Notion of ALL LOOK SAME (ALLLOOKSAME.com). is it really true?

[Color red]

Since many of us has taken the test of alllooksame.com designed by dyske, who first made this site as a joke, we can perhaps talk about it with something more credible than picking 6 persons out of a billion of japanese, chinese, and korean population. Science, whether you like it or not, is one way to evaluate alllooksame.com (http://www.alllooksame.com), and its benchmark performance.

I have collected and organized the random materials posted on many related sites, and would like to present them here for your information. Please let us know if, after you read the materials on this thread, you still think ALL LOOK SAME, or otherwise.

I will also put a few genetic materials for your information though these are already posted on other threads. (Please see Japanese ethnicities and genetics.)

[Please compare to alllooksame site]

Genetics



[Please compare to alllooksame site]

PNAS | August 28, 2001 | vol. 98 | no. 18 | 10244-10249
The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity
R. Spencer Wellsa,b, Nadira Yuldashevaa,c, Ruslan Ruzibakievc, Peter A. Underhilld, Irina Evseevae, Jason Blue-Smithd, Li Jinf, Bing Suf, Ramasamy Pitchappang, Sadagopal Shanmugalakshmig, Karuppiah Balakrishnang, Mark Readh, Nathaniel M. Pearsoni, Tatiana Zerjalj, Matthew T. Websterk, Irakli Zholoshvilil, Elena Jamarjashvilil, Spartak Gambarovm, Behrouz Nikbinn, Ashur Dostievo, Ogonazar Aknazarovp, Pierre Zallouaq, Igor Tsoyr, Mikhail Kitaevs, Mirsaid Mirrakhimovs, Ashir Charievt, and Walter F. Bodmera,u

ABSTRACT
The nonrecombining portion of the human Y chromosome has proven to be a valuable tool for the study of population history. The maintenance of extended haplotypes characteristic of particular geographic regions, despite extensive admixture, allows complex demographic events to be deconstructed. In this study we report the frequencies of 23 Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphism haplotypes in 1,935 men from 49 Eurasian populations, with a particular focus on Central Asia. These haplotypes reveal traces of historical migrations, and provide an insight into the earliest patterns of settlement of anatomically modern humans on the Eurasian continent. Central Asia is revealed to be an important reservoir of genetic diversity, and the source of at least three major waves of migration leading into Europe, the Americas, and India. The genetic results are interpreted in the context of Eurasian linguistic patterns.




Fig. 1. Geographic distribution of Y-chromosome haplotypes in selected Eurasian populations. Evolutionarily related haplotypes were combined to clarify their display. Colors are those shown in Table 1.

[Please compare to alllooksame site]

Cranial Morphology

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/171305898v1

Published online before print July 31, 2001, 10.1073/pnas.171305898

Anthropology
Old World sources of the first New World human inhabitants: A comparative craniofacial view
C. Loring Brace*,, A. Russell Nelson*,, Noriko Seguchi*, Hiroaki Oe§, Leslie Sering*, Pan Qifeng¶, Li Yongyi, and Dashtseveg Tumen**
* Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, 1109 Geddes Avenue, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; Department of Anthropology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071; § Department of Statistics, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; ¶ Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, 27 Wangfujing Dajie, Beijing 100710, China; Department of Anatomy, Chengdu College of Traditional Chinese Medicine, 13 Xing Lo Road, Chengdu, Sichuan, People's Republic of China; and ** Department of Anthropology, Mongolian Academy of Sciences, Ulaanbaatar-51, Mongolia

Communicated by Kent V. Flannery, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, June 18, 2001 (received for review January 2, 2001)

Abstract
Human craniofacial data were used to assess the similarities and differences between recent and prehistoric Old World samples, and between these samples and a similar representation of samples from the New World. The data were analyzed by the neighbor-joining clustering procedure, assisted by bootstrapping and by canonical discriminant analysis score plots. The first entrants to the Western Hemisphere of maybe 15,000 years ago gave rise to the continuing native inhabitants south of the U.S.-Canadian border. These show no close association with any known mainland Asian population. Instead they show ties to the Ainu of Hokkaido and their Jomon predecessors in prehistoric Japan and to the Polynesians of remote Oceania. All of these also have ties to the Pleistocene and recent inhabitants of Europe and may represent an extension from a Late Pleistocene continuum of people across the northern fringe of the Old World. With roots in both the northwest and the northeast, these people can be described as Eurasian. The route of entry to the New World was at the northwestern edge. In contrast, the Inuit (Eskimo), the Aleut, and the Na-Dene speakers who had penetrated as far as the American Southwest within the last 1,000 years show more similarities to the mainland populations of East Asia. Although both the earlier and later arrivals in the New World show a mixture of traits characteristic of the northern edge of Old World occupation and the Chinese core of mainland Asia, the proportion of the latter is greater for the more recent entrants.



