Not sure..but..

kewute · Sep 24, 2006, 02:21

I have a book (レインボー英会話辞典 "The Rainbow Dictionary of English Conversation") designed for Japanese people staying in a foreign country (rather than foreigners), and on the page with an illustration of the bean scattering ceremony there's a sentence 鬼は外. 福は内. the author has the furigana saying おにはそと. ふくはうち. but whenever I read it without the furigana I always read 内 in that sentence as ない ...is that a serious problem or does it matter?

Mikawa Ossan · Sep 24, 2006, 08:48

Doubtless you know that many kanji have more than one reading. It just so turns out that if you use the wrong reading at the wrong time, you become pretty much unintelligible. If you were to read that as "nai" and I heard it, my first reaction would be that you're saying 鬼は無い or "There are no oni." So you see how things quickly get confusing.

**Mars Man** · Sep 24, 2006, 10:34

Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan

Doubtless you know that many kanji have more than one reading.

And that, my dear forum friends, is why I can't verbalize what few Chinese characters I do know--I've been too lazy (and busy with living) to remember which reading goes when.

At the same time, it is one thing that I do NOT like about the Japanese adoption of the Chinese script. Why couldn't they just have made one reading for each !!!!

kewute · Sep 25, 2006, 05:28

Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan

Doubtless you know that many kanji have more than one reading. It just so turns out that if you use the wrong reading at the wrong time, you become pretty much unintelligible. If you were to read that as "nai" and I heard it, my first reaction would be that you're saying 鬼は無い or "There are no oni." So you see how things quickly get confusing.

Oh, okay, thanks, I'll try to be more careful about that.

At the same time, it is one thing that I do NOT like about the Japanese adoption of the Chinese script. Why couldn't they just have made one reading for each !!!!

I like it just the way it is, I mean, if there was only one reading for each kanji, could you imagine how many more kanji would be needed just to make up for those?!

Elizabeth · Sep 25, 2006, 05:43

I like it just the way it is, I mean, if there was only one reading for each kanji, could you imagine how many more kanji would be needed just to make up for those?!

Yeah, the spoken language was obviously around long before anyone had ever heard of kanji and to keep the general meaning and idea corresponding to each symbol or compound within a general range instead of dividing them strictly phonetically....well, you'd either have a lot more or a lot less, plus the on-yomi readings from Chinese changed a lot by period when they were imported, so it's one thing to be incredibly grateful about.

Kinsao · Sep 25, 2006, 05:58

One thing that is a pain about the readings, though... which I haven't come across very often, but I have seen it sometimes... is that occasionally there are compounds of 2 kanji, and the compound can be pronounced in 2 different ways, with a subtlely different meaning, but using exactly the same kanji. What's with that?!

(Unfortunately I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I assure you I've seen these in my dictionary!

) That really confuses me, because normally I use placement to judge which reading to use... whether the kanji is on its own, or with others, etc... but that way, there is no way of knowing...

Elizabeth · Sep 25, 2006, 06:14

Originally Posted by Kinsao

One thing that is a pain about the readings, though... which I haven't come across very often, but I have seen it sometimes... is that occasionally there are compounds of 2 kanji, and the compound can be pronounced in 2 different ways, with a subtlely different meaning, but using exactly the same kanji.

Even if the meaning doesn't differ, a lot do have alternate pronounciations substituting other ON or a KUN reading (either with wholly different meanings or diff. parts of speech etc). Some also have phantom syllables inserted between the compounds for speech that aren't always rendered in a standard way. Or due to some historical quirk are otherwise totally unknowable from the written form.

That really confuses me, because normally I use placement to judge which reading to use... whether the kanji is on its own, or with others, etc... but that way, there is no way of knowing...

It works smoothly maybe 80-85% of the time, the rest just have to be learned. Kanji is only something to get through as a means to an end in my view anyway, not something that has a great deal of meaning or import in and of itself (-- is that too funny ?....themselves, rather).

leonmarino · Sep 25, 2006, 14:36

I see the others already told you; many kanji have several different readings. In this case 内, it can be read as either "uchi" or "nai". I think when it is a stand-alone kanji, it must be read as "uchi".

家の内　（いえのうち）： Inside the house (spatial)
雨の降らない内　（あめのふらないうち）： While it's not raining (temporal)

When it's compounded with other kanji it is often read as "nai".

機内　（きない）： Inside the plane (literally: inside the machine)
案内　（あんない）： Guide (literally: within a plan/scheme)

But, Japanese wouldn't be Japanese without exceptions.

身内　（みうち）： relative, family circle (literally: inside the body)

As with many exceptions, there are more normal readings than the exceptions, so I think it's safe to say it's "uchi" stand-alone and "nai" when compounded.

nice gaijin · Sep 25, 2006, 21:39

kanji lesson aside, the concepts of "soto" and "uchi" are very important to Japanese culture; 調べた方がいいんでしょう。

kewute · Sep 26, 2006, 06:24

Thanks a lot, definitly more clear now than ever. =]

Sep 24, 2006, 02:21	#1
kewute Junior Member Join Date: Sep 20, 2006 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 11	Not sure..but.. I have a book (レインボー英会話辞典 "The Rainbow Dictionary of English Conversation") designed for Japanese people staying in a foreign country (rather than foreigners), and on the page with an illustration of the bean scattering ceremony there's a sentence 鬼は外. 福は内. the author has the furigana saying おにはそと. ふくはうち. but whenever I read it without the furigana I always read 内 in that sentence as ない ...is that a serious problem or does it matter? Last edited by kewute; Sep 24, 2006 at 05:43. Reason: forgot two kanji >.<

Sep 24, 2006, 08:48	#2
Mikawa Ossan 一寸先は光 Join Date: Sep 17, 2005 Location: 中西部 Posts: 3,520 Blog Entries: 51	Doubtless you know that many kanji have more than one reading. It just so turns out that if you use the wrong reading at the wrong time, you become pretty much unintelligible. If you were to read that as "nai" and I heard it, my first reaction would be that you're saying 鬼は無い or "There are no oni." So you see how things quickly get confusing. __________________ Chukyo Dai Chukyo bansai!!!!

