Death: Let's discuss it.

[DoctorP]

I am interested in everyone's ideas of death. How do you deal with the death of someone close to you?

How is death handled in your country? Is it celebrated, mourned?

Do you look at death as a new beginning or the absolute end?

I do not wish to bring in the full gambit of religious beliefs in this thread, but I am more interested in how things are done where you are from, or where you are living now and also how you cope with the loss.

[RockLee]

I had to deal with death of family twice in 6 years time. In the beginning it hurts, and you ask yourself why it had to happen. Then after a while I kind of accept what happened and get on with my life. I think it's an end, but at the same time a beginning too for the people who are involved. They have to start living without that person, and that can be tough sometimes.

[Elizabeth]

It isn't something I've had to suffer directly in the last few years but I do tend to be extremely angry or withdrawn at first and the biggest source of comfort is usually keeping close to anything the person left behind....gifts, momentos, or the spaces they lived in....

If it was a difficult relationship with a lot of disapproval on both sides it can also be a time of maturation and relief to start living your own life for what you want on your own terms.

[DoctorP]

I lost my mother when I was 12...that one hit hard. I lost my father this week, and it hit much harder.

We will have a viewing of the body in the evening, and then a funeral the next day to place him in the ground. Years ago, we used to do the whole "sitting up with the dead" scene but most people have gotten away from that. I have just been wondering what some of the other countries represented here do.

[nurizeko]

I dunno, as a scientific mind and an atheist, I cant claim to believe in an after-life because it hasnt been proven scientifically to exist.

But I'de like to think science provides for another plane of existance where our conciousness goes after physical death.

As for the funeral and events surronuding death, my granpda died a while back, not too long though, just last year...Even if i wanted to talk about it i wouldnt know where to begin...someone I loved died, i had to come to terms with that, move on.

In Britain death is generally mourned, people are generally buried in the ground, thecoffin lowered into the ground via cords that chosen members of the family hold a lower slowly.

I remember the funeral service being strangely "spiritual" as if I could almost sense god or something, if thats understandable, I reckon it was just my state of mind, but, durring the service, I reckon I could feel like my grandpa was there letting me and others know that he had a good full life and that he was happy and well.

Or it could have just been the way the afternoon light came through the windows and my general attraction to the area, Ballatar church is nice.

Sorry, I really wish I could discuss this topic better but, I cant really explain or want to the finer points of the only funeral i've been to.

I just accept it as a fitting farwell to someone I loved, and leave it at that.

[Da Monstar]

Death is neither a beginning or an end. It's just different.

I haven't been to many funerals, actually none of my relatives died recently. My granddad died when I was about 6, so even though I was close to him at the time, I couldn't really grasp the fact that he was dead. So I really didn't mourned him. I really don't believe I have ever mourned anyones death, due to the fact that no one of those who are really close to me has ever passed away. Except ofcourse my pets. My 10 year old dog died thursday last week. I've had him around since I was 8 so he had kinda been a close "Friend". Though I didn't mourn him the least. Of course you feel the empty space left behind by the dead. But You don't really feel sad though. Just different.

With regards to death. I Don't see it as something so be scared of, nor feel sad for when someone close passes away. I myself believes that I will take my place in Valhalla when I die, depending on how I live my life. Likewise I see that every other soul will pass on to whatever place awaits them when they die.

Maybe we all just drifts away in the skies... Maybe there is a little piece of sky for all of us.

[cursore]