Fig. 4. A dendrogram based on the samples used to construct Fig. 3, plus a Bronze Age Mongolian group and four others from the Western Hemisphere. (A) The neighbor-joining method was used on 1,000 bootstrap samplings to generate the pattern displayed. (B) The relationships among the groups are also displayed by canonical discriminant function scores. The first discriminant function accounts for 48% of total variation, and the second accounts for 16%.

http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/brown99.pdf

The first modern East Asians ?:
another look at Upper Cave
101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
Peter Brown
Department of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology
University of New England
Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia


Lower left is close to the present day han chinese.

MINATOGAWA 1
The Minatogawa 1 male skeleton was found in 1970 at the
Minatogawa limestone quarry on Okinawa (Suzuki and Hanihara 1982).
111
The first modern East Asians?: another look at Upper Cave 101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
Three female skeletons, in varying states of preservation, and assorted
other fragments were also recovered. The Minatogawa skeletons have
been described in detail in Suzuki and Hanihara (1982), with Suzuki
(1982) describing the crania. Additional comparative information can
be found in Baba and Nerasaki (1991). The Minatogawa 1 cranium is
not as complete as Liujiang and Upper Cave 101, particularly in the
basi-cranium, facial skeleton and temporal regions. Several of the
dimensions used in the analysis to follow had to be estimated.
Unlike Liujiang and Upper Cave there does not appear to have
been any concern over the reliability of the dating of Minatogawa.
Radiocarbon dates of 18,250 ±650 to 16,600 ±300 years BP were obtained
from charcoal inside the fissure (Kobayashi et al. 1974). Fluorine content
of human and non-human bones within the site suggested that they
were contemporaneous (Matsu’ura 1982). Assuming that the site was
well stratified, that the carbon dates do bracket the skeletons and that
the skeletons were not intrusive, then Minatogawa remains do have a
strong claim to being the earliest modern human skeletons in East Asia.



Overall, the scatter plot of Functions 1 and 2 indicate the relative morphological
similarity of the modern and Neolithic Chinese groups, while the
modern Japanese are closer to a wider range of East Asian and Native
American populations. Plots of the total group dispersions associated
with Figure 3 revealed the large degree of overlap between the Neolithic
and modern Chinese and between the modern Japanese, Anyang,
Hainan and Native American groups. The Eskimo and Ainu were more
distinct, as were both of the Australian Aboriginal groups.

Please note that northern and southern japanese are in the middle point between N/S chinese and ainu/jomon/minatogawa. This represents the japanese population
divided into the two completely diverged skull/facial structures.

[Please compare to alllooksame site]



The results show the average faces of east asian (and some other related)populations.

Please note the ainu/jomon (native japanese islanders) has a significant difference with han chinese population.



Contrast between Jomon and Yayoi japanese faces.

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[Color red]

Average (not necessarily typical) Korean face

http://www.andongkim.com/articles/20...koreanface.htm
Korean scientists allegedly produced what they call, "the average Korean face". The Korean Institute of Science and Technology information (KISTI) working together with the Catholic Institute for Applied Anatomy made computer tomographic scans of Koreans last year and with the aid of a supercomputer produced a "digital Korean" -- a 3-D video of the average Korean's physical structure.
[Please compare to alllooksame site by dyske]
Average (not necessarily typical) CHINESE face
http://www.angle.org/anglonline/?req...e=05&page=0393
Perception of Facial Esthetics by Native Chinese Participants by Using Manipulated Digital Imagery Techniques
Sample population
The Chinese rater group consisted of 85 native Chinese participants from Beijing. Of these raters, 38 were women, and 47 were men (45% women and 55% men). Their mean age was 26.3 ± 5.3 years.
Manipulated digital imagery technique
An adult native Chinese male and female stimulus face (A) was selected for digital distortion (Figures 1 and 2 ). Both subjects were 24 years old and were chosen because they exhibited Class I occlusions with average dental proclination and balanced lower facial skeletal proportions previously established as norms for this population. They were meant to be representative of the average facial profile for this ethnic group. Because the Chinese have a shorter than average anterior cranial base and a dental proclination greater than Caucasian norms, their “normal” profile would be classified, by Caucasian standards, as bimaxillary protrusive.29,30 This profile was selected as representative of the “normal” Chinese participant.