Sep 24, 2006, 10:34	#3
Mars Man Kami-sama Join Date: Jul 28, 2005 Posts: 4,292 Blog Entries: 1	Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan Doubtless you know that many kanji have more than one reading. And that, my dear forum friends, is why I can't verbalize what few Chinese characters I do know--I've been too lazy (and busy with living) to remember which reading goes when. At the same time, it is one thing that I do NOT like about the Japanese adoption of the Chinese script. Why couldn't they just have made one reading for each !!!!

Sep 25, 2006, 05:28	#4
kewute Junior Member Join Date: Sep 20, 2006 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 11	Originally Posted by Mikawa Ossan Doubtless you know that many kanji have more than one reading. It just so turns out that if you use the wrong reading at the wrong time, you become pretty much unintelligible. If you were to read that as "nai" and I heard it, my first reaction would be that you're saying 鬼は無い or "There are no oni." So you see how things quickly get confusing. Oh, okay, thanks, I'll try to be more careful about that. At the same time, it is one thing that I do NOT like about the Japanese adoption of the Chinese script. Why couldn't they just have made one reading for each !!!! I like it just the way it is, I mean, if there was only one reading for each kanji, could you imagine how many more kanji would be needed just to make up for those?!

Sep 25, 2006, 05:43	#5
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,505	I like it just the way it is, I mean, if there was only one reading for each kanji, could you imagine how many more kanji would be needed just to make up for those?! Yeah, the spoken language was obviously around long before anyone had ever heard of kanji and to keep the general meaning and idea corresponding to each symbol or compound within a general range instead of dividing them strictly phonetically....well, you'd either have a lot more or a lot less, plus the on-yomi readings from Chinese changed a lot by period when they were imported, so it's one thing to be incredibly grateful about. __________________ たとえ辛くても、永遠に続く苦しみなどないでしょう。

Sep 25, 2006, 05:58	#6
Kinsao Horizon Rider Join Date: May 8, 2005 Location: England Age: 30 Posts: 7,419	One thing that is a pain about the readings, though... which I haven't come across very often, but I have seen it sometimes... is that occasionally there are compounds of 2 kanji, and the compound can be pronounced in 2 different ways, with a subtlely different meaning, but using exactly the same kanji. What's with that?! (Unfortunately I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I assure you I've seen these in my dictionary! ) That really confuses me, because normally I use placement to judge which reading to use... whether the kanji is on its own, or with others, etc... but that way, there is no way of knowing... __________________ K to the core

Sep 25, 2006, 06:14	#7
Elizabeth Regular Member Join Date: Apr 22, 2003 Location: アメリカ Posts: 8,505	Originally Posted by Kinsao One thing that is a pain about the readings, though... which I haven't come across very often, but I have seen it sometimes... is that occasionally there are compounds of 2 kanji, and the compound can be pronounced in 2 different ways, with a subtlely different meaning, but using exactly the same kanji. Even if the meaning doesn't differ, a lot do have alternate pronounciations substituting other ON or a KUN reading (either with wholly different meanings or diff. parts of speech etc). Some also have phantom syllables inserted between the compounds for speech that aren't always rendered in a standard way. Or due to some historical quirk are otherwise totally unknowable from the written form. That really confuses me, because normally I use placement to judge which reading to use... whether the kanji is on its own, or with others, etc... but that way, there is no way of knowing... It works smoothly maybe 80-85% of the time, the rest just have to be learned. Kanji is only something to get through as a means to an end in my view anyway, not something that has a great deal of meaning or import in and of itself (-- is that too funny ?....themselves, rather).

Sep 25, 2006, 14:36	#8
leonmarino Back Join Date: May 19, 2006 Location: Rotterdam - ロッテ Posts: 1,070	I see the others already told you; many kanji have several different readings. In this case 内, it can be read as either "uchi" or "nai". I think when it is a stand-alone kanji, it must be read as "uchi". 家の内　（いえのうち）： Inside the house (spatial) 雨の降らない内　（あめのふらないうち）： While it's not raining (temporal) When it's compounded with other kanji it is often read as "nai". 機内　（きない）： Inside the plane (literally: inside the machine) 案内　（あんない）： Guide (literally: within a plan/scheme) But, Japanese wouldn't be Japanese without exceptions. 身内　（みうち）： relative, family circle (literally: inside the body) As with many exceptions, there are more normal readings than the exceptions, so I think it's safe to say it's "uchi" stand-alone and "nai" when compounded.

Sep 25, 2006, 21:39	#9
nice gaijin Resident Realist Join Date: Aug 8, 2005 Posts: 3,686	kanji lesson aside, the concepts of "soto" and "uchi" are very important to Japanese culture; 調べた方がいいんでしょう。

Sep 26, 2006, 06:24	#10
kewute Junior Member Join Date: Sep 20, 2006 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 11	Thanks a lot, definitly more clear now than ever. =]

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