient for the former. The acquisition is more difficult, when one's mother tongue has very little in common with the target language. Those who speak (write) English as a non-native speaker are placed at a disadvantage when it comes to a discussion on a forum like this one. The language blocks Japanese people's access to the forum, but this is JAPAN FORUM! What do you think?

Jun 7, 2006, 22:43	#2
leonmarino Back Join Date: May 19, 2006 Location: Rotterdam - ロッテ Posts: 1,070	Originally Posted by osias Those who speak (write) English as a non-native speaker are placed at a disadvantage when it comes to a discussion on a forum like this one. The language blocks Japanese people's access to the forum, but this is JAPAN FORUM! I think there are plenty of forums out there where you can discuss similar matters in any language you like, including Japanese. Besides, this forum does have a Japanese section. For the purpose of this forum, which is in my opinion to discuss Japanese matters concerning land, culture and language, an international language as English is well-suited. Japanese people willing to join the discussion have already learned English or are learning it, and can improve their skills here. Moreover, I find it a nice way to get to know people and value-adding to this forum. Having said that, I don't really understand what point you are trying to make in this matter; what do you think Osias?

Jun 8, 2006, 00:44	#3
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,513	I agree with oasis on the point that writing in Japanese in a forum about Japan should not be penalized anywhere -- by native or non-native speakers. That said, though, I can only recall one or two cases of Japanese members wanting very much to express very long and complex political or historical opinions, outside of the Japanese subforum, and they were allowed to go through because machine translators are obviously ineffective and as long as a human is willing to do paraphrase and partially interpret....there's not a rule in place that would stop them. As leon pointed out, it's just an issue doesn't seem to arise on JREF all that frequently...I'm sure having a greater Japanese presence here would be very enlightening to many who have never been there. On the other hand, having those discussions in Japanese goes on many places elsewhere and is not going to impact anyone that can't or isn't interested in learning to read them. __________________ たとえ辛くても、永遠に続く苦しみなどないでしょう。

Jun 9, 2006, 04:15	#4
osistlk A #1, Duke o' Oakton Join Date: May 28, 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 47	Elizabeth, are you a professor or something... __________________ -- osistlk Are they supposed to be ghost?

Jun 15, 2006, 16:10	#6
leonmarino Back Join Date: May 19, 2006 Location: Rotterdam - ロッテ Posts: 1,070	Originally Posted by osias But English isn't a neutral language at all. It just happened to be the most common language for a historical reason. Can I ask you what is a neutral language in your perspective, and why?

Jun 15, 2006, 16:08	#5
osias Banned Join Date: Apr 4, 2006 Posts: 233	The whole world should learn to speak Japanese, so that the Japanese who don't speak english can communicate with others without learning english. Just kidding. But English isn't a neutral language at all. It just happened to be the most common language for a historical reason.

Jun 15, 2006, 16:15	#7
Glenn 考え中 Join Date: Jan 8, 2004 Posts: 5,544	How about Esperanto? But even that leans heavily towards the Romance languages. __________________ Avoid Mojibake! -- 文字化けを避ける！ Dictionary at Goo - English-Japanese, Japanese-English, Japanese Language Teach Yourself Japanese and Teach Yourself Japanese Message Board Jim Breen's online dictionary and kanji lookup

Jun 15, 2006, 20:21	#8
dreamer Traveler of eternity Join Date: Aug 15, 2003 Location: Tokyo/Asakusa Age: 26 Posts: 1,825	if France didn't make a mistake centuries ago, French would be the most taught foreign language by now :P J/K I don't think people don't want to use japanese, but a big part of the members here are teens or young people who are fascinated by japan and who've never been there. I for instance am only able to understand very basic sentences so reading a political subject is out of question for me. Of course, if my japanese was better I wouldn't mind it, since I am myself quite interrested in the language, but life has made it quite difficult for me to have the time to learn japanese so I'll stick with english for the moment... ^^' __________________ One of the most adventurous things left for us is to go to bed. For no one can lay a hand on our dreams....

Jun 16, 2006, 07:53	#9
Kaleikuiha フリクル Join Date: Aug 3, 2003 Location: 東京大学 Age: 33 Posts: 41	Elizabeth is correct... but if you want to talk about what language is neutral then try at Latin, Greek, Cletic, German.... those are far more neutral in europian languages... but here on the Wired I think all languages are fairly = ! Ja ne.

Jun 16, 2006, 08:31	#10
JimmySeal Tubthumper Join Date: Mar 5, 2006 Location: Japan Age: 27 Posts: 1,301	Anyone who wants a Japan forum in Japanese is welcome to create one. This one happens to be in English and is accessible to English speakers who may or may not be able to speak Japanese. I think the renowned linguist Mario Pei said something along the lines of - People can spend lifetimes squablling over which language is simpler than another, etc, but what to do if you want an international language is just pick one and go with it, no matter which one. - As it were, English happens to be, for the most part, occupying that role at the moment currently because the largest economy in the world is in an English-speaking country. I have no problem with people using Japanese here, but the concept that, "This is a forum about Japan so people should be allowed to use Japanese instead of English," is faulty logic.

Jun 17, 2006, 14:28	#11
GodEmperorLeto Veni, vidi... vicodin? Join Date: Jun 4, 2006 Location: Busan, S. Korea Age: 30 Posts: 519	Even though English isn't the easiest language on Earth to learn, it isn't incredibly hard for Europeans to learn it. It is Indo-European, so it has much in common with both Romance languages (especially since it was heavily influenced by French) and German (a sister-tongue). But English is tough for Japanese speakers to learn. We have phenomes that they don't... many phenomes. We have about 15 distinct vowel sounds, and regional accents may add 1 or 2 more. Japan has 5 vowel sounds. In addition, English (being an Indo-European language) has definite and indefinite articles, and a very lacksidaisacal utilization of them (especially when compared to German, French, ancient Greek, etc), while Japanese doesn't. English has plural and singular forms of nouns and verbs. And English also has more verb tenses (I think, but I may be wrong). Add to that, English has an enormous vocabulary drawn from 1000 years of loan-words from French, Greek, Latin, German, Celtic, etc. If anything, Japanese is probably easier to learn how to speak than English. __________________ Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

Jun 17, 2006, 15:57	#12
Glenn 考え中 Join Date: Jan 8, 2004 Posts: 5,544	I think the term you want is "phones." By the way, it's not "phenomes" but "phonemes."

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