FIGURE 1. The “normal” Chinese male stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions

FIGURE 2. The “normal” Chinese female stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions
[Please compare to alllooksame site by dyske]

[Color red]

I came through previous threads on alllooksame.com. I cited Maciamo said something motivating the discussions on this topic.

Originally Posted by Maciamo

I insist that it's very possible to tell the difference between East Asians, for I have been several times to Korea and live in Japan. I flew quite a few times in planes composed half of Japanese and half of Korean and even flight attendant can usually tell the difference when they address someone (they have to know whether to speak in Korean or Japanese and rarely mistake). It is absolutely normal that Japanese can't tell the difference since most of them have never really thought about it or haven't been to Korea or China.

I did a little test, no later than last week in Incheon Airport (Seoul) trying to guess who was Japanese and who was Korean at the gate before boarding. I decided then approached to check what language they spoke. I got about 80% right. The hint is not in the clothes but in facial features, deeper and a bit more "Western" for Japanese, and rounder, flatter faces for Koreans. culture to recognise this. Koreans have squarer jaws too.

Some Chinese have darker or more "yellow" skin. They surely have squarer and harsher features than Japanese. This is certainly due to the life style and this difference is likely to disappear with time as Chinese will get richer and live more like Japanese. That is why, it's much more difficult to tell who's who if they live in the same country (Japan, US, etc). It's near impossible to tell a Korean or Chinese born and raised in Japan, because I believe the mentality (language) and lifestyle play the most important role in facial expression.The eyes and smiles are a bit different too. You need to know a bit of both

The last point on physical transformation by culture is weak, but I share much perceptions with him.
[Please compare to alllooksame site by dyske][/QUOTE]

[Color red]

There is a good description posted on the origin of japanese people thread. I would like to cite it here to represent one view held by non-east asian.

Originally Posted by konnyaku

...or is there something else that hinders her power of discernment?

I'm a white American guy, and even I can tell Japanese people apart from other Asians. To put it bluntly, most Japanese persons look like the hybrid offspring of a pair consisting of an East Asian and a southern European (Greek or Jew?). That's not to say that the Japanese are closely related to any extant European population; in fact, I am almost certain that they are very distant from each other in terms of line of descent. The fact remains, however, that morphologically at least, Japanese people have a relatively high incidence of certain physical traits that are extremely rare among other East Asian populations. I think this is likely to be due to "shared retention" by the ancestors of the Europeans and the Japanese aborigines of a certain suite of physical traits that was typical of the original Eurasians, while the ancestors of continental East Asians underwent several severe changes to their skeletal (and especially facial) morphology during their most recent stage of evolution. This scenario seems to be supported by the fact that ancient skeletons of modern humans found anywhere in Eurasia, and even the oldest human skeletons found in the Americas, all appear to possess rather Caucasoid morphology, and skeletons that exhibit the prototypical features of the Mongoloid race appear only later in the archaeological record.
I rarely have any difficulty distinguishing Japanese from Chinese or Koreans, but the continentals can be a troublesome bunch.

The unusual features of the Japanese that set them apart clearly in most cases from any of the continental East Asians are:

1) Japanese tend to have a more pronounced facial topography (i.e., a rather "bumpy" or "projecting" look to the face, such as around the eyebrows, rather than the smooth and flat contours of Chinese or Koreans)

2) Japanese tend to have a more perceptually salient nose. This can be either more salient in simply the degree of projection from the surface of the face, or more salient in terms of the total volume of the nose (i.e., including the width). In general, Japanese seem to exhibit a much greater variety of nose sizes and shapes than do continental East Asians, and I have met many Japanese who even have "bumpy" noses with several bulges and constrictions in the contour of the nose, as I have otherwise only observed in Europeans. Chinese and Koreans appear to have only smooth-contoured noses, regardless of whether they are flat and broad (as is common in southern Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) or narrow and slightly projecting. This feature is particularly relevant for distinguishing Japanese men from Chinese or Korean men, because women of every nationality tend to be rather paedomorphic when it comes to their noses.

3) Japanese people tend to have a diminutive lower facial region. They often have small jaws, which may be the direct cause of their propensity for having poor alignment of the teeth. Continental East Asians, on the other hand, seem to have huge jaws, flaring malars (cheekbones), and a generally large and imposing lower face when viewed from a Caucasian perspective.