Relationship with death is something really personal and intimate, personally I had to deal with it few times:
The first time I was going to meet my brother in the market place where he used to work and just before a corner I saw briefly something cutting the air in front of me, it was a girl who had dropped herself from the 8th floor, one step more and she would have killed me.
The second time was my father, he left home just before Italy 90 world cup he discovered he had cancer and he preferred not to involve the family with it, he died
In 93 I visited his tomb 7 years later, I haven’t missed him so much maybe because he was not playing a big part in my life, or maybe I just preferred to forget about it.
Third time my dear Aunt Angelina, she was the most lovely person I ever met, she died suddenly in February 98 I was in an exchange programme in Scotland with my college, I haven’t been informed about it, my mother told me the same way she told me about my father, in the morning she got into my room sit beside the bed and gave me the news. I was ok with that, she was on her 80s and she had some health problems due an “accident” in WWII , so I thought her life was fulfilled.
The fourth time was my mother turn in October 2000 but this time, the news arrived by a civil servant of the consulate, I had to keep my self in one piece and fly down from Scotland to Italy at the last really last minute. And here I had to prepare everything:
I went to the agency for the funeral order the coffin and the car for transportation, check the paper of the autopsy and sign for the release of the body on my name (for legal liability), the funeral was fixed at the local church, fortunately the priest didn’t charged me I was already in deep red with my finances for paying the other expenses, after the funeral we went to the crematory in Rome is located on the widest cemetery called Prima Porta. A small village of the death, I gave the coffin to the clerk and he signed off the paper for legal liability and fixed the day for the cremation (at the time cost 500’000 liras (250 Euros)) and I had to do it just for reason of space in our family tomb.
On the Cremation day I went there with a friend it was quite sunny I think, the company who runs this service is the same one, which run the street cleaners and waste system in Rome (called AMA) so the feeling by leaving your most precious person to them is terrible (cannot find another word). Anyway once I signed off the authorization for the cremation I had to get outside for security reason, I clearly remember the with smoke out of the chimney, it was my mother, I had to wait 2 hours before coming back to the cemetery office and sign (yes again) another 2 pieces of paper, one for the confirmation of the cremation and the second to authorise the prima porta cemetery to transport the ashes for you to the cemetery of destination, I could have taken them by my self but it would have involved more and more paperwork.
I used the two hours to go and search for my father tomb; he is buried there just enough time to find it, even if I had the address from the cemetery office, it was strange seeing his face on a picture after 10 years altogether (I have no picture of my dad), in Italy we stic a ceramic picture of the dead on this/her tomb.
Few days after I finally went to the Monumental Cemetery of Verano as my mother’s family is an old Roman Family we have a space there, thing now impossible, done 2 or more hours of queue for more paperwork and more expenses to finally sign a really old piece of paper, my signature was below my grandfather ones. That’s it that was the last piece of paper I had to sign up to! By that time I was sick of them I could not had time to grief in peace.
On the same day I went to the guy, who decorates the tomb, his father recognised my uncle and he told him something that gave a sense of being human beside all the bureaucracy. He said, “Are you bringing me Beppino back?” referring to my other uncle died in the 50’s due a car accident, they were friends.
It took me 6 years to admit to my sister how much I missed our mother, I have to say that I managed to overcome it emotionally only thanks to religion , in this time I have done many things practically from recovering to the financial hardship to buy a house but, in my heart I did really need religion beliefs to overcome the void left by her death.

[leonmarino]

I havn't really been confronted with death yet. Although I am 26 years old I havn't been to a funeral. I have lost some relatives over the years but I guess the ties in my familiy are very, very loose or even non-existent.

Cursore's story tells us the awkward side of death (beside the sincere sadness) and it reminds me of a story of a friend of mine who lost his father a while ago.

Just a day after his father's death the fight over his belongings began and caused some major stir-ups in the family.. I find it very hard to believe that people can be so cruel (or shall I say greedy) that they make use of the sadness amongst people to try and gain some money or other material stuff.

Another friend of mine lost her grandmother a while ago, and a certain person in that family also tried to divide the belongings in her favor, while throwing away things that were precious to my friend, because to the certain person the things had no value.. I find it sick.

[Uncle Frank]

the more you deal with death. In a sense, my job deals with death quite often, especially Hospice cases. I usually have my patients for 3 months or more and become close friends with most of them. Between work and personal friends dying, I have attended over 500 funerals and I think I still cry a bit at each one. I tell myself the person is no longer in pain and suffering, now it is the family & friends who hurt.
I still feel a bit guilty that the death that hit me hardest in my whole life was my cat, Butch Catsidy. For some reason my cat's death was much harder to deal with then either my mother or father's death?
I look at my own death without fear, just hope it is quick and painless like most people. The death I fear most will be the death of my wife, I can not picture life without her after 29 years togeather.

