Today Is Pearl Harbor Day

[ArmandV]

Today marks the 65th anniversary of the surprise attack at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii by the Imperial Japanese Navy. While it will always be known as a "day of infamy," at least the attack was confined to professional warriors vs. professional warriors.

Your thoughts?

[TuskCracker]

This professional warriors. In war, winning is everything.

It is a joke to complain the other side is n-o-t fighting fair.

All is fair;
- > kill civilians who support the fighters
- > suicide bombers
- > destroy cities that are part of the enemy culture
- > suicide bombers are just another tactic
- > the enemy puts on civilian clothes and kills you while your sleeping
-> .......on and on....

[Uncle Frank]

can we blame the existence of JREF today on the attack of yesterday?

Uncle Frank

WTF?

[Duo 9]

This Jack in the Box KNOWS what he's talking about! And a democrat(no offense)! Obviously read a little Sun Tzu, have we? Well, the worst part of pearl harbor was our military not being prepared, even though we were on the brink of war. At least we pulled up our skirts and hit them back, and hard. Every last Japanese vessel that took part in the attack on Pearl Harbor was eventually sunk.

[Goldiegirl]

My Great Uncle was in the Pearl Harbor attack. He never says much about the war other than terrible things were done on both sides and that's it. I feel kind of bad that he won't talk about his experiences because once he's gone all the history that he lived will be gone forever. Then on the other hand I think maybe it's still painfull even after all those years...

Good question Uncle Frank...I wonder what the relationship between the US and Japan would be right now if Pearl Harbor had never happened.

[ArmandV]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Good question Uncle Frank...I wonder what the relationship between the US and Japan would be right now if Pearl Harbor had never happened.

We'd be running around in Japanese cars, reading manga and eating sushi.

[Goldiegirl]

Hasn't that happened already?

[ArmandV]

Originally Posted by Goldiegirl

Hasn't that happened already?

The better answer would be, "hasn't that happened anyway?"

[Goldiegirl]

very true indeed. But really, what if Japan hadn't attacked and the US didn't retaliate...then help rebuild...what would Japan be like today?

[bexchurnside]

Originally Posted by ArmandV

Today marks the 65th anniversary of the surprise attack at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii by the Imperial Japanese Navy. While it will always be known as a "day of infamy," at least the attack was confined to professional warriors vs. professional warriors.
Your thoughts?

www.hawaiithreads.com

Just as a joke, and because I have been bashing down the right wing school of thought regarding the watada case, I guess I can play devil's advocate once to play up the other side: Here it goes

Hey, I wonder if watada did what he did back during WWII, I wonder if Lt. Watada would have gotten a praise for shaking up the unquestionable obedience of the US armed forces! I mean he would have succeeded in an espionage, if he was spy! And for him being Hawaiian, you can say Perl Harbour Returns. I'm sure the No no brothers would have loved to see that!

Japanese forces have come to once again shake up the USA Armed forces!
Is there a psychic reason why Japan makes the schism involving Hawaii each time?

[Pachipro]

Originally Posted by ArmandV

We'd be running around in Japanese cars, reading manga and eating sushi.

I do that anyway!

Seriously though, the US more than likely knew the attack was coming well in advance and allowed it to happen in order to get the US into the war to help out Churchill and England against the Nazis and to revive a dead American economy.

Because of Japan's expansion into Asia, America cut off a lot of vital materials from Japan. When America cut off Japan's petroleum imports, of which they were receiving 90% from the US, Japan invaded Indochina, the nearest country, for petroleum resources. The US then seized all Japanese assets in the US and it was clear to all in government that war between the US and Japan was inevitable. Japan was against the wall, so to speak, and had to find other sources of raw materials. In a way they were duped into attacking the US who had cut off their raw materials.

America was, by and large, pacifist at the time and wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe or Asia. In 1940 a Gallup poll showed that 83% of the US public was against entering the war in Europe. Roosevelt ran on the platform and the promise to the American people that, paraphrasing here, "If I am elected, your boys will not go to war. I promise." But the US had to get in or England would've been conquered and the Nazis, Japanese, and Italians may have won the war.

Thus, Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen. A little research on the internet and books on the subject will show that with official government documents and all. That's why no US aircraft carriers were not at Pearl. Just an aging fleet that could be, and needed to be, replaced. Battleships were considered obsolete and all knew that the aircraft carriers were the way to win any war in the Pacific.

The attacking planes were sighted on radar by a couple of enlisted men, but they were told that they were US planes and to close down and go home. It's documented. Also, it is well known, and documented that the US had cracked the Japanese code.

Some other facts:

- During Pacific Navel excerises in 1932 and 1938, and with Japanese military attaches closly observing, US Navy officers theoretically destroyed Pearl Harbor both times.

- Roosevelt ordered the Pacific fleet moved to the exposed position at Pearl Harbor over the vigorous objections of Admiral Richardson, who was replaced for refusing to issue the order.

- Message to commanders at Pearl on Nov 27, 1941 stated, "Hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities cannot, repeat CANNOT, be avoided, The United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat NOT, be construed as restricting you to a course of action that might jeopardize your defense." Still the fleet remained anchored at Pearl and all aircraft were bunched together as a "security" precaution against saboteurs.