4) Japanese people often have rather translucent skin, similar to that of Europeans, when they are not tanned. Therefore, Japanese people often have rosy cheeks and a generally healthy-looking complexion. When they do tan, they tend to take on a reddish-brown color. The Chinese and Koreans, on the other hand, are almost all cream- or beige-colored ("pasty") from the start, and they have completely opaque skin, so that it is impossible for them to have rosy cheeks and they always look sort of sickly unless they are tanned, in which case they take on a yellow-brown color.
As for distinguishing Chinese and Koreans by sight, I think it is quite difficult, but not impossible. They both have a propensity for big faces with a smoothly rounded outline, but Koreans tend to be more extreme in the width of their faces, so that they often have a nearly circular look, whereas Chinese tend to have more elliptical faces when viewed directly from the front. Chinese also more frequently have double eyelids and larger eyes that seem to bulge out of their (flat) sockets. Korean people tend to have very small eyes and no eyelid creases. Among East Asians, Chinese people also have a peculiar tendency towards prognathism, so that they often have bulging mouths that look somewhat reminiscent of black Africans. The big, bulgy eyes and mouth that appear so frequently among Chinese people seem to me to suggest some sort of affinity with populations of Southeast Asia. Also, I'm not totally sure about this, but I have a hunch that Koreans more frequently have a sort of oily shine to their skin, whereas Chinese people's skin tends to be more dull and dry-looking.

Please compare to alllooksame site by dyske

[Color red]

Courtesy of National Science Museum at Ueno/Shinjuku

Predicted distribution of Ainu/Jomon Japanese. The red stands for the Ainu ethnicity in modern japanese in molecular levels, and the yellow indicates the yayoi japanese.
Figures above shows the statistical distribution of jomon and yayoi people. High density of jomon dna markers is found in northern and southern japan including shikoku. This geographical trend in ethnic density is supported by recent genetics studies
Below, we will give some examples of people in north/south japan, who are thought to be similar to jomon people. Samples are taken from 19th century noble people whose ancestry went back to 20th-50th generations to north and south japan.

Northern Japanese
Mutsu Munemitsu, A minister of Foreign Affair

He is nothern japanese from the noblest family in northern japan.
His family tree is from Hiraizumi-Fujiwara clan (Emishi related Ainu).
His ancestor includes some figures like Date Masamune, and the origin of family dates back more than 1000 years ago,
The same person

Wife of Mutsu Munemitsu


Eastern Japanese
Katsu Kaishu, Admiral of the Shogun's fleet



PLEASE COMAPRE TO ALLLOOKSAME.com site by Dyske.

Southern Japanese

Togo Heihachiro, An admiral, A national hero in Japan-Russo War (no involvement in WWII)


Southernmost Japanese. His ancestor was a neighbor of koizumi's.

Togo Heihachiro in his 58 years old


Okubo Toshimichi, Revolutionary, A founder of Meiji Government
Born in Kagoshima, Southernmost Japan

He is the suppoter of domestic development and resisted the
"Conquering of Korea".

He suppressed regional rebellions by the former
samurai class that ended with the Satsuma Rebellion,
but was assassinated by a former samurai in 1878.

His background is middle-ranking samurai, and his phenotype
seems to be from the relation to Ryukyuan, native islanders.

The same person


Komura Jutaro, Minister of Foreign Affair, Harvard Graduate


Akiyama Saneyuki, Hero in Japan-Russo War, Vice-Admiral, died in 1918


Akiyama Yoshifuru, General, The founder of Japanese Cavalry


Last two people are southern-central (shikoku) japanese. I posted this because their phenotype is somewhere between japanese (jomon) and korean (yayoi), mixed. Very interesting

The first pic of komura can be representative of any japanese, but his background seems to be jomon.


Group of Ainu people, 1904 photograph, taken in Hokkaido Japan

From Wikipedia "Ainu People"
Due to intermarriage with the Japanese and ongoing absorption into the predominant culture, few living Ainu settlements exist. Many "authentic Ainu villages" advertised in Hokkaido are simply tourist attractions.

If you search the Ainu people over the Web, you will most likely see the fake Ainu people's picture.

[Please compare to alllooksame site]

[kuuzo]

I think the "all look same" quiz is only partially valid - those are for the most part pics of Asian Americans - lived the american lifestyle, eaten the american foods, had american health and dental care, and so on. I can tell Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese apart fairly easily after having lived in Honolulu and Japan for years simply because Korean diets, makeup, posture, etc., is different from Japanese diets, posture, makeup, etc. The differences aren't so much genetic (although some people just plain look like the "average" of where their ancesters came from - the common bone structure looks like the common bone structure of others of their ancestral decent) but a lot of it has to do with living in their respective countries - the manerisms, the makeup (women), posture, even the way they walk is idiosyncratic to the country they grew up in. So if you have enough experience in observing people from one country long enough, you can tell the differences. But you are less likely to tell the differences when they grow up in a completely different country - but some people still exibit the "traditional facial structure" of thier respective ancestral countries, and I don't think that can be disputed. As for the "phenotypes" of modern Japanese, there has been enough mobility in the last 100 years to invalidate a lot of that. Just my two cents.