Frank

[Nana007]

In the past few years my family has had many deaths. Two of which hit me very hard, the death of my Uncle and My Grandmother. My Uncle's death hit me hard because It was really unexpected, and he was so young. He went in the hospital because he fell down the steps and broke his leg, a week later was dead. I still really dont know the exact cause of death but I do know that he did have prostate cancer. But the cancer was really latent, he never got sick or anything because of it. It hit all of the family very hard, I guess cause he was the glue of our family.
My grandmother died a year after. It still hurt but in a way it was a relief, she was very sick in her final years and bedridden. And it hurt worse to see what was a lively joyful woman so weak and helpless, than to see her dead in her coffin.
Being from New Orleans we can't bury people in the ground. My family isn't rich enough to afford a Masoleum, but we do have a family plot, that has been in the family for 60 years, it can hold up to two people at a time. Here is a quote taken from http://www.experienceneworleans.com/deadcity.html that explains how its done

Here is a question for you -- how can you bury more than one family member in each vault? How can a tomb hold all of those coffins? According to a local ordinance, as long as the previously deceased family member has been dead for at least two years, the remains of that person is moved to a specially made burial bag and put to the side or back of the vault. That coffin is then destroyed and the vault is now ready for the newly deceased family member.
What happens if a family member dies within that two year time restriction? Generally, local cemeteries are equipped with temporary holding vaults and the newly deceased family member is moved into their final resting place when the time restriction is met.

As far as anyspecial things we, we have the second line. Also called a Jazz Funeral. Which is basically after the funeral service, but before the burial we go and parade/march around the deceased's neighboorhood with a brass band, and the hearse follows the band and people. Second lines can often get very lively, although they start off very grim and sad, the music and the marching goes from sad to very happy. My mom once even told me a story about a second line she was at where the deceased was a loyal patron to a bar, well they went to the bar and took the coffin parading into the bar and actually SLID THE Coffin across the Bar. So yea the can get lively. But this actually comes from a saying we have "When a person is born, you cry for that person is being born into a world of pain. When that person dies you laugh for he is going home to the Father"

[changedonrequest]

Originally Posted by CC1

I lost my mother when I was 12...that one hit hard. I lost my father this week, and it hit much harder.

We will have a viewing of the body in the evening, and then a funeral the next day to place him in the ground. Years ago, we used to do the whole "sitting up with the dead" scene but most people have gotten away from that. I have just been wondering what some of the other countries represented here do.

CC1 first condolences to you and your family on your father's passing away.
I hope it was peaceful for him.

Here in Okinawa "sitting up with the dead" is still in practice, last week one of my students a 12 yr old boy died, his HRT stayed with the family the entire night after he was brought back home from the hospital. The next morning the body was taken for cremation and the funeral was held at a local temple.

Have you ever been to an Okinawan funeral?

[DoctorP]

Nana007 Thank you for your reply. I am from Alabama, so I am aware of the parades in NO, as I have seen them many times.

Here in Okinawa they place their dead in tombs. One tomb may hold many generations! It is quite strange that on a small island they choose to use tombs which are beginning to take up a lot of space.

Hachiro...I have observed several funerals here, but never actually atttended one. Only one close friend has passed since I have lived here and I was unable to attend. Thanks for your wishes and the reply.

[changedonrequest]

I have been to a number of funeral's here in Okinawa and the practices are pretty much the same, whether they are held at a temple or at the deceased home.

The death notice is placed in the newspaper on the day of the funeral, usually they are held between 3 and 6 P.M..

The people attending the funeral bring a "koden-bukuro" in which is placed a small amount of money, usually between 1,000 and 3,000 yen. The people line up and when they get to the front of the line they bow to the remains of the deceased which are in an urn accompanied by a large picture of the deceased. Then one would bow to the family of the deceased and folding one's hands in a gesture of prayer, bow slightly and with the right hand take a small pinch of incense raise it to one's head and then place it in the burner placed next to the tray holding the inscence. Depending on the number of people attending this is repeated up to three times, if there is a large gathering only one time is necessary. After placing the incense in the burner, you would bow again to the deceased and then to the family and turn around and take your leave.

After leaving the people attending to the funeral, similar to a funeral palor attendant, will hand you a small package which contains a small package of salt, a card with a message on it, and usually a "gift" for attending the funeral. Nowadays the "gift" is usually a small hand towel.