Also on November 25, 1941, Secretary of War Stimson had a conversation with Roosevelt, after which he wrote in his diary, "The question was how we should manaeuver them into the position of firing the first shot without too much danger to ourselves...It was desirable to make sure the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in anyone's mind as to who were the aggressors."

And finally, the most damning evidence yet of Roosevelts foreknowledge of the attack came from the 1948 interrogation of Germany's Gestapo chief Heinrich Mueller. In a 1995 book by Gregory Douglas based on previously secret files, Mueller stated that on November 26, 1941, the Germans in Holland had intercepted a private trans-Atlantic telephone conversation between Roosevelt and Churchill.

Churchill informed Roosevelt of the movements of the missing Japanese fleet and stated, "I can assure you that their goal is the (conversation broken) fleet in Hawaii, at Pearl Harbor."

"This is monstrous," exclaimed Roosevelt. "Can you tell me...indicate...the nature of your intelligence?" "Reliable," answered Churchill, who mentioned agents within the Japanese military and foreign service as well as their broken code.

"The obvious implication is that the Japs are going to do a Port Arthur on us at Pearl Harbor. Do you concur?" asked Roosevelt. Churchill replied, "I do indeed unless they add an attack on the Panama Canal to this vile business." (The Japanese launched a surprise torpedo attack against Port Arthur, today called Pinyun Lu-shun on China's Liaodong Penninsula, a Russian Port, that began the 1904-05 Russo-Japanese War.

Roosevelt then said, "I will have to consider the entire problem...A Japanese attack on us, which would result in war between-and certainly you as well-would certainly fulfill two of the most important requirements of our policy." Roosevelt speaks about absenting himself from the White House on some pretext, adding, "What I don't know, can't hurt me and I cannot understand messages at a distance."

Addressing the unlikely position that US military officers would have knowingly allowed American units to be attacked, author Douglas explained, "The warning did not come to Roosevelt from below but on a parallel level from a foreign intelligence source which was far better equipped to decode and translate the Japanese transmissions."

And, after Pearl was attacked, American men rushed in droves to sign up for the military and pacifist America entered the war and the US economy, as a result, became one of the strongest and richest in the world.

Sources: Rule By Secrecy, by Jim Marrs, Internet, declassified documents, and TV documentaries.

Some rare pics of that fateful day (notice how close the planes were):

Attachment 5266 Attachment 5263Attachment 5264Attachment 5265

[ArmandV]

I recently watched a documentary on whether or not FDR knew in advance about the Japanese plans for Pearl Harbor. Much of what you wrote was covered but it did indicate that FDR wanted the U.S. to get involved in the war in Eurpope, but not in the Pacific.

[duckman]

And after the attack, the manhattan project begins and the results of that was the dstruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or i´m wrong?
even today the people who survived have problems because of the pollution of that atomic bomb.....

[nurizeko]

Its amazing how such a pure tactical suprise over an opposing force effected the course of recent history so much.

At the heart it was merely one navy catching another completely off guard and taking full advantage of it (though they shoulda went for a third wave....what a pointless waste "We've lost the element of suprise" and what? what are the Americans going to do?, throw the wreckage of their planes and guns at you and hope it hits you in the eye?) but in the winder picture it caused America to fully enter the war, it partway cost hitler his grand Reich (though the soviets were gonna drop him anyway, Europes history would have been different without the US involvement) it cost Japan all offensive military might, caused Japan to be the one and only victim of Atomic bombing, and perhaps did drive Japans economy to the powerhouse it is. It also effected America, because America entered the war it became an economic, military and political giant, and thanks to the disturbing ideology of some enemies, gave America this idea it was the worlds policeman, ontop of the manifest destiny making America think it was above everything else, its essentially led to things being where they are today.

I dont dig people who dig into the Japanese attack though, if anyone is at fault for the attack, its the higher ups who ignore the warning signs, oh and the idiots at that new radar station (radar being new) who ignored the blips or dots or whatever heading for the islands.

Yeah sucks, people died, war is hell and all that, at the end of the day it was one proffessional fighting force exploiting a weakness to defeat another (even if it was probably poorly considored, since it didnt actually defeat the enemy and lead to an otherwise avoidable unwinable conflict).

As for the Japanese motives "It was an un-provoked cold blooded slaughter" and such, I've heard such statements as it being because America was threatening supply of resources to japan, namely Oil, now, we live in a world where America has invaded a country for oil (It wasnt the only motive, but its a primary one, and anyone who denies it is, well, in denial) its not really then fair to slander a nation for carrying out a military assault on a military target because another nation threatens the supply of a resource that is considored vital to the former nations survival and continued functionality.

If Iran threatened (somehow) to deny the US oil, and perhaps even other resources, no-one in America would bat an eyelid if the president declared war.


An interesting note in history, for its effect on the way the world went round afterwards.
But famous for being some kind of massacre or atrocity?....hardly. Though I guess if you were on the receiving end, you'd be somewhat sour, their energies would have been better spent on the higher-ups who allowed such a security blunder to occur.

The US military allowed a large force of enemy aircraft to breach its airspace....German bombers couldnt get out of France, let alone into Britain, without someone on our side noticing it, it was human error, command incompetence, Lapse in diligence.