[ghettocities]

I recognize Japanese people that I had briefly talked to in the streets years ago occasionally when I fly back.

They don't all look the same. I told a Japanese girl I was dating in America where she grew up before she had even told me.


Josh

[Color red]

Am J Phys Anthropol. 1989 Jan;78(1):93-113.
Reflections on the face of Japan: a multivariate craniofacial and odontometric perspective.Brace CL, Brace ML, Leonard WR.
Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 48109.
Craniofacial variables for modern and prehistoric Japanese were subjected to multivariate analysis to test the relationships of the people of Japan with mainland Asian and Oceanic samples. The modern Japanese are tied to Koreans, Chinese, Southeast Asians, and the Yayoi rice agriculturalists who entered Japan in 300 B.C. Together they make up a Mainland-Asia cluster of related populations. The prehistoric Jomon foragers, the original inhabitants of the Japanese archipelago, are the direct ancestors of the modern Ainu, who made a recognizable contribution to the warrior class--the Samurai--of feudal Japan. Together, they are associated with Polynesians and Micronesians in a Jomon-Pacific cluster of related populations. Jomon-to-Ainu tooth size reduction proceeded at the same rate as that observable in the post-Pleistocene elsewhere in the Old World.

[Color red]

A great thread I found on other forums.

Originally Posted by Gabe

A while ago an article, "The Samurai And The Ainu", was published in Scientific Frontiers. Unfortunatly, it only saw brief discussion.
It is my opinion that this matter is worth a closer look. Below, I have taken the liberty to provide links to information concerning the matter.

The first reference of the matter was found on Science Frontiers Online. The article can be found here. (http://www.science-frontiers.com/index.htm)

The SF article, The Samurai And The Ainu , was based on a story published in the New York Times. The story, Exalted Warriors, Humble Roots , written by John Noble Wilford was first published in the June 6th 1989 New York Times. This story can be found here. (http://knifelogic.com/NYT-EWHR%20JN%20Wilford.pdf) (Wilford, John Noble; "Exalted Warriors, Humble Roots," New York Times, June 6, 1989. Cr. J. Covey.)

Wilford's story was based on the findings of C. Loring Brace published in the American Journal of Physical Science. Brace's article, Reflections on the face of Japan: a multivariate craniofacial and odontometric perspective., can be found here. (http://knifelogic.com/AJPA_78-1CLBrace_SM.pdf)
(AJPA. 1989 Jan;78(1):93-113.)

World renown anthropologist, CL Brace, recieved his Ph.D from Harvard University in 1962. Loring Brace is currently a Professor of Anthropology at the Department of Anthropology and Curator of Biological Anthropology at the Museum of Anthropology. More. (http://www.lsa.umich.edu/anthro/facu...aff/brace.html)

Please compare to alllooksame web site.

[Color red]

Eastern, Northern, Southern Japanese has a stronger connection to Ainu and Jomon (red on the chart) ethnicity. Gene pools of central japan (yellow on the chart), in contrast, may be contributed by continental immigrants from china, korea, and south east asia. Pictures of nobles in central japan will be shown below as a comparison to the jomon/ainu related northern, southern japanese.

Central (Yayoi) Japanese

Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, Born in Central Japan (choshu)


Katsura Taro, Prime Minister, Born in Central Japan (choshu)


Yamagata Aritomo, Prime Minister of Japan, Born in Central Japan, Choshu


Please compare to the pictures of northern/southern/eastern Japanese (Jomon/Ainu).

[Iron Chef]

Hmm... that's some interesting research. I've always kind of thought to myself that most of the Japanese people I know or have had contact with could fit into about 40 fdifferent facial templates (granted i'm no academic). I've been here for almost 5 years now all together and have lived in Sapporo, Nagoya, and now Fukuoka so i've had quite a broad exposure but I can't count how many times I could have sworn I saw someone I knew or recognized only to find out they were a total stranger who just beared an uncanny resemblance heh. Anyways, interesting stuff.

[Color red]

Loring Brace has done a work on European faces too.