After the funeral is over one would not go directly home. According to supersition to go directly home after a funeral one would be bringing the dead home with you. First you might stop off at a Lawson or some place like that and then go home. Upon returning home you would have someone from inside the house come out and open the small package of salt and have them toss some of the salt over your shoulders or back. This is also a superstition about warding off the spirits of the dead.

Appropriate attire for attending funerals here is black, either a white shirt with black tie, or recently quite popular due to the heat in Okinawa, all black kariyushi wear.

Following the funeral there is also something called the "shi-ju-ku-nichi", a series of gatherings after 7 days, 14 days and 49 days. Plus there are gatherings for the 1st, 3rd, 7th, and 13th year after a person dies.

That also does not include the remembering of the dead during "obon". Also during the year following the death of a family member the family does not "celebrate" any major holidays like New Years, or Birthday's out of respect for the desceased.

[DoctorP]

My workers tried to give me a koden-bukuro, but I had to refuse. I felt so sad having to refuse it.

[RockLee]

I can understand you for refusing, but it's Japanese tradition to give money to the family of the deceased person after somebody died. I think you did nothing wrong refusing it CC1

[changedonrequest]

Originally Posted by CC1

My workers tried to give me a koden-bukuro, but I had to refuse. I felt so sad having to refuse it.

Did you have to refuse it because of your position? I also hope that if that was the case, that they understand, or at the minimum have someone explain to them the reason why you had to refuse.

I understand your feeling sad about the situation, they were trying to show their support for you in your time of saddness.

[DoctorP]

I had accepted one from my friends and my kendo group, but since I am their boss, I had to refuse. My secretary explained to them this morning before I left for my flight.

[Kinsao]

I've been to a lot of funerals (although not as many as Frank!), but not all of them were for family members. Among my relatives I have lost all my grandparents, my great-aunts and -uncles, an uncle and my father.

We are Catholics, so for family members we had a fairly 'traditional' Catholic funeral, with the body being received into church the night before the funeral and remaining there overnight (without people staying over), and a funeral service the following day. Most of my relatives have been buried, although a few were cremated and I have attended at a number of other cremations of friends/acquaintances. I have of course attended at many not Catholic funerals, which seemed to take place in a similar atmosphere, generally in a church or the chapel at the crematorium, with prayers and readings, and someone speaking about the dead person. (I have not yet attended at a completely 'non-religious' service.)

As regards family funerals, it is customary for almost everyone attending to come back to the house of a relative afterwards, for a buffet and kind of party, and actually that's usually quite fun! In spite of the sad occasion. But, I'm lucky in that my family mainly gets on pretty well, even 'long lost' relatives that we don't see for ages, but in some circumstances I can imagine it can get pretty tense, with emotions running high, especially after a bit to drink and if there's a lot of money involved.

As regards coping with someone's death afterwards, well, obviously my father's death was the hardest, but maybe the fact that he'd been sick for about a year made it easier to deal with in a way, because we could mentally prepare ourselves (not that it seems any easier at the time, but you know what I mean).

Unconnected with any belief about 'afterlife' or any such thing, I had a very strong feeling that my father was not very far away. I don't mean the feeling that someone is about to walk in the door or something - we're all familiar with that, a very natural illusion. I can't even explain in any logical or scientific way, the impression that the person is still existant in some way not perceptible to us. (I have to say, I have absolutely no belief in 'ghosts' or anything like that, nor am I at all the kind of person who 'senses presences' or any other such super-sensitive nonsense.)

I do think that the kind of death very much influences our feelings after the event. I know of a number of people extremely distressed, naturally, if someone has died in pain; and of course a sudden death is always a horrible shock. My family was lucky in the sense that my father had the opportunity to use his death in a very positive way. In fact, during his last 6 weeks or so he seemed to exert a kind of magnetism or radiance that kept drawing people - friends and acquaintances as well as relatives - to his hospital room, and several people actually told me that the experience had transformed their lives in some way (how, I am not sure!). I consider myself to be privileged to have learnt valuable lessons from the experience.

I am not one of those who is uncomfortable talking about death, but I would hope to be sensitive to other people's feelings about that, too.