The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form

C. Loring Brace *, Noriko Seguchi , Conrad B. Quintyn , Sherry C. Fox ¶, A. Russell Nelson ||, Sotiris K. Manolis **, and Pan Qifeng
*Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; Department of Anthropology, University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812; Department of Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Bloomsburg, PA 17815-1301; ¶Weiner Laboratory, The American School of Classical Studies at Athens, GR-106 76 Athens, Greece; ||Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; **Faculty of Biology, National and Kapodistrian University of Athens, GR-157 81 Athens, Greece; and Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Beijing 100710, People's Republic of China

Communicated by Kent V. Flannery, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, November 11, 2005 (received for review September 20, 2005)

Many human craniofacial dimensions are largely of neutral adaptive significance, and an analysis of their variation can serve as an indication of the extent to which any given population is genetically related to or differs from any other. When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.



Please compare alllooksame.com designed by dyske.

[Goldiegirl]

Hmmm.....I found this thread interesting as I was told by just about everyone I met in Japan that my fiance did not look like a "typical" Japanese. I was told his eyes were much bigger and that his face protruded or stuck out more. I think they were trying to say he has higher cheek bones and his face isn't flat. I was suprised, but to me everyone looked different and I certainly could tell everyone apart. I was suprised at the diversity of looks...the only thing that really stuck out in my mind was all the dark hair.

[Color red]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Hmmm.....I found this thread interesting as I was told by just about everyone I met in Japan that my fiance did not look like a "typical" Japanese. I was told his eyes were much bigger and that his face protruded or stuck out more. I think they were trying to say he has higher cheek bones and his face isn't flat. I was suprised, but to me everyone looked different and I certainly could tell everyone apart. I was suprised at the diversity of looks...the only thing that really stuck out in my mind was all the dark hair.

Surely, if your eyes are used to Asian people, you shouldn't have problems to see the varieties.

Reptitions of seeing objects enfornce brains to see the differences amongst similar objects. There are really three fundamental reasons for people who cannot differentiate the distinct objects:

(1) Inherited recognition deficiencies
(2) Lower IQ, and clear lack of abilities in mental focuses
(3) Absolute indifference to the objects concerned (people sometimes calls it, racism. but you may not agree)

Nationality is really decieving, as half of japanese shares the continental origins, and about 10 percent of koreans have north asian, mongolian stocks. Therefore, I will add another factor for thinking "all look same".

(4) Annoyance of spotting wrong nationality, ethinicity. and annoyance to the political correctness.

In reality, people asserting (4) knows that it can be offensive to all of the nationalities concerned. Therefore, people tends to say, "yes, we all look same!" as opposed to "yeah, they just all look same, I can't tell them apart, they all have similar faces!", which will alleviate the offences they created by lumping all asian ethnicities.

[Please go and have a look at alllooksame.com by dyske]

[Color red]

There is a project compiling the modern chinese faces prior to the mass population influxes in East Asia in 20th century caused by Japanese and western colonization of part of china, massive immigrations of chinese to vietnam, and south east asia. We will post up both Japanese and Chinese faces to see the differences in facial looks.

Han Chinese
Name: Chen Duxiu (1879–1942), founder of Chinese Communist Party (Anhui Patriotic Association), Controversial figure as he stayed in Japan for a while. Later became Trotskyist
Birthplaces: Anhui (Central China)
Ethnicity: Han Chinese


Jomon Japanese
Togo Heihachiro, An admiral, A national hero in Japan-Russo War


Han Chinese
Name: Li Dazhao (1888-1927), Chinese intellectual who cofounded the Communist Party of China with Chen Duxiu in 1921. Studied Political Economy at Waseda University.
Ethnicity: Han Chinese


Jomon Japanese
Katsu Kaishu, Admiral of the Shogun's fleet


Please compare to alllooksame.com by dyske.

Han Chinese
Name: Wang Ming (1904-1974) a senior leader of the early Chinese Communist Party (CCP)
Birthplace: Anhui
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Lineage: Unknown


Jomon Japanese
Okubo Toshimichi, Revolutionary, A founder of Meiji Government
Born in Kagoshima, Southernmost Japan

[Goldiegirl]

I am unsure how to take your comments...so let me try to clarify myself. I never thought all Japanese looked alike just as I would never say all African- americans look alike or Irish all look alike. My point was I was told by Japanese that they thought my fiance who is Japanese did NOT look like a TYPICAL Japanese. Those weren't my sentiments and I actually did not know how to take their comments. My question back to them would have been "Do you look like a typical Japanese?", but as I was a guest I just smiled politely and figured it must be important to them if they felt the need to tell me what their opinions on my fiance's looks were. Maybe someone out on Jref could tell me why everyone thought it was important to take me aside and tell me about my fiance's looks?

[mingo]

Originally Posted by Color red

There is a project compiling the modern chinese faces prior to the mass population influxes in East Asia in 20th century caused by Japanese and western colonization of part of china, massive immigrations of chinese to vietnam, and south east asia. We will post up both Japanese and Chinese faces to see the differences in facial looks.

the dress(the time pic were taken), the background(e.g. grown near the shore or inland), the lifestyle, diet of people have a much larger influence on people, like the pics u posted, they are just early chinese communist party leaders, yes, they are definitely look like ordinary chinese.. but I was wondering do all japanese looks as handsome as these admirals in fancy dresses (if u did ur research with that altitude(select favored and discard disfavored), then I may have a doubt in the data you presented)
a few pics, it might give u a different point of view. (as you can see, mustache is quite popular at that time, just like hitler's mustache was quite popular in Japanese military during WWII)
yuan shi kai (high govenment official during Qing Dynasty, 1st president of Republic of china (1012-1916) self declared emperor of chinese empire(for 83 days)

Cao Kun
warlord
president of Republic of China 1922-1924

Xu shi chang
warlord
president of Republic of China 1918-1922

Feng Guozhang
warlord
president of Republic of China 1917-1918

Duan qirui
warlord
president of Republic of China 1924-1926

cai e
warlord

zhang zuoling
warlord


luxun (Zhou Shuren)
famous writer (studied in Japan from 1904-1909)

[Color red]

Originally Posted by mingo

the dress(the time pic were taken), the background(e.g. grown near the shore or inland), the lifestyle, diet of people have a much larger influence on people, like the pics u posted, they are just early chinese communist party leaders, yes, they are definitely look like ordinary chinese.. but I was wondering do all japanese looks as handsome as these admirals in fancy dresses (if u did ur research with that altitude(select favored and discard disfavored), then I may have a doubt in the data you presented)

Your images are quiet new to me. Those are the best contributions I have seen recently. mingo, you seem to have chinese background, since it will be tough to find those pictures for non-chinese. Whatever your point/issue is, your continuing contribution should be recognized with respect.

I will add another quote of the well-informed poster from the dead thread on other forum. This seems to be as good as your images, and perhaps, you can see some similarity in the skulls.

please compare to alllooksame.com

Originally Posted by CanalOnce

Researchers are always trying to find out what ancient people looked like. Forensic facial reconstruction offers one method. The following are two separate reconstructions of what Kennewick Man (an early American whose skull resembles those from Jomon populations) may have looked like.

Reconstruction for National Geographic



What is immediatedly noticeable are the eyes which are deep set in the skull and the nose which is fairly large. These are traits that have consistently survived in the phenotypes of widely separated groups such as the Ainu/Jomon, Moriori, South Japan, Zalavar, and Easter Island groups over long periods of time.

Modern Japanese and Jomon people are not identical. However within the modern population of Japan there are those Japanese who exhibit facial features such as deep set eyes and large noses that are also evident in Jomon skulls. About 40% (give or take a few %) of Japanese inherit at least some of their DNA from Jomon ancestors such as the Y-specific Alu insert (YAP+ chromosomes). Therefore it would be logical to assume that Jomon traits such as deep set eyes and high nose bridges are also inherited from Jomon populations. In any event these traits would tend to make the individual possessing them resemble the Jomon people to a certain extent.

Please compare to alllooksame.com

[mingo]

Originally Posted by Color red

Your images are quiet new to me. Those are the best contributions I have seen recently. mingo, you seem to have chinese background, since it will be tough to find those pictures for non-chinese. Whatever your point/issue is, your continuing contribution should be recognized with respect.
I will add another quote of the well-informed poster from the dead thread on other forum. This seems to be as good as your images, and perhaps, you can see some similarity in the skulls.
please compare to alllooksame.com
Please compare to alllooksame.com

also, most of your data is based on Average, however, Varience is a much important aspect u need to look into. e.g let's say chinese have a mean of 150, with a varience +/-30, so 95% of the chinese is around 90~210 range, on another hand, Japanese may have a mean of 180 with a varience of 20 (smaller varience due to relative homogeneous population), so 95% of Japanese is around 140~220 range.
you may use the J from 220 compare to C at lower 100 and make a really significant differerce out of it.. but to most ppl, what they were confused was the part from 140~210 in which most of chinese and japanese overlap each other, even though there are still 30 points diffenerce in average between 2 group
I can't deny that there are difference between J an C, but just a reminder, becareful with the Data you are using and the conclusion you may mislead ppl to..
e.g. a friend of mine, 100% chinese, born and raised in shanghai, spent few yrs in the states, it's really hard to tell that he look like chinese though, that's few "outlier" in our data we may encounter in our everyday life
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...1/bf342321.jpg

PS: I find the pics on WIKI

[Mrjones]

I might also add "be it joke or whatever", I also think this is very important.

[Color red]

Originally Posted by mingo

also, most of your data is based on Average, however, Varience is a much important aspect u need to look into.

No that's not how you should look at multivariate statistics. Principal component analysis is the analysis on both mean and (co-)variances. Distances clustering also do not suffer much biases due to outliers, since it's common practice to exclude the anomaly from the samples on study.
Perhaps, you can scroll cursor back to the earlier posts of mine. Craniofacial analyses are developed and researched by the two famous Harvard anthropology, Brown, and Braces. Practically, these methodologies can encompass all your concerns.

Jomon Japanese
Taisuke Itagaki

Chinese
cai e
warlord

Ainu Japanese
Ainu

Chinese
Cao Kun
warlord
president of Republic of China 1922-1924

Jomon Japanese
Minakata Kumagusu

Chinese

Please compare to alllooksame.com

Regarding the modern people's faces, I have a doubt on the idea of citing from 21st century. Shanghai is, as you know, the city practically governed by many foreign powers (including UK, Germany, France, Japan, and other western powers) for quiet a long time. Korean case is quiet similar, since they have been controlled by Japanese for many years, and intermixing rate was quiet high during the time of annexations. Japan seems to have had significant inflows from china during the difficult time of 19th century, and give refugess and modern education to knowledge thirsty chinese.

[Color red]

A few more images to illustrate the all look same

Jomon JapaneseItagaki Taisuke, politician


Chinese
Zhou Enlai, Premier of People's Republic of China


Jomon Japanese
Mutu Ryouko, wife of foreign minister


Chinese
Ruan Lingyu, actress


Jomon Japanese
Akiyama Saneyuki, admiral


Chinese
Zhu de, A founder of the Chinese Red Army


[Please compare to alllooksame.com]

[taeter_tot]

only identical twins/triplets/quandruplets ALL LOOK SAME,don't you think

[Color red]

For those unfamiliar with ancient Japanese history of Jomon and Yayoi ethnicity of Jomon People, here is a nice link to the reference.

The Emishi: What Anthropology tells us

Originally Posted by emishi-ezo.net

The author argues that the Kofun people have characteristics of both Yayoi and Jomon peoples. The Kofun skeletons are taken from both the Tohoku and Kanto, and surprisingly, they show that the Kanto Kofun types are closely matched to the Tohoku sample, though the Tohoku sample from Miyagi prefecture veers a little more towards the Jomon than the Kanto sample; however they form one group. The conclusion from this study is that the Emishi (or at least the remains of people who lived in the areas where they had lived) were related to both the Ainu and the Japanese, but were neither. We can add to this the evidence from other studies that they also lived in proximity to the Jomon, and included them in their group. Therefore, adding these two together we see for the first time the true face of the Emishi people as a group consisting of 1) Kofun and 2) Jomon people.

Originally Posted by emishi-ezo.net

What is definitely known is that to contemporary Emishi and Japanese, the Emishi were seen as one group not two. That is, contrary to a number of modern revisionist accounts, the Emishi were not seen as being composed of disparate ethnic groups in alliance with each other. One revisionist account sees Tungusic Emishi in alliance with Ainu, a total fabrication based solely upon the premise I will deal with in a later essay, that the Ainu ancestors could not have challenged the Yamato state (2002:42). Also, there is no evidence that the Emishi was a competing Japanese state that combined the Jomon people (read Ainu ancestors) who were lead by the Mononobe clan who fled the Kinai after their defeat. This theory has been totally discredited as have other similar ones. The problem is lack of evidence for these scenarios. There is only evidence that the Emishi spoke an Ainoid tongue (ultimately itself a Jomon language), and that they were one group composed of Jomon and mixed Jomon people, and were not Japanese. It is consistent with the anthropological evidence that this group’s population was changing through the close settlement of Yayoi people, but nevertheless was basically a Jomon population with pre-Japanese cultural roots.

There are some nice reading materials on this topic too.

Originally Posted by emishi-ezo.net

Farris, William Wayne. Heavenly Warriors: The Evolution of Japan’s Military: 500-1300 (Harvard University press, 1996).

Nagaoka, Osamu. Kodai Togoku Monogatari (Kadokawa Shoten, Tokyo:1986).

Niino, Naoyoshi. “Emishi kuni no Jitusuzo” in Emishi no Sekai (Yamakawa, Tokyo: 1991).

[Color red]

Originally Posted by taeter_tot

only identical twins/triplets/quandruplets ALL LOOK SAME,don't you think

That's not how "alllooksame" is meant in alllooksame.com.

[Please compare to alllooksame